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KiloLee
01-25-2012, 09:25
I was pulled over on the way to a service call (Roadside assistance), 4 seperate violations:

-Speeding (5 over)
-No seatbelt (Automatic shoulder-belt with seperate lap-belt)

-Improper exhaust (Not my car)
-Altered suspension (Not my car)

Luckily, I was released from all 4 citations, due to it being someone else's vehicle, and because of the helpful nature and reputation of my company.

Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

Moderator Note: This was moved from the Open Carry Stories sticky for discussion.

Oramac
01-25-2012, 16:31
The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

He blatantly lied to your face. Depending on your state, having a CHP will not prevent that situation in the slightest, since some states require you to inform the officer and even if they don't, it's usually a good idea to do so. I've had it happen to me a couple times here in Missouri myself.

SouthernBoyVA
01-25-2012, 20:59
I was pulled over on the way to a service call (Roadside assistance), 4 seperate violations:

-Speeding (5 over)
-No seatbelt (Automatic shoulder-belt with seperate lap-belt)

-Improper exhaust (Not my car)
-Altered suspension (Not my car)

Luckily, I was released from all 4 citations, due to it being someone else's vehicle, and because of the helpful nature and reputation of my company.

Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

What was he doing taking your gun from you in the first place? You might want to consider a complaint to his superiors about this.

SouthernBoyVA
01-25-2012, 21:02
He blatantly lied to your face. Depending on your state, having a CHP will not prevent that situation in the slightest, since some states require you to inform the officer and even if they don't, it's usually a good idea to do so. I've had it happen to me a couple times here in Missouri myself.

There is no duty to inform in Virginia whether or not one chooses to do this is entirely up to them. Also, if he was carrying on his person openly (as I suspect he was as this is a open carry thread) the officer has no reason to take possession of his firearm. Open carry in Virginia is the default (normal/standard) method of carry. Carrying concealed is the exception.

G19Dep
01-25-2012, 22:19
I was pulled over on the way to a service call (Roadside assistance), 4 seperate violations:

-Speeding (5 over)
-No seatbelt (Automatic shoulder-belt with seperate lap-belt)

-Improper exhaust (Not my car)
-Altered suspension (Not my car)

Luckily, I was released from all 4 citations, due to it being someone else's vehicle, and because of the helpful nature and reputation of my company.

Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

He should have never touched your firearm NOR should he have started to unload your mags, he acted outside of the authority of his badge. Weather you agree with what he did or not you need to call his supervisors and advise them as to what he did. That's piss poor on his part a LEO in VA should know better.

And to keep things on topic I OC'd to breakfast , and then to the autoparts store today, had one odd look from a little old lady at breakfast i just smiled at her and enjoyed my coffee.

KiloLee
01-29-2012, 07:07
What was he doing taking your gun from you in the first place? You might want to consider a complaint to his superiors about this.

He should have never touched your firearm NOR should he have started to unload your mags, he acted outside of the authority of his badge. Weather you agree with what he did or not you need to call his supervisors and advise them as to what he did. That's piss poor on his part a LEO in VA should know better.

Anybody care to PM me with more VA-specific info on OC'ing and traffic stops?
I'm pretty good with keeping track of the laws, but I've never been able to really find anything more than "OC is allowed." I've firmly been under the impression that I MUST inform of carry.

RussP
01-29-2012, 07:47
Anybody care to PM me with more VA-specific info on OC'ing and traffic stops?
I'm pretty good with keeping track of the laws, but I've never been able to really find anything more than "OC is allowed." I've firmly been under the impression that I MUST inform of carry.There is no duty to inform in Virginia.

OC is not "allowed". Open Carry is simply "not prohibited by law." There is no law about open carry, the law is silent. That which is not prohibited by law is legal.

Bruce M
01-29-2012, 08:18
What was he doing taking your gun from you in the first place? You might want to consider a complaint to his superiors about this.

He should have never touched your firearm NOR should he have started to unload your mags, he acted outside of the authority of his badge. Weather you agree with what he did or not you need to call his supervisors and advise them as to what he did. That's piss poor on his part a LEO in VA should know better.

.


In Virginia an officer cannot disarm a driver during a traffic stop?

RussP
01-29-2012, 08:23
In Virginia an officer cannot disarm a driver during a traffic stop?I believe those are personal, not legal, opinions.

Bruce M
01-29-2012, 08:32
Ahhh, that's sort of what I thought.

Jagged
01-29-2012, 14:35
Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

Moderator Note: This was moved from the Open Carry Stories sticky for discussion.

Well, he is partially right. In VA you cannot have a loaded magazine with more than 20 rounds in certain public areas, unless you have a CHP...

packsaddle
01-29-2012, 14:54
He should have never touched your firearm NOR should he have started to unload your mags, he acted outside of the authority of his badge.


http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll384/packsaddle_2008/wait.jpg

RussP
01-29-2012, 15:12
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.Well, he is partially right. In VA you cannot have a loaded magazine with more than 20 rounds in certain public areas, unless you have a CHP...KiloLee, what mag did you have in your G17?

toddmog
01-29-2012, 16:16
In Virginia an officer cannot disarm a driver during a traffic stop?

Right or wrong, a lot can be done in the name of officer safety. I personally would never disarm someone unless they gave me good reason to. Speeding and exhaust issues aren't good reasons in my book.

KiloLee, what mag did you have in your G17?

Factory mag with factory +2 extension would be my guess.

KiloLee
01-29-2012, 17:44
KiloLee, what mag did you have in your G17?


Factory mag with factory +2 extension would be my guess.

Correct, with an additional round in the chamber. Also with an extra factory 17 magazine.

kensteele
01-29-2012, 18:10
In pretty much any state in this country, if the officer asks if he can remove your weapon and you say OK, it will happen and you have zero recourse.

In pretty much any state in this country, if the officer asks to remove your magazine and count your rounds and you say OK, it will happen and you have zero recourse.

If you waive your rights, you cannot complain and you cannot sue. A police officer can ask and a citizen can waive, in every state.

Did he ask? Did you consent?

Here comes my opinion: If he started to do these things without asking and you said nothing about it, you probably don't have much to go on. I believe you can simply say "I don't consent to...." and just leave it at that.

Edit: I understand in some states and in some situations, the gun owner doesn't have a choice and the officer doesn't need consent.

larry_minn
01-29-2012, 18:12
As far as I know. Nationwide Police do have the authority to disarm folks they stop. I would contact staion about him removing rds in mag (in MN) Now IF there is a law against 20 rd mags/you had one... Be THANKFUL he did NOT charge you with anything.
While I think Officers who disarm folks who inform them.... Well it does not make the most sense.

josey88
01-29-2012, 18:23
Well, if I am permitted to post my humble opinion , so in VA it is allowed to open carry as long as you don`t have a 20 rd magazine on the gun ... so a 17 rds mag is ok ...( ? ) What a well thought out law...
I am glad I live in Florida !!!

Jagged
01-29-2012, 18:34
Well, if I am permitted to post my humble opinion , so in VA it is allowed to open carry as long as you don`t have a 20 rd magazine on the gun ... so a 17 rds mag is ok ...( ? ) What a well thought out law...
I am glad I live in Florida !!!

Yeah it's a bit silly. One of the things the VCDL is working on.

But also keep in mind that anyone 18 years of age or older may open carry anything (with a magazine <= 20 rounds) just about anywhere in the Commonwealth...

Loaded rifles and shotguns OTOH, tend to get regulated by counties and towns as we haven't established state preemption of them yet. This largely stems from hunting regulations. Local governments are required to submit to the VDGIF any changes in such laws so that the VDGIF may publish all the various rules and regulations.

I used to think that I couldn't carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in my vehicle, but after further research, it was just a handful of counties that I'll never be in. Now during hunting season, I just keep my gear in the trunk of my car (or behind the seat of my pickup) in condition 3.

lslubecki
01-29-2012, 18:51
Pertaining to CCW in ohio if the officer asks for you gun you must give it to him. If you did nothing illegal he must return it to you after the stop.

RussP
01-29-2012, 18:52
KiloLee, what mag did you have in your G17?

Factory mag with factory +2 extension would be my guess.Correct, with an additional round in the chamber. Also with an extra factory 17 magazine.You're good to go with the 19 round mag capacity...ァ 18.2-287.4. Carrying Loaded Firearms in Public Areas Prohibited; Penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in ァ 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

Bruce M
01-29-2012, 19:20
Right or wrong, a lot can be done in the name of officer safety. I personally would never disarm someone unless they gave me good reason to. Speeding and exhaust issues aren't good reasons in my book.



.

With the twenty round prohibition, perhaps the reason was investigation to determine whether or not there was a crime. That would of course also explain the emptying of the magazine, which was the part of the stop that I initially found perplexing.

