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glock21xxx
02-08-2012, 17:47
Gents

If you will, please steer me in the right direction....

Looking for a good multi-gun optic that will take a decent amount of abuse. Currently, I run two setups for multi-gun.......irons for less than 100 yards. Some kind of optic (previously an Eotech 511) for greater than 100 yards....

I am looking at the Millet DMS 1-4x or the Burris Tac30. To me, they both look like the same reticle? Same eye relief? Etc....

Anyone have any experience with either?

Also, if you are going to respond with "just buy a Trijicon TR24, Nightforce, etc" it's not entirely in the budget to run a 500-1000 dollar optic currently. Next year I plan to invest in a bigger budget optic (1-4 or greater) if this test tickles my fancy :rofl:

Any help would be greatly appreciated....

Thanks in advance!

jwhite75
02-08-2012, 17:50
http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/red_dots

I like these they can be had on Ebay cheaper though.

glock21xxx
02-08-2012, 18:01
I did consider the vortex - but even their lowest priced 1-4x is nearly 500 and that doesn't count the mount. I have heard a lot of good things about that. Also, I am looking for at least 1-4x magnification

I guess I should throw the Nikon m223 in there......

Ruggles
02-08-2012, 18:23
I did consider the vortex - but even their lowest priced 1-4x is nearly 500 and that doesn't count the mount. I have heard a lot of good things about that. Also, I am looking for at least 1-4x magnification

I guess I should throw the Nikon m223 in there......

I have the Nikon M223 1x4 with the "Point Blank" reticle mount in the Nikon M223 mount on a 16" AR. Work great :) Good eye relief and nice clear glass. I think it was $280 for he scope and $99 for the mount so $380 all told.

glock21xxx
02-08-2012, 19:01
I have the Nikon M223 1x4 with the "Point Blank" reticle mount in the Nikon M223 mount on a 16" AR. Work great :) Good eye relief and nice clear glass. I think it was $280 for he scope and $99 for the mount so $380 all told.

You do any multi-gun or 3 gun? If so, how does it work in that role? Do you run a switchview on it? IF so, which brand?

Thanks!

Cole125
02-08-2012, 19:18
Take a good hard look at the Burris Tac 30. Outstanding scope for the money, I have one on my Mini 14 and its great. If you have any specific questions about the scope feel free to ask.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm245/jcole_08/newpics001.jpg

txgunguy
02-08-2012, 19:20
If you look hard, you can find an eotech 512 for around 360. www.sportoptics.com has really low eotech prices.

I also have a primary arms m4 clone and it has been great. Holds 0 very well.

If you want something magnified, I can't help you there.

JimBianchi
02-08-2012, 19:48
I did consider the vortex - but even their lowest priced 1-4x is nearly 500 and that doesn't count the mount. I have heard a lot of good things about that. Also, I am looking for at least 1-4x magnification

I guess I should throw the Nikon m223 in there......


I just bought two of the Vortex Crossfire 1.5x4x32 (http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/vortex.pl?page=vortexcrossfire1-4x32) (discontinued model) for $55 each, and free shipping on $99 and over.

They are on closeout in a few places online.

If they suck on my M4 clone, I will stick them one on of my 10/22 and one of one of my many (too many!) airguns.

The lifetime guarantee is nice!

Ruggles
02-08-2012, 20:06
You do any multi-gun or 3 gun? If so, how does it work in that role? Do you run a switchview on it? IF so, which brand?

Thanks!

No I don't with work and kids no time yet :(

I would like to someday, when the kids get older I think. :wavey:

This was brought up on these boards the other day and might be a good choice as well;

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE800702&src=tpSlrHm

Minnow
02-08-2012, 20:35
Don't own one yet, but:

I'd pick the Burris MTAC over the Tac 30 because of the 10 intensity digital rotary dimmer switch with off positions between each intensity setting. The MTAC also has a separated power ring and eyepiece to accommodate flip-up lens cover. It cost an extra bill over the Tac 30, but I believe it's worth it.

Fwdftw
02-08-2012, 21:02
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_14X_24_Illuminated_Scope_p/pa%201-4x.htm

Ferdinandd
02-08-2012, 21:11
Cole - I've been pondering this same question recently. Where was your scope manufactered? I noticed that some other recent Burris scope production is from communist China. I can't go that route. Hopefully the Tac models are made in Taiwan or another non-communist country.

