Intruder killed despite wearing body armor [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Intruder killed despite wearing body armor


DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 15:20
Not sure why my thread about AP ammo was closed, if I broke any rules...please mods, tell me why so it doesn't happen again. I mod several boards and I always give an explanation as to why I close a thread.

In my last locked thread, some said that criminals that do home invasions don't wear body armor....please read this, it happened just a few months ago.


http://m.rrdailyherald.com/mobile/news/intruder-killed-despite-wearing-body-armor/article_83c410b8-2cad-11e1-95f8-0019bb2963f4.html


Harry

gruntmedik
02-14-2012, 15:32
Since this is a thread about your locked thread, it will suffer the same fate.

DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 15:38
Since this is a thread about your locked thread, it will suffer the same fate.

No....my locked thread was more on point with AP ammo and why civilians can't use it.

Here, I only posted a news article stating that home invaders do in fact wear body armor....and it's become a "trend". Why shall it suffer the same fate? I still don't know why my thread was locked...if I had to guess, I would say it was because of the 7.62X25 comment.



Harry

Bodyarmorguy
02-14-2012, 15:42
Curious as to why the subject in custody has not been charged with murder? In most states....if you and I pull a caper and the victim kills one of us, the surviving one is charged with homicide in connection with the death.

DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 15:51
Curious as to why the subject in custody has not been charged with murder? In most states....if you and I pull a caper and the victim kills one of us, the surviving one is charged with homicide in connection with the death.

Perhaps because the suspect(s) didn't kill any of the victims, they just managed to get one of themselves killed? Don't know...state laws differ.




Harry

Metal Angel
02-14-2012, 15:57
Yeah around here, of two men break into a home, and the homeowner kills one, the other is charged with his murder.

T-Rod45
02-14-2012, 15:59
Perhaps because the suspect(s) didn't kill any of the victims, they just managed to get one of themselves killed? Don't know...state laws differ.




Harry

In most states, if a criminal dies during the crime, his accomplices get charged with murder for his death...

The_Gun_Guru
02-14-2012, 16:46
I'd like to know what the homeowner shot the BG with and where he shot him.

I'm thinking head shot.

Oh well, one less POS in the world....makes me very happy!:banana:


TGG

GSSF17
02-14-2012, 17:32
Curious as to why the subject in custody has not been charged with murder? In most states....if you and I pull a caper and the victim kills one of us, the surviving one is charged with homicide in connection with the death.

Good point. Most of the judicial circuits in FL are pretty good about this......

acpd442
02-14-2012, 19:44
IBTL. :supergrin:

craig19
02-14-2012, 19:52
In most states, if a criminal dies during the crime, his accomplices get charged with murder for his death...


That's how it should be.

dosei
02-14-2012, 20:00
Not sure why my thread about AP ammo was closed, if I broke any rules...please mods, tell me why so it doesn't happen again. I mod several boards and I always give an explanation as to why I close a thread.

As a mod on other boards, you should have been aware that copying materials, such as news articles, is illegal and can get GT sued. Delete everything you copied and just have a link to the article. Short snip-its from the article are general okay, such as a sentence or two. But copying the entire article, or even just the bulk of it, is a major no-no that will get a thread lock & deleted. Also, discussing illegal activities is against GT rules..and Federal law prohibits the manufacturing and/or selling of AP ammo.

Don't do illegal things, don't talk about illegal activities.

Again, as a mod on other boards you should have been well aware of all this.

WoodenPlank
02-14-2012, 21:21
I'd like to know what the homeowner shot the BG with and where he shot him.

I'm thinking head shot.

Oh well, one less POS in the world....makes me very happy!:banana:


TGG

Or got hit by rifle fire.

As a mod on other boards, you should have been aware that copying materials, such as news articles, is illegal and can get GT sued. Delete everything you copied and just have a link to the article. Short snip-its from the article are general okay, such as a sentence or two. But copying the entire article, or even just the bulk of it, is a major no-no that will get a thread lock & deleted.

It's not illegal (edit: as in a criminal offense, it's a civil matter) to my knowledge, but an unscrupulous company was suing websites for doing it. They recently got their heads handed to them in court, though, so their shenanigans will likely be severely curtailed.

Metal Angel
02-14-2012, 23:08
I want an AR for home defense. That way whether the BG is wearing armor or not, I can put him down fast. Until I can afford one, I'm just gonna practice with my handgun. Hopefully shot placement will mean something.

DeLo
02-14-2012, 23:34
I'd like to know what the homeowner shot the BG with and where he shot him.

I'm thinking head shot.

Oh well, one less POS in the world....makes me very happy!:banana:


TGG
10mm 200 gr

DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 23:49
As a mod on other boards, you should have been aware that copying materials, such as news articles, is illegal and can get GT sued. Delete everything you copied and just have a link to the article. Short snip-its from the article are general okay, such as a sentence or two. But copying the entire article, or even just the bulk of it, is a major no-no that will get a thread lock & deleted. Also, discussing illegal activities is against GT rules..and Federal law prohibits the manufacturing and/or selling of AP ammo.

Don't do illegal things, don't talk about illegal activities.

Again, as a mod on other boards you should have been well aware of all this.

You are probably looking at a different thread or board all together. Go check the locked thread and point out to me where I copied materials like the news articles you claim.

No discussion of illegal activities? I was talking about a home invasion, are you telling me I can't voice an opinion on what happened? It was news. I mentioned the law in regard to AP ammo, not once did I say or suggest anything illegal. I suggested that perhaps it should be reviewed again in light of the new, "body armor criminal trend".

Nobody answered why that thread was closed. Nothing illegal was discussed or implied and nothing was stolen via copy paste. The ONLY link I provided was to a site that sold leather motorcycle jackets. Like I said, if I said something wrong in that thread....I'd like to know what it was.




Harry

DrtyHarry
02-14-2012, 23:54
10mm 200 gr

G20sf in my night table with 200gr JHP from DT.





Harry

seamaster
02-14-2012, 23:59
Curious as to why the subject in custody has not been charged with murder? In most states....if you and I pull a caper and the victim kills one of us, the surviving one is charged with homicide in connection with the death.

Thre are several Halifax County's in the US and I think there is even one in Canada. I didn't read the article but did they specify which state?

WarEagle32
02-15-2012, 00:32
I want an AR for home defense. That way whether the BG is wearing armor or not, I can put him down fast. Until I can afford one, I'm just gonna practice with my handgun. Hopefully shot placement will mean something.


I totally agree with you on the AR. I have a S&W M4 with an Aimpoint which is super sweet. The AR is so great for HD because the 5.56 has a ton of stopping power, it will stop a man without penetrating walls, especially with TAP rounds. Not a lot of calibers can that be said about it. I also love my Norinco AK 47 for HD. It has a ton of stopping power and with ballistic tips won't slice through walls too bad. Either one will go through standard body armor like a knife through butter!

WoodenPlank
02-15-2012, 01:23
I totally agree with you on the AR. I have a S&W M4 with an Aimpoint which is super sweet. The AR is so great for HD because the 5.56 has a ton of stopping power, it will stop a man without penetrating walls, especially with TAP rounds. Not a lot of calibers can that be said about it. I also love my Norinco AK 47 for HD. It has a ton of stopping power and with ballistic tips won't slice through walls too bad. Either one will go through standard body armor like a knife through butter!

5.56 projectiles, TAP included, WILL go through typical interior home walls. It may penetrate LESS of them than some other HD options, but it absolutely will rip right through drywall walls. Same goes for 7.36x39.

T-Rod45
02-15-2012, 06:37
I totally agree with you on the AR. I have a S&W M4 with an Aimpoint which is super sweet. The AR is so great for HD because the 5.56 has a ton of stopping power, it will stop a man without penetrating walls, especially with TAP rounds. Not a lot of calibers can that be said about it. I also love my Norinco AK 47 for HD. It has a ton of stopping power and with ballistic tips won't slice through walls too bad. Either one will go through standard body armor like a knife through butter!

My local indoor range won't let you shoot non-frangable .223/5.56 because they say it may go through their backstop.

Idk, I have an AR ready to roll at home but it's my last resort as a HD weapon....

dosei
02-15-2012, 06:45
You are probably looking at a different thread or board all together. Go check the locked thread and point out to me where I copied materials like the news articles you claim.

No discussion of illegal activities? I was talking about a home invasion, are you telling me I can't voice an opinion on what happened? It was news. I mentioned the law in regard to AP ammo, not once did I say or suggest anything illegal. I suggested that perhaps it should be reviewed again in light of the new, "body armor criminal trend".

Nobody answered why that thread was closed. Nothing illegal was discussed or implied and nothing was stolen via copy paste. The ONLY link I provided was to a site that sold leather motorcycle jackets. Like I said, if I said something wrong in that thread....I'd like to know what it was.




Harry

This thread was in jepordy of being locked due to copied material. In the thread that did get locked, you were talking about using illegal ammo. Pretty obvious why it got locked.

Rustin
02-15-2012, 10:23
G20sf in my night table with 200gr JHP from DT.





Harry

That ain't goin through no dang body armor. Most body armor vests can stand a hit from a .44 magnum so the prestiguous 10mm can't do it either. Anyone heard of Mozambique drill? AKA failure to stop drill. Two to the center of mass, assess, if target is still up one to the head.

M2 Carbine
02-15-2012, 10:38
Too bad this Kel Tec PLR is so ear shattering loud, it would make good HD gun.
While I don't consider the PLR a primary HD guns are always loaded and I keep a pair of ear muffs on top of the safe.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/PLRCarbinesling-1.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/KT223onsteelfront.jpg

noway
02-15-2012, 11:51
This thread was in jepordy of being locked due to copied material. In the thread that did get locked, you were talking about using illegal ammo. Pretty obvious why it got locked.

You obvious did not have your glasses on nor read the thread. He never mention anything about using illegal ammo, in fact iirc he want to know if any thing was available as a public offering due to concerns of intruders wearing armor, which btw is a valid concern no adays.

His posted article also points to this out and shows this is now the norm, where as a decade + ago, this would not be a concern.

To the OP, your best bet to defend against intruders that have armor, is to aim for the head, us a buckshot loaded shotgun and aim for the head and both of these are hard todo in a high stress encounter.

The ultimate protection would be to start getting a short carbine rifle and load it with some thing nice and prove.

i.e a CAR15

:wavey:

DrtyHarry
02-15-2012, 12:05
This thread was in jepordy of being locked due to copied material. In the thread that did get locked, you were talking about using illegal ammo. Pretty obvious why it got locked.

All I said was that perhaps the law should be looked at again since criminals are wearing armor these days. I NEVER suggested the use or action of anything illegal. I simply brought to light a current news event. It was a civil discussion with no ill intent. It's closed now, why? dono...so be it.

That ain't goin through no dang body armor. Most body armor vests can stand a hit from a .44 magnum so the prestiguous 10mm can't do it either. Anyone heard of Mozambique drill? AKA failure to stop drill. Two to the center of mass, assess, if target is still up one to the head.

Very well aware of the 10mm cartridge, I know it's not going to pierce body armor. Next to my G20 is a Saiga 12 with a 20 rd. drum....I think that will throw the BG back enough to get a clean head shot, that's if the dogs haven't gotten to him yet.



Harry

M&P15T
02-15-2012, 12:07
55gr. M193 out of a 16" AR @ 3100FPS.

DrtyHarry
02-15-2012, 12:29
^Specifics like these are why my last thread was closed. Please edit ASAP.


Thanks,
Harry

DrtyHarry
02-15-2012, 12:40
You obvious did not have your glasses on nor read the thread. He never mention anything about using illegal ammo, in fact iirc he want to know if any thing was available as a public offering due to concerns of intruders wearing armor, which btw is a valid concern no adays.

His posted article also points to this out and shows this is now the norm, where as a decade + ago, this would not be a concern.

To the OP, your best bet to defend against intruders that have armor, is to aim for the head, us a buckshot loaded shotgun and aim for the head and both of these are hard todo in a high stress encounter.

The ultimate protection would be to start getting a short carbine rifle and load it with some thing nice and prove.

i.e a CAR15

:wavey:

I really appreciate you helping me point out the obvious. :wavey: Looks as if some folks can't read very well or had to take the small bus to school.

And yes, 20 rounds of 12g should be plenty.



Harry

Andy W
02-15-2012, 14:34
They didn't mention in the article whether the intruder was shot with a rifle or if the homeowner just got a got hit in on the head or pelvis. It says the homeowner fired "a shot" at one of the intruders. Sounds like it might be a bolt action hunting rifle or maybe a pump action shotgun. It seems like if you've got an AK or AR-15 you're probably gonna fire a lot more than one shot at the bad guys. Same with a semiauto pistol or DA revolver. I mean, if I've got 30 rounds on tap and there's somebody in my house trying to kill me, I'm not going to worry too much about conserving ammo. Hitting the bad guy is good, but hitting him 7-8 times is even better right?

Angry Fist
02-15-2012, 14:42
I really appreciate you helping me point out the obvious. :wavey: Looks as if some folks can't read very well or had to take the small bus to school.

And yes, 20 rounds of 12g should be plenty.



Harry
Send them slugs on through... :supergrin:

John Rambo
02-15-2012, 14:45
You obvious did not have your glasses on nor read the thread. He never mention anything about using illegal ammo, in fact iirc he want to know if any thing was available as a public offering due to concerns of intruders wearing armor, which btw is a valid concern no adays.

His posted article also points to this out and shows this is now the norm, where as a decade + ago, this would not be a concern.

To the OP, your best bet to defend against intruders that have armor, is to aim for the head, us a buckshot loaded shotgun and aim for the head and both of these are hard todo in a high stress encounter.

The ultimate protection would be to start getting a short carbine rifle and load it with some thing nice and prove.

i.e a CAR15

:wavey:

Some 70gr SSA Barnex TSX loads, baby. Good luck with soft body armor with those. :faint:

DrtyHarry
02-15-2012, 15:01
They didn't mention in the article whether the intruder was shot with a rifle or if the homeowner just got a got hit in on the head or pelvis. It says the homeowner fired "a shot" at one of the intruders. Sounds like it might be a bolt action hunting rifle or maybe a pump action shotgun. It seems like if you've got an AK or AR-15 you're probably gonna fire a lot more than one shot at the bad guys. Same with a semiauto pistol or DA revolver. I mean, if I've got 30 rounds on tap and there's somebody in my house trying to kill me, I'm not going to worry too much about conserving ammo. Hitting the bad guy is good, but hitting him 7-8 times is even better right?

In high stress situations where you must fire your weapon, the average (and possibly trained) person will continue to pull the trigger until he/she has spent all their rounds. At least that's what I've been told by some of my instructors and fellow LEO buddies.

30rds. of .223 or 7.62X39 is great to have on hand for SOME for HD, not so great when you have a house full of people and 2 dozen homes on your block. Bullets like to take vacation trips and they don't always arrive where they should. Shotguns with the correct ammo work best for HD, especially ones with short barrels that allow you to move and clear rooms easier than something with 18". IMHO!!




Harry

HoldHard
02-15-2012, 15:24
Thre are several Halifax County's in the US and I think there is even one in Canada. I didn't read the article but did they specify which state?This one says North Carolina.

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/10532967/

HH

WarEagle32
02-15-2012, 15:28
I like the my M4, AK, Mossberg 590, and my various pistols in different places for HD. I just think that with a family in my home and houses in the neighborhood that some Hornady TAP combined with my M4 with my Aimpoint is the best overall option. Reasons being it will go through most any body armor. Also i know it will penetrate drywall most of the time, not all the time. Even when a 55 grain TAP does penetrate 1 wall that's about all the overpenetration that I would have to worry about from the 5.56. The other options have as much or more lethality, but IMO you just can't beat an M4 for HD because it's safer because you have to worry about over penetration the least. If I lived alone out in the country with no homes near me I would go with a different option, but since I don't ever see that happening I don't worry about it!

walt cowan
02-15-2012, 15:29
150 grain 30-30 will chew through a vest and not get a jury to upset over a black rifle.

eracer
02-15-2012, 15:36
30rds. of .223 or 7.62X39 is great to have on hand for SOME for HD, not so great when you have a house full of people and 2 dozen homes on your block. Bullets like to take vacation trips and they don't always arrive where they should.

HarrySorry, but that's simply not true.

