G21 vs G17 for Home Defense in regards to SOUNDWAVES [Archive] - Glock Talk

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SystemaEncephale
02-17-2012, 23:04
Alright guys, I understand the pro's and con's to many of the popular handgun cartridges for home defense use. However, what I don't understand is how the calibers compare in regards to sound in a home defense environment.

What I mean by that is, I have a G21 and a G17 and I prefer the 17 for home defense for 2 reasons. First being it's capacity, second being it isn't nearly as loud as a .45.

I have read many posts where people are considering a .45 Glock for their home defense needs. Yet I never read that one of their concerns is that of how loud the gun is once fired.

I've fired my 21 outside, after the first shot my left ear is ringing. If I fire 2 mags, my left ear will ring for days. That is outside. If I fired it inside, the sound would be all most twice as loud.

It doesn't seem smart to have a firearm for home defense that will cause you to go deaf after firing it.

So, after all that ranting, am I missing something here or does this just simply not occur in most people's minds?

PrecisionRifleman
02-17-2012, 23:16
I think that will be the least of your concern if you need to fire on someone in your home. When the dogs start barking and I'm concerned about someone being in the back yard or something like that I always favor grabbing the 870 12 gauge.

Falcon78
02-17-2012, 23:18
A Glock 26 firing 147 grain rounds will be less loud than the 17 because it will be around 1000fps and therefore subsonic. The .45 is also subsonic but the larger diameter outweighs the difference of the sonic boom.

Glock Authority
02-17-2012, 23:28
Well if you're shooting outside, I would definitely be wearing ear protection and I don't think it will matter much if you shoot a 9mm or .45 indoors because your ears are gonna ring anyway and like the other guy said, that's probably the least of your worries at that point...

barth
02-17-2012, 23:52
I'm pretty sensitive to loud noises.
At the range I upgraded to 33db ultra ear muffs because the sound bothered me.

Unfortunately,
I've had the misfortune of having to fire a 40 S&W, in a small closed room, with no ear protection.

The weirdness was is wasn't loud at all.
No pain, no ringing - nothing.
Something about adrenaline I guess.

This whole thing about how loud your gun is in a house is highly overrated.
Use what you're proficient with and don't worry about that...

SolidBrass
02-17-2012, 23:56
If I'm shooting at a man in my home I don't care how loud it is myself. Loud will scare the hell out of them and while they lay on the floor bleeding out because I used the massive .45 or 10mm his ears will be ringing too.

On that note. I know nothing about good ear protection. What is the best sub $100 earmuff noise suppressors ear muffs?

SystemaEncephale
02-17-2012, 23:57
I don't mean it as a concern but more along the lines of having all your senses intact as much as possible. I am not sure if firing a .45 vs a 9mm would be the difference in causing the average person to go def or not in a home defense situation. But if it is then wouldn't it be better to be able to hear your surroundings when you are in such a situation?

barth
02-17-2012, 23:58
I know nothing about good ear protection. What is the best sub $100 earmuff noise suppressors ear muffs?

Pro-Ears Ultra 33 Earmuffs (NRR 33 dB) $36.49 + shipping
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1871222091/pro-ears-ultra-33-earmuffs-nrr-33-db
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/553/553514.jpg

SystemaEncephale
02-17-2012, 23:59
I'm pretty sensitive to loud noises.
At the range I upgraded to 33db ultra ear muffs because the sound bothered me.

Unfortunately,
I've had the misfortune of having to fire a 40 S&W, in a small closed room, with no ear protection.

The weirdness was is wasn't loud at all.
No pain, no ringing - nothing.
Something about adrenaline I guess.

This whole thing about how loud your gun is in a house is highly overrated.
Use what you're proficient with and don't worry about that...


That's really interesting and a valid point. I didn't consider the effect of adrenaline.

9mm +p+
02-18-2012, 03:24
Ummm, if you are in a real situation you will not hear the report, trust me.

gdiddy
02-18-2012, 04:21
In spite of what you think, the report from any caliber insdie most modern insulated homes is much less than you will expect. Some time ago, I had a ND with a 9mm indoors. I was surprised at the softness of the report. A family member standing in the yard did not even hear it. There are so many items in a home that tend to absorb sound that your concerns are not founded. I also agree with those that say when fired at a time of great stress, the caliber or decibels of the report will be of little importance.

