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Madmax1010
02-14-2012, 05:39
Hi

My wife's Nephew is being transfered to NJ for his job.
When he cked into getting a carry permit there he was told he could not carry HP's.

He carries a g23 and he will now carry 180 gr FMJ/FN do any of you carry that instead of HP'S?

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 05:46
Hi

My wife's Nephew is being transfered to NJ for his job.
When he cked into getting a carry permit there he was told he could not carry HP's.

He carries a g23 and he will now carry 180 gr FMJ/FN do any of you carry that instead of HP'S?


Unless you are a cop or are extremely well connected you will not get a carry permit in NJ. No out of state carry permit is recognized in NJ.

And yes, if by some luck he gets a permit, carrying hollow points are a no-no. But you can use hollow points in your home for self-defense.

DannyR
02-14-2012, 05:49
He has my sympathy. See http://www.federalpremium.com/promotions/press_releases.aspx?id=405&brand=5&year=2011

Quarter Tank
02-14-2012, 05:50
it would suck to live in NJ and NY

BG carry all the time but the law abiding citizen cant

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 05:53
BG carry all the time but the law abiding citizen cant

Bingo!!!! We have a winner.

To bad the law makers can't see this.

lehigh
02-14-2012, 05:53
Hi

My wife's Nephew is being transfered to NJ for his job.
When he cked into getting a carry permit there he was told he could not carry HP's.

He carries a g23 and he will now carry 180 gr FMJ/FN do any of you carry that instead of HP'S?
I believe it's a crime to carry HPs in New Jersery. And it's hard to get a carry permit too.
But you do what you have to do and if his job takes him there I guess he has to go.
Lehigh...

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 06:00
I believe it's a crime to carry HPs in New Jersery. And it's hard to get a carry permit too.
But you do what you have to do and if his job takes him there I guess he has to go.
Lehigh...

I live in NJ and know the laws pretty well.

It is not illegal to own hollow points. They can be used for range and in your house for self defense. However, it is illegal to carry hollow points -- if you can get a carry permit. It is also illegal to use hollow points in a crime.

LEO's carry hollow points when active, once retired, they are no longer allowed to carry hollow points.

lehigh
02-14-2012, 06:10
It is also illegal to use hollow points in a crime.


Wow get out!
It sounds funny to say that. I can't believe that someone made that law.Only in New jerersy.
Did you know you can get a speeding ticket at a drag strip with a racer car in NJ?
Lehigh...

voyager4520
02-14-2012, 06:11
If he has any magazines over 15 round capacity he can't take them to NJ, I don't know much more than that about NJ's crazy laws.

Oh yeah, and something about seagulls. :whistling:

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 06:19
If he has any magazines over 15 round capacity he can't take them to NJ, I don't know much more than that about NJ's crazy laws.


Correct. Magazines are limited to 15rds (pistols & rifles).

Autoloading shotguns are limited to 6 rds, no pistol grip. Pump shotguns max 15rds, pistol grip is ok.

No flash hiders, no threaded barrels, no colapsable stocks, no bayonet lugs. A colapsable stock must be pinned. A muzzle brake/compensator must be pinned/welded permanent. Higher capacity magazines can be pinned/welded to 15 and be compliant (must be permanent).

No suppressors, no automatic weapons.

You do not need to register your guns with NJ when you move here. But they do have to be NJ compliant.

BuckyP
02-14-2012, 06:22
He has my sympathy. See http://www.federalpremium.com/promotions/press_releases.aspx?id=405&brand=5&year=2011

EFMJ is a gray area and can be problematic as well. The law is against "dum-dum" bullets (you can't make this up), which is typically defined as any bullet designed to expand.

(1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet

To the OP, where in NJ is the job. If it's close enough to the border, consider PA for residency.

<<--- Works in NJ, lives in PA

DannyR
02-14-2012, 06:22
It is also against the law in NJ to pump your own gas.

Moravia
02-14-2012, 06:25
I'm a LEO in MD. I called a NJ State Police Barrack to ask about out of state LEO carry. The trooper advised me that it did not matter whether one was out of state LEO or not, if I was caught with HP rounds, even though that is my duty ammo, I would go to jail, no questions asked. I feel terrible for the citizens of that state that care for their 2A right. I would not step foot in NJ for ANY reason. Maryland is not much better for citizens, but we are at least out of state LEO friendly, per HR 218.

I feel sorry for your wife's nephew. Good luck to him.

Moravia
02-14-2012, 06:26
EFMJ is a gray area and can be problematic as well. The law is against "dum-dum" bullets (you can't make this up), which is typically defined as any bullet designed to expand.



To the OP, where in NJ is the job. If it's close enough to the border, consider PA for residency.

<<--- Works in NJ, lives in PA


This.

swtxtitan
02-14-2012, 06:29
I was told once by a guy from new jersey ........that if the USA was a human body, new jersey would be the arm pit. Just sayin

gatorboy
02-14-2012, 06:30
This is what I'd carry:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210&osCsid=rjgsq9qcc3iij605oc4jfglf11

I_Hate_George_Lucas
02-14-2012, 06:32
Also certain firearms and outlawed by name and brand. I know for sure M1 Carbines are outlawed. Yo can order one straight from the Federal Government (CMP) but they're outlawed in NJ.

CCW Permits in NJ are very hard to get. Limited to the politically connected or those that are LEOs. I know that even after LEOs retired before LEOSA CCW permits for retired cops was a pain in the ass to get.

JHP are outlawed for CCW use except for active LEOs and other government agents. Federal's EFMJ is the de facto CCW choice for CCW/LEOSA carry in NJ. I wonder if Cor-bon Glaser Pow'Rball or Glaser Safety Slug is legal for carry.

GoBigOrange
02-14-2012, 06:38
My co-workers and I were just discussing yesterday how much money it would take for me to move to one of the socialist states up North. I would NEVER EVER move to NJ. Period.

No job is worth losing my personal liberties.

I_Hate_George_Lucas
02-14-2012, 06:39
It is also against the law in NJ to pump your own gas.

Also if I remember it's illegal to make "left" turns in NJ. I think everything there is jug-handle turns. Haven't been to NJ in a long while and I'm glad it's been a long while. My family can come down and visit me in Miami. I won't go up to Union.

rewster
02-14-2012, 06:43
I was told once by a guy from new jersey ........that if the USA was a human body, new jersey would be the arm pit. Just sayin

Actually, I think the particular body part is a little lower and behind :whistling:

Deye76
02-14-2012, 06:43
Kiss your girlfriend where it stinks......



take her to New Jersey! :rofl:

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 06:44
Also if I remember it's illegal to make "left" turns in NJ. I think everything there is jug-handle turns. Haven't been to NJ in a long while and I'm glad it's been a long while. My family can come down and visit me in Miami. I won't go up to Union.


Hahaha. It's almost illegal. There are some places you can make a left. :shocked:

And yes the M1 Carbine is banned by name. But mostly because of the bayonet lug.

XPerties
02-14-2012, 07:03
I just escaped that crap state and moved to OK about 7 months ago. I have family and friends in law enforcement from basic LEO's to US Marshall's and you can forget any right you may think when you live in that state. Good luck.

BTW if you own a gun you must also go to your local PD and have it registered to that house. Not doing so is breaking the law.

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 07:09
BTW if you own a gun you must also go to your local PD and have it registered to that house. Not doing so is breaking the law.


This is incorrect. If you move to NJ with guns you legally own, you are not required to register them with your local PD or the State. However, they must be made NJ compliant e.g. max 15rd mags, etc.

The less NJ knows, the better for you.

gatorboy
02-14-2012, 07:09
California sounds great after reading about this hell-hole! NJ is officially #50 on my list of states to live, Mass. is #49. I'd live in NH or Vermont if I had to live in the N.E. which thank God I don't! My condolences to you few sane folks who must put up with it. You could always move and try starting that business you always thought you'd do well with, I would whether I had family (extended) there or not.

Rumbler_G20
02-14-2012, 07:20
. . . never needed a job that bad in my entire life. And I am old. :faint:

mrsurfboard
02-14-2012, 07:35
This is incorrect. If you move to NJ with guns you legally own, you are not required to register them with your local PD or the State. However, they must be made NJ compliant e.g. max 15rd mags, etc.

