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TBO
02-14-2012, 12:47
Reported charges against concealed weapons holders nearly triple following MLive investigation

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/02/reported_charges_against_conce.html

Gunnut 45/454
02-14-2012, 13:16
TBO
Wow so some folks broke the law less then 1% of CCW holders as compared to the normal everday citizens that broke the law by how much? As in every barrel there are a few bad appples - no big deal!:faint:

snubfan
02-14-2012, 14:03
From the article:

"Many crimes do not involve the use of the gun, and the permit holder may not have had one at the time."

I'd like to see a breakdown of all the crimes. Are the majority wife beating psychopaths? Or are they DUI's by people that happen to have pemits?

pizza_pablo
02-14-2012, 14:15
I didn't notice a percentage, just numbers.
I would think that if the total number of CCW holders increase, all related data would follow.
Prob much to do about nothing....except for bashing gun owners, anyways :upeyes:

RussP
02-14-2012, 14:20
From the article:

"Many crimes do not involve the use of the gun, and the permit holder may not have had one at the time."

I'd like to see a breakdown of all the crimes. Are the majority wife beating psychopaths? Or are they DUI's by people that happen to have pemits?That and the length of time the person had a permit - are they long time permit holders, or are the offenders among the burgeoning group of new permittees.

Sam Spade
02-14-2012, 16:26
I'd like to see a breakdown of all the crimes. Are the majority wife beating psychopaths? Or are they DUI's by people that happen to have pemits?

Click on the link in the link, which will take you here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/2011_CPL_Report_376632_7.pdf

I didn't read it in detail, but that appears to be 34 pages listing every charge brought against anyone with a CCW.

Gunnut 45/454
02-14-2012, 16:42
Sam Spade
And 90% of the charges were very minor traffic crap! Most didn't involve guns- were not carried- nor used to commit the crimes! In other words has zero to do with CCW!

Sam Spade
02-14-2012, 16:54
Sam Spade
And 90% of the charges were very minor traffic crap! Most didn't involve guns- were not carried- nor used to commit the crimes! In other words has zero to do with CCW!

Hey, I'm answering quesitons and providing information! No need to get all excited when I do that! Become informed and use the information responsibly!

cowboy1964
02-14-2012, 16:59
Well gee, the number of licensees has also tripled. Besides, the article stated that the increase appears largely due to better compliance reporting. So IOW, the actual RATE of "charges" (whatever that is) may actually be declining.

Good grief, no wonder the world is in the shape it's in. Common sense and logic have gone bye-bye.

And besides, how many of those "charges" actually would result (if convicted) in the licensee having their license revoked? It sounds like most would not. So what is even the point? "Gee, 3% of medical doctors have gotten a speeding ticket, maybe they should have their medical license revoked." What?

RussP
02-14-2012, 17:13
Sam Spade
And 90% of the charges were very minor traffic crap! Most didn't involve guns- were not carried- nor used to commit the crimes! In other words has zero to do with CCW!However, they were law abiding, card carrying, background investigated good-guys as evidenced by the carry permit. Yet, they committed crimes. They broke the law.

HerrGlock
02-14-2012, 17:15
Well gee, the number of licensees has also tripled. Besides, the article stated that the increase appears largely due to better compliance reporting. So IOW, the actual RATE of "charges" (whatever that is) may actually be declining.

Good grief, no wonder the world is in the shape it's in. Common sense and logic have gone bye-bye.

And besides, how many of those "charges" actually would result (if convicted) in the licensee having their license revoked? It sounds like most would not. So what is even the point? "Gee, 3% of medical doctors have gotten a speeding ticket, maybe they should have their medical license revoked." What?

The vast majority of the Editorial boards on newspapers across the nation honestly do not give a damn about the fact it's probably better reporting that's driving the numbers up, they just want to show how horrible having any CCW law at all is and how quick can we get it eliminated.

RussP
02-14-2012, 17:47
The vast majority of the Editorial boards on newspapers across the nation honestly do not give a damn about the fact it's probably better reporting that's driving the numbers up, they just want to show how horrible having any CCW law at all is and how quick can we get it eliminated....and they see it like I commented, regardless of circumstances, they are first and foremost concealed carry permit holders who can't be trusted to obey the law...how then can they be trusted with a gun?

Jud325
02-14-2012, 18:37
A few internal numbers.

Total charges 2711
Pending 744
Dismissed 742
Not guilty 63
Conviction 1162

Misty02
02-15-2012, 01:43
From the article
"Many crimes do not involve the use of the gun, and the permit holder may not have had one at the time."

I'd like to see a breakdown of all the crimes. Are the majority wife beating psychopaths? Or are they DUI's by people that happen to have pemits?



Out of curiosity, I would be interested in reading that breakdown as well.

The article starts my mentioning “criminal and civil charges against concealed handgun carriers” then lists 2,700. Charges and convictions are not the same thing, and which kind of civil charges would render a licensed carrier unqualified? Later in the article it mentions 1,162 convictions, are these for the criminal or the civil charges? Is this in contrast to 394 convictions the prior year that would affect the ability to maintain the license by them being criminal convictions?

Awww Sam provided the link. Are they really counting the convictions of people that forgot their driver’s license at home? Just on that one, there are 32 charges and 28 convictions in the first few pages. They are counting traffic infractions and traffic accidents too? .

There are a LOT of charges of people driving under the influence, I hope they are suspending and revoking their drivers licenses as well!

Why are they including 16 year olds who weren’t carrying? Are they allowed to have a license in Michigan?

There were no totals per county to facilitate figuring out if the 2k of charges mentioned in the article are all those listed in that report, if they are, they are including everything including writing a check that bounced and littering.

Use of self-defense spray or foam device? Disturbance of lawful meetings? Refusal to take a chemical test? They are counting these?

Don’t know what these are: Malicious use of service provided by telecommunications service provider? Conspiracy to commit offense or legal act in illegal manner? Don’t even wish to know what “Animal defined; prohibited acts” means!

Lots of failure to disclose.

.

xmanhockey7
02-15-2012, 06:25
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Out of curiosity, I would be interested in reading that breakdown as well.

The article starts my mentioning “criminal and civil charges against concealed handgun carriers” then lists 2,700. Charges and convictions are not the same thing, and which kind of civil charges would render a licensed carrier unqualified? Later in the article it mentions 1,162 convictions, are these for the criminal or the civil charges? Is this in contrast to 394 convictions the prior year that would affect the ability to maintain the license by them being criminal convictions?

Awww Sam provided the link. Are they really counting the convictions of people that forgot their driver’s license at home? Just on that one, there are 32 charges and 28 convictions in the first few pages. They are counting traffic infractions and traffic accidents too? .

There are a LOT of charges of people driving under the influence, I hope they are suspending and revoking their drivers licenses as well!

Why are they including 16 year olds who weren’t carrying? Are they allowed to have a license in Michigan?

There were no totals per county to facilitate figuring out if the 2k of charges mentioned in the article are all those listed in that report, if they are, they are including everything including writing a check that bounced and littering.

Use of self-defense spray or foam device? Disturbance of lawful meetings? Refusal to take a chemical test? They are counting these?

Don’t know what these are: Malicious use of service provided by telecommunications service provider? Conspiracy to commit offense or legal act in illegal manner? Don’t even wish to know what “Animal defined; prohibited acts” means!

Lots of failure to disclose.

.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vltsuuq453f21p5525bwcn55))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425b

Check out subsection (d). And no someone who is 16 cannot get a license. I'm 19 and I can't get the license because you must be 21.

ETA: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(e3i4zx55wyekinzvn0xfkt3e))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-28-428

Misty02
02-15-2012, 07:04
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vltsuuq453f21p5525bwcn55))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425b

Check out subsection (d). And no someone who is 16 cannot get a license. I'm 19 and I can't get the license because you must be 21.

ETA: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(e3i4zx55wyekinzvn0xfkt3e))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-28-428

I guess "Operating under the influence of liquor - occupant under 16" means that there was a passenger under 16 and the driver (a different person) was the licensed individual?

.

MoneyMaker
02-15-2012, 07:29
...and they see it like I commented, regardless of circumstances, they are first and foremost concealed carry permit holders who can't be trusted to obey the law...how then can they be trusted with a gun?


You sir are why i would not want you to be in LE,As if one gets a ticket for going 5mph over the speed limit you see fit they dont need to be allowed there 2nd Amendmant rights do you?

HerrGlock
02-15-2012, 07:41
You sir are why i would not want you to be in LE,As if one gets a ticket for going 5mph over the speed limit you see fit they dont need to be allowed there 2nd Amendmant rights do you?

You might want to re-read what Russ wrote and see if it really said what you believe. I don't think it does. It might be a good idea to look up other postings of Russ' and see if what you believe it said is even close to anything he may have suggested previously. I believe you'll find you misunderstood his post.

Just a suggestion.

MoneyMaker
02-15-2012, 07:48
Looks to me it was more Drinking related issues,How many Cops or LE agency,Judge,Politicians ect drink but get off with nothing ever being said??Seems to me your are being Hypocritical of Citizens compared to Government Officials!!!

Misty02
02-15-2012, 08:45
Looks to me it was more Drinking related issues,How many Cops or LE agency,Judge,Politicians ect drink but get off with nothing ever being said??Seems to me your are being Hypocritical of Citizens compared to Government Officials!!!

I don’t know, I kind of prefer the argument of:

There are offenses listed that are civil in nature and not criminal. There are also many offenses listed that would have never affected the license status of an individual. Stick to reporting those that would have actually resulted in a suspension or revocation of the permit.

Versus

You’re just as bad as we are.

.

wprebeck
02-15-2012, 10:31
Looks to me it was more drinking related issues. How many cops, employees of LE agencies, judges, or politicians drink, but get off with nothing ever being said? Seems to me you are being hypocritical of citizens, as compared to government officials!!!

Tried a bit of editing, as reading your posts is reminiscent of a fourth grader's attempt at prose. If you actually want people to take you seriously, try a little harder with proper grammar.

RussP
02-15-2012, 11:46
Sam Spade
And 90% of the charges were very minor traffic crap! Most didn't involve guns- were not carried- nor used to commit the crimes! In other words has zero to do with CCW!However, they were law abiding, card carrying, background investigated good-guys as evidenced by the carry permit. Yet, they committed crimes. They broke the law.The vast majority of the Editorial boards on newspapers across the nation honestly do not give a damn about the fact it's probably better reporting that's driving the numbers up, they just want to show how horrible having any CCW law at all is and how quick can we get it eliminated....and they see it like I commented, regardless of circumstances, they are first and foremost concealed carry permit holders who can't be trusted to obey the law...how then can they be trusted with a gun?That is the entire conversation, including the 'soundbite' on which you chose to comment.You sir are why i would not want you to be in LE,As if one gets a ticket for going 5mph over the speed limit you see fit they dont need to be allowed there 2nd Amendmant rights do you?You might want to re-read what Russ wrote and see if it really said what you believe. I don't think it does. It might be a good idea to look up other postings of Russ' and see if what you believe it said is even close to anything he may have suggested previously. I believe you'll find you misunderstood his post.

Just a suggestion.Thanks, HerrGlock, yes, in context my intent with the post is clear.

Restate your question, please. I'm not clear what you are asking.

jpa
02-15-2012, 12:07
2700 were arrested, 800 of which weren't armed when arrested and another 500 it's unknown if they were armed or not when arrested. Then you have 762 whose charges were dismissed and another 43 who were found not guilty. Does anyone know how many CPL holders there are in Michigan, not just how many applications were given/received? I'd imagine it's quite a few since they gave out 87,000 apps in a 12 month period.

RGbiker
02-15-2012, 12:45
From what I've read: 300,786 permits in use. 87,637 new permits issued last year with another 10,650 new permits pending.

1,604 denied.......

but here's the shocking news......

better sit down for this.....

a breathtaking number of 466 permits were REVOKED.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

must be a very slow news day.

Rumbler_G20
02-15-2012, 13:14
I didn't notice a percentage, just numbers.
I would think that if the total number of CCW holders increase, all related data would follow.
Prob much to do about nothing....except for bashing gun owners, anyways :upeyes:



Agreed. Now instead of just a bunch of stupid people now we have a bunch of stupid people with guns.

I can see the potential for this to get ugly if we do not get the rules preventing the shooting of stupid people because they are stupid people repealed.

With the shall issue laws we got half way to where we need to be . . . :brickwall:

4TS&W
02-15-2012, 13:22
From what I've read: 300,786 permits in use. 87,637 new permits issued last year with another 10,650 new permits pending.

1,604 denied.......

but here's the shocking news......

better sit down for this.....

a breathtaking number of 466 permits were REVOKED.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

must be a very slow news day.

CCWers are a crime wave!!! :rofl:

HoldHard
02-15-2012, 14:22
Rebuttal (http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/02/concealed_wepaon_supporters_re.html) from Steve Dulan, a director with the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners (MCRGO).


“As I remember, the discrepancy between (concealed permit holders) and the general public is we could stand to have a tripling and still be much lower than the general population,” said Dulan, a Lansing lawyer.

He was not surprised violations would go up as permit holders themselves have increased, this month topping 300,000. Add better compliance by county prosecutors and clerks with reporting mandates, and Dulan said an increase was inevitable.


You will notice the reporter took his numbers (to make it "triple") by selecting 2010 which was just over the 900 mark, lower than the two preceeding years. As already posted, of the 300,000 licensees 466 were actually revoked for being convicted or .15% (yes, that's correct point one five percent or less that one quarter of one percent). But let's not let facts get in the way of a good headline.... those bad gun-carrying people were arrested!!!! :yawn:

Typical media... attempting to spin an eye-catching story out of horse manure.

If the public really knew what was going on in Detroit, there would be 600,000 permit holders in Wayne county instead of only 52,000.

HH

http://media.mlive.com/news_impact/photo/ccwchargesjpg-be73a02b0a6510fa.jpg

Gunnut 45/454
02-15-2012, 15:42
HoldHard
Exactly!! Don't use facts! That would make it seem like nothing at all!!:whistling:

RussP
And they obviously were Squeeky clean to be able to get the CCW! But made mistakes after having one- you know like all us imperfect humans do now and then! With the thousands of laws on the books I'm sure we all have broken one or two and could be caught by one any day of the week! EVEN LEO"S!:supergrin:

3000fps
02-15-2012, 16:40
The number of CPL's in Michigan TRIPLED


And the number of CPL holder crimes TRIPLED

That is a 1:1 ratio, nothing went up or down....

Volume of people to commited "crimes" like drinking with a gun. There are also a lot of idiots who have CPL's as well. There are responsible people like me and you, and then there is Joe hood rat who has a clean record despite his criminal misdoings and an extra $1000 to spend on a CPL.

windplex
02-15-2012, 16:45
I agree there is a journalistic agenda. all who studied statistics know there are 3 kinds of liars: liars; damned liars and statisticians. many people use stats to further their slant/position. compounding misuse of stats is that most people dont understand stats, including those who use them.

for me, i would like such stat collection to be legally connected to CCW.

Did the licensee do a crime using a gun illegally? -- that's the single mose pertanent stat, imo.

Did the license holder do a crime that impacted his CCW license? -- that seems relevant so long as general public stats are placed right along side this report.

Here is another rebuttal: (even at 0.9% (9/10ths of 1%) rate indicated by the 2700 reports) it is
"...much smaller than the 2 to 3 percent conviction rate for misdemeanors and felonies among the general population."

I guess I would say half to 1/3 the normal rate. thats IF I took the 2700 as a valid number. i am not convinced it is valid. if you speed while carrying it has no bearing on carrying, imo, and no business being reported. if you speed get pulled over and brandish the ccw weapon or worse shoot at the cop -- then by all means include it in the stats.

windplex
02-15-2012, 16:53
re OWI -- WI like MI has a high rate of alcohol consumption. when sherrif clark of milwaukee county was asked if LEOs who get nailed for OWI sould be fired (no longer qualify as LEOs) he said: here in WI we have a culture of consuming alcohol and it would not be fair to hold LEOs to a higher standard -- i paraphrase.

So if the OWIs were done when the licensee was not carrying a CCW then i see no reason to report unless it resulted in a revocation. even at that point i fail to see how an OWI arrest, as much as I despise this behavior, pertains to a CCW permit holder who was not carrying at the time of the OWI.

if i missed something please set me straight.

ScottieG59
02-15-2012, 23:20
This story is one of those designed to paint an impression. Maybe I can say gun owners are getting diabetes more often than ever, since I am sure it is true. Or if I lost money for the past 10 years, but made a tiny profit this year, one can say I have made record breaking profits.

There are variables that distort the validity of statistics. It is all in the presentation as well as the acceptance of questionable or speculative conclusions.

I like to see more valid information before I make judgements about possible trends.

DustyJacket
02-16-2012, 01:57
28 charged with carrying a concealed weapon?
But they were permit holders.
And only 14 had a pistol on them at the time?
Very odd.

But that bastard who was dredging/draining without a permit has to go. :)

Unistat
02-16-2012, 02:36
28 charged with carrying a concealed weapon?
But they were permit holders.
And only 14 had a pistol on them at the time?
Very odd.

But that bastard who was dredging/draining without a permit has to go. :)

In Michigan we have a Concealed Pistol License. Other weapons are not covered. Most likely the 28 charged with CCW were carrying knives.

There is no statewide knife-law pre-emption in Michigan so each city can make whatever laws they want. Some cities outlaw pocket knives completely.

Generally speaking, most officers are not going to jam you up because of a knife. You have to go out of your way to get them to slap that charge on you. In the Jail I work at we have a box of crappy dollar store knives taken off of arrestees that they are never charged with.

NEOH212
02-16-2012, 03:38
Well gee, the number of licensees has also tripled. Besides, the article stated that the increase appears largely due to better compliance reporting. So IOW, the actual RATE of "charges" (whatever that is) may actually be declining.


And besides, how many of those "charges" actually would result (if convicted) in the licensee having their license revoked? It sounds like most would not. So what is even the point? "Gee, 3% of medical doctors have gotten a speeding ticket, maybe they should have their medical license revoked." What?

I agree totally.



Good grief, no wonder the world is in the shape it's in. Common sense and logic have gone bye-bye.


This X 1,000,000! I can't stress this enough! You hit the nail square on the head!

:perfect10:

Misty02
02-16-2012, 04:46
In Michigan we have a Concealed Pistol License. Other weapons are not covered. Most likely the 28 charged with CCW were carrying knives.

There is no statewide knife-law pre-emption in Michigan so each city can make whatever laws they want. Some cities outlaw pocket knives completely.

Generally speaking, most officers are not going to jam you up because of a knife. You have to go out of your way to get them to slap that charge on you. In the Jail I work at we have a box of crappy dollar store knives taken off of arrestees that they are never charged with.

Same thing in Florida, in spite ours being a “concealed weapons” license. There is no preemption for knives. You can go to a park that is a few blocks away, but in another city and be in violation of their code/ordinance that forbids “any weapons” in their park. The statutes/ codes/ ordinances are likely not to address the blade length either. It is nearly impossible to stay informed in that area and you can’t always easily tell when you have crossed into another city unless you are viewing a street map.

.

HoldHard
02-16-2012, 08:02
The original article is on the MLive website. Websites generate cashflow by selling advertising based on the number of "hits" they receive. If a website can generate an eye-catching headline, then other websites like DrudgeReport (http://www.drudgereport.com/) puts a link on their site to MLive and bingo! their website hit count goes through the roof. This allows them to increase their charges for advertising. Let the Benjamin's roll....

Which headline title is going to catch the webmaster's eye at Drudge?

Reported charges against concealed weapons holders nearly triple following MLive investigation

or

Convictions of concealed weapons holders increases less that 1/4 of 1%

The first one is worded to look like MLive is investigating and uncovered something. Riiiiiight.... They investigated and uncovered the annual report (it's online) from the Michigan State Police.

The second headline wouldn't even get me to click it let alone Drudge....

HH

RussP
02-16-2012, 10:58
The original article is on the MLive website. Websites generate cashflow by selling advertising based on the number of "hits" they receive. If a website can generate an eye-catching headline, then other websites like DrudgeReport (http://www.drudgereport.com/) puts a link on their site to MLive and bingo! their website hit count goes through the roof. This allows them to increase their charges for advertising. Let the Benjamin's roll....

Which headline title is going to catch the webmaster's eye at Drudge?

Reported charges against concealed weapons holders nearly triple following MLive investigation

or

Convictions of concealed weapons holders increases less that 1/4 of 1%

The first one is worded to look like MLive is investigating and uncovered something. Riiiiiight.... They investigated and uncovered the annual report (it's online) from the Michigan State Police.

The second headline wouldn't even get me to click it let alone Drudge....

HH:thumbsup: