7.62 x 25 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jtriron
02-08-2012, 05:11
The ballistics look good on this caliber. So why are none of the major gun manufactures making a gun in this caliber?
Thanks

collim1
02-08-2012, 06:38
Would be wicked out of a full auto at close range. Low recoil and high rate of fire.

From a pistol modern .38spl or bigger is a better option for SD IMO.

banger
02-08-2012, 06:54
Would be wicked out of a full auto at close range. Low recoil and high rate of fire.

From a pistol modern .38spl or bigger is a better option for SD IMO.


If they make the full auto, I think they should name it....PPSH 41.

Yeah, that would be a good name.

Unfortunately Collim, you are about 70 years too late.

collim1
02-08-2012, 07:00
If they make the full auto, I think they should name it....PPSH 41.

Yeah, that would be a good name.

Unfortunately Collim, you are about 70 years too late.

I am aware that full autos in this caliber have existed for a long time. The question was why are no modern pistols made in this caliber. I just re-read my post and didn't see any cause for confusion or a smart*** reply like yours.

Maybe replacing "would" with "is" will help.

English
02-08-2012, 07:19
There are two problems. One is that the OAL is greater than the 10mm/.45ACP and so double stack magazines would make the grip too big for most and it is not a round for a small pistol. The second is that there is a strong bias amongst shooters for bigger calibers which will make marketing difficult. With the advent of the .327, that might change.

Personally I would like to see it re-designed as a 7.62x23 or 22mm so that it could fit in smaller grip pistols. It would loose a little performance but be more practical.

English

Brucev
02-08-2012, 07:19
Local gunshop has several of the Tokarev M-57's for sale. Look like they are well made... and that little 7.62 appears to be one hot round. Been thinking of trying it out on paper... and steel plates!

Kaybe
02-08-2012, 08:26
I have a Romanian Tok and just love it. But, it is not a good pistol for CCW. It is thin, but you would have to chamber it manually or carry it with the hammer at the half cock notch. Not me. WOLF ammo used to make hollowpoints for it, but can't find them anymore. Major ammo makers don't make it due to the fact that there are only two pistol(handguns) chambered for it. The Tokarov and the CZ-52. These are not self defense type handguns. In the Sportsman's Guide surplus catalog, there is a device that allows you to put hollowpoints in the Tok rounds. I love the round, but there isn't a good gun to go with it. Someone made a Tok conversion kit for the .38 super 1911, but have no idea if it is any good or not. I would love a Tok conversion for the Glock, but since the surplus ammo has dried up, there is no sense in doing that either.

Kaybe
02-08-2012, 08:27
The Chinese did take the Tok round and put in a .22 rifle bullet with a sabot. Not sure how well it worked.

kirgi08
02-08-2012, 08:41
I carry a Tok cocked and locked without a worry,know your pistols folks.'08.

dkf
02-08-2012, 10:02
I'd rather see a factory pistol chambered in 9x25 dillon. Uses standard .355"-.356" pistol bullets.

Merkavaboy
02-08-2012, 10:33
The ballistics look good on this caliber. So why are none of the major gun manufactures making a gun in this caliber?
Thanks

Why would a company want to make a modern pistol for an obsolete cartridge? There is no company making modern SD ammo in this caliber, so you are either stuck with reloading your own ammo for SD (which I won't go into here) or use one of the few factory made FMJ loads or the poorly designed "hollow point" load by Prvi Partizan. And the use of the extremely dangerous over penetrative FMJ bullet for SD is, IMO, akin to criminal negligence. We already know that the 9mm FMJ at 1000+ fps is dangerously over penetrative, the 7.62 Tok FMJ at 1300+ fps is even worse.

If people want to shoot the Tok cartridge then stick to the surplus pistols currently available and use it as a plinking pistol, not as a SD pistol.

BobbyT
02-08-2012, 10:53
And the use of the extremely dangerous over penetrative FMJ bullet for SD is, IMO, akin to criminal negligence. We already know that the 9mm FMJ at 1000+ fps is dangerously over penetrative, the 7.62 Tok FMJ at 1300+ fps is even worse.

This is silly. Any round that'll penetrate a person sufficiently will penetrate multiple walls. Arguing small differences like the 10% or what have you between pistol rounds is irrelevant.

You really think 6 layers of drywall is reasonable while 7 is criminally negligent? That's statistical noise...shot direction and any random object in the path far outweigh it.

The Tok round is not a .308. It's a lighter, slower, longer .357 Mag.

clogspecialist
02-08-2012, 10:57
I have a mint condition 1954 CZ52 i have put over 600 rounds through in the past 3 years Ive had it. Overall it is a great old cheap surplus pistol. I added a hogue handall universal palm-swell/finger grooved grip sleeve and a wolff 22lb recoil spring and it handles even better than it did stock. I strongly disagree with people saying the 7.62x25mm round is highly impractical, as it is not. Although yes there are only 2 different platforms (handguns) available for the cartridge, the ballistics are actually pretty good. the standard military surplus round is a 86grain fmj bullet going about 1600fps, well welcome to reed's ammunition and research, they make a number of custom loads in this caliber and i bought a 50rd box of 100gr hornady xtp rounds for a very good price. these heavier bullets are going 1500fps! when i shot a few at the range these things SCREAM! every shot the person in the lane next to me would look over and wonder what the hell i was shooting. as to over penetration, yes these 100gr xtp's would probably over penetrate as they are fairly heavy, but if you had proper designed hollow points and a light weight going fairly fast, say a 60gr going 2100fps, you would come into the theory of hydrostatic shock (isntantaneous death from a high-velocity bullet) and the lighter weight projectile would have a less likely chance of over penetrating. Also the cartridge has a very flat trajectory, and with military surplus rounds i could easily explode water bottles at 30yds. 7.62x25mm should be more popular than it is

Merkavaboy
02-08-2012, 11:40
This is silly. Any round that'll penetrate a person sufficiently will penetrate multiple walls. Arguing small differences like the 10% or what have you between pistol rounds is irrelevant.

You really think 6 layers of drywall is reasonable while 7 is criminally negligent? That's statistical noise...shot direction and any random object in the path far outweigh it.

The Tok round is not a .308. It's a lighter, slower, longer .357 Mag.

Where did I say anything about drywall?

dkf
02-08-2012, 11:40
This is silly. Any round that'll penetrate a person sufficiently will penetrate multiple walls. Arguing small differences like the 10% or what have you between pistol rounds is irrelevant.

You really think 6 layers of drywall is reasonable while 7 is criminally negligent? That's statistical noise...shot direction and any random object in the path far outweigh it.

The Tok round is not a .308. It's a lighter, slower, longer .357 Mag.

So where exactly did he mention drywall? Looked to me like he was referring to the bullet just passing through a human target thus possibly injuring someone else in the process.

MinnesnowtaWild
02-08-2012, 23:21
Wish I knew someone who had a Tok pistol. I might have to get one some day in the future. Do you 7.62x25 gurus see the ammo eventually drying up and going away? Or will it be around a while? I wonder this same question about the 9x18 Mak.

Merkavaboy
02-09-2012, 01:36
Prvi Partizan, Sellier & Bellot and Winchester still makes the Tok ammo. There are nearly triple the amount of Mak rounds still being made, so there's no chance of Mak ammo drying up anytime soon.

RottnJP
07-24-2012, 20:24
By my math, the 9x25 at 147 grains has better sectional density, and might give the advantages of the 7.62x25 without it's disadvantages.

Is 9x25, perhaps, the modern version of the Tok capability we've been saying we'd like to see?

I am wondering if that would potentially give everything you like about 7.62x25 along with the benefits of larger bullet, better bullet selection, and modern platform?

Decguns
07-24-2012, 20:48
Ruger offered the P89 with a set of 9MM & 30 Luger barrels. There's no use in redesigning the X25 into a shorter cartridge to fit in 9MM guns. You'd just end up with a 30 Luger cartridge. With the 357 Sig, why bother with a new X25 commercial pistol?

The X25 has been replaced by the 9MAK. There's a lot of X25 surplus out there, but it will slowly dry up. All you really have is Prvi and S&B loading it. Winchester metric calibers are imported from Prvi.

You can always have fun with the X25 and load it with .223 projo's in 30 cal sabots. Since it has a 1-10 twist rate, they fly rather well. It does take some ingenuity to get the case down to the correct overall length with the sabot. I like to use 5.56 cases to make the X25 brass anyway... so no big deal.

unit1069
07-24-2012, 20:52
I have a mint condition 1954 CZ52 i have put over 600 rounds through in the past 3 years Ive had it. Overall it is a great old cheap surplus pistol. I added a hogue handall universal palm-swell/finger grooved grip sleeve and a wolff 22lb recoil spring and it handles even better than it did stock. I strongly disagree with people saying the 7.62x25mm round is highly impractical, as it is not. Although yes there are only 2 different platforms (handguns) available for the cartridge, the ballistics are actually pretty good. the standard military surplus round is a 86grain fmj bullet going about 1600fps, well welcome to reed's ammunition and research, they make a number of custom loads in this caliber and i bought a 50rd box of 100gr hornady xtp rounds for a very good price. these heavier bullets are going 1500fps! when i shot a few at the range these things SCREAM! every shot the person in the lane next to me would look over and wonder what the hell i was shooting. as to over penetration, yes these 100gr xtp's would probably over penetrate as they are fairly heavy, but if you had proper designed hollow points and a light weight going fairly fast, say a 60gr going 2100fps, you would come into the theory of hydrostatic shock (isntantaneous death from a high-velocity bullet) and the lighter weight projectile would have a less likely chance of over penetrating. Also the cartridge has a very flat trajectory, and with military surplus rounds i could easily explode water bottles at 30yds. 7.62x25mm should be more popular than it is

Sounds interesting. Maybe I'll look at one for possibly using as a cheap woods carry gun I wouldn't mind getting scuffed up, and to double for self-defense while staying at rural locations.

Darkangel1846
07-25-2012, 08:09
Heck if glock made a 762X25 I'd buy it.

FFR Spyder GT
07-28-2012, 10:03
The ballistics look good on this caliber. So why are none of the major gun manufactures making a gun in this caliber?
Thanks

Would be wicked out of a full auto at close range. Low recoil and high rate of fire.

.

I have fired 1,000's of rounds though a Czech CZ-24 SMG and the SMG ammo is a lot HOTTER than the pistol ammo.

Yep, the 7.62x25 is a neat round!

Oh, BTW...... The 7.62x25 has the same OAL as a 9mmx19 so it will fitt in any pistol that fires 9mmx19.

Spyder

RottnJP
07-28-2012, 10:22
I have fired 1,000's of rounds though a Czech CZ-24 SMG and the SMG ammo is a lot HOTTER than the pistol ammo.

Yep, the 7.62x25 is a neat round!

Oh, BTW...... The 7.62x25 has the same OAL as a 9mmx19 so it will fitt in any pistol that fires 9mmx19.

Spyder

Where are you getting your data from?

I see:
9x19 OAL = 29.69 mm (1.169 in)
and
7.62x25 OAL = 34.0 mm (1.34 in)

Meanwhile
.45ACP OAL = 1.275 in (32.4 mm)
and
32.00 mm (1.260 in)

So, the larger frame size glock needed to support the .45 and 10mm is still too small....

And that answers your question.

Meanwhile, 9x25 Dillon *does* use the .45ACP frame size.... Problem solved!

If you like the 7.62x25's ballistics, get a 9x25 Dillon and do even better!

(That is, you can have larger, heavier bullets that are superior from an SD standpoint)

FFR Spyder GT
07-28-2012, 13:14
Where are you getting your data from?

I see:
9x19 OAL = 29.69 mm (1.169 in)
and
7.62x25 OAL = 34.0 mm (1.34 in)

Meanwhile
.45ACP OAL = 1.275 in (32.4 mm)
and
32.00 mm (1.260 in)

So, the larger frame size glock needed to support the .45 and 10mm is still too small....

And that answers your question.

Meanwhile, 9x25 Dillon *does* use the .45ACP frame size.... Problem solved!

If you like the 7.62x25's ballistics, get a 9x25 Dillon and do even better!

(That is, you can have larger, heavier bullets that are superior from an SD standpoint)

Ooops! My bad! For some reason I thought it had the same OAL as a 9mnx19. Yep, it's too long for a 9mmx19 handgun.

I have a friend that has an old Czech CZ( or VZ ) -24 and I can shoot it as long as I buy the ammo. Ammo Guy at local gun show use to have the SMG ammo for something like $2.00/25rds and I'ld buy $40.00 worth and pay him a visit. I would shoot half and he would rathole the other half.

Kaybe
07-28-2012, 13:44
I would buy a Glock in 7.62x25. Wolf ammo used to make a hollow point in that caliber, J and G sales had it at one time. This is the " higher velocity vs. heavier bullet " debate. The only thing about the Tok pistol is the grips are too wide. Because of the way they are put on, hard to find slim replacements. A device from Sportsmans Guide will let you put a hollow point in a Tok round, about 25 bucks. With the right bullet, no problem with CCW if that is all you have. But train to chamber that first round. Too risky for me carrying it at the half cock notch. I think J and G Sales or Centerfire Systems had a Tok conversion kit for a 1911 that was chambered for .38 super. That frame is big enough, front to back, for the long Tok round to be used. Haven't seen for some time. Winchester and S & B make new brass ammo for the 7.62x25, but it is not cheap.

VinnieD
07-28-2012, 14:43
It looks like n excellent round for penetration, and I'll probably be picking up a tokarev myself soon. Probably better in FMJ for that purpose. It's a backup for soviet soldiers, not a home defense gun. It's going to zip through the badguy and every thing behind him. Of course as always being sure of what's beyond the target is YOUR job, not the bullet's. Let the round play to its strengths.

Berto
07-28-2012, 14:49
Local gunshop has several of the Tokarev M-57's for sale. Look like they are well made... and that little 7.62 appears to be one hot round. Been thinking of trying it out on paper... and steel plates!



They shoot very well.
This is a Yugoslav M57

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7453/everything186.jpg