Detroit citizens no longer rely on LE as self-defense killings skyrockete [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RussP
02-10-2012, 15:32
911 IS A JOKE - Detroit citizens no longer rely on police as self-defense killings skyrocket (http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/02/05/020512-news-detroit-vigilantes-1-5/)

Article starts out with a 73-year old, long time Detroit resident who got tired of the young thugs terrorizing her neighborhood so she applied for her permit to carry. “I don’t intend to be one of their victims,” said Brown, who has lived in Detroit since the late 1950s. “I’m planning on taking one out.” And Mrs. RussP doesn't think she means "taking them out to dinner."

The local rate of self-defense killings stands 2,200% above the national average.

:cool:

Deye76
02-10-2012, 16:32
Where do you get your info? 2,200% above the NA doesn't sound right. I just retired/moved from that area, worked in Detroit for the last 40 yrs, yea the MC has it's share of SD shootings, but that number would put it at more than a couple every day.
doesn't happen.

4TS&W
02-10-2012, 16:42
Where is Robocop? :)

Dragoon44
02-10-2012, 16:56
apparently detroiters are either very very good shots or are just very thorough since it says killings rather than just shootings.

:supergrin:

Dragoon44
02-10-2012, 16:59
Where is Robocop? :)

His parts got outsourced to china so they can't keep up maintence on him.

:wavey:

Cream Soda Kid
02-10-2012, 16:59
apparently detroiters are either very very good shots or are just very thorough since it says killings rather than just shootings.

:supergrin:


Very astute.

Fiery Red XIII
02-10-2012, 16:59
did yall ever see the vid of the medics whose rig broke down new years eve? And you can hear all the gunfire in the background? I'll see if I can find it.

Red

xmanhockey7
02-10-2012, 17:27
Detroit Citizens No Longer Rely on Police as Self-Defense Killings Skyrocket - YouTube

Detroit is just one of those cities. There's a guy on another forum I'm on that carries 2 FN 45s and wears a bullet proof vest everywhere he goes.

glock_19guy1983
02-10-2012, 17:33
Detroit is just one of those cities. There's a guy on another forum I'm on that carries 2 FN 45s and wears a bullet proof vest everywhere he goes.

I cant understand why someone would continue to live in an area if they felt that threatened. As an adult I can pick and choose where i live and work and no job is worth being that scared.

RussP
02-10-2012, 17:36
Where do you get your info? 2,200% above the NA doesn't sound right. I just retired/moved from that area, worked in Detroit for the last 40 yrs, yea the MC has it's share of SD shootings, but that number would put it at more than a couple every day.
doesn't happen.Quoted from the article, 2nd paragraph.

steve581581
02-10-2012, 18:22
I live about 10 miles from the Detroit border and I assure everyone that its a war zone. For the most part the Detroit locals don't venture outside of the city lines with the law abiding working citizens being an exception.

Detroit needs to be completely bulldozed... where else can you get a loitering and prostitution ticket for sitting on your porch or driving home from work. (I never got one, it was in the news recently)

xmanhockey7
02-10-2012, 18:38
I cant understand why someone would continue to live in an area if they felt that threatened. As an adult I can pick and choose where i live and work and no job is worth being that scared.

People who have lived there their whole lives won't move. They love Detroit and don't let the thugs decide where they live. This guy would carry the 2 FNs and bullet proof vest whether in Detroit or not. That is his choice and he is a very respected gun carrier.

Getting up and moving isn't an option for everyone. And like I said the people from Detroit love it and don't let the thugs rule their lives.

gommer
02-10-2012, 19:01
I cant understand why someone would continue to live in an area if they felt that threatened. As an adult I can pick and choose where i live and work and no job is worth being that scared.

Because if you run from it, eventually it may catch up to you and there may not be somewhere to run to next time.

Could be he has family there he wants to stay with/near.

Could be he has a great job there... doesn't have credentials to get a similar job in another area.

Could just be that he loves the land and be damned if a bunch of drug pushing punks will take it.