M193 will not over-penetrate in a home defense situation nearly as much as you think it will. In fact 9mm is far more likely to do collateral damage, since it will not fragment the way M193 will when fired at close range.

Similarly, 00-buck will tend to penetrate walls, whether made of drywall or concrete block.

DrtyHarry
02-15-2012, 15:55
Sorry, but that's simply not true.

M193 will not over-penetrate in a home defense situation nearly as much as you think it will. In fact 9mm is far more likely to do collateral damage, since it will not fragment the way M193 will when fired at close range.

Similarly, 00-buck will tend to penetrate walls, whether made of drywall or concrete block.

When did I say the M193 will not over-penetrate in a HD situation? I didn't even bring up that round.

What travels further....the 9mm or the .223? If some of those .223 rounds exit from a window in your house, you may have problems hitting nearby houses and/or pedestrians.




Harry

eracer
02-15-2012, 15:59
When did I say the M193 will not over-penetrate in a HD situation? I didn't even bring up that round.

What travels further....the 9mm or the .223? If some of those .223 rounds exit from a window in your house, you may have problems hitting nearby houses and/or pedestrians.




HarryI guess I misunderstood when you said: ".223 (or 7.62X39 sic.) is great to have on hand for SOME for HD, not so great when you have a house full of people and 2 dozen homes on your block. Bullets like to take vacation trips...

I took that to mean that you believe .223 bullets will travel long distances in a home defense situation (since that's pretty much what you said...and of course some, like Barnes Solid Banded bullets, will.

I wouldn't want ANY round - not even a .22 LR, to exit a window.

Forgive me if I seemed critical of your generality.

But you made it sound like .223 is BAD for HD, and shotguns are GOOD for HD (although you did qualify the shotgun by saying 'the correct round."

DrtyHarry
02-15-2012, 16:22
Forgive me if I seemed critical of your generality.

But you made it sound like .223 is BAD for HD, and shotguns are GOOD for HD (although you did qualify the shotgun by saying 'the correct round."


All good! :wavey:

They are both good for HD. I actually said, "30rds. of .223 or 7.62X39 is GREAT to have on hand for SOME for HD..." When I said some, I was referring to the geography of your house (country/city...nearby houses, buildings, etc.). Perhaps my explanation wasn't too clear. Sorry.



Harry

WoodenPlank
02-15-2012, 17:43
Some 70gr SSA Barnex TSX loads, baby. Good luck with soft body armor with those. :faint:

Too bad SSA wants an arm and a leg for that load. I'll stick to 75gr TAP T2 for now.

I like the my M4, AK, Mossberg 590, and my various pistols in different places for HD. I just think that with a family in my home and houses in the neighborhood that some Hornady TAP combined with my M4 with my Aimpoint is the best overall option. Reasons being it will go through most any body armor. Also i know it will penetrate drywall most of the time, not all the time. Even when a 55 grain TAP does penetrate 1 wall that's about all the overpenetration that I would have to worry about from the 5.56. The other options have as much or more lethality, but IMO you just can't beat an M4 for HD because it's safer because you have to worry about over penetration the least. If I lived alone out in the country with no homes near me I would go with a different option, but since I don't ever see that happening I don't worry about it!

Just because you keep saying it does not make it true. You ALWAYS have to take wall penetration into account when planning how to defend your home. 5.56 TAP WILL penetrate dry wall - maybe not as many walls as some other loads or calibers, but enough where you still need to be sure of what is behind your target. Blasting away with any firearm in your home with no consideration of what's behind the bad guy is a tragedy waiting to happen.

Sorry, but that's simply not true.

M193 will not over-penetrate in a home defense situation nearly as much as you think it will. In fact 9mm is far more likely to do collateral damage, since it will not fragment the way M193 will when fired at close range.

Similarly, 00-buck will tend to penetrate walls, whether made of drywall or concrete block.

In a bad guy, with a solid chest hit, neither M193 nor any good 9mm JHP is likely to exit the perp. Both are capable of tearing through enough interior walls to be of concern, however. Always know what lies beyond your target, no matter what weapon and ammo you choose to bring to the fight.

ca survivor
02-15-2012, 17:55
in Florida, is a crime to do a crime, in body armor :rofl: