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Sam Spade
02-04-2012, 11:40
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/preattack.html

Another superb piece from Marc. Read everything, including the footnotes.

Bill Lumberg
02-04-2012, 11:48
I always sort of took it for granted that guttural screaming was the number one pre attack indicator. It's what I do right before.

geoemery
02-04-2012, 12:15
This guy subscribes to the it takes two to fight. My grade school teachers use to say that. So if you don't fight back, you got punched out. If you fight back, you are the problem. And people wonder why bulling happens.

fastbolt
02-04-2012, 12:53
For you folks carrying a badge (active LE only training), you might find it an interesting way to spend 8 hours to take the 1-day class from Dr Steve Rhoads Ph.D (former police chief) on Detecting Danger.

Interesting discussion involving subconscious, verbal & nonverbal communications, phenomenological thought process, and proxemics & danger.

The verbal communications discussion highlights verbal indicators of deception and how word tense and usage can be used for evaluation of individuals' intentions, and the nonverbal discussion highlights how to interpret specific non-verbal gestures that suggest emotional responses of anger or violence.

PAGunner
02-04-2012, 13:31
This guy is an idiot, who sees the world through a sheltered prism. The 'violence' he's used to seeing sounds like drunk morons acting stupid in bars. If he lived in the real world he'd be aware of many victims and would be victimes who've successfully defended themselves. It's really that simple and not worth the effort to even go into further detail refuting this brainless article.

Lowjiber
02-04-2012, 13:51
This guy is an idiot, who sees the world through a sheltered prism. The 'violence' he's used to seeing sounds like drunk morons acting stupid in bars. If he lived in the real world he'd be aware of many victims and would be victimes who've successfully defended themselves. It's really that simple and not worth the effort to even go into further detail refuting this brainless article.

I agree.

steveksux
02-04-2012, 14:32
I've also had success in the past by squaring up and standing my ground, giving it right back to them. Bullies count on people backing down, fighters don't back down. You throw the bullies off, they think maybe you're a fighter and they maybe bit off more than they can chew, as they know they're just bullies.

Provided that initial display is followed by a way to let them back down without losing face, and they back down every time. They may fight to avoid losing face, or they may back down if they're sufficiently scared of you. The fight is more likely.

Having said that, that was before I got my CPL and started carrying a gun. If that approach backfires now and I end up fighting, and end up having to shoot, its going to look more like mutual combat, and I'm likely in for a lot more trouble. If I'm lucky it'll just amount to a lot of extra scrutiny and I'll still end up with no charges. If not.... it'll look like I engaged in mutual combat confident if things went south I had a gun on me to cash the checks my mouth made that I couldn't cash myself.

So at this point, someone acts like an *******, I'm resisting the temptation to "teach him a lesson" and walking away. You engage if you want. The pistol is for defending your life, not your ego. You have to learn to be the adult, often the only adult, in the situation.

I think its a good article and good food for thought, especially for anyone carrying a weapon. Then every confrontation has the possibility of escalating to deadly force. Be aware of that when you decide whether to start a confrontation, or engage in a confrontation someone else started with you over say, a parking space.

Randy

Foxtrotx1
02-04-2012, 15:10
"Hey, got a cigarette?" is a pretty typical way to start a hold up.

Sgt. Rambo
02-04-2012, 15:16
"Hey, got a cigarette?" is a pretty typical way to start a hold up.


+1 Seen it dozens of times over the years.

steveksux
02-04-2012, 15:26
This guy is an idiot, who sees the world through a sheltered prism. The 'violence' he's used to seeing sounds like drunk morons acting stupid in bars. If he lived in the real world he'd be aware of many victims and would be victimes who've successfully defended themselves. It's really that simple and not worth the effort to even go into further detail refuting this brainless article.

I think you miss the point of the article. The most likely violence you will experience may well be from an obnoxious jerk, not a robber. That's been my experience. Only been in 1 robbery, and had lots of confrontations with idiots.

He specifically mentions that is not the only source of violence, does not suggest you not defend yourself if attacked. He's merely pointing out the most common way people talk themselves into violence when they could be avoiding it easily. Seems to me the best strategy is to avoid a fight if you're not in one, and to win if you are in one. But even if you win, you're likely to be injured to some degree. So seems to me he has given real good advice to avoid the kinds of fights that are avoidable.