The less NJ knows, the better for you.

And you would have to obtain a NJ Firearms ID Card.

Obi Wan
02-14-2012, 07:39
NJ is now a prime example of a Communist State. They passed the 'Socialist' status years ago.

P.S. I lived there for eight years decades ago and enjoyed most of it, but even then I could see the changes coming and got out when I could.

dp2002813
02-14-2012, 07:52
NJ refugee now living in America somewhere. Your question seems to be answered pretty well, but I have one for the nephew. I am serious when I ask, does he know what he is getting into?

- Does that nephew know how much the cost of living is in NJ? The property taxes on a 2200sq home with 3/4 acre were $9200 per year and rose $500-800 every year. That is still kinda cheap. In 2010, some in Princeton had their taxes doubled. One fella's went from $20,000 to 40,000.

- Auto insurance is crazy too. My 4 door, 4 cylinder sedan cost 1200 p/y to insure and I had a clean record.

- Good doctors are a real pain in the tail feathers to find.

- Traffic... you don't even want to think about it. It used to take me 45-75mins to get to work. It was only 10 miles AND on the back roads! LA, Boston, NYC will be worse, but NJ is bad all over. I think it is the other reason Jerseyites can't carry sidearms. It took me two years to learn how to drive among civil people again.

- NJ is one of four states most likely to go bankrupt, though Christie is trying his best, I think, to help the state out. (CA, IL, NY)

- Newark, Trenton, and Camden have all laid-off LEOs. Then again, Newark hasn't been right since the 70's when the mob allegedly took control of the city. Car jacking also is nothing new there; going on since the 70's. The Phil and NY mobs allegedly jointly ran NJ operations. They used to meet in a little section of Trenton... That was the cleanest and safest part of town. The Italian food was superb, but that area is all gone now.

I don't hate the state, in fact, there are a lot of cool things in NJ to see and do... GOD! I miss the pizza. The truth is, it is a very different place to live than most. The nephew should visit a few times before taking that job op. Having been out of work, I know he may not have much choice. JMHO

Good luck to him either way.

BigMoosie
02-14-2012, 07:54
it would suck to live in NJ and NY

BG carry all the time but the law abiding citizen cant

While NYC is bad, NYS is much much better than NJ. The average Joe can carry in NYS.

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 08:15
And you would have to obtain a NJ Firearms ID Card.

Only if you wanted to purcahse more guns. Otherwise you are not required to obtain an FID (firearms ID card)card.

Iceman cHucK
02-14-2012, 08:59
If he has any magazines over 15 round capacity he can't take them to NJ, I don't know much more than that about NJ's crazy laws.

Oh yeah, and something about seagulls. :whistling:

Moving to NJ - MISTAKE! I escaped many years ago and hate to go back to see friends and family.

Seagulls? Do you know why they fly upside down over NJ?
There is nothing there worth pooping on!!!:upeyes:

Madmax1010
02-14-2012, 09:16
Well

He is not moving to NJ buy choice his job is transferring him there for he thinks at least 5 yrs.
I am not going to tell him what I am hearing just yet but he will not be happy I am sure.
He will be in newark I believe. He makes about 150 to 175 a yr so I am sure he will find away to make it 4 or 5 yrs.:dunno:

XPerties
02-14-2012, 09:23
This is incorrect. If you move to NJ with guns you legally own, you are not required to register them with your local PD or the State. However, they must be made NJ compliant e.g. max 15rd mags, etc.

The less NJ knows, the better for you.

Odd because Washington TWP (South Jersey) would disagree with you but I'm not interested in debating the issue. I think we all (Who lives or who has lived in NJ) would agree with:

[1] Get out if you can.
[2] Yes the Pizza and cheese steaks are the best
[3] Even though the trip is enough to make you insane we still all make that single trip to the shore every year

Brasso
02-14-2012, 09:39
It amazes me that an entire state is full of people willing to live like that. And they must like it or they would vote to change it. Amazing.

This is why all is ultimately lost. As the public schools indoctrinate our youth, they will all eventually be equally as stupid as people who live in states like NJ.

XPerties
02-14-2012, 09:43
they will all eventually be equally as stupid as people who live in states like NJ.


I wouldn't bash or call people who live in NJ stupid. It is what it is, no need to attack anyone.

dkf
02-14-2012, 11:35
I've found a lot of people from NJ well I will just say "unique" and not in a good way IMO. A lot don't seem to mind seem to like living in a commie state thats going downhill faster than Greece. I have to go over for business from time to time but try to avoid it at all possible. Just remember to go through your vehicle before heading to NJ for any spare mags and anythign that may be illegal in NJ.(which is practically everything) A spare mag with HPs can get you serious jail time for basically no reason.

GlockinNJ
02-14-2012, 11:43
The Phil and NY mobs allegedly jointly ran NJ operations. They used to meet in a little section of Trenton... That was the cleanest and safest part of town. The Italian food was superb, but that area is all gone now.



Sounds like you are talking about Chambersburg, where I grew up.

diamondd2
02-14-2012, 11:49
Odd because Washington TWP (South Jersey) would disagree with you but I'm not interested in debating the issue. I think we all (Who lives or who has lived in NJ) would agree with:

[1] Get out if you can.
[2] Yes the Pizza and cheese steaks are the best
[3] Even though the trip is enough to make you insane we still all make that single trip to the shore every year

Washington Township does not make the laws. The laws are made by the State and State Police. And as usual a local PD misinformed a citizen (you) of the correct laws.

For you, the OP, and any NJ firearm owner/enthusiast, I highly recommend getting a book called the "NJ Gun Law Guide" by Evan Nappen, firearms attorney. This book has everything you wanted to know about NJ gun laws. It will keep you from becoming a criminal, and keep you from being misinformed, intimidated, and/or pushed around by your local PD.

http://www.evannappen.com/

GlockinNJ
02-14-2012, 11:59
It amazes me that an entire state is full of people willing to live like that. And they must like it or they would vote to change it. Amazing.

This is why all is ultimately lost. As the public schools indoctrinate our youth, they will all eventually be equally as stupid as people who live in states like NJ.

Although I hate NJ gun laws, I love living here. NJ has a lot to offer besides it's horrible 2A stance. We have great restaurants, culture and activities, close proximity to NYC, skiing and the shore. We enjoy four seasons and beautiful vistas. Yes, it's true. Not everyone from NJ drives a Camaro, wears too much cologne and hairspray. And there are plenty of nice, safe, family friendly neighborhoods nowhere near prisons or toxic waste dumps.

NJ gun lovers exist, but we sometimes live in the shadows of regular NJ society. Guns are not a typical topic of conversation in NJ suburban social circles. But, there are ardent 2A supporters in NJ, even if we are outnumbered.

People in NJ aren't stupid, but they are ignorant about guns because it's the environment here, at least in my experience. Many in NJ have never tried firing a gun, but that doesn't mean they are anti-gun. I've turned lots of my neighbors on to guns. I take them to the local range, give them some trigger time and they are hooked. I consider myself an ambassador for 2A for my community and so far, my job has been pretty easy. I've had 3-4 friends apply for their FFID because they had fun at the range with me and want protection at home. IMO, the politicians don't speak for my neighbors regarding 2A.

There are good people in NJ, but they just happen to live in an anti-gun environment.

40 S+W
02-14-2012, 12:09
When ever I read about how gunrights are going up in the North East I say to myself why can't folks just vote for a change in these laws!!!! Truth be known,,, there are a lot of gun haters up there and we better be vigelent in the rest of the Country cause this could spread!!!! Look at England and Australia I'm sure folks there said NEVER HERE but their gun rights are GONE!!!!!!!!

Brasso
02-14-2012, 12:54
I'm sorry, and while this may sound harsh, anyone who willingly gives up their natural, God given right to self defense, is stupid. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.

Captain Caveman
02-14-2012, 14:06
I've found a lot of people from NJ well I will just say "unique" and not in a good way IMO. A lot don't seem to mind seem to like living in a commie state thats going downhill faster than Greece. I have to go over for business from time to time but try to avoid it at all possible. Just remember to go through your vehicle before heading to NJ for any spare mags and anythign that may be illegal in NJ.(which is practically everything) A spare mag with HPs can get you serious jail time for basically no reason.