Sammael
02-18-2012, 04:46
Ummm, if you are in a real situation you will not hear the report, trust me.

This.

alwaysshootin
02-18-2012, 04:55
Ummm, if you are in a real situation you will not hear the report, trust me.

This^^^^^^

Use a G20 hunting, and even though I carry plugs, didn't have time to install them. No notice of loud report. Although outside, imagine that in a life or death scenario, the report will go almost unnoticed!

eracer
02-18-2012, 05:00
That's really interesting and a valid point. I didn't consider the effect of adrenaline.
Check out Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's book, 'On Combat'.

I don't agree with everything he writes, but it's a good book, full of data about that very subject, namely, altered senses during high-stress combat situations.

As far as shooting without hearing protection in other situations - keep it up and you definitely won't need to worry about, because you will lose your hearing, whether you're shooting a 9mm, .45, or .300 Win Mag.

G30Mike
02-18-2012, 05:18
Mossberg 12 gauge, 2 shots in a kitchen/hallway with high ceilings. Still heard my buddy say "what the f just happened".

Adrenaline and hightened awareness does amazing things to the body. I believe its called auditory exclusion.

3/4Flap
02-18-2012, 06:57
The whole issue is irrelevant.

Before we razed the old house I spent a day wandering about inside it with my Ithaca 87 shotgun and a pile of various shells ranging from light target/quail to 3" Magnum buckshot loads. I wore heavy safety glasses and an old Civil Defence helmet but no hearing protection.

I don't recall how many rounds I fired that day but it was quite enough to pretty well tear the place apart.

And after all that I can still hear her tell me to take out the garbage...

Presscheck40
02-18-2012, 07:19
Statistically when a police officer has had to use his or her weapon they could not tell you how many rounds were fired or even if it made a sound. Your body shuts Down minor body functions to supply blood to major muscles to preform. We had an officer involved in a shooting inside a small house and when asked how many rounds were fired she answered three come to find out it was 13 and all were within an 8 inch group. Another officer in a different shooting was asked how many rounds he fired and he answered 10. Come to find out he fired 3 and they were all into the utility poll hi was using for cover.

3/4Flap
02-18-2012, 07:36
I don't doubt Presschecks point at all.

A number of years ago I was involved in a fight with a bear. I had only a .44 revolver. The entire scene was total mayhem, with screaming of dogs, growling of bear, high speed movement of all involved. At one point in the fight I was mixed up with the bear at my feet and pushed the gun into its chest and fired what I thought were two rounds, then got the gun up to its head and pulled the trigger with nothing but a "CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-CLICK" being the result. As I tried to reload my then 13 or so year old son dove over my shoulder and more or less "bayoneted" the bear with his rifle, a 7x57R with a shot to its chest which finished the deal.

After the panting was over and we rehashed the whole affair he told me he distinctly heard what sounded like a 3-shot burst from our Stempel submachine gun when I fired into the chest of the bear.

What I "felt" and thought was "Boom-Boom" was actually "Boom-Boom-Boom".

I do not recall if I even heard the fast double action shots but if I did I certainly wasn't doing the simple math very well.

Like I said earlier, the whole issue is irrelevant unless you plan on shooting indoors regularly without hearing protection. My wife is pretty understanding of my gun nuttism, but even she takes a dim view of regular gunfire in the living room...

BulldawgGlock
02-18-2012, 07:59
I'm not concerned at all about how "loud" my nightstand gun is. I feel pretty certain that in the event that I had to draw down on someone inside of my house, noise is going to be pretty far down on the priority list.

Landric
02-18-2012, 08:10
While it is true that in the event of a high stress shooting you won't notice the report due to auditory exclusion, that doesn't mean your hearing won't be damaged. There are two basic solutions to this:

1- Get a suppressor for you home defense gun(s)

2- Have amplified hearing protection in the same spot as your HD gun, in the event you think it might be necessary, put on the hearing protection when you pick up the gun.

vram74
02-18-2012, 08:21
Ummm, if you are in a real situation you will not hear the report, trust me.