DaneA
01-29-2012, 19:30
I'm still stuck on the pulling over for going 5 over the limit. And what's with the altered suspension citation? Not heard of that before?

Other than that sounds like you had a positive experience.

Jagged
01-29-2012, 19:32
I'm still stuck on the pulling over for going 5 over the limit. And what's with the altered suspension citation? Not heard of that before?

Other than that sounds like you had a positive experience.

VA has an annual safety inspection that all vehicles tagged in the Commonwealth must comply with. LEOs may issue summonses for anything that violates the code with regards to the safety inspection.

ckrockets
01-29-2012, 19:54
Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.


:freak:

pizza_pablo
01-29-2012, 21:42
ァ 18.2-287.4. Carrying Loaded Firearms in Public Areas Prohibited; Penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in ァ 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

Am I comprehending this, right?
If you have a CHP, you can have a folding stock, but if you don't you can't? :dunno:

toddmog
01-29-2012, 23:21
With the twenty round prohibition, perhaps the reason was investigation to determine whether or not there was a crime. That would of course also explain the emptying of the magazine, which was the part of the stop that I initially found perplexing.

I would imagine so. Given that a lot of cops aren't gun guys/girls they may not be familiar with the particular weapon being carried. It's likely they saw an extended magazine and questioned the capacity because of that.

SpringerTGO
01-30-2012, 08:46
I'm still trying to figure this out.
The OP was speeding in a car with a loud exhaust, obviously bad (either lifted or lowered) suspension, and no seatbelt. The officer disarmed him while sorting through the infractions and registration.
The officer let him off.
And people are upset because of the way the handgun was handled?

josey88
01-30-2012, 10:29
I am also thinking that this cop stopped the OP for a "5 mile over the limit" infraction ... That and the unloading of the magazine is proyecting the image of one of those extremist cops that would stop you for a couple of miles over the limit . Here in Florida they would not bother you unless you are 13 to 15 miles over the limit ... 5 miles over can be atributed to anything , since oversize tires to speedometer out of calibration , etc etc ...

Mister_Beefy
01-30-2012, 14:08
I'm still trying to figure this out.
The OP was speeding in a car with a loud exhaust, obviously bad (either lifted or lowered) suspension, and no seatbelt. The officer disarmed him while sorting through the infractions and registration.
The officer let him off.
And people are upset because of the way the handgun was handled?


yup.

there was no reason for the officer to touch the firearm or unload it's magazine.

he was just being a jerk, as some LEOs are wont to do.

RussP
01-30-2012, 14:22
Am I comprehending this, right?
If you have a CHP, you can have a folding stock, but if you don't you can't? :dunno:Correct...

RussP
01-30-2012, 14:40
I was pulled over on the way to a service call (Roadside assistance), 4 seperate violations:

-Speeding (5 over)
-No seatbelt (Automatic shoulder-belt with seperate lap-belt)

-Improper exhaust (Not my car)
-Altered suspension (Not my car)

Luckily, I was released from all 4 citations, due to it being someone else's vehicle, and because of the helpful nature and reputation of my company.

Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

Moderator Note: This was moved from the Open Carry Stories sticky for discussion.KiloLee, in the interest of having all the facts before drawing conclusions about how the pistol was handled, what agency pulled you over?

Where did they pull you over - what city or county?

Now, what was the speed limit where you were stopped?

Was the road 2-lane, 4-lane, limited access, I-95, I-64, 295, 288, Powhite, Chippenham?

Thanks, the answers are important for a complete understanding of the event.

RussP
01-30-2012, 14:48
yup.

there was no reason for the officer to touch the firearm or unload it's magazine.

he was just being a jerk, as some LEOs are wont to do.Did you read the Virginia code about magazines with a capacity of more than 20-rounds?

Don't you agree there are a few additional facts needed before passing judgement?

SpringerTGO
01-30-2012, 15:19
Did you read the Virginia code about magazines with a capacity of more than 20-rounds?

Don't you agree there are a few additional facts needed before passing judgement?

+1

If the officer "was just being a jerk", why didn't he write any citations?

Mister_Beefy
01-30-2012, 15:24
Did you read the Virginia code about magazines with a capacity of more than 20-rounds?

Don't you agree there are a few additional facts needed before passing judgement?


yes I read the virginia code about magazines with a capacity of more than 20 rounds.

no, I do not agree that there are more additional facts needed before passing judgment.

was a law broken? did he have more than 20 rounds in the magazine?

no and no.

was there any pertinent officer safety issue that would require him to unload the firearm.?

I do not think so.

But then, I wasn't there. maybe pizza_pablo just had a look in his eye that made the officer uneasy. Or, maybe the officer is on the ragged edge, one good scare away from a breakdown. Either could be true, and there are countless possibilities.

Including the possibility that he was just being a jerk.

Mister_Beefy
01-30-2012, 15:27
+1

If the officer "was just being a jerk", why didn't he write any citations?


If the car had belonged to OP, he probably would have.

kensteele
01-30-2012, 15:40
I'm still trying to figure this out.
The OP was speeding in a car with a loud exhaust, obviously bad (either lifted or lowered) suspension, and no seatbelt. The officer disarmed him while sorting through the infractions and registration.
The officer let him off.
And people are upset because of the way the handgun was handled?

Some reason you can't accomplish all that without disarming the driver? If the driver has to get out and there is a walk-around and maybe the officer has to call out another officer while waiting or [fill in other valid reason here], sure, secure the weapon for officer safety while there is a big drawn out scenario. But you don't need to touch a firearm to simply write tickets. Sort out the infractions and registration without doing a weapon's check unless for some reason you cannot or choose not to. I'm pretty sure he's done it many times with guns that are unannounced....maybe that why some of us in some states choose to have our tickets written w/o a weapon's check. Hopefully the mag capacity law is not a catch-all to justify taking a look at any weapon that you don't recognise or appears "questionable."

kahrguy
01-30-2012, 16:14
Plain and simple, a citizens don't have to hand over their firearms without any probable cause.
Unconstitutional breach of a citizen's Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure?
Simply asked, can law enforcement take a person's legally carried firearm without any probable cause that a crime is being committed?

SpringerTGO
01-30-2012, 16:23
If the car had belonged to OP, he probably would have.

So you can assume the officer would have done something, but give the benefit of the doubt to the person speeding?

Seems a little one sided to me.

MikeLadner
01-30-2012, 16:25
If I stop you and you have a weapon, and those little hairs on the back of my neck stand up, for any reason, I'll disarm you. If it hurts your feelings, or makes you mad, sad, etc... well, that's just tough. Call my supervisor, or the Chief, or the Mayor, say a prayer to God, whine about it on the internet, etc... I'll survive, with a well-articulated reason as to why I disarmed you.
That being said, I've only done that once in 10 years. It'll happen again at some point. It'll be a thug, or a CCW permit holder, or just some random person with a gun in the car (which is legal in MS)... if I think you need to be disarmed, you'll be disarmed.

RussP
01-30-2012, 16:25
-Improper exhaust (Not my car)
-Altered suspension (Not my car)

Luckily, I was released from all 4 citations, due to it being someone else's vehicle, and because of the helpful nature and reputation of my company.More questions, again to provide information to persons quick to form opinions without knowing all the facts.

Whose car was it? Why were you using it?

And again thank you for the details.

RussP
01-30-2012, 16:31
+1

If the officer "was just being a jerk", why didn't he write any citations?If the car had belonged to OP, he probably would have.So you can assume the officer would have done something, but give the benefit of the doubt to the person speeding?

Seems a little one sided to me.Well, that's why I've asked the OP for more facts, to get as many sides of the story as possible.

frostamp
01-30-2012, 16:34
Pertaining to CCW in ohio if the officer asks for you gun you must give it to him. If you did nothing illegal he must return it to you after the stop.

If I am ever asked by an Ohio cop to give him my gun.

I'm sure to be clear exactly how that will take place.
Explain every movement prior to doing it.
Don't need one behind the ear, especially if I'm anywhere near Canton:shocked:


edited for punctuation

kensteele
01-30-2012, 16:40
Plain and simple, a citizens don't have to hand over their firearms without any probable cause.
Unconstitutional breach of a citizen's Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure?
Simply asked, can law enforcement take a person's legally carried firearm without any probable cause that a crime is being committed?

I think some permit holders have a clause in their [state] contract where they have agreed to allow an officer to disarm them upon request. In other cases, an officer can disarm anyone if they can articulate safety reasons.

To me, it is disingenous to force someone to declare a firearm and then disarm them solely as a result of the declaration. It's like we used to hear about the excuse in MO, show the officer your state permit and you automatically consent to a search (presumably, for that weapon) nonsense.

kensteele
01-30-2012, 16:42
If I am ever asked by an Ohio cop to give him my gun.