Happened to a good friend of mine. Got pulled over on traffic and had a weapon in the truck. Didn't get popped for the 92FS, but did for the HP's in the mags. His ignorance of the laws ALMOST got him jail time, but it was bargained down to community service in his home state. Lucky, he was.

ChiefWPD
02-14-2012, 15:45
I'm a LEO in MD. I called a NJ State Police Barrack to ask about out of state LEO carry. The trooper advised me that it did not matter whether one was out of state LEO or not, if I was caught with HP rounds, even though that is my duty ammo, I would go to jail, no questions asked. I feel terrible for the citizens of that state that care for their 2A right. I would not step foot in NJ for ANY reason. Maryland is not much better for citizens, but we are at least out of state LEO friendly, per HR 218.

I feel sorry for your wife's nephew. Good luck to him.

The trooper was in error:

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 delineated the national off-duty concealed firearms carry rights and requirements for active sworn, and retired, law enforcement officers. Senate S.1132 and House H.R. 3752 were bills introduced in 2009 to amend the original LEOSA and make needed improvements.

Becoming Public Law No. 111-272 on 10/12/2010, the following changes to LEOSA went into effect:

Includes the carry of ammunition “not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act.” Federally legal ammunition, such as hollow-point bullets, can be carried where state law would normally prohibit it (i.e. New Jersey).

dp2002813
02-14-2012, 15:49
Sounds like you are talking about Chambersburg, where I grew up.

Yes sir. It was a great little part of Trenton.

fredj338
02-14-2012, 15:55
IF they ever pass such stupid legislation here, I will carry soft lead FP in my gun. Not as good as a HP but they will deform some, better than smooth FMJ. This would also be the one of the only reasons I would carry handloads. Kalif sucks, but not quite so much as NJ. My condolences, at least we have great weather to go with our crappy laws, taxes, & all the add'l. cost of living in such nice weather.:suntan:

SJ 40
02-14-2012, 16:04
My condolences to your nephew,Thankfully I live in Vermont.
Where we have a Constitution,do not need any ones permission to exercise our constitutional rights. Carry open or concealed your choice,any kind of ammunition,any capacity magazines, and legally manufactured firearm.
What those Old Dead Guys had in mind when they wrote the document,that supposedly guarantied Freedom, I know it's a old fashioned idea. SJ 40

WiskyT
02-14-2012, 16:33
- NJ is one of four states most likely to go bankrupt, though Christie is trying his best, I think, to help the state out. (CA, IL, NY)




Don't get all warm and fuzzy about christie. I'm as conservative as it gets, and if I still lived in NJ I would have voted fro him based on his campaign promises. BUT, he has done nothing to solve NJ's budget problems. He pissed away his first year in office engaging in class warfare against teachers, cops and FF's (the ones who actually work in the field). My stepdaughter makes 60K a year as a public school teacher in a state with 400k starter houses. What does he expect her to do, work for 50K a year? Meanwhile he has done nothing about all the welfare programs, layers of public employee administrators making 200k a year, etc. The state is going broke, the pension system is broke and all christie did was to get every employee who can to retire and start drawing their pensions all at once.

In the end, christie will do as much for the republican party as whitman did. If you want a real problem solver, with conservative values, support Bret Schundler in anything he does.

fredj338
02-14-2012, 16:40
The state is going broke, the pension system is broke and all christie did was to get every employee who can to retire and start drawing their pensions all at once..
Thread hijack. ^^^^ This is exactly why most states are in the red. The over paid govt pension systems. Defined benefit retirement + healthcare for life, has bankrupted most large companies & will ALL govt agencies as well. You are right, you can't balance the budget on solely on the backs of the govt employees, but consider what they are paid at every level compared to private sector folks, it's a crime, really. I would say your daughter is fortunate to be making $60K for 9m of work a year. Most of us have to put in 11m min for our pay.:dunno: If the govt employees don't negotiate, the result will be bankrupcy, just look to Greece, that is where the entire country @ every level is going.:steamed:

WiskyT
02-14-2012, 17:11
Thread hijack. ^^^^ This is exactly why most states are in the red. The over paid govt pension systems. Defined benefit retirement + healthcare for life, has bankrupted most large companies & will ALL govt agencies as well. You are right, you can't balance the budget on solely on the backs of the govt employees, but consider what they are paid at every level compared to private sector folks, it's a crime, really. I would say your daughter is fortunate to be making $60K for 9m of work a year. Most of us have to put in 11m min for our pay.:dunno: If the govt employees don't negotiate, the result will be bankrupcy, just look to Greece, that is where the entire country @ every level is going.:steamed:

Except none of that is the fault of the employees in Nj despite christies class war against them. Police and FF in NJ pay 8.5% of their gross into the pension system. In the case of municipal workers, the town pays some amount too. Except whitman excused the towns from paying anything at all and all governors since continued the pratice. Then they borrowed against the pension funds that were left. So the emplyees paid in, nobody else did, and then the state raided the whole thing and now blame the only people who paid into the thing for wanting to get what is contractually owed to them.

Christies "reforms" apply retroactively to people who paid in for 25 years and are already retired! Do you think that will hold up in court? The state doesn't even have standing in the muni employees contracts as it pays nothing to them.

Christie is making employees pay large portions of their health insurance when they aren't even in the state health benefits program? It would be like me telling your boss to pay you less and I'm not a stock holder in your company.

There is a Contract Clause in the Constitution. A municipal employee has a contract with a municipality that says they get paid $10.00 a year and have to pay $1.00 for their benies. The state pays none of that and christie comes in and says "Pay him $9.00 a year and make him pay $2.00 a year for his benies". Never mind the contract, never mind the lack of standing by the state, just do it. In the end it will get overturned, christie will be out of office since property taxes are going up just as fast as they were before he got in, and the state is just more broke than it was previously.

Now he's going after accrued time! So ten years ago you worked and OT shift. Your Lt ordered you to do it. Then the town begged you to take compensatory time instead of cash and you agreed to that to. So they OWE you YOUR money that they begged you to keep in their bank. You go to retire and christie says "Don't pay him the money you owe him". And it's all because he uses corrupt desk slugs with thousands of hours of "accrued time" (that they never worked)
as examples of why the cop who sat in a room with a mutilated baby for 10 hours shouldn't get paid for it because it's "not fair" that cops make more money than dental hygienists. If christie wants to do something, let him go after the corruption like my chief who goes on vacation all the time and never has any time taken from his account.

It's all just a sham that he is doing to make it look like he's doing something. All he does is alienate some of the only people actually working and ZERO to get the state out of the red.

WiskyT
02-14-2012, 17:22
Oh, and my daughter works 10 months a year and like I said, a mortgage on a starter home is $3,000.00 a month. 60K in NJ is worth about as much as it is in Orange county. The problem isn't teachers making 60K, it's the BOE administrators making 250K and the they have a bunch of them. They get individual contracts, fall out of favor, and then get paid the balance of the contract for no longer working there, meanwhile another administrator (who was paid to leave a different district) is hired in another $1M dollar deal that won't be fulfilled.

Yes it's a mess. Yes something needs to be done. No, christie isn't doing it. He's a fraud.

Bret Schundler got elected as mayor of Jersey City. It was a complete dump. Broke beyond broke. He turned it around in one term and as a white male Republican got re-elected in a totally minority Democrat city. Picture a conservative white Republican getting elected and re-elected as may or Detroit and putting Detroit's books in the black. That's the kind of guy he is. A do-er, not a talker. Christie hired him as Commissioner of Education. Then he fired him a few months later :rolleyes:

WiskyT
02-14-2012, 17:45
Oh, and sorry for the rant. We are looking for a knight in armor conservative and that is all well and good, but christie aint it.

As for NJ, despite all of the stereotypes about it, 30 years ago it was a great place. Christine Todd Whitman did such a lousy job that the state really started to turn then. She also gave people a good reason to run away from the Republican party in NJ which left them at the mercy of the Democrats.

XPerties
02-14-2012, 18:45
I have family in glassboro, marlton and clayton area and I hope when it comes time to drop back in NJ for a visit they have passed the "National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act" by then, but I doubt it. :steamed:

fredj338
02-14-2012, 23:54
Except none of that is the fault of the employees in Nj despite christies class war against them. Police and FF in NJ pay 8.5% of their gross into the pension system. In the case of municipal workers, the town pays some amount too. Except whitman excused the towns from paying anything at all and all governors since continued the pratice. Then they borrowed against the pension funds that were left. So the emplyees paid in, nobody else did, and then the state raided the whole thing and now blame the only people who paid into the thing for wanting to get what is contractually owed to them.
red.

WWhaay! Consider tha no govt employee pays anything to SS. So for their 8.5%, they get a return of 55%-90% of their end salary for the rest of their life. I pay 7.5% into my ss, my emp,oyer another 7.5%, or when I was self employeed, I payed all of it. My return is about $1500/m! That is about 25% of my current salary. It's why defined benefits are not sustainable.
BTW, it IS the fault of the employees, 100%. They are the ones that negotiated for the contracts in the first place & refuse to renegotiate during hard times. I had to take a 40% pay cut over the last 2.5 yrs. Most govt employees are rioting over 10%! Sorry, not FF or LEO or teachers get my respect when they refuse to negotiate in good faith. There is no more money, they have bled the fat cow of the tax payer to death & now are reaping the results.
If you don't think I know what I am talking about, I worked a govt job for one year, a union job for 2, one quickly sees the faults in both systems once inside. A 6th grader w/ a crayon & napkin can figure out that you can't pay people 50-90% of their salary for the rest of their lives if all they put in is 8%. It's why SS is going broke & the return is less than 25% for many. Ok, rant over, carry on.:yawn:

GlockinNJ
02-15-2012, 04:58
I'm sorry, and while this may sound harsh, anyone who willingly gives up their natural, God given right to self defense, is stupid. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.

I think it's stupid to judge someone without first walking a mile in their shoes.

I was born and raised here - that was not my choice, it was my parents' choice. As an adult, I got a good job here and started raising a family in a great neighborhood. I was ignorant to NJ gun laws until I had already settled here. If you read my last post, you would see that many in NJ are not even aware of the gun laws here because it's just the environment we live in. Apparently, you can't grasp that.

Anyway, it's my home and I'm not leaving. I'd rather try to make it better.

Ajon412
02-15-2012, 15:10
The trooper was in error:

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 delineated the national off-duty concealed firearms carry rights and requirements for active sworn, and retired, law enforcement officers. Senate S.1132 and House H.R. 3752 were bills introduced in 2009 to amend the original LEOSA and make needed improvements.

Becoming Public Law No. 111-272 on 10/12/2010, the following changes to LEOSA went into effect:

Includes the carry of ammunition “not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act.” Federally legal ammunition, such as hollow-point bullets, can be carried where state law would normally prohibit it (i.e. New Jersey).


You're 1000% correct, but it's apparent that the NJSP didn't get the memo. Their website still has not been updated to reflect the change in FEDERAL LAW...:dunno:

WiskyT
02-15-2012, 20:50
WWhaay! Consider tha no govt employee pays anything to SS. So for their 8.5%, they get a return of 55%-90% of their end salary for the rest of their life. I pay 7.5% into my ss, my emp,oyer another 7.5%, or when I was self employeed, I payed all of it. My return is about $1500/m! That is about 25% of my current salary. It's why defined benefits are not sustainable.
BTW, it IS the fault of the employees, 100%. They are the ones that negotiated for the contracts in the first place & refuse to renegotiate during hard times. I had to take a 40% pay cut over the last 2.5 yrs. Most govt employees are rioting over 10%! Sorry, not FF or LEO or teachers get my respect when they refuse to negotiate in good faith. There is no more money, they have bled the fat cow of the tax payer to death & now are reaping the results.
If you don't think I know what I am talking about, I worked a govt job for one year, a union job for 2, one quickly sees the faults in both systems once inside. A 6th grader w/ a crayon & napkin can figure out that you can't pay people 50-90% of their salary for the rest of their lives if all they put in is 8%. It's why SS is going broke & the return is less than 25% for many. Ok, rant over, carry on.:yawn:


Fred, You need to learn the facts if you are going to argue this. Yes, public employees don't pay SS tax, AND THE DON"T GET SS! Any SS they get is based on employment before or after they are public employees

As for negotiating contracts, they WERE NEGOTIATED and then christie decided that the employer doesn't have to pay the negotiated compensation! So your boss agrees to pay you 1K a week and then pays you $800.00, are you going to tell me that a private sector employee would have to put up with that?

And you can't compare anything about private sector employment to police work. And I'm not just talking about the danger.

It's class warfare at it's worst and you are getting sucked in like an occupy wall st hippie.

As for the failing pension system in NJ, it HAD plenty of money. The money didn't dry up because retirees were drawing their pensions, it dried up because the employers haven't paid anything into for the last fifteen years and borrowed from it to fund the welfare state.

Like I said, property taxes have continued to rise under christie and his deficits are horrendous. Instead of cutting the actual waste from the STATE BUDGET which he is authorized to do, he screwed the public safety people and solved nothing.

BTW, he called the pension agreements that were in place a "sacred trust" and bashed them after taking office.

http://www.pfanj.org/news/images/christieletter.jpg

Brasso
02-15-2012, 20:54
If you read my last post, you would see that many in NJ are not even aware of the gun laws here because it's just the environment we live in. Apparently, you can't grasp that.

No, I grasp it just fine. That's the problem. I'm not including Americans in my description of New Jersey's population. Just the ones who don't know they're subjects of the state.

There is absolutely no excuse for an American citizen to put up with the socialist tactics of a state like New Jersey. The fact that there are enough people in that state, so blind to their rights, that they don't even know they don't have any, is why this country is ultimately doomed. Hell, over half of this country voted for a muslim communist for President!?!?!?!?!?!?! They are STUPID with a capital R for Retarded.

cadillacguns
02-16-2012, 03:10
Had this young man in a training class here in Indiana, on his way to an assignment in Wyoming. Jewish Jersey Boy whatever that means he had not grown up near guns, never had any hunting experience, never fired one, never served in the military, nix, nein, nada, nothing gun newbie. He was here two months..............Indiana's gun laws blew him away, he went to Wyoming (Rock Springs) to get an apartment and settle in. Well he did just that, bought a Jeep, a Glock and an AR in one week!!! Not a resident yet by a long shot, how he did it before moving there was beyond me, but i guess the folks in Rock Springs sure helped him out, traded his 2 door sedan for a Jeep, leased a years unfurnished appartment, bought a Glock-23, and an AR. Left those things and whatever he had in his trunk in the apartment, drove back to Indy in the Jeep, finished training and took off for a new life in America. You talk about culture shock!?! he was from Trenton, good kid, bet he has a cowboy hat by now too.

GlockinNJ
02-16-2012, 06:35
Had this young man in a training class here in Indiana, on his way to an assignment in Wyoming. Jewish Jersey Boy whatever that means he had not grown up near guns, never had any hunting experience, never fired one, never served in the military, nix, nein, nada, nothing gun newbie. He was here two months..............Indiana's gun laws blew him away, he went to Wyoming (Rock Springs) to get an apartment and settle in. Well he did just that, bought a Jeep, a Glock and an AR in one week!!! Not a resident yet by a long shot, how he did it before moving there was beyond me, but i guess the folks in Rock Springs sure helped him out, traded his 2 door sedan for a Jeep, leased a years unfurnished appartment, bought a Glock-23, and an AR. Left those things and whatever he had in his trunk in the apartment, drove back to Indy in the Jeep, finished training and took off for a new life in America. You talk about culture shock!?! he was from Trenton, good kid, bet he has a cowboy hat by now too.

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!! I believe inside every Jersey boy is a cowboy. OK, maybe not every Jersey boy, but lots of us. I was born and raised in Trenton too. I discovered pistols late in life and I lOVE THEM. One day I hope to have a sexy Colt SAA - YEE-HA!!

Seriously, NJ-born residents are gun lovers just like every other American living in a "free" state, but they may just not know it yet.

That's why I defend NJ against all the bashing here on GT. Instead of calling us idiots, you should all be encouraging love of firearms to NJ residents. The NJ politicians may be anti-gun, but they don't represent many many citizens! NJ is a polarized mix of hard-working conservative gun-loving tax-paying Americans in some towns and slacker welfare recipients in others. Don't make the mistake of lumping us all together.

There is a lively gun culture in NJ. GT: PLEASE help us cultivate it, don't act snobbish and stomp all over NJ because some politicians and whacko citizens are anti-gun. We are in a continual fight for our rights - help us, don't turn away from us.

Obi Wan
02-16-2012, 10:43
WiskyT, NJ is in the condition it's in because the Dems have been running that state for decades. They've got nobody to blame but themselves.

WiskyT
02-16-2012, 17:36
WiskyT, NJ is in the condition it's in because the Dems have been running that state for decades. They've got nobody to blame but themselves.

By and large, yes. And I am a Republican. BUT, whitman sucked and she is the kind of Republican that blurs the lines between R and D. Poor performing Republicans make the independents default to their D leanings. At the end of christie's first term, there will be no improvement in NJ and that will leave the door open for a D governor.

When Bret Schundler ran, I volunteered for his campaign. There was ZERO Republican support for him because the state R machine was pushing Forester who had looser written all over him. When Schundler got the nomination, he was completely abandoned by the party. He might as well been and independent. The Republican party is a joke in NJ and it leaves the residents at the mercy of the democrats.

WiskyT
02-16-2012, 17:39
NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!! I believe inside every Jersey boy is a cowboy. OK, maybe not every Jersey boy, but lots of us. I was born and raised in Trenton too. I discovered pistols late in life and I lOVE THEM. One day I hope to have a sexy Colt SAA - YEE-HA!!

Seriously, NJ-born residents are gun lovers just like every other American living in a "free" state, but they may just not know it yet.

That's why I defend NJ against all the bashing here on GT. Instead of calling us idiots, you should all be encouraging love of firearms to NJ residents. The NJ politicians may be anti-gun, but they don't represent many many citizens! NJ is a polarized mix of hard-working conservative gun-loving tax-paying Americans in some towns and slacker welfare recipients in others. Don't make the mistake of lumping us all together.

There is a lively gun culture in NJ. GT: PLEASE help us cultivate it, don't act snobbish and stomp all over NJ because some politicians and whacko citizens are anti-gun. We are in a continual fight for our rights - help us, don't turn away from us.


I was a member of the NJ gun culture for decades and I agree. There are lots of guns in NJ and many clubs including IDPA etc.

Obi Wan
02-16-2012, 17:43
WiskyT, I spent enough time there (South Jersey) to understand what you're saying, and agree.

Good luck!

fredj338
02-16-2012, 17:47
Fred, You need to learn the facts if you are going to argue this. Yes, public employees don't pay SS tax, AND THE DON"T GET SS! Any SS they get is based on employment before or after they are public employees

As for negotiating contracts, they WERE NEGOTIATED and then christie decided that the employer doesn't have to pay the negotiated compensation! So your boss agrees to pay you 1K a week and then pays you $800.00, are you going to tell me that a private sector employee would have to put up with that?
]
No T, you didn't read or understand my post. I understand that they receive no ss based on their govt employement. Still, they get 2-4 times return on what they pay in. You did not address the discrepancy between that & failing ss. Remember, contract or not, that is the tax payers money. The tax payer should NOT be held responsible for the govt employees life long retirement. That is not class warfare just simple economics. When you have more not working thatn those paying the bills, you go broke, look @ Greece, we are next.
Look, it's coming apart all across the country. I don't care what position you are in, you do NOT deserve a life long 50%-90% pension on my tax dime when all I get is a chitty 25% return on my retirement money (soc sec).
Did you miss the part where I had to take a 40% paycut to keep my job?? Yes, private sector guys get screwed all the time. It's free market, you accept the shaft or move on. When the economy is bad, you have no place to move on. I could have taken another job for half the money & more hours, that would have been stupid.
So sorry, you are the one w/o facts my friend. The private sector drives the public sector. THAT is what ALL govt employees have forgotten in their entitlement mentality. Without a strong private sector economy, there is no money for the slushy govt workers to grab. There is no money, so the result w/o renegotiation is fire people. I can do without every single govt employee; yep, fire, police, certainly teachers, DMV, name it & the private sector can do a better job for half the fee. Govt employees have become the elite in many states. There is not ONE single govt job that should pay more than a private sector equiv. After all, again, they are supposed to work for us. It would be like my boss paying me more than he pays himself to do the same job, that is stupid!:wow: SO got employees are digging their own financial graves by pushing the issue & few in the private sector have any sympathy. Look how many have been out of work for more than 18m, criminal. Thank a liberal for this, they all have the same "I want something for nothing" mentality & that is killing our country.

rockabillyrider
02-16-2012, 17:59
For close to thirty years my feeling towards that strip of sand between the Delaware River and the Atlantic Ocean has only been good for one thing, riding dirt bikes. Now the state went and messed that up as well.

Where's a good tsunami when you need one?

WiskyT
02-16-2012, 18:22
No T, you didn't read or understand my post. U inderstand that they receive no ss based on their govt employement, Still, they get 2-4 times return on what they pay in. You did not address the discrepqancy. Remember, contract or not, that is the tax payers money. The tax payer should NOT be held responsible for the govt employees life long retirement. That is not class warfare just simple economics.
Look, it's coming apart all across the country. I don't care what position you are in, you do NOT deserve a life long 50%-90% pension on my tax dime when all I get is a chitty 25% return on my retirement money (soc sec).
Did yo umiss the part wherd I had to take a 40% paycut to keep my job?? Yes, private sector guys get screwed all the time. it's free market, you accept the shaft or move on. When the economy is bad, you have no palce to move on. I could have taken another job for half the money & more hours. that would have been stupid. So sorry, you are the one w/o facts my friend. The private sector drives the public sector. THAT is what ALL govt employees have forgotten in their entitlement mentality. There is no money, so the result w/o renegotiation is fire people. I can do without every single govt employee; yep, fire, police, certainly teachers, DMV, name it & I can do better job for half the fee. Govt employees have become the elite in many states. There is not ONE single govt job that should pay more than a private sector equiv. After all, again, they are supposed to work for us. It would be like my boss paying me more than he pays himself!:wow:

Fred, you are mixing two different things. There is the compensation for the job done, and then there is the money already earned that is being confiscated. If the cops and FF are being paid too much, then the municipalities can offer them less compensation. Why don't they do that? I'll tell you why, because they won't get qualified applicants. NYC has had to scrap entire academy classes just prior to graduation because there weren't enough people left to continue the training. They get paid garbage in NYC and they can't get suitable people for the job.

The other issue is money already earned. Fair or not, I was forced to pay 8.5% of every dollar I earned. I took my pension, and have been retired for several years, and NOW my pension is being cut! The pension isn't some kind of gift from the people of NJ to me, it is DEFERRED COMPENSATION. Now some of it is SEIZED COMPENSATION.

Here is another more clear example of what christie is doing. Where I worked, I got 15 sick days a year. Is that too much? Maybe, and the town could have negotiated for less, but they offered it in lieu of other things and that's the way it was. Now if I took a sick day, I was harassed to the point of having IA literally looking in my window. That is a violation of the criminal code BTW. Would you have to put up with that in the private sector? If your HR people peeked in your windows while you were out sick you'd get a nice civil award. If a cop peeked in your window without cause, that cop would be subject to criminal prosecution. But not when it's done to a cop. You are on your own. Anyway, if you don't use the sick time, you keep it and can draw it as cash when you retire. Our particular contract limited that to $12,000.00. So, book out sick and you are subject to harrassment. Don't book out sick and you can take the money. So people banked their sick time. Now christie is on the verge of passing legislation that would prohibit you from taking the cash that you already earned! Why doesn't he take some equity out of peoples' houses or their savings accounts while he is at it?

