1911 vs G19 as carry gun [Archive] - Glock Talk

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wrx04
02-16-2012, 18:11
I know, i know.....i dont want this to turn into a mess. I would like to get some serious opinions on why you carry one over the other. I really like both platforms, and i dont think one is better than the other as a weapon......i like certain things about both, and think they are both outstanding guns.

Without attacking the one you disagree with, why do you carry what you do? I shoot both guns well, but im trying to decide on a single carry gun, so i dont switch back and forth all the time. Im starting to shoot competitively, and i am leaning towards a 1911 as my competition gun........i would like to carry what i shoot regularly. I like the feel of the 1911 and shoot it slightly better, but the glock, on paper, is the better carry gun IMO.

1911 pros/cons:
I shoot the 1911 better than any other pistol, and have all my guns setup exactly how i like them. The ergonomics are great, and i love the big .45 round. The gun is very slim, which is awesome to carry, but it is also heavy and has a poor capacity compared to the G19. At the range, id pick the 1911 all day long, but not sold on it as a carry gun yet. I am NOT worried about the 1911 as being unreliable.....i have quality guns and take care of them properly.

G19 pros/cons:
Its light, accurate, cheap, easy to replace parts, very reliable, striker fired, durable, decent trigger......a pretty damn good gun. The only negative i can find with the glock is that its a little thicker to carry.

Im starting to take some training courses (carbine, shotgun, and handgun), as well as uspsa, and i would like to use the same gun everywhere. How did you guys pick what you carry? I know this will probably be slightly biased towards the 1911, but i want to hear your opinion.

CDR_Glock
02-16-2012, 18:17
I prefer the 19. It has the capacity, it's easy to shoot. It is extremely reliable. It is expendable.


iPad/Tapatalk

Tim151515
02-16-2012, 18:41
Just for me, I would rather carry a Glock. Their beaters and the only weight you have is the slide and the barrell.

glock2740
02-16-2012, 18:54
I carry a Glock of some sort most of the time.

LarryD1130
02-16-2012, 19:13
Another vote for the Glock. It's lighter and it carries more.

jrs93accord
02-16-2012, 19:20
The G19 is a great pistol. As far as 9mm pistols go, it, to me, is the quintessential pistol to have. I have one that I use to use on a security officer job I had. Very easy to operate and qualify with. That said, my EDC pistol is a Kimber Stainless Pro Carry II .45ACP.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2011/001-23.jpg

I love my 1911s. All 81 of them. When carrying for my protection, or anyone elses for that matter, I prefer something that does not require more than a couple shots to get the job done. To me, the G19 is a good gunfight gun. It has the magazine capacity for it. I do not want to carry something for a gunfight. I want to carry something that can eliminate the chances of a prolonged firefight. Anyhow, that is my opinion.

seanmac45
02-16-2012, 19:40
Your examination of the pros and cons is very well thought out.

I carried a G19 as a service and off duty weapon for 10 years. The day I retired it went into the safe.

I have carried either a 5 inch or 4 inch 1911 exclusively for the last 10 years. I want a round that will stop the fight as quickly and as definitively as possible. The pistol is slim and easy to conceal. The ergonomics, pointablility and location of controls is my idea of perfection.

If you have the right holster and belt the weight is a non-issue. The most overwhelming reason for carrying the 1911 in my opinion is the trigger. No other handgun can match the 1911 for the first shot accuracy and speed that you can achieve with it.

You state that the 1911 is the pistol you shoot better. Isn't that what you want if it comes down to saving your life? The pistol you are most likely to get good hits with is the one that should be on your hip.

Just my opinion.

Lethaltxn
02-16-2012, 19:54
I had this same conundrum awhile ago. Went from carrying a 19 to carrying a Springfield compact. Nothing wrong with either, but I like the slimness of my 1911. I do miss the capacity. If I had to go into the fire I'd probably chose a 1911 as primary and a 19 as backup.
My two pennies.

Rumbler_G20
02-16-2012, 20:00
Your examination of the pros and cons is very well thought out.

I carried a G19 as a service and off duty weapon for 10 years. The day I retired it went into the safe.

I have carried either a 5 inch or 4 inch 1911 exclusively for the last 10 years. I want a round that will stop the fight as quickly and as definitively as possible. The pistol is slim and easy to conceal. The ergonomics, pointablility and location of controls is my idea of perfection.

If you have the right holster and belt the weight is a non-issue. The most overwhelming reason for carrying the 1911 in my opinion is the trigger. No other handgun can match the 1911 for the first shot accuracy and speed that you can achieve with it.

You state that the 1911 is the pistol you shoot better. Isn't that what you want if it comes down to saving your life? The pistol you are most likely to get good hits with is the one that should be on your hip.

Just my opinion.

Bravo! YES! What he said.

I've been carrying a 1911 in .45ACP for well over three decades.

Why is easy. I don't want to shoot anyone. But if I have to, I want to end the threat expediently and effectively. Shooting someone 25 times, isn't expedient. Twice is much much faster.

See? Easy. ;)

wrx04
02-16-2012, 20:20
Your examination of the pros and cons is very well thought out.

I carried a G19 as a service and off duty weapon for 10 years. The day I retired it went into the safe.

I have carried either a 5 inch or 4 inch 1911 exclusively for the last 10 years. I want a round that will stop the fight as quickly and as definitively as possible. The pistol is slim and easy to conceal. The ergonomics, pointablility and location of controls is my idea of perfection.

If you have the right holster and belt the weight is a non-issue. The most overwhelming reason for carrying the 1911 in my opinion is the trigger. No other handgun can match the 1911 for the first shot accuracy and speed that you can achieve with it.

You state that the 1911 is the pistol you shoot better. Isn't that what you want if it comes down to saving your life? The pistol you are most likely to get good hits with is the one that should be on your hip.

Just my opinion.

My issue is that most SD situations dont involve "shooting better". They are mostly close range point shooting that occurs VERY fast. The advantages of the nice trigger and accuracy are not that significant when you consider this.

I took a close combat pistol course, and it really opened my eyes. Multiple attackers can get rid of your 9 rounds REALLY fast, and none of them involved using the sights. This is where capacity comes into play.

The other problem is that the odds of using your weapon in a SD situation is insanely small, so this leans me back towards comfort>capacity/firepower:dunno:

Lethaltxn
02-16-2012, 20:23
My issue is that most SD situations dont involve "shooting better". They are mostly close range point shooting that occurs VERY fast. The advantages of the nice trigger and accuracy are not that significant when you consider this.

I took a close combat pistol course, and it really opened my eyes. Multiple attackers can get rid of your 9 rounds REALLY fast, and none of them involved using the sights. This is where capacity comes into play.

The other problem is that the odds of using your weapon in a SD situation is insanely small, so this leans me back towards comfort>capacity/firepower:dunno:

More often than not after you fire the first round the other attackers will flee.
Unless we're talking WROL, in which case I stock with my previous statement. In that case I'm probably gonna have a long arm anyway.

bac1023
02-16-2012, 20:28
Its all about what you get used to.

I feel more comfortable with a 1911.

ProCarryNAustin
02-16-2012, 20:32
Why speculate.
Get out some targets at various ranges 3-25 yards and a shot timer. The pistol you can hit fastest and hardest with is the one you should carry.

wrx04
02-16-2012, 20:32
More often than not after you fire the first round the other attackers will flee.
Unless we're talking WROL, in which case I stock with my previous statement. In that case I'm probably gonna have a long arm anyway.

Yeah, thats true too. As soon as you fire a shot, the other guys are probably taking off. Im not going to war, and im not in a high risk situation.....just an ordinary citizen.

Lethaltxn
02-16-2012, 20:35
Yeah, thats true too. As soon as you fire a shot, the other guys are probably taking off. Im not going to war, and im not in a high risk situation.....just an ordinary citizen.

That's what ultimately led to my decision.
That and I got a sweet trade deal on my Lew Horton Springfield. :supergrin:

glock2740
02-16-2012, 21:15
Why speculate.
Get out some targets at various ranges 3-25 yards and a shot timer. The pistol you can hit fastest and hardest with is the one you should carry.
Great post. Well hell, I guess I better start packing my DW Guardian or CCO from here on out. :rofl:

JK-linux
02-16-2012, 21:24
I carry my G19 far more often than my 1911 because it is lighter and smaller. That said, if I could only keep one pistol for some odd reason, I'd keep my 1911. I like shooting the 1911 more and have owned it longer, so it probably has some sentimental value I suppose.

Sharkey
02-16-2012, 21:45
I've carried both professionally and I would suggest you carry the one you shoot best. I don't buy either claim - the 9mm won't stop someone and once you fire the first shot, other bad guys will flee.

I shot both pretty well. Both have the same trigger pull for every shot (pretty important in my book). If my risk of going into a gunfight was more than the average citizen and it use to be, my choice was easy: G19.

More ammo, less cost, more reliable (slightly debatable), less weight. Works for me.

OVERTHEHILLGUY
02-16-2012, 21:59
:kidding:Daaa, This GLOCK TALK what other answer would you expect???:kidding:

NeverMore1701
02-16-2012, 22:06
Beretta :tongueout:

Kaybe
02-16-2012, 22:18
I would go with the G19. It is safer to handle(three passive safeties), lighter, the 9mm is very adequate for SD. The Glock is tougher. Less likely that anything should break or malfunction if you should drop it. I like the part of NOT having to hit the safety as you draw. It is a SD tool. The .45, use it to target shoot. The .45 has less ammo, heavier, have to hit the safety when drawn, more prone to damage if dropped. You are responsible for the rounds you fire in self defense. If you use it, chances are, they will take your gun for awhile. Take the .45 or 9mm? Both are good guns but I think the Glock 19 is better suited for the task of CCW. You are the one who ultimately has to use it and be held accountable for it. Just my opinion.

vafish
02-17-2012, 04:27
I sold my 1911's about 10 years ago and started carrying glocks.

G23 is my carry choice now. 40 gives you 45 terminal performance with higher capacity.

I picked another 1911 a while back as a range toy.

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Lew-G17
02-17-2012, 04:33
A lightweight commander 1911 is hard to beat for everyday carry, but so is the G19. It really comes down to what you prefer. For me that is a 1911.

Infidel4life11
02-17-2012, 04:51
Both LOL. I carry the 19 now its small enough to carry without hassle, lots of rounds, big enough to get a full grip. I carried my PARA LTC 4 1/4" barrel for the longest time without issues. I just perfer the glock because I shoot better with it and I can carry 40rds with 2 mag vs. 16rds with 2mags

Bren
02-17-2012, 05:01
I know, i know.....i dont want this to turn into a mess. I would like to get some serious opinions on why you carry one over the other. I really like both platforms, and i dont think one is better than the other as a weapon......i like certain things about both, and think they are both outstanding guns.

Without attacking the one you disagree with, why do you carry what you do?

I have a few of each, but I carry Glocks.

A 1911 trigger is easier to shoot/learn and the weight helps with recoil and it looks cool.

BUT a Glock is lighter, higher capacity, and malfunctions less often, unless you have a really bad grip. In addition, under stress, the Glock doesn't have a manual safety (yep, I've missed it occasionally on the draw just in IDPA matches) or a grip safety (don't get the right grip, gun may not fire, which is why competitors use flat backstraps). Also, a Glock points as naturally as my finger, where a 1911 with a flat backstrap points down and requires rocking my wrist back to a higher angle than I'd use for pointing/punshing - that means loss of recoil control and speed (and with an arched backstrap - see above, re: grip safety).

I chose the Glock.

Not sure why "caliber" is part of this discussion - Both Glocks and 1911's come in the same caliber choices. I just wish .40 S&W 1911's were easier to find. I'd probably go with a Browning Hi Power in .40 over a 1911 anyhow.

glock2740
02-17-2012, 05:01
Both LOL. I carry the 19 now its small enough to carry without hassle, lots of rounds, big enough to get a full grip. I carried my PARA LTC 4 1/4" barrel for the longest time without issues. I just perfer the glock because I shoot better with it and I can carry 40rds with 2 mag vs. 16rds with 2mags
My G19 mags only hold 15 rounds. 15x2=30 :dunno:

HexHead
02-17-2012, 05:11
I have both a bobtail Commander size 1911 and a G19, with Milt Sparks Versa Max2 holsters for each of them. The 1911 conceals better.

okie
02-17-2012, 07:54
I used to have a Glock 30, come hell or high water I couldn't get used to the double action trigger. Nothing but a 1911 for me:supergrin:

Three-Five-Seven
02-17-2012, 08:34
When I got tired of my pants falling down, I switched from a 1911 to a Glock.

When I got tired of having to carry a holster, I switched from a Glock to a Airweight Chief.

Didn't look back.

1stMAW
02-17-2012, 10:02
I carried a Glock 27 for a while, but never really felt secure with, so I went back to my Colt 1911....I shoot the Colt a lot better...and I just have that sense of well being carrying the 1911....

highfructosecornsyrp
02-17-2012, 10:45
youll probably never use it. Carry the one that is more comfortable.

Or get a glock 30sf and call it a day. If your pockets are deep, buy a 36 too and stick the slide on the 30.

Glolt20-91
02-17-2012, 10:45
Glock's square shaped slide rubs hard on my hip bone IWB and it becomes very uncomfortable to carry after a few hours. A nice Cabela's 1.75" belt does an excellent job of holding my pants up. :)

An adjustable leather Bianchi holster comfortably holds a Colt 1911 Government against my hip bone and I carry IWB from when I wake up until bed time.

The G19 can't match the split times of the 1911 or its accuracy on multiple targets. There's a reason why many HRT and SWAT personnel choose 1911s.

madmike3668
02-17-2012, 11:05
My issue is that most SD situations dont involve "shooting better". They are mostly close range point shooting that occurs VERY fast. The advantages of the nice trigger and accuracy are not that significant when you consider this.

I took a close combat pistol course, and it really opened my eyes. Multiple attackers can get rid of your 9 rounds REALLY fast, and none of them involved using the sights. This is where capacity comes into play.

The other problem is that the odds of using your weapon in a SD situation is insanely small, so this leans me back towards comfort>capacity/firepower:dunno:

This is very true but for me the most important downfall of carrying a 1911 for sd is the thumb safety. Anyone whose taken a FOF training class with a 1911 or seen someone try, can tell you that manipulating the safety quickly in a serious close range situation is not easy. Once the adrenaline starts pumping even the most seasoned 1911 shooters forget or miss their thumb safeties. I just think its one more detail you don't want to worry about in a split second life or death situation.

Glock940
02-17-2012, 11:20
Another 1911 vrs Glock thread!? When will it end :tongueout: lol IBTL

FLA45fan
02-17-2012, 12:17
Ok, I'll bite . . .
When I first started, my friend had me convinced that a Colt .45 was THE only way to go. But I wanted a small, lightweight carry gun, not full size. Llamas and Stars to start - good ergonomics but not so good triggers and no enhancements. Then on to ParaOrds - better triggers and higher round count (P10's) but still wanted better ergonomics such as better thumb and grip safeties - better but expensive, heavier, and with shorter barrels, not always 100% functioning. Ended up with a Kimber compact steel frame - better all the way around but still not 100% perfect - a few FTE after some high count range time and still a little heavy. Living in Florida I found that I had to clean it constantly to keep the little parts and outside of the barrel from rusting when I carried it IWB. Nonetheless it was my Y2K and 9/11 go to gun. Then I got introduced to a used, beat up, police trade in, ugly G19. Put it through the paces - shot it without cleaning ALOT, did the "bury in the sand thing", swam in the ocean and only rinsed it off in fresh water, carried it constantly, shot it til my hand was sore. It worked. It was lighter, carried more rounds, was easier and faster to take apart for cleaning, worked when it wasn't clean, didn't rust when carried in less than optimum conditions, accurate enough for SD, didn't chafe me when carried "Mexican" (no slight here), had highly managable recoil, and now with all sorts of great SD ammo it is hardly considered low power. So I GOT RID OF IT! Why? To get a brand new one! Had that one for a year or so and traded for an XD9 Tactical. Great gun but I missed that dang G19. Bought my third one, put night sights on it and have never looked back. Don't get me wrong, I have had Colts (4), Springfields(3), Kimbers(5), Llamas, Paras(3), S&W's, Stars(2), Sigs(3) and some I may have even forgotten about. It's a nice platform but there can be some issues - the smaller they are, the less reliable they can be. They can be heavy or they will hold less ammo, they may be more suseptable to rust, etc. Everyone notices your fancy grips or your stainless steel or your fancy leather rig ( gotta have leather with a 1911!) but honestly I'm over it. The Glock is lighter, carries more ammo, won't rust as easily and just works.

By the way - my favorite .45 platform is the Sig 220 - I've had seven through the years and I keep coming back to them like the G19. Currently an older German 220 in Black T finish, a 220 Combat, and latest, a 220 Compact (G19 sized) for carry. The 220's are, without a doubt, the most accurate, most dependable, .45 autos FOR ME, even more so than any of my 1911's - IMHO YMMV etc. Next would be the XD45's.

turbostar66
02-17-2012, 12:38
I'd vote for the G19. Like others have said, less things to worry about in a high-stress situation (like backstrap and thumb safety), more reliability overall and better capacity.

OR, carry a G30 like me and get the best of both worlds!

I've had 1911s before. Had two Kimbers (one full-size and one commander). They shot great at the range when they weren't jamming.

BuckyP
02-17-2012, 13:14
I'd be hard pressed with that choice. My preference is for GLOCK, but the 19 size is my least favorite. Like someone already said, G30 FTW.

BigDeeeeeeee
02-17-2012, 13:57
1911 pros/cons:
I shoot the 1911 better than any other pistol

G19 pros/cons:
Its cheapThe first part is what really matters most to me.

I'm not sure if cheap is a word I want used to describe anything I may use to defend my families or my life.



:wavey:

faawrenchbndr
02-17-2012, 14:00
I'd carry a Glock 30 over a G19.
However, I prefer to carry my Colt Commander over the G30.

mrsurfboard
02-17-2012, 14:03
I know, i know.....i dont want this to turn into a mess. I would like to get some serious opinions on why you carry one over the other. I really like both platforms, and i dont think one is better than the other as a weapon......i like certain things about both, and think they are both outstanding guns.

Without attacking the one you disagree with, why do you carry what you do? I shoot both guns well, but im trying to decide on a single carry gun, so i dont switch back and forth all the time. Im starting to shoot competitively, and i am leaning towards a 1911 as my competition gun........i would like to carry what i shoot regularly. I like the feel of the 1911 and shoot it slightly better, but the glock, on paper, is the better carry gun IMO.