I'm sure to be clear exactly how that will take place.
Explain every movement prior to doing it.
Don't need one behind the ear, especially if I'm anywhere near Canton:shocked:


edited for punctuation

Both times I have been disarmed, the officer removed the weapon. I don't intend to be on anyone's video tape holding a firearm at a traffic stop with police present. If he wants my weapon (despite my objections), he'll have to do the disarming. I can't imagine a statute compelling the gun owner to handle his [loaded] weapon, to me that doesn't make sense.

larry_minn
01-30-2012, 16:45
Plain and simple, a citizens don't have to hand over their firearms without any probable cause.
Unconstitutional breach of a citizen's Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure?
Simply asked, can law enforcement take a person's legally carried firearm without any probable cause that a crime is being committed?

WRONGWRONG If a uniformed Officer (or even showing a badge that a reasonable person would believe is valid.) Orders you to hand over your gun the ONLY proper response is. "How would you like me to do that?"
There does not have to be Probably because, or reasonably suspeciousesness.
They do have to give it back. If you feel they did it wrong PLEASE go to station/supervisor and complain. (I would) but AFTER the stop is over.

Bruce M
01-30-2012, 16:47
Plain and simple, a citizens don't have to hand over their firearms without any probable cause.
Unconstitutional breach of a citizen's Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure?
Simply asked, can law enforcement take a person's legally carried firearm without any probable cause that a crime is being committed?


Plain and simple, that is something that you probably read on the internet. My guess is that in about all fifty states, the officer could remove the gun from the driver or others in the vehicle for the duration of the traffic stop. And I would further guess that there would be very little chance of that as a complaint getting anywhere either within the department or in a court, if the gun was returned at the end of the traffic stop.


And not withstanding all the venom toward the officer here, it seems the original poster said something to the effect of "good man" when describing the officer in his post. I did not detect any sarcasm in that description. But I admit I don't get out much. Maybe it was because he was advised of four different traffic violations, but not cited. And while I am not certain how traffic laws apply in Virginia, I know here as a virtual certainty that equipment violations of the vehicle are the responsibility of the driver whether or not he is the owner.

kensteele
01-30-2012, 16:50
...I know here as a virtual certainty that equipment violations of the vehicle are the responsibility of the driver whether or not he is the owner.

Like parking tickets? :supergrin:

Bruce M
01-30-2012, 17:18
Like parking tickets? :supergrin:


Great point! Probably not. Unless you happen to be a rental car company and have the credit card number of the driver... (sorry to stray so far off)

frostamp
01-30-2012, 17:31
Both times I have been disarmed, the officer removed the weapon. I don't intend to be on anyone's video tape holding a firearm at a traffic stop with police present. If he wants my weapon (despite my objections), he'll have to do the disarming. I can't imagine a statute compelling the gun owner to handle his [loaded] weapon, to me that doesn't make sense.

I would be nervous about some rook putting a Ranger T through my thigh.
sticky wicket either way

Mister_Beefy
01-30-2012, 20:44
So you can assume the officer would have done something, but give the benefit of the doubt to the person speeding?

Seems a little one sided to me.


I'm not giving the benefit of anything to anyone.

All I'm saying is disarming a lawful open carrier and unloading his firearm to count the rounds to make sure it was legal was, in my opinion, a jerk move.

since the car wasn't OP's, and the officer didn't get to write all the tickets he was imagining when he hit his lights, he started to look of anything to catch him on. like the number of rounds in his magazine.

as MikeLadner pointed out, officer safety > everything else (including all laws up to and including the constitution... ha, I can make convoluted assumptions about what posters are thinking too!)

if he really felt unsafe, he would have disamed him and out the gun on the roof of the car or something. he might have even removed the magazine and cleared the chamber.

but unloading every round? yeah.. jerk move and/or fishing.

and you can not deny that there are LEOs out there (and here too) that don't like open carry, and try to discourage it through hassling and intimidation.

(and calling people names on the internet.)

KiloLee
01-31-2012, 00:24
With the twenty round prohibition, perhaps the reason was investigation to determine whether or not there was a crime. That would of course also explain the emptying of the magazine, which was the part of the stop that I initially found perplexing.

That's what I've been thinking. I obviously didn't present or notify him of any permits, so I suppose he saw the extended magazine and got curious. I've been well aware of the non-permit 20rd limit, so I knew I was safe there. I do stay at 20 rounds with my carry setup.

I'm still stuck on the pulling over for going 5 over the limit. And what's with the altered suspension citation? Not heard of that before?

Other than that sounds like you had a positive experience.

Here lately, local LEOs have been pretty strict it seems. In VA, you're not allowed to raise or lower your vehicle too much . In this case, I was in a '93 Acura Integra, which is actually sitting on factory style springs and shocks, though they are barely beginning to sag due to age and wear. That would save me from an "Altered suspension" ticket, but would land me into a "Defective equipment" ticket. Your bumper can be no lower than 14 inches from the ground. (Which is BS, because the car can't possibly be that HIGH up anyway, even in mint factory condition!) My car has a front lip-kit, but only adds an extra inch or two to the bottom of the bumper, but it still sits at about 8 inches from the ground.)

Getting 4 citations cleared? Positive indeed, haha! :whistling:

KiloLee, in the interest of having all the facts before drawing conclusions about how the pistol was handled, what agency pulled you over?

Henrico motorcylcle officer, via "radar gun".

Where did they pull you over - what city or county?

Henrico County, lol. On Darbytown, not far from the Williamsburg Rd intersection. I pulled into the parking lot of a small eatery in the area there.

Now, what was the speed limit where you were stopped?

40, which I had no way of know, being that I entered that road, past the speed limit sign. I later confirmed, though.

Was the road 2-lane, 4-lane, limited access, I-95, I-64, 295, 288, Powhite, Chippenham?

2-lane; 1 in each direction.

Thanks, the answers are important for a complete understanding of the event.

More questions, again to provide information to persons quick to form opinions without knowing all the facts.

Whose car was it? Why were you using it? It was my little brother's car, using it for work while my car is (hopelessly) awaiting repair.

And again thank you for the details.



I wil say, I have no problem "giving up my rights" by allowing the officer to check my weapon. He could have indeed been fishing, but I was/am quite confident in my knowledge of local laws and carry procedures. I did NOT know I had a choice to allow a "seizure" of my weapon, but I will continue to allow a simple check if the circumstances are to my liking. (as noticed in my earlier, unrelated posts...I seem to have far different views on things than everyone else.) Besides, if I was going to keep everything going smoothly....I was going to allow him a bit of satisfaction to not get 4 tickets. Small sacrifice. I did say in my OP that I was a little worried about him checking my ammo count, but I think it was more just being generally nervous than anything. (My first stop while carrying.) I'm still very confident that I MUST inform the police of carrying (I'm sure I read that somewhere), so I will continue to do so. No need to take a risk out of plain ignorance on my behalf, right?

mdsn969
01-31-2012, 00:29
There is no duty to inform in Virginia whether or not one chooses to do this is entirely up to them. Also, if he was carrying on his person openly (as I suspect he was as this is a open carry thread) the officer has no reason to take possession of his firearm. Open carry in Virginia is the default (normal/standard) method of carry. Carrying concealed is the exception.

Open carry is quite legal here in Wisconsin as well and under Wisconsin law a police officer has every right to take possession of the weapon. I would fully expect them too particularly in a situation where the person did not have CCW.

Unloading the mag was odd however...

KiloLee
01-31-2012, 00:38
I will also say that I'm not sure I can properly put EXACTLY what I mean into text form. Some things are better spoken than spelled out.

I don't mind....elaborating, if needed.

id1otbox
01-31-2012, 00:48
extended magazine? If you are not familiar with glocks does it obviously look extended? I don't think so.

In the end I think a LEO can swing it however they want and make it "legal"

RussP
01-31-2012, 05:12
I asked KiloLee which jurisdiction. KiloLee, in the interest of having all the facts before drawing conclusions about how the pistol was handled, what agency pulled you over?

Henrico motorcylcle officer, via "radar gun".Where did they pull you over - what city or county?Henrico County, lol. On Darbytown, not far from the Williamsburg Rd intersection. I pulled into the parking lot of a small eatery in the area there.
Again, here is the law about over 20 round capacity mags:ァ 18.2-287.4. Carrying Loaded Firearms in Public Areas Prohibited; Penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in ァ 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.The law includes Henrico, so the officer was right in determining the round count. If it had been outside the boundaries of Henrico and Richmond, the officer would have been wrong counting rounds.

RussP
01-31-2012, 06:22
With the twenty round prohibition, perhaps the reason was investigation to determine whether or not there was a crime. That would of course also explain the emptying of the magazine, which was the part of the stop that I initially found perplexing.That's what I've been thinking. I obviously didn't present or notify him of any permits, so I suppose he saw the extended magazine and got curious. I've been well aware of the non-permit 20rd limit, so I knew I was safe there. I do stay at 20 rounds with my carry setup.Good.I'm still stuck on the pulling over for going 5 over the limit. And what's with the altered suspension citation? Not heard of that before?

Other than that sounds like you had a positive experience.Here lately, local LEOs have been pretty strict it seems. In VA, you're not allowed to raise or lower your vehicle too much . In this case, I was in a '93 Acura Integra, which is actually sitting on factory style springs and shocks, though they are barely beginning to sag due to age and wear. That would save me from an "Altered suspension" ticket, but would land me into a "Defective equipment" ticket. Your bumper can be no lower than 14 inches from the ground. (Which is BS, because the car can't possibly be that HIGH up anyway, even in mint factory condition!) My car has a front lip-kit, but only adds an extra inch or two to the bottom of the bumper, but it still sits at about 8 inches from the ground.)

Getting 4 citations cleared? Positive indeed, haha! :whistling:KiloLee provided more facts surrounding the stop.Where did they pull you over - what city or county?Henrico County, lol. On Darbytown, not far from the Williamsburg Rd intersection. I pulled into the parking lot of a small eatery in the area there.Now, what was the speed limit where you were stopped?40, which I had no way of know, being that I entered that road, past the speed limit sign. I later confirmed, though.Was the road 2-lane, 4-lane, limited access, I-95, I-64, 295, 288, Powhite, Chippenham? 2-lane; 1 in each direction.Thanks, the answers are important for a complete understanding of the event.Okay, KiloLee was doing 45 in a 40MPH zone on a two lane road in an older residential neighborhood with direct driveway ingress/egress access onto the road (Yeah, I know the area). I doubt though that speed was the initial sole deciding factor for the stop. The combination of the sound of the exhaust, the low suspension, and the speed, well, I believe that combo caused the stop. 45 on that road is not that unusual.More questions, again to provide information to persons quick to form opinions without knowing all the facts.Whose car was it? Why were you using it? It was my little brother's car, using it for work while my car is (hopelessly) awaiting repair.Did you by chance have any choice thoughts and words you expressed to the officer about your little brother? :supergrin:

Again, thank you for the details.

RussP
01-31-2012, 06:37
I wil say, I have no problem "giving up my rights" by allowing the officer to check my weapon. He could have indeed been fishing, but I was/am quite confident in my knowledge of local laws and carry procedures.Your knowledge of the law paid off.

Did you tell the officer there were only 19 rounds in the mag and that was the maximum capacity for that magazine plus extension? I did NOT know I had a choice to allow a "seizure" of my weapon,While you may decline the seizure, you may, or you may not, it depends, create a whole bunch of trouble for yourself if you resist the seizure of your weapon. I'll invite those in law enforcement to explain.I will continue to allow a simple check if the circumstances are to my liking. (as noticed in my earlier, unrelated posts...I seem to have far different views on things than everyone else.) Each person carrying has the right to make whatever decisions they believe are right for them. They just need to understand positive and negative consequences that could result and be willing to accept them.Besides, if I was going to keep everything going smoothly....I was going to allow him a bit of satisfaction to not get 4 tickets. Small sacrifice.Compromise...:thumbsup:I did say in my OP that I was a little worried about him checking my ammo count, but I think it was more just being generally nervous than anything. (My first stop while carrying.) That nervousness might have come across to him, too.I'm still very confident that I MUST inform the police of carrying (I'm sure I read that somewhere), so I will continue to do so. No need to take a risk out of plain ignorance on my behalf, right?No, you do not have to initially inform in Virginia. Whether to do so or not is your choice.

RussP
01-31-2012, 07:15
KiloLee, which Magazine extension is on your pistol?extended magazine? If you are not familiar with glocks does it obviously look extended? I don't think so.

In the end I think a LEO can swing it however they want and make it "legal"id1otbox, which grip extension are you talking about?

Here is the Pearce Grip PG-GP on a Glock 23...

http://www.pearcegrip.com/image/7/PG-GP_1

RussP
01-31-2012, 07:36
All I'm saying is disarming a lawful open carrier and unloading his firearm to count the rounds to make sure it was legal was, in my opinion, a jerk move.Did the officer do anything illegal? Unlawful?since the car wasn't OP's, and the officer didn't get to write all the tickets he was imagining when he hit his lights,Why do you say that? Do you believe he could not write the tickets because the operator was not the registered owner? You are incorrect.he started to look of anything to catch him on. like the number of rounds in his magazine.How about asking KiloLee about the sequence of events. Did the officer excuse the violations and then count rounds? Why don't you ask him...as MikeLadner pointed out, officer safety > everything else (including all laws up to and including the constitution... ha, I can make convoluted assumptions about what posters are thinking too!)Yes, we know...if he really felt unsafe, he would have disamed him and out the gun on the roof of the car or something. he might have even removed the magazine and cleared the chamber.

but unloading every round? yeah.. jerk move and/or fishing.See, here you are totally dismissing the Virginia law which makes it unlawful to carry a pistol with a magazine having a capacity greater than 20 rounds in the County of Henrico. We may all believe that law is wrong and should be repealed, but, for now, it is the law.and you can not deny that there are LEOs out there (and here too) that don't like open carry, and try to discourage it through hassling and intimidation.Yes, there are some, but in my 7 years open carrying in Henrico around dozens of HPD officers, I never met on of them. This officer was not one either.

According to KiloLee, the officer advised him that he should obtain his CHP to "avoid this stuff later". I take that to mean the round count law. It sounds like reasonable advice to me, but, then again, I live here and have to deal with the few stupid handgun laws we have on the books, so I just might better understand the circumstances.

Bruce M
01-31-2012, 10:58
Since there are these http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=161&CAT=36 it appears that there are extensions that could put the magazine over the twenty rounds. Since I have only seen these on line, I might have to examine a magazine before I knew for sure if it was 19 or 23 rounds.

RussP
01-31-2012, 11:03
Since there are these http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=161&CAT=36 it appears that there are extensions that could put the magazine over the twenty rounds. Since I have only seen these on line, I might have to examine a magazine before I knew for sure if it was 19 or 23 rounds.Those would definitely indicate possible increased capacity.

id1otbox
01-31-2012, 15:11
KiloLee, which Magazine extension is on your pistol?id1otbox, which grip extension are you talking about?

Here is the Pearce Grip PG-GP on a Glock 23...

http://www.pearcegrip.com/image/7/PG-GP_1

Any grip extension. If I saw the one above I would not assume it is illegal. How many more rounds can that inch give it? I still do not believe that is obviously extended. Again assuming there is no knowledge about glocks

id1otbox
01-31-2012, 15:12
Since there are these http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=161&CAT=36 it appears that there are extensions that could put the magazine over the twenty rounds. Since I have only seen these on line, I might have to examine a magazine before I knew for sure if it was 19 or 23 rounds.

Now that looks like a magazine extension where as the other post looks like a grip extension. One would catch my eye as extending capacity and the other would not

KiloLee
01-31-2012, 23:33
Pics of my G17/Pearce +2 extension:

http://i43.tinypic.com/104g4yd.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/akxyip.jpg

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 00:40
your multi-quote of single a post response style is really annoying, please stop.

I'll humor you just this once.


Did the officer do anything illegal? Unlawful?

nope, just being a jerk.

Why do you say that? Do you believe he could not write the tickets because the operator was not the registered owner? You are incorrect.

so then I guess the officer was just being super cool and doing him a solid by letting him off without tickets. :rofl:


How about asking KiloLee about the sequence of events. Did the officer excuse the violations and then count rounds? Why don't you ask him...

because it doesn't matter. cop was a jerk. the order in which he did it is irrelevant.


Yes, we know...

it's a good thing OP didn't have a pet dog with him.


See, here you are totally dismissing the Virginia law which makes it unlawful to carry a pistol with a magazine having a capacity greater than 20 rounds in the County of Henrico. We may all believe that law is wrong and should be repealed, but, for now, it is the law.

well, I must be very careful here, lest ye slam me for "encouraging people to disobey the law"


Yes, there are some, but in my 7 years open carrying in Henrico around dozens of HPD officers, I never met on of them. This officer was not one either.

According to KiloLee, the officer advised him that he should obtain his CHP to "avoid this stuff later". I take that to mean the round count law. It sounds like reasonable advice to me, but, then again, I live here and have to deal with the few stupid handgun laws we have on the books, so I just might better understand the circumstances.

yeah, I'm sure that when the officer said he should get his CCW to "avoid this stuff later" he was talking about the pesky round count law and was not, in fact, talking about the punitive unloading of the magazine he performed to teach that OC zealot a lesson. (which is what I think he did)

RussP
02-01-2012, 05:16
Pics of my G17/Pearce +2 extension:

http://i43.tinypic.com/104g4yd.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/akxyip.jpgYep, in the pistol, that might/could/would raise suspicion, depending on the officer.