Randy

jlpskydive
02-04-2012, 15:46
I think this paper goes off the premise that you have already done a few things wrong. Put yourself in a place you shouldn't be and had a few drinks on top of it. Either way a recipe for disaster to start with. Now if I'm at a concert with the wife and some jackass decides to get handsy, or tell us we shouldn't be there (after we paid our 20 to 100 bucks to get it). Well BULLY you have met your match and I will stand my ground, but I'm 6'3 and 195 and little to no body fat. And at one point in my life really liked to fight and was pretty good at it. If I'm someplace that I really don't want to or should be, I will make a tactical advance to the rear......

TBO
02-04-2012, 15:46
If you show your ass... you stand a chance of getting it kicked.

alabaster
02-04-2012, 15:48
Every time(Far more than I'd like to admit) that I had trouble with a tool, I was involved in something I knew not to be. Sometimes it was good I walked(Or ran) away, since I was engaged in something that would've negated the SD argument all together(Many more than 10 years ago before I had defended myself twice in situations I should have avoided anyways). Sometimes, I was legal(Like being in a bar), but still involved in something I shouldn't have been. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good(Right, B.O?!) to be involved in. If you know you're armed, and will invariably will HAVE to use your firearm to defend yourself and your loved ones if attacked, STAY AWAY from places and people that invite trouble. I live near DC, and as you can imagine, there are many druggies, drunks, and general a*****es that flood the streets and public areas around here. I ask my wife to steer clear of places that she may have to engage people in not-so-pleasant discussions or actions. I stick to it myself, too. I've never been a bad-a**, and never invited trouble, but I've never been one to spook easily either. Still, I realize the cost of defending myself even if justified is far more expensive than planning a safer trip to the store or mall, or where ever. Not engaging the lunatic-screaming-raving-brain eating- toolbag is definitely cheaper and less troublesome than spending even one of these Zombie Defense 9mms in self defense. On that note..... I better read that article.

Gunhaver
02-04-2012, 15:59
If you've studied and understand evolutionary psychology then everything this article says makes perfect sense. Some of us have known this stuff for years and have had pleasant assault free lives as a result.

When carrying you're obligation is to remove yourself from the confrontation because you have to remove your firearm from the confrontation. If you're not carrying then feel free to get into a mouth off contest with the other drunk a-hole if you think you can take him and don't mind sitting in jail with a broken nose.

H&K 4 LIFE
02-04-2012, 17:00
Things to remember in relation to the article...

Do not break the law of the three stupids.

That is, do not go to stupid places, with stupid people, and do stupid things.

Do everything you can to de-escalate and leave a potentially hostile situation. Apologizing, even if you aren't wrong, may be the very simplest of things separating you from being forced into a circumstance where you must use deadly force to defend... and just simply walking away.

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.... He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." ~ Sun Tzu The Art of War

Deaf Smith
02-04-2012, 17:40
"Hey, got a cigarette?" is a pretty typical way to start a hold up.

I thought,"Oh look, a squirrel!" was the way they started holdups?

At SouthNarc's class on Unknown Contacts, pre-attack indicators are very heavy discussed and acted out in FOF, not only verbal ones but also body language indicators.

But it sure would be cool to take Dr. Rhoads class to.

Deaf

PAGunner
02-04-2012, 17:41
I think you miss the point of the article. The most likely violence you will experience may well be from an obnoxious jerk, not a robber. That's been my experience. Only been in 1 robbery, and had lots of confrontations with idiots.

He specifically mentions that is not the only source of violence, does not suggest you not defend yourself if attacked. He's merely pointing out the most common way people talk themselves into violence when they could be avoiding it easily. Seems to me the best strategy is to avoid a fight if you're not in one, and to win if you are in one. But even if you win, you're likely to be injured to some degree. So seems to me he has given real good advice to avoid the kinds of fights that are avoidable.

Randy

I'm a physician but as I've stated on other threads, in a previous life I was a bouncer. Generally when people size me up, with the look in my eyes, they determine I'm someone not to be messed with. I've yet to be challenged as an adult... Couple instances where people acted like a blow fish but when they saw my reaction backed down quick. I've been in many fights as a teen, more than most, but that's a necessity when going to an inner city school. I've never started a fight even as a teen. I don't like fights, nor do I consider myself a "tough guy", I believe I can hold my own but we all know fights are unpredictable and I have no illusions I can whip a guy who trains 2-3 hours everyday in MMA, but I do believe in the words, Sic Vis Pacem Parabellum. That is why I started boxing and lifting weights in my early teens and why I carrry and train with a firearm.

