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mdt62
02-17-2012, 10:59
I've got the itch to do another build. I'm thinking about doing a pistol but I'm getting conflicting reports about building one legally. My plan was to build up a stripped reciever and buy a pistol upper built online. Is that legal? I live in ohio, not sure if thats relivent as I believe this falls under federal law. Looking forward to getting schooled.

rjrivero
02-17-2012, 11:52
Your plan is perfectly fine.

The key is to get a receiver that has never been built into a complete rifle. If you're starting with a "virgin" receiver, then you can build it into a pistol.

I know you didn't ask, but because of ATF Opinion Letter 2011-4, if you decide to, you can take your completed pistol, and then build it into a complete RIFLE, and then build it back into a pistol again without violating NFA Rules. The key is to build it into a PISTOL FIRST!

How can they "prove" that it was a pistol first? Personally, I would take a picture of the pistol sitting on today's newspaper and keep it stored with the pistol, just to be safe. Makes a good reference point, imvho.

ScrappyDoo
02-17-2012, 13:27
I have a question I have long wondered...

Are there any PISTON AR Pistol uppers?

The reason I ask is because , the receiver extension that sticks off the back of AR Pistols, that is there because the buffer is necessary to make the AR work properly right?

So I can buy a stripped receiver and never put a stock on it, and then proceed to go ahead and build an AR Pistol right? No problems? And I can order any pistol upper and have it sent right ot my house in the mail. that is all kosher right? BUT- I am wondering if it's possible to NOT have that receiver extension sticking off the back because it just ticks me off the way it looks.

So a PISTON Upper would eliminate the need for the buffer, therefore eliminate the need for the receiver extension , right? [ if my logic and thought process is flawed/wrong please show me thnk you much].

Also- is there a legal classification to "pistol" AR uppers, i.e. if I have the lower receiver and never put a stock on it, can I then get any length upper for my 'pistol build" {i.e. an upper marketed on a website as a 'carbine' upper in 10.5" etc.} or only ones that say Pistol? Bec. on the RRA Site for example, you can order 7.5 or 10.5' pistol uppers. On BCM's site there is no pistol upper section that I see, no 7,5" ones that Isee, but I see 10.5" carbine uppers, is it possible / legal to use them/


Ok thanks much appreciate it.

WoodenPlank
02-17-2012, 13:42
The reason I ask is because , the receiver extension that sticks off the back of AR Pistols, that is there because the buffer is necessary to make the AR work properly right?

So I can buy a stripped receiver and never put a stock on it, and then proceed to go ahead and build an AR Pistol right? No problems? And I can order any pistol upper and have it sent right ot my house in the mail. that is all kosher right? BUT- I am wondering if it's possible to NOT have that receiver extension sticking off the back because it just ticks me off the way it looks.

So a PISTON Upper would eliminate the need for the buffer, therefore eliminate the need for the receiver extension , right? [ if my logic and thought process is flawed/wrong please show me thnk you much].

Also- is there a legal classification to "pistol" AR uppers, i.e. if I have the lower receiver and never put a stock on it, can I then get any length upper for my 'pistol build" {i.e. an upper marketed on a website as a 'carbine' upper in 10.5" etc.} or only ones that say Pistol? Bec. on the RRA Site for example, you can order 7.5 or 10.5' pistol uppers. On BCM's site there is no pistol upper section that I see, no 7,5" ones that Isee, but I see 10.5" carbine uppers, is it possible / legal to use them/


Ok thanks much appreciate it.

Most piston uppers still use the buffer tube. The only AR piston gun I have seen that didn't was the Para TTR.

ScrappyDoo
02-17-2012, 14:04
Ohh that I didn't know. I mean I can live with it. I guess my whole idea behind it, i would think in my personal view and use and envisioning, I'd want to have the AR pistol to be able (and in fact I would probably only use it for this reason) to hang on a front-carrying sling. I'd want to use a sling plate end cap or the like, and use a singlepoint type sling to have the pistol directly in front of me when needed.

I personally like the Magpul MS/2, haven't yet tried the MS/3, but would also someday buy the Vicker's sling because he says its so much better for an AR I'd like to experience it.

But anyway, having a nice AR Pistol available on a singlepoint sling up front on your chest area, easily in hands grasp, is like a civilian solutiion to an MP5PK - not quiet the same thing I know but still... either you get the booooming 5.56 round (And resulting fireball of course) or I guess you could make you a 9mm AR pistol right? That might be cool too.

ScrappyDoo
02-17-2012, 14:13
Would you believe I was Googling some AR pistol topics and this thread already pops up on Google as like result #5 or something like that, LOL. That is truly amazing. Technology these days.

WoodenPlank
02-17-2012, 14:14
Ohh that I didn't know. I mean I can live with it. I guess my whole idea behind it, i would think in my personal view and use and envisioning, I'd want to have the AR pistol to be able (and in fact I would probably only use it for this reason) to hang on a front-carrying sling. I'd want to use a sling plate end cap or the like, and use a singlepoint type sling to have the pistol directly in front of me when needed.

I personally like the Magpul MS/2, haven't yet tried the MS/3, but would also someday buy the Vicker's sling because he says its so much better for an AR I'd like to experience it.

But anyway, having a nice AR Pistol available on a singlepoint sling up front on your chest area, easily in hands grasp, is like a civilian solutiion to an MP5PK - not quiet the same thing I know but still... either you get the booooming 5.56 round (And resulting fireball of course) or I guess you could make you a 9mm AR pistol right? That might be cool too.

The 9mm uppers require buffer tubes, as well. If you're really determined to do something like this, you could look into getting a custom manufacturer to build you an HK53 clone as a pistol with a receiver endcap instead of a stock. HKParts has 8.2 and 5.3 inch barrels in stock currently. It wouldn't be a cheap build, but it's doable.

68DARKHORSE
02-17-2012, 15:52
How can they "prove" that it was a pistol first? Personally, I would take a picture of the pistol sitting on today's newspaper and keep it stored with the pistol, just to be safe. Makes a good reference point, imvho.

Email the picture to yourself so 5 years from now noone can say you just took a new picture with an old newspaper.

68DARKHORSE
02-17-2012, 16:07
What is the appeal of the AR pistol?

I really hate the buffer tube sticking out. Wouldn’t it conceal just as easy with a stock fully collapsed? Leaving the stock off just to avoid the SBR stamp? Aside from range, is there a big advantage over carrying a Glock 20 with a long barrel?.

On edit: I can see barrier penetration as an advantage.

ScrappyDoo
02-17-2012, 16:22
Another question - do you have to buy an upper that says " AR PISTOL" etc or is it , as long as the lower receiver has never ever had a stock connected to it ( and I also read. Can't even have a stock around it in the house etc as that could be readily connected to it , im not sure if that's true or not ) and you can buy whichever upper you what to make it an AR " pistol ". Like I saw an Adams Arms 7.5" " PDW" upper that looked like it would make a great AR pistol upper but it is surely designed for a SBR application.

And of course there are so many uppers designed for a SBR setup that would make a great AR Pistol setup and they dpmt specific AR PISTOL uppers. Just wondering.

WoodenPlank
02-17-2012, 22:57
What is the appeal of the AR pistol?

I really hate the buffer tube sticking out. Wouldn’t it conceal just as easy with a stock fully collapsed? Leaving the stock off just to avoid the SBR stamp? Aside from range, is there a big advantage over carrying a Glock 20 with a long barrel?.

On edit: I can see barrier penetration as an advantage.

The no stamp bit is exactly why. Some people can't, won't, or don't want to go through the work to do a Form 1 or 4.

Another question - do you have to buy an upper that says " AR PISTOL" etc or is it , as long as the lower receiver has never ever had a stock connected to it ( and I also read. Can't even have a stock around it in the house etc as that could be readily connected to it , im not sure if that's true or not ) and you can buy whichever upper you what to make it an AR " pistol ". Like I saw an Adams Arms 7.5" " PDW" upper that looked like it would make a great AR pistol upper but it is surely designed for a SBR application.

And of course there are so many uppers designed for a SBR setup that would make a great AR Pistol setup and they dpmt specific AR PISTOL uppers. Just wondering.

Upper does not have to be marked at all. If you have a pistol buffer tube on the lower, a stock can't connect to it anyway, so that's not a concern. Just don't have a loose short upper laying around if you have rifle lowers.

68DARKHORSE
02-18-2012, 11:58
Is the PLR-16 not a good alternative?
No buffer tube. Maybe it's cheap for a reason?
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f18/29761d1308421849-kel-tec-plr-16-best-pdw-kel_plr_wacc.jpg
http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_7b9e48a1a2d2e4314dcd1cd501b18eafCIMG3835.jpg

faawrenchbndr
02-18-2012, 12:09
Those are a far cry from an AR15........I would not own one!

mac66
02-18-2012, 12:31
An AR pistol just to have a 5.56 pistol doesn't make a lot of sense. An AR pistol to have a pseudo SBR does make some sense. In my state we can't have SBRs, but we can have AR pistols and can carry them on our concealed pistol permits. Therefore a 10 or 11.5" bbl AR pistol with a carbine buffer tube actually works pretty well. You can shoulder the tube just like a short stock. I can easily hit a 10" gong at 100+ yards with mine. It is very handy.

Also, be aware that new stripped AR receivers are listed as "other" on the 4473. That means (in my state anyway) it has to be purchased like a pistol even if you intend to make it into a rifle. If however you make it into a pistol first you can then switch back and forth from pistol to rifle back to pistol. If you make it into a rifle first, it will always be a rifle an can't be made into a pistol.*


* I am sure that I will hear from people who disagree, but it has been checked, checked again and checked again and there are ATF rulings on it. An AR pistol is a good thing to have IMO.

mdt62
02-18-2012, 19:32
Thanks everyone for your replies. After speaking with my local arms dealer, as you've all said, my plan is perfectly fine. I like the "send yourselve an email" idea btw. To answer the few of you asking why I want one, I ask you why not?? Practical? No, but my .500 isnt either so...

WoodenPlank
02-18-2012, 19:40
Thanks everyone for your replies. After speaking with my local arms dealer, as you've all said, my plan is perfectly fine. I like the "send yourselve an email" idea btw. To answer the few of you asking why I want one, I ask you why not?? Practical? No, but my .500 isnt either so...

Nothing wrong with wanting one. The only other thing I'd suggest to be aware of is that sub-10" barrels tend to have reliability issues, especially with weaker ammo. The Noveske KX3 can really help with that.

68DARKHORSE
02-19-2012, 10:18
In my state we can't have SBRs, but we can have AR pistols and can carry them on our concealed pistol permits. Therefore a 10 or 11.5" bbl AR pistol with a carbine buffer tube actually works pretty well. You can shoulder the tube just like a short stock. I can easily hit a 10" gong at 100+ yards with mine. It is very handy.

Thanks. With your state laws and the fact that you can shoulder it makes it sound very appealing. I get it now.

ScrappyDoo
02-19-2012, 11:38
I am liking this Adams Arms PDW Upper, there is a PDW and a PDW "Tactical " one which is a bunch more expensive, but the regular "PDW 7.5" Upper is piston drive, with a little quad rail, and is like $730 or so on randomly found Google'd store sites.

jhooten
02-19-2012, 15:47
The problem is the word stripped. A stripped receiver implies one that has had parts installed then removed. I had one ATF agent tell me that if a rifle buffer tube had ever been installed, just the buffer tube no other parts, that receiver becomes a rifle for ever. He also said that if the lower is marked pistol and has a rifle buffer tube on it is rifle and cannot be made into a pistol.

How would "they" know?
"Someone once your friend, who now has an axe to grind."

Don't like the buffer tube>
http://olyarms.net/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/ar15-pistols/full-oa-93.jpg

http://olyarms.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.v8.tpl&product_id=37&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5

jmoln
02-21-2012, 14:46
I don't know about pistol uppers but Spike will sell you a pistol lower. Its marked "pistol" and comes with a tube installed. The difference is you can mount a tube but not a stock. GSE also makes parts and kits.

Ditto on the reply to DarkHorse about a pistol vs SBR - the extra hassle and cost of the stamp is the barrier. Yes I'd rather have a full stock to snuggle up to but I wanted the concealability (not on my person but in a bag) for transport. See my report at http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403232

eracer
02-21-2012, 14:54
I am liking this Adams Arms PDW Upper, there is a PDW and a PDW "Tactical " one which is a bunch more expensive, but the regular "PDW 7.5" Upper is piston drive, with a little quad rail, and is like $730 or so on randomly found Google'd store sites.I got the PDW, and it is a piston upper, but it still requires a buffer.

RRA makes a pistol upper called the LAR-PDS that does not require a buffer.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/rpds12.gif



I should have bought that one. I was under the mistaken (uninformed) notion that ALL piston guns did away with the buffer. I bought the Adams, and I know it's a quality upper - but I really wanted a pistol without the buffer tube sticking out of the back...I might sell the Adams and buy the RRA - just because.

ScrappyDoo
02-22-2012, 06:41
Can you buy that RRA as an upper only?

Also how do you feel about the AA PDW upper , buffer problem and not being exactly what you wanted , nonwithstanding, thanks much