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Nine Shooter
02-12-2012, 23:42
...And I think I blew it. I bought an LWRCI M6A2 in 5.56 the other day and it just came in. Initial inspection seemed fine. However, when I brought it home I was very disappointed in the little details that should make a $2,000+ weapon.

I have to admit, I haven't even shot it yet and I don't think I will until some issues are resolved. Firstly, there is A LOT of play between the upper and lower receiver. The finish on the lower is good, on par with my other AR's. The upper's finish is lacking. There is a "scribble" in the finish on the left side, it looks like someone scratched it with a piece of wood or plastic.

The finish has already started wearing off the thumbscrews that remove the handguard even before I handled it. The VLTOR stock, Troy sights, and Magpul grip are nice touches, but I'd rather have a quality fitting and looking upper and lower. I emailed LWRCI so we'll see. Anyone else own one of these rifles? I think I bought into the hype of a "top tier" manufacturer :faint:

WoodenPlank
02-13-2012, 00:56
Play between the upper and lower isn't that big of a deal, honestly. Not sure about the finish issues, though.

davsco
02-13-2012, 09:24
frankly i haven't taken a magnifying glass to mine re fit and finish, but it absolutely runs and runs and runs, zero issues. have not used any super cheap stuff like steel case or foreign milsurp, but have shot a bunch of xm193 and the like, again no issues.

B.Reid
02-13-2012, 09:33
Try rubbing some oil on that scribble, it will probably go away.

HoldHard
02-13-2012, 09:50
Did you buy it with the intent of shooting it or is it going to be a safe queen?

Personally, there are weapons in my safe that cost twice as much as the LWRC rifle that's in there but they all have been fired. They all show marks of usage as the AR platform spits brass out which hits the deflector, leaving a mark.

If you have a problem with your rifle, contact (http://www.lwrci.com/t-contact.aspx) LWRC and they will address any and all issues. Their customer service is top notch.

HH

M&P15T
02-13-2012, 10:26
You are experiencing a phenomenon called "buyer's remorse", no big deal. That rifle could have been made from unobtanium and shoot golden BBs, and you wouldn't be happy.

And don't expect that going to the range and shooting it will be a magical experience either. As good as I've read LWRCs to be, they're still nothing more then a well-thought-out piston AR, it will physically shoot just like any other AR. The pay-off is easy clean-up and great reliability due to the internal coatings they use.

Other than excessive play, the issue is you, not the rifle. If the play really is that excessive, send it back and tell them to get it right.

jadams951
02-13-2012, 12:45
:rollingeyes:

12131
02-13-2012, 13:30
Wow! I just don't know what to say.:faint:

JaPes
02-13-2012, 13:48
Geez. The Black Rifle forum is a harsh place.

Nine Shooter
02-13-2012, 14:44
Thanks to those who posted helpful replies. I knew I'd get some criticism from the "firearms are tools, not safe-queens" school of thought. I understand they are. Trust me my very old, very used, agency issued Colt still shoots like a champ, but the finish has worn off in multiple places and I don't mind because it still does its job.

I kind of expected the $2000 gun I just bought to have a $2000 fit and finish. That's all. I don't want to start trouble, I just asked for feedback from those who may have experience with LWRCI rifles. Call me picky, but when I throw down 2k for a gun, I want to be the guy who puts the first scratches on it. I also found that the A2 flash hider was marred by a tool or wrench of some sort when it was installed.

I'll post back when/what I find out. I really want to like this rifle.

Nine Shooter
02-13-2012, 14:49
Someone once told me that upper/lower play can be eliminated or reduced by replacing the pivot and take down pins with larger ones. Is that true? I am familiar with the accu-wedge method, but I'm wondering if anyone else has done the pins?

davsco
02-13-2012, 14:51
how about posting a pic showing the upper/lower play?

Mayhem like Me
02-13-2012, 14:56
No pins will fix it, the accuwedge is garbage don't put it in the gun.

Are we talking a wiggle a wobble or a shake?

Wiggle is fine.

LWRC will make sure the gun is in spec call them, the squiggle sounds like something rubbed it try rubbing off with oil and a rag.

Mayhem like Me
02-13-2012, 14:58
Thanks to those who posted helpful replies. I knew I'd get some criticism from the "firearms are tools, not safe-queens" school of thought. I understand they are. Trust me my very old, very used, agency issued Colt still shoots like a champ, but the finish has worn off in multiple places and I don't mind because it still does its job.

I kind of expected the $2000 gun I just bought to have a $2000 fit and finish. That's all. I don't want to start trouble, I just asked for feedback from those who may have experience with LWRCI rifles. Call me picky, but when I throw down 2k for a gun, I want to be the guy who puts the first scratches on it. I also found that the A2 flash hider was marred by a tool or wrench of some sort when it was installed.

I'll post back when/what I find out. I really want to like this rifle.

You paid 2000 for the materials and engineering in that gun not for fit and finish.

anyway LWRC wants you happy call them and have them make it better.

Nine Shooter
02-13-2012, 15:21
Swatbwana, thank you for your reply. The best way I can describe it is if I place my left hand on the upper rail where an optic would go while holding the grip with my right hand, I can move the upper quite a bit from side to side (not front-back) in a "rolling" motion.

I can catch the bottom ledge of the upper with my finger when I push it completely to one side. I can also hold it lengthwise up to my face and see daylight the whole distance between the upper and lower.

I don't know how to measure or take a photo of it accurately. From my understanding, front to back play is fine, whereas side to side motion is no bueno? The oil and rag didn't remove the flaws in the finish. I hear good things about LWRCI's CS, I'll wait for their reply.

MrMurphy
02-13-2012, 16:48
Play in either direction will not affect accuracy.

It may affect feeding if you're in a really weird position and stressing the gun in an odd way. That's about it.

I shot expert with a Frankenrifle M16A2 that had an original (no fence around the mag release, full auto overstamped) lower and an FN upper which literally rattled when shook.

B.Reid
02-13-2012, 16:57
Since the sights are attached to the upper, play makes no difference.

Nine Shooter
02-13-2012, 17:43
Since the sights are attached to the upper, play makes no difference.

Yup, I know. In regards to the amount of play, I'm mainly concerned with feeding, reliability, huge gap for foreign material to enter into the receiver.

rjdriver
02-13-2012, 17:52
You could use a JP Tension Pin you can find them here
http://www.jprifles.com/1.5.1.7_small_tp.php
the only thing is you won't be able to disassemble the gun in a hurry but it will tighten it up as far as accuracy goes....I wouldn't worry about it my POF is the same way and it shoots real well for a black rifle.....it is what it is!
Best

Mayhem like Me
02-13-2012, 18:41
it sounds on the high side of what would be acceptable , call them and get a return tag and write in detail the observations.

They will make it right. A tension pin wont fix a gap, the gap will still be there.

Nine Shooter
02-13-2012, 18:42
You could use a JP Tension Pin you can find them here
http://www.jprifles.com/1.5.1.7_small_tp.php
the only thing is you won't be able to disassemble the gun in a hurry but it will tighten it up as far as accuracy goes....I wouldn't worry about it my POF is the same way and it shoots real well for a black rifle.....it is what it is!
Best

Wow, thanks rj, I had no idea those existed!

ScrapMetal
02-13-2012, 18:42
Nine, you did the right thing and contacted LWRC. They will make it right for ya! I own a M6A2, M6A3 upper, 20" REPR, and I just put a deposit down on a M6IC. While the fit and finish on all 3 that I own are great (M6A2 is a little beat up from about 10K rounds down range, it was my first LWRC and was purchased in 08), my M6A2 does have the same sort of play that you're describing. It has been a total non issue for me. My REPR did however, have a slight issue with the rail pieces not screwing into the handguards. LWRC emailed me a shipping label, and I had the rifle back the next week.

As some of the other posters have suggested. You paid 2k for the reliability, barrel, coatings etc etc. I have a Knight's SR15 that looks like complete crap (from the factory), with all kinds of streaking in the finish on the upper receiver. The URX rail came with all kinds of dings and finish "nicks"....and I wasn't particularly happy with it upon pulling it out of the box, but I didn't pay $1,800 for it to look pretty. You bought a good rifle that will run hard for ya, and I know if you're not happy LWRC will make it right. AJ is the guy you want to get in contact with. Give them a call and ask for him.

Mayhem like Me
02-13-2012, 18:46
A JP pin will tension the uppers but wont fix the poor fit the gap will remain.

get a return tag and let them make you happy...

I am presently waiting on my PDW paperwork to clear from uncle sugar.....