Who knows. Does a man really need a justifiable reason to stand his ground?

xmanhockey7
02-10-2012, 19:26
Because if you run from it, eventually it may catch up to you and there may not be somewhere to run to next time.

Could be he has family there he wants to stay with/near.

Could be he has a great job there... doesn't have credentials to get a similar job in another area.

Could just be that he loves the land and be damned if a bunch of drug pushing punks will take it.

Who knows. Does a man really need a justifiable reason to stand his ground?

+1 Well put

unit1069
02-11-2012, 11:19
Detroit PD didn't respond for 90 minutes when the property owner held the two perps at gunpoint?

I know a guy in Atlanta whose apartment was cleaned out by burglars in broad daylight. A neighbor lady saw what was happening the minute the perps broke in and called 9-11. The Atlanta PD didn't respond at all --- not even a drive-by.

Should I tell you about the guy I know in East St. Louis?

Gun sales are skyrocketing and now even diehard liberals are finding it fashionable to own firearms. It's difficult for some previously misguided folks to admit to having been wrong, but today when we're all hearing and reading political rationales designed to excuse the perpetrators of crime law-abiding citizens of all political persuasions are relying on themselves for self-defense.

HarleyGuy
02-11-2012, 12:29
A vast majority of the shootings in Detroit are drug related, gang related, and or between friends, associates, or family members.

If you're going to downtown Detroit for some type of event, you're just a safe as you are in any other major city in this country.

steveksux
02-11-2012, 12:52
A vast majority of the shootings in Detroit are drug related, gang related, and or between friends, associates, or family members.I read a story once that stated exactly that. If you filter out those shootings, the random shootings or those due to robberies were only in double digits.

If you're going to downtown Detroit for some type of event, you're just a safe as you are in any other major city in this country.Used to be a bunch of us that skated throughout the city. Never had any issues. People tend to flee the city after 5pm, so we had the streets pretty much to ourselves if we stayed away from the really major routes. Grand River? No problem. Woodward, mostly ok. Gratiot? No problem. Jefferson was a lot of traffic, tried to avoid that where possible.

Randy

Texas357
02-11-2012, 22:56
apparently detroiters are either very very good shots or are just very thorough since it says killings rather than just shootings.

:supergrin:

Maybe their hospitals just really, really suck at trauma care.










No, even that would only account for a 400% increase in self-defense killings.

jeffyjeff
02-12-2012, 00:02
i accidentally drove through detroit on my way home from canada once, i missed the exit to go west across the northern part of the state and ended up going south to detroit.

coming from canada, i wasn't armed and i'll tell you i didn't stop within 150 miles of detroit in either direction.

cadillacguns
02-12-2012, 04:11
Chuck Norris is so tough he takes his summer vacations in Detroit.

liberty addict
02-12-2012, 09:32
Where do you get your info? 2,200% above the NA doesn't sound right. I just retired/moved from that area, worked in Detroit for the last 40 yrs, yea the MC has it's share of SD shootings, but that number would put it at more than a couple every day.
doesn't happen.

Just like "100% more" means twice as much, 2,200% above NA means 23 times the national average. I don't say this is correct, I'm just restating what the article says.

Deye76
02-12-2012, 11:08
Quoted from the article, 2nd paragraph.
An ipad article? :rofl: real credible journalism there.

steveksux
02-12-2012, 18:16
Maybe their hospitals just really, really suck at trauma care.










No, even that would only account for a 400% increase in self-defense killings.Know you're joking, but Detroit Receiving is one of the best trauma centers. And St. John recently got certified and is taking some of the overflow.

It may just be from all the practice, but they're good.. :supergrin:

Now, getting EMS to arrive on scene to take you there, THAT's a problem.

Randy

RussP
02-12-2012, 18:37
An ipad article? :rofl: real credible journalism there.Hey, don't like the source? Find numbers to refute theirs.

HarleyGuy
02-12-2012, 18:45
i accidentally drove through detroit on my way home from canada once, i missed the exit to go west across the northern part of the state and ended up going south to detroit.

coming from canada, i wasn't armed and i'll tell you i didn't stop within 150 miles of detroit in either direction.

:rofl:

Fighting Irish
02-13-2012, 00:44
Good for them. If self-defense shootings went up elsewhere, bg's might think twice. Armed society is a tame society...

NEOH212
02-13-2012, 01:38
His parts got outsourced to china so they can't keep up maintence on him.

:wavey:

:rofl:

NEOH212
02-13-2012, 01:38
Good for them. If self-defense shootings went up elsewhere, bg's might think twice. Armed society is a tame society...

This.

:thumbsup:

HoldHard
02-13-2012, 09:28
Maybe their hospitals just really, really suck at trauma care.Actually Detroit has two of the nine Level 1 Trauma Centers (http://www.facs.org/trauma/verified.html) in Michigan, Detroit Receiving and Henry Ford. It's the volume that overwhelms them. My daughter works in the ER at Detroit Receiving. She said they treated 50+ gun shot wounds during a recent 12 hour shift.


No, even that would only account for a 400% increase in self-defense killings.It's the low numbers. I believe that last year it was 19 and this year it's 34. Somehow that doesn't add up to 400% but I'm not a math guru...

An ipad article? :rofl: real credible journalism there.

Hey, don't like the source? Find numbers to refute theirs.

Deye76, I'll go one better. Come to Detroit. Bring your concealed weapon permit, your own weapon(s) and ammo (bullet resistant vest is optional but recommended) and we'll go downtown. Nothing like first hand experience to clarify what you read in an "ipad article".

HH

Deye76
02-13-2012, 11:12
Deye76, I'll go one better. Come to Detroit. Bring your concealed weapon permit, your own weapon(s) and ammo (bullet resistant vest is optional but recommended) and we'll go downtown. Nothing like first hand experience to clarify what you read in an "ipad article".

HH[/quote]
You should read the whole thread before running yer mouth. If you did you'd realize I just left Mi. after working and riding my mc in the "belly of the beast" for the last 40 years. I'll take you places that would have you crying for your mommy, but after a few hours you'd realize that 2,200% over the national average just isn't so. Yea it's rough in Detroit, I grew up on the east side, but no worse than NYC, Philly, Baltimore and dozens of other large cities.
Oh and downtown is pretty safe, but if you knew what your talking about, I wouldn't have to type this.

Deye76
02-13-2012, 11:14
Hey, don't like the source? Find numbers to refute theirs.
My first hand experience refutes those numbers. You ever been to Detroit? Lately?

3000fps
02-13-2012, 11:17
Just listen to the live police scanner,

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?action=wp&feedId=803

Listen to it for 30 minutes, this is LIVE

HoldHard
02-13-2012, 12:05
You should read the whole thread before running yer mouth. If you did you'd realize I just left Mi. after working and riding my mc in the "belly of the beast" for the last 40 years. Yea it's rough in Detroit, I grew up on the east side, but no worse than NYC, Philly, Baltimore and dozens of other large cities.
Oh and downtown is pretty safe, but if you knew what your talking about, I wouldn't have to type this.So let me make sure I've got this straight.

You left Detroit.

Have I got that correct?

Congratulations on making it for only 40 years.... some of us are older and are still here. Let me ask, when did you leave? In the last two weeks, downtown Detroit has turned into a war zone. It's open season on inter-gang warfare. None of it was being reported until today when 4 people were murdered and 5 wounded in eight hours. Link (http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20120213/NEWS/302130053/Detroit-shootings-3-incidents-kill-5-hurt-4?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE)

Click on the live radio link in the previous post and maybe you'll pickup on what is happening in the streets of Detroit.

HH

Deye76
02-13-2012, 12:18
I just left, 2 days before Christmas. Retired, came for better weather. Maybe not as old as you but definately smarter, for getting out of Mi. :wavey:
So there was 9 shootings, how many in the cities I mentioned?
Detroit has been a "war zone" for years, not just 5 weeks. So have other large cities.
Click on a live link to the other big cities, lots of action, again, Detroit 2,200% above the national average is just BS.

BTW, came to Detroit in 1958, so actually "made it" 54 years.

Deployment Solu
02-13-2012, 12:35
Chuck Norris is so tough he takes his summer vacations in Detroit.

If Chuck was REALLY tough, he'd take his WINTER vacations in Detoit!!! LOL!!!:rofl::rofl:

Thx-1138
02-13-2012, 13:29
If Chuck was REALLY tough, he'd take his WINTER vacations in Detoit!!! LOL!!!:rofl::rofl:

He's tough; he's not a masochist.

Reminds me of the decade I spent in Detroit one winter.

cowboy1964
02-13-2012, 14:15
My first hand experience refutes those numbers. You ever been to Detroit? Lately?

Detroit has a murder rate 5 or 6x that of NYC. It is what it is.

Deye76
02-13-2012, 14:41
Detroit has a murder rate 5 or 6x that of NYC. It is what it is.
It's still not 2,200% above the national average.
And I've been in some rough areas in Akron, Toledo, Cinci, and Cleveland. One can get shot anywhere, just ask Gabby Gifford, real nice area from what I've seen.

JuneyBooney
02-13-2012, 14:46
Where is Robocop? :)

I think he is needed up there but hasn't Detroit always been bad? :whistling: I would not mess with "granny". :cool:

Boot Stomper
02-13-2012, 14:54
i accidentally drove through detroit on my way home from canada once, i missed the exit to go west across the northern part of the state and ended up going south to detroit.

coming from canada, i wasn't armed and i'll tell you i didn't stop within 150 miles of detroit in either direction.

Take a drive though East St. Louis, IL sometime. Never been to Detroit, but I can not imagine it could be worse. The Chief of police in East St. Louis was arrest by the feds a month back for stealing video game systems.

Remember no CC in Illinois, only the criminals can carry guns, and they do.

rjflyn
02-13-2012, 21:20
There is no frame of reference for the stats. but generally they compute things based on per 100,000 people. With the falling population of Detroit its not a stretch for numbers to be hight, 2000%, show me the actual data not just some fluff piece. Now having worked ER in the area and seeing my share of trauma, its getting worse. I can say for a fact never get gas after dark, and you couldnt pay me to use an ATM unless there was someone with me to provide cover.

HoldHard
02-14-2012, 07:48
Oh and downtown is pretty safe, but if you knew what your talking about, I wouldn't have to type this.Let's start with some actual, real life numbers. No media hype. Just facts.

On Monday, February 6, 2012 the Detroit Receiving Hospital Emergency Room had 102 gunshot wound patients. Since the EMT's can no longer call time of death (it has to be a medical doctor) all of the dead are brought to the ER before going to the morgue.

Of the 102 patients, 46 were dead on arrival.

This information originated from an employee of that Emergency Room. As she said, "they were on their game today".

And this is just ONE hospital.

Total media blackout on this. You want to know why? So the downtown businesses like Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park, Ford Field, the Fox Theater, Greektown and the Motor City Casino still draw people from the suburbs. See they have to continue to believe “downtown is pretty safe”.

It's a myth. Propaganda to try and keep businesses open and money flowing into a corrupt, violent, gang infested city.

Every venue listed above does not allow concealed carry by law abiding citizens. Only the criminals have guns.

In Detroit, the Three S rule should be adhered to vigorously.

Don’t go to stupid places with stupid people who do stupid things.

HH

Deye76
02-14-2012, 07:59
Well, how about a source for those "real life numbers", and not some opinion from an ipod. And were all those shootings downtown? Highly doubt it, if that number is fact, the majority happen in the neighborhoods, and get transported to those trauma centers that are near downtown that have a reputation for dealing with gunshot wounds. If 46 people were actually shot and killed, in one day, I'd have to believe fat *** Brooks Patterson would be screaming for the National Gaurd. Then run for govenor.
As for total media blackout, how did you find out? Those ipod sources should be all over it. Sorry, not buying what your trying to peddle.

HoldHard
02-14-2012, 08:24
As for total media blackout, how did you find out? My daughter works there. She's a RN. Is first hand knowledge good enough for you? Probably not.

HH

Unistat
02-14-2012, 08:51
Have to go with Hold Hard here. Detroit is worse than many other big cities by both quantity and quality. Even factoring in the proportionate difference in population, Detroit has far more crime and violent crime than, say, Chicago.

Chicago. (http://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/illinois/chicago.html)
Detroit. (http://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/michigan/detroit.html)

Deye76
02-14-2012, 09:43
Holdhard, First hand knowledge is perfectly acceptable. You then as a father, you have a duty to report the 1 day massacre as far up the political "ladder" as possible, and to all media outlets such as The Free Press and News, Macomb Daily, Oakland Observer, Channels 2, 4, & 7 news, so as not to send your daughter, and your fellow man in to that bad of a situation. That time would be better spent, than here. I look forward to reading about your involvement in making the region aware, thus creating a safer place. Best Regards.

Deye76
02-14-2012, 09:50
Have to go with Hold Hard here. Detroit is worse than many other big cities by both quantity and quality. Even factoring in the proportionate difference in population, Detroit has far more crime and violent crime than, say, Chicago.

Chicago. (http://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/illinois/chicago.html)
Detroit. (http://www.cityrating.com/crime-statistics/michigan/detroit.html)

Agree, but for the umpteenth time, 2,200%? Whew.

Jfduece
02-14-2012, 11:19
Some stats for 2010
National violent crime reported = 1,246,248
National violent crime rate = 403 per 100,000
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls)
Detroit violent crime reported = 16,976
Detroit violent crime rate = 1887 per 100,000 people
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-8/10tbl08mi.xls (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-8/10tbl08mi.xls)
This data makes Detroit 4.6 times higher than the national average. Remember this is 2010 data. This is also overall violent crime, not just shootings, and may not include anything on self defense shootings or killings for all I know. However I think a reasonable person may be able to think that there is a correlation between overall violent crime, bad guy shootings, and self defense shootings. (IMHO) Unfortunately I could not find data solely related to self defense killings, if it even out there. It would take some pretty big leaps to get from the data I am citing to the 2200% number in the article. I am not trying to say they made those leaps, I am just trying to show some readily available data that may or may not support the numbers in the article.

So, is the 2200% above national average believable? To me, yes, but it’s a stretch based on the data I found. Keeping in mind several anecdotal facts
· that national crime rates are going down and Detroit seems to be headed in the opposite direction at an alarming rate.
· more Detroit citizens are being armed
· violent crime rates and self defense shootings should correlate (again my opinion, but seems reasonable)

So, I am not trying to say its true, but, it is not so far out of the realm of possibility. Just food for thought.

Deye76, why is this so unbelievable? You state quite clearly that you are going on first had experience. First hand experience is the viewpoint of ONE person. Your experience is very limited compared to that of the 3000 officers on the DPD. This to me will never refute city-wide crime reporting statistics. If you want to refute the 2200% at least try to do some research. The “believe me” line does really work in cases like this. Again, I am not saying 2200% is correct, but tell us why it isn’t along with some supporting facts and figures.

Other major cities violent crime rate for comparison:
New York = 581
Washington DC = 1241
Philly = 1189
Houston = 986
LA = 559

4TS&W
02-14-2012, 11:22
Just listen to the live police scanner,

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?action=wp&feedId=803

Listen to it for 30 minutes, this is LIVE

I listened for two minutes and heard many things, among them an arson in progress.. :shocked:

Deye76
02-14-2012, 14:29
duece, Look, I asked for some credible proof, no one can produce, so I don't have to research to refute until I get some proof. Holdhard reports 46 killings..count 'em, in 1 day. You really think that would go un-noticed? 4.6 times above the national average is believable. If you want to believe 2200% then go ahead, it's just conjecture. Heck by your own admission it's a stretch but you still want to believe. Working in Detroit for the last 40 years, was not spent in an office, but on the streets and in the homes of it's residents. If there was the kind of mayhem being reported here, I and the 2000 fellow employees of mine, out in/on the streets would have noticed. How come you don't show a link to the stats you report for NYC, Philly etc.? Nowhere in the link for Detroit do I see 1887 per 100,000. Where does that number come from? Go to www.nyc.gov (http://www.nyc.gov) and look up crime statistics, total violent crime is 200 more than this time a year ago. Which direction is that going?

Jfduece
02-14-2012, 15:35
duece, Look, I asked for some credible proof, no one can produce, so I don't have to research to refute until I get some proof. Holdhard reports 46 killings..count 'em, in 1 day. You really think that would go un-noticed? 4.6 times above the national average is believable. If you want to believe 2200% then go ahead, it's just conjecture. Heck by your own admission it's a stretch but you still want to believe. Working in Detroit for the last 40 years, was not spent in an office, but on the streets and in the homes of it's residents. If there was the kind of mayhem being reported here, I and the 2000 fellow employees of mine, out in/on the streets would have noticed. How come you don't show a link to the stats you report for NYC, Philly etc.? Nowhere in the link for Detroit do I see 1887 per 100,000. Where does that number come from? Go to www.nyc.gov (http://www.nyc.gov) and look up crime statistics, total violent crime is 200 more than this time a year ago. Which direction is that going?


if you went to one of the links and cruised around the FBI database for 5 minutes you can find the rest of the numbers i quoted. the 1887 per 100,000 is simple math. i'm not even going to do that one for you:faint:

I actually emailed the author of the story to get the data and she linked back to the fbi database in another area that i couldn't find before.

Justifiable Homicides for US for 2010 = 278, that gives a rate of 0.09 per 100,000.

link:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl15.xls


The author did not provide a direct link to detroit data unfortunately. However, with some more simple math we can back out what the number should be. 2200% = (X+0.90)/0.09, and solve for X. This would give us a rate of 1.89 justifiable homicides per 100,000 for detroit. Based on the FBI reported population for 2010 of 899,447. The total number of Justifiable homicides in detroit would be 17.

Well, I guess I can't definitively prove the author is correct but 17 justifiable homicides for one year in a city like Detroit sounds pretty reasonable.

What do you say Deye76? Think there might have been 17 justifiable homicides in 2010? I think you just got swept up by the big number of 2200 without realizing what was behind it. Thats what journalists do. Whats gonna make a bigger impact, 17, or 2200?

Sorry I am doggin on you a little Deye76, but i just think you need to think it through a little more before you get jump to conclusions that have no defense whatsoever. This is the part where if i knew you I would say get over it and lets have a beer!:cheers:

Deye76
02-14-2012, 20:08
Heck I never got under it, so being over it is no big deal. :cool:
If you look at Florida for example, huge increase in JH in 2010, Palm Beach had 6 themselves. So not really sure how those with increases fit in the national average. Most states with the Castle Doctrine have seen spikes in JH's. When it comes to journalists, I have a saying, "figures lie, and liars figure." Would really like to see the number of JH's in all US cities with between 500k and a million residents.
With 311,800,000 US citizens, 278 is what 1 JH for every1,121,582 residents. a rate of 11.215 per 100,000. :wavey:

Jfduece
02-14-2012, 21:51
you are right on your "figures lie, and liars figure". that was kinda my point. People can twist statistics to make whatever point they want.

unfortunately your math is still a little off. you are dividing the wrong way. try again with the JH number in the numerator and the # of citizens in the denominator. When you state an "X per Y" rate, the X goes in the numerator and Y goes in the denominator to make the appropriate calculation. and think it through a little too, does 11 JH's per 100,000 people really make sense? Hmmmm.....

sorry, I probably look like an ass now but I just can't let such a simple math mistake go unchecked.

Deye76
02-15-2012, 07:16
Your gonna have to do the voodoo math, cause my calculator comes to 0.00000089159 when I use JH's as the numerator. So enlighten us how that equates to 2200%. Then dividing that number by 100,000 = 0 on my "simple" calculaotr. My figures may be wrong, but certainly not intended to lie as you so cavalierly point out. Math was not my strong point in school, but reality definately is. Theory is nothing but a wish and a hope that it all works out in the end. Experience is what really happend or is witnessed. As for JH's the numbers don't mean squat because Alabama for instance may have very different definitions what constitutes a JH, compared to Michigan, or Ohio etc. It's a very gray area. I'ts been fun, I'm done.

Jfduece
02-15-2012, 08:48
Wow, okay, well I'm sorry if i got you a little twisted off. The whole point of my argument was to try to enlighten you on why the numbers are good. I don't doubt your experiences for one moment. I have never remotely argued against what your experience is telling you. You started by laughing off a reported figure and came back with no evidence to say why it is wrong. I've come 99% of the way in proving why it is correct, but you are to stubbron to even consider it.

There's no voodoo math here, just simple multiplication and division that you keep getting in the wrong order. I won't spin circles on that trying to convince you any further. I guess the only thing I will add is that as an engineer, math is something I like to think I'm pretty good at; my job kind of depends on it. So you can either believe me or not but if this goes any further its gonna end up like this:

http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html
(listen to the audio)

Oh, and as for consistency in reporting to the national database. Well, once again if you would do a little reading you would find that the key point FBI Uniform Crime Reports...is the "Uniform" part. They ensure that all reporting meets the same standard and that a uniform definition of each crime is used by all reporting agencys.

HoldHard
02-17-2012, 10:25
I look forward to reading about your involvement in making the region aware, thus creating a safer place. Best Regards.

I'll let one of the Free Press columnists, Mitch Albom tell you how it's done.... He did it far better that I ever could...

This is from a piece Mitch wrote back in 2009 called "The Courage of Detroit" (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/5161/courage-detroit) when the Lions had their memorable 0-16 season...

And yet Detroit was once a vibrant place, the fourth-largest city in the country, and it lives in the hope that those days, against all logic, will somehow return. We are downtrodden, perhaps, but the most downtrodden optimists you will ever meet. We cling to our ways, no matter how provincial they seem on the coasts. We get excited about the Auto Show. We celebrate Sweetest Day. We eat Coney dogs all year and we cruise classic cars down Woodward Avenue every August and we bake punchki donuts the week before Lent. We don’t talk about whether Detroit will be fixed but when Detroit will be fixed.
And we are modest. In truth, we battle an inferiority complex. We gave the world the automobile. Now the world wants to scold us for it. We gave the world Motown music. Motown moved its offices to L.A. When I arrived 24 years ago, to be a sports columnist at the Detroit Free Press, I discovered several letters waiting for me at the office. Mind you, I had not written a word. My hiring had been announced, that’s all. But there were already letters. Handwritten. And they all said, in effect, “Welcome to Detroit. We know you won’t stay long, because nobody good stays for long, but we hope you like it while you’re here.”

Nobody good stays for long.
We hope you like it while you’re here.
How could you not stay in a city like that?

And yet...
And yet to live in Detroit these days is to want to scream. But where do you begin? Our doors are being shuttered. Our walls are falling down. Our daily bread, the auto industry, is reduced to morsels. Our schools are in turmoil. Our mayor went to jail. Our two biggest newspapers announced they will soon cut home delivery to three days a week. Our most common lawn sign is FOR SALE. And our NFL team lost every week this season. A perfect 0-16. Even the homeless guys are sick of it.

We want to scream, but we don’t scream, because this is not a screaming place, this is a swallow-hard-and-deal-with-it place. So workers rise in darkness and rev their engines against the winter cold and drive to the plant and punch in and spend hours doing the work that America doesn’t want to do any more, the kind that makes something real and hard to the touch. Manufacturing. Remember manufacturing? They do that here. And then they punch out and drive home (three o’clock is rush hour in these parts, the end of a shift) and wash up and touch the kids under the chin and sit down for dinner and flip on the news.

And then they really want to scream.

Because what they see -- what all Detroit sees -- is a nation that appears ready to flick us away like lint. We see senators voting our death sentence. We see bankers clucking their tongues at our business model (as if we invented the credit default swap!). We see Californians knock our cars for ruining the environment (as if their endless driving has nothing to do with it). We see sports announcers call our football team “ridiculous.” Heck, during the Lions’ annual Thanksgiving game, CBS’s Shannon Sharpe actually wore a bag over his head.

It hurts us. We may not show it, but it does. You can say, “Aw, that’s the car business” or “That’s the Lions,” but we are the car business, we are the Lions. Our veins are right up under the city’s skin -- you cut Detroit, its citizens bleed.

We want to scream, but we don’t scream. Still, enough people declare you passé, a dinosaur, a dying town, out of touch with the free-market global economic machine, and pretty soon you wonder if they’re right. You wonder if you should join the exodus.

And yet...
And yet I had an idea once for a sports column: Get the four biggest stars from Detroit’s four major sports together in one place, for a night out. The consensus cast at the time (1990) was clear. Barry Sanders was the brightest light on the Lions. Steve Yzerman was Captain Heartthrob for the Red Wings. Joe Dumars was the most popular of the Pistons. And Cecil Fielder was the big bat for the Tigers.

All four agreed to meet at Tiger Stadium, before a game. I picked up Dumars at his house. He was alone. No entourage. Next we went for Sanders, who waited in the Silverdome parking lot, by himself, hands in pockets. When he got in, the two future Hall of Famers nodded at each other shyly. “Hey, man,” Barry said.

“Hey, man,” Joe answered.

At the stadium Yzerman, who drove himself, joined us, hands also dug in his pockets. As conversations go, it was like the first day of school. Awkwardness prevailed. Later -- after we chatted with Fielder -- we sat in the stands. The hot dog guy came by, and we passed them down: Lion to Red Wing to Piston. And when Yzerman put his elbow in front of Sanders, he quickly said, “Excuse me.”

Somehow I can’t see that being duplicated in Los Angeles. (“Kobe, pass this hot dog to Manny”) or New York City (“Hey, A-Rod, Stephon wants some mustard”). But it worked in Detroit. The guys actually thanked me afterward.

Stardom is a funny thing here. You don’t achieve it by talking loud or dating a supermodel. You achieve it by shyly lowering your head when they introduce you or by tossing the ball to the refs after scoring a touchdown. Humility, in Detroit, is on a par with heroism. Even Dennis Rodman didn’t get really crazy until he left.

This is just one part of a great article that describes the city and its people....

Maybe even worth a few minutes to read for those that have left.

HH

Radam3
02-17-2012, 11:26
I plan on going there next weekend for autorama. My G23 will be on my side the WHOLE time I am there. Granted I've been going to downtown Detroit since I could drive, and have never had a problem. But I'm no moron either. I know the threat is there, and WILL be prepared. I dont normally carry a extra mag, but the thought is crossing my mind...

HarleyGuy
02-17-2012, 14:47
I plan on going there next weekend for autorama. My G23 will be on my side the WHOLE time I am there. Granted I've been going to downtown Detroit since I could drive, and have never had a problem. But I'm no moron either. I know the threat is there, and WILL be prepared. I dont normally carry a extra mag, but the thought is crossing my mind...

I assume that you have an "exemption" on your CPL?
As far as I know, ALL of the downtown Detroit entertainment centers do not allow firearms.
Better check before you go.

BIG-B
02-19-2012, 11:34
I know that Detroit is a bad area but some of you guys are blowing it way out of proportion. The city as a whole is not a bad place there are just bad places in the city. If you play it smart and stay out of the areas that are guaranteed to have trouble you will be fine. My girlfriend and I go downtown to eat and walk the river walk often in the warmer months never had a single problem. I now live in a suburb that is considered to be a good neighborhood to live in but there is a lot of crime going on around here now too so it doesn't matter where you are it can be bad. I got my CPL and carry my G23 every where that I possibly can. My girlfriend asked why I carry my gun I said not because I'm scared I'm just prepared for what potentially can happen around here knowing the threats. So pretty much you walk around looking like a sheep the wolves are going to eat you.

Also I would just like to say those of you that have never been to the city do not bad mouth it based off of what you hear on the news. Come here and see the city for yourself and then make the judgment I promise you will never see me bad mouth your city until I have been there. That is all.