"report" :upeyes:

Bill Lumberg
02-18-2012, 08:28
After you fire anything 9mm or up indoors, you're going to be shut down. Caliber isn't a consideration. Anyone who thinks a .45 is going to be noticeably better is chock full of internet wisdom, not the real world kind. Alright guys, I understand the pro's and con's to many of the popular handgun cartridges for home defense use. However, what I don't understand is how the calibers compare in regards to sound in a home defense environment.

What I mean by that is, I have a G21 and a G17 and I prefer the 17 for home defense for 2 reasons. First being it's capacity, second being it isn't nearly as loud as a .45.

I have read many posts where people are considering a .45 Glock for their home defense needs. Yet I never read that one of their concerns is that of how loud the gun is once fired.

I've fired my 21 outside, after the first shot my left ear is ringing. If I fire 2 mags, my left ear will ring for days. That is outside. If I fired it inside, the sound would be all most twice as loud.

It doesn't seem smart to have a firearm for home defense that will cause you to go deaf after firing it.

So, after all that ranting, am I missing something here or does this just simply not occur in most people's minds?

3/4Flap
02-18-2012, 08:31
After you fire anything 9mm or up indoors, you're going to be shut down.

What do you mean by that?

Bill Lumberg
02-18-2012, 08:34
Have temporarily notably limited hearing..... And probably a bit of ringing. And you're in line to get a Christmas card from the tinnitus fairy.

3/4Flap
02-18-2012, 08:46
Have temporarily notably limited hearing..... And probably a bit of ringing. And you're in line to get a Christmas card from the tinnitus fairy.

Oh.

Not necessarily.

At least not in my experience.

When I was a kid I grew up in NJ and shooting opportunities were limited. My buddies and I waited till my parents were gone from home and shot our shotguns inside the attached one-car garage of our house. We were curious about the ability of a duck load to penetrate an M1 steel pot {it didn't}. No temporary or otherwise loss of hearing occured.

Before I moved to RSA in '89, I had a Marlin .30-30 I was bringing with me I wanted rough zeroed as I had just put a peep rear and replacement front sight on. Stuck temprarily in NJ again...I "zeroed" it in the basement of my parent's small home at about 12 feet range into the wood pile. No problems there, either.

And a few other experiences of a similar note and strain.

LOTS of people have fired rifles and handguns inside indoor ranges without hearing protection and granted, most have insulated walls, but...

No, your hearing does not disappear instantaneously when subjected to gunfire indoors.

At least mine doesn't. Or my friends' or acquaintances. I would absolutely NOT say that is a given.

3/4Flap
02-18-2012, 08:51
BTW: Long term or repeated expsoure to gunfire IS of course damaging to the ears, but for those of us who have shot a lot without hearing protection, I really think the issue has become somewhat clouded a bit. Overstated, really. Up till roughly WW2 many rifle competitors routinely shot THOUSANDS of rounds over a lifetime of competition without hearing protection and of course many suffered damage over time. But it took time.

But to suggest that hearing a few shots Ear Muffless guarantees hearing loss, etc, well, is stretching it.

There are circumstances where hearing loss can occur in one shot, like firing a .300 Ultra Mag inside a meat locker with the door shut, but such occurences are sort of relatively uncommon.

Bill Lumberg
02-18-2012, 08:53
I've never found it to be any other way. It is far more common than otherwise. I'm not speaking of ranges, but of houses and buildings. And specifically of handguns, not rifles. That said, you and your exceptional friends would definitely be good folks to have along on a raid or training evolution, if handgun fire in a cinderblock hall or room does not significantly dampen your auditory acuity.

3/4Flap
02-18-2012, 09:02
That said, you and your exceptional friends would definitely be good folks to have along on a raid or training evolution, if handgun fire in a cinderblock hall or room does not significantly dampen your auditory acuity.

Not hardly.

A normal conversation can be had and heard after firing quite a number of pistol rounds indoors. I really don't quite understand the "mystery" of it all being expressed here.

I used to regularly shoot my Colt Official Police .38 revolver in my basement and it was really no big deal, and when the wife called me to come to dinner I was never late.

hikerpaddler
02-18-2012, 10:10
Lumberg is correct. I don't have magic jesus ears. Don't work with anyone who does. Common pistol calibers fired indoors without pro leave most folks deafened for a minute or two to all but very loud noises. No mystery, just the way it is for most.

Ryobi
02-18-2012, 10:24
I don't shoot in my basement. But I did stay in a holiday inn express many times in my travels in LE and during attendance of and teaching of quite a few firearms training events over the years. Indoors, particularly in house or office type areas, close quarters pistol fire usually causes a front row rock concert style hearing dampening, much as Bill describes, for 1-5 minutes or so. Sheetrock is bad, but walls constructed of cinder block or slab concrete are worse. None of this is a concern for a home defense pistol. No more a concern than worrying about carpet staining after a shooting. Just not a presenting priority. I've never found it to be any other way. It is far more common than otherwise. I'm not speaking of ranges, but of houses and buildings. And specifically of handguns, not rifles. That said, you and your exceptional friends would definitely be good folks to have along on a raid or training evolution, if handgun fire in a cinderblock hall or room does not significantly dampen your auditory acuity.

GRT45
02-18-2012, 10:36
What I mean by that is, I have a G21 and a G17 and I prefer the 17 for home defense for 2 reasons. First being it's capacity, second being it isn't nearly as loud as a .45.

I don't doubt that in your experience the noise generated by the G21 45ACP seems louder than the G17 9mm.

The published data I've seen is counter-intuitive:
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA⁽Ļ⁾

.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB

Reference:
1. Gunfire Sound Levels (http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml) provided by earinc.com from data originally published by Dr. Krammer, Ph.D., Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana

Keep in mind the dB scale is logarithmic, not linear. For example, an increase of 3 dB is a doubling of the power or intensity of the sound, and an increase of 10 dB means the sound intensity is increased by a factor of 10 times which would be perceived by the human ear to be roughly twice as loud in volume.

The specific pistols used by Dr. Krammer for the results above aren't included in the reference. I haven't seen data specific to the G17 and G21. SilencerCo recorded 161.4 dB A-Weighted Average for a Springfield 1911 45ACP indoors (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt4AJM75dIU)

140 dB noise and above can cause immediate injury to almost any unprotected ear. Perceived auditory muting does occur under the stress of gunfighting (see study by Dr. Alexis Artwohl) but that doesn't lessen the risk of permanent hearing damage after repeated exposure.

There is a very interesting article with some pertinent information on this topic:

Exposure to Recreational/Occupational Shooting Range Noise vs. Industrial Impulsive Noise (http://www.acoustics.org/press/159th/hale.htm)

I believe the general conclusion about the relative danger of exposure to impulsive noise of a firearm discharged indoors during home defense is summed up in a quote from the article:
"A single unprotected exposure to loud gunfire can result in a temporary hearing loss. However, repeated exposure to impulsive firearm noise can result in permanent noise-induced hearing loss."

Misty02
02-18-2012, 11:30
I don't mean it as a concern but more along the lines of having all your senses intact as much as possible. I am not sure if firing a .45 vs a 9mm would be the difference in causing the average person to go def or not in a home defense situation. But if it is then wouldn't it be better to be able to hear your surroundings when you are in such a situation?

I wouldnít go around testing what damage is done to my ears from the sound of firing a handgun, Iíll reserve that test for when it is a matter of temporary hearing loss or loss of life.

For ranges (in or outdoors) we use double ear protection. We have taken training that involved shooting from inside a vehicle, that was louder than I expected, even with ear protection.

Iím a bit more concerned about being able to stay in the fight after being shot and seeing my own blood flowing. No, Iím not going to practice that one either; although, we have practiced handling and firing a pistol under the assumption that either hand/arm is out of commission.

.

RoundBrown
02-18-2012, 12:30
Like many have said, and from my own experience if your in a "oh S#!t" shooting you wont hear much of the shot, nor will you really recall how many times you fired the weapon.As for weather short term exposure will cause permanent hearing loss that depends on where you are in reference to the muzzle and what caliber weapon is being discharged. In a land far far away while doing "Nothing" I had a fellow co-worker discharge a 50 cal above me, I was about 3ft in front and 5 feet below him when the shots (3) were fired and i have permanent hearing loss from it.. Not fun and hurt like hell!

Glockdude1
02-18-2012, 12:57
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWUP-Rlgj2JaAYg6h9QgtQa48hpWRBhwWuv0WrETUV5b2NkfzE&t=1

:cool:

Sammael
02-18-2012, 16:03
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWUP-Rlgj2JaAYg6h9QgtQa48hpWRBhwWuv0WrETUV5b2NkfzE&t=1

:cool:

Now you're talking!

Glockdude1
02-18-2012, 16:35
Now you're talking!

"Quietly".

:supergrin:

Landric
02-18-2012, 18:10
When one is shooting in any recreational manner (that is not on the two way range), one is foolish not to use some form of hearing protection, be that plugs, muffs, plugs & muffs, a suppressor, or some combination. All the rationalizations in the world are meaningless. It is simply stupid to shoot without hearing protection when it is an option, much like it is stupid to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or drive without a seat-belt. Being able to point out when one engaged in stupid behavior and was uninjured is not an intelligent reason to engage in further stupid behavior.

xXGearheadXx
02-18-2012, 23:25
problem: guns are loud

Solution: Ar15 sbr in .300blk, suppressed, with 220gr subs. :D

GRT45
02-20-2012, 12:45
Glock Talk member 3000fps posted the following video in another GT thread (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403101). It's a fascinating comparison shooting suppressed .22, 9mm, and .45 ACP caliber pistols in a home environment. I figure it's a useful addition to the topic of firearm noise in this thread comparing 9mm and 45ACP for home defense.

Shooting suppressed handguns in a house

DaneA
02-20-2012, 17:25
Pretty simply priorities in a gun fight do not include hearing protection. Now if that gun fight is scheduled well in advance I might consider bringing along my hearing protection; however, I do not know any criminals that are kind enough to call ahead.

HKLovingIT
02-20-2012, 19:16
If you watch the vids on this page - there are a lot of tests with silenced and unsilenced weapons in their sound testing room.

http://www.silencerco.com/?section=Products&page=Osprey

An additional data source.

JackMac
02-20-2012, 21:27
either round will deafen the daylights out of you in your home without hearing protection....but if you are fighting for your family or your life....it won't matter at the moment. Having fired a shotgun and rifle round twice in my life in my home years ago....it won't matter. The object is to eliminate the threat without getting eliminated. No margin for failure....

rick458
02-21-2012, 03:07
I had an ND in my house several years ago at 0200, I was in the Den and it didn't wake up my wife, Or my daughter, in their bedrooms.
It was a 230 gr HydraShok out of a 5" colt, and while VERY surprising it did not seem esp loud.
Now when I shot the Cape Buffalo with my muzzle braked .458 Win Mag I heard the ringing in my ears shift pitch for each of the 3 shots, and could barely hear the PH
yelling at my to "Hit it again"

MoneyMaker
02-21-2012, 03:31
yep wont hear it during real emergency

MoneyMaker
02-21-2012, 03:32
Ummm, if you are in a real situation you will not hear the report, trust me.
true dat

MoneyMaker
02-21-2012, 03:38
Glock Talk member 3000fps posted the following video in another GT thread (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403101). It's a fascinating comparison shooting suppressed .22, 9mm, and .45 ACP caliber pistols in a home environment. I figure it's a useful addition to the topic of firearm noise in this thread comparing 9mm and 45ACP for home defense.

Shooting suppressed handguns in a house (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2GchQ3orB0)


Dont think i could spend the money on a suppressor if that is all it does,wow that smoke would sure give away your presence also i would think

fowler
02-23-2012, 05:56
You will never hear it or feel it go off. Thats the least of your worrys sound.