And the best part is, now all the cops are banging out sick to use up the time they have banked for years. They put "no trespassing" signs on their lawns so that IA clowns can be charged for entering the property and then the cops burn their time. So the towns have to hire OT to fill the slots which is killing the taxpayers. Also, the guys who have a couple of years left to retire are sucking up all of that OT to increase their final compensation which their pension is based on. Christie is just costing the towns more money with his tirade against cops and FF. He's a fatass wannabe tough guy who acts like he's cracking down on something, when in reality he is just making a lot of hot air and making things worse.

If he wanted to actually fix the problem, and not just pick a fight, he wouldn't have made the changes in the pension and medical bennies retroactive to people who have been in the system for decades or have already retired from it. He could have made any changes effect future hires.

In my analogy about getting paid $800.00 when you had an agreement to be paid $1,000.00, I'm talking about AFTER you did the work. Did your pay cut require you to give money back you already earned, or was it for future work you do? When you agree to pay a plumber $1,000.00 to fix your house, and he does the work, do you write him a check for $800.00 and then badmouth him? Would you be able to get away with that or would he get a judgement against you?

And you talk real tough about not needing public safety people, wait until you are drooling out of one side of your mouth because you just had a stroke. Tell it to the FF who is working on you that you don't need him. Or are you somehow going to avoid the health problems that all people face?

Funny you talk about firing people. My dept laid off 8 guys. They were quickly hired by better depts. Now my dept wanted to hire them back because of all the mass retirements that christie caused. Those guys told them to pound salt. So the dept has to hire new guys and spend about $100,000.00 each just to get them to the level of "rookie". The mayor got so pissed about that, he had a tantrum and refused to hire anyone. So now the OT bill is exploding which costs the taxpayers even more money. Unlike the private sector, public safety doesn't have a decrease in demand just because the economy is in the toilet. Call volume is actually up, and there are less bodies to field the calls. Way to go!

BuckyP
02-16-2012, 19:12
When Bret Schundler ran, I volunteered for his campaign. There was ZERO Republican support for him because the state R machine was pushing Forester who had looser written all over him. When Schundler got the nomination, he was completely abandoned by the party. He might as well been and independent. The Republican party is a joke in NJ and it leaves the residents at the mercy of the democrats.


I remember that. Total outrage, the Rs would rather let the Dems win than support Bret.

btj
02-18-2012, 08:19
Well

He is not moving to NJ buy choice his job is transferring him there for he thinks at least 5 yrs.
I am not going to tell him what I am hearing just yet but he will not be happy I am sure.
He will be in newark I believe. He makes about 150 to 175 a yr so I am sure he will find away to make it 4 or 5 yrs.:dunno:
Not for nothing, but if he's working in Newark, he could actually live in SW Connecticut, NY state (other than NYC), or Pennsylvania. The commute to Newark will suck, regardless of just about anywhere he's living, but at least with any of these other options, more sensible firearms laws, regarding carry and ownership, will apply, first and foremost being the ability to actually obtain a permit.

diamondd2
02-18-2012, 12:28
Not for nothing, but if he's working in Newark, he could actually live in SW Connecticut, NY state (other than NYC), or Pennsylvania. The commute to Newark will suck, regardless of just about anywhere he's living, but at least with any of these other options, more sensible firearms laws, regarding carry and ownership, will apply, first and foremost being the ability to actually obtain a permit.


It does not matter where he lives because he will not to be able carry into NJ anyway. Might as well live as close as possible. Newark is the 2nd worse city in NJ as far a crime/shootings/murder goes (Camden, NJ is #1).

He will however be allowed to keep a gun in his NJ house/apartment.

Some nice places to live that are close to Newark -- Nutley, Lyndhurst, Rutherford, North Arlington and further North. Stay away from --Belleville, Kearny, Harrison.

WiskyT
02-18-2012, 14:15
It does not matter where he lives because he will not to be able carry into NJ anyway. Might as well live as close as possible. Newark is the 2nd worse city in NJ as far a crime/shootings/murder goes (Camden, NJ is #1).

He will however be allowed to keep a gun in his NJ house/apartment.

Some nice places to live that are close to Newark -- Nutley, Lyndhurst, Rutherford, North Arlington and further North. Stay away from --Belleville, Kearny, Harrison.

Belleville isn't bad. Some of the west Essex towns are tolerable like Livingston and Roseland, the Caldwells, but they are pricey. Stay out of West Orange and Montclair, expensive and your car WILL be broken into three times a year and your home burgled at least once a year. Maplwood might as well be Irvington the only difference is it costs more.

Union County has some decent options like Cranford.

DrtyHarry
02-18-2012, 14:46
Living in NJ now....HATE it. Searching for a job anywhere out of this awful state. Yes, born and raised in NJ. We are not even allowed to pump our own gas here....just great, especially when looking for a gas station that's open late at night. I'm ready to move in a heartbeat.



Harry

glockpsych
02-18-2012, 14:52
NJ SUCKS, SO DOES NY/LI/NYC. Very happy I left.

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glockpsych
02-18-2012, 14:58
We are not even allowed to pump our own gas here...Harry

Lol

In NY the govt didn't trust us enough to use the clip on the gas pump handle. They've all been removed! So even on the most frigid of days you have to stand there and hold the handle to pump your gas. Thanks, Albany.

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fredj338
02-18-2012, 22:56
The other issue is money already earned. Fair or not, I was forced to pay 8.5% of every dollar I earned. I took my pension, and have been retired for several years, and NOW my pension is being cut! The pension isn't some kind of gift from the people of NJ to me, it is DEFERRED COMPENSATION. Now some of it is SEIZED COMPENSATION.
Way to go!

Well I tend to agree, if you are retired, you should get what you paid into & were promised BUT, consider the forced arrangement of SS that the private sector employees are stuck w/. I can guaranteee you it will NOT be there for those paying into it today, contract broken. At some point, when you are payed too much for too long the money just runs out.
I know public employees don't want to here it but if you are unwilling to renogiate some, you are all going to lose big. Again, having worked private sector, union & govt jobs, I know that there are no free lunches. There is no way you can sustain a 50-90% retirement payout by paying in 8%, Just not gonna happen.
Simple math T. Pay in say 8% of $100K for 25yrs. That is a mere $200K. Say investments hold & it triples, $600K is what you have payed in & earned. Now take a measly 60% (remember, ss gives back about 25%) & you are blowing thru "your" money in just 10yrs! SO who pays after that? THe tax payer & they pay big as most people are retiring around 50-55 & living to 75. It has to change or the system collapses. Private sector figured this out decades ago, no more defined benefit packages, everything is 401K. We won't even talk about the cost of health care bennies.
I doubt the story of not getting good apps. Out here, a FF or LEO job opens up & there are 10K people applying for 10 jobs. Must not suck that bad if 10K people want to do it. Both jobs are jobs of desire with skills learned as you go, not hard to find good people at all. You know as well as I it's about ALL the govt employees, the slackers like DMV, transportation, office staff, etc, the ones that require 3 or 4-1 vs the same private sector job. They have the same lavish pay & benefits that have far surpassed private sector & still straining the budgets. GOne are the days of low paying public jobs w/ good benefits. Now they are ridiclulous paying jobs w/ even more ridiculous benefits. Really, you don't see Greece coming around the corner?
Again, without a strong private sector, there is no public sector. If times are tough & I have to take a 40% pay cut, then I see no reason for the public sector to not take hits as well. We know why that isn't happening, it's the bloody foolish unions. It's Obama propping up the states w/ bail out money. IT does & will end, the shape that end takes really is in the poublic sector employees hands, but you have to tell your union's to take a hike or you'll all lose, including the retired. Once municipalities start declaring bankrupcy, your benefit package isn't worth the paper it was written on. Sad but increasingly true.:dunno:

WiskyT
02-19-2012, 06:55
Well I tend to agree, if you are retired, you should get what you paid into & were promised BUT, consider the forced arrangement of SS that the private sector employees are stuck w/. I can guaranteee you it will NOT be there for those paying into it today, contract broken. At some point, when you are payed too much for too long the money just runs out.
I know public employees don't want to here it but if you are unwilling to renogiate some, you are all going to lose big. Again, having worked private sector, union & govt jobs, I know that there are no free lunches. There is no way you can sustain a 50-90% retirement payout by paying in 8%, Just not gonna happen.
Simple math T. Pay in say 8% of $100K for 25yrs. That is a mere $200K. Say investments hold & it triples, $600K is what you have payed in & earned. Now take a measly 60% (remember, ss gives back about 25%) & you are blowing thru "your" money in just 10yrs! SO who pays after that? THe tax payer & they pay big as most people are retiring around 50-55 & living to 75. It has to change or the system collapses. Private sector figured this out decades ago, no more defined benefit packages, everything is 401K. We won't even talk about the cost of health care bennies.
I doubt the story of not getting good apps. Out here, a FF or LEO job opens up & there are 10K people applying for 10 jobs. Must not suck that bad if 10K people want to do it. Both jobs are jobs of desire with skills learned as you go, not hard to find good people at all. You know as well as I it's about ALL the govt employees, the slackers like DMV, transportation, office staff, etc, the ones that require 3 or 4-1 vs the same private sector job. They have the same lavish pay & benefits that have far surpassed private sector & still straining the budgets. GOne are the days of low paying public jobs w/ good benefits. Now they are ridiclulous paying jobs w/ even more ridiculous benefits. Really, you don't see Greece coming around the corner?
Again, without a strong private sector, there is no public sector. If times are tough & I have to take a 40% pay cut, then I see no reason for the public sector to not take hits as well. We know why that isn't happening, it's the bloody foolish unions. It's Obama propping up the states w/ bail out money. IT does & will end, the shape that end takes really is in the poublic sector employees hands, but you have to tell your union's to take a hike or you'll all lose, including the retired. Once municipalities start declaring bankrupcy, your benefit package isn't worth the paper it was written on. Sad but increasingly true.:dunno:

As far as filling positions, for FF there will always be plenty of people due to the schedule, typically 24 on and 72 off. You can be a FF two days a week and remodel kitchens. Of course christie would change their schedule because it's not fair to all the people who work 5 and 2 in the civilian world:upeyes: I can hear him now "Those FF fatcats get to have 4 days a week to ride their polo ponies and fly around in their corporate jets while patriotic Americans have to drive into the office and sit in a cubicle every day!"

When you cut the pay and get rid of the pension, you get ****birds only taking the job. I've seen it with my own two eyes in towns that don't pay as well as others, and you can read all about NYPD's recruitment problems. In Charlotte, their pay was below many other cities and cities like Nashville were literally setting up recruiting stations in Charlotte and taking their people. It was covered on the local news about 8 years ago and CMPD had to quickly raise it's pay to keeps it's people. Nashville had the same situation a few years before.

As far as willing to negotiate, yeah , if the individual towns negotiated lower pay, I'm sure we'd all be hearing about how all the cops are going to starve etc. BUT, the towns and state could have done it and made it apply to future earnings or employees and it at least would have been legal. But he didn't do that. He passed laws to just declare money that was yours is now not yours.

As far as bankruptcy, let the towns declare it. The receivers would continiue to pay the cops and FF what they have coming to them, they would get rid of the deadbeats like "public information officer" at 150K a year (who happens to be the mayors mistress). Did the town I worked and lived in, with a population of 45K need a public info officer? Why couldn't the mayor answer questions himself. Then we had a police chief at 175K AND a police director at 150K for a 110 man department! Never mind all of the captains and deputy chiefs.

So yeah, cut budgets, hell slash them, but do it right. Have you ever noticed how pols always lay off FF first? They get rid of the people who could literally stop the world from burning down before they even consider getting rid of the guy that prunes the trees.

fredj338
02-19-2012, 10:07
So yeah, cut budgets, hell slash them, but do it right. Have you ever noticed how pols always lay off FF first? They get rid of the people who could literally stop the world from burning down before they even consider getting rid of the guy that prunes the trees.

Come on T, you are smarter than that. The reason they go after FF & LE & teachers first, is it is meant to pull at the heart strings of the tax payer. PLus the guys writing their own checks aren't going to offer to cut their own. IMO, fire them all & start over. From the top down, all govt employees are over payed for what little sevice most provide. It doesn't do the argument any good that we have to pay more to get better when you see the almost daily poor performance of ALL govt employees @ every level.
Watching a Tenn fire crew sit by while a families house burns down because they hadn't payedtheir "special tax", tell me that wasn't political? Checked the average HS graduation rate lately? Yeah, teachers doing lots of good work there. Same for LE too, there are far more screw ups than I think justifies their pretty lavish pensions.
Yep, private sector has it's share of screw ups, but guess what, they get fired. Union & govt, yeah, not so much. Not all, but too many at all levels are just collecting a paycheck & getting thru to their 25 & retire. There is a huge paradigm shift coming, the private sector has seen it & is dealing with it. The govt, as usual, is slow to respond until the crisis comes & oh many is it coming.
When the govts file for bankruptcy, they no longer will pay your pension or anyone elses. They'll restructure those ridiculous contracts & get back to sanity. It will end up costing all the retired & current workers & all because the current workers will NOT negotiate. Kalif is one of the worst states, total corruption between the unions & the govt. SO when the teachers were told to take a pawltr 5% pay cut to keep their jobs, htey refused & so they lay teachers off. Sure, they should fire the admins, hell stop paying the legislature, but govt workers need to wake TFU & see they have a pretty good thing going & stop trying to kill the goose that is laying those golden eggs. That is what is happening al over the country, hell all over the world. Govt employees make nothing, do not provide the economic engine that runs things. They are benefactos OF the private sectors creativity & economic drive. They need to understand it before ther is nothing left. We are already @ a point in this country where 50% of ALL jobs are held by some form of govt controlled entity. Consider they make no revenue only spend it, that is just not sustainable.
You aren't any diff than any other govt employee about this subject. They all believe they "pay their fair share" & they don't. They all want to believe they aren't payed enough for the meger jobs most of them do. The math is rigth there, run the numbers, it's not really debateable.:dunno:

WiskyT
02-19-2012, 10:21
Come on T, you are smarter than that. The reason they go after FF & LE & teachers first, is it is meant to pull at the heart strings of the tax payer. PLus the guys writing their own checks aren't going to offer to cut their own. IMO, fire them all & start over. From the top down, all govt employees are over payed for what little sevice most provide. It doesn't do the argument any good that we have to pay more to get better when you see the almost daily poor performance of ALL govt employees @ every level.
Watching a Tenn fire crew sit by while a families house burns down because they hadn't payedtheir "special tax", tell me that wasn't political? Checked the average HS graduation rate lately? Yeah, teachers doing lots of good work there. Same for LE too, there are far more screw ups than I think justifies their pretty lavish pensions.
Yep, private sector has it's share of screw ups, but guess what, they get fired. Union & govt, yeah, not so much. Not all, but too many at all levels are just collecting a paycheck & getting thru to their 25 & retire. There is a huge paradigm shift coming, the private sector has seen it & is dealing with it. The govt, as usual, is slow to respond until the crisis comes & oh many is it coming.
When the govts file for bankruptcy, they no longer will pay your pension or anyone elses. They'll restructure those ridiculous contracts & get back to sanity. It will end up costing all the retired & current workers & all because the current workers will NOT negotiate. Kalif is one of the worst states, total corruption between the unions & the govt. SO when the teachers were told to take a pawltr 5% pay cut to keep their jobs, htey refused & so they lay teachers off. Sure, they should fire the admins, hell stop paying the legislature, but govt workers need to wake TFU & see they have a pretty good thing going & stop trying to kill the goose that is laying those golden eggs. That is what is happening al over the country, hell all over the world. Govt employees make nothing, do not provide the economic engine that runs things. They are benefactos OF the private sectors creativity & economic drive. They need to understand it before ther is nothing left. We are already @ a point in this country where 50% of ALL jobs are held by some form of govt controlled entity. Consider they make no revenue only spend it, that is just not sustainable.
You aren't any diff than any other govt employee about this subject. They all believe they "pay their fair share" & they don't. They all want to believe they aren't payed enough for the meger jobs most of them do. The math is rigth there, run the numbers, it's not really debateable.:dunno:

Right, the kids don't graduate in the inner city becuae the teachers didn't feed them, cloth them, and keep their knees together! Now who is the nanny stater? The teacher teaches the class, the kid isn't even there, and it's the teacher's fault.

As for the cops, the reason you see them sitting around is because that is all they allowed to do. No chases, no use of force, no "poor demeanor". So I did exactly what I was ordered to do, nothing, because when I ignored that order, I was getting IA'd every week to the point that no one would even roll on my calls because they would have to write too. So that's the cop's fault that the admin pukes, the AG's office, the politicians put out written orders not to do police work. And on the rare occasion that a cop ignores those orders, the prosecutor's office refuses to prosecute the case. And when the case gets prosecuted and the jusry convicts, the judge sentences the guy to time served. That's all the cops' fault to right? CA is letting all of it's nicer criminals out of jail, and that is the cops' fault too I guess.

Cut the cops' pay becuase yours got cut. Never mind that it has nothing to do with the problem at hand, as long as it is their "fiar share", then it will make you feel better. Funny, the term "fair share" is right out of bho's class warfare playbook, and it mirros christie's, and your, position. You even used the same terminoligy.

Might as well blame the USBP guards for the illegals that the fed govt lets in too.

WiskyT
02-19-2012, 10:39
As for 5% paycuts, yeah, okay. CA can cut their pay and if the unions block it, then the courts should handle it. NJ is a different situation. The guys where I worked are now paying 7.5% of their pay into the state health benefits program and my dept opted out of it! They are paying a tax effectively. It would be like CA putting a user fee amounting to 7.5% of your gross pay for use of the state's agriculture dept and only putting it on you, who doesn't even use it.

Like I said, cut things, but do it right. From what I can tell, Scott Walker and Mitch Daniels did it right. So did Bret Schundler. They also didn't make it a point to insult and literally yell at every single person the encounter. I can tell you from personal knowledge that Schundler is a gentleman. He is a well educated, class act who solved problems and was praised by liberal inner-city dwellers. That's called leadership. Christie ain't got it. He's a fat, obnoxious business as usual politician. Find out who "Big Steve" Adubato is and see how close chritie is to him. He's an old school chicago style democrat that runs Essex County and he's chrities patron.

stopatrain
02-19-2012, 10:55
Sorry for his loss. Good luck.

Coffee Dog
02-19-2012, 11:38
Ammo Ban being considered in New Jersey by N.J.
Assembly Committee to Ban AMMO & More---

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/31510-nj-assembly-committee-to-consider-ammo-ban-more/

fredj338
02-19-2012, 12:15
Cut the cops' pay becuase yours got cut. Never mind that it has nothing to do with the problem at hand, as long as it is their "fiar share", then it will make you feel better. Funny, the term "fair share" is right out of bho's class warfare playbook, and it mirros christie's, and your, position. You even used the same terminoligy.

Might as well blame the USBP guards for the illegals that the fed govt lets in too.

My point exactly! The libs are screaming fair share from the tax payers while they over pay their voting base, unions & govt employees, to get their votes! Sorry, many people on the inside, especially those that have never worked real jobs where you are accountable for some level of performance daily, just don't get. Like the OWS crowd; "hey I showed up every day, where is my check"? It has to stop or it all collapses. Bottom line, we can all do w/ less govt @ every level.
You make admin excuses for why govt employees do NOT do their jobs, but it comes down to the individual, always. Band together & go to management & get it changed. No, instead, the vast majority take the simple/easy way out & blame admin for why they aren't accountable for their performance. Yeah, it's the admin & parents, not the teachers. The teachers could change that. Yeah, it's admin not the individual LEO or FF that won't buck the system because they are afraid of losing their cushy jobs. I get that, but don't act like the rank & file have their hands tied, they CHOOSE the simple & easy. It's why the system is so screwed up. Yeah, I quit my govt job because I couldn't stand being told to "slow down, you are making us look bad". A mindset that permiates ALL govt sectors @ ALL levels. Trrust me, change is coming & you won't like it & the public won't feel sorry for you.
No govt employee came to my rescue when my company cut hours. I actually produce something everyday, measureable work that leads to add'l. job creation in the economy. The vast majority of public workers are consumers of revenue not makers of revenue. They all forget that they work FOR US, not us for them. That has been lost over the decades but is coming back around & will seriously bite all govt workers in their butts. To ignore that is just putting your head in the sand. Even my dad, retired LEO, saw it here when they went to a 90% gauranteed pension for new hires. Even a 4th grader w/ a crayon can figure out that paying people the same amount to not work as to work is NOT sustainable, not anywhere in the world. Again, look @ Europe, it's basically socialism; taking form the money producers & giving to the money consumers (govt employees). Wake up T, things are going to change, like it or not, but the employees are 100% responsible thru their unions for this mess. I have yet to hear ANYINE say "no I don't want or deserve a pay raise & more benefits". Yeah, it is directly the rsponse of employees thru their unions that have gotten the entire country into theis mess.:whistling:

btj
02-19-2012, 21:24
It does not matter where he lives because he will not to be able carry into NJ anyway. Might as well live as close as possible. Newark is the 2nd worse city in NJ as far a crime/shootings/murder goes (Camden, NJ is #1).

He will however be allowed to keep a gun in his NJ house/apartment.

Some nice places to live that are close to Newark -- Nutley, Lyndhurst, Rutherford, North Arlington and further North. Stay away from --Belleville, Kearny, Harrison.

Yes, I understand that he won't be able to carry in NJ. My point was that, by living in one of the surrounding states, he would be able to carry for the rest of the time, if so desired.

fredj338
02-20-2012, 09:24
Yes, I understand that he won't be able to carry in NJ. My point was that, by living in one of the surrounding states, he would be able to carry for the rest of the time, if so desired.

I have heard mere possession of JHP & the gun together outside the home is illegal?:dunno: If so, could pose a problem on the way to another state. Kind of like high cap mags here.

barth
02-20-2012, 09:43
Hi

My wife's Nephew is being transfered to NJ for his job.
When he cked into getting a carry permit there he was told he could not carry HP's.

He carries a g23 and he will now carry 180 gr FMJ/FN do any of you carry that instead of HP'S?

Nobody in their right mind carries FMJ for SD.
If that's the law, then you've got no options.
I'd switch to .45 for sure!

CanyonMan
02-20-2012, 11:07
Moving to NJ - MISTAKE! I escaped many years ago and hate to go back to see friends and family.

Seagulls? Do you know why they fly upside down over NJ?
There is nothing there worth pooping on!!!:upeyes:


Hey man.. I didn't know you are former "Danged Yankee.." :tongueout:



Long time no see amigo. Hope all is well. :)



OP, If I "had to use" FMJFP's in the 40 cal... I would. Hey, It's their law NOT your Realitives.. Whatever happens He is only obeying the law set forth there.

Good luck to him !









CM

btj
02-21-2012, 22:50
I have heard mere possession of JHP & the gun together outside the home is illegal?:dunno: If so, could pose a problem on the way to another state. Kind of like high cap mags here.

Which is why I suggested living elsewhere, but within a reasonable commuting distance to NJ. :supergrin: Won't be able to carry to work, but will be able to carry in the home state.

diamondd2
02-22-2012, 04:42
Ammo Ban being considered in New Jersey by N.J.
Assembly Committee to Ban AMMO & More---

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/31510-nj-assembly-committee-to-consider-ammo-ban-more/

It was struck down.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

diamondd2
02-22-2012, 04:43
I have heard mere possession of JHP & the gun together outside the home is illegal?:dunno: If so, could pose a problem on the way to another state. Kind of like high cap mags here.

You are allowed to transport HP ammo to the range to shoot.

Just make sure the gun is not loaded with it. Or any ammo.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

diamondd2
02-22-2012, 04:47
Yes, I understand that he won't be able to carry in NJ. My point was that, by living in one of the surrounding states, he would be able to carry for the rest of the time, if so desired.

The closest commute to a very gun friendly state is PA which is 70-80 mls to Newark. An hour drive at 70mph both ways gets old fast. Better off just hanging out in PA on the weekends because his carry permit is recongnized there.

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pag23
02-22-2012, 18:19
have fun in the "People's Republic" of NJ......:tongueout:

You are better off living in one of the border towns of PA..... depending on where the job in NJ is.