Again, the law as it exists, where mere possession of a weapon with a magazine having a capacity over 20 rounds is a crime is stupid.

Now, if the law said that if another crime is committed using a firearm, and the firearm's magazine has a capacity over 20 rounds, there is an additional penalty assessed, to me, that would be fine.

Psychman
02-01-2012, 05:26
Funny story. I was pulled over for going about 10 over. The officer was very nice. Although we have no duty to inform in Indiana unless asked I had a snubbie on the seat next to me. I therefore handed my CCW card to him and he then asked to see the gun which I gingerly handed to him after making sure we were both on the same page with regards to what he was asking me to do. He then went back to his car, ran my information. I then saw him get out of his car and start fumbling around in the back seat. This went on for 5 minutes. I couldnt imagine what he was doing.

He then came back to my car and said he had unloaded my 5 shot revolver for "safety" but dropped one round in his car and couldnt find it. He was pretty embarrassed and said he would find it later and drop it off in my mailbox. He then complimented me on having a clean driving record and wrote me a warning.

I went out to the mailbox the next morning and there was the missing bullet. I love Indiana.

RussP
02-01-2012, 05:31
your multi-quote of single a post response style is really annoying, please stop. You have your style, I have mine...:cool:
I'll humor you just this once.


nope, just being a jerk.

so then I guess the officer was just being super cool and doing him a solid by letting him off without tickets. :rofl:

because it doesn't matter. cop was a jerk. the order in which he did it is irrelevant.


it's a good thing OP didn't have a pet dog with him.


well, I must be very careful here, lest ye slam me for "encouraging people to disobey the law"


yeah, I'm sure that when the officer said he should get his CCW to "avoid this stuff later" he was talking about the pesky round count law and was not, in fact, talking about the punitive unloading of the magazine he performed to teach that OC zealot a lesson. (which is what I think he did)
I'll respond to your points later this morning...but, maybe not. Once again you've made your feelings for the people in law enforcement quite clear. Plus, it's obvious your opinion clearly outweighs the facts and circumstances known and any that may be discovered, and knowing the totality of those circumstances is of little value. :thumbsup:

Others of us feel differently.:cool:

RussP
02-01-2012, 05:32
Funny story. I was pulled over for going about 10 over. The officer was very nice. Although we have no duty to inform in Indiana unless asked I had a snubbie on the seat next to me. I therefore handed my CCW card to him and he then asked to see the gun which I gingerly handed to him after making sure we were both on the same page with regards to what he was asking me to do. He then went back to his car, ran my information. I then saw him get out of his car and start fumbling around in the back seat. This went on for 5 minutes. I couldnt imagine what he was doing.

He then came back to my car and said he had unloaded my 5 shot revolver for "safety" but dropped one round in his car and couldnt find it. He was pretty embarrassed and said he would find it later and drop it off in my mailbox. He then complimented me on having a clean driving record and wrote me a warning.

I went out to the mailbox the next morning and there was the missing bullet. I love Indiana.That's good...

RussP
02-01-2012, 10:47
well, I must be very careful here, lest ye slam me for "encouraging people to disobey the law"Well, you just did, actually...

You easily encourage Virginians to violate laws you think are wrong. Problem is, any consequences from your encouragement, they'll never affect you in any way.

In Virginia, we believe the legislative process results in more positive change to our firearm related laws than the civil disobedience you seem to embrace (for others).

We believe this year's session will result in more good legislation than bad. We have the pro-gun votes. So don't sow seeds that might result in negative results, negative influence on legislators due to someone acting on your encouragement.

Thanks

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 12:54
You have your style, I have mine...:cool:I'll respond to your points later this morning...but, maybe not. Once again you've made your feelings for the people in law enforcement quite clear. Plus, it's obvious your opinion clearly outweighs the facts and circumstances known and any that may be discovered, and knowing the totality of those circumstances is of little value. :thumbsup:

Others of us feel differently.:cool:


oh really? please post the anti-cop hate comments I have made in this thread.

I like the police. when the overstep their bounds, break the law, or harass open carriers... not so much.

the "totality of circumstances" for you ends when there's an officer involved. nothing else matters. they have the badge, and are therefore justified in what they do, whatever it may be.

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 12:56
Well, you just did, actually...

You easily encourage Virginians to violate laws you think are wrong. Problem is, any consequences from your encouragement, they'll never affect you in any way.

In Virginia, we believe the legislative process results in more positive change to our firearm related laws than the civil disobedience you seem to embrace (for others).

We believe this year's session will result in more good legislation than bad. We have the pro-gun votes. So don't sow seeds that might result in negative results, negative influence on legislators due to someone acting on your encouragement.

Thanks


great, now if the passage of better gun laws fail in VA it'll be my fault. :rofl:

SpringerTGO
02-01-2012, 13:14
yeah, I'm sure that when the officer said he should get his CCW to "avoid this stuff later" he was talking about the pesky round count law and was not, in fact, talking about the punitive unloading of the magazine he performed to teach that OC zealot a lesson. (which is what I think he did)
:rofl::rofl:
How is a punitive unloading of a magazine performed? Do you have to snarl and grimace when you do it?

Seriously, next time I'm pulled over for speeding and seat belt violations, do you think that if I offer to let the officer unload my magazine he'll let me off?

Maybe I can get a judge to do that to keep points off my record.

AZLawDawg
02-01-2012, 13:31
Cop does something illegal = Bad.
Cop does something legal = Bad.

lol

AZLawDawg
02-01-2012, 13:32
:rofl::rofl:
How is a punitive unloading of a magazine performed? Do you have to snarl and grimace when you do it?



It also helps to yell, "That'll learn ya!!"

glockurai
02-01-2012, 14:14
I'm not giving the benefit of anything to anyone.

All I'm saying is disarming a lawful open carrier and unloading his firearm to count the rounds to make sure it was legal was, in my opinion, a jerk move.

since the car wasn't OP's, and the officer didn't get to write all the tickets he was imagining when he hit his lights, he started to look of anything to catch him on. like the number of rounds in his magazine.

as MikeLadner pointed out, officer safety > everything else (including all laws up to and including the constitution... ha, I can make convoluted assumptions about what posters are thinking too!)

if he really felt unsafe, he would have disamed him and out the gun on the roof of the car or something. he might have even removed the magazine and cleared the chamber.

but unloading every round? yeah.. jerk move and/or fishing.

and you can not deny that there are LEOs out there (and here too) that don't like open carry, and try to discourage it through hassling and intimidation.

(and calling people names on the internet.)

You CAN get cited even if its not your vehicle. You are still responsible for making sure that the vehicle is properly equipped. Otherwise I could drive my buddy's vehicle, that has no headlights, at night with no consequences.:upeyes:

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 14:15
:rofl::rofl:
How is a punitive unloading of a magazine performed? Do you have to snarl and grimace when you do it?

Seriously, next time I'm pulled over for speeding and seat belt violations, do you think that if I offer to let the officer unload my magazine he'll let me off?

Maybe I can get a judge to do that to keep points off my record.

it helps if you know what the word means, and don't confuse it with some of its synonyms.
puキniキtive


adjective serving for, concerned with, or inflicting punishment: punitive laws; punitive action.

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 14:18
You CAN get cited even if its not your vehicle. You are still responsible for making sure that the vehicle is properly equipped. Otherwise I could drive my buddy's vehicle, that has no headlights, at night with no consequences.:upeyes:

in the hypothetical situation you've concocted (that is completely dissimilar to the incident in question), you're right. drive with no lights on at night, in your friends car, and you can get a ticket.

good thing the super cool officer did OP a solid by letting him off the hook for all those tickets he could have slapped him with, simply because he's super cool like that.

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 14:21
Cop does something illegal = Bad.
Cop does something legal = Bad.

lol

you've got it wrong.

cop does something legal, but unloads magazine to be a jerk = bad

It also helps to yell, "That'll learn ya!!"

coptalk humor doesn't work as well out here.

Glockwork Orange
02-01-2012, 14:24
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.



The initial 17 +1 ain't enough?

AZLawDawg
02-01-2012, 14:35
you've got it wrong.

cop does something legal, but unloads magazine to be a jerk = bad


but, but, if it's legal, it's always appropriate. Sound familiar?


coptalk humor doesn't work as well out here.

So?

SpringerTGO
02-01-2012, 14:55
you've got it wrong.

cop does something legal, but unloads magazine to be a jerk = bad



So the cop said to himself, "I think I'll be a jerk.... I'm going to punitively unload his magazine!"
:rofl:

You really are a silly guy.

RussP
02-01-2012, 16:54
It also helps to yell, "That'll learn ya!!"That's funny!!

RussP
02-01-2012, 16:59
you've got it wrong.

cop does something legal, but unloads magazine to be a jerk = bad
but, but, if it's legal, it's always appropriate. Sound familiar?Hmmn...Yes, it is familiar!

kensteele
02-01-2012, 17:52
You CAN get cited even if its not your vehicle. You are still responsible for making sure that the vehicle is properly equipped. Otherwise I could drive my buddy's vehicle, that has no headlights, at night with no consequences.:upeyes:

Of course it depends on the law but for the most part you are correct about ticketing some violations and allowing the court to make the determination. Obviously there are some things the driver cannot be responsible for (such as a busted windshield you just experienced in a state with mandatory glass) or a missing cat. converter or maybe bald tires and there's also the whole idea about you are driving a rental car, etc. I know the example was all about "activating the headlights at night" which is always the driver's responsibility no matter who owns the car, my example was about a headlight out or similiar.

So instead of leaping straight to "no consequences" why not just find out what really happens in real life? If you are driving a rental car or your boss's personal car and there are no headlights that just went out, instead of ticketing the driver (who cannot replace the headlights on a car they don't own and who cannot exactly abandon the car or inspect it properly), instead of claiming there are "no consequences" if you don't write a ticket, how about the officer impound the car or impound the keys or force the driver to stop driving and call the rental car company or the owner or park it? You see, we can actually do something productive besides ticketing the driver or turning a blind eye....there's actually something smart in between those two options you mentioned.

Only pointing out just because the first option doesn't always make sense doesn't mean we have to do NOTHING about it. Not all equipment violations are the driver's fault and although a lot can become a ticket doesn't mean you can't go to court over it.

KiloLee
02-01-2012, 18:27
The initial 17 +1 ain't enough?

Nope. What's wrong with more ammo?

Mister_Beefy
02-01-2012, 22:33
but, but, if it's legal, it's always appropriate. Sound familiar?



So?

I never said what he did was inappropriate, I said he was being a jerk.

So, save your humor for those that want to hear it.

Misty02
02-02-2012, 04:00
Both times I have been disarmed, the officer removed the weapon. I don't intend to be on anyone's video tape holding a firearm at a traffic stop with police present. If he wants my weapon (despite my objections), he'll have to do the disarming. I can't imagine a statute compelling the gun owner to handle his [loaded] weapon, to me that doesn't make sense.

I知 in agreement, there is no way on this earth that an officer will be able to get me to handle my weapon at a traffic stop. I値l twist, turn, raise my arm and just about anything necessary for him/her to safely remove it, but I知 NOT touching itregardless.

I知 not as concerned with a video, which usually doesn稚 come to play until after the fact. I知 concerned with another officer passing by at the wrong moment witnessing my movements and not knowing exactly what is going on.

.

AZLawDawg
02-02-2012, 05:40
I never said what he did was inappropriate, I said he was being a jerk.

So, save your humor for those that want to hear it.

Ahhh, so what the Officer did was both legal and appropriate, but he's still a jerk...

lol, keep digging.

dorkweed
02-02-2012, 06:52
How often have we seen typed here from both the anti OC crowd and LEO's that; "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Just because Mr. LEO could count the rounds.......he did. Jerkiness.:wavey:

I'm leaning toward Beefy on this one.

RussP
02-02-2012, 07:37
Nope. What's wrong with more ammo?Hehehehehe, nothing at all, and staying one round below the limit, actually 2 rounds because a 21 and above round capacity mag is unlawful, you had 19, is priceless.

How did he take possession of your Glock? Did you hand it to him? Did you get out of the car?

Still filling in the facts, and I really appreciate your help in doing so. :thumbsup:

RussP
02-02-2012, 07:54
How often have we seen typed here from both the anti OC crowd and LEO's that; "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Just because Mr. LEO could count the rounds.......he did. Jerkiness.:wavey:

I'm leaning toward Beefy on this one.So, when a cop does something "just because he can," he's a jerk.

When someone carrying a firearm for self defense does something "just because he can," he's not a jerk, ever?

glockurai
02-02-2012, 08:16
Of course it depends on the law but for the most part you are correct about ticketing some violations and allowing the court to make the determination. Obviously there are some things the driver cannot be responsible for (such as a busted windshield you just experienced in a state with mandatory glass) or a missing cat. converter or maybe bald tires and there's also the whole idea about you are driving a rental car, etc. I know the example was all about "activating the headlights at night" which is always the driver's responsibility no matter who owns the car, my example was about a headlight out or similiar.

So instead of leaping straight to "no consequences" why not just find out what really happens in real life? If you are driving a rental car or your boss's personal car and there are no headlights that just went out, instead of ticketing the driver (who cannot replace the headlights on a car they don't own and who cannot exactly abandon the car or inspect it properly), instead of claiming there are "no consequences" if you don't write a ticket, how about the officer impound the car or impound the keys or force the driver to stop driving and call the rental car company or the owner or park it? You see, we can actually do something productive besides ticketing the driver or turning a blind eye....there's actually something smart in between those two options you mentioned.

Only pointing out just because the first option doesn't always make sense doesn't mean we have to do NOTHING about it. Not all equipment violations are the driver's fault and although a lot can become a ticket doesn't mean you can't go to court over it.

You obviously misunderstood my post. It was in reply to Mister Beefy's post about the officer being a jerk and unloading the mag just because he couldn't cite the OP. My point is that he COULD have cited the OP but decided to use his discretion instead. As an officer discretion is something I use very often, more so in these tough times. When I do issue an equipment citation and the driver shows the court he fixed it, I request dismissal.
BTW, towing someone's vehicle is the last resort. Most would rather get cited, I know I would.

KiloLee
02-02-2012, 09:41
How did he take possession of your Glock? Did you hand it to him? Did you get out of the car?



He asked if I could unlock the passenger door, I agreed and did so, he walked around to passenger side of the car, opened the door and retrieved the gun while it was still in the holster. I never left the vehicle, or even opened my driver door.

When he returned my weapon, he again opened the passenger door, and asked if he could place the gun just behind the passenger seat, beside the door, for the duration of the stop. I agreed, and he did so. Along with advising me to obtain my permit, he explain the 2 equipment violations and how to correct them, and recommended I advise the owner of the car to make the changes.

I'm aware that by allowing him to reach inside the vehicle, I gave an "implied consent" to search the vehicle, but I'm quite certain that I could simply tell him to discontinue the search at any point (though I could only imagine how guilty I'd look).

To those suggesting the cop was a "jerk", you're simply wrong. I was polite throughout the stop, as was he. If he was a jerk, I'd have 4 tickets and possibly more trouble, which I didn't.

AZLawDawg
02-02-2012, 10:02
To those suggesting the cop was a "jerk", you're simply wrong. I was polite throughout the stop, as was he. If he was a jerk, I'd have 4 tickets and possibly more trouble, which I didn't.

:thumbsup:

dorkweed
02-02-2012, 11:51
So, when a cop does something "just because he can," he's a jerk.

When someone carrying a firearm for self defense does something "just because he can," he's not a jerk, ever?


You're incorrectly parsing my words now.:upeyes: That's not what I said at all!!:dunno:

RussP
02-02-2012, 12:02
How often have we seen typed here from both the anti OC crowd and LEO's that; "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Just because Mr. LEO could count the rounds.......he did. Jerkiness.:wavey:

I'm leaning toward Beefy on this one.You're incorrectly parsing my words now.:upeyes: That's not what I said at all!!:dunno:

So, when a cop does something "just because he can," he's a jerk. That's an accurate reflection of what you said.Just because Mr. LEO could count the rounds.......he did. Jerkiness.:wavey:When someone carrying a firearm for self defense does something "just because he can," he's not a jerk, ever?That's a question.

RussP
02-02-2012, 12:47
He asked if I could unlock the passenger door, I agreed and did so, he walked around to passenger side of the car, opened the door and retrieved the gun while it was still in the holster. I never left the vehicle, or even opened my driver door.

When he returned my weapon, he again opened the passenger door, and asked if he could place the gun just behind the passenger seat, beside the door, for the duration of the stop. I agreed, and he did so. Along with advising me to obtain my permit, he explain the 2 equipment violations and how to correct them, and recommended I advise the owner of the car to make the changes.

I'm aware that by allowing him to reach inside the vehicle, I gave an "implied consent" to search the vehicle, but I'm quite certain that I could simply tell him to discontinue the search at any point (though I could only imagine how guilty I'd look).

To those suggesting the cop was a "jerk", you're simply wrong. I was polite throughout the stop, as was he. If he was a jerk, I'd have 4 tickets and possibly more trouble, which I didn't.Thank you...

SpringerTGO
02-02-2012, 12:53
He asked if I could unlock the passenger door, I agreed and did so, he walked around to passenger side of the car, opened the door and retrieved the gun while it was still in the holster. I never left the vehicle, or even opened my driver door.

When he returned my weapon, he again opened the passenger door, and asked if he could place the gun just behind the passenger seat, beside the door, for the duration of the stop. I agreed, and he did so. Along with advising me to obtain my permit, he explain the 2 equipment violations and how to correct them, and recommended I advise the owner of the car to make the changes.

I'm aware that by allowing him to reach inside the vehicle, I gave an "implied consent" to search the vehicle, but I'm quite certain that I could simply tell him to discontinue the search at any point (though I could only imagine how guilty I'd look).

To those suggesting the cop was a "jerk", you're simply wrong. I was polite throughout the stop, as was he. If he was a jerk, I'd have 4 tickets and possibly more trouble, which I didn't.

Great clarification, thanks.

So Mister_Beefy......
You know what they say about aSSumptions, I'd say you owe that cop an apology.

Sharky7
02-02-2012, 13:49
in the hypothetical situation you've concocted (that is completely dissimilar to the incident in question), you're right. drive with no lights on at night, in your friends car, and you can get a ticket.

good thing the super cool officer did OP a solid by letting him off the hook for all those tickets he could have slapped him with, simply because he's super cool like that.

You ask Russ to show you the anti-cop statements you have made and then you post this snarky comment.

Yes, the officer could have issued citations. The officer did not. No reason for you to use sarcasm about the officer or his actions on a stop you were not on towards a police officer you have never met. This is where your attitude shines through.

When you claim the opposite of the truth - your credibility is questioned.

SpringerTGO
02-02-2012, 14:11
When you claim the opposite of the truth - your credibility is questioned.

What credibility? He lost that a long time ago.:rofl:

RussP
02-02-2012, 14:59
Plus, it's obvious your opinion clearly outweighs the facts and circumstances known and any that may be discovered, and knowing the totality of those circumstances is of little value.Additional facts discovered...the truthHe asked if I could unlock the passenger door, I agreed and did so, he walked around to passenger side of the car, opened the door and retrieved the gun while it was still in the holster. I never left the vehicle, or even opened my driver door.

When he returned my weapon, he again opened the passenger door, and asked if he could place the gun just behind the passenger seat, beside the door, for the duration of the stop. I agreed, and he did so. Along with advising me to obtain my permit, he explain the 2 equipment violations and how to correct them, and recommended I advise the owner of the car to make the changes.

I'm aware that by allowing him to reach inside the vehicle, I gave an "implied consent" to search the vehicle, but I'm quite certain that I could simply tell him to discontinue the search at any point (though I could only imagine how guilty I'd look).

To those suggesting the cop was a "jerk", you're simply wrong. I was polite throughout the stop, as was he. If he was a jerk, I'd have 4 tickets and possibly more trouble, which I didn't.And the summation...When you claim the opposite of the truth - your credibility is questioned.It's why we keep asking - to find the truth.

dorkweed
02-02-2012, 15:00
That's an accurate reflection of what you said.That's a question.




From re-reading this entire thread, I still stand by what I typed prior. You're still parsing my words; trying to imply something that I never intended.

I never said the cop was a "jerk"........only his actions.

The OP has been most forthcoming with extra info when asked. Not often that happens here. However; the OP seems to forgo/give up his 4th amendment protections quite easily for the sake of expediency!!!

IMHO, the OP probably informed the LEO that this wasn't his car and he needed a vehicle ASAP for whatever reason. Mr. LEO realized that pulling a car over for only 5 over is being a "jerk", and seeing that the OP was a straight forward guy, so he cut the OP some slack because he was forthcoming with info that technically didn't need to be disclosed.

Now what I'll say next; I have no way of proving, but Mr. LEO, in order to justify his time, had to try to find something to write this honorable, law abiding, citizen a ticket for. Just to fill his quota if anything!!!:cool: He was on a fishing expedition, and the OP essentially supplied the boat free of charge.:upeyes:

SpringerTGO
02-02-2012, 16:05
The OP has been most forthcoming with extra info when asked. Not often that happens here. However; the OP seems to forgo/give up his 4th amendment protections quite easily for the sake of expediency!!!

IMHO, the OP probably informed the LEO that this wasn't his car and he needed a vehicle ASAP for whatever reason. Mr. LEO realized that pulling a car over for only 5 over is being a "jerk", and seeing that the OP was a straight forward guy, so he cut the OP some slack because he was forthcoming with info that technically didn't need to be disclosed.

Now what I'll say next; I have no way of proving, but Mr. LEO, in order to justify his time, had to try to find something to write this honorable, law abiding, citizen a ticket for. Just to fill his quota if anything!!!:cool: He was on a fishing expedition, and the OP essentially supplied the boat free of charge.:upeyes:

More ASSumptions.

So what if the OP didn't care if the LEO checked his weapon? That's between him and the LEO. Maybe, like a lot of us, he didn't care and wanted to make the LEO's job easier.

And the LEO didn't need to try hard to find something to write a ticket for, he had the "law abiding citizen" on 4 infractions.

What "boat" full of problems did the "law abiding citizen" supply? He drove away without a ticket, feeling good about his encounter. And even if you want to call it a "fishing expedition", how many felons and drug busts do LEO's get by stopping people speeding in lowered cars with loud exhausts? I'd think you would appreciate a cop doing his job. And doing it in such a way, that the person he stopped feels good about it.

I can see where your experiences with LEO's might be bad. You are looking for reasons to blame them for doing their job.

RussP
02-02-2012, 16:21
From re-reading this entire thread, I still stand by what I typed prior. You're still parsing my words; trying to imply something that I never intended.

I never said the cop was a "jerk"........only his actions.So what you are saying is that the Henrico officer is not a jerk. Good, thank you.The OP has been most forthcoming with extra info when asked. Not often that happens here. Absolutely, providing all the facts about what happened as well as his opinions about the event provides rare insight into the event. However; the OP seems to forgo/give up his 4th amendment protections quite easily for the sake of expediency!!!Isn't that his choice, his decision to make?

KiloLee knows the law. He knows his Rights. He evaluated the situation and made the decisions he felt would mitigate any adverse outcome leading to a win-win outcome.IMHO, the OP probably informed the LEO that this wasn't his car and he needed a vehicle ASAP for whatever reason.Why don't you ask KiloLee what he told the officer instead of giving an opinion offered without substantiation????Mr. LEO realized that pulling a car over for only 5 over is being a "jerk",But you said the officer isn't a jerk. Really, is he or isn't he a jerk? and seeing that the OP was a straight forward guy, so he cut the OP some slack because he was forthcoming with info that technically didn't need to be disclosed.That I can accept based on KiloLee's posts.Now what I'll say next; I have no way of proving, but Mr. LEO, in order to justify his time, had to try to find something to write this honorable, law abiding, citizen a ticket for. Just to fill his quota if anything!!!:cool: He was on a fishing expedition, and the OP essentially supplied the boat free of charge.:upeyes:If anyone is fishing, it is you fishing for something with which to nail either KiloLee, the cop, or both.

RussP
02-02-2012, 16:23
What "boat" full of problems did the "law abiding citizen" supply? He drove away without a ticket, feeling good about his encounter. And even if you want to call it a "fishing expedition", how many felons and drug busts do LEO's get by stopping people speeding in lowered cars with loud exhausts? I'd think you would appreciate a cop doing his job. And doing it in such a way, that the person he stopped feels good about it.

I can see where your experiences with LEO's might be bad. You are looking for reasons to blame them for doing their job.Well said...

Mister_Beefy
02-02-2012, 16:36
Well, since the OP says the officer wasn't a jerk, then I retract my previous opinion. The officer wasn't a jerk. It was a polite interaction with a positive outcome for all involved.




More ASSumptions.



and had I said something like this, I would have received an infraction.

SpringerTGO
02-02-2012, 16:50
Well, since the OP says the officer wasn't a jerk, then I retract my previous opinion. The officer wasn't a jerk. It was a polite interaction with a positive outcome for all involved.







and had I said something like this, I would have received an infraction.

That's quite a way of admitting you were wrong.
Are you in politics?

kensteele
02-02-2012, 17:00
You obviously misunderstood my post.

Yes I misunderstood, sorry.

He asked if I could unlock the passenger door, I agreed and did so, he walked around to passenger side of the car, opened the door and retrieved the gun while it was still in the holster. I never left the vehicle, or even opened my driver door.

When he returned my weapon, he again opened the passenger door, and asked if he could place the gun just behind the passenger seat, beside the door, for the duration of the stop. I agreed, and he did so. Along with advising me to obtain my permit, he explain the 2 equipment violations and how to correct them, and recommended I advise the owner of the car to make the changes.

Got no problem with how he retrieved your weapon.


I'm aware that by allowing him to reach inside the vehicle, I gave an "implied consent" to search the vehicle, but I'm quite certain that I could simply tell him to discontinue the search at any point (though I could only imagine how guilty I'd look).

I have a huge problem with that. It is your right, don't be afraid of it. if you allow him to reach in your car for your weapon, that's what you meant....not you may "search" my car. If you find him turning over stuff and digging thru things, kindly tell him you don't give permission...and then let him continue or stop, whatever. Just don't give your permission, it's that easy. Nothing to feel guilty about.

Patchman
02-02-2012, 17:01
Wow, seems some people get bent out of shape when a LEO gives out tickets.

And some people get bent out of shape when a LEO used discretion and did not issue any tickets. And to rub salt in these people's indignation, the OP says the encounter was satisfactory.

Mister_Beefy
02-02-2012, 17:04
That's quite a way of admitting you were wrong.
Are you in politics?


don't worry.

in three years you can resurrect this thread and say "see! see! I won an argument!"

:rofl:

dorkweed
02-02-2012, 17:08
right[/B], don't be afraid of it. if you allow him to reach in your car for your weapon, that's what you meant....not you may "search" my car. If you find him turning over stuff and digging thru things, kindly tell him you don't give permission...and then let him continue or stop, whatever. Just don't give your permission, it's that easy. Nothing to feel guilty about.



Well said Ken. That's what I was getting a Russ. Thanks for the parsnip otherwise!!!!:upeyes::faint:

pag23
02-02-2012, 17:10
Sounds like the OP got profiled because of the vehicle and then the extended mag raised some more questions... Maybe the officer was checking the rounds out because there may have been a crime in the area where the type of bullets he was carrying was used.

Whether we all agree to agree or disagree, nobody was shot or arrested. It seems like both parties had some degree of mutual respect for each other.

dorkweed
02-02-2012, 18:21
Sounds like the OP got profiled because of the vehicle and then the extended mag raised some more questions... Maybe the officer was checking the rounds out because there may have been a crime in the area where the type of bullets he was carrying was used.

Whether we all agree to agree or disagree, nobody was shot or arrested. It seems like both parties had some degree of mutual respect for each other.





Agreed x10!!! However, as was posted earlier, it's probably a good thing the OP didn't have a dog in the vehicle!!:tongueout:

RussP
02-02-2012, 18:30
Let's see what Mister_Beefy said before you posted...yup.

there was no reason for the officer to touch the firearm or unload it's magazine.

he was just being a jerk, as some LEOs are wont to do.

...Including the possibility that he was just being a jerk.

All I'm saying is disarming a lawful open carrier and unloading his firearm to count the rounds to make sure it was legal was, in my opinion, a jerk move.

...but unloading every round? yeah.. jerk move and/or fishing...nope, just being a jerk.

...because it doesn't matter. cop was a jerk. the order in which he did it is irrelevant. cop does something legal, but unloads magazine to be a jerk = badI never said what he did was inappropriate, I said he was being a jerk.How often have we seen typed here from both the anti OC crowd and LEO's that; "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Just because Mr. LEO could count the rounds.......he did. Jerkiness.

I'm leaning toward Beefy on this one.Okay...You're incorrectly parsing my words now. That's not what I said at all!!

From re-reading this entire thread, I still stand by what I typed prior. You're still parsing my words; trying to imply something that I never intended.

I never said the cop was a "jerk"........only his actions.Okay, I see, you just agreed with what Mister_Beefy said, you didn't say it yourself...okay. The OP has been most forthcoming with extra info when asked. Not often that happens here. However; the OP seems to forgo/give up his 4th amendment protections quite easily for the sake of expediency!!!

IMHO, the OP probably informed the LEO that this wasn't his car and he needed a vehicle ASAP for whatever reason. Mr. LEO realized that pulling a car over for only 5 over is being a "jerk", and seeing that the OP was a straight forward guy, so he cut the OP some slack because he was forthcoming with info that technically didn't need to be disclosed.

Now what I'll say next; I have no way of proving, but Mr. LEO, in order to justify his time, had to try to find something to write this honorable, law abiding, citizen a ticket for. Just to fill his quota if anything!!!:cool: He was on a fishing expedition, and the OP essentially supplied the boat free of charge.:upeyes:I have a huge problem with that. It is your right, don't be afraid of it. if you allow him to reach in your car for your weapon, that's what you meant....not you may "search" my car. If you find him turning over stuff and digging thru things, kindly tell him you don't give permission...and then let him continue or stop, whatever. Just don't give your permission, it's that easy. Nothing to feel guilty about.Well said Ken. That's what I was getting a Russ.Oh, okay... Thanks for the parsnip otherwise!!!!Parsnip? What does parsnip have to do with anything?

RussP
02-02-2012, 18:48
Sounds like the OP got profiled because of the vehicle and then the extended mag raised some more questions... Maybe the officer was checking the rounds out because there may have been a crime in the area where the type of bullets he was carrying was used. No, most likely not the case. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
KiloLee does not have a Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP).
He was legally open carrying a Glock 17, a 17 round mag with a Pearce +2 mag extension.
KiloLee was stopped in Henrico County by a Henrico PD officer
Virginia law prohibits carrying firearms with magazines having a capacity greater than 20 rounds in Henrico County unless one has a CHP which KiloLee does not.
That law is the reason to count rounds.
Whether we all agree to agree or disagree, nobody was shot or arrested. It seems like both parties had some degree of mutual respect for each other.Yes...

RussP
02-02-2012, 18:51
Sounds like the OP got profiled because of the vehicle and then the extended mag raised some more questions... Maybe the officer was checking the rounds out because there may have been a crime in the area where the type of bullets he was carrying was used.

Whether we all agree to agree or disagree, nobody was shot or arrested. It seems like both parties had some degree of mutual respect for each other.

Agreed x10!!!You agree x10 with the part in bold?

RussP
02-02-2012, 18:59
Sounds like the OP got profiled because of the vehicle and then the extended mag raised some more questions... Maybe the officer was checking the rounds out because there may have been a crime in the area where the type of bullets he was carrying was used.

Whether we all agree to agree or disagree, nobody was shot or arrested. It seems like both parties had some degree of mutual respect for each other.Agreed x10!!! ...You agree x10 with the part in bold?Or is it just this part?...Whether we all agree to agree or disagree, nobody was shot or arrested. It seems like both parties had some degree of mutual respect for each other.

Patchman
02-02-2012, 19:01
Wow. Mr. Beefy. "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerkiness."

I think I counted post # 116 correctly.

RussP
02-02-2012, 19:07
I find it interesting that some say police officers don't know handgun carry law, yet, when one does, and investigates a possible violation, the RAS being an extended mag, people gripe about that...

janice6
02-02-2012, 19:55
Originally Posted by KiloLee http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18484034#post18484034)
Also, my first time ever being pulled while carrying a firearm.
The only thing that made me nervous is when the Officer started removing all twenty rounds from my Glock 17.
I believe that there are situations where there is an extra penalty per bullet.
Got asked when/where/why I bought it, but no issues with it at all.

The officer also advised that I obtain my CHP, to "avoid this stuff later" (the thorough weapon-check?). Good man.

It's entirely possible that the cop was simply counting the number of rounds you had in the mag. There appears to be a law as to the maximun you can carry. His comment about "getting a CHP may have been in reference to the magazine limit. Wth the CHP you may have been permitted unlimited rounds. The context may have been lost between you two.

RussP
02-02-2012, 20:20
It's entirely possible that the cop was simply counting the number of rounds you had in the mag. There appears to be a law as to the maximun you can carry. His comment about "getting a CHP may have been in reference to the magazine limit. Wth the CHP you may have been permitted unlimited rounds. The context may have been lost between you two. KiloLee posted that he understood context...That's what I've been thinking. I obviously didn't present or notify him of any permits, so I suppose he saw the extended magazine and got curious. I've been well aware of the non-permit 20rd limit, so I knew I was safe there. I do stay at 20 rounds with my carry setup.:wavey:

Mister_Beefy
02-02-2012, 20:48
Wow. Mr. Beefy. "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerkiness."

I think I counted post # 116 correctly.


and.... you'd be wrong.

count again. :rofl:

RussP
02-02-2012, 21:00
Wow. Mr. Beefy. "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerk." "Jerkiness."

I think I counted post # 116 correctly.

and.... you'd be wrong.

count again. :rofl:Sorry Patchman, the "Jerkiness" belongs to Mr. dorkweed...

RussP
02-02-2012, 21:05
I believe this thread has run its course.

KiloLee, thank you very much for all the additional information about the incident. Glad it worked out for you.