Bought my first rifle, M&P 15 Sport $569 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Ocean_glocker
02-04-2012, 08:40
I finally pulled the trigger on my AR purchase. I have been going back and forth between a few: M&P, Stag (lefty), Bushy Carbon 15. But when a Local dealer posted on another forum that they had a few M&P sports for $570, I had to jump on it.

I'm looking forward to shooting it tomorrow...

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/guitarmaster03/DSCN1737.jpg

WoodenPlank
02-04-2012, 08:42
Very good price on the sport.

22rtf2
02-04-2012, 08:45
Love it!!!

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Patriot III
02-04-2012, 08:59
Good for you! Now, go out and shoot the hell out of it. :wavey:

fowler
02-04-2012, 09:13
Good value leaves room for good site like aimpoint for another 4-5 hundred dollars. Or eotech in same price range. You need to spend that much for a good site to insure reliable performance under combat conditions. As a rule of thumb spend as much for optic as rifle to get some thing you can bet your life on. I prefer the aimpoint with there 5 year battery life over eotech which get about 6months to a year on a battery. Cheap optics are a joke.

Ocean_glocker
02-04-2012, 09:29
Good value leaves room for good site like aimpoint for another 4-5 hundred dollars. Or eotech in same price range. You need to spend that much for a good site to insure reliable performance under combat conditions. As a rule of thumb spend as much for optic as rifle to get some thing you can bet your life on. I prefer the aimpoint with there 5 year battery life over eotech which get about 6months to a year on a battery. Cheap optics are a joke.

Fowler, I appreciate the advice! What your take on Bushnell? I can get very good pricing on those...

Agent6-3/8
02-04-2012, 09:31
Good value leaves room for good site like aimpoint for another 4-5 hundred dollars. Or eotech in same price range. You need to spend that much for a good site to insure reliable performance under combat conditions. As a rule of thumb spend as much for optic as rifle to get some thing you can bet your life on. I prefer the aimpoint with there 5 year battery life over eotech which get about 6months to a year on a battery. Cheap optics are a joke.

You're quite correct, but I'd like to add that a high dollar optic isn't necessarily a must depending on what you're doing with your rifle. Aimpoints and Eotechs are awesome, but not everyone needs one for a range or HD rifle. I agree that most cheap optics are a joke, but my experience with Primary Arms has been exception.

JaPes
02-04-2012, 09:34
Try shooting with the stock irons for a little while, then decide on an optic. Once you can shoot well using irons, shooting with a dot becomes a convenience not a must.

WoodenPlank
02-04-2012, 09:46
Try shooting with the stock irons for a little while, then decide on an optic. Once you can shoot well using irons, shooting with a dot becomes a convenience not a must.

Absolutely this.

TangoFoxtrot
02-04-2012, 12:27
I finally pulled the trigger on my AR purchase. I have been going back and forth between a few: M&P, Stag (lefty), Bushy Carbon 15. But when a Local dealer posted on another forum that they had a few M&P sports for $570, I had to jump on it.

I'm looking forward to shooting it tomorrow...

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/guitarmaster03/DSCN1737.jpg
Congrats on your purchase! That price is awesome. I paid $610 OTD for my Sport. The rifle shoots b***s accurate right out of the box.:supergrin:

Bimmer1
02-04-2012, 15:04
Does anyone own both a high end AR and a M&P 15 Sport? I was wondering what most of you think about the long-term durability of the M&P 15 Sport compared to AR's that cost $1,000 and above. Do you see any trouble spots on the Sport that concern you about longevity for average shooting?

never enough
02-04-2012, 16:26
nice gun!

phil evans
02-04-2012, 16:35
great price, thats a $100 less than i paid.

carloglock19
02-04-2012, 17:32
Congrats on your new M&P15!

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The Pirate
02-04-2012, 17:46
Good choice!


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JaPes
02-04-2012, 18:33
Do you see any trouble spots on the Sport that concern you about longevity for average shooting?

Nope. Longevity is covered by S&W's lifetime warranty (for the original owner).

My primary use for my 15-Sport is for range fun. I'm just an average citizen putting it to average use in an average environment. :supergrin:

RyanNREMTP
02-04-2012, 18:36
Does anyone own both a high end AR and a M&P 15 Sport? I was wondering what most of you think about the long-term durability of the M&P 15 Sport compared to AR's that cost $1,000 and above. Do you see any trouble spots on the Sport that concern you about longevity for average shooting?

Hopefully I'll be able to provide an answer this spring. One of these is what I'm thinking of getting in a month or so.

9x94
02-04-2012, 18:50
In reality, unless you are military or LEO you are buying this gun for fun, and the one in a million chance you actually need it. Your gun will serve you well in that role. Do not hesitate in buying a budget "knock-off" red dot if you wish. Don't be influenced by people who insist you need a $500 optic on your $500 rifle.
Enjoy!

Good value leaves room for good site like aimpoint for another 4-5 hundred dollars. Or eotech in same price range. You need to spend that much for a good site to insure reliable performance under combat conditions. As a rule of thumb spend as much for optic as rifle to get some thing you can bet your life on. I prefer the aimpoint with there 5 year battery life over eotech which get about 6months to a year on a battery. Cheap optics are a joke.

phil evans
02-04-2012, 19:32
Nope. Longevity is covered by S&W's lifetime warranty (for the original owner).

My primary use for my 15-Sport is for range fun. I'm just an average citizen putting it to average use in an average environment. :supergrin:

my S&W M&P 15 sport Safety and Information Manual on p.37 says one year warranted for defects in material and workmanship. there is a lifetime service policy("repair without charge") that begins after the one year warranty(i.e. - probably no call tag).

fowler
02-04-2012, 20:32
Yes buy a cheap knock off Chinese reddot and it will fail. Buy a good entry level,(eotech-Aimpoint) price one for $400-500 it will last and can be trusted. A high end optic is near a $1000 on the low end and $1400 up for a Trijicon. $400-$500 will get you a reliable site. Anything less is garbage and not to be trusted. The SW Sport is as good and reliable as any AR system that its based on.

9x94
02-04-2012, 21:03
Tactical mall ninjas do like to justify dropping large amounts of cash to make sure their optic can be "trusted" when shooting paper and tin cans.
I've gone to a few carbine classes with my dept issued budget rifle and chuckled at the guys with their $2,000 rifles and $1,200 optics who still couldn't shoot for crap.
Skill and training beats the expensive toys any day.

Yes buy a cheap knock off Chinese reddot and it will fail. Buy a good entry level,(eotech-Aimpoint) price one for $400-500 it will last and can be trusted. A high end optic is near a $1000 on the low end and $1400 up for a Trijicon. $400-$500 will get you a reliable site. Anything less is garbage and not to be trusted. The SW Sport is as good and reliable as any AR system that its based on.

Made Man
02-05-2012, 07:20
Nice purchase on the Sport. I love mine, great rifle. S&W hit a BIG home run with this thing, I havn't heard on horror story on them yet. I got mine in Sept. '11, it's been flawless.

Ruggles
02-05-2012, 08:11
I have to agree, this belief that every part on an AR has to be "combat" tough (which is normally based on noting but opinion and price) to be acceptable for a civilian AR is often too much to stomach :)

I have no problem with buying what you want for your AR but some folks seem to push their preference too much IMO. I have a crap load of stuff that is not needed but I wanted on my ARs. :)

I think their are a number of good options on optics in the $200-$350 range.

And nothing wrong at all with iron sights on a AR.

redbrd
02-05-2012, 08:33
Try shooting with the stock irons for a little while, then decide on an optic. Once you can shoot well using irons, shooting with a dot becomes a convenience not a must.

I have used Trificon, Aimpoints and Eotech (I like the Eotech more) but I will not put a sight on a gun if I can't use the irons. I can't tell you about the budget sights because I haven't used them, but I can speak to the durability of the ones I have mentioned.
After just doing some window shopping it seems like several quality companies are making good scope for AR's, at more reasonable prices than the Eotech, Aimpoint and definetly the Trijicons.

TangoFoxtrot
02-05-2012, 08:40
In reality, unless you are military or LEO you are buying this gun for fun, and the one in a million chance you actually need it. Your gun will serve you well in that role. Do not hesitate in buying a budget "knock-off" red dot if you wish. Don't be influenced by people who insist you need a $500 optic on your $500 rifle.
Enjoy!

Yes exactly! I have a cheap $80 reflex sight on my M&P Sport that is accurate and I beat the B**** of and it is as durable as my ACOG that I have on my Colt. Some people just have money to burn on extra bling and need to spend big bucks to compensate for a lack of shooting skills.

TangoFoxtrot
02-05-2012, 08:47
Does anyone own both a high end AR and a M&P 15 Sport? I was wondering what most of you think about the long-term durability of the M&P 15 Sport compared to AR's that cost $1,000 and above. Do you see any trouble spots on the Sport that concern you about longevity for average shooting?

NONE TO DATE! I have mine for 3 months now and have fired a about 2,000 rds thru it with out a hitch. I don't just shoot at static targets , I run and gun with mine industy enviroments and have dropped it a few times. This AR is a durable and accurate as any AR I have ever owned or used in the past 25 years.

WoodenPlank
02-05-2012, 08:51
Some people just have money to burn on extra bling and need to spend big bucks to compensate for a lack of shooting skills.

Some people just prefer to put accessories on their gun that they KNOW will go to hell and back if needed. Aimpoint and ACOG will do that. Surefire will do that. That cheap $80 reflex might... or it might not.

USMCgs3
02-05-2012, 09:02
Why spend the money on optics when iron sights is all you will need for >500 yards


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Ruggles
02-05-2012, 09:18
Why spend the money on optics when iron sights is all you will need for >500 yards


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Older eyes :rofl:

Gunnut 45/454
02-05-2012, 09:45
Here's an idea get a Vortex red dot- I have one on my PSA - good site and not alot of money. Gets good reviews from what I've seen. That of course after you learn how to shoot your irons! A buddy of mine has the Bushy optic and it eats batteries like crazy!:whistling:

cyphertext
02-05-2012, 09:56
Wish I could find one at that price. I have only found one in stock here, and they want $700.

Looks like from the photo that it came in a cardboard box. Is Smith not shipping these in the plastic case anymore?

TangoFoxtrot
02-05-2012, 10:41
Some people just prefer to put accessories on their gun that they KNOW will go to hell and back if needed. Aimpoint and ACOG will do that. Surefire will do that. That cheap $80 reflex might... or it might not.

Well if it doesn't, that is why I have back up iron sights. I think too many folks are too dependant on optics. Their nice to have but "ANY" one can fail at anytime.

fowler
02-05-2012, 11:14
Cheap is ok with the MP-Sport its that good and as good as any , But cheap is bad in red dot optics that are not combat worthy. $400-$450 is about the least amount to get a reliable low end eotech or aimpoint combat worthy site. Check out the Aimpoints they have 5 year battery life!!

slickt0mmy
02-05-2012, 11:25
$569 AND it came with Magpul flip up sights? You got a deal, my friend! :wavey:
You're going to love it. They're fantastic little rifles.

And cyphertext, yes, they ship in cardboard boxes. At least mine did, and I've had it for a little less than a year. I wasn't aware they ever shipped in plastic.

USMCgs3
02-05-2012, 11:45
I like how everyone "must" be preparing for combat if they buy a ar15....

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JaPes
02-05-2012, 12:00
I like how everyone "must" be preparing for combat if they buy a ar15....

Agreed.

I'm a firearms enthusiast. I shoot at a range. I'm not an "operator". I'm an average citizen.

I buy firearms for recreation & fun, not in anticipation of sustained armed conflict on a regional or national geographic scale.

If "Red Dawn" ever happens, my only goal is to evade and escape the combat zone.

Buy whatever rifle you want, for whatever role you want it to fill, and equip it to the level you feel is appropriate enough to give you a warm fuzzy feeling when you sleep at night.

22rtf2
02-05-2012, 12:12
I like how everyone "must" be preparing for combat if they buy a ar15....

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WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ruggles
02-05-2012, 12:54
Glad I am not the only one not gearing up for Red Dawn Part II :)

22rtf2
02-05-2012, 15:42
Glad I am not the only one not gearing up for Red Dawn Part II :)

Just wait for the "you have to be prepared" mall ninjas.

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Ocean_glocker
02-05-2012, 16:44
Just got back from the range! I'm loving this rifle! Shooting lefty there was no concern with brass in the face. I shot decent group for indoor shooting (25yds). My wife actually enjoyed shooting zombie targets with it! Pic later.

In regards to optics, I'm sure at some point I will, but I'm in no rush. I'm a traditionalist I'm gonna shoot irons. All electronics fail at one time or another for many reasons, so I'm gonna get proficient with the irons.

I wouldn't consider myself a 'Mall Ninja' or 'Coach Commando', just an enthusiast. and if SHTF God forbid, I'm gonna grab my shotgun... maybe my wife would take the AR :)

WoodenPlank
02-05-2012, 17:31
Just got back from the range! I'm loving this rifle! Shooting lefty there was no concern with brass in the face. I shot decent group for indoor shooting (25yds). My wife actually enjoyed shooting zombie targets with it! Pic later.

In regards to optics, I'm sure at some point I will, but I'm in no rush. I'm a traditionalist I'm gonna shoot irons. All electrons fail at one time or another for many reasons, so I'm gonna get proficient with the irons.

I wouldn't consider myself a 'Mall Ninja' or 'Coach Commando', just an enthusiast. and if SHTF God forbid, I'm gonna grab my shotgun... maybe my wife would take the AR :)

This is absolutely a solid attitude to have. While quality optics rarely fail, being able to use the irons if/when they do is essential. Train on the irons first, get to where shooting with them is second nature, THEN worry about an optic. In the meantime, you learn the weapon system in other ways, and when you add an optic you can concentrate on it.

Ruggles
02-05-2012, 17:45
Just wait for the "you have to be prepared" mall ninjas.

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Oh I am prepared, I have seen every Steven Segal movie ever made baby! :2gun:

0scarM!ke
02-05-2012, 20:37
Love my M&P-15 Sport too! 600 rounds and counting...

joecoastie
02-05-2012, 20:55
In regards to optics, I'm sure at some point I will, but I'm in no rush. I'm a traditionalist I'm gonna shoot irons. All electronics fail at one time or another for many reasons, so I'm gonna get proficient with the irons.


I agree, currently my Sport just has the factory irons. Eventually I'll put a red dot of some type on it but first I want to become proficient with the irons.

Ocean_glocker
02-05-2012, 21:03
Love my M&P-15 Sport too! 600 rounds and counting...

I like that hand guard you have. What is it and how much? I'm currently debating getting a low profile gas block and mounting a flip-up front sight to match the rear.

biscotrip
02-05-2012, 21:13
Oscarmike: what kind of scope is that? I see it has a sig sauer base plate. What model and how much?

Roundabout136
02-05-2012, 21:16
Would you guys consider this to be the best value in an AR? Starting to do research for my first.

J_P
02-05-2012, 21:20
I finally pulled the trigger on my AR purchase. I have been going back and forth between a few: M&P, Stag (lefty), Bushy Carbon 15. But when a Local dealer posted on another forum that they had a few M&P sports for $570, I had to jump on it.

I'm looking forward to shooting it tomorrow...

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/guitarmaster03/DSCN1737.jpg

Nice price man and a great deal those are really good quality rifles, I was looking into geting one of those for my first ar15 but I ended up picking up a Spikes Tactical ST-15. I payed $846 for the total build, $499 for the 16" middy upper, $273 for the Lower and $73 for the Magpul Flip-up rear sights and two Pmags. I should have it by the end of this week hopefully.

Javelin
02-05-2012, 21:26
Would you guys consider this to be the best value in an AR? Starting to do research for my first.

No. But if you have $569 then sure go ahead. Spend some money - our economy needs it.

biscotrip
02-05-2012, 21:29
Would you guys consider this to be the best value in an AR? Starting to do research for my first.

Well hello A. Halpert. Yes, it is a good starting AR. Very good base to build on.

mingaa
02-05-2012, 21:30
I'm a paycheck or two away from adding an AR. The S&W sport is at
the top of the list and stock and pricing seem to constantly vary. When on sale they fly out the door for good reason. There must be a rule of business logic about cash in hand vs back ordered stock. I'm looking to round out my 3 gun setup and my SKS is my current best candidate. A 308 will take more budget - too bad the Saiga is 10 rounds like the SKS. I'm very interested in trying the M&P in the rifle slot.

Javelin
02-05-2012, 21:32
Some people just prefer to put accessories on their gun that they KNOW will go to hell and back if needed. Aimpoint and ACOG will do that. Surefire will do that. That cheap $80 reflex might... or it might not.

No.

Don't be a "mall ninja" or whatever they said. The El-Cheapo is just as good as the real deal... you know this because Aimpoint, EOTech, Noveske, Colt, DD, Surefire, Fenix, etc are all out to scam folks and make them waste their money.

Ok you know I am totally kidding just so we are clear - I have no problem with people buying these S&W DPMS, etc but when the comments start coming out that they are "just as good as brand X" that we know is not the case then they get their feelers hurt. Kind of like buying their rifle and then coming on the gun boards to research their purchase only to find out they are not ranked among the best (happened to me too when I purchased an Armalite & DPMS to be quite honest ... only to later learn from personal experience that they are inferior to others on the marketplace).

:wavey:

cyphertext
02-05-2012, 21:48
No. But if you have $569 then sure go ahead. Spend some money - our economy needs it.

OK, you said "No". So what is the best value at this price point?

The Pirate
02-05-2012, 22:51
OK, you said "No". So what is the best value at this price point?

I'd like to know too. I've built a few cheapo's and they usually end up costing more than that.


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Javelin
02-05-2012, 23:25
OK, you said "No". So what is the best value at this price point?

The best value on the market for an AR is the $965 Colt 6920 currently on sale at G&R Tactical.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920

:wavey:

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 06:41
The best value on the market for an AR is the $965 Colt 6920 currently on sale at G&R Tactical.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920

:wavey:

That rifle is almost 70% more than what the OP purchased the Sport for. Can you outline what features the rifle has over the sport to justify the increase in cost? What makes that rifle a better value at a 70% higher price?

BTW, G&R are out of stock. :wavey:

itstime
02-06-2012, 06:58
My dealer had the first Spirt I ever seen last weekend. He said his pricing just went up and they aren't that easy to get. They trickle in and he sells every one he gets.

I would have purchased it if it weren't for his price increase. I don't need it but want it but not for prices going up for demand.

For $569 it would have been mine for sure.

Good buy there OP

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 07:04
My dealer had the first Spirt I ever seen last weekend. He said his pricing just went up and they aren't that easy to get. They trickle in and he sells every one he gets.

I would have purchased it if it weren't for his price increase. I don't need it but want it but not for prices going up for demand.

For $569 it would have been mine for sure.

Good buy there OP

What was you dealer's price? Academy sells them for $650 here, and they sell as soon as they hit the floor. The only shop I found one in wanted $700, and at that price, I passed.

TangoFoxtrot
02-06-2012, 07:07
That rifle is almost 70% more than what the OP purchased the Sport for. Can you outline what features the rifle has over the sport to justify the increase in cost? What makes that rifle a better value at a 70% higher price?

BTW, G&R are out of stock. :wavey:

Yeah I'd like to hear this one too!

22rtf2
02-06-2012, 08:21
Yeah I'd like to hear this one too!

You already know the answer: it's the only true mil-spec. If the government (that pays a grand for a toilet seat) thinks it's great, it's the only true AR. :brickwall:

itstime
02-06-2012, 08:35
What was you dealer's price? Academy sells them for $650 here, and they sell as soon as they hit the floor. The only shop I found one in wanted $700, and at that price, I passed.

$645 OTD. still good from what I hear but not $569

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 08:53
$645 OTD. still good from what I hear but not $569

Ya, I haven't found any of these sub $600 deals in my area, but I would buy at $645 OTD. The $650 and $700 I have found are before tax.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 11:37
That rifle is almost 70% more than what the OP purchased the Sport for. Can you outline what features the rifle has over the sport to justify the increase in cost? What makes that rifle a better value at a 70% higher price?

BTW, G&R are out of stock. :wavey:

Yeah I am really going to type out the differences between a Colt 6920 and an SW M&P Sport. Hobby vs. a real AR. And for that matter I don't even care for the 6920's as I prefer Noveske rifles by far (own 4 of them... would not have it any other way to be honest).

You know what. . . I retract my statement. You deserve the M&P Sport.

JaPes
02-06-2012, 11:43
Yeah I am really going to type out the differences between a Colt 6920 and an SW M&P Sport. Hobby vs. a real AR. And for that matter I don't even care for the 6920's as I prefer Noveske rifles by far (own 4 of them... would not have it any other way to be honest).

You know what. . . I retract my statement. You deserve the M&P Sport.

Why so angry?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f275/suba-saab/get-along-2.jpg

:grouphug:

Javelin
02-06-2012, 11:45
You already know the answer: it's the only true mil-spec. If the government (that pays a grand for a toilet seat) thinks it's great, it's the only true AR. :brickwall:

You see you are talking to someone who has owned well over a dozen ARs. Most folks that know what they are talking about and used to frequent this thread stopped giving a **** because idiots don't listen and just want a bargain basement gun and then talk about it as if it is just the same as a top tier firearm. Well guess what? It isn't. In fact it pretty much is the lowest line you can go minus DPMS. And yeah I own DPMS (hell I owned 2 of them once and if you pull my threads you will see I even gave the DPMS a good initial review thread), But you know what happens to these little gems? They go to **** and then start having issues and you start replacing BCG and other parts as the damn thing seizes up and you leave the range in embarrassment because your crappy ass firearm which everyone told you would go to **** did.

And those posts don't happen. You know what happens to those people? They end up selling at gunshows or the GT Ads. You know why I own mostly all Noveske firearms? Because they are by far superior to anything else out there. Colt just happens to be the best value at $965.

So either listen or keep beating the same damn drum. I have been there... and yeah I am selling my DPMS here when all the jackoffs decide they need a gun for 2012 and I will make a pretty good profit. But the gun itself blows. It's over gassed. Same as the M&P15 that I had for a while. So whatever. Keep hitting your head against a wall. It's a good look for you.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 11:47
Why so angry?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f275/suba-saab/get-along-2.jpg

:grouphug:

Idiots infested the Black Rifle forums like a bunch of welfare moms?

22rtf2
02-06-2012, 11:48
Look at all the love "consumerism" brings out in people. :upeyes:

Javelin
02-06-2012, 11:49
Look at all the love "consumerism" brings out in people. :upeyes:

:upeyes:

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 12:23
Yeah I am really going to type out the differences between a Colt 6920 and an SW M&P Sport. Hobby vs. a real AR. And for that matter I don't even care for the 6920's as I prefer Noveske rifles by far (own 4 of them... would not have it any other way to be honest).

You know what. . . I retract my statement. You deserve the M&P Sport.

Why the hate? You made a statement and I am asking for clarification. In another post, you talked about over gassing...what does that mean?

The differences that I am aware of between the Colt and the M&P Sport are:
1. No forward assist or dust cover on the Sport.
2. Barrel on the Sport is melonite treated vs. chrome lined on the Colt.
3. Barrel on the Sport is 1:8 twist 5r rifling vs. 1:7 on the colt.
4. Barrels are made of different grade steel.

Is there anything else?

22rtf2
02-06-2012, 13:01
Why the hate? You made a statement and I am asking for clarification. In another post, you talked about over gassing...what does that mean?

The differences that I am aware of between the Colt and the M&P Sport are:
1. No forward assist or dust cover on the Sport.
2. Barrel on the Sport is melonite treated vs. chrome lined on the Colt.
3. Barrel on the Sport is 1:8 twist 5r rifling vs. 1:7 on the colt.
4. Barrels are made of different grade steel.

Is there anything else?

The Sport doesn't cost 3k so people don't know you have money to burn.

slickt0mmy
02-06-2012, 13:45
Goodness Javelin. Cool your jets. They were just asking what the differences were. No need to get all hostile.

Some people don't have $1500 to drop on an AR that will likely never see any more action than a couple rapid fire sessions at the range. If you're out beating up your AR and shooting it to death, by all means, get something top tier. But if they're just plinking, where's the problem in advising someone to get a budget gun? It's going to work just as well for what they're using it for. Essentially, what you're doing is trying to sell a Ferrari to a little old lady that will use it to go pick up milk from the corner store.

Funny thing is, in all the time it took to write out your silly rant, you could have just listed the differences between the guns and been an actual help to the man.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 15:25
Not my concern to have to list every single difference. There is a search button and you all are well aware of the differences.

Originally Posted by cyphertext
Why the hate? You made a statement and I am asking for clarification. In another post, you talked about over gassing...what does that mean?

The differences that I am aware of between the Colt and the M&P Sport are:
1. No forward assist or dust cover on the Sport.
2. Barrel on the Sport is melonite treated vs. chrome lined on the Colt.
3. Barrel on the Sport is 1:8 twist 5r rifling vs. 1:7 on the colt.
4. Barrels are made of different grade steel.

Is there anything else?

And the fake Bolt Carrier Group that they pass off as a real one. Yeah lots of fail. Again folks can look it up on their own. My problem is when folks say that it is "Just as good" or "Great Deal". Then I have no problem calling it out. But for all the idiots out there I will be selling a few lesser ARs here shortly so keep up the faith that they are great rifles that way the resale value of these POS rifles will continue to maintain and I can make some money.

:wavey:

JaPes
02-06-2012, 15:41
Lately, it seems like every thread here degenerates into a useless argument. This place has become a horrible place to ask questions.

Some of us are new to this. For some of you, this is old and repetitive.

I can understand how answering the same question can get aggravating. If you don't feel like answering, no one is forcing you to.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 15:46
Lately, it seems like every thread here degenerates into a useless argument. This place has become a horrible place to ask questions.

Some of us are new to this. For some of you, this is old and repetitive.

I can understand how answering the same question can get aggravating. If you don't feel like answering, no one is forcing you to.

No. It is just the folks who wish to keep posting inferior firearms and claiming they are great ones are residing here at GT Black Rifle Forum vs. M4Carbine.net or SnipersHide where they wouldn't even be able to even hint around that what their claiming is true. I love GlockTalk but folks are just blowing smoke making those claims and I don't mind calling them on it.

My advice for anyone getting an AR is to get a real rifle and leave this other crap to the Airsoft crowd. Else if you buy one of these keep your "It's just as good as" comments to yourself. There is no bargain in an S&W Sport. It is just another rifle that folks throw their money at much like the DPMS Sport or Olympic Arms etc.

Ocean_glocker
02-06-2012, 15:52
What was you dealer's price? Academy sells them for $650 here, and they sell as soon as they hit the floor. The only shop I found one in wanted $700, and at that price, I passed.

Yeah I found them through another Forum, but I got this from Dana's Safety Supply in Sugar Hill, Ga. Real nice people. The Academy has them for $650 here to. Other local shops for a little more.

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 15:55
Not my concern to have to list every single difference. There is a search button and you all are well aware of the differences.



And the fake Bolt Carrier Group that they pass off as a real one. Yeah lots of fail. Again folks can look it up on their own. My problem is when folks say that it is "Just as good" or "Great Deal". Then I have no problem calling it out. But for all the idiots out there I will be selling a few lesser ARs here shortly so keep up the faith that they are great rifles that way the resale value of these POS rifles will continue to maintain and I can make some money.

:wavey:

I don't think anyone has said that it is "just as good" as the Noveske, or the Colt. That would probably be personal preference anyway. But what I am asking is about value, and what the higher priced rifle has that the lower priced rifle does not.

You mentioned "over gassed" and I have asked for an explanation. I don't know what you mean by that.

You have now mentioned "fake Bolt Carrier Group". Care to explain this? What makes it "fake"? What is wrong with the BCG in the M&P line?

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 15:59
No. It is just the folks who wish to keep posting inferior firearms and claiming they are great ones are residing here at GT Black Rifle Forum vs. M4Carbine.net or SnipersHide where they wouldn't even be able to even hint around that what their claiming is true. I love GlockTalk but folks are just blowing smoke making those claims and I don't mind calling them on it.

My advice for anyone getting an AR is to get a real rifle and leave this other crap to the Airsoft crowd. Else if you buy one of these keep your "It's just as good as" comments to yourself. There is no bargain in an S&W Sport. It is just another rifle that folks throw their money at much like the DPMS Sport or Olympic Arms etc.

So educate me, please! Tell me about a "real rifle" and why the Colt is the better value than the Sport. Show me something. I can tell you why a Remington 870 Wingmaster is a nicer shotgun than an 870 Express. I can tell you why a 700 BDL is a nicer rifle than a Remington 710. So please tell me what I am missing out by buying the Sport. I haven't made my purchase yet.

Leigh
02-06-2012, 16:04
You know what. . . I retract my statement. You deserve the M&P Sport.

Are you one of those civilian-trained "high-speed-low-drag" operators that could not find their *** with both hands or just someone who talks the talk yet has never walked the walk? I may be wrong but you certainly sound like it.

I probably learned the AR platform (thank you, Marine Corps) on YOUR tax dollars and it comes down to the ability of the individual and the principles of marksmanship. If you think otherwise, you are an idiot.

I don't know your age, nor do I care but I've owned Colts (AR15/AR18's) that were lemons and Bushmasters (early production) that were bulletproof.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 16:13
Are you one of those civilian-trained "high-speed-low-drag" operators that could not find their *** with both hands or just someone who talks the talk yet has never walked the walk? I may be wrong but you certainly sound like it.

I probably learned the AR platform (thank you, Marine Corps) on YOUR tax dollars and it comes down to the ability of the individual and the principles of marksmanship. If you think otherwise, you are an idiot.

I don't know your age, nor do I care but I've owned Colts (AR15/AR18's) that were lemons and Bushmasters (early production) that were bulletproof.

Thanks for the post. You are so high speed (thank you, Marin Corps). :rofl:

DrocTheGlock
02-06-2012, 16:15
Wow thats an awesome price and a great looking AR especially for that kind of money.
let us know how it shoots.
I just ordered my RockRiverArms 5.56 Tactical Operator 2 AR for $1000 on sale. Because the price they are running on them in 3 different set ups is amazing and well worth can't wait for it 2 get here. My neighbor had just got his 2 months ago and have been wanting it ever since

Leigh
02-06-2012, 16:17
Idiots infested the Black Rifle forums like a bunch of welfare moms?

Let's see, I bought my first (bad) Colt AR15 (called a "sporter" IIRC) around 1978-79.

After 45-50 rounds, 3 of the lugs were completely sheared off (factory 5.56 ball ammo).

In those days, there no BS couch commando "charts" or "tiers" of any AR-anything; either it functioned propertly, or it did not. Mine did not and I had to have it repaired.

As you have no problem calling out specific "brands" I have no problen calling out "your" qualifications for making some of the statements that you have.

You served in what branch of the service and for how long? Your MOS was what? LEO as a department armorer or active SWAT member?

Javelin
02-06-2012, 16:18
I don't think anyone has said that it is "just as good" as the Noveske, or the Colt. That would probably be personal preference anyway. But what I am asking is about value, and what the higher priced rifle has that the lower priced rifle does not.

You mentioned "over gassed" and I have asked for an explanation. I don't know what you mean by that.

You have now mentioned "fake Bolt Carrier Group". Care to explain this? What makes it "fake"? What is wrong with the BCG in the M&P line?

M16 Bolt carrier group vs. an AR-copy. Put them side by side and you can just feel the difference. The M16 Bolt is heavier and made of the correct steel. The overgassing is an issue at least for me. When using heavier full powered ammo my bolt would slam forward. If I throw a suppressor on it the bolt slams so hard back that it throws forward and lodges the bolt face into the star chamber where I have to use all my strength to pull the charging handle back.

A few times I have had to mortar my gun when the bolt stuck in the rear position. But I am a shooter and not some closet gun safe mole that most on here apparently are - the ever growing crowd of "It's just as good" :rofl:

Javelin
02-06-2012, 16:18
Let's see, I bought my first (bad) Colt AR15 (called a "sporter" IIRC) around 1978-79.

After 45-50 rounds, 3 of the lugs were completely sheared off (factory 5.56 ball ammo).

In those days, there no BS couch commando "charts" or "tiers" of any AR-anything; either it functioned propertly, or it did not. Mine did not and I had to have it repaired.

As you have no problem calling out specific "brands" I have no problen calling out "your" qualifications for making some of the statements that you have.

You served in what branch of the service and for how long? Your MOS was what? LEO as a department armorer or active SWAT member?

Naw, you're the Marine (thank you Marines). I can't compete with those credits.

:wavey:

Leigh
02-06-2012, 16:23
Thanks for the post. You are so high speed (thank you, Marin Corps). :rofl:

I'm sure leaving off the 'e' was a typo but that doesn't really even matter.

What does matter is that you appear to be making assertions and assumptions based on nothing at all.

All I am asking is that you back up your mouth with facts.

Yeah, that's exactly what I what I thought. :upeyes:

Javelin
02-06-2012, 16:26
I'm sure leaving off the 'e' was a typo but that doesn't really even matter.

What does matter is that you appear to be making assertions and assumptions based on nothing at all.

All I am asking is that you back up your mouth with facts.

Yeah, that's exactly what I what I thought. :upeyes:

Naw, you're right. There is no inherent value in a Colt 6920 vs. these other quality guns you are pitching. Get that Sportical from S&W, or your Bushmaster, save the money, and put it towards a personality.

:wavey:

Leigh
02-06-2012, 16:30
Naw, you're the Marine (thank you Marines). I can't compete with those credits.

:wavey:

Your sarcasm (and obvious lack of any credibility) indicates that you have access to a website and little else.

I do not add people to "ignore lists" as that is childish but I have seen enough of your uneducated statements to check out a few more intelligent threads.

Oh, and I was never "high speed" (MOS 0352, look it up there, sport) I just served my country but believe me, you couldn't hold a Marine's (ANY Marine) jock strap.

Adios.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 16:33
Your sarcasm (and obvious lack of any credibility) indicates that you have access to a website and little else.

I do not add people to "ignore lists" as that is childish but I have seen enough of your uneducated statements to check out a few more intelligent threads.

Oh, and I was never "high speed" (MOS 0352, look it up there, sport) I just served my country but believe me, you couldn't hold a Marine's (ANY Marine) jock strap.

Adios.

You Marines think really highly of yourselves I see. MOS 0352 means nothing to me but Thank you for your service.

:wavey:

J_P
02-06-2012, 16:53
http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/02/which-brand-of-ar15-is-best.html this will help some that dont know what mil-spec mean's this also helped me alot when I started looking into geting an AR-15

WoodenPlank
02-06-2012, 17:08
Not my concern to have to list every single difference. There is a search button and you all are well aware of the differences.



And the fake Bolt Carrier Group that they pass off as a real one. Yeah lots of fail. Again folks can look it up on their own. My problem is when folks say that it is "Just as good" or "Great Deal". Then I have no problem calling it out. But for all the idiots out there I will be selling a few lesser ARs here shortly so keep up the faith that they are great rifles that way the resale value of these POS rifles will continue to maintain and I can make some money.

:wavey:

OTHER than being a semi-auto carrier, what's wrong with the S&W carrier?

I don't think anyone has said that it is "just as good" as the Noveske, or the Colt. That would probably be personal preference anyway. But what I am asking is about value, and what the higher priced rifle has that the lower priced rifle does not.

You mentioned "over gassed" and I have asked for an explanation. I don't know what you mean by that.

You have now mentioned "fake Bolt Carrier Group". Care to explain this? What makes it "fake"? What is wrong with the BCG in the M&P line?

Over-gassed refers to the gas port in the barrel. Larger gas port allows more gas into the gas tube. This increases reliability with weaker (read: many .223 loads) ammo, but can lead to problems when using mil-spec 5.56 ammo. The hotter ammo produces more gas, which leads to the bolt coming back with greater velocity. It can cause battering of internal parts, greater felt recoil, greater erosion in some areas, and more fouling in the action. Add a suppressor to the mix, and the problem gets even worse.

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 17:19
Over-gassed refers to the gas port in the barrel. Larger gas port allows more gas into the gas tube. This increases reliability with weaker (read: many .223 loads) ammo, but can lead to problems when using mil-spec 5.56 ammo. The hotter ammo produces more gas, which leads to the bolt coming back with greater velocity. It can cause battering of internal parts, greater felt recoil, greater erosion in some areas, and more fouling in the action. Add a suppressor to the mix, and the problem gets even worse.

Thank you. So is this an occurrence that mainly shows up in a rifle marketed to more of a sportsman / enthusiast vs. a rifle that may be marketed toward military or LEO? Does the Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske, or others share this same type of issue?

I'm assuming that a civilian is more likely to run .223 through the rifle than military or LEO.

WoodenPlank
02-06-2012, 17:25
Thank you. So is this an occurrence that mainly shows up in a rifle marketed to more of a sportsman / enthusiast vs. a rifle that may be marketed toward military or LEO? Does the Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske, or others share this same type of issue?

I'm assuming that a civilian is more likely to run .223 through the rifle than military or LEO.

It varies widely between manufacturers, and even barrel/upper models. For example, Colt 10.5" barrels tend to have much larger gas ports, and are known for eating anything. They are also known for being horribly overgassed with 5.56 ammo, and when suppressed. LMT 10.5" uppers, on the other hand, use smaller ports. Mine will not reliably feed Tula or some brass-cased .223 ammo without a Noveske KX3 installed, but runs fine on 5.56 without it. The KX3 increases the pressure and dwell time in the gas system, increasing reliability. If I were to switch from the KX3 to a suppressor, I would end up with basically the same situation as I have now with the KX3.

I believe most non-NFA Colt uppers have more properly sized gas ports, but I haven't really looked into it that hard. I know both of the Colt M4A1 uppers I have owned did not run well on Wolf or Tula, but I never really nailed down a specific reason why.

joecoastie
02-06-2012, 17:25
You Marines think really highly of yourselves I see........
:wavey:

Yeah, there's a reason for it.

WoodenPlank
02-06-2012, 17:26
Yeah, there's a reason for it.

Yeah, they're all crazy.. :whistling:

Javelin
02-06-2012, 17:31
Yeah, there's a reason for it.

Yep. Completely forget that there are other branches and other MO/MOS's in the Armed Forces. I don't care to get into the who's jock strap is bigger game on the errornet to prove an arbitrary point. It's just not worth it.

There are so many companies as of late throwing their hats into the AR builds. Some do a great job and others don't. I have grown tired of the cheapie builds that I too had fallen for in the past and purchased only to be let down. Those that choose to not be aware of this are either completely ignorant of the fact or are ignoring it. I view the AR platform as a purpose built rifle not some range toy... but that's fine if you want a range toy just so long as folks don't kid others that it is the same as one that is built of quality components and assembled correctly with solid QA/QC.

:wavey:

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 17:37
http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/02/which-brand-of-ar15-is-best.html this will help some that dont know what mil-spec mean's this also helped me alot when I started looking into geting an AR-15

Thanks for the link!

JaPes
02-06-2012, 17:47
http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/02/which-brand-of-ar15-is-best.html this will help some that dont know what mil-spec mean's this also helped me alot when I started looking into geting an AR-15


Thanks for the link!

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 18:06
Javelin,
Back to the bolt carrier group difference...As WoodenPlank asked, is there an issue with a semi-auto rifle having the lighter bolt carrier?

This is a difference that I was not aware of. From what I had read, I thought the S&W bolts went through all the QC/QA tests listed on the chart. I thought the S&W had the same type of BCG as the others.

These are the types of things I would like to know. I don't feel that the M&P Sport is a bad purchase, if you understand what you are getting and what you are giving up at that price point. That is what would determine value. Some things I may be willing to give up to meet a certain price, where other features may be must have at any price.

joecoastie
02-06-2012, 18:21
Yeah, they're all crazy.. :whistling:

More like they've earned it.

I feel you read a little too much into what people were saying about the Sport, it didn't really seem to me that anyone was trying to put it in the same category as a Colt or Noveske. More like most of us that own Sports feel that they meet our needs. I could understand if the Sport and the Colt were both $900ish, obviously I would get the Colt. But that isn't the case, there is a significant price difference. You're obviously happy with your Noveskes and those of us with Sports are happy with them, so there you go, both groups are happy.

bmoore
02-06-2012, 18:29
No. It is just the folks who wish to keep posting inferior firearms and claiming they are great ones are residing here at GT Black Rifle Forum vs. M4Carbine.net or SnipersHide where they wouldn't even be able to even hint around that what their claiming is true. I love GlockTalk but folks are just blowing smoke making those claims and I don't mind calling them on it.

My advice for anyone getting an AR is to get a real rifle and leave this other crap to the Airsoft crowd. Else if you buy one of these keep your "It's just as good as" comments to yourself. There is no bargain in an S&W Sport. It is just another rifle that folks throw their money at much like the DPMS Sport or Olympic Arms etc.

Ive really tried to not post in this thread but please do us all a favor. Either stay over on M4carbine (where everyones life is on the line with the rifle they buy-----we know you guys are so hardcore it hurts)...........OR buy a glucometer and check your blood sugar. If it is below 70 drink some orange juice or eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwee. This will probably make your responses seem not so retarded once you get your sugar up. Glucose to the brain is important.

If you think this comment by me is outlandish or off the wall in anyway........please please please fill us all in on how many gun fights you have been in and how all your top tier Noveskes have saved your tail. Because Im betting all those Noveskes do is show up in online forum picture threads. Peace.

Javelin
02-06-2012, 18:37
Javelin,
Back to the bolt carrier group difference...As WoodenPlank asked, is there an issue with a semi-auto rifle having the lighter bolt carrier?

This is a difference that I was not aware of. From what I had read, I thought the S&W bolts went through all the QC/QA tests listed on the chart. I thought the S&W had the same type of BCG as the others.

These are the types of things I would like to know. I don't feel that the M&P Sport is a bad purchase, if you understand what you are getting and what you are giving up at that price point. That is what would determine value. Some things I may be willing to give up to meet a certain price, where other features may be must have at any price.

I could see the point you are making. The sport is just not cheap enough to justify purchasing it when for a few hundred bucks one can get a real AR with a real M16 bolt and a solid platform that they can build on.

carloglock19
02-06-2012, 18:41
Just got back from the range! I'm loving this rifle! Shooting lefty there was no concern with brass in the face. I shot decent group for indoor shooting (25yds). My wife actually enjoyed shooting zombie targets with it! Pic later.

In regards to optics, I'm sure at some point I will, but I'm in no rush. I'm a traditionalist I'm gonna shoot irons. All electronics fail at one time or another for many reasons, so I'm gonna get proficient with the irons.

I wouldn't consider myself a 'Mall Ninja' or 'Coach Commando', just an enthusiast. and if SHTF God forbid, I'm gonna grab my shotgun... maybe my wife would take the AR :)

Good report man the M&P15s are good rifles, that reminds me I have to hit the range with my son soon my MOE has been sitting quiet for a while now! Enjoy the rifle!

Javelin
02-06-2012, 18:42
Ive really tried to not post in this thread but please do us all a favor. Either stay over on M4carbine (where everyones life is on the line with the rifle they buy-----we know you guys are so hardcore it hurts)...........OR buy a glucometer and check your blood sugar. If it is below 70 drink some orange juice or eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwee. This will probably make your responses seem not so retarded once you get your sugar up. Glucose to the brain is important.

If you think this comment by me is outlandish or off the wall in anyway........please please please fill us all in on how many gun fights you have been in and how all your top tier Noveskes have saved your tail. Because Im betting all those Noveskes do is show up in online forum picture threads. Peace.

I love the personal attacks. Especially from the likes of you.

And yeah I have probably been in a few fire fights... not sure the gun saved my life as my training did... I was using a Colt at the time FWIW.

But I am sure you would like to share your story of when you first earned your CIB or Purple Heart? I would be very interested in hearing it.

RMTactical
02-06-2012, 18:47
Congrats!!

bmoore
02-06-2012, 19:07
I love the personal attacks. Especially from the likes of you.

And yeah I have probably been in a few fire fights... not sure the gun saved my life as my training did... I was using a Colt at the time FWIW.

But I am sure you would like to share your story of when you first earned your CIB or Purple Heart? I would be very interested in hearing it.

Delete to keep this from being a standard black rifle forum thread.

JaPes
02-06-2012, 19:25
wow... this thread has gone way off course

Javelin
02-06-2012, 19:34
wow... this thread has gone way off course

All the way from Marines are awesome to blood sugar levels and diet.


Are you not entertained? :tongueout:


:rofl:

bmoore
02-06-2012, 19:39
wow... this thread has gone way off course

Big time, I will delete mine. Otherwise this will turn into the standard Black rifle forum thread.

Kona dawg
02-06-2012, 19:43
For those ofbyou interested I just ordered one fron sportsmans outdoor super store for 599

joecoastie
02-06-2012, 19:47
I believe this has been posted before, here's a Sport that somehow made it through a week long course at Gunsite.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

Ocean_glocker
02-06-2012, 20:06
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...

slickt0mmy
02-06-2012, 20:17
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...

I, for one, am happy for you. The Sport is a great rifle for the money, regardless of what some of the Delta Bravos on here will say. :upeyes:

If it works for you, as it does thousands of others (including me), shoot it and enjoy it. Some people just feel the need to justify their $1500 purchases when you can have just as much fun for $600. :supergrin:

cyphertext
02-06-2012, 20:33
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...

You are right, and I apologize for my part in hijacking your thread. I think you got a good rifle at one heckuva sweetheart price. I would have been all over it at that price.

Congrats on your purchase! If I find one, I'm getting one for myself. If I find that I want to upgrade, then fine, my boy will love shooting it. He has the S&W M&P 15-22, and it doesn't have the forward assist or dustcover either. :supergrin:

Ruggles
02-06-2012, 20:44
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...


Honestly this is a "tough" sub forum on Glock Talk IMO. Lots of anger and insults flying in here. Some great posters but a bunch of know it alls as well. Don't let it get you down :wavey:

joecoastie
02-06-2012, 21:05
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...

My apologies for contributing to the derailment of your thread. I feel you and I are in the same boat, after an honest assessment of my needs and the M&P Sport I felt it was the perfect rifle for me. Unfortunately it seems some people are offended by the fact that some of us feel that a more affordable rifle meets our needs. The tribalism and emotion that so many associate with their brand choices is one of the things that turns me off to much of the AR "community".

JaPes
02-06-2012, 21:09
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...

I bought a 15-Sport for the same reasons. You're not alone. Congrats again on your new rifle!

:grouphug:

JaPes
02-06-2012, 21:12
All the way from Marines are awesome to blood sugar levels and diet.


Are you not entertained? :tongueout:


:rofl:

No matter what goes on, no matter how heated the exchanges get, I'll always click on that link in your sig that gets shelter dogs free food:

Click HERE daily to give food for animals in a shelter for free! (http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3)

:supergrin:

MD357
02-06-2012, 22:01
Ive really tried to not post in this thread but please do us all a favor. Either stay over on M4carbine (where everyones life is on the line with the rifle they buy-----we know you guys are so hardcore it hurts)...........OR buy a glucometer and check your blood sugar. If it is below 70 drink some orange juice or eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwee. This will probably make your responses seem not so retarded once you get your sugar up. Glucose to the brain is important.

If you think this comment by me is outlandish or off the wall in anyway........please please please fill us all in on how many gun fights you have been in and how all your top tier Noveskes have saved your tail. Because Im betting all those Noveskes do is show up in online forum picture threads. Peace.


:rofl: Man that's just straight up hilarious. Sums up the internet heros perfectly.


BTW, I just picked up one of these S&W's just to piss off the chartologists out there. Heck of a little AR for $609 OTD.

carloglock19
02-07-2012, 04:43
What do the last 50-60 posts have to do with me buying my first rifle?

I mean really, I did my research, I knew what I wanted and what would suit MY needs. I get it and I was excited to share with my fellow Glock enthusiasts and this is the reception. oh well...
:goodpost:

nyycanseco33
02-07-2012, 04:48
I have an M&P 15 with EOtech sight and I absolutely love it


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

22rtf2
02-07-2012, 07:26
http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/02/which-brand-of-ar15-is-best.html this will help some that dont know what mil-spec mean's this also helped me alot when I started looking into geting an AR-15

So Noveske is CLOSE to milspec.

That won't make the "rich", fanboys happy. :embarassed:

TangoFoxtrot
02-07-2012, 07:47
Honestly this is a "tough" sub forum on Glock Talk IMO. Lots of anger and insults flying in here. Some great posters but a bunch of know it alls as well. Don't let it get you down :wavey:


Well stated! The closest some here have ever been in a firefight is with their charcoal grills, let alone what is "the best" fighting rifle. You but what you can afford and enjoy it, don't let a few chuckheads discourage you.

cyphertext
02-07-2012, 08:23
Well stated! The closest some here have ever been in a firefight is with their charcoal grills, let alone what is "the best" fighting rifle. You but what you can afford and enjoy it, don't let a few chuckheads discourage you.

When I was active duty, I was in a firefight with my Kiwi shoe polish. Burnt a big hole in the carpet of the living room. Does that count? :embarassed:

Contact
02-07-2012, 08:28
I feel as though I fell and hit my head, and when I woke up I was back in the 1911 vs. Glock forums.

It ends up being the same argument over and over again, and if you don't spend $3500 on a one-off custom made 1911 that was made on machines lubricated with the blood of poor people, it's a piece of garbage, and will inevitably cost you your life.

Has the Colt 1911 and the Colt AR brought a lot of guys back home safely? Absolutely. No question about it, but so have Glocks, so have M&P15's, so have Bushmasters, so have...so have...so have... Does that mean that anything that doesn't have a Colt logo on it is a piece of crap, just because it's half the cost?

I've got a Kimber 1911, has never jammed on me.
I've got a Glock 23 and 27, has never jammed on me.
I've got a M&P15 Sport, has never jammed on me.
I had a Taurus TCP .380, (once I got through the recommended break in period), it never jammed on me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is while new users are browsing these forums, there should be a bit of understanding that there are users on here that are true Firearm Enthusiasts, and there are other users on here that are just Tacticool Fanboys that use their $4,000 rifles outfitted with their flashlights, lasers, bi-pods, tactical salt & pepper shaker, $700 optics, and portable ghillie suit to punch holes in paper and shoot the occasional prairie dog, and think that overspending and buying all kinds of gadgets makes them an authority on something.

TangoFoxtrot
02-07-2012, 10:50
When I was active duty, I was in a firefight with my Kiwi shoe polish. Burnt a big hole in the carpet of the living room. Does that count? :embarassed:

Hell Yeah!:supergrin:

Javelin
02-07-2012, 11:47
I feel as though I fell and hit my head, and when I woke up I was back in the 1911 vs. Glock forums.

It ends up being the same argument over and over again, and if you don't spend $3500 on a one-off custom made 1911 that was made on machines lubricated with the blood of poor people, it's a piece of garbage, and will inevitably cost you your life.

Has the Colt 1911 and the Colt AR brought a lot of guys back home safely? Absolutely. No question about it, but so have Glocks, so have M&P15's, so have Bushmasters, so have...so have...so have... Does that mean that anything that doesn't have a Colt logo on it is a piece of crap, just because it's half the cost?

I've got a Kimber 1911, has never jammed on me.
I've got a Glock 23 and 27, has never jammed on me.
I've got a M&P15 Sport, has never jammed on me.
I had a Taurus TCP .380, (once I got through the recommended break in period), it never jammed on me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is while new users are browsing these forums, there should be a bit of understanding that there are users on here that are true Firearm Enthusiasts, and there are other users on here that are just Tacticool Fanboys that use their $4,000 rifles outfitted with their flashlights, lasers, bi-pods, tactical salt & pepper shaker, $700 optics, and portable ghillie suit to punch holes in paper and shoot the occasional prairie dog, and think that overspending and buying all kinds of gadgets makes them an authority on something.

I see what you are saying. You spend money for quality stuff and you are a Tacticool Fanboy.

But you see that is where you need to put that you are an NRA Firearms Instructor at the bottom of your tagline so that everyone knows how much of an expert you really are?

How long was that class again? Oh yeah a whole weekend if my memory serves me.

:rofl:

Javelin
02-07-2012, 11:59
I don't consider myself an authority but a well informed customer. And yes I will take my quality stuff and some of you can sit and stroke your egos regarding how awesome you all are and continue the put downs one after another about how much other people don't know what they are talking about and that you somehow found the "holy grail" of bargain bin pricing. But that is a disservice to new comers looking to get into a quality weapon.

Some of us know what we speak of because:
#1 we have purchased these inferior ARs personally in the past and got rid of them because they are junk
#2 actually done more than go to the local gun shop & range
#3 some of us even had our shooting sports pay for our collegiate NCAA scholarships - you know one of those Tactic-Cool fanboys as you call me I guess.

And you guys are moaning over a few hundred bucks in buying a complete knock-off vs. a quality firearm? My Anschutz cost a little under $6K for a .22LR and I couldn't even imagine what you folks would say about that one. The bottom line is Quality = Money. And to suggest anything different is just inane.

But as a tacticool guy that I guess you are calling me - I do recommend Noveske Rifles. Worth every penny (even though the optics do cost a little more than $700 but who's counting) ;)

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/2439/edited4noveskebag.jpg




And in true "Bac 1911 forum style" I will post some pictures.

I also highly recommend the Noveske 8" in 300BLK that just came out as well. I really like the new Gen II lowers.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2861/noveske3001edited.jpg

Or the 5.56 version (bottom) Noveske w/ Switchblock is also a great choice.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4362/edited3novesketwins.jpg

Javelin
02-07-2012, 12:12
/Deleted

JASV.17
02-07-2012, 12:35
If you get gun oil on your wife's table runner, she's going to 300 blackout your hind-end.


:supergrin:

Awesome rifles.

OP, congrats on your rifle and enjoy it!

Detectorist
02-07-2012, 13:24
Sounds like a great buy. I hope you enjoy it and please ignore the naysayers on here. They are the same ones who were so negative with my DPMS Classic purchase. I enjoyed the heck out of that rifle with not a single malfunction.

The bottom line is you get what you can afford and then shoot it and enjoy it.

phil evans
02-07-2012, 14:12
The bottom line is you get what you can afford and then shoot it and enjoy it.

that is exactly what i did,
i lurked and performed due diligence,
then its a S&W sport, my first AR.

for instance:
i have a S&B 3-12x50 A9, on a remington 700, with a .308 21" hart .75" barrel, jewell trigger, glassed boyd's.
it shoots .234moa, so i do know where to put my value.

cyphertext
02-07-2012, 14:51
Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.

The M&P Sport is the same type of deal. It represents a good VALUE to a shooter that may only shoot it once a month and run 100 rounds through it at the range. Or, in my case, a shooter that wants a light rifle with high capacity to hunt hogs with a few times a year. While the Sport may not be the same quality as your Noveske, it is a good value to this type of use. It may, or may not, hold up for heavy use day in and day out, but that is not the target market either.

cyphertext
02-07-2012, 14:59
[QUOTE=Javelin;18543250]
I also highly recommend the Noveske 8" in 300BLK that just came out as well. I really like the new Gen II lowers.
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2861/noveske3001edited.jpg


Is that rifle taking a queue from the Sport with the integrated trigger guard? :tongueout: I kid, I kid! :supergrin:

Nice rifle, and as far as the Anschutz, if you shoot the competitions where that level of quality is needed to compete, making it a good value for you, then no beef here. What kind of bulk pack ammo gives you the best groups though? :supergrin:

slickt0mmy
02-07-2012, 15:31
Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.

The M&P Sport is the same type of deal. It represents a good VALUE to a shooter that may only shoot it once a month and run 100 rounds through it at the range. Or, in my case, a shooter that wants a light rifle with high capacity to hunt hogs with a few times a year. While the Sport may not be the same quality as your Noveske, it is a good value to this type of use. It may, or may not, hold up for heavy use day in and day out, but that is not the target market either.

This man speaks the truth. As I said before, no point in telling a grandma to buy a Ferrari if all she's using it for is to pick up milk from the corner store.

Ruggles
02-07-2012, 16:51
I see what you are saying. You spend money for quality stuff and you are a Tacticool Fanboy.

But you see that is where you need to put that you are an NRA Firearms Instructor at the bottom of your tagline so that everyone knows how much of an expert you really are?

How long was that class again? Oh yeah a whole weekend if my memory serves me.

:rofl:

I don't think spending money on any firearms makes you a Tacticool Fanboy, talking trash about what other people shoot does. Not saying you were doing that at all but we all know some folks on here do. :wavey:

Somebody buys a less expensive AR and post almost anything about it and the AR attack dogs come out in force. Throwing comments about "combat ready" and "military grade" out as if that was relevant in every case, it simply is not. Not to mention those of us who served know all to well "military grade" is not all that great sometimes :rofl:

It is more rampent on this sub forum than anywhere else on Glock Talk IMO. The 1911 forum is not nearly this aggressive and the cost difference between 1911s is even greater than ARs. :dunno:

To each their own but I think that there is a wee bit of armchair commando in this forum at times :wavey:

I only have 2 ARs, not sure how much they cost in total as I pieced them together over time. I would guess $1100 - $1200 each. One is a CMMG lower with a LMT upper and the other is a LRB lower with a BCM upper. Many different companies make up the rest of the guns. I like them and they work so that is all I am concerned with. I am blessed to where I could have purchased whatever maker I wanted but I have no need to spend more for my use. Not to mention why spend money on ARs when there are so many 1911s to buy! :)

Just seems odd to me that people are so eager to insult what others buy.

pleaforwar
02-07-2012, 22:45
To the OP, congrats on your rifle. There is nothing wrong, especially as an entry rifle, with a S&W. If you run into issues, address them, learn, and drive on. Even MSG Paul Howe (of Somalia notoriety) has ran DPMS rifles with success (as loaners). If you want this rifle to be your fun gun I think it will fill your needs just fine. Who cares if you run irons or an optic made in Botswana if it's a fun gun? I sure as hell don't.

To everyone else,
My post count has slowed down tremendously here over the last year and primarily for one reason. So many people never make an attempt to back up their stance with anything more than crap they read on Google. I don't give a rat's behind if you disagree with me. All I care is that you show something substantial to back it up.

For instance, the "My $30 optic is just as nice as an Aimpoint, Trijicon, etc" stance can go like this:
A)"Don't listen to all the stupid mall-ninjas out there who tell you that you need to throw down some serious cash for a good optic. My $30 optic from Botswana has owned noobs 4 real!!! I never had a problem with it! I love shooting better than those snobs with their $10k rifles!"

or

B)" I think you will be just fine with brand X optic because my experience has shown it will fit your niche well. I have used brand x optic on my rifle for well over a year now, after shooting XXXX rounds, and it has performed exceptionally. I have never had a zero shift, nor have I experienced a deviation from claimed battery life. I can't claim that all brands of optics in this price range will work well for you, but my personal experience with this brand has been superb"

I hope most of you can see what is wrong with the first argument. It is combative in nature and shows no point of reference (how well used the optic is, shooting ability of the "snobs", etc). These comments are what make SME's run away from contributing in forums. The second statement shows humility, experience, and reasoning. I pray for the day this forum has a majority of members who are willing to discuss these topics in this manner (but not holding my breath).

On the flipside, the same goes for people who mouth away about their ridiculously awesome rifles. If you claim to know why your rifle is better than everything else in the world, show some reasoning behind it rather than referencing one or two sources as the be-all-end-all of the AR-15 world. Tell us how you know what you know.


Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.


I'd love to comment on this. I was blessed with the opportunity to shoot on the Marine Corps Skeet Team back in 2007 and had a blast. My true origins in gun enthusiasm came from the skeet fields.

I think a more fair comparison between shotguns would be with shotguns meant for the same purpose. While shotguns and AR's are completely different, there is some reflection between the "tiers" of options. My comparison is with over/under skeet type shotguns (because comparing a Benelli M4 and a Holland & Holland is useless).

At the top you have your Perazzi's, Kolar's, Kreighoff's, and the upper-end Beretta's, etc.

At the middle you have your Citori's, most of your Beretta's, various Remington's, Winchester 101's, SKB's, etc.

At the bottom you have your Russian type over-under shotguns and other cheaper options that people use for skeet. I have yet to meet a competitive shooter who uses, for instance, a Spartan over/under.

So what are the differences? For the most part they are creature comforts between the middle range and upper range shotguns. A quality Citori in the hand of a skilled skeet shooter will perform just as well as a Perazzi. Will it be as finely built, intricatly detailed as the Perazzi? No, but it will shoot well and be competitive. This is how I feel about the differences between models like the Colt 6920 and the KAC SR-15. Both are made of exceptional quality and will run well, but one has many more added comforts than the other.

As for the bottom range, they will work great for many people who approach the game of skeet for fun. These aren't the people who shoot 3 cases a weekend of Remington STS or Winchester AA's. These are typically the people who shoot a couple boxes of Estate a month and shoot for the fun of it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, just as long as they don't claim to be the next Todd Bender.

Cheers,
Dan

MD357
02-07-2012, 22:58
I've seen all types of Gear Queers that tout brand X or Y over the years, defending it like it's their first born child. But just like with anything else owning ARs and shooting them are two different things. Notice how pristine those Noveskes look. :whistling: I'm not impressed by anything Javelin says because he's yet to back up ANYTHING outside of anecdotes that are far from concrete.

If these guns aren't a great value then I'd like someone to PROVE it to me. Show me how many rounds, and what broke, and why this happens to more than one person.

The truth is that value is all over the gun world and you just have to know where to find it.

But hey what do I know? SEAL Team 6 will NOT be calling me in the next 48hrs like some others pretend. :cool:

Javelin
02-07-2012, 22:58
Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.

The M&P Sport is the same type of deal. It represents a good VALUE to a shooter that may only shoot it once a month and run 100 rounds through it at the range. Or, in my case, a shooter that wants a light rifle with high capacity to hunt hogs with a few times a year. While the Sport may not be the same quality as your Noveske, it is a good value to this type of use. It may, or may not, hold up for heavy use day in and day out, but that is not the target market either.

Ok I will answer it. Again, I am not a subject matter expert - just an informed buyer because I have purchased many and shot my entire life.

First, I don't really know how to make the parable from basic built ARs to competition shotguns. I can understand what you are saying here as I shoot a new Browning Citori for Skeet & Trap. Browning really stepped up their game as it has the new backbored barrels like the Perazzi and Beretta shotguns. I don't think I would have even considered the Citori had they not started to compete with the upper echelons and probably would have went with Beretta. I had to make an educated decision - I did consider a used Perazzi from a young shooter on the US Shooting Team that was selling theirs but @ $14K I just couldn't bring myself to pull that trigger.

So the price difference between my $2,900 Citori and your fine hand made Perazzi shotguns are $10K (if not more) while the difference between a S&W Sporter and a real AR is like $300. Really not that big of difference. :dunno:

Javelin
02-07-2012, 23:03
I've seen all types of Gear Queers that tout brand X or Y over the years, defending it like it's their first born child. But just like with anything else owning ARs and shooting them are two different things. Notice how pristine those Noveskes look. :whistling: I'm not impressed by anything Javelin says because he's yet to back up ANYTHING outside of anecdotes that are far from concrete.

If these guns aren't a great value then I'd like someone to PROVE it to me. Show me how many rounds, and what broke, and why this happens to more than one person.

The truth is that value is all over the gun world and you just have to know where to find it.

But hey what do I know? SEAL Team 6 will NOT be calling me in the next 48hrs like some others pretend. :cool:

I'm not sure where you are going with this. I don't have to prove anything to you sir. You can hit the search button if you like and go to other sites that will give in-depth pictorial information about your round counts, what broke, etc. There are many knowledgeable people out there - I took the time to post the pics of my guns and gave you my advice. Buy what you want.

But just like with anything else owning ARs and shooting them are two different things. Notice how pristine those Noveskes look.
EDIT: Awh I see there... I 'prove' I own them but you feel they are 'too nice' like I need to throw them on the ground in my driveway and rough them up a bit (true story someone did that once on AR15.com) and so now you're trying to bust my gonads and claim I don't actually shoot them. I see.... you got me there. I don't know how I would prove to you that I shoot without giving up my personal identity... but I'm sure you could come up with something else to personally attack me with. So I guess you'll just have me in suspense while I wait for you to come up with something else ... :upeyes:

MD357
02-07-2012, 23:12
I'm not sure where you are going with this. I don't have to prove anything to you sir. You can hit the search button if you like and go to other sites that will give in-depth pictorial information about your round counts, what broke, etc. There are many knowledgeable people out there - I took the time to post the pics of my guns and gave you my advice. Buy what you want.

I'm just calling you out on your BS and as expected you displace any responsibility on your claims about this rifle.

and..... to quote what plea for war just said....

On the flipside, the same goes for people who mouth away about their ridiculously awesome rifles. If you claim to know why your rifle is better than everything else in the world, show some reasoning behind it rather than referencing one or two sources as the be-all-end-all of the AR-15 world. Tell us how you know what you know.

:rofl:

Notice how you embody that statement?

Javelin
02-07-2012, 23:15
I'm just calling you out on your BS and as expected you displace any responsibility on your claims about this rifle.

and..... to quote what plea for war just said....



:rofl:

Notice how you embody that statement?

You are so right. You totally showed me.


You're a hero in your own basement my friend :wavey:

MD357
02-07-2012, 23:43
You are so right. You totally showed me.


You're a hero in your own basement my friend :wavey:

Wasn't trying to show YOU anything more of exposing a mentality so newbs can see what happens when someone asks a few simple questions about your experience. :cool:


God knows I'm no hero neither, I've yet to own a Noveske in a niche caliber. :embarassed:

Javelin
02-07-2012, 23:52
Wasn't trying to show YOU anything more of exposing a mentality so newbs can see what happens when someone asks a few simple questions about your experience. :cool:


God knows I'm no hero neither, I've yet to own a Noveske in a niche caliber. :embarassed:

I am not Mr. Likeable on the internet. I could really care less what folks think as I don't owe anyone anything. If folks want to dig deeper then by all means I hope they do and make an informed decision.

I am not a salesman, though apparently to you I am ... how you so gracefully put it unimpressive "Gear Queer". And coming from someone like Surf or Masad... 12311, MrMurphy, DJ, or even maybe Hail Caesar, etc it would mean something. But from you, not so much.

:wavey:

MD357
02-08-2012, 00:20
I am not Mr. Likeable on the internet.

I'm not really interested if you believe yourself to be an internet rebel or not. It's just entertaining to point out how you can't provide any substance to what you say.

I could really care less what folks think as I don't owe anyone anything. If folks want to dig deeper then by all means I hope they do and make an informed decision.

Ah, I think you're trying to say you COULDN'T care less what people think. Yet you want them to listen to you to make an informed decision.

Makes total sense. :cool:

What would someone have to gain by reading anything you've said? All you've done is given an OPINION on an AR you've yet to own or put through it's paces.

Javelin
02-08-2012, 00:22
I'm not really interested if you believe yourself to be an internet rebel or not. It's just entertaining to point out how you can't provide any substance to what you say.



Ah, I think you're trying to say you COULDN'T care less what people think. Yet you want them to listen to you to make an informed decision.

Makes total sense. :cool:

What would someone have to gain by reading anything you've said? All you've done is given an OPINION on an AR you've yet to own or put through it's paces.

Naw I like the Gear Queer label you gave me better. :rofl:

MD357
02-08-2012, 00:46
Naw I like the Gear Queer label you gave me better. :rofl:

Actually I was refering to a demographic so to speak.... however if you insist on the label it's definately something to look up to.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gear%20queer

Cheers. :drink:

USMCgs3
02-08-2012, 07:16
Repetitive... :brickwall: :brickwall:


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

TangoFoxtrot
02-08-2012, 08:27
Repetitive... :brickwall: :brickwall:


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Absolutely!:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:

Simpleman71
02-08-2012, 08:41
I have an AR made by s&w and it has seen some abuse (rain, mud, snow, dropped on concrete) it took the abuse and still fires flawalessy since day 1. I have a ton of friends who shoot all different brands of AR. My experience has taught me they are all not very far from each other in quality. The only difference I see is in branding. Ever heard of paying for a name? Well, it applies to guns also. I would trust a $400 glock with my life over any over priced 1911. Not bashing 1911's because someday I will own one but it is definatley not necesaary to spend $1,500 on one and say it is the ONLY gun that will save your life. What it comes down to is paying what you feel is a fair price for the product you are looking for. You are not any better a shooter, commando, or any other gay tacticool name just because you spent more than anybody else on a particular weapon. Some of you sound like woman fighting over who has the nicest most expensive shoes. Get over yourselves and just shoot what you prefer. leave others out of it. By the way, I served 21 years in the military and carried a rifle in Iraq so I do have a little experience. I didn't post this to argue with anyone just expressing my opinion so for those of you who like to argue on the internet don't waste your time, I have better things to do.

TangoFoxtrot
02-08-2012, 09:34
I have an AR made by s&w and it has seen some abuse (rain, mud, snow, dropped on concrete) it took the abuse and still fires flawalessy since day 1. I have a ton of friends who shoot all different brands of AR. My experience has taught me they are all not very far from each other in quality. The only difference I see is in branding. Ever heard of paying for a name? Well, it applies to guns also. I would trust a $400 glock with my life over any over priced 1911. Not bashing 1911's because someday I will own one but it is definatley not necesaary to spend $1,500 on one and say it is the ONLY gun that will save your life. What it comes down to is paying what you feel is a fair price for the product you are looking for. You are not any better a shooter, commando, or any other gay tacticool name just because you spent more than anybody else on a particular weapon. Some of you sound like woman fighting over who has the nicest most expensive shoes. Get over yourselves and just shoot what you prefer. leave others out of it. By the way, I served 21 years in the military and carried a rifle in Iraq so I do have a little experience. I didn't post this to argue with anyone just expressing my opinion so for those of you who like to argue on the internet don't waste your time, I have better things to do.

Very well stated! Great minds think alike. :supergrin:

slickt0mmy
02-08-2012, 10:03
Ocean_glocker, wouldn't it have been nice if this thread was 148 responses of people congratulating you on your purchase and being happy that you found a rifle that fits your needs? :rofl:

esh325
02-08-2012, 11:20
What a **** storm this thread turned into. Buying lower priced firearms, some times you get lucky, some times you don't. I think buying the higher priced firearm leaves out problems that might occur in the long run. The firearm might cycle well in the short term, but will it break 2 years from now? Of course maybe if you don't shoot much or use the rifles in less then ideal conditions, you might never see the benefits of the higher quality weapon. I never owned a S&W AR15, so I can't speak of their quality. Would like to hear how the OP does with his.

cyphertext
02-08-2012, 11:25
Ocean_glocker, wouldn't it have been nice if this thread was 148 responses of people congratulating you on your purchase and being happy that you found a rifle that fits your needs? :rofl:

I'm happy for him...jealous actually. The sub $600 Sport still eludes me, but I will keep hunting. Someone will get one in stock eventually!

Ruggles
02-08-2012, 11:36
I have an AR made by s&w and it has seen some abuse (rain, mud, snow, dropped on concrete) it took the abuse and still fires flawalessy since day 1. I have a ton of friends who shoot all different brands of AR. My experience has taught me they are all not very far from each other in quality. The only difference I see is in branding. Ever heard of paying for a name? Well, it applies to guns also. I would trust a $400 glock with my life over any over priced 1911. Not bashing 1911's because someday I will own one but it is definatley not necesaary to spend $1,500 on one and say it is the ONLY gun that will save your life. What it comes down to is paying what you feel is a fair price for the product you are looking for. You are not any better a shooter, commando, or any other gay tacticool name just because you spent more than anybody else on a particular weapon. Some of you sound like woman fighting over who has the nicest most expensive shoes. Get over yourselves and just shoot what you prefer. leave others out of it. By the way, I served 21 years in the military and carried a rifle in Iraq so I do have a little experience. I didn't post this to argue with anyone just expressing my opinion so for those of you who like to argue on the internet don't waste your time, I have better things to do.

Hey now don't be dragging the 1911 into this fray :rofl:

Ruggles
02-08-2012, 11:37
What a **** storm this thread turned into. Buying lower priced firearms, some times you get lucky, some times you don't. I think buying the higher priced firearm leaves out problems that might occur in the long run. The firearm might cycle well in the short term, but will it break 2 years from now? Of course maybe if you don't shoot much or use the rifles in less then ideal conditions, you might never see the benefits of the higher quality weapon. I never owned a S&W AR15, so I can't speak of their quality. Would like to hear how the OP does with his.

Yep took all of 5 post before the congrats turned to someone starting to insulting somebody else equipment :rofl:

FriscoCHL
02-08-2012, 11:56
I'm happy for him...jealous actually. The sub $600 Sport still eludes me, but I will keep hunting. Someone will get one in stock eventually!

Me too... I just paid $650 for mine. I could use the extra 80 bucks for more ammo.

Just don't tell the zombies. I don't want them starting at my house because I have an inferior rifle that will fail me.

cyphertext
02-08-2012, 12:45
Me too... I just paid $650 for mine. I could use the extra 80 bucks for more ammo.

Just don't tell the zombies. I don't want them starting at my house because I have an inferior rifle that will fail me.

Sounds like you found one at Academy? I haven't seen one in our area for less since the Cabela's opened up in Allen. Should have bought one during their grand opening sale, but at the time I thought it must be an inferior product at that price.

Saw a used one at the gun show over the weekend. Guy wanted $725 for it. He was insulted when I offered him $600.

supatrucka
02-08-2012, 17:11
I had a $1500 budget I was going to buy a S&W sport but I decided on a Windham ($899) just because I like what Mr. Dyke did by hiring most of his old employees back and I wanted to support the small and local guy. What ever works for you OP rock and roll

Simpleman71
02-08-2012, 18:03
Sorry about the 1911 bash, just trying to make a point. Fox trot, where were you in OIF 04-05? I was in Balad 05.

Ruggles
02-08-2012, 18:25
Sorry about the 1911 bash, just trying to make a point. Fox trot, where were you in OIF 04-05? I was in Balad 05.

No offense taken I just thought the "mood" needed to be lighten in this thread. The 1911 is fair game :)

TangoFoxtrot
02-09-2012, 07:30
Sorry about the 1911 bash, just trying to make a point. Fox trot, where were you in OIF 04-05? I was in Balad 05.

I was in Al Muthana province, Basrah, and Najaf. Returned home and retired in March 05

Ironbar
02-09-2012, 08:07
Yep took all of 5 post before the congrats turned to someone starting to insulting somebody else equipment :rofl:

Actually, the thread was going very well until Javelin chimed in at post #63. I suspect he has some anger issues.

I on the other hand will congratulate the OP on his purchase! I love Smith & Wesson products, and I think it will be a great rifle for what the OP intends!

glock031
02-09-2012, 08:52
Wow! At least these new posters are more realistic. They do realize we won't be getting any mission duty calls and the AR will be nothing more than a paper hole punch for 99.99% of the posters here. Also refreshing that they aren't bragging about clearing out a few empty buildings without ever being in a firefight but act as the authority on anything AR. I think we all played that game as kids as well.....:whistling:

Also looks as though someone had thier *** handed to them in this thread. Almost as bad as when the little iratie gunz smacked him around..

Congrats OP with your new purchase. That is one heck of a good deal!

cyphertext
02-09-2012, 09:25
Actually, the thread was going very well until Javelin chimed in at post #63. I suspect he has some anger issues.



To be fair, I goaded him in with post #56. If I would have just left it alone....but I thought these boards were for discussion.

He does have some valid points that there are some differences between the Sport and the Colt, Noveske, DD, etc. He just disagrees that saving $300 or more on the rifle makes it worthwhile. From what I have seen, it appears that the Sport owners, or soon to be Sport owners on this board understand those differences and are quite happy keeping that money in their pocket.

joecoastie
02-09-2012, 10:03
.....He does have some valid points that there are some differences between the Sport and the Colt, Noveske, DD, etc. He just disagrees that saving $300 or more on the rifle makes it worthwhile. From what I have seen, it appears that the Sport owners, or soon to be Sport owners on this board understand those differences and are quite happy keeping that money in their pocket.

That is one of the biggest arguments I hear against budget priced guns, "Its only a few hundred dollars more for the SuperSealDeathNinjaMcKillbot, why don't you just save up?" For some people on a tight budget that couple hundred bucks is a big amount. Others, like me, that could afford to spend more just don't want to spend that much on an AR.

cyphertext
02-09-2012, 11:05
That is one of the biggest arguments I hear against budget priced guns, "Its only a few hundred dollars more for the SuperSealDeathNinjaMcKillbot, why don't you just save up?" For some people on a tight budget that couple hundred bucks is a big amount. Others, like me, that could afford to spend more just don't want to spend that much on an AR.

Yep, I agree. Shooting is a hobby for me. A hobby that must fit in with family life and budget. That $300 difference is summer camp, or a season of lacrosse for my son, or another year on our hunting lease. The Sport would not be ran hard and shot a lot in our house. That is what we have the S&W M&P 15-22, the CMMG .22lr AR, and the Ruger 10/22 for. Those guns will see 500 to 1000 rounds in an outing!

Leigh
02-09-2012, 14:29
Wow! At least these new posters are more realistic. They do realize we won't be getting any mission duty calls and the AR will be nothing more than a paper hole punch for 99.99% of the posters here. Also refreshing that they aren't bragging about clearing out a few empty buildings without ever being in a firefight but act as the authority on anything AR. I think we all played that game as kids as well.....:whistling:

Also looks as though someone had thier *** handed to them in this thread. Almost as bad as when the little iratie gunz smacked him around..

Congrats OP with your new purchase. That is one heck of a good deal!

Probably one of the brightest replies in 7+ pages.
If anyone here is actually "running-and-gunning" in the real world, your weapon is "issued" to you and "paid" for by the American taxpayer.

That said, I bought my son one for Christmas ($649 OTD) and if a 15-year old boy cannot manage to tear something up, nobody can! :supergrin:

TangoFoxtrot
02-09-2012, 16:03
Probably one of the brightest replies in 7+ pages.
If anyone here is actually "running-and-gunning" in the real world, your weapon is "issued" to you and "paid" for by the American taxpayer.

That said, I bought my son one for Christmas ($649 OTD) and if a 15-year old boy cannot manage to tear something up, nobody can! :supergrin:


Ahhhh I run 'n'gun thats how I train and I'm 51, but I don't remember anyone paying for my rifle.

Rick Melear
02-09-2012, 16:25
Wow, read the first page and decided to jump in on the 7th. I have a Daniel Defense and a S&W MOE, added a S&W Sport to the mix a few months ago and can tell no difference. ACOG on the DD, EOtech on the MOA and a Primary Arms on the Sport, all have run with out fail. I treat me guns and optics with a who gives a crap attitude and have no regrets to them all. They all function fine.

Ruggles
02-09-2012, 16:50
Actually, the thread was going very well until Javelin chimed in at post #63. I suspect he has some anger issues.

I on the other hand will congratulate the OP on his purchase! I love Smith & Wesson products, and I think it will be a great rifle for what the OP intends!

I think calling "all cheap optics" a joke was a shot across the bow of many folks which started this thread's downward spiral. Sounds a bit snobbish to me :supergrin:

Made Man
02-09-2012, 18:08
Apparently S&W are 5R rifling 1/8 twist and Melonite treating more than the Sport's barrels. Skip to 1:25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQOeWE0bTKs&list=UUs5iRZoqlgf2YPtvjHfDdXw&index=1&feature=plcp

stopatrain
02-09-2012, 18:23
Nice deal.

eb31
02-09-2012, 18:33
Jealous. Not only would I love to pay under $600, I just want to find one in stock (in person) at one of my local shops. Can't seem to get my hands on one. Hell, I may just buy 2 at $600-$650.

Rick Melear
02-09-2012, 18:41
At $600, I did buy two, gave one to my brother and we are both pleased

cyphertext
02-09-2012, 20:26
Jealous. Not only would I love to pay under $600, I just want to find one in stock (in person) at one of my local shops. Can't seem to get my hands on one. Hell, I may just buy 2 at $600-$650.

I got the call from one of my shops yesterday. They had one come in. Didn't get it for under $600, but I finally got one. No more wasting time calling all the local shops or going to the gun shows only to come home empty handed.

JaPes
02-09-2012, 20:32
Congrats cyphertext!

cyphertext
02-09-2012, 20:52
Congrats cyphertext!

Thanks JaPes. Really wanting to get to the range and try it out.

Hour13
02-09-2012, 21:37
Some great posts here. The simple fact is, MOST of us don't need to run out and buy a $2,500 uber-rifle(including most of the people who have one). And for those of us who do WANT a "nicer" AR than a Sport...

It's an AR-15.

It's a modular design. You can start with a basic rifle, like the M&P Sport, and shoot the hell out of it. Then as you learn the gun, you can make changes to suit your style of shooting. Piece by piece, you can build the ultimate rifle for YOU. And when it's all done, you'll have your ideal rifle, plus most or all of the parts you'd need to put another Sport together.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn269/hour13/gun%20stuff/100_4661.jpg

I love my Sport. Already well over 1,000rds of cheap, nasty ammo down the pipe, and not a single FTF or problem of any kind. Aside from grips and rails, still in stock form. But on it's way to my house now is a DSA upper receiver, and today I received the port door & forward assist mechanism to assemble it with.

Given how flawlessly it has performed, these are the only two immediate drawbacks I feel need to be addressed. More upgrades will follow as time goes by, but as it is, I'm very happy with it.

Do I think a SEAL operator is likely to "ooh" and "ahh" over my gun? Lol, of course not.

Am I a SEAL operator, or on a SWAT team? No. I bend wrenches for a living, and happen to love guns, and shooting. And this AR is a SHOOTER.

I practice & train with it, as I do all of my guns. If I needed to, I would trust my life to this rifle 110%. But for me, an AR is NOT my primary weapon. I'm a civilian, my primary weapon is my EDC, an H&K .40 USP.

For me, this AR is affordable, fun to tinker on, and an absolute blast to shoot.

Perfect.

Ruggles
02-09-2012, 21:58
Some great posts here. The simple fact is, MOST of us don't need to run out and buy a $2,500 uber-rifle(including most of the people who have one). And for those of us who do WANT a "nicer" AR than a Sport...

It's an AR-15.

It's a modular design. You can start with a basic rifle, like the M&P Sport, and shoot the hell out of it. Then as you learn the gun, you can make changes to suit your style of shooting. Piece by piece, you can build the ultimate rifle for YOU. And when it's all done, you'll have your ideal rifle, plus most or all of the parts you'd need to put another Sport together.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn269/hour13/gun%20stuff/100_4661.jpg

I love my Sport. Already well over 1,000rds of cheap, nasty ammo down the pipe, and not a single FTF or problem of any kind. Aside from grips and rails, still in stock form. But on it's way to my house now is a DSA upper receiver, and today I received the port door & forward assist mechanism to assemble it with.

Given how flawlessly it has performed, these are the only two immediate drawbacks I feel need to be addressed. More upgrades will follow as time goes by, but as it is, I'm very happy with it.

Do I think a SEAL operator is likely to "ooh" and "ahh" over my gun? Lol, of course not.

Am I a SEAL operator, or on a SWAT team? No. I bend wrenches for a living, and happen to love guns, and shooting. And this AR is a SHOOTER.

I practice & train with it, as I do all of my guns. If I needed to, I would trust my life to this rifle 110%. But for me, an AR is NOT my primary weapon. I'm a civilian, my primary weapon is my EDC, an H&K .40 USP.

For me, this AR is affordable, fun to tinker on, and an absolute blast to shoot.

Perfect.

Good post :)

Let us know how the DSA turns out, I would like to give them a try someday. They darn fine FALs so I would think their ARs are good to go as well. :wavey:

Hour13
02-09-2012, 22:23
Good post :)

Let us know how the DSA turns out, I would like to give them a try someday. They darn fine FALs so I would think their ARs are good to go as well. :wavey:

Thanks bud, and will do. One of our regulars at the shop is a smith, he's the one who recommended the DSA to me. He's built several ARs using their parts, said he was impressed with the quality.

And if for any reason I don't like it... $75 won't kill me, lol.

Stripped upper was on sale for $60, and the parts kit for it was $15. I'll post up once I get it together for a range trip.
:supergrin:

TangoFoxtrot
02-10-2012, 07:35
Thanks JaPes. Really wanting to get to the range and try it out.

You won't be sorry.

cyphertext
02-10-2012, 12:26
Apparently S&W are 5R rifling 1/8 twist and Melonite treating more than the Sport's barrels. Skip to 1:25.



Why would Kyle Lamb be collaborating with a "bottom end" maker like S&W? :wavey:

I know that barrel is not the same as the one on the Sport, but interesting to see that the melonite treatment and 1:8 twist with 5R rifling is being put on what many would consider a higher end AR.

joecoastie
02-10-2012, 13:01
Why would Kyle Lamb be collaborating with a "bottom end" maker like S&W? :wavey:

I know that barrel is not the same as the one on the Sport, but interesting to see that the melonite treatment and 1:8 twist with 5R rifling is being put on what many would consider a higher end AR.

Actually, the Sport comes with the 1:8 5R melonite barrel.

cyphertext
02-10-2012, 14:27
Actually, the Sport comes with the 1:8 5R melonite barrel.

It does, but it is 4140 steel. The barrel on the VTAC II is 4150 CMV. Same coating and rifling, but made from different stock. I had to go look up the specs when I saw that video, because I wanted to know if it is the same barrel or not. It looks like the Sport and the new M&P 15 Tactical may share the same barrel. They match spec wise from what I can see anyway.

joecoastie
02-10-2012, 15:45
It does, but it is 4140 steel. The barrel on the VTAC II is 4150 CMV. Same coating and rifling, but made from different stock. I had to go look up the specs when I saw that video, because I wanted to know if it is the same barrel or not. It looks like the Sport and the new M&P 15 Tactical may share the same barrel. They match spec wise from what I can see anyway.

Good to know. :wavey:

Magelk
02-10-2012, 16:34
Why would Kyle Lamb be collaborating with a "bottom end" maker like S&W? :wavey:

I know that barrel is not the same as the one on the Sport, but interesting to see that the melonite treatment and 1:8 twist with 5R rifling is being put on what many would consider a higher end AR.


Maybe he's doing it for the money?:dunno:

pleaforwar
02-10-2012, 19:58
Why would Kyle Lamb be collaborating with a "bottom end" maker like S&W? :wavey:

I know that barrel is not the same as the one on the Sport, but interesting to see that the melonite treatment and 1:8 twist with 5R rifling is being put on what many would consider a higher end AR.

Just a FYI, but most well-known instructors have endorsed rifles. Pat Rogers has the BCM EAG rifle, Jeff Gonzales has the LWRC Tricon, Larry Vickers has done work with Daniel Defense, Mike Pannone has done work with Next Generation Arms, Jason Falla is apparently in the works with Centurion Arms, etc etc.

Also, keep in mind there is a reason that the VTAC rifle bears the company's name, and not the sport model. Now I can't speak for SGM Lamb because I have yet to train with him, but I regularly train/discuss with many people who have been through his courses, and I can't thin of a single guy who would look at the sport as anything more than a recreational rifle. There's nothing wrong with this, most shooters buy this rifle for that purpose.

This isn't a bash on S&W. I'd love to have a VTAC rifle, or a few of their other rifles (I'd still want a 1/7 or 1/8 barrel). All I am saying is that people should recognize the rifle for what it is, and this rifle is a great deal for a recreational/fun gun.

Cheers,
Dan

cyphertext
02-10-2012, 20:23
Just a FYI, but most well-known instructors have endorsed rifles. Pat Rogers has the BCM EAG rifle, Jeff Gonzales has the LWRC Tricon, Larry Vickers has done work with Daniel Defense, Mike Pannone has done work with Next Generation Arms, Jason Falla is apparently in the works with Centurion Arms, etc etc.

Also, keep in mind there is a reason that the VTAC rifle bears the company's name, and not the sport model. Now I can't speak for SGM Lamb because I have yet to train with him, but I regularly train/discuss with many people who have been through his courses, and I can't thin of a single guy who would look at the sport as anything more than a recreational rifle. There's nothing wrong with this, most shooters buy this rifle for that purpose.

This isn't a bash on S&W. I'd love to have a VTAC rifle, or a few of their other rifles (I'd still want a 1/7 or 1/8 barrel). All I am saying is that people should recognize the rifle for what it is, and this rifle is a great deal for a recreational/fun gun.

Cheers,
Dan

I recognize the rifle for what it is....my comment was just a poke at Javelin when he states S&W (not just the Sport) is "bottom end". I doubt these high level instructors would lend their name to a rifle manufacturer that they considered junk.

PM inbound shortly...

JaPes
02-11-2012, 02:38
OMG it's the thread that won't die. :LOL:

The OP should be given an award for unintentionally starting an epic derailed thread.

Made Man
02-11-2012, 06:34
Never talk about religion, politics, or the Legendary S&W M&P 15 Sport. It always starts an argument.

Dang sure am glad I got one, pre-ban.

Javelin
02-11-2012, 16:49
I recognize the rifle for what it is....my comment was just a poke at Javelin when he states S&W (not just the Sport) is "bottom end". I doubt these high level instructors would lend their name to a rifle manufacturer that they considered junk.

PM inbound shortly...

It is bottom end. I would imagine that Kyle was approached by Short&Wimpy and they said here is a bag of money to support our product. in this economy what do you think Kyle said?

Javelin
02-11-2012, 17:01
Some great posts here. The simple fact is, MOST of us don't need to run out and buy a $2,500 uber-rifle(including most of the people who have one). And for those of us who do WANT a "nicer" AR than a Sport...


Why don't you think that MOST of u don't need a $2,500 rifle? It is not like $2,500 is that much for a quality rifle. To be honest I think each of my Noveske rifles run around $4K after add-ons, tax stamps, suppressors, and optics. But that's my money so I will spend it the way I want to (because I am a $30k/year "millionaire apparently). And I have been peddling my lesser ARs (DPMS, Armalite, S&W M&P15, .... I would like to sell my RRA but it is SBR'd & I would lose money, and I am in the process of selling my DPMS SASS 308) as I listened to the "As Good As" crowd on here for too long and wasted some cash.

And just for the record my rifles are very pristine as I keep them that way. I don't abuse them and though the BCG show wear the rest of the rifles are in awesome shape. I think my Anschutz 1913 Supermatch (most of you would crap yourself if you knew how much that costs outfitted) I have shot throughout my Olympic Training Center & NCAA shooting career still looks almost the same as when it was purchased new back in 1994. I grew up playing the violin and had a very fine instrument and I learned to care for things of value. Very high quality items that are masterfully crafted.

You guys with these S&W think they are awesome and that is fine. But let's not get too deep in the BS stating that folks have no reason to purchase a finely tuned & accurate rifle. The AR class warfare on this forum wreaks.

Enjoy your Sportsters.

Hour13
02-11-2012, 17:43
Why don't you think that MOST of u don't need a $2,500 rifle? It is not like $2,500 is that much for a quality rifle. To be honest I think each of my Noveske rifles run around $4K after add-ons, tax stamps, suppressors, and optics. But that's my money so I will spend it the way I want to (because I am a $30k/year "millionaire apparently). And I have been peddling my lesser ARs (DPMS, Armalite, S&W M&P15, .... I would like to sell my RRA but it is SBR'd & I would lose money, and I am in the process of selling my DPMS SASS 308) as I listened to the "As Good As" crowd on here for too long and wasted some cash.

And just for the record my rifles are very pristine as I keep them that way. I don't abuse them and though the BCG show wear the rest of the rifles are in awesome shape. I think my Anschutz 1913 Supermatch (most of you would crap yourself if you knew how much that costs outfitted) I have shot throughout my Olympic Training Center & NCAA shooting career still looks almost the same as when it was purchased new back in 1994. I grew up playing the violin and had a very fine instrument and I learned to care for things of value. Very high quality items that are masterfully crafted.

You guys with these S&W think they are awesome and that is fine. But let's not get too deep in the BS stating that folks have no reason to purchase a finely tuned & accurate rifle. The AR class warfare on this forum wreaks.

Enjoy your Sportsters.

I should've been more clear my friend, wasn't trying to make a broad statement towards everybody. By "us" I was referring to those of us buying and enjoying rifles like the Sport. Myself for instance, I'm not out to impress or BS anybody.

I'm not Military.

I'm not LE.

I'm not a competition shooter.

I'm a mechanic, a civilian. For me, an AR is a secondary defense weapon. It's primary purpose in my life... is for fun. My primary defense weapon is my EDC. So as much as I'd love a top tier M4, it's not in my budget. I have rent, bills, child support, etc. All of which come before my "toys". Period.

So if I don't "need" a Noveske, and can't afford one, should I not own a rifle at all? The Sport serves it's purpose in my life perfectly. I have no plans to use it to make a 500yd headshot, I just want it to be fun, reliable & accurate out to 100yds. And it is.

And should the zombies attack, I have no doubt this AR will handle them just fine.

:wavey:

USMCgs3
02-11-2012, 18:07
It's all about the "name drop"


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Javelin
02-11-2012, 18:32
I should've been more clear my friend, wasn't trying to make a broad statement towards everybody. By "us" I was referring to those of us buying and enjoying rifles like the Sport. Myself for instance, I'm not out to impress or BS anybody.

I'm not Military.

I'm not LE.

I'm not a competition shooter.

I'm a mechanic, a civilian. For me, an AR is a secondary defense weapon. It's primary purpose in my life... is for fun. My primary defense weapon is my EDC. So as much as I'd love a top tier M4, it's not in my budget. I have rent, bills, child support, etc. All of which come before my "toys". Period.

So if I don't "need" a Noveske, and can't afford one, should I not own a rifle at all? The Sport serves it's purpose in my life perfectly. I have no plans to use it to make a 500yd headshot, I just want it to be fun, reliable & accurate out to 100yds. And it is.

And should the zombies attack, I have no doubt this AR will handle them just fine.

:wavey:

Well I guess you have a point. Your S&W should be fairly accurate. Probably more so than most other non-AR semi-auto platforms. I don't know much about Zombies but maybe an expert on them will chime in... :tongueout:

Hour13
02-11-2012, 20:47
Well I guess you have a point. Your S&W should be fairly accurate. Probably more so than most other non-AR semi-auto platforms. I don't know much about Zombies but maybe an expert on them will chime in... :tongueout:

Ya, she does pretty good. Haven't put a scope on her yet, but I can put a mag full of crappy PMC .223 in a 3" group at 50-60yds just on the irons(when I take my time). Not setting any records, lol, but I can live with it.

Wasn't trying to rag on anybody buying top-notch ARs, believe me, if I could, I would too! I certainly appreciate quality gear, hence my EDC is an H&K and not a Sigma. I love the Sport for a fun, mag-dump, paper killing bit of gunpowder therapy... but I am slowly building another rifle for more "serious" shooting.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn269/hour13/gun%20stuff/DI4.jpg

Not top-tier, but should be a pretty decent rig when it's done.

...

Still gonna keep the Sport though!
:tongueout:

Detectorist
02-11-2012, 22:35
I should've been more clear my friend, wasn't trying to make a broad statement towards everybody. By "us" I was referring to those of us buying and enjoying rifles like the Sport. Myself for instance, I'm not out to impress or BS anybody.

I'm not Military.

I'm not LE.

I'm not a competition shooter.

I'm a mechanic, a civilian. For me, an AR is a secondary defense weapon. It's primary purpose in my life... is for fun. My primary defense weapon is my EDC. So as much as I'd love a top tier M4, it's not in my budget. I have rent, bills, child support, etc. All of which come before my "toys". Period.

So if I don't "need" a Noveske, and can't afford one, should I not own a rifle at all? The Sport serves it's purpose in my life perfectly. I have no plans to use it to make a 500yd headshot, I just want it to be fun, reliable & accurate out to 100yds. And it is.

And should the zombies attack, I have no doubt this AR will handle them just fine.

:wavey:

You don't owe anyone an explanation. Some folks just can't stand someone else saving some money and getting something that suits them.

When I purchased my DPMS a few years back, I got the same comments, only worse. I challenged the main culprit to go out to the range with me and stand 50 meters from me while I shot at him with my bottom end DPMS. I would change places with him when I got a jam or ran out of ammo. Never had any takers.

The point is your AR works. It shoots and it's reliable. What's not to like?

MD357
02-12-2012, 08:45
It's all about the "name drop"



or how stating how much you spent. Internet status is where it's at. :cool:

MD357
02-12-2012, 09:02
When I purchased my DPMS a few years back, I got the same comments, only worse. I challenged the main culprit to go out to the range with me and stand 50 meters from me while I shot at him with my bottom end DPMS. I would change places with him when I got a jam or ran out of ammo. Never had any takers.


I'd imagine they didn't want to get theirs dirty. Gotta look pristine for the pics ya know. :embarassed:

series1811
02-12-2012, 09:04
Maybe he's doing it for the money?:dunno:

Maybe because Kyle knows that most people would be better off with a $600 rifle and a thousand dollars worth of training than a $1600 rifle and no training.

TangoFoxtrot
02-12-2012, 09:33
Why don't you think that MOST of u don't need a $2,500 rifle? It is not like $2,500 is that much for a quality rifle. To be honest I think each of my Noveske rifles run around $4K after add-ons, tax stamps, suppressors, and optics. But that's my money so I will spend it the way I want to (because I am a $30k/year "millionaire apparently). And I have been peddling my lesser ARs (DPMS, Armalite, S&W M&P15, .... I would like to sell my RRA but it is SBR'd & I would lose money, and I am in the process of selling my DPMS SASS 308) as I listened to the "As Good As" crowd on here for too long and wasted some cash.

And just for the record my rifles are very pristine as I keep them that way. I don't abuse them and though the BCG show wear the rest of the rifles are in awesome shape. I think my Anschutz 1913 Supermatch (most of you would crap yourself if you knew how much that costs outfitted) I have shot throughout my Olympic Training Center & NCAA shooting career still looks almost the same as when it was purchased new back in 1994. I grew up playing the violin and had a very fine instrument and I learned to care for things of value. Very high quality items that are masterfully crafted.

You guys with these S&W think they are awesome and that is fine. But let's not get too deep in the BS stating that folks have no reason to purchase a finely tuned & accurate rifle. The AR class warfare on this forum wreaks.

Enjoy your Sportsters.

Bottom line is I can pick up my Sport, my Colt or your $4K rifle and kill anything that I choose. Some on this site forget that if you are a lousy marksman having a $4k rifle is not going to matter. So the price point is moot. Use and train with what you can afford and thats that.

Ironbar
02-12-2012, 09:50
Why don't you think that MOST of u don't need a $2,500 rifle? It is not like $2,500 is that much for a quality rifle. To be honest I think each of my Noveske rifles run around $4K after add-ons, tax stamps, suppressors, and optics. But that's my money so I will spend it the way I want to (because I am a $30k/year "millionaire apparently). And I have been peddling my lesser ARs (DPMS, Armalite, S&W M&P15, .... I would like to sell my RRA but it is SBR'd & I would lose money, and I am in the process of selling my DPMS SASS 308) as I listened to the "As Good As" crowd on here for too long and wasted some cash.

And just for the record my rifles are very pristine as I keep them that way. I don't abuse them and though the BCG show wear the rest of the rifles are in awesome shape. I think my Anschutz 1913 Supermatch (most of you would crap yourself if you knew how much that costs outfitted) I have shot throughout my Olympic Training Center & NCAA shooting career still looks almost the same as when it was purchased new back in 1994. I grew up playing the violin and had a very fine instrument and I learned to care for things of value. Very high quality items that are masterfully crafted.

You guys with these S&W think they are awesome and that is fine. But let's not get too deep in the BS stating that folks have no reason to purchase a finely tuned & accurate rifle. The AR class warfare on this forum wreaks.

Enjoy your Sportsters.

At first I though Javelin might have anger management issues. Now I'm sure of it.

BTW, it's "reeks", not "wreaks."

MD357
02-12-2012, 10:09
http://memearchive.net/memerial.net/3856/you-mad-bro-he-mad-son.jpg

JaPes
02-12-2012, 10:12
he AR class warfare on this forum wreaks.

"AR class warfare" goes both ways.

At first I though Javelin might have anger management issues. Now I'm sure of it.

He doesn't have anger management issues. He's consistent in all his posts about AR's. The common thread is from his experience from trading up, his advice is to just jump up to the top of the line and save time, money, and frustration.

The intent to save us time & money in the long run (from his viewpoint) is honorable. I can appreciate that.

The issue is that his arguments to the fact are combative & argumentative rather than persuasive.

pleaforwar
02-12-2012, 10:33
Maybe because Kyle knows that most people would be better off with a $600 rifle and a thousand dollars worth of training than a $1600 rifle and no training.

Or, instead of being on either extreme, if you intend on attending training, you can get a rifle that is in the middle of those price points and work from there.

I'm not saying the sport is a crappy rifle, but please, lets not work it up to be a rifle that is intended for high-round-count courses.

If anybody wants to tell me I'm full of it, by all means, post an AAR, complete with photos, that shows a Sport going through a course from a respectable instructor (ala EAG, TRICON, MD, RB1, LMS, etc etc), and how it performed. I'm definitely open to the idea, but given that this rifle is aimed towards budget-minded people, I'd be shocked that someone who purchased a Sport would be cool with ponying up the $800-1200 that most courses will run you (w/course fees, ammo, accommodations, etc).

Bottom line is I can pick up my Sport, my Colt or your $4K rifle and kill anything that I choose. Some on this site forget that if you are a lousy marksman having a $4k rifle is not going to matter. So the price point is moot. Use and train with what you can afford and thats that.

Yes, but if you are an good marksman, or if you are training up to become a better marksman, a different rifle will matter. I don't know where you are getting your $4k figure, but it definitely doesn't cost that much to get a quality rifle w/accessories.

Cheers,
Dan

cyphertext
02-12-2012, 10:35
The issue is that his arguments to the fact are combative & argumentative rather than persuasive.

This is the issue. It isn't necessarily what he is saying, but how he is saying it. Don't just tell me model A is a POS, buy model B for a little bit more. Tell me what model B offers and how that will benefit me directly for my use and prove to be the better value.

Support the claim with facts and examples, that is all I ask.

bmoore
02-12-2012, 10:42
Or, instead of being on either extreme, if you intend on attending training, you can get a rifle that is in the middle of those price points and work from there.

I'm not saying the sport is a crappy rifle, but please, lets not work it up to be a rifle that is intended for high-round-count courses.

If anybody wants to tell me I'm full of it, by all means, post an AAR, complete with photos, that shows a Sport going through a course from a respectable instructor (ala EAG, TRICON, MD, RB1, LMS, etc etc), and how it performed. I'm definitely open to the idea, but given that this rifle is aimed towards budget-minded people, I'd be shocked that someone who purchased a Sport would be cool with ponying up the $800-1200 that most courses will run you (w/course fees, ammo, accommodations, etc).



Yes, but if you are an good marksman, or if you are training up to become a better marksman, a different rifle will matter. I don't know where you are getting your $4k figure, but it definitely doesn't cost that much to get a quality rifle w/accessories.

Cheers,
Dan

Sorry I dont know how to post links but check out thetruthaboutguns.com. They have a pretty well written review on a Smith Sport by a gentlemen who ran it for a week at the Gunsite Academy in AZ. Im not the biggest player in the carbine course community so Im not sure if that place meets your expectations but that aside it was a pretty nice review of the guns basic bullet points. They ran an EOTech XPS2 on it from what I remember. If you google Smith M&P Sport gunsite review I am sure it will pop up. Not trying to argure, I can go either way on the sport but this is an actual review I found informative.

cyphertext
02-12-2012, 10:51
I'm not saying the sport is a crappy rifle, but please, lets not work it up to be a rifle that is intended for high-round-count courses.

If anybody wants to tell me I'm full of it, by all means, post an AAR, complete with photos, that shows a Sport going through a course from a respectable instructor (ala EAG, TRICON, MD, RB1, LMS, etc etc), and how it performed. I'm definitely open to the idea, but given that this rifle is aimed towards budget-minded people, I'd be shocked that someone who purchased a Sport would be cool with ponying up the $800-1200 that most courses will run you (w/course fees, ammo, accommodations, etc).


I can agree with this, even as a Sport owner! I would love to see a Sport run through some of these courses as well, but I doubt that the Sport purchaser would attend those either. The Sport owner is more likely to end up at Appleseed for the weekend for his "training". (not intended as a slam on Appleseed...just don't see Sport owners going to much other than basic marksmanship)

Now, if there is one of these classes available in the Dallas area that would be willing to let me run it with my Sport for cost of ammo only, just to get a real world example....I'm all in! :supergrin:

JaPes
02-12-2012, 10:52
This is the issue. It isn't necessarily what he is saying, but how he is saying it. Don't just tell me model A is a POS, buy model B for a little bit more. Tell me what model B offers and how that will benefit me directly for my use and prove to be the better value.

Support the claim with facts and examples, that is all I ask.

As new to the AR owners asking questions, we have to also try to take the perspective of an experienced AR owner. They probably have had a similar line of question asked over and over. Over time, they get frustrated by individuals asking for their opinion then taking a different course of action.

From my perspective, I'm asking a novel question for the first time. "What's an H buffer?"..."Why should I run a full auto BCG?"... "What's the 'F' mark on my A2 front sight post mean?"

From their perspective, it's the same questions over and over again.

:dunno:

I think there are some things you can learn from facts, and some that you can only learn from experience.

Why is that Carbine buffer different from the H buffer? The book tells me that the H buffer is about 0.8oz. I can conceptualize what it will do, and have a good idea.

I won't really know until I try it out myself & feel the differences with a variety of ammo.

cyphertext
02-12-2012, 11:08
Sorry I dont know how to post links but check out thetruthaboutguns.com. They have a pretty well written review on a Smith Sport by a gentlemen who ran it for a week at the Gunsite Academy in AZ. Im not the biggest player in the carbine course community so Im not sure if that place meets your expectations but that aside it was a pretty nice review of the guns basic bullet points. They ran an EOTech XPS2 on it from what I remember. If you google Smith M&P Sport gunsite review I am sure it will pop up. Not trying to argure, I can go either way on the sport but this is an actual review I found informative.

I'm sure Pleaforwar has seen it, but just in case...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

bmoore
02-12-2012, 11:47
I'm sure Pleaforwar has seen it, but just in case...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

Thank you for posting that.

pleaforwar
02-12-2012, 11:59
I'm sure Pleaforwar has seen it, but just in case...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

Actually, I haven't, but it was a good read.

FWIW, these are my thoughts on the article (and others like it)

1) I have a hard time trusting a testing session where the company who produced the rifle is on site with the reviewer. I have yet to see a negative review when this is the case. It gives the perception of a "sponsored" review, which takes away from the neutrality of the review. For example, I pay for most of the gear I review. Any gear that I did not pay for was provided by Addax Tactical, and they were never on site with the courses in which I used their rifles. The products I used for them was more on a testing basis than public review anyhow.
2) "Well over 1000 rounds" in a week is ~200 rounds a day. An unknown portion of this was in the confines of a shoothouse. Compare that to 1k in 3 days with EAG or 2k in 3 days with TRICON.

Now, I have not trained at the Gunsite Academy, so I cannot relay any personal experience about their facilities, quality of instruction, etc. I have heard repeated comments (from qualified sources) about their facilities being great but their instruction being outdated, but I cannot verify personally. I have no other comments on the legitimacy of their instruction.

series1811
02-12-2012, 12:06
I'm sure Pleaforwar has seen it, but just in case...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

"The Smith & Wesson M&P15 Sport rifle is not your mall-ninja AR dripping with rails and oozing tacti-cool."

:supergrin:

bmoore
02-12-2012, 12:17
Actually, I haven't, but it was a good read.

FWIW, these are my thoughts on the article (and others like it)

1) I have a hard time trusting a testing session where the company who produced the rifle is on site with the reviewer. I have yet to see a negative review when this is the case. It gives the perception of a "sponsored" review, which takes away from the neutrality of the review. For example, I pay for most of the gear I review. Any gear that I did not pay for was provided by Addax Tactical, and they were never on site with the courses in which I used their rifles. The products I used for them was more on a testing basis than public review anyhow.
2) "Well over 1000 rounds" in a week is ~200 rounds a day. An unknown portion of this was in the confines of a shoothouse. Compare that to 1k in 3 days with EAG or 2k in 3 days with TRICON.

Now, I have not trained at the Gunsite Academy, so I cannot relay any personal experience about their facilities, quality of instruction, etc. I have heard repeated comments (from qualified sources) about their facilities being great but their instruction being outdated, but I cannot verify personally. I have no other comments on the legitimacy of their instruction.

I agree with you on having the company be on site.

Javelin
02-12-2012, 12:18
"The Smith & Wesson M&P15 Sport rifle is not your mall-ninja AR dripping with rails and oozing tacti-cool."

:supergrin:

Yeah. Funny how they have to throw some labels out there to promote there product. They should have shown how they use the S&W Sporter in "harsh environments".

Oh never mind ... they threw some dirt on it and took a picture. :upeyes:

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Shot-1.jpg

series1811
02-12-2012, 12:38
Yeah. Funny how they have to throw some labels out there to promote there product. They should have shown how they use the S&W Sporter in "harsh environments".

Oh never mind ... they threw some dirt on it and took a picture. :upeyes:

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Shot-1.jpg

You do have some anger management issues. :supergrin:

cyphertext
02-12-2012, 12:39
Here is a video I found on youtube. The guy kicks a bunch of dirt and gravel into his Sport and continues with his carbine course. Unfortunately, he doesn't have video of him shooting after that, but he does describe the failure.

Smith & Wesson M&P15: Gravel, Dust and Abuse - YouTube

MD357
02-12-2012, 12:58
Oh never mind ... they threw some dirt on it and took a picture. :upeyes:

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Shot-1.jpg


I know right!!! Look at these Noveskes braving the cream carpet!!

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4362/edited3novesketwins.jpg

series1811
02-12-2012, 13:01
I know right!!! Look at these Noveskes braving the cream carpet!!

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4362/edited3novesketwins.jpg

And, yet you can pick them up, shake them once to get the fibers off, and then fire away with no problem. :supergrin:

pleaforwar
02-12-2012, 13:28
Here is a video I found on youtube. The guy kicks a bunch of dirt and gravel into his Sport and continues with his carbine course. Unfortunately, he doesn't have video of him shooting after that, but he does describe the failure.

Smith & Wesson M&P15: Gravel, Dust and Abuse - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwXhm45x3WM)

Cypher:
Tone is very difficult to convey over the internet. This comment is an honest reflection to the video you shared with us.

First, coming from a background where AR's are more than recreation, it's very hard to take someone from "Zombie Tactics" seriously.
I get it. People love to pretend that zombies will be walking the streets one day. That doesn't mean mixing fantasy with professionalism is a good way to convey a message.

The review is a great video for a recreational shooter, complete with terms like "lubrication holes" (gas vent holes) etc.

If you want to approach training as "fun", imagine you are preparing for zombies, etc, then roll with it brother. I prefer to go to a course were my instructor doesn't afford me the time to experiment on my rifle (you know, because we are supposed to be training).

I can't really comment much more on the video because I'm really
trying to abide to the golden rule.

Cheers,
Dan

Javelin
02-12-2012, 13:30
You do have some anger management issues. :supergrin:

Yes. Throwing some dirt and rocks on the gun and taking a picture to talk about durability is the most ridiculous thing I can think of.

Javelin
02-12-2012, 13:31
I know right!!! Look at these Noveskes braving the cream carpet!!

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4362/edited3novesketwins.jpg

I guess I need to go and kick some dirt on them for you? :rofl:

Hour13
02-12-2012, 13:35
I think I'm approaching this rifle from a slightly different perspective than most, as I didn't "purchase" my Sport. I had a double-stack converted Yugo AK47 up on my local trading site. Great gun functionally, but after 3 AKs... I've come to the conclusion that, as much as I admire the rifle, I'm just not an AK guy.

Anyhow, a guy gave me this Sport NIB+a few hundred rds of V-max of ammo+a bit of cash, for the AK. Didn't really think much of it, figured I'd see what I could trade it for. "What the hell do I need a cheapie AR for?"

And then I took it to the range...

Now, I'm not gonna BS and say "I've shot a Noveske, this Sport is just as good!" I've never had my hands on that level of rifle. What I can say, is I've shot a few Bushys, Colts, the regular M&P15, Spike's, and had the privilege of putting 200rds through a YHM rifle. Those were nice, and had some cool goodies.

But I wouldn't hesitate to put the Sport up against any of them. It has never had a FTF or jam, is dead on at the distances I'd need a carbine for, and I can modify it just like any other AR. I do prefer to have a dust cover & forward assist, so I have a stripped upper receiver & parts on the way to my house now.

If I need to put a hole in something 500+ yards away, I won't be reaching for a 16" AR. I'm not that good a shot, lol. I'll reach for a gun designed for that.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn269/hour13/gun%20stuff/100_3969.jpg

:supergrin:

Javelin
02-12-2012, 13:40
I think I'm approaching this rifle from a slightly different perspective than most, as I didn't "purchase" my Sport. I had a double-stack converted Yugo AK47 up on my local trading site. Great gun functionally, but after 3 AKs... I've come to the conclusion that, as much as I admire the rifle, I'm just not an AK guy.

Anyhow, a guy gave me this Sport NIB+a few hundred rds of V-max of ammo+a bit of cash, for the AK. Didn't really think much of it, figured I'd see what I could trade it for. "What the hell do I need a cheapie AR for?"

And then I took it to the range...

Now, I'm not gonna BS and say "I've shot a Noveske, this Sport is just as good!" I've never had my hands on that level of rifle. What I can say, is I've shot a few Bushys, Colts, the regular M&P15, Spike's, and had the privilege of putting 200rds through a YHM rifle. Those were nice, and had some cool goodies.

But I wouldn't hesitate to put the Sport up against any of them. It has never had a FTF or jam, is dead on at the distances I'd need a carbine for, and I can modify it just like any other AR. I do prefer to have a dust cover & forward assist, so I have a stripped upper receiver & parts on the way to my house now.

If I need to put a hole in something 500+ yards away, I won't be reaching for a 16" AR. I'm not that good a shot, lol. I'll reach for a gun designed for that.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn269/hour13/gun%20stuff/100_3969.jpg

:supergrin:

That is a nice looking illuminated reticle scope w/ sunshade. What is it?

MD357
02-12-2012, 13:47
I guess I need to go and kick some dirt on them for you? :rofl:

Nope. Don't want them to look like they've been shot or anything. :supergrin:

cyphertext
02-12-2012, 13:49
Cypher:
Tone is very difficult to convey over the internet. This comment is an honest reflection to the video you shared with us.

First, coming from a background where AR's are more than recreation, it's very hard to take someone from "Zombie Tactics" seriously.
I get it. People love to pretend that zombies will be walking the streets one day. That doesn't mean mixing fantasy with professionalism is a good way to convey a message.

The review is a great video for a recreational shooter, complete with terms like "lubrication holes" (gas vent holes) etc.

If you want to approach training as "fun", imagine you are preparing for zombies, etc, then roll with it brother. I prefer to go to a course were my instructor doesn't afford me the time to experiment on my rifle (you know, because we are supposed to be training).

I can't really comment much more on the video because I'm really
trying to abide to the golden rule.

Cheers,
Dan

Sorry...no offense taken either. I just found it interesting that he kicked a bunch of crud into his rifle, and that he reported that it did fail. I thought for sure he was going to say it didn't. Didn't mean for anyone to think that the zombie guy is an expert who we should follow. It just seemed to buck against what the truthaboutguns.com review said, as far as throwing dirt into the action.

Hour13
02-12-2012, 13:54
But then again, I've never intentionally poured sand into the chamber of any of my guns. Maybe this is a tactical training method I should adopt...?
:whistling:

@ Javalin ~ Serious question, no sarcasm. I'm no expert on ARs, asking for your input here bud.

The AR is not a "loose tolerance" weapon, like an AK. Lol, dirt and such doesn't just fall through, and out the bottom. In a firefight, the dust cover is a moot point, as it'll be open anyway. So the same amount of crap that'll get into one AR, will get into another.

My question is, what do the higher end rifles have that basic or "starter" ARs do not, in regards to expunging debris from the chamber once it gets in? Are there channels, or "gutters" machined into the receiver? Not for gasses, but dirt and such.

Again, not being sarcastic, genuinely curious.

Thanks man.

Javelin
02-12-2012, 14:36
But then again, I've never intentionally poured sand into the chamber of any of my guns. Maybe this is a tactical training method I should adopt...?
:whistling:

@ Javalin ~ Serious question, no sarcasm. I'm no expert on ARs, asking for your input here bud.

The AR is not a "loose tolerance" weapon, like an AK. Lol, dirt and such doesn't just fall through, and out the bottom. In a firefight, the dust cover is a moot point, as it'll be open anyway. So the same amount of crap that'll get into one AR, will get into another.

My question is, what do the higher end rifles have that basic or "starter" ARs do not, in regards to expunging debris from the chamber once it gets in? Are there channels, or "gutters" machined into the receiver? Not for gasses, but dirt and such.

Again, not being sarcastic, genuinely curious.

Thanks man.

I am not the best most knowledgeable subject matter expert but I will try and answer. From what I have found it all boils down to maintenance. I am a former Infantryman with only 2 tours in Iraq (2003-2004 / 2005-2006). I say only because I know many folks have 4-5 tours under their belts now. Some folks will have a lot more background and knowledge of firing dirty weapons for sustained periods. In all honesty my missions consisted mainly of cordon and search Raids conducted North of Baghdad taking bad guys out of their beds at night while patrolling the Samarra, Baqu'bah districts/gun running supplies up and down HWY 1, etc. I always tried my best and kept my firearm clean as it was an essential tool. All mission essential equipment was cleaned and maintained before I myself did any personal hygiene as I demanded my Soldiers do the same. When I was a young 2LT I had an AWESOME Platoon SGT that I tried to emulate and he showed me the routine of weapons maintenance and the firearms never failed. His weapon was always immaculate and to this day I still follow that example.

The only reason I have ever seen a quality AR fail is due to complete lack of maintenance from their operators (who were themselves usually slobs in many other areas) and that was usually due to carbon build up and crud from the firearm being neglected. I did (and still do) always ensured my dust cover up as it does help to keep debris out of the BCG which should be run wet and thus does attract dirt.. But no self respecting Infantryman (or really anyone worth a damn) would throw dirt in or on their weapon or purposely get their firearm filthy and expect it to work. Like a 12th Century Samurai would never use their sword to hack branches or put their sword away dirty into their scabbard. Treat your firearm right and it will do the same for you.

:wavey:

Edit: The part on the bolt that I see being a problem area and you should tend to scraping the carbon off is here
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnc7zrb28KG3vlbjY_xNsi_qRCbdYByqp1cYkpiR7TFmE3j42wdmD87fumLQ
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/545carbonbolt.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL801/8868635/22656656/395076230.jpg

Make sure you are getting all that off.

Javelin
02-12-2012, 14:46
Nope. Don't want them to look like they've been shot or anything. :supergrin:

Your badgering and cute little remarks are getting old. I know for some on here it is a tough concept but many of us keep their firearms clean and immaculate. Some people keep their vehicles and other possessions immaculate too. Lots unfortunately don't but that is not my problem.

I am not saying I am perfect. Mistakes happen sometimes and a scratch here or there - honest stuff happens sometimes. I am not perfect either. I will admit I have a nice little dent on the side of my 762SD suppressor because I was in a hurry going through CQB/CQM lane and whacked it against one of the barriers. Yeah I was kind of pissed @ myself because of it as it was totally preventable and I should have had more muzzle awareness while transitioning to my next target. But when my guns are not being used they get cleaned and go back in the case then in the gun safe. They are precision tools.

But I have seen how some people poorly treat their firearms and yeah good for them.

pleaforwar
02-12-2012, 14:58
The only reason I have ever seen a quality AR fail is due to complete lack of maintenance from their operators (who were themselves usually slobs in many other areas) and that was usually due to carbon build up and crud from the firearm being neglected.

:wavey:

Sir,
I recommend a reading of the following article by Mike Pannone (former USMC Force Recon/ Army SF):
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

The message in his article reflects my personal observations when running my AR's. Carbon buildup has never been an issue with my rifles, rather improper lubrication has been a culprit of the few malfunctions I have had that I couldn't trace to magazine, ammo, etc. For example, I had a VERY clean rifle that failed withing a couple of magazines when using Remoil CLP. A healthy addition of Slip 2000 changed that.

The maintenance schedule that I use is:
Never clean between training days of a carbine course, only add lubrication. Clean after carbine course. Quick wipe down of bcg, bolt, run boresnake through barrel a couple of times. Add Slip2000/MPRO7 LPX. Call it a day.

Works for me, YMMV.

Javelin
02-12-2012, 15:03
Sir,
I recommend a reading of the following article by Mike Pannone (former USMC Force Recon/ Army SF):
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

The message in his article reflects my personal observations when running my AR's. Carbon buildup has never been an issue with my rifles, rather improper lubrication has been a culprit of the few malfunctions I have had that I couldn't trace to magazine, ammo, etc. For example, I had a VERY clean rifle that failed withing a couple of magazines when using Remoil CLP. A healthy addition of Slip 2000 changed that.

The maintenance schedule that I use is:
Never clean between training days of a carbine course, only add lubrication. Clean after carbine course. Quick wipe down of bcg, bolt, run boresnake through barrel a couple of times. Add Slip2000/MPRO7 LPX. Call it a day.

Works for me, YMMV.

Good info!

Ok I have a really funny story. When I was in Iraq my first tour I was first with HHC before getting my platoon. I was issued my *new* weapon in country and I went to pull the charging handle back and I couldn't... When I finally got the bolt open and let go the damn thing didn't return at all! It was locked up with black crud and sand. I couldn't believe it. I spent the next 5 evenings cleaning that Colt with CLP and no one had carb cleaner or I would have used it. Anyway when I finally got it all clean and perfect again I was sent down to Company level and had to turn it in and draw another one. That's how it goes sometimes. Whoever had that weapon @ HHC really didn't do anything. Hell it was probably Jessica Lynch's weapon for all I know.

:rofl:

joecoastie
02-12-2012, 15:21
I am not the best most knowledgeable subject matter expert but I will try and answer. From what I have found it all boils down to maintenance. I am a former Infantryman with only 2 tours in Iraq (2003-2004 / 2005-2006). I say only because I know many folks have 4-5 tours under their belts now. Some folks will have a lot more background and knowledge of firing dirty weapons for sustained periods. In all honesty my missions consisted mainly of cordon and search Raids conducted North of Baghdad taking bad guys out of their beds at night while patrolling the Samarra, Baqu'bah districts/gun running supplies up and down HWY 1, etc. I always tried my best and kept my firearm clean as it was an essential tool. All mission essential equipment was cleaned and maintained before I myself did any personal hygiene as I demanded my Soldiers do the same. When I was a young 2LT I had an AWESOME Platoon SGT that I tried to emulate and he showed me the routine of weapons maintenance and the firearms never failed. His weapon was always immaculate and to this day I still follow that example.

The only reason I have ever seen a quality AR fail is due to complete lack of maintenance from their operators (who were themselves usually slobs in many other areas) and that was usually due to carbon build up and crud from the firearm being neglected. I did (and still do) always ensured my dust cover up as it does help to keep debris out of the BCG which should be run wet and thus does attract dirt.. But no self respecting Infantryman (or really anyone worth a damn) would throw dirt in or on their weapon or purposely get their firearm filthy and expect it to work. Like a 12th Century Samurai would never use their sword to hack branches or put their sword away dirty into their scabbard. Treat your firearm right and it will do the same for you.

:wavey:

Edit: The part on the bolt that I see being a problem area and you should tend to scraping the carbon off is here
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnc7zrb28KG3vlbjY_xNsi_qRCbdYByqp1cYkpiR7TFmE3j42wdmD87fumLQ
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/545carbonbolt.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL801/8868635/22656656/395076230.jpg

Make sure you are getting all that off.

Wow, that's a cruddy bolt, thanks for sharing from your experience. Even though you say there may be people with more experience firing dirty weapons, for those of us without any kind of combat experience it is nice to be able to learn from the experiences of those that have actually carried an AR pattern rifle in combat. I know you caught a lot a flak in this thread for not sharing your background, but considering all of the armchair commandos on the internet its nice to know that the person telling you what rifle they think you should buy has some kind of hands on experience to base it on.

Hour13
02-12-2012, 15:27
I spent the next 5 evenings cleaning that Colt with CLP and no one had carb cleaner or I would have used it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ok, glad I'm not the only one. Thought it was just the mechanic in me, everything crosses over between the cars and guns.

All the guns get a light film of hi-temp bearing grease. Carb clean is amazing on hard-parts, and as I found... It will remove a prior owner's half-assed "paintjob" very effectively, without damaging the factory black finish.

And Hoppe's oil works wonders on the creaky door hinges of a vintage Mustang!

Thanks for the info BTW.

:wavey:

pleaforwar
02-12-2012, 15:30
Good info!

Ok I have a really funny story. When I was in Iraq my first tour I was first with HHC before getting my platoon. I was issued my *new* weapon in country and I went to pull the charging handle back and I couldn't... When I finally got the bolt open and let go the damn thing didn't return at all! It was locked up with black crud and sand. I couldn't believe it. I spent the next 5 evenings cleaning that Colt with CLP and no one had carb cleaner or I would have used it. Anyway when I finally got it all clean and perfect again I was sent down to Company level and had to turn it in and draw another one. That's how it goes sometimes. Whoever had that weapon @ HHC really didn't do anything. Hell it was probably Jessica Lynch's weapon for all I know.

:rofl:

Yea, Mike mentioned that there is a crossover point. His test came out to ~2400 rounds on a bone dry rifle where carbon became a real problem. I'm not saying that one should never clean their AR's, just that the level of maintenance certain organizations perform is overboard.

Sadly I am out of town, otherwise I would be able to take some pics of my bolts. I think you would be offended by their level of cleanliness. :rofl:

bmoore
02-12-2012, 15:32
That was a good article.

JaPes
02-12-2012, 15:54
Edit: The part on the bolt that I see being a problem area and you should tend to scraping the carbon off is here
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnc7zrb28KG3vlbjY_xNsi_qRCbdYByqp1cYkpiR7TFmE3j42wdmD87fumLQ



Make sure you are getting all that off.


Jav,

I got myself this tool to help clean that area:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f275/suba-saab/catm4-1.jpg

Opinions?

Javelin
02-12-2012, 15:59
Jav,

I got myself this tool to help clean that area:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f275/suba-saab/catm4-1.jpg

Opinions?

Oooh I need one of those! I've just been using the free Otis cleaning kits that I received while on active duty (I still have like 3 left I think).

How has it worked out for you?

fowler
02-12-2012, 16:07
I have shot 3-4 dozen Ar,s in 4.5 decades thousands of rds and theSW MP15 sport is as good as any for being reliable and accurate. The heart of the SW Sport is very strong. The Ginger bread don,t make a better AR. Some call Ar,s the Barbie for men ,because they change there outfits so much. Eugene Stoner is Eugene Stoner no matter what you dress him in.

JaPes
02-12-2012, 16:17
Oooh I need one of those! I've just been using the free Otis cleaning kits that I received while on active duty (I still have like 3 left I think).

How has it worked out for you?

I have no previous experience to draw on, but it seems to work just fine.

It's a heck of a lot more convenient than breaking out a dental pick and setting off my cleaning OCD. :)

bmoore
02-12-2012, 16:17
This KZ tool works incredibly good for scraping the bolt tail. I dont see tons of high round count carbon build up but it does an exceptional job. It slips on the tail, you turn it and it kind of cork screws and leaves the bolt well cleaned.

bmoore
02-12-2012, 16:20
bigger pics hopefully. Ive actually only used it a few times because usually Mpro7 cleaner and micro fiber can typically handle whatever is on there. But for people who have high round counts and maybe some delayed cleaning it seems like it would shine.

carloglock19
02-12-2012, 16:27
Good info!

Ok I have a really funny story. When I was in Iraq my first tour I was first with HHC before getting my platoon. I was issued my *new* weapon in country and I went to pull the charging handle back and I couldn't... When I finally got the bolt open and let go the damn thing didn't return at all! It was locked up with black crud and sand. I couldn't believe it. I spent the next 5 evenings cleaning that Colt with CLP and no one had carb cleaner or I would have used it. Anyway when I finally got it all clean and perfect again I was sent down to Company level and had to turn it in and draw another one. That's how it goes sometimes. Whoever had that weapon @ HHC really didn't do anything. Hell it was probably Jessica Lynch's weapon for all I know.

:rofl:

You might get a kick out of this; on my last 2 boots on ground IA tours('03 and '06) I was issued brand new in the box weapons and the drill SGTs during our training at the time kept saying the Navy must have money to burn. I doubt its that way now with all the money shortages. I plan on doing one more IA/GSA tour prior to retirement I will report if I get issued another NIB weapon then.

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series1811
02-12-2012, 16:28
Yes. Throwing some dirt and rocks on the gun and taking a picture to talk about durability is the most ridiculous thing I can think of.

Get a little older and you will be surprised how many more ridiculous things there are than that. :supergrin:

Javelin
02-12-2012, 16:36
Wow, that's a cruddy bolt, thanks for sharing from your experience. Even though you say there may be people with more experience firing dirty weapons, for those of us without any kind of combat experience it is nice to be able to learn from the experiences of those that have actually carried an AR pattern rifle in combat. I know you caught a lot a flak in this thread for not sharing your background, but considering all of the armchair commandos on the internet its nice to know that the person telling you what rifle they think you should buy has some kind of hands on experience to base it on.

Thanks. It gets thick in here fast and heated sometimes. I personally don't like the "I went to war & I know more than you" mentality so I try not to use it as I would hate that my experience in the service would rest on the laurels of a gun internet board. Talk about depressing and being that "once was" and "has been"... it would be depressing to me anyway. In all honesty there are so many folks who know almost everything about the AR that have never been in harms way with them.

I would be willing to bet that most that use their M4s in the service don't know a thing about BCM, DD, LMT, etc but do know how to enter & clear a room, can instruct on how to brilliantly clear the fatal funnel while breaching in a 4-man stack, etc. Those are all techniques and training that I believe are paramount. Then there is the hardware and that is a completely different animal. I know I didn't honestly know much of anything about civilian ARs when I was in the service until I got out & I took up the black rifle hobby and starting buying them/putting them together. Then I grew to have a real appreciation for the platform. I am still grasping the concept of the bargain ARs and I may never as they didn't work out too well for me when I started out in this hobby.

It is a good hobby albeit a really expensive hobby ---> beats a gambling addiction I guess. :tongueout:

MD357
02-12-2012, 16:46
Your badgering and cute little remarks are getting old. I know for some on here it is a tough concept but many of us keep their firearms clean and immaculate. Some people keep their vehicles and other possessions immaculate too. Lots unfortunately don't but that is not my problem.

I am not saying I am perfect. Mistakes happen sometimes and a scratch here or there - honest stuff happens sometimes. I am not perfect either. I will admit I have a nice little dent on the side of my 762SD suppressor because I was in a hurry going through CQB/CQM lane and whacked it against one of the barriers. Yeah I was kind of pissed @ myself because of it as it was totally preventable and I should have had more muzzle awareness while transitioning to my next target. But when my guns are not being used they get cleaned and go back in the case then in the gun safe. They are precision tools.

But I have seen how some people poorly treat their firearms and yeah good for them.

Fascinating story aside, I find it interesting that you can't take some of your own medicine. :supergrin:

All I'm doing is pointing out the irony. What you're not understanding is that with all your comments, it seems that a S&W IS actually equal to your Noveske in what you ask of it given what you've provided. Cause there sure isn't a ton of wear on those guns, and all I see is pics of them on a carpet.

I have some questions to all those that have significant AR experience, and even Javelin.

What have you seen fail on S&W guns? Not talking about just one anecdote but a known pattern where someone can reference multiple instances. (everyone puts out a lemon here or there)

Is there some design flaw that you can point out that leads to failures? How about a cost cutting measure that leads to the same? Again with examples? Not interested in coulda, shoulda, woulda. Looking for facts.

Just looking for some intelligent criticisms so that I may keep an eye out for my purchase. Luckily I have others to fall back on. :embarassed:

series1811
02-12-2012, 16:48
Thanks. It gets thick in here fast and heated sometimes. I personally don't like the "I went to war & I know more than you" mentality so I try not to use it as I would hate that my experience in the service would rest on the laurels of a gun internet board. Talk about depressing and being that "once was" and "has been"... it would be depressing to me anyway. In all honesty there are so many folks who know almost everything about the AR that have never been in harms way with them.

I would be willing to bet that most that use their M4s in the service don't know a thing about BCM, DD, LMT, etc but do know how to enter & clear a room, can instruct on how to brilliantly clear the fatal funnel while breaching in a 4-man stack, etc. Those are all techniques and training that I believe are paramount. Then there is the hardware and that is a completely different animal. I know I didn't honestly know much of anything about civilian ARs when I was in the service until I got out & I took up the black rifle hobby and starting buying them/putting them together. Then I grew to have a real appreciation for the platform. I am still grasping the concept of the bargain ARs and I may never as they didn't work out too well for me when I started out in this hobby.

It is a good hobby albeit a really expensive hobby ---> beats a gambling addiction I guess. :tongueout:

Great point. It really doesn't matter what you are carrying if you don't know how to employ it correctly. An expensive set of tools doesn't make someone a mechanic.

I carried an AR for 25 years for my job, and I had no idea what the twist rate was on it until I started going on to forums like this one. :supergrin: (but, I did know what an immediate action drill was).

But, it is a fun platform to play with, too.

Ruggles
02-12-2012, 17:13
"It is a good hobby albeit a really expensive hobby ---> beats a gambling addiction I guess"

Not so sure, at least with gambling their are support groups and hopes for an intervention for it to all end....not so much with firearms.....

cyphertext
02-12-2012, 17:24
"It is a good hobby albeit a really expensive hobby ---> beats a gambling addiction I guess"

Not so sure, at least with gambling their are support groups and hopes for an intervention for it to all end....not so much with firearms.....

There's an intervention alright...it happens when Momma figures out there are more black guns in the house than she knew about.

joecoastie
02-12-2012, 17:28
.... I personally don't like the "I went to war & I know more than you" mentality so I try not to use it as I would hate that my experience in the service would rest on the laurels of a gun internet board. Talk about depressing and being that "once was" and "has been"... it would be depressing to me anyway.

I could see how that would be the case. :wavey:

pleaforwar
02-12-2012, 19:59
What have you seen fail on S&W guns?

Two problems I have seen first hand from work.

1) A VTAC that went kaboom on the range. I'm out of state right now and don't have access to the pics. The culprit was most likely the cheap gun show ammo that was being used, but I don't know the final word.

2) Improperly staked castle nut. I had a new M&P15T come through that, even though it was staked, the castle nut would unscrew by hand.

That's all I have personally observed.

Ruggles
02-12-2012, 20:27
There's an intervention alright...it happens when Momma figures out there are more black guns in the house than she knew about.

Yeah I was referring to a more loving type of family intervention :rofl: