FMJ v JHP Research Recommendations? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TexasGlockster
01-29-2012, 20:42
Hey all, my wife grew up in the commie state of New Jersey where hollow point ammo is illegal (it's the only state in the union where that is true). She also grew up in a very gun-phobic environment whereas I obviously did not. I've been working on her and she is slowly coming over to "the dark side", and is even going to take a lesson with a proper instructor who will teach her how to stand and fire a pistol, etc.

Long story short, she still has some hangups about certain things, one of them is the use of JHP ammo by civilians. I've tried explaining to her the importance of JHP ammo for home defense and that it universally recommended as a home defense round, but my words are not getting through. Can anyone recommend to me some quality research or well rated article which advocates the merits of JPH over FMJ ammo? I'd love to just print off pages from Glock Talk but that wouldn't convince her (she's a lawyer). The internet is okay so long as its not some guys random blog. A book is okay too so long as its not too expensive (I don't want to waste money when I could be buying more ammo! :whistling:). A free online magazine or other reputable source would be idea.

Thanks!

Jim S.
01-29-2012, 21:08
My goodness, she is about thirty years behind the times.
Not sure what you can give her to read about this, but it is a well known subject and discussed in many magazine articles and such.
Try a Goggle search on the subject and see what comes up.
Will it change her mind?
Will she realize that very few people carry FMJ ammunition these days and that the hype of the dreaded hollow points was a bunch of crap that the anti-gun people stressed with no real facts to support their argument as to why we should not use them over FMJ?
The over penetration of the FMJ alone should be enough for her to not be so against the JHP's.
Rather than try to prove something to an attorney why not ask her if she feels that every other state in the union is wrong and her home state is the only one that is right.
Odds are against it.
Get with the times sister. Do your homework and look up this information.

Merkavaboy
01-29-2012, 21:52
Go to the GATE Self Defense section and ask Mas Ayoob to explain why FMJ should be avoided. He can provide cases of people being injured and killed by overpenetrating FMJ and solid bullets.

fredj338
01-30-2012, 10:25
No offense, I am sure she is a lovely woman, but emotion is one of the hardest things to get past in a person. Your wife suffers, like many liberals, in attaching an emotion to everything. The HP was banned in NJ based on emotional response, not science. SOmehowe they believe the FMJ is more humane; Hague convention, smaller holes, less lethal, whatever. IMO, If I have to defend my life or the life of my family, I am not worried about being humane to the POS that is trying to kill me. He invited himself to the party, he gets what ever flavor ice cream I have, not the one with fewer calories that is better for him.
Your wife needs a dose of reality. Unfortunately, that usually takes the form of a violent encounter, for some emotional driven folks to get thru their heads. SO maybe you can just explain to her that LEO carry JHP to stop a fight sooner & to limit over penetration in the BG. IN reality, a single well placed JHP is often survivable where 4-5 FMJ may not be. The object is to stop the fight. If the guy lives or dies is not relavent, whether I live or die is.

NG VI
01-30-2012, 10:40
She's clearly operating under the assumption that one type of bullet is 'normal' (FMJ) while another type of bullet is exotic and dangerous.

Basically the best thing to do is help her understand that copper-jacketed lead-cored projectiles are all very much ordinary, and there is nothing unusual about JHP bullets at all. They happen to be a safer type of ammunition to load, because generally handguns will kill a person either by causing wounds to the central nervous system or by causing someone to bleed to death, and any type of bullet is equally likely to make someone die of those two causes, but JHP bullets generally deliver more felt impact to the person shot, making it more likely he or she will stop doing whatever caused him to be shot the first time, reducing the number of necessary wounds and the number of shots that could potentially go flying off down the street.

dosei
01-30-2012, 11:48
To to the GATE Self Defense section and ask Mas Ayoob to explain why FMJ should be avoided. He can provide cases of people being injured and killed by overpenetrating FMJ and solid bullets.

Agreed...Mas can speak "lawyer" very fluently when needed.

TexasGlockster
01-30-2012, 12:42
Agreed...Mas can speak "lawyer" very fluently when needed.

I will do that. Though my wife came from NJ she is no liberal. She just grew up with some preconceived ideas about guns that she is working through. She is very practical but just has limited experience. I have made progress but she responds very well to reputable sources. I know you all mean well but the reality is that your agruments aren't helpful in this case. I KNOW THAT JHP ARE BETTER FOR SELF DEFENSE and I know why. What I'm asking for are sources, that are not you or me, that I can use as a source of evidence.

cowboy1964
01-30-2012, 13:09
It's quite simple. A larger permanent cavity is better than a smaller one. A bullet that stays in the body expends all of it's energy in the body. Good JHPs can expand to 2x (or even more) of their caliber diameter. If someone can't grasp those concepts intuitively then I'm not sure how you could explain it any more clearly.

Have her read this:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

It sounds like her argument for FMJ is more from a legal perspective than from a performance one. If that's the case, ask her to find out how many people have been charged simply because they used JHPs for self-defense (outside of NJ of course).

NG VI
01-30-2012, 16:16
What source can you give that could possibly demonstrate to someone who knows nothing about guns that FMJ bullets are not 'normal' while JHP bullets are not 'special' or 'exotic'?

Tiro Fijo
01-30-2012, 17:33
...Your wife suffers, like many liberals, in attaching an emotion to everything...


Seeing how you live in Kalifornia, home to Pelosi & Feinstein, I hereby deem you the expert on histrionic, psychotic liberal women!! :whistling:


:rofl: :supergrin:

Glolt20-91
01-30-2012, 17:42
Off hand, finding a source that teaches common sense is going to be difficult to find. :rofl:

fredj338
01-30-2012, 17:47
Seeing how you live in Kalifornia, home to Pelosi & Feinstein, I hereby deem you the expert on histrionic, psychotic liberal women!! :whistling:


:rofl: :supergrin:
Now to be clear, I am NOT calling the OP's wife hysterical or liberal, but she certainly is emotional as are most women. It's very tough to get passed an emotional argument, regardless of how many facts you put forth. Hence why we have liberals & conservatives.:dunno:

unit1069
01-30-2012, 18:08
Both types of bullets have the ability to kill. One type (JHP) is designed to impact the target, expand, expend all its energy into the target, and remain in that target.

The second round (FMJ) is designed to push through whatever the target's composition until all the energy is expended. This second design bullet has caused deaths and injury to innocent civilians in close proximity to the felonious targets because the design favors penetration above immediate energy expense.

Since there are no guarantees in life, the first design (JHP) has the ability to also cause collateral injury/death to innocent victims; but due to extensive ballistics research it has been determined that the first design (JHP) poses the lesser chance of collateral death or injury to innocents. For this reason nearly all US police and federal law enforcement agencies mandate the first bullet design (JHP) for officer/agent issue ammunition.

TexasGlockster
01-30-2012, 20:24
It's quite simple. A larger permanent cavity is better than a smaller one. A bullet that stays in the body expends all of it's energy in the body. Good JHPs can expand to 2x (or even more) of their caliber diameter. If someone can't grasp those concepts intuitively then I'm not sure how you could explain it any more clearly.

Have her read this:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

It sounds like her argument for FMJ is more from a legal perspective than from a performance one. If that's the case, ask her to find out how many people have been charged simply because they used JHPs for self-defense (outside of NJ of course).


NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! Thank you kind sir, thank you. This is the kind of thing I'm looking for. Not that it should matter, but the "objective" views of the FBI can add some credence to my words.

And as for the other poster...the one who called MY WIFE hysterical... :steamed:



...sometimes she can be. :tongueout: Such is life. We are all but slaves to the women we love. Sigh :whistling:

RichardB
02-01-2012, 16:38
New York Times on NYPD Adopting Hollow Points.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/nyregion/new-york-police-will-start-using-deadlier-bullets.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Mas Ayoob
02-01-2012, 17:43
Thank you, Richard!

TexasGlockster
02-02-2012, 20:52
New York Times on NYPD Adopting Hollow Points.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/nyregion/new-york-police-will-start-using-deadlier-bullets.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Excellent article. Thanks for the help. I think my lawyer wife will have a lot of evidence to consider.

unit1069
02-03-2012, 00:16
Excellent article. Thanks for the help. I think my lawyer wife will have a lot of evidence to consider.

Hope you encourage your wife to consider the weight certain GT experts lend to JHP bullet design and the reasons for their endorsement, as their expertise has carried considerable weight in court decisions.