I believe in walk softly carry a big stick. Like TBO said if you show your ass you might get it kicked. So ya, I think the author is a complete D-bag, I stand by what I said when I say he's lived a sheltered life. He's assuming everyone is your typical butt wipe who goes out drinking and gets liquid courage, which is why the prism he sees the world is warped.

PAGunner
02-04-2012, 17:44
If you've studied and understand evolutionary psychology then everything this article says makes perfect sense. Some of us have known this stuff for years and have had pleasant assault free lives as a result.

When carrying you're obligation is to remove yourself from the confrontation because you have to remove your firearm from the confrontation. If you're not carrying then feel free to get into a mouth off contest with the other drunk a-hole if you think you can take him and don't mind sitting in jail with a broken nose.

"with the other drunk a-hole"? Really bro? You see the world through a warped prism also. I occasionally drink but I'm ALWAYS in full control of my attitude, I'm never a "drunk a-hole". Personally if you're one of those, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun because you're an idiot and can't control yourself, just sayin.

Sam Spade
02-04-2012, 17:59
So ya, I think the author is a complete D-bag, I stand by what I said when I say he's lived a sheltered life. He's assuming everyone is your typical butt wipe who goes out drinking and gets liquid courage, which is why the prism he sees the world is warped.

While "D-bag" reflects personal tastes, you might want to google Marc "Animal" MacYoung before you commit yourself to the "sheltered life" opinion.

jellis11
02-04-2012, 18:01
"Hey, got a cigarette?" is a pretty typical way to start a hold up.

Around here it's "hey, you got the time?"

PAGunner
02-04-2012, 18:46
While "D-bag" reflects personal tastes, you might want to google Marc "Animal" MacYoung before you commit yourself to the "sheltered life" opinion.

Great salesman, not much more, my initial impression has been verified.

MikeLadner
02-04-2012, 18:54
For you folks carrying a badge (active LE only training), you might find it an interesting way to spend 8 hours to take the 1-day class from Dr Steve Rhoads Ph.D (former police chief) on Detecting Danger.

Interesting discussion involving subconscious, verbal & nonverbal communications, phenomenological thought process, and proxemics & danger.

The verbal communications discussion highlights verbal indicators of deception and how word tense and usage can be used for evaluation of individuals' intentions, and the nonverbal discussion highlights how to interpret specific non-verbal gestures that suggest emotional responses of anger or violence.

Dr. Rhoads is an amazing wealth of knowledge and an excellent instructor. His Interview and Interrogation classes are superb as well.

Sam Spade
02-04-2012, 19:28
"with the other drunk a-hole"? Really bro? You see the world through a warped prism also. I occasionally drink but I'm ALWAYS in full control of my attitude, I'm never a "drunk a-hole". Personally if you're one of those, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun because you're an idiot and can't control yourself, just sayin.

Liquor only lowers inhibitions and judgement. There are other killers, chief among them being ego. The kind that says "I think I'll try and out-intimidate this bully, just to teach him a lesson", for example.

happyguy
02-04-2012, 19:56
Most fights can be avoided by simply not engaging in the game.

The old saw about walking away from a fight is mostly true.

Lot's of people tried to teach me this lesson. I finally learned it from my wife.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Gunhaver
02-04-2012, 20:07
"with the other drunk a-hole"? Really bro? You see the world through a warped prism also. I occasionally drink but I'm ALWAYS in full control of my attitude, I'm never a "drunk a-hole". Personally if you're one of those, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun because you're an idiot and can't control yourself, just sayin.

Perfect example right here. Someone makes a statement not directed at anyone in particular and someone else decides to take offense and escalate by making accusations and assumptions.

Warp
02-04-2012, 20:10
That article is of little to no use to me. Well, I only read the short intro...but that seems to be enough.

alabaster
02-05-2012, 13:14
This article may have saved my life last night. An old friend of mine was over with his family to watch the fights. He got drunk(Which he's always had a problem with), and started getting all loud and obnoxious and belligerent. He ended up threatening me in front of my wife, sister, brother in law, and nephew. I got flashes of that article thru my head. Was it my ego? Was I really in danger? I was sober, but my ego definitely hurt. He stepped into my face 3 different times, even balling up his fists. I had my pistol on as always. I just kept thinking if I hit him as drunk as he is I'm sure he's gonna drop. I couldn't help but think he might go for my gun. I said to myself, "Self, as bad as you wanna sit here and bicker and feed into this ignorance, you probably ought to get the gun out of the situation." So I did. I'm glad I did, too. He's been known to swing bottles and what not. I realized last night, we're never doing anything constructive anyways. 3 stupids, right? Stupid things with stupid people in stupid places. He's a thing of my past now. I hate to say it, since we really were close, but this is going nowhere positive. I'm just glad it's over before someone got hurt.