MrMurphy
02-14-2012, 04:24
Nine, I once ran an M16A2 (yes, the dreaded DI gun) with dirty, fouling blanks, in a pouring monsoon level rainstorm through a combat assault course that involved low crawling through mud and grass for a solid 50 m in a straight line, diving into/out of trenches, busting through trees and bushes, and (joy!) low crawling on my back through a barbed wire pit that had become a barbed wire pool. The muzzle was out of the water, as was my nose and lips, everything else was submerged, muddy and filthy.

Gun ran fine except for the odd blank-induced hiccup from not enough gas.

That little slot won't matter much for 'foreign object' entry.

HoldHard
02-14-2012, 07:06
If you have a problem with your rifle, contact (http://www.lwrci.com/t-contact.aspx) (<--click) LWRC and they will address any and all issues. Their customer service is top notch.

HH

anyway LWRC wants you happy call them and have them make it better.

As swatbwana stated, you will find that LWRC is a stand up company. As already posted, AJ is the guy to contact. Their information is in the first quoted entry, just click on "contact" and it will take you to their webpage.

Keep us posted on the results.

HH

pag23
02-14-2012, 09:27
I would also PM Airborne Infantryman as he has bought a bunch of their products and from his posts on this forum is very happy with them. You bought a quality product from what I hvae heard and read about.

My BCM mid length has a bit of a wobble between upper & lower but so far hasn't had any issues so I am not worrying about it.

Nine Shooter
02-14-2012, 18:36
Got emails today (1 day wait) from Charles Lafferty & Rodney Nelson of LWRC. Provided my serial number and Nelson said he'll be emailing a FedEx shipping label ASAP. So far their service is top notch!

pag23
02-15-2012, 12:58
See........ great customer service from a great company.

Nine Shooter
04-16-2012, 20:32
I received my rifle back today via FedEx. It was preceded by a typed letter in the mail from LWRC with comments on what they did to it:

They cleaned the barrel to remove some sort of copper colored residue towards the end that was left there during the manufacturing process. There were two or so spots where the finish was still worn off the barrel, down to bare metal.

They checked the upper to lower tolerances and said it was okay by their standard.

As far as the scratches in the surface of the finish on the upper receiver... They absolutely slathered the entire gun in oil to hide them. I wiped it down and they were still there in entirety. They also completely ignored the marred A2 flash hider. I mean really? Would it have killed them to have replaced a $10 part?

In conclusion I am overall not happy with LWRC'S level of fit and finish and customer service. I had detailed all the issues I had with the new weapon to them before I sent it back. I'm not being biased or bitter, its just my humble opinion that the gun's appearance does not live up to its 2k+ price tag.

Again I am not trying to bash the company, but I would likely not buy any further LWRC products in the future without handling them first. Just too much of a crapshoot on quality to buy new, sight unseen. Hopefully it will redeem itself in functionality.

WoodenPlank
04-16-2012, 20:34
I received my rifle back today via FedEx. It was preceded by a typed letter in the mail from LWRC with comments on what they did to it:

They cleaned the barrel to remove some sort of copper colored residue towards the end that was left there during the manufacturing process. There were two or so spots where the finish was still worn off the barrel, down to bare metal.

They checked the upper to lower tolerances and said it was okay by their standard.

As far as the scratches in the surface of the finish on the upper receiver... They absolutely slathered the entire gun in oil to hide them. I wiped it down and they were still there in entirety. They also completely ignored the marred A2 flash hider. I mean really? Would it have killed them to have replaced a $10 part?

In conclusion I am overall not happy with LWRC'S level of fit and finish and customer service. I had detailed all the issues I had with the new weapon to them before I sent it back. I'm not being biased or bitter, its just my humble opinion that the gun's appearance does not live up to its 2k+ price tag.

Again I am not trying to bash the company, but I would likely not buy any further LWRC products in the future without handling them first. Just too much of a crapshoot on quality to buy new, sight unseen. Hopefully it will redeem itself in functionality.

Yeouch. Sorry to hear about your issues. For their asking prices, I'd definitely expect better of them!

PlasticGuy
04-17-2012, 13:57
There are a lot of people who drink the LWRC cool-aid. I have shot them. They shoot fine. Fit and finish is good, but nothing special. I have a lot of rounds through PWS rifles (mostly in select fire), and thing their fit and finish is at least as good and function is better. And for a lower price. Heaven forbid you say that in front of an LWRC owner though. I expect I'll get the usual abuse here for posting that opinion, but it's the truth.

GSSF17
04-17-2012, 14:41
There are a lot of people who drink the LWRC cool-aid. I have shot them. They shoot fine. Fit and finish is good, but nothing special. I have a lot of rounds through PWS rifles (mostly in select fire), and thing their fit and finish is at least as good and function is better. And for a lower price. Heaven forbid you say that in front of an LWRC owner though. I expect I'll get the usual abuse here for posting that opinion, but it's the truth.

See, I don't think you are out of line here. You shared some legitimate experience and your observations of a particular weapon, and that's cool. There are a few of us who appreciate that. I am one of them.

I have not patronized LWRC because of stories like the OP's. I have several mid grade and a couple "top tier" rifles, but LWRC has not had my business, and with issues like this, they will not. Just can't justify it for the price.

That, and a piston AR is not my thing. At all.

Nine Shooter
04-17-2012, 15:03
I was drawn in by the ease of cleaning of a piston gun and LWRC got the best reviews as far as reliability and fewest instances of carrier tilt.

I plan to replace the damaged flash hider myself with something aftermarket and get something engraved on the upper to hide the scratched area. I'll probably try a little of that touch up cold bluing on the bare spots on the barrel as well.

I threw an accu-wedge between the upper and lower to remove the slop. Yeah I know, haters gonna hate :)

WoodenPlank
04-17-2012, 15:39
I was drawn in by the ease of cleaning of a piston gun and LWRC got the best reviews as far as reliability and fewest instances of carrier tilt.

I plan to replace the damaged flash hider myself with something aftermarket and get something engraved on the upper to hide the scratched area. I'll probably try a little of that touch up cold bluing on the bare spots on the barrel as well.

I threw an accu-wedge between the upper and lower to remove the slop. Yeah I know, haters gonna hate :)

You'll hate it, too, when it starts to screw up the holes in your lower.

Get some aluminum black in pen for or jar for the scratches on the receiver, it'll knock em right out.

faawrenchbndr
04-17-2012, 15:39
Sorry to hear of your LWRC issues.

I've been shooting the M16/AR15 for 27 years. I just recently
bought an Adams Arms piston upper. I freakin LOVE it!
Runs cool, cleaner, just as accurate, requires a lot less lube.

ScrapMetal
04-17-2012, 18:30
Ah that sucks, I've had the exact opposite experience with LWRC. Can you take some pictures so we can see the flaws?

Roger1079
04-18-2012, 07:13
I have an LWRC rifle back from the old company (pre April 2008) when they were still under the name Leitner-Wise Rifle Company. There is a very slight bit of side to side motion between the lower and upper (cannot feel the edge when moved as far as it will go) and none from front to back. The finish on mine has held up great for over 5000 rounds now. There are obvious wear marks that have eaten away at the coating, but nothing that has compromised the function in any way. This rifle has also NEVER malfunctioned on me and it has been fed everything from frangible ammo, Wolf ammo, to premium brands.

I assure you, the rifle will serve you well for years to come, however if it really bothers you that much which is also understandable, contact LWRCI and let them make it right for you.

If you have any other questions about my rifle, let me know.

Nine Shooter
04-18-2012, 13:09
I have an LWRC rifle back from the old company (pre April 2008) when they were still under the name Leitner-Wise Rifle Company. There is a very slight bit of side to side motion between the lower and upper (cannot feel the edge when moved as far as it will go) and none from front to back. The finish on mine has held up great for over 5000 rounds now. There are obvious wear marks that have eaten away at the coating, but nothing that has compromised the function in any way. This rifle has also NEVER malfunctioned on me and it has been fed everything from frangible ammo, Wolf ammo, to premium brands.

I assure you, the rifle will serve you well for years to come, however if it really bothers you that much which is also understandable, contact LWRCI and let them make it right for you.

If you have any other questions about my rifle, let me know.

Roger is this the same company known as Wise-Lite who got such a bad rep for their RPD builds?

jadams951
04-18-2012, 13:59
Roger is this the same company known as Wise-Lite who got such a bad rep for their RPD builds?

LWRCi, formerly knows as Land Warfare Resource Group, formerly known as Leitner Wise Rifle Company has never been known as Wise-Lite. I've been running their guns since 2006 when the infamous Paul LW was there. My first upper(one of the first) had issues but got fixed. Since the first one I've had 7 or 8 now and they all run. I'm continuously impressed how they continue to evolve with upgrades.

I run mine for duty use and trust my life with it. Some people just can't be pleased no matter what happens.

For gas piston I run LWRC and DI I run BCM. Both I love and trust.

Shoot the darn thing.