Opinions on .45 ACP 230 grain vs. 185 grain + p [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Opinions on .45 ACP 230 grain vs. 185 grain + p


Fighting Irish
02-05-2012, 16:30
Has any one tested or had any experience w/ the .45 185 grain + p self defense ammo. I just picked up my Gen 4 21 and bought the standard 230 grain jacketed hollow points. Just curious about the performance differences between the two rounds.

Rumbler_G20
02-05-2012, 16:35
Define "performance".

Barrier penetration? Feeding reliability? % of one shot incapacitation?

Need more info. :wavey:

cowboy1964
02-05-2012, 18:02
Stick with 230. Recoil with a 185gr +P has to be harsher.

At 185gr you may as well just get a .40 and have a better sectional density and higher capacity.

PghJim
02-05-2012, 18:23
If you went Federal HS or HST, or GD or GS 230, you would be good to go. There is only one outstanding 185 +p or just p and that would be the GS.

http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All

fredj338
02-05-2012, 23:15
Yeah, not a big fan of +P in the 45 in any flavor. The std vel 185gr RGS makes an honest 950fps in my little OM & 990fps in my 1911PD, recoil is very manageable.

Ak.Hiker
02-05-2012, 23:15
It may depend on your ammo needs. I prefer the deeper penetration of the 230 grain loads myself. One of my favorites is the Hornady 230 grain XTP or TAP +P.

Glolt20-91
02-06-2012, 00:34
I've heard mixed results with the 185gr +P Golden Sabers and negative feedback on the 200gr Gold Dots.

This link should help with your choices;

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

FWIW, there is not a national database for OIS detailing weapons used, let alone number of shots fired.

HKLovingIT
02-06-2012, 00:37
The 185 +p will shoot flatter at longer ranges, pretty flat out to 100 yards.

I almost always go with the 230 gr Gold Dot in any .45 for social purposes.

A 185 gr +p that might be useful to know about is the Remington green and yellow 50 count box. It will feed in even the most picky pistols. If you ever get a .45 that refuses to feed hollow points, even Golden Sabers (another great round in a picky pistol or just a good round anyway) try the Green and Yellow box Remington 185 +p.

Other than that, I don't often carry them. When I do, I use 185 gr +p Golden Saber.

fredj338
02-06-2012, 11:25
The 185 +p will shoot flatter at longer ranges, pretty flat out to 100 yards.

I almost always go with the 230 gr Gold Dot in any .45 for social purposes.

A 185 gr +p that might be useful to know about is the Remington green and yellow 50 count box. It will feed in even the most picky pistols. If you ever get a .45 that refuses to feed hollow points, even Golden Sabers (another great round in a picky pistol or just a good round anyway) try the Green and Yellow box Remington 185 +p.

Other than that, I don't often carry them. When I do, I use 185 gr +p Golden Saber.

Flatter, funny. The diff between a 185gr @ 1100fps & a 230 @ 850fps is just not that big a deal out to even 100yds, like that is the measuring stick for a service cartridged anyway? The cheaper RP 185gr stuff is very erratic as to expansion. The RGS is a far better bullet design. Both will feed in most any pistol.

The Pirate
02-06-2012, 11:37
I shoot 100 yards quite a bit with pistols and I can tell no difference. I guess there should be but they both make the gong sing if I can hold steady.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

fredj338
02-06-2012, 13:54
I shoot 100 yards quite a bit with pistols and I can tell no difference. I guess there should be but they both make the gong sing if I can hold steady.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

That is the point, to 100yds, there isn't much diff between a 850fps load & a 1300fps load, maybe 2" of drop, most can't hold 2" @ 100yds. Beyond 100yds, you start seeing it. Out to 50yds, the limit for maybe 90% of handguns hooters, ALL handgun rounds are flat shooting.:dunno:

9mm +p+
02-06-2012, 14:26
Personally I prefer 230's in 45, I run Ranger T's in my 45's, I also have 230 GD's as well.

HKLovingIT
02-06-2012, 15:22
That is the point, to 100yds, there isn't much diff between a 850fps load & a 1300fps load, maybe 2" of drop, most can't hold 2" @ 100yds. Beyond 100yds, you start seeing it. Out to 50yds, the limit for maybe 90% of handguns hooters, ALL handgun rounds are flat shooting.:dunno:

Fred, I'm just going to give you a hug. There, now I know you feel better.

I think a lot of people would have trouble hitting anything moving at 50 yards with a handgun much less 100 yards. Wasn't suggesting it was a requirement or benchmark for a SD round. That would be silly. But, then again, this is the Internet. Someone will be along shortly with "This one time my friend and me were..." :rofl:

fredj338
02-06-2012, 17:35
Fred, I'm just going to give you a hug. There, now I know you feel better.

I think a lot of people would have trouble hitting anything moving at 50 yards with a handgun much less 100 yards. Wasn't suggesting it was a requirement or benchmark for a SD round. That would be silly. But, then again, this is the Internet. Someone will be along shortly with "This one time my friend and me were..." :rofl:

Then why mention it? I don't need a hug thanks, but the statement is laughable every time I hear this or that round is "flatter" shooting, like most can actually benefit from a couple of inches less drop @ 100yds from any handgun. Shoot out that far sometime & then you would never use that line again. Here, now you need the hug.:grouphug:
BTW, yes I have shot well past 100yds many times, I used to shoot met handgun sil, all the way to 220yds! I can tell you, @ 100yds, it doesn't take much sight correction to get hits on a 6" plate w/ anything. BTW, who said anything about a moving target? Not impossible BTW, just asking.

NEOH212
02-06-2012, 18:56
Yeah, not a big fan of +P in the 45 in any flavor. The std vel 185gr RGS makes an honest 950fps in my little OM & 990fps in my 1911PD, recoil is very manageable.

Same here. I stick with the standard velocity 230 grain stuff. I never took a liking to the lighter loads in the .45 ACP though.

The Pirate
02-06-2012, 19:28
Then why mention it? I don't need a hug thanks, but the statement is laughable every time I hear this or that round is "flatter" shooting, like most can actually benefit from a couple of inches less drop @ 100yds from any handgun. Shoot out that far sometime & then you would never use that line again. Here, now you need the hug.:grouphug:
BTW, yes I have shot well past 100yds many times, I used to shoot met handgun sil, all the way to 220yds! I can tell you, @ 100yds, it doesn't take much sight correction to get hits on a 6" plate w/ anything. BTW, who said anything about a moving target? Not impossible BTW, just asking.

I shot my G20, 1911, and get this a Ruger mk3 at 100 yards today. They all shot as flat as the other as far as I could tell. I did have to aim at the top of the plate with the .22 though. I was shooting at an 8 inch plate.

fredj338
02-06-2012, 19:54
I shot my G20, 1911, and get this a Ruger mk3 at 100 yards today. They all shot as flat as the other as far as I could tell. I did have to aim at the top of the plate with the .22 though. I was shooting at an 8 inch plate.

Yep, kinda what I was getting at.:whistling:

Fighting Irish
02-06-2012, 21:03
Good stuff fellas. Thanks for the responses. Looks like I'll be sticking w/ my 230's. Sounds like the reviews for golden sabers are pretty good....

cole
02-06-2012, 22:04
230gr. IMO it's the more consistent, better performer.

MinnesnowtaWild
02-06-2012, 22:28
I am a newb to .45 ACP, but wasn't the 230 grain designed mostly for the 1911 with a 5" barrel? So wouldn't it be more appropriate to use a 185 or 200 grain load in a short barrel .45 ACP such as a 3.5" barrel? The velocity of a 230g bullet out of a 3" barrel has to be very low, in the low 700 fps range I would guess or maybe less. Is that even enough speed to expand properly with a hollow point?

Please be easy on me, I am just thinking out loud. Not trying to debate anyone.

Tiro Fijo
02-06-2012, 23:26
The Rem. 185 gr. +p is a real Powerhouse! I have no problem with these and the NYSP & FL Hwy. Patrol are having great luck with the .45 GAP using a 200 gr. GD (same bullet & same vel. as .45 ACP).

Years ago, I knew of a story where a fella using a small Detonics .45 shot a biker scumbag with a 185 gr. HP (don't remember the make) and it blew his heart through his spine. I think the biker only weighed 299 lbs. so it didn't meet the GT 300 lb. meth crazed, leather coated, crazed felon criterion. :supergrin:

fredj338
02-06-2012, 23:38
I am a newb to .45 ACP, but wasn't the 230 grain designed mostly for the 1911 with a 5" barrel? So wouldn't it be more appropriate to use a 185 or 200 grain load in a short barrel .45 ACP such as a 3.5" barrel? The velocity of a 230g bullet out of a 3" barrel has to be very low, in the low 700 fps range I would guess or maybe less. Is that even enough speed to expand properly with a hollow point?

Please be easy on me, I am just thinking out loud. Not trying to debate anyone.

Most modern designed JHP (not the std Rem) will expand some down to 750fps or so. The 230gr RGS does quite well in my OM 3.4" bbl in wetpack tests @ a chronographed 775fps. I would certainly feel fine carrying that, but I do like the Hornady 200gr XTP in my shorter/lighter 45s. It makes well above 850fps, drives very deep & always expands to 65cal denim covered wetpack test, which BTW, I find equal to balistic gel for determining expansion.

HKLovingIT
02-06-2012, 23:55
Then why mention it? I don't need a hug thanks, but the statement is laughable every time I hear this or that round is "flatter" shooting, like most can actually benefit from a couple of inches less drop @ 100yds from any handgun. Shoot out that far sometime & then you would never use that line again. Here, now you need the hug.:grouphug:
BTW, yes I have shot well past 100yds many times, I used to shoot met handgun sil, all the way to 220yds! I can tell you, @ 100yds, it doesn't take much sight correction to get hits on a 6" plate w/ anything. BTW, who said anything about a moving target? Not impossible BTW, just asking.

Thank you for the hug. I do feel better. :supergrin:

The OP mentioned self defense rounds, which is why I mentioned moving targets. I assumed his intended target would be likely moving.

PrecisionRifleman
02-07-2012, 00:23
230 has proven to be FAR more accurate than the 185gr +P GS I tested in a my G30SF (now gone). There was a LOT of muzzle blass and blinding flash even in a well light indoor range using the 185gr. I like to be able to see my target for fast follow up shots, and I am a bigger fan of accuracy of ft lbs of energy so I stuck with 230gr & 200gr XTP's when I was still shooting 45 Auto.

NG VI
02-07-2012, 12:53
Loss of speed with barrel length isn't consistent across all bullet weights and loads for a given caliber. Heavier bullets lose less of their velocity than lightweight bullets out of shorter barrels, and they are designed in such a way that they are better able to perform at somewhat reduced velocity.

And barrels Glock 30/36 length and up are basically full-sized for all practical purposes. Barrel length isn't all that important.

fredj338
02-07-2012, 14:26
Thank you for the hug. I do feel better. :supergrin:

The OP mentioned self defense rounds, which is why I mentioned moving targets. I assumed his intended target would be likely moving.

OK, if it makes yo ufeel better, but I still don't see how you qualify the 100yd flatter shooting thing, irrelivent.:dunno:

tsmo1066
02-07-2012, 15:08
230 has proven to be FAR more accurate than the 185gr +P GS I tested in a my G30SF (now gone). There was a LOT of muzzle blass and blinding flash even in a well light indoor range using the 185gr. I like to be able to see my target for fast follow up shots, and I am a bigger fan of accuracy of ft lbs of energy so I stuck with 230gr & 200gr XTP's when I was still shooting 45 Auto.

This is my main beef with most 185+P loads, especially in shorter barrels. The muzzle flash on many of them can range from 'distracting' to 'flash-bulb'.

cowboy1964
02-07-2012, 18:16
A 3" .45 is really pushing the low end, regardless of bullet weight, IMO. I'm not even really very thrilled with a 3.5" 9mm like the G26, but it is what it is. If you look at expanded bullets from a G19 vs a G26, for example, you will clearly see differences. Will it matter? Probably not. PROBABLY not.

chasbo00
02-07-2012, 18:42
Only the Barnes all copper 185 grain bullets get the stamp of approval here:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

.45ACP
Barnes XPB/TAC-XP 185gr HP loaded by:
Cor-Bon (DPX45185)
Taurus (TCB45ACP185HP)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)

clogspecialist
02-08-2012, 12:12
well the 185gr JHP is better for people self defense, the lighter bullet is less likely to over-penetrate (even though it probably will anyways) and with the higher velocity, the hollow point bullet will do its job better. some 230gr JHP's will not expand much, if at all, so for your personal protection id go with 185gr HP's

fredj338
02-08-2012, 13:36
well the 185gr JHP is better for people self defense, the lighter bullet is less likely to over-penetrate (even though it probably will anyways) and with the higher velocity, the hollow point bullet will do its job better. some 230gr JHP's will not expand much, if at all, so for your personal protection id go with 185gr HP's

I don't disagree that a good 185gr JHP is a good fight stopper, but none are likely to over penetrate as they all barely make the 12" FBI min. The 185gr RGS, GDHP or XTP are the best of the light wts IMO.

NG VI
02-08-2012, 13:43
No 230 grain JHP developed or modified in the last fifteen-twenty years won't expand. There are plenty of 230s that get great expansion, much better than what can be had from the 185s.

It's not 1988, bullets don't need to break the sound barrier to function properly and expand well.

PghJim
02-08-2012, 14:24
I have tested a lot of rounds in 45 to see what would expand after going through 4 layers of denim and into gallon jugs of water. This is out of a three inch barrel. HST 230gr +p, but not regular pressure; 185gr +p RGS, but not regular pressure; Ranger T 230 +p, but not regular pressure and 230gr Gold Dots, both short barrel and regular. I would go with regular Speer GD. It expanded just as much as the short barrel, but penetrated further. DT 230gr GD did really well. The copper 185gr +p loads barely opened, but may be an option. When I carry my Kahr P45 with a 3.5" barrel, I load with DT 230gr GD's, but regular Speer would do if that is all that I had.

Glolt20-91
02-08-2012, 23:52
well the 185gr JHP is better for people self defense, the lighter bullet is less likely to over-penetrate (even though it probably will anyways) and with the higher velocity, the hollow point bullet will do its job better. some 230gr JHP's will not expand much, if at all, so for your personal protection id go with 185gr HP's

I simply have to disagree with your statement, 230gr JHPs tend to be reliable expanders across the board. A bullet is only as strong as its weakest pedal and any hollow point bullet can fail to expand for whatever reason/s.

Given the reliability of the 230s to perform, I've never seen a reason to test 185s except for the Barnes bullet.

One of the more spectacular tests was the RA45TP through a 1/2" of bleached out cow bone.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7484901#post7484901

hunter won
02-11-2012, 14:59
The Rem. 185 gr. +p is a real Powerhouse! I have no problem with these and the NYSP & FL Hwy. Patrol are having great luck with the .45 GAP using a 200 gr. GD (same bullet & same vel. as .45 ACP).

Years ago, I knew of a story where a fella using a small Detonics .45 shot a biker scumbag with a 185 gr. HP (don't remember the make) and it blew his heart through his spine. I think the biker only weighed 299 lbs. so it didn't meet the GT 300 lb. meth crazed, leather coated, crazed felon criterion. :supergrin: I believe a Huntington Beach P.O. fired eight shots of 185 grain +p Remington from his service P220 .45 ACP into a big biker and survived. Shot placement!

PghJim
02-13-2012, 18:00
I know this data has been questioned and it does not include anything on the HST bullets, but I believe it has some value. This link is regular pressure 45 ACP, and you can click to +p to see about Reminton 185gr.

http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All

K5TN
02-14-2012, 13:39
I seem to have good results with the Hornady 200 gr. XTPs out of my G30. Anybody have a different story??

johnniet
02-16-2012, 20:57
Call it old school or not, I believe the 230 gr is the golden standard for the .45 ACP and shouldn't be messed with. The .45 ACP was designed to expand and create a BIG hole in whatever it hit. Why mess with a proven design.

Tiro Fijo
02-16-2012, 22:24
Call it old school or not, I believe the 230 gr is the golden standard for the .45 ACP and shouldn't be messed with. The .45 ACP was designed to expand and create a BIG hole in whatever it hit. Why mess with a proven design.


Actually, the .45 ACP as designed by JMB was a 200 gr. bullet at 800 fps. The Military later asked for a 230 bullet. The Military cannot use HP bullets and this, as well as simply tradition, dictated the caliber and not because it was a "death ray". They don't all "fall to hardball."