RussP
02-05-2012, 14:39
CONTRASTThat article is of little to no use to me. Well, I only read the short intro...but that seems to be enough.

This article may have saved my life last night. .

Not every bit if information is good and right for all people.

RussP
02-05-2012, 14:41
That article is of little to no use to me. Well, I only read the short intro...but that seems to be enough.Why is it of no use to you?

Warp
02-05-2012, 14:42
CONTRAST



Not every bit if information is good and right for all people.

The #1 indicator of an imminent attack didn't seem to be present though. Unless alabaster was being an ******* and didn't mention it.


Edit: Seeing the asterisks...Is it okay to link outside content which contains language blocked by Glock Talk?

geoemery
02-05-2012, 14:46
This article may have saved my life last night. An old friend of mine was over with his family to watch the fights. He got drunk(Which he's always had a problem with), and started getting all loud and obnoxious and belligerent. He ended up threatening me in front of my wife, sister, brother in law, and nephew. I got flashes of that article thru my head. Was it my ego? Was I really in danger? I was sober, but my ego definitely hurt. He stepped into my face 3 different times, even balling up his fists. I had my pistol on as always. I just kept thinking if I hit him as drunk as he is I'm sure he's gonna drop. I couldn't help but think he might go for my gun. I said to myself, "Self, as bad as you wanna sit here and bicker and feed into this ignorance, you probably ought to get the gun out of the situation." So I did. I'm glad I did, too. He's been known to swing bottles and what not. I realized last night, we're never doing anything constructive anyways. 3 stupids, right? Stupid things with stupid people in stupid places. He's a thing of my past now. I hate to say it, since we really were close, but this is going nowhere positive. I'm just glad it's over before someone got hurt.

Discretion is always the better part of valor. I think it is good to make him an ex-friend. Guys like that only bring more trouble and next time the results maybe different.

Sam Spade
02-05-2012, 15:31
The #1 indicator of an imminent attack didn't seem to be present though. Unless alabaster was being an ******* and didn't mention it.


Edit: Seeing the asterisks...Is it okay to link outside content which contains language blocked by Glock Talk?

I'd say he wasn't, and so it defused. If he had been, if he'd matched attitude barb for barb, taught the drunk a lesson, would the outcome have been different? Sounds like it to me.

Warp
02-05-2012, 15:34
I'd say he wasn't, and so it defused. If he had been, if he'd matched attitude barb for barb, drunk taught the a lesson, would the outcome have been different? Sounds like it to me.

Yes, if he had initiated a physical fight the outcome would have been different...there would have been a physical fight.

Sam Spade
02-05-2012, 16:18
Yes, if he had initiated a physical fight the outcome would have been different...there would have been a physical fight.

You seem to have the impression that guys who look to teach lessons are by definition initiating a fight.

How about if he had flared his lats and run his mouth, so that the size of his johnson was obvious to all? You know, making sure the alpha was plainly identified. Think that might have led to the other guy going Neandertal in response?

Or are you actually agreeing with the article that one can provoke a physical fight by acting like Adam Henry?

IMightBeWrong
02-05-2012, 17:11
Some of the critics of the article in the OP reminded me of this:

Mystery Train - The shooting - YouTube

To me, it comes down to this: What's more important, your pride or your family? Because if your pride comes first, you may not see your family again. You don't always need to be Mr. Macho and stand your ground. There's more to life than being in the right.

Warp
02-05-2012, 17:30
You seem to have the impression that guys who look to teach lessons are by definition initiating a fight.

How about if he had flared his lats and run his mouth, so that the size of his johnson was obvious to all? You know, making sure the alpha was plainly identified. Think that might have led to the other guy going Neandertal in response?

Or are you actually agreeing with the article that one can provoke a physical fight by acting like Adam Henry?

I guess I am hoping that the other poster, who carries and was carrying, wasn't saying he would have flared his lats and run his mouth and gone down the road towards a physical fight...while carrying...if not for having recently read this article saying that, believe it or not, that isn't a good idea.

alabaster
02-05-2012, 17:50
No. He and I go back over 20 years. We've been in plenty scuffles with and against each other. I "Cleaned up" long ago while he was doing a bid. I usually keep my cool better than most(Often because I want to diffuse the situation, but sometimes for fear of a beating!). Seriously, I'm not perfect. I do know to avoid conflict at almost any cost. Still, we have a history, and HE DID threaten me and a few members of my family. Not okay. At all. Nevertheless, this thread did come at an interesting moment. Knowing that he and I really don't have anything in common anymore, and he's interested in living like we did as teenagers is key. I have no need or real desire to hang around with people that stay tore up and are not trying to better themselves in general. I've spent the last few years getting my wife and I back on track. We almost lost everything we had together. I just see no more need to be around people that get me to risk all that I/we have worked so hard to put back together.

Dragoon44
02-05-2012, 17:57
The author of the article is pretty much articulating the experience of any police officer that has to deal with such situations in progress ( as in a disturbance or DV call) or deal with the aftermath of such incidents.

By and large it boils down to the battery(s) took place because neither A hole had the sense to shut their mouth and walk away.

harrygunner
02-05-2012, 18:30
There's a difference btween "the number one indicator" and "the only indicator". This wasn't about victim situations, but about the more common case of people joining in the "game" started by someone else.

I often wonder if an idiot who is looking for a fight does not realize the person who just declined his offer may have had the facilities to take his life.

Bren
02-05-2012, 18:39
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/preattack.html

Another superb piece from Marc. Read everything, including the footnotes.

I can't believe you're serious. Reading that, plus his bio = POS with no qualifications of any kind scamming for money. Nearly every adult male I'm moderately friendly with is more qualified to teach about violence and self-defense than that idiot.

The author of the article is pretty much articulating the experience of any police officer that has to deal with such situations in progress ( as in a disturbance or DV call) or deal with the aftermath of such incidents.

By and large it boils down to the battery(s) took place because neither A hole had the sense to shut their mouth and walk away.

I agree that's true, but in this case, what of it isn't BS equals some guy who is half a step above a mall ninja (at least he's probably been in a real fight) repeating what common sense tells anybody, as if he is some sort of expert. I suspect his correctional experience is also about 95% fiction.

alabaster
02-05-2012, 21:59
A lot of us know what the right thing to do is, but sometimes lack the judgement to walk away. Granted, I think most people with a CCW do have a deeper sense of understanding "I need to walk away" than non-CCW'ers, but it's not 100%. I think an above poster said "not all information is for all people", or something along those lines. This is very true. Not everyone has had official training or exposure to this mindset of "Being the bigger man".

steveksux
02-05-2012, 23:01
The author of the article is pretty much articulating the experience of any police officer that has to deal with such situations in progress ( as in a disturbance or DV call) or deal with the aftermath of such incidents.

By and large it boils down to the battery(s) took place because neither A hole had the sense to shut their mouth and walk away.


I agree that's true, but in this case, what of it isn't BS equals some guy who is half a step above a mall ninja (at least he's probably been in a real fight) repeating what common sense tells anybody, as if he is some sort of expert. I suspect his correctional experience is also about 95% fiction.If it's true, then he's right, doesn't matter what his background is.

And if common sense tells anybody that, the police officers wouldn't have the experiences mentioned above that confirm people really don't get what the author is saying.

So it sounds like he's right. And its not common knowledge, further proven by the number of people disagreeing with him.

Randy

IMightBeWrong
02-05-2012, 23:38
If it's true, then he's right, doesn't matter what his background is.

And if common sense tells anybody that, the police officers wouldn't have the experiences mentioned above that confirm people really don't get what the author is saying.

So it sounds like he's right. And its not common knowledge, further proven by the number of people disagreeing with him.

Randy

This. It's also common sense not to point a weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy, but it happens all the time and that's why we as responsible gun owners drill it into ourselves.

Warp
02-05-2012, 23:53
That's why I don't like the term common sense. "Common sense" is used politically to push laws/restrictions/etc. Instead of telling us WHY it really ought to be, they claim it is "common sense".

Then there is the little saying that 'common sense isn't common'.

I have also noticed that a lot of 'common sense' things are flat out incorrect.



I like to use the term Good Sense

Sgt. Rambo
02-06-2012, 05:16
Check this story out and the outcome.... Pretty interesting indicator there.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/05/intended-victims-fight-back-during-cellphone-robbery-killing-would-be-thief/?test=latestnews