Armor piercing ammunition.... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 11:16
IMHO, the more sophisticated bad guys these days sometimes wear armor/kevlar. I read a story a while back where these home invaders were wearing kevlar vests while they did what they came to do. If I was a BG and I was robbing homes and committing various crimes, I'd probably want some body protection. I have also heard that the hard core gang bangers wear vests all the time, according to a LEO friend of mine in NY and in LA (especially LA).

So if all these BGs are now wearing vests, how effective are center mass shots coming from a 9mm or even a .45? Slow him down a little? Some 9mm rounds have been reported to bounce off denim and thick leather jackets.

What's your opinion on AP loads available to the public? I see many pros and cons. I'm not a fan of having Uncle Sam tell me what kind of gun or bullets I am allowed to use. What say you?



Harry

WoodenPlank
02-14-2012, 11:37
AP loads in a handgun are illegal under federal law. While there may be a way to get loads that will penetrate soft armor that aren't "armor piercing" under federal law, I wouldn't risk it.

9mm bouncing off denim or leather jackets sounds like hogwash to me. 9mm JHP can become CLOGGED through thick clothing, but ALL calibers of JHP can do that.

If you are worried about BGs in soft armor, have a carbine in easy reach. Soft armor will not stop 5.56, 7.62x39, or 5.45 ball.

Bob Hafler
02-14-2012, 11:53
12ga. #2 buckshot to the head area and you won't have to worry about what there wearing. I haven't heard one case of a BG wearing body armor in my area. Heck I haven't even heard of that stuff going on in Philly and the BG body count there is pileing up there more everyday.

WoodenPlank
02-14-2012, 12:15
12ga. #2 buckshot to the head area and you won't have to worry about what there wearing. I haven't heard one case of a BG wearing body armor in my area. Heck I haven't even heard of that stuff going on in Philly and the BG body count there is pileing up there more everyday.

I'd imagine that the BGs in armor are the ones that don't wind up dead in their victim's house. If nobody shoots the perp, most people would never be able to tell they hard armor on unless they didn't bother to hide it.

As a side note, head shots are a lot more difficult to make against a determined, mobile opponent. They usually don't stand still to give you a clean shot. Aim COM. If you're really worried about BGs in armor, I'll reiterate my earlier advice - use a carbine.

CarryTexas
02-14-2012, 12:20
Practice Failure drills...

Two COM and One to the head...

Even with body armor on the two COM is going to hurt and will slow them down long enough for the head shot to stop them...

DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 12:28
Shotguns and high power carbines would work well, but not when I leave the house. I understand that using AP rounds in public areas can be very dangerous, as it's one of it's cons.

I can't very well keep my Saiga 12, AK, or AR in my trunk everywhere I go. I understand that AP loads are illegal, I just feel as it should be my choice to use them or not. I think the law of banning AP rounds to the public was because only LEOs had vests way back when. But now that the BGs have vests, maybe the law should be looked over once again. I now find myself practicing head shots on paper targets.

As for the 9mm bouncing off denim and thick leather jackets, I've read reports on the net and I have also heard the same thing from LEOs. Same thing with windshields.



Harry

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
02-14-2012, 12:31
As plank mentioned, 9mm will not "bounce off" leather or denim. There is a danger that JHP ammo, be it 9mm, .40, .45 or anything else will become clogged when going through thick clothing, possibly resulting it it failing to expand properly and behaving more like an FMJ round.

As far as your concerns about body armor go, thats just another reason why I choose an AR for HD duty

Nakanokalronin
02-14-2012, 12:34
The surplus 7.62x25 ball round was tested on some vests and seemed to go through pretty well. I don't remember if it was a IIA or IIIA vest though.

If nothing else, the chance to encounter vest wearing badguys in your home would give the AR15 a +1 as a HD gun. You can even go with an AR pistol at that point to keep it compact enough.

Glockdude1
02-14-2012, 12:36
It does not what kind of armor, vest, etc, a bad guy is wearing, they get hit one time, with any 12ga, in the arms, legs, and/or head, they will NOT want to continue to rob you.

:cool:

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
02-14-2012, 12:40
I can't very well keep my Saiga 12, AK, or AR in my trunk everywhere I go.

Harry

Why not? The trunk gun concept has been debated over and over here, but there are plenty of folks on here who keep a gun in their vehicle


As for the 9mm bouncing off denim and thick leather jackets, I've read reports on the net and I have also heard the same thing from LEOs. Same thing with windshields.


Do you have any links to these reports?

arclight610
02-14-2012, 12:43
Kevlar does not transform you into the Master Chief.

Aim for the pelvis.

DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 12:56
Why not? The trunk gun concept has been debated over and over here, but there are plenty of folks on here who keep a gun in their vehicle

Do you have any links to these reports?

No, I don't have reports...just a few things I remember reading on line and from what my LEO friends have told me. You can buy a level IIIa LEATHER vest right here....

http://www.bulletblocker.com/bullet-proof-vest-leather.html

Yes, I could carry something in the trunk....but that's far far away from my hip when I need it in a split seconds notice.




Harry

ronin.45
02-14-2012, 13:10
I've shot many different rounds into vests and I don't think any of them would feel good. A center mass shot into a vest will most likely cause the BG to flee. I doubt that armor is really very common among criminals, but if so, it's not that much of a game changer.

Bob Hafler
02-14-2012, 13:20
I'd imagine that the BGs in armor are the ones that don't wind up dead in their victim's house. If nobody shoots the perp, most people would never be able to tell they hard armor on unless they didn't bother to hide it.

As a side note, head shots are a lot more difficult to make against a determined, mobile opponent. They usually don't stand still to give you a clean shot. Aim COM. If you're really worried about BGs in armor, I'll reiterate my earlier advice - use a carbine.

Trust me I believe there is a lot better chance of me hitting a BG in the head area or other places with a 12 ga' with #2 buck than there is a BG walking into my house in full body armor.
I'd like to see some of these so called reports of this actually happening in home invasions. Seems to me like bad guys would want to get in and out with as little as possible to slow them down.

TN.Frank
02-14-2012, 13:24
Practice Failure drills...

Two COM and One to the head...

Even with body armor on the two COM is going to hurt and will slow them down long enough for the head shot to stop them...

Ditto. This should be SOP for anyone who's armed. From reports that I've read about LEO's being shot while in body amour they said it feels like getting hit in the chest with a sledge hammer, not something I'd enjoy. Any full power handgun round(i.e. 357Mag, 40S&W, 45acp and probably 9x19mm+P) will give the bad guy pause after two solid COM hits, that should allow you to do the head shot and put em' down for good.
Also, as stated, 7.62x25mm will cut through IIIa like a hot knife through warm butter so if you're really concerned pick up a Tok or CZ-52 for Kevlar equipped bad guys.