Ferdinandd
02-08-2012, 21:12
By the way, that's an awesome rifle. Oh how I miss my Mini-14's...

M1A Shooter
02-08-2012, 23:47
i run a millett dms in a burris pepr mount currently. i dont run any 3 gun competitions but train quite a bit with some military buddies and run drills from my own combat experience. the millett has been well used but not really abused. i dont throw it down on the optic to test but i have banged it around on gear while running and low crawling etc...

i find that i can run it out to about 50 yards or so with both eyes open as long as teh reticle is illuminated. have to close an eye to concentrate if its too dim. i keep mine on 4x and with the reticle illuminated i can run close cqb and reflexsive fire drills with it. also make clean hits at 400 yards as well, my max range locally.

i too have been looking to upgrade in perceived quality but it has done great for me so far. the dot in a donut reticle is pretty fast as well.

Cole125
02-09-2012, 18:17
Cole - I've been pondering this same question recently. Where was your scope manufactered? I noticed that some other recent Burris scope production is from communist China. I can't go that route. Hopefully the Tac models are made in Taiwan or another non-communist country.

The markings on my Burris Tac 30 say it is made in the Philippines. Its quality glass for the money, no question.

Mayhem like Me
02-09-2012, 19:17
Millett DMS great little scope.

Matthew Courtney
02-09-2012, 19:59
Both the Millet DMS 1-4x and the Burris Tac 30 are heavy at 18 and 17 ounces, respectively. The Leupold 1-4x Mark AR weighs only 9.5 ounces and runs $279.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-1-4x20-mark-ar-duplex-riflescope-67170.html

The Leupold is a half pound lighter than everything else mentioned so far.

1time
02-09-2012, 20:00
I have a Millet and it works fine for the three gun matches I have attended. Your eye position has to be pretty perfect though.

If I had to do over again I would go with the MTAC or Tac 30 in that order. These two are pretty similar but the controls are better on the MTAC. Either is an improvement over the Millet by a good margin. I think the MTAC or Tac30 are the best scopes on the market for three gun until you hit the $800 to $1000 mark. The Vortex 1-4 have better glass than the MTAC/Tac 30 but the reticule is too busy for run and gun type shooting.

Bimmer1
02-09-2012, 20:20
What about the new Nikon P-223? It will be available soon.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Nikon-P-223-Riflescope/1330873.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dnikon%2Bp-223%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=nikon+p-223&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

HAIL CAESAR
02-09-2012, 20:56
For a true 3 gun AR you can not beat the MTAC by Burris. Even if you spent a lot more than the Burris....you wouldn't get that much better.

Ruggles
02-09-2012, 22:01
What about the new Nikon P-223? It will be available soon.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Nikon-P-223-Riflescope/1330873.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dnikon%2Bp-223%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=nikon+p-223&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products



They are available now and are nice scopes IMO. I have the 1x4 and it serves it purpose extremely well. :) The Burris MTAC looks nice as well.

Novocaine
02-09-2012, 22:48
I have Leatherwood CMR and Millet DMR and much prefer Leatherwood. They are up in price (I got mine for about $250 year and a half ago or so) but I think it's about as good as it gets even at the current price point.

Cole125
02-10-2012, 18:40
For a true 3 gun AR you can not beat the MTAC by Burris. Even if you spent a lot more than the Burris....you wouldn't get that much better.

What he said. I have found Burris scopes to be a great value, better than anything else I know of in their price range.

The AR-332 scope by Burris is another good example of value, its $300, yet has all the features of a ACOG, glass is as clear, reticle is as clear, and the damn thing is probably just as durable. Its just battery powered instead.

GSSF17
02-10-2012, 18:53
As far as red dots, I have had excellent luck with Vortex and Primary Arms. The PA is on a sig 522, but the vortex strikefire is on an AR-15. Hundreds of rounds downrange, with solid zero. I have heard excellent things about the Millet DMS as well, but never owned one.

Alaskapopo
02-10-2012, 21:18
Both the Millet DMS 1-4x and the Burris Tac 30 are heavy at 18 and 17 ounces, respectively. The Leupold 1-4x Mark AR weighs only 9.5 ounces and runs $279.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-1-4x20-mark-ar-duplex-riflescope-67170.html

The Leupold is a half pound lighter than everything else mentioned so far.

The Leupold does not have illumination and the illumination on the Millet sucks the Tac 30 has very good illumination that makes shooting at close range on 1x faster for most people. Also that 9.5 ounces for a 1-4 scope makes me think that is a typo. Not likely to be the actual weight.
Pat

justinsaneok
02-10-2012, 21:45
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-2-5-10x44-riflescope-with-ebr-1-mrad-reticle/reticle
Two things about this scope that you need to pay more to get. Side parallax adjustment and first focal plane. As a three gun scope you can just hold over but this scope is all mill with .10 m turret adjustments and has a zero stop. With a FFP scope you can range accurately at any magnification because the mil dots will grow with the magnification. But it's not worth a damn in a scope that only goes to 10x Just range on 10x.
OTOH
Well For three gun you just cant beat this http://www.opticsplanet.net/eotech-mpo-ii-exps3-4-holosight-with-g23-3x-magnifier.html IF it's going on a AR 15 that is. I would only get a scope for the longer range stuff or on a ...........308 AR

justinsaneok
02-10-2012, 21:50
I know its 69 bucks over your price range. But it doesn't get EASIER or FASTER. After all it is a 3 gun gun right? EOTECH stomps irons for speed but magnified with a Magnifier it beats a 1 to 4 scope 9 out of 10 times. Its like your not aiming but still getting hits.

Alaskapopo
02-10-2012, 22:28
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-2-5-10x44-riflescope-with-ebr-1-mrad-reticle/reticle
Two things about this scope that you need to pay more to get. Side parallax adjustment and first focal plane. As a three gun scope you can just hold over but this scope is all mill with .10 m turret adjustments and has a zero stop. With a FFP scope you can range accurately at any magnification because the mil dots will grow with the magnification. But it's not worth a damn in a scope that only goes to 10x Just range on 10x.
OTOH
Well For three gun you just cant beat this http://www.opticsplanet.net/eotech-mpo-ii-exps3-4-holosight-with-g23-3x-magnifier.html IF it's going on a AR 15 that is. I would only get a scope for the longer range stuff or on a ...........308 AR

Sorry but no, while that is a fine precision rifle scope it lacks as a three gun scope. It sounds like you have not shot three gun. 99% of competators in Tac Optics and Open are using 1-4,5,6x scopes. Low power variables rule. Red dots ith magnifiers are not well suited to the game. They can work but they have some limitations on the long range stages. Most red dots don't have holding points (BDC reticle) for longer shots nor are they easy to dial in before the stage. The Eotech has a model with some hold over points but its the only one that does and its still not ideal. The magnifier itself has limited eye relief and field of view compared to a good scope. You also are stuck with 1x and 3 or 4x nothing in between. There is a reason the pros are not using red dots with magnifiers. For a good entry level scope the Burris MTAC or TAC30 is hard to beat at their price point. I run a Swarovski Z6i 1-6 scope that is currently one of the most popular now with the big guys but it is expensive at over 2k.

Also for three gun you don't need 10x or a FFP reticle. A FFP reticle is not bad but its not needed. Its a matter of preferance rather to go with a FFP or SFP scope in three gun. Now in precision rifle competitions FFP rules but you have much greater magnifications there. 10X is just going to slow you down on 99.9 percent of the stages you are likely to see. 6x is a good top end. 1x at the bottom is far more important because most of your shots are close and fast. you also don't need or want a side paralax adjustment for three gun.

What you do need or is nice to have in a three gun scope.
1. True 1x on the bottom end. There are a lot more close and fast shots vs long range ones.
2. Daylight visible illumination. This makes shooting faster because you can shoot the scope like you would a red dot and it stands out against more backgrounds and targets.
3. Bullet drop reticle with hold marks that are easy to use for targets 300 yards and beyond. Most matches don't have shots past 400 yards, but some do go out to 600.
Some good scope choices are.
300 to 500 range
1. Burris TAC 30 and MTAC
2. Vortex 1-4
500 to 1000
1. Trijicon TR24
2. Meopta.
3. Burris XTR
1000 to 1500
1. Nightforce NSX 1-4 (lacks daylight illumination)
2. IOR Scopes 1-4
1500 -infinity
1. Swarovski Z6i 1-6x
2. S&B 1-4 short Dot

There are other choices out there as well that I am sure I missed.

glock21xxx
02-11-2012, 09:44
Sorry but no, while that is a fine precision rifle scope it lacks as a three gun scope. It sounds like you have not shot three gun. 99% of competators in Tac Optics and Open are using 1-4,5,6x scopes. Low power variables rule. Red dots ith magnifiers are not well suited to the game. They can work but they have some limitations on the long range stages. Most red dots don't have holding points (BDC reticle) for longer shots nor are they easy to dial in before the stage. The Eotech has a model with some hold over points but its the only one that does and its still not ideal. The magnifier itself has limited eye relief and field of view compared to a good scope. You also are stuck with 1x and 3 or 4x nothing in between. There is a reason the pros are not using red dots with magnifiers. For a good entry level scope the Burris MTAC or TAC30 is hard to beat at their price point. I run a Swarovski Z6i 1-6 scope that is currently one of the most popular now with the big guys but it is expensive at over 2k.

Also for three gun you don't need 10x or a FFP reticle. A FFP reticle is not bad but its not needed. Its a matter of preferance rather to go with a FFP or SFP scope in three gun. Now in precision rifle competitions FFP rules but you have much greater magnifications there. 10X is just going to slow you down on 99.9 percent of the stages you are likely to see. 6x is a good top end. 1x at the bottom is far more important because most of your shots are close and fast. you also don't need or want a side paralax adjustment for three gun.

What you do need or is nice to have in a three gun scope.
1. True 1x on the bottom end. There are a lot more close and fast shots vs long range ones.
2. Daylight visible illumination. This makes shooting faster because you can shoot the scope like you would a red dot and it stands out against more backgrounds and targets.
3. Bullet drop reticle with hold marks that are easy to use for targets 300 yards and beyond. Most matches don't have shots past 400 yards, but some do go out to 600.
Some good scope choices are.
300 to 500 range
1. Burris TAC 30 and MTAC
2. Vortex 1-4
500 to 1000
1. Trijicon TR24
2. Meopta.
3. Burris XTR
1000 to 1500
1. Nightforce NSX 1-4 (lacks daylight illumination)
2. IOR Scopes 1-4
1500 -infinity
1. Swarovski Z6i 1-6x
2. S&B 1-4 short Dot

There are other choices out there as well that I am sure I missed.

Very comprehensive list - looks like I should max out my budget....much appreciated sir. I will, of course, post pics when I buy something.

EDIT --- I guess my personal thoughts about it being a comprehensive list was not true - I guess I have to retract my statement?

BBJones
02-11-2012, 10:04
Some good scope choices are.
500 to 1000
1. Trijicon TR24
2. Meopta.
3. Burris XTR

There are other choices out there as well that I am sure I missed.

I know your list was not comprehensive, but thought I would mention SWFA's 1-4 as a great optic in this price point. Their 1-6 is also coming out soon and supposed to be under $1000.

Alaskapopo
02-11-2012, 14:04
I know your list was not comprehensive, but thought I would mention SWFA's 1-4 as a great optic in this price point. Their 1-6 is also coming out soon and supposed to be under $1000.

True sorry about that. Bushnell also has a 1-6.5 coming out. Leupold has a new 1-6 coming out that is supposed to be very good. Another bargain scope is the Weaver 1-3.
Pat

Boxerglocker
02-11-2012, 16:53
Sorry guys not to derail this thread.... but in the quest to find a 3-gun / Tac rifle optic I went with a Vortex Viper PST 1-4 and Bobro extended mount, found a great deal on a LNIB set-up used and so far have been happy with the set up until.... I bought a Vortex switchview and realized upon trying to install it that the Bobro does not have enough clearance, unless I pull the scope all the way back almost touching the rear ring. I got it to work but am not happy that the drift adjustment turret is obscured by the rear ring.

Can anyone recommend another extended mount that will work with the Viper with more clearance than the Bobro? I was looking at either a Larue or ADM Recon. I definitely want a QD set-up as I'll be switching to a backup rifle from time to time. Thanks.

Alaskapopo
02-11-2012, 17:01
Sorry guys not to derail this thread.... but in the quest to find a 3-gun / Tac rifle optic I went with a Vortex Viper PST 1-4 and Bobro extended mount, found a great deal on a LNIB set-up used and so far have been happy with the set up until.... I bought a Vortex switchview and realized upon trying to install it that the Bobro does not have enough clearance, unless I pull the scope all the way back almost touching the rear ring. I got it to work but am not happy that the drift adjustment turret is obscured by the rear ring.

Can anyone recommend another extended mount that will work with the Viper with more clearance than the Bobro? I was looking at either a Larue or ADM Recon. I definitely want a QD set-up as I'll be switching to a backup rifle from time to time. Thanks.

When which mount to get is the question Larue is the Answer.
Pat

Boxerglocker
02-11-2012, 17:07
When which mount to get is the question Larue is the Answer.
Pat

I'm thinking that myself Pat... the LaRue Tactical SPR / M4 Scope Mount QD LT104 from what I read on various searches appears to be the one that will solve my issue.

Alaskapopo
02-11-2012, 17:13
I really like Larue and run the on my guns.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/ThreegunRogueHunter.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/NoveskewithTR24.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/LarueStealth.jpg

The only exception being the Spikes 22 but I got that Aimpoint used with the ADM mount thrown in.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/Spikes22longrifle.jpg

Boxerglocker
02-11-2012, 17:28
Nice collection Pat.... though I noticed your scopes are all inline doing what my current set-up Viper/Bobro is like with the scopes pulled back and center post close to the rear ring, drift turret obscured. Any particular reason why yours are set-up that way? Looks like you have the clearance :dunno:

Alaskapopo
02-11-2012, 19:50
Nice collection Pat.... though I noticed your scopes are all inline doing what my current set-up Viper/Bobro is like with the scopes pulled back and center post close to the rear ring, drift turret obscured. Any particular reason why yours are set-up that way? Looks like you have the clearance :dunno:

My scopes are set up to allow for a rear buis and for eye relief. Never had an issue with them this way.
Pat

MarkCO
02-11-2012, 20:21
I've been running the Burris 1-4 MTAC for quite a while now and while there are some decent scopes on the market, and more coming out, I still don't think you can beat it until you get to the Swaro. Whether it is parallax, weight, durability, reticle controls or illumination, it is one of the best set-ups for 3gun.

I have a 4.5-14 MTAC on the way for one of my long range rifles and an 1.5-6 for an Open AR build.

Mine are all in JP mounts, but the LaRue is also excellent.

Alaskapopo
02-11-2012, 23:35
I know its 69 bucks over your price range. But it doesn't get EASIER or FASTER. After all it is a 3 gun gun right? EOTECH stomps irons for speed but magnified with a Magnifier it beats a 1 to 4 scope 9 out of 10 times. Its like your not aiming but still getting hits.

When it comes to speed Kurt Miller will stomp pretty much anyone using Irons against any red dot sight you want to use. In my own testing I have found at less than 25 yards Irons are every so slightly faster than red dots. Past 25 yards the red dots get faster for me and its noticable at 50 and 100 yards. The main advantage of red dots over irons or a conventional scope is shooting from akward non conventional positions. They also are far better than irons in low light situations. But that is not a three gun concern. The positional shooting however is from time to time.
Pat

BBJones
02-12-2012, 14:09
Sorry guys not to derail this thread.... but in the quest to find a 3-gun / Tac rifle optic I went with a Vortex Viper PST 1-4 and Bobro extended mount, found a great deal on a LNIB set-up used and so far have been happy with the set up until.... I bought a Vortex switchview and realized upon trying to install it that the Bobro does not have enough clearance, unless I pull the scope all the way back almost touching the rear ring. I got it to work but am not happy that the drift adjustment turret is obscured by the rear ring.

Can anyone recommend another extended mount that will work with the Viper with more clearance than the Bobro? I was looking at either a Larue or ADM Recon. I definitely want a QD set-up as I'll be switching to a backup rifle from time to time. Thanks.

Adm recon works with the pst and switchview. I had that exact setup.

HAIL CAESAR
02-12-2012, 14:35
I have been running a Burris XTR for a bit and love the heck out of it. If I needed a better shorter range reticle I would go to the Burris Mtac.