1911 pros/cons:
I shoot the 1911 better than any other pistol, and have all my guns setup exactly how i like them. The ergonomics are great, and i love the big .45 round. The gun is very slim, which is awesome to carry, but it is also heavy and has a poor capacity compared to the G19. At the range, id pick the 1911 all day long, but not sold on it as a carry gun yet. I am NOT worried about the 1911 as being unreliable.....i have quality guns and take care of them properly.

G19 pros/cons:
Its light, accurate, cheap, easy to replace parts, very reliable, striker fired, durable, decent trigger......a pretty damn good gun. The only negative i can find with the glock is that its a little thicker to carry.

Im starting to take some training courses (carbine, shotgun, and handgun), as well as uspsa, and i would like to use the same gun everywhere. How did you guys pick what you carry? I know this will probably be slightly biased towards the 1911, but i want to hear your opinion.

The truth points to itself. Carry the gun you shoot the best.

faawrenchbndr
02-17-2012, 14:13
The truth points to itself. Carry the gun you shoot the best.


Brilliant! :supergrin:

20South
02-17-2012, 15:15
My G19 mags only hold 15 rounds. 15x2=30 :dunno:

Maybe he is using the G17 mags with +2 extensions?

+1 in the chamber AND rounded up?

theglockside
02-17-2012, 15:55
Glock Forum... Glock.

flyingillini
02-17-2012, 16:38
I carry a G19. Most of my 1911s are expensive and I would rather not have it stolen from me in the event I ever have to use it to defend myself.

rpew1
02-17-2012, 17:24
Buy a Glock 36.

PlasticGuy
02-17-2012, 18:30
I never post in the Glock vs. 1911 threads, but this one is very civil and some good thoughts are being exchanged.

The Glock 19 is my favorite Glock pistol. It is the perfect blend of size, weight, power, and capacity. I do shoot it pretty well. It is cheap, reliable, and durable. However, I sold mine and carry a 1911 every day.

The 1911 is thinner, which offsets the extra weight. It recoils less in 9mm, or hits harder without extra recoil in .40 or .45 calibers. It also offers a scoring advantage in IPSC with the larger calibers. Most important for me is that I shoot the 1911 better than anything else. In a defensive handgun only reliability is more important than that, and my 1911's are reliable.

glock2740
02-17-2012, 18:49
Maybe he is using the G17 mags with +2 extensions?

+1 in the chamber AND rounded up?
:rofl:

rohanreginald
02-17-2012, 20:37
I am just like the OP. I prefer the 1911 over anything else. However for CCW I carry a glock. Either a G19 or my now EDC the G26. I switched almost exclusively to the Glock because:

9mm ammo is cheaper so I can shoot more.
The Glock is so much lighter to carry.
I can carry the G26 with the Factory 10 round magazine and have a 10, 15, 17 or 33 round magazine for backup.
The Glock has much more capacity.
As much as I want to believe the .45 is superior, I have faith the 9mm will do just fine.
Glocks are simpler to use so my wife can easily use it as well.

I love 1911's but I love Glock's jut as much. I wouldn't give up either!

geo80
02-17-2012, 22:22
Another vote for Glock

jaklcrow
02-18-2012, 00:21
I own and have carried a G19 and a 1911, and my go to gun is hands down my 1911. My 19 is actually choice #3 atm. Most carried is my Kimber Pro Carry II, then my Beretta Px4 Compact 9mm (which I like better than the 19 in every way), then the G19.

I plan on getting another 1911 to replace the kimber within the next year (Dan Wesson V-Bob).

I just feel better carrying the .45. I dont have any qualms about the effectiveness of 9mm, and having almost 2x the rounds is fairly comforting.

But since most self defense shootings are between 1-3 shots I just feel a lot better knowing that if I am throwing those big .45s out there.

But there is no right or wrong answer to your ? OP. Like pretty much everyone else has said, carry what you shoot best and feel most comfortable with.

glockenturm
02-18-2012, 08:21
I took a multi-day self-defense pistol class with a 1911. No malfunctions and capacity was never a factor. Recently I took a an all day 'tactical' pistol course with a 19. Granted these are kind of fantasy camps, but a great way to do shooting your local Gestapo-run range won't allow. One 1911 in the class. Eye-opening experience. One course we ran was 26 rounds and we each had 6 dummy rounds loaded in our mags for a grand total of 32 rounds total.

At the end of the run I had 13 rounds left in my third magazine. The 1911 operator drained 4 magazines. He would have loaded his fifth to be topped off. I don't care how fast you are, that's alot of magazine changes.

It changed my thinking. I don't know how many rounds I may need to save my life, but I do like knowing I have many more than a 1911 will allow.

I think it's good not to have a favorite weapon. Be good with them all. But you will be better with the Glock.

clancy
02-18-2012, 13:42
1911 for me. I just cannot get used to the Glock's trigger. I recently purchased a Glock 27, and it doen't matter how I hold it, nor how I adjust my trigger finger, it just won't shoot well for me. And I know it is me, as 2 friend's have fired it and they shoot it very well.

BFN
02-18-2012, 18:21
Down to one Glock, G36. If I was limited to a <$600 gun, it would be a Glock. Relatively inexpensive, dependable, durable, lightweight, reasonably accurate.

I have four 1911's which I rotate for primary carry. I just shoot them more accurately. I want to make the first shot or two count. Capacity of the 1911 is sufficient for self defense - I am not going to enter into a gang shootout. The 1911 trigger is much better and enables more accuracy. Weight is less of a factor for me, a heavier pistol is also more accurate, when its showtime, I want to be ready and get it over fast.

So I prefer the 1911 in all aspects except cost.

Check my Gat
02-18-2012, 19:36
On paper, a Glock is very superior. It is well documented to be more durable and reliable than a 1911, as well as having a higher capacity. It is lighter and in the Gen 4 ergonomics are very good. It is about as wide as most 1911s. Trigger is good to okay depending who you are but is not an impediment to combat shooting. Caliber discussion is moot, there's really no proving which is deadlier than the other against a man with modern +P+ hollowpoints.

But really, its whatever you shoot better or gives you confidence because that will determine how effective it is at performing its given task.

Added - I chose to bold that particular section because probably the most common stupid thing I see said is that .45ACP is a magical manstopper and 9mm is a comparative peashooter. The only time there's a serious disparity it incapacitating potential between the two rounds is when you're having a discussion about FMJ only (military or communist states of America).

mrsurfboard
02-18-2012, 19:45
On paper, a Glock is very superior. It is well documented to be more durable and reliable than a 1911

Well, if you say so. :rofl:

Check my Gat
02-18-2012, 20:02
Well, if you say so. :rofl:
A witty post for an equally witty poster... :rofl:

1911s made for no expense spared contracts for the US Military tend to have MRBS tested in the 100s and Glock 17s/19s tend to be tested in the tens of thousands regardless of the tester. Military 1911s with pretty low round counts have required rebuilding and meanwhile your average Glock has been demonstrated to go up past 400,000 rounds with only spring changes.

Throw in that all the much touted 1911 hold outs amongst professionals such as CAG (Delta), PMCs (no standardization but majority) have phased out their use of 1911s in favor of Glocks. The only unit/command (MARSOC) I know of that still issues out 1911s is the MEUSOC pistol and that's only because they're poor but know its still better than your average issued Beretta. That and Marine Corp equipment procurement is always something to scratch your head at.

glockin-45
02-18-2012, 20:14
Down to one Glock, G36. If I was limited to a <$600 gun, it would be a Glock. Relatively inexpensive, dependable, durable, lightweight, reasonably accurate.

I have four 1911's which I rotate for primary carry. I just shoot them more accurately. I want to make the first shot or two count. Capacity of the 1911 is sufficient for self defense - I am not going to enter into a gang shootout. The 1911 trigger is much better and enables more accuracy. Weight is less of a factor for me, a heavier pistol is also more accurate, when its showtime, I want to be ready and get it over fast.

So I prefer the 1911 in all aspects except cost.
I have to agree with you, although there both fine combat weapons, when your cc, you shouldn't be finding youself in a situation hopefuly to not have to worry about
acouple extra rounds.If someone shoots better with a 1911, then they should carry that. The only down side i see to the 1911, is to remember to take the safety off. Another reason to practice with the gun you carry.

Mr. Gekko
02-18-2012, 20:34
Wow! An actual civil discussion about Glock vs 1911. :wavey: This puppy would have been locked up long ago in a different subforum...

As for me, I have used the two platforms. I started with Glock and found out later on I am a 1911 guy. Both have their pros and cons. Carry whatever platform in any caliber you feel gives you the best chance to survive the unlikely need to actually use it.

Nakanokalronin
02-18-2012, 20:42
The G19 is a good gun. I had one for awhile but sold it since I can always buy another one down the road. I tried carrying the G19 for awhile but a 1911 just carries better and is second nature to me.

The only type of double stack gun that I can carry without printing is in the subcompact range like a G26 with a GAP floorplate or PX4sc. Anything bigger and the butt of the gun pokes through the shirt and yes, I have quality belts and holsters.

Check my Gat
02-18-2012, 21:59
The US Military uses Glocks??? That's a new one, how about a source for that BS.
That's a new one?


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4446974670_e0d5b0dae7_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4446280539_f995e557f2_o.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/4pz390.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT133fSU2ghT29rG-e86J_Io1vbD633uWlHMIO8OAKnZN6Kn4H7XEOKTjHmlg


Even the Air Force does for the people who are likely to need their sidearms (pilots).

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=6a303bc6931379d3a518fe25d22bbee1&tab=core&_cview=0

Added - I found all these on Google, again underpinning your stupidity.

And no, there is little to no current official documentation CAG's (or any army SF group's) procurement and if you think I'm lying about that you're dumber than you already appear to be.

Your domain knowledge about what the Military does is already handicapped if you're not in the Branch in question or in the Military at all. Considering you're probably a civilian and at the very least not in the Army (Home listed as NJ) you should probably take a step back and say "Hey where'd you find that out?" and not come at me like I'm full of ****.

MarkCO
02-18-2012, 22:46
Talk about the topic, don't attack each other!

TACLOAD
02-18-2012, 23:29
Dan Wesson VBOB. 8+1 and a spare 8 round mag. Both filled with PDX or Gold Dots. If I need more than 17 rounds of 45 ACP, I should not have gotten myself in that situation! That is a bad day! Either way I'm using the 45 to fight my way to the Colt LE6920 or the Mossberg 590A1

ancient_serpent
02-18-2012, 23:53
My 1911's have been great guns, no problems as far as reliablity (or anything else).

There is a problem with the basic discussion here, 1911 versus Glock. 1911 is not a specific brand of pistol, it's a type.

That is not a fair or valid comparison; we could well compare a Wilson CQB to a Sigma or Keltec and claim just as much validity in our positions.

FWIW, I carry a Kimber Pro CDP II or a Warrior 99% of the time. I choose those over a Glock 19 (that I also have no problems with) on a regular basis.

melensdad
02-19-2012, 05:35
My 1911's have been great guns, no problems as far as reliablity (or anything else).

There is a problem with the basic discussion here, 1911 versus Glock. 1911 is not a specific brand of pistol, it's a type....
I tend to be in agreement with you on this point. My daily carry is a Detonics CombatMaster 1911, small, heavy, powerful and very reliable. I've got both G26 and G19 pistols that could easily serve as daily carry pistols, both are reliable but I simply prefer the 1911 style and found one that works well for me.

I've got a lighter ParaUSA Carry9 that has an alloy frame and weighs about the same as the G19 but I rarely carry the lighter gun. I dunno why. Maybe I simply like the heavier all steel 1911 gun on my hip?

Bren
02-19-2012, 05:44
I took a multi-day self-defense pistol class with a 1911. No malfunctions and capacity was never a factor. Recently I took a an all day 'tactical' pistol course with a 19. Granted these are kind of fantasy camps, but a great way to do shooting your local Gestapo-run range won't allow.

If you want to do that stuff more often than just at the occasional camp, and for a LOT less money, start going to local IDPA matches.

Here are some clips from a typical, middle of the winter weekend match at my local club:
BGSL IDPA Match 2/19/2011 - YouTube

turtlendog
02-19-2012, 07:53
I have more trouble concealing spare ammo than a pistol and 1911 mags are thin enough to make a big difference. I feel comfortable concealing a 10-round 1911 mag but not a 10-round g-26 mag.

dudel
02-19-2012, 08:00
I carry a G38. Best of both worlds. Frame of a G19 with a .45 caliber hole.

I like my 1911s; but they spend more time in the safe than in a holster. Glocks get much more use. This is a personal preference; YMMV.

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 08:44
Again, the 1911 is what is for me.

However, my number two pistol would be my second generation Glock 19. I will never get rid of it or my model 26, both were on my person during 9/11.

Bothof those two Glocks have been outstanding performers and rock solid reliable. When I read the threads about the Gen 4 issues I cringe.

JK-linux
02-19-2012, 08:45
Take the 1911 and the G19 to the range.
Stand facing the target of choice, static or dynamic, about 5 to 15 feet away.
Draw from your holster*, which should be covered up by a shirt or jacket.
Fire only double or triple taps one handed, and only when the pistol is about belly to chest level, without using the sights.
Repeat.
Whichever one puts the most lead on target is your go to gun.

* draw walking backwards or sideways if possible.

engineer151515
02-19-2012, 08:53
My $0.02

I carry the Glock 19 because, with two G17 spare mags and one in the chamber, I have 50 RANGER hollowpoint rounds available for what I would envision is a primarially defensive situation.


That said, you can have a lightweight 1911 with the scandium framed units. Mine is a full sized 1911 with the slim grips making it as comfortable a carry as any Glock unit, plus very thin.

rich n
02-19-2012, 09:21
If my dept. would let me carry my 1911 I would, but they dont so I have a 19 and 30 and I shoot the 30 better. I have owned a 17,31,27. I think the 19 and 30 are the best Glocks made.

MD357
02-19-2012, 10:06
On paper, a Glock is very superior. It is well documented to be more durable and reliable than a 1911, as well as having a higher capacity. It is lighter and in the Gen 4 ergonomics are very good. It is about as wide as most 1911s. Trigger is good to okay depending who you are but is not an impediment to combat shooting. Caliber discussion is moot, there's really no proving which is deadlier than the other against a man with modern +P+ hollowpoints.

But really, its whatever you shoot better or gives you confidence because that will determine how effective it is at performing its given task.

Added - I chose to bold that particular section because probably the most common stupid thing I see said is that .45ACP is a magical manstopper and 9mm is a comparative peashooter. The only time there's a serious disparity it incapacitating potential between the two rounds is when you're having a discussion about FMJ only (military or communist states of America).

Yep.... glock reliability is WELL documented..... on paper. :supergrin:

http://www.strelectvi.cz/forum/userpix/4244_glock_kaboom_photo_1.jpg

Oh and I've been in the OR when certain rounds got pulled out of someone. .45 wounds are generally more nasty, especially when they hit osseous tissue. But that's for the caliber forum.

1911 will always get the nod for me for carry, it's just a better overall defense platform FOR ME. However, I have no reservations carrying a glock as I have a pair of kevlar boxers.

dakrat
02-19-2012, 15:44
I would not hesitate to carry either.

rabbivj
02-19-2012, 16:19
I would not hesitate to carry either.

This. I do shoot better with 1911s but I carry a G30SF atm. Im looking to possibly go back to 9 mm tho. gonna get a LWD 9mm conversion barrel and maybe use that for carry depending on the reliability.

wrx04
02-19-2012, 17:49
My 1911's have been great guns, no problems as far as reliablity (or anything else).

There is a problem with the basic discussion here, 1911 versus Glock. 1911 is not a specific brand of pistol, it's a type.

That is not a fair or valid comparison; we could well compare a Wilson CQB to a Sigma or Keltec and claim just as much validity in our positions.

FWIW, I carry a Kimber Pro CDP II or a Warrior 99% of the time. I choose those over a Glock 19 (that I also have no problems with) on a regular basis.

In my case, it would be a Wilson CQB vs a Gen 3 G19 (pre-2010). Both have been very reliable. I just got back from a carbine course i took today, and i brought the glock. Even though we didnt shoot a ton of pistol rounds, the glock put every shot in the black on the vickers target, including the 1" square on the head.

Its good to here everyone elses opinion on it. The glock feels like shooting a toy after shooting the 1911s, but i cant argue with the results i get. I guess i will keep shooting both and carry whatever i feel like. They are both awesome guns IMO.

wrx04
02-19-2012, 17:54
If you want to do that stuff more often than just at the occasional camp, and for a LOT less money, start going to local IDPA matches.

Here are some clips from a typical, middle of the winter weekend match at my local club:
BGSL IDPA Match 2/19/2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9DVoMMjTyg)

Im gonna head out there the first sunday in march for the uspsa classifier. How often do they shoot idpa over there? Never tried a real match before, but it looks fun.

1911master
02-19-2012, 19:08
As you can tell from my name (1911master) I have a soft spot for 1911s of all calibers and with that being said I carry a Glock 38 on a daily basis. As a point I have 2 one OD and one Black. The GAP serves me very well and I cant think of life without it.

Yes I am a new convert to the GAP and wont to back.

Jim17
02-19-2012, 20:00
Carry a GLOCK. Aside from all the above reasons, what do you want sitting in the evidence locker (getting scratched) while the grand jury meets: a $500 GLOCK or more expensive 1911?

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 20:44
So long as I remain alive for the jury to debate; the 1911 by all means.

glock2740
02-19-2012, 21:19
Carry a GLOCK. Aside from all the above reasons, what do you want sitting in the evidence locker (getting scratched) while the grand jury meets: a $500 GLOCK or more expensive 1911?
Scratches just give a carry gun character. :cool:

NeverMore1701
02-19-2012, 21:31
Carry a GLOCK. Aside from all the above reasons, what do you want sitting in the evidence locker (getting scratched) while the grand jury meets: a $500 GLOCK or more expensive 1911?

While I carry neither a 1911 nor a Glock, I'm pretty dang sure that post shooting, the deposition of my gun will be waaaay down on my "give a crap" list. Can always buy another one, and fairly inexpensively at that.

cole
02-19-2012, 23:02
I know, i know.....i dont want this to turn into a mess. I would like to get some serious opinions on why you carry one over the other. I really like both platforms, and i dont think one is better than the other as a weapon......i like certain things about both, and think they are both outstanding guns.

Without attacking the one you disagree with, why do you carry what you do? I shoot both guns well, but im trying to decide on a single carry gun, so i dont switch back and forth all the time. Im starting to shoot competitively, and i am leaning towards a 1911 as my competition gun........i would like to carry what i shoot regularly. I like the feel of the 1911 and shoot it slightly better, but the glock, on paper, is the better carry gun IMO.

1911 pros/cons:
I shoot the 1911 better than any other pistol, and have all my guns setup exactly how i like them. The ergonomics are great, and i love the big .45 round. The gun is very slim, which is awesome to carry, but it is also heavy and has a poor capacity compared to the G19. At the range, id pick the 1911 all day long, but not sold on it as a carry gun yet. I am NOT worried about the 1911 as being unreliable.....i have quality guns and take care of them properly.

G19 pros/cons:
Its light, accurate, cheap, easy to replace parts, very reliable, striker fired, durable, decent trigger......a pretty damn good gun. The only negative i can find with the glock is that its a little thicker to carry.

Im starting to take some training courses (carbine, shotgun, and handgun), as well as uspsa, and i would like to use the same gun everywhere. How did you guys pick what you carry? I know this will probably be slightly biased towards the 1911, but i want to hear your opinion.

I have both. I carry both. I carry an all-steel 7+1 4" Compact 1911 more than the G19, the G26 about as much the 1911, and the G30 more than all three. I prefer to use .45acp. I prefer to carry a spare mag and a 1911 mag is very thin and comfortable to carry; same with the gun. A spare Glock 19/17 and 30/21 mag is almost like having a gun on the weak side IMO, but a G26 mag not so much, and a G30 mag not as bad as a G19/17. I only carry IWB and Glocks are fat bricks compared with a 1911, but I've had good experience with Glocks in the minimalistic Galco Stow-n-Go rigs with a heavy gun belt, or the CBST. IMO, a fat gun in a thin holster is ideal. I run the 1911 mainly in a CBST, and also have a Remora and Bladetech Nano. I can't stress a heavy gun belt enough. I shoot the 1911 better than any Glock. I shoot the Glock 30 better than the Glock 19 most days. I think the Glock 19 is the perfect one-gun option. But, I don't have much reason to CCW a 15+1 9mm G19 over the 10+1 .45acp G30. The G17 is my better range/game blaster. The Glock 26 is the better dedicated CCW IMO (assuming it fits your hand) and is the smallest I'll go. I often find the G19 is the perfect 9mm handgun I just don't have much use for. Good luck.

Jerry
02-19-2012, 23:25
I have carried either a 5 inch or 4 inch 1911 exclusively for the last 10 years. I want a round that will stop the fight as quickly and as definitively as possible. The pistol is slim and easy to conceal. The ergonomics, pointablility and location of controls is my idea of perfection.

If you have the right holster and belt the weight is a non-issue. The most overwhelming reason for carrying the 1911 in my opinion is the trigger. No other handgun can match the 1911 for the first shot accuracy and speed that you can achieve with it.

You state that the 1911 is the pistol you shoot better. Isn't that what you want if it comes down to saving your life? The pistol you are most likely to get good hits with is the one that should be on your hip.

Just my opinion.

Pretty much covers why I prefer and carry my 1911.

ancient_serpent
02-20-2012, 00:36
A witty post for an equally witty poster... :rofl:

1911s made for no expense spared contracts for the US Military tend to have MRBS tested in the 100s and Glock 17s/19s tend to be tested in the tens of thousands regardless of the tester. Military 1911s with pretty low round counts have required rebuilding and meanwhile your average Glock has been demonstrated to go up past 400,000 rounds with only spring changes.

Could you post up something to substantiate this claim of these average Glocks with 400,000 rounds through them? I did a bit of looking and asking around, can't find that information.
In my own experiences, I haven't had reliability problems from my Colt, Kimber or Springfield 1911's. My round counts are similar for my Warrior and my Glock 19. I change the springs on a regular basis; neither pistol shows much (if any) wear.

Throw in that all the much touted 1911 hold outs amongst professionals such as CAG (Delta), PMCs (no standardization but majority) have phased out their use of 1911s in favor of Glocks. The only unit/command (MARSOC) I know of that still issues out 1911s is the MEUSOC pistol and that's only because they're poor but know its still better than your average issued Beretta. That and Marine Corp equipment procurement is always something to scratch your head at.

Someone more knowledgeable than me feel free to correct me, but this doesn't seem to add up.
If you saying the Corp perfers the 1911's because they're cheaper, that doesn't make any sense. The Glock is typically cheaper per unit.

Perhaps they simply like what they have?

*As a side note, my experience with the M9 was generally positive. Very reliable, if not the most durable pistol.


See above.

Check my Gat
02-20-2012, 00:47
It was cheaper because the Marine Corp initially started issuing them as rebuilds of original GI 1911s from the pre M9 era. They later end up issuing new builds to maintain commonality as is often the self sustaining cycle of Military equipment procurement. Also, I don't know a ton about MARSOC, but there's a MARSOC guy in one of the pictures I posted with a Glock so there you go. Maybe they issue them now too, I don't know.

As far as the 400,00 round count claim, they've got one right in the Glock factory in Austria. 430,000 rounds or something ridiculous like that. If you get bored go email some of the big name training contractors what kind of round counts they have on their most used pistols, Glocks you'll find its usually in the low hundreds of thousands range and they're still going strong.

cooden
02-20-2012, 04:14
I asked myself this same question over a year ago. I shoot USPSA with my G19 & I would occasionally carry my Kobra Carry. I sold the Kobra Cary and use only my G19 for carry. My thoughts were this:

9mm ammo is much cheaper
Round capacity
No safeties to mess with
Low maintenance to keep the gun operational

I even sold all my other pistols and now I have 2 G19's set up the same way. Everyone has a different opinion, which is great. For me, I decided to go with the G19.

Bren
02-20-2012, 04:38
Im gonna head out there the first sunday in march for the uspsa classifier. How often do they shoot idpa over there? Never tried a real match before, but it looks fun.

They have IDPA monthly, 12 months a year. Once in a while it will get called off for weather, but rarely. Pretty much every day of every weekend there is some kind of match going on at BGSL, cowboy action, USPSA pistol/3-gun/etc., GSSF, IDPA, Bullseye, steel challenge, etc., as well as even more shotgun. I think the high power rifle matches have moved to Anderson Co.

Bren
02-20-2012, 04:44
Yep.... glock reliability is WELL documented..... on paper. :supergrin:

http://www.strelectvi.cz/forum/userpix/4244_glock_kaboom_photo_1.jpg

Oh and I've been in the OR when certain rounds got pulled out of someone. .45 wounds are generally more nasty, especially when they hit osseous tissue. But that's for the caliber forum.

1911 will always get the nod for me for carry, it's just a better overall defense platform FOR ME. However, I have no reservations carrying a glock as I have a pair of kevlar boxers.

Well, if that's your evidence, you better quit shooting 1911's too:
http://gunner.sixshootercommunity.org/1911/KaBoom.jpg

And definitely stay away from revolvers, since they seem to blow up worse and more often than anything.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/files/imagecache/photo-gallery/photo/23/blown_gun2.jpg

Mushinto
02-20-2012, 10:00
Carry a GLOCK. Aside from all the above reasons, what do you want sitting in the evidence locker (getting scratched) while the grand jury meets: a $500 GLOCK or more expensive 1911?

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to suffer the embarrassment in front of my good friends, if it was reported in the media that I was carrying a Glock.

Mushinto
02-20-2012, 10:08
Speaking of this topic, which one do you think the winner picked?

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa137/Mushinto/NRA2102DrawingSpr1911Glock19jpg.jpg

NeverMore1701
02-20-2012, 10:27
Speaking of this topic, which one do you think the winner picked?

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa137/Mushinto/NRA2102DrawingSpr1911Glock19jpg.jpg

I'd go with the GI. Now if it were a Px4 instead of a Glock.... :whistling:


:supergrin:

tinman517
02-20-2012, 10:47
OP,

I had the same question for myself, last year. After some thought and trials, I opted for a 30SF. For me, it was the best of both worlds.

Bren
02-20-2012, 10:56
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to suffer the embarrassment in front of my good friends, if it was reported in the media that I was carrying a Glock.

If that would embarrass you, you don't have enough shooting knowledge and experience. Once you get beyond picking up your opinions from the gun magazines, you'll feel different.

Golddog
02-20-2012, 11:43
I've happily carried a 19 and a 26. I've never carried a 1911 because I don't trust their reliability and, in the event that I might get a slightly crooked grip in a an emergency, I don't like grip safeties.

But for the past few years I've opted for the best of both worlds - I've toted either a CZ Rami or a 75B.

MD357
02-20-2012, 12:23
Well, if that's your evidence, you better quit shooting 1911s too.

Yeah um try googling "Glock and Kaboom" and see how many different image hits you get...... relative to 1911s. Especially before guns that had small parts or barrels that had been redesigned errrr..... "upgraded."

Don't worry I would carry a glock and have.... rather I'm just proving the futility of the "on paper" comment.

Bren
02-20-2012, 13:33
Yeah um try googling "Glock and Kaboom" and see how many different image hits you get...... relative to 1911s. Especially before guns that had small parts or barrels that had been redesigned errrr..... "upgraded."

Don't worry I would carry a glock and have.... rather I'm just proving the futility of the "on paper" comment.

I guess my point was, most people know the "kaboom" rarely has anything to do with the gun. I'd bet my next paycheck that all 3 pictures in my post are the result of bad ammo (or, less likely, a barrel obstruction). Pretty much any gun made is fine with the ammo it was designed for and anything froma Raven .25 to a Barrett .50 will blow up if it gets a round that was double charged or an obstructed bore.

ancient_serpent
02-20-2012, 15:43
It was cheaper because the Marine Corp initially started issuing them as rebuilds of original GI 1911s from the pre M9 era. They later end up issuing new builds to maintain commonality as is often the self sustaining cycle of Military equipment procurement. Also, I don't know a ton about MARSOC, but there's a MARSOC guy in one of the pictures I posted with a Glock so there you go. Maybe they issue them now too, I don't know.

Which is why they ended up ordering some pistols from Kimber as well as continuing the logistical tail and armorer training needed to support the guns?
Again, cost-wise, doesn't add up.

As far as the 400,00 round count claim, they've got one right in the Glock factory in Austria. 430,000 rounds or something ridiculous like that. If you get bored go email some of the big name training contractors what kind of round counts they have on their most used pistols, Glocks you'll find its usually in the low hundreds of thousands range and they're still going strong.

Ok, cool. Not a matter of me being bored, you specifically named a very high number of rounds. I don't doubt that it's possible, I'd just like to see a link to a credible source.


I found this grey article, http://www.chuckhawks.com/beretta_M9_pistol.htm

which mentions some 1911's with over 400,000 rounds...

My point is that most people will sit there and debate this to death instead of working it out in their training. For me, a quality 1911 works just as well as any Glock I've ever bought or been issued.
A number of civilian shooters and organizations feel and have felt the same way over the last 100 years.

Check my Gat
02-20-2012, 16:43
I found this grey article, http://www.chuckhawks.com/beretta_M9_pistol.htm
As far as linking to credible articles go, your standard of proof between you proving my point and you proving yours seems to be different. All this article does is provide a third hand account of 1911 service life in relation to round count. I don't doubt the claim, either, but this isn't exactly a peer reviewed scholarly article either. That kind of stuff usually doesn't exist, isn't easy to find or lastly isn't exactly what you need it to be in regards to firearms or the inner workings of Military units that aren't mainline. You'll have to live without the annotated bibliography.

[QUOTE]organizations feel and have felt the same way over the last 100 years.
But in the profession of arms, the only one that continues to issue them is one Marine command. CAG has no shortage of cash and got rid of them purely for performance related reasons.

"Which is why they ended up ordering some pistols from Kimber as well as continuing the logistical tail and armorer training needed to support the guns?
Again, cost-wise, doesn't add up."

The training needed to support the guns that was already in place. I address that they end up buying more in my own post. Maintaining continuity in "the logistical tail" reduces short term costs, and/or long term costs case dependent.
More over, military decisions frequently don't make sense, cost or otherwise. If you never saw it during your time in, you needed to look more closely. I'm surprised you never heard some decision maker tell you the reason we're doing (or not doing) this although an alternative course of action may be superior is to...
1)Prevent the need for retraining, even if said retraining would be nearly without cost and that retraining occurs frequently regardless of any changes.
2)Maintain logistical continuity, even if you are in a constant state of depletion and you wouldn't be "wasting" any resources by making some manner of change.
3)satisfy my (hypothetical placeholder leader) ego as the ultimate decision maker.

fowler
02-20-2012, 17:19
Glocks are more reliable out of the box. I have had over 40 1911,s in 4.5 decades and they all jammed out of no where a time or two many times. I like Colt 1911,s ,but if it has to work a Sig or Glock wins. I still use the colt 1911 for old times sake,but trust Glock or Sig more.

Lockback
02-20-2012, 18:35
I don't have anything stunningly original to add to this thread.
Having issued that caveat, let me put in my $.02 ...

I have owned many 1911s, from the old AMT Longslide - 7" barrel and slide - to two Colt Officers ACPs -3.5" barrels - to the normal full-sized, all-steel 5" original models.
I currently own a lightly modified Springfield Armory 1911 that's Parkerized, has a Videcki trigger and little else in terms of any kind of custom work. It never chokes on anything, always goes bang, always extracts, always feeds ... and I'm very, very good with it.
Years ago, I bought a Gen 1 Glock 17, probably one of the first ones in my state. I'd read Peter Kokalis' review in Soldier of Fortune (this was about 1985) and figured if HE liked it and gave it his stamp of approval, I'd try one.
I loved it. Ugly as hell but it always worked and was impervious to the elements, light, tough, durable, reliable, which is what I look for in a firearm.
A few years later, I switched to a Gen 2 G19, preferring the slightly smaller dimensions.
I still have it. I've lost track of how many thousands of rounds I've put through it. It just flat-out never fails, literally to the point of almost amazement.

So, which one do I carry?
Actually ... neither.
I compromised and bought a G36 .45ACP years ago and it's my EDC piece.
But on those occasions when, for various reasons, I don't carry my G36, I carry the G19. Lots of ammo on tap, a trigger action I'm totally used to and comfortable with, complete reliability, a good defense round in hollowpoint form, Trijicon night sights. Beautiful!
Why, then, don't I carry the 1911?
In a word (okay, two words, actually): too heavy.
If I had an aluminum-framed Lightweight Commander with the 4.25" barrel, not so much. But I don't. I have the full-sized steel-framed model and I love it but it is close to 40 ounces unloaded.
The G19 or G36 are lighter. Totally reliable. Durable as a rock. Easy to maintain.
This is in no way an indictment of the 1911, which remains my second favorite handgun platform ever. I can't imagine not having one. I love it. And want more of them.
But when it comes down to carrying a gun for defense, I prefer the Glock platform: light but tough polymer frame, no external safety, excellent combat trigger (not too light or heavy), incredible reliability, easy to handle recoil, and on and on and on.
Just my choice. I have carried my 1911 before and undoubtedly will again. And I'm a fan of the .45ACP round, although I don't feel at a terrible disadvantage with the 9mm. But when I wander outside my comfort zone into the Real World, 95% of the time, you'll find a Glock by my side.

Mushinto
02-20-2012, 22:12
I'd go with the GI. Now if it were a Px4 instead of a Glock.... :whistling:

:supergrin:

So did the winner.

fnfalman
02-20-2012, 23:02
I carried a Glock 17 in Desert Storm. It didn't mean that Uncle Sam issued it to me.

That's a new one?


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4446974670_e0d5b0dae7_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4446280539_f995e557f2_o.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/4pz390.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT133fSU2ghT29rG-e86J_Io1vbD633uWlHMIO8OAKnZN6Kn4H7XEOKTjHmlg


Even the Air Force does for the people who are likely to need their sidearms (pilots).

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=6a303bc6931379d3a518fe25d22bbee1&tab=core&_cview=0

Added - I found all these on Google, again underpinning your stupidity.

And no, there is little to no current official documentation CAG's (or any army SF group's) procurement and if you think I'm lying about that you're dumber than you already appear to be.

Your domain knowledge about what the Military does is already handicapped if you're not in the Branch in question or in the Military at all. Considering you're probably a civilian and at the very least not in the Army (Home listed as NJ) you should probably take a step back and say "Hey where'd you find that out?" and not come at me like I'm full of ****.

ancient_serpent
02-21-2012, 08:56
[quote=ancient_serpent;18607415]I found this grey article, http://www.chuckhawks.com/beretta_M9_pistol.htm
As far as linking to credible articles go, your standard of proof between you proving my point and you proving yours seems to be different. All this article does is provide a third hand account of 1911 service life in relation to round count. I don't doubt the claim, either, but this isn't exactly a peer reviewed scholarly article either. That kind of stuff usually doesn't exist, isn't easy to find or lastly isn't exactly what you need it to be in regards to firearms or the inner workings of Military units that aren't mainline. You'll have to live without the annotated bibliography.

Friend, I specifically said it was a "grey" article. That means non-peer reviewed. Everything you said above is pretty much covered by listing it as a "grey" article. I'm not trying to argue with you.

But in the profession of arms, the only one that continues to issue them is one Marine command. CAG has no shortage of cash and got rid of them purely for performance related reasons.

Sure, I understand that and that's not the point.
I think we're getting off topic; I'm simply saying there is nothing wrong with a quality 1911. Every one of them I've had has worked as well as any Glock.
Further, I strongly suspect that MEUSOC has enough of a budget to change pistols if they so desired.


See above

shark_za
02-21-2012, 09:31
I have a small twist that does not usually come up in the 1911 vs Glock wars.

The only gun I would carry over a Glock, and the Glock "clones" like S&W M&P , would be a 10 shot polymer framed commander.
Designed in South Africa my friend got one before it went to Wilson and became the KZ-45.
I have a commander sized Norinco that I plan on putting together once he sells the frame to me. Its very light and thin and I will put top level components and sights on it, a local gunsmith built up its current form with a series 80 slide, I trust he will get it working 100%.
The full size has a nice stout recoil and the commander version will be interesting, it will happen but till then I am carrying a Glock.

Bren
02-21-2012, 11:34
Well, I sold my carry Glock (27) and was going to buy a different 27, but Saturday I spent the money on a Browning Hi Power. Not a 1911, but pretty close. My only complaint is that now I have a bunch of .40 ammo, my favorite caliber, and no .40 to shoot it. I'm going to have to get another Glock .40 soon. Now I'm arguing for Glock over 1911, while my carry guns are a 1911 in my truck and a Hi Power once I get to test it and buy a holster.

HAIL CAESAR
02-21-2012, 20:06
I love the 1911. I have for decades.

But more and more if I am not carrying a CCO then I am carrying a M&P 45c or a M&P 9. These have TS and have had trigger jobs.

I find them easier to carry the FS or Commander 1911's. I shoot them just as good. They are easily serviceable, very reliable, and VERY cheap with LE discount.

The M&Pc while smaller and lighter than a CCO holds 8 plus 1. The 1911 holds 7 plus 1, but that is only with mags that are more troublesome, usually they are 6 plus 1.

The M&P 9 is a 17 plus 1.

The extra rounds are very will appreciated and I have seen that (sometimes) extra rounds are very much needed.

Al

Ruggles
02-21-2012, 20:12
Well, I sold my carry Glock (27) and was going to buy a different 27, but Saturday I spent the money on a Browning Hi Power. Not a 1911, but pretty close. My only complaint is that now I have a bunch of .40 ammo, my favorite caliber, and no .40 to shoot it. I'm going to have to get another Glock .40 soon. Now I'm arguing for Glock over 1911, while my carry guns are a 1911 in my truck and a Hi Power once I get to test it and buy a holster.

BHP = World Class firearm :)

FLA45fan
02-21-2012, 20:14
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to suffer the embarrassment in front of my good friends, if it was reported in the media that I was carrying a Glock.

A Bulldog, maybe - but a Glock never:tongueout:

By the way did YOU win the Springer? You're very lucky with those raffles as I remember!

Ruggles
02-21-2012, 20:29
Ah the Glock vs 1911 thread, they always go so well :)

Who the crap cares where you handgun you just used to save you or your loved one lives ends up (in police custody for example) and for how long? I want the gun in hand that best serves me be it $500 Glock or $3000 Wilson.

Who cares if your carry gun get some wear and tear on it from carrying? I mean honestly it is a tool not a piece of art. Again be it $500 or $3000.

400,000 round thru a Glock before it needs any thing rebuilt, again who cares? That is 50 rounds per day for 20 years.....I do not know nor care if the 1911 can live up to that cause I am not shooting 50 rounds per day for 20 years :)

I think the 100 year combat proven 1911 can hang it there during a lifetime of shooting.

And torture tests.....oh good Lord torture test........I could care less if my 1911 can go 5,000 rounds with no cleaning or lube cause I have no plans to get into a 5,000 round gunfight. That kinda of test has no bearing on rather a gun is reliable (be it Glock or 1911) for say 100 rounds. I am fine with my carry gun going belly up and not working after 100 rounds in a gun fight cause I am already beating feet out of there after say 50 rounds! :)

OK my 1911 rant is over....for now :)

seanmac45
02-21-2012, 21:30
Wow, if you are going to introduce pure logic to the discussion, this thread will have nowhere left to turn. (LOL)

I will say that this is probably the MOST civil discussion of this topic that I have ever participated in.

cooden
02-22-2012, 05:32
Wow, if you are going to introduce pure logic to the discussion, this thread will have nowhere left to turn. (LOL)

I will say that this is probably the MOST civil discussion of this topic that I have ever participated in.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't understand all the "hatred" that comes out for certain guns. At the end of the day, YOU have to be comfortable with what you carry. If you can shoot well with it and it feels comfortable to YOU, then YOU have a good gun. It's funny to me, that on a gun website, that some people despise other guns so much. I love all guns--revolvers, 1911's, semi autos, shotguns, rifles, etc. I just don't have enough money to buy them all, lol.

When people talk about Kabooms, usually it is because of reloads. One round squibs and another round is fired right after.

To the OP, see what fits your daily pattern better. As I said before, I ended up going with the G19.

RMTactical
02-22-2012, 09:35
Owning both, I prefer the G19 for carry. Smaller, lighter, reliable, and carries a lot of rounds.

Madmax1010
02-22-2012, 11:54
1911's glocks they all go bang and are good choices for self defense.
Practice is the key.
The 1911 has worked for over 100 yrs the glock has worked for over 25 yrs pretty good track records wouldn't you say.

I carry a sig P220 stainless steel and when that's not on my hip
it's 1911.
I use a glock for a bug when I carry one.

1stMAW
02-22-2012, 11:59
A Colt 1911 with two extra (10) rounds magazines should take car of 99% of any hostile situation, any more than that you had damn well better have an assault rifle handy...plus you can kill a man with the butt of a 1911, but not with the "plastic wonder"....would be hard to beat a man to death with a 19 or 26....

BuckyP
02-22-2012, 12:22
A Colt 1911 with two extra (10) rounds magazines should take car of 99% of any hostile situation, any more than that you had damn well better have an assault rifle handy...plus you can kill a man with the butt of a 1911, but not with the "plastic wonder"....would be hard to beat a man to death with a 19 or 26....

I would imagine 10 round mags to be difficult to carry for CCW, even as spares. :dunno:

CKtCATM
02-22-2012, 14:00
I got rid of my Glock 23 because the ergo wasn't right for me. I swapped out to an XDm.40 full size because it felt good in my hand. But it was too big for comfortable daily carry here in the heat of TX so I swapped it out for an XDm45 compact. I love that gun! It'll be in my posession for years to come, I'm sure. On really hot days (read: 3 months of the year), I carry the EMP.

All that being said, I'll be adding a commander/cco to the rotation in the next few months. Still doing the ol' due dilligence. I have yet to decide between an EB Exectutive Carry, DW VBOB, DW CCO or a Les Baer Stinger. Once the "new kid" gets broken in and I feel it is 100%, my trusted XDm will be mostly in the night stand (rail + higher capacity).

To the OP: Glock or 1911? I'd choose 1911 for ergonomic reasons only. I have no hatred for poly handguns. But I'd choose the XDm over the Glock any day. And I'd choose .45 over 9mm any day. Those are my personal preferences.

Carry what fits you best, what you shoot well, and what you feel most comfortable with. Practice with what you carry. Join an IDPA league if you can. Most importantly, use your brain to keep yourself out of situations where you'd ever need to use your EDC of choice.

happyguy
02-22-2012, 14:20
Glock 19 or 26 for carry (or HK P7) with a S&W 442 on the off side. The Glock and the Smith together weigh less than a steel 1911.

I like the light weight, capacity, and reliability that Glock's are known for. The P7 is thin as a Kahr and it doesn't make me nervous when I carry it AIWB.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Tank44
02-22-2012, 17:33
I think you answered your own question. Like you, I shoot the 1911 better than any other gun. I don't think that 8 rounds is under capacity. If I cant get the job done with 8 rounds then I am in deep doo doo anyway. I don't mind the weight - its not a negative with me. I actually have less muzzle jump with my "heavy" 1911 than I ever did with a G19. Finally, 8 rounds of .45 ACP does me just fine. The G19 has its place, but my carry gun will always be a 1911.

FLA45fan
02-22-2012, 18:21
If that would embarrass you, you don't have enough shooting knowledge and experience. Once you get beyond picking up your opinions from the gun magazines, you'll feel different.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

OMG I can't believe I missed that one!!!!

OH JEEESH Bren - If ya only knew Mushinto!

Easy Cmdr. he knows not of WHO he speaks!

Kim

cciman
02-22-2012, 19:09
My Glock kung fu is better than your 1911 old style boxing any day,

:rofl:

Actually, I would like the 1911 if I were modeling for Playboy, or in the movies (like fatass Steven Ceeegall), but for real world action and everyday wear and tear, I like my G19 because I shoot both fine, and I carry G17 mags for backup. I can take on a small contingent of tangos with minimum reloads. I like the Tenifer finish, and the ability to tear it down easily without paying a gunsmith, and wash with soap and water and dry with a paper towel, and don't need to baby it. I can cut it up and modify the grip to my personal preferences, without worrying about marring the "beauty" of the killing device.

I own several 1911's, they are for bragging and show, and tool stroking, but the G19 is my workhorse. If I want extra HP and wear baggy clothes, the G30sf, with G21 mags, works too.

mingaa
02-22-2012, 19:17
Glock or other similar DOA or striker. I don't get 1911s - a novelty in today's firearm world IMHO.

Ruggles
02-22-2012, 19:28
My Glock kung fu is better than your 1911 old style boxing any day,

:rofl:

Actually, I would like the 1911 if I were modeling for Playboy, or in the movies (like fatass Steven Ceeegall), but for real world action and everyday wear and tear, I like my G19 because I shoot both fine, and I carry G17 mags for backup. I can take on a small contingent of tangos with minimum reloads. I like the Tenifer finish, and the ability to tear it down easily without paying a gunsmith, and wash with soap and water and dry with a paper towel, and don't need to baby it. I can cut it up and modify the grip to my personal preferences, without worrying about marring the "beauty" of the killing device.

I own several 1911's, they are for bragging and show, and tool stroking, but the G19 is my workhorse. If I want extra HP and wear baggy clothes, the G30sf, with G21 mags, works too.

See that is the beauty of the 1911, you can show it off and use it for the rough stuff. Can't do that with a Glock. :tongueout:

Ruble Noon
02-22-2012, 19:43
Well, I sold my carry Glock (27) and was going to buy a different 27, but Saturday I spent the money on a Browning Hi Power. Not a 1911, but pretty close. My only complaint is that now I have a bunch of .40 ammo, my favorite caliber, and no .40 to shoot it. I'm going to have to get another Glock .40 soon. Now I'm arguing for Glock over 1911, while my carry guns are a 1911 in my truck and a Hi Power once I get to test it and buy a holster.

Congrats on the Hi Power, they are great guns.

HAIL CAESAR
02-22-2012, 20:07
My Glock kung fu is better than your 1911 old style boxing any day,

:rofl:

Actually, I would like the 1911 if I were modeling for Playboy, or in the movies (like fatass Steven Ceeegall), but for real world action and everyday wear and tear, I like my G19 because I shoot both fine, and I carry G17 mags for backup. I can take on a small contingent of tangos with minimum reloads. I like the Tenifer finish, and the ability to tear it down easily without paying a gunsmith, and wash with soap and water and dry with a paper towel, and don't need to baby it. I can cut it up and modify the grip to my personal preferences, without worrying about marring the "beauty" of the killing device.

I own several 1911's, they are for bragging and show, and tool stroking, but the G19 is my workhorse. If I want extra HP and wear baggy clothes, the G30sf, with G21 mags, works too.

(If you tone that down about 6 notches)

That is about how I feel anymore. Except substitute "Glock 19" with "M&P".

MD357
02-22-2012, 23:00
I guess my point was, most people know the "kaboom" rarely has anything to do with the gun. .

No, that excuse is pretty tired and if anything I think people know that it actually WAS the design of the gun or rather the barrel. :supergrin:

Otherwise, why do you see a progression in support in glock .40 barrels?

Mushinto
02-23-2012, 00:42
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

OMG I can't believe I missed that one!!!!

OH JEEESH Bren - If ya only knew Mushinto!

Easy Cmdr. he knows not of WHO he speaks!

Kim

LOL, I guess I missed it too. I have a habit of ignoring trivialities. Thanks, Kim, hope all is well.

And, no I didn't win the Springer, darn it.

fnfalman
02-23-2012, 00:59
Glock or other similar DOA or striker. I don't get 1911s - a novelty in today's firearm world IMHO.

Not all of us wana hang out with Fifty Cents or play dress-up soldierboy after 24-hrs worth of on-line Rainbow Six video game.

Bren
02-23-2012, 04:19
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

OMG I can't believe I missed that one!!!!

OH JEEESH Bren - If ya only knew Mushinto!

Easy Cmdr. he knows not of WHO he speaks!

Kim

Feel free to tell me, then.:upeyes:

SC Tiger
02-23-2012, 06:42
A witty post for an The only unit/command (MARSOC) I know of that still issues out 1911s is the MEUSOC pistol and that's only because they're poor but know its still better than your average issued Beretta. That and Marine Corp equipment procurement is always something to scratch your head at.


Don't forget that the Marines build their own 1911s. Parts alone (if you also had to buy either a Colt or Caspian frame) probably would be over $1500, not to mention the gunsmith's labor in fitting them all together.

I mostly carry a Kahr PM9, Ruger LCP or Smith 60 but I have carried my Glock 22. I sold my Springfield 1911 mostly because it was a piece of junk (though I think the previous owner may have played amateur gunsmith on it). A good 1911 that will function reliably with SD ammo will cost about twice what a Glock does and won't defend you any better.

ancient_serpent
02-23-2012, 07:07
Don't forget that the Marines build their own 1911s. Parts alone (if you also had to buy either a Colt or Caspian frame) probably would be over $1500, not to mention the gunsmith's labor in fitting them all together.

I mostly carry a Kahr PM9, Ruger LCP or Smith 60 but I have carried my Glock 22. I sold my Springfield 1911 mostly because it was a piece of junk (though I think the previous owner may have played amateur gunsmith on it). A good 1911 that will function reliably with SD ammo will cost about twice what a Glock does and won't defend you any better.

My 1911's definately were not cheap. That is a clear advantage of the Glock pistol, but not the first one I considered when buying.
FWIW, I love Glocks. My wife carries a Glock 23, my middle brother carries a 17 and I occasionally CCW a 19. Been trying to get my mom interested in CCW, will probably have her try some Glocks first.
The trick is that no, it may not defend you any better, mine just fit me better.
Sorry to hear about your Springfield; I think that amateur 'smiths are a major reason a number of 1911's get a bad rap.

GJ1981
02-23-2012, 08:13
I sold my Springfield 1911 mostly because it was a piece of junk (though I think the previous owner may have played amateur gunsmith on it). A good 1911 that will function reliably with SD ammo will cost about twice what a Glock does and won't defend you any better.

Pretty much my exact feelings. My SA's were out of their Custom Shop, cost 4-5 times the average plastic pistol, and still failed to run out of the box. Pathetic, and is the reason I'm hesitant to mess with any 1911 for CCW.

My experiences with 1911's the last year or two made ME realize there are better choices for ME, all I need is a pistol that is reliable AND durable...I'm tired of spending large $ and getting poor performance.

3000fps
02-23-2012, 12:32
durrrrrrr hurrr


http://i41.tinypic.com/29uy8lf.jpg


But what about the grips!!! You can't make the grips on a Glock look cool!!!!

drew4691
02-24-2012, 05:35
glock 19, no doubt.

flieger67
02-24-2012, 05:44
But what about the grips!!! You can't make the grips on a Glock look cool!!!!

However, basic black is good for occasions from casual to formal without looking over- or under-dressed.

And if someone causes you to need to pull out your concealed weapon, that person isn't likely to notice the look of the grips. He'll likely to be more concerned with the end of the barrel. ;^)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

samarai
02-25-2012, 17:27
You make some very valid points. I've been in this very same position in the past when I was a cop still on the job.

I've got more than a few 1911's and love them all, especially my beloved Wilson Combat CQB. I also liked the g19 as the frame size, capacity, and overall length and width which also includes the weight, but was not so enamored with the 9mm round although through the years the loading for this particular round has gotten a whole lot better.

What I did was to somewhat compromise, if you want to call it like that, by going to the g23. Same frame size and weight as the g19 (excluding those bigger .40 cal rounds in the magazine) but with a bigger bullet with better ballistics.

The only other possible thing I can think of is to try and get your hands onto an aluminum framed 1911. Colt mnfg. just came out with a full sized, 5 inch frame Gov't model that looks really promising. The commander size in an aluminum frame has been around for quite some time and has a pretty good reputation, although I like the 5 inchers myself. Supposedly they are said to be more reliable versus the commander sized pistols.

In any event, good luck with your choice. Thank God we still have the ability to make these choices...

Teecher45
02-25-2012, 19:31
First, let me say that I agree with the many posts that have said you need to shoot them both before you decide. If you like the 1911 better then spend the money to get a good one. Take it to the range and shoot it until you absolutely believe in it then you are ready to go. If you decide on the Glock then use the extra money on ammo, mags, and training, then you are ready to go.
A lot of people are going to tell you they like the width of the 1911 so much that they will put-up with the weight. About a year ago a few friends on Glock Talk helped me with a little experiment. We measured a 1911 in a leather holster (which is used in most cases with 1911's) and a Glock in a kydex holster (again, used in most cases). The Glock ended-up being thinner in that combination and a lot lighter. But that's just one point of many.
Why does it have to be a 9 or .45? Look at the 23 or 27. The ballistics of the .40 is very good and the price (in my area at least) is very comparable to the 9. Best of both worlds IMHO.

fowler
02-28-2012, 04:33
If it has to work 100% get the g19.

GOOFA
02-28-2012, 23:18
At times I carry a 1911, but i'm most comfortable with any of my Glock's.

SC Tiger
02-29-2012, 10:44
My 1911's definately were not cheap. That is a clear advantage of the Glock pistol, but not the first one I considered when buying.
FWIW, I love Glocks. My wife carries a Glock 23, my middle brother carries a 17 and I occasionally CCW a 19. Been trying to get my mom interested in CCW, will probably have her try some Glocks first.
The trick is that no, it may not defend you any better, mine just fit me better.
Sorry to hear about your Springfield; I think that amateur 'smiths are a major reason a number of 1911's get a bad rap.

Some things on that gun (the rear sight that wouldn't stay in place, the clocking extractor, and the crappy machining of the top of the slide) were SA's fault. What I don't know is whether it came with the original magazines and original springs.

Like others have said, a 1911 is a design. Executed properly it is very good. Executed improperly it might make a decent hammer. Just like anything else.

As far as the Glock being ugly, just put it in a fancy holster that covers most of it.

brickboy240
02-29-2012, 14:42
Skip the G19 and look at the Walther PPQ.

It is the polymer pistol that points like a 1911 and has a MUCH better trigger than any polymer pistol.

Besides, with all the QC problems at Glock lately....this might be the way to go.

I went in search of my 3rd Glock (a 19) and am now re-considering this and going with the PPQ.

Yeah...it was that nice!

- brickboy240

flyingillini
02-29-2012, 15:21
I love my 1911s, but I carry my G19 ever day. The reasons are for weight and mag capacity.

I shoot the Glocks just as well as the 1911s.

GOOFA
02-29-2012, 18:13
Besides, with all the QC problems at Glock lately....

I'm curious to know what are the problems that Glock is having. Please enlighten me.

seanmac45
02-29-2012, 18:20
Just do a search under Gen 4 ejection

GOOFA
02-29-2012, 22:10
Just do a search under Gen 4 ejection
The reply was addressed to brickboy240 but since you felt it necessary to answer for him, are you saying that the fact that Glock provided a RSA for the 40 S&W and the 9mm to be the same and the fact that most buyers of the G19 Gen4 exhibited no problems whatsoever. Now, users who used inexpensive 9mm 115 gr fmj ammo may have experienced weak ejections due to the use of subpar ammo and the fact that the RSA was to strong for that ammo. And you call this a QC problem? I don't think so. Since this did happen, Glock was offering their customers a new lighter RSA at no charge. Glock haters started the rumour that the Gen4's were defective. Defective?, I don't think so. Today, most training in 9mm whether it by LE or the Military are done with 124 gr or 147 gr ammunition. These grains had no problems with ejections. Glock tests all 9mm using 147gr ammo.