Questions on the 9mm caliber. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Questions on the 9mm caliber.


cfr
02-18-2012, 09:46
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm

PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.

My disclaimer:

Over the the last year Ive gone back and forth between wanting to keep my .40's, or swtich out to 9's. Even my recent 26 vs. 27 test left me thinking that I may swap out in the future, but am going to hold off for the moment to fund other stuff. I say all of this so that nobody thinks Im attempting to rail on the 9mm, as I may myself be using it within the next year.

PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.

With that out of the way: The link posted got me wondering. The .40 goes all the way through the seat, the 9mm doesnt. I have no intention of shooting through a windshield anytime soon, but got to wondering:

Wouldnt this same logic of not being able to go through the seat be applicable to heavy clothing, muscle mass, etc.? Is there something about a winshield that makes this scenario unique compared to other those types of surfaces?

Of course over penetration could also be a consideration here.

PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.

Thanks!

MrVvrroomm
02-18-2012, 09:51
PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.like tearing a scab off and expecting it not to bleed

Bruce M
02-18-2012, 09:53
Some tests done down here a year or two ago suggested about the same terminal effects from our current 9mm .40 and .45 rounds including in cars (Ranger and HST.) My guess is that with current high end rounds in 9mm and .40 shot placement and luck will have far more effect on the outcome than the choice between 9mm and .40 will.

cfr
02-18-2012, 09:55
like tearing a scab off and expecting it not to bleed


I know it a lot to hope for, but a guy can dream.

NEOH212
02-18-2012, 10:17
Shot placement is everything.

Caliber choice is second. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. I prefer a balance of bullet weight, capacity and energy on target. I'm a big fan of the .40 S&W for that reason. It can do everything the 9mm can do and do it better in most cases. The .45 can do everything that both the 9mm and .40 can do and do it without breaking a sweat.

Some people don't believe that a difference between calibers exists anymore. They argue that since that advent of modern technology, bullet design has advanced the 9mm up to everything else. It's true that advanced in technology have improved the 9mm by leaps and bounds and have allowed for the 9mm to come into it own.

However, keep in mind that the same technology that made the 9mm better did the same for all the other calibers out there as well. Nine is fine, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is the smallest semi-auto pistol cartridge that I would ever consider for defensive purposes in a primary carry piece. With that said, there will always be a bigger and better choice. Pick the one that you shoot best and don't worry about it.

:wavey:

fnfalman
02-18-2012, 10:45
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.

Ronaldo
02-18-2012, 10:52
Shot placement is most important factor.

I shoot more accurately and have faster followup with 9mm.

For that reason I abandoned 45ACP and .40 S&W.

Ronaldo

4 glocks
02-18-2012, 11:01
Great another CALIBER WAR thread.

Caver 60
02-18-2012, 11:22
I sort of agree with Ronaldo.

Except I use a heavier weight 45 and I can control it just as well as my lighter weight 9. I do have a little trouble controlling my 40, since it weighs only an ounce or two more than the nine. It's not recoil that bothers me, it's just that the 40 has more of a 'snap' to it.

ithaca_deerslayer
02-18-2012, 11:27
Cfr, I don't think your link is really making much of a statement about which rounds penetrate more. As the author points out it depends on what the round happens to hit on its path through.

Pretty sure more methodical data has the .40 and 9 as equal in penetration.

barth
02-18-2012, 11:28
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84
9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63
9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83
9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00
9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10
9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92
9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91
9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63
357SIG CCI/Speer GD |125@1372, 24.5 mv, 522 E|BR 16.1", 0.60", 4.54cu|CL 19.1", 0.54", 4.36cu|avg 4.45, 4.96 re, 0.90
40SW Win Ranger Talon|180@1000, 25.7 mv, 399 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.92cu|CL 13.5", 0.68", 4.90cu|avg 4.91, 5.47 re, 0.90
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1176, 26.0 mv, 475 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 18.1", 0.57", 4.62cu|avg 5.27, 5.61 re, 0.94
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1186, 26.3 mv, 483 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 17.7", 0.58", 4.68cu|avg 5.30, 5.70 re, 0.93
40SW Hornady XTP |155@1194, 26.4 mv, 490 E|BR 14.5", 0.65", 4.81cu|CL 18.1", 0.55", 4.30cu|avg 4.56, 5.78 re, 0.79
40SW Win Silvertip |155@1199, 26.5 mv, 494 E|BR 12.2", 0.69", 4.54cu|CL 13.2", 0.71", 5.21cu|avg 4.87, 5.83 re, 0.84
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |155@1167, 25.8 mv, 468 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.02cu|CL 19.5", 0.51", 3.98cu|avg 4.00, 5.52 re, 0.72
40SW CCI/Speer GD |165@1076, 25.4 mv, 424 E|BR 13.1", 0.65", 4.33cu|CL 15.8", 0.60", 4.47cu|avg 4.40, 5.32 re, 0.83
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@1007, 23.7 mv, 371 E|BR 13.8", 0.62", 4.18cu|CL 15.2", 0.64", 4.87cu|avg 4.53, 4.66 re, 0.97
40SW Rem |165@1031, 24.3 mv, 389 E|BR 12.5", 0.67", 4.41cu|CL 16.3", 0.61", 4.76cu|avg 4.59, 4.88 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydeaShok |165@ 931, 21.9 mv, 317 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.43", 3.06cu|avg 3.55, 3.98 re, 0.89
40SW Rem G.S. |165@ 952, 22.4 mv, 332 E|BR 13.1", 0.64", 4.21cu|CL 20.0", 0.53", 4.41cu|avg 4.31, 4.16 re, 1.04
40SW Rem G.S. |165@1022, 24.1 mv, 382 E|BR 14.8", 0.65", 4.89cu|CL 14.3", 0.66", 4.91cu|avg 4.90, 4.80 re, 1.02
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@ 943, 22.2 mv, 325 E|BR 18.2", 0.63", 5.69cu|CL 19.4", 0.56", 4.77cu|avg 5.23, 4.08 re, 1.28
40SW Win Ranger T. |180@ 947, 24.4 mv, 358 E|BR 13.8", 0.69", 5.14cu|CL 13.7", 0.70", 5.25cu|avg 5.20, 4.90 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 982, 25.3 mv, 385 E|BR 14.5", 0.59", 3.96cu|CL 17.6", 0.60", 4.96cu|avg 4.46, 5.27 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 931, 23.9 mv, 346 E|BR 16.8", 0.69", 6.28cu|CL 16.9", 0.63", 5.28cu|avg 5.78, 4.74 re, 1.22
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 945, 24.3 mv, 356 E|BR 16.9", 0.64", 5.44cu|CL 21.0", 0.43", 3.05cu|avg 4.17, 4.88 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 893, 23.0 mv, 318 E|BR 15.7", 0.65", 5.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.51", 4.32cu|avg 4.64, 4.36 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 958, 24.6 mv, 366 E|BR 14.6", 0.60", 4.13cu|CL 17.1", 0.62", 5.16cu|avg 4.65, 5.02 re, 0.93
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 954, 24.5 mv, 363 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.06cu|CL 14.8", 0.67", 5.20cu|avg 5.13, 4.98 re, 1.03
40SW Win B.T. |180@ 917, 23.6 mv, 336 E|BR 13.5", 0.69", 5.05cu|CL 14.4", 0.70", 5.54cu|avg 5.29, 4.60 re, 1.15
40SW Hornady XTP |180@ 929, 23.9 mv, 345 E|BR 13.9", 0.64", 4.49cu|CL 18.4", 0.55", 4.38cu|avg 4.44, 4.72 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydraShok |180@ 969, 24.9 mv, 375 E|BR 14.2", 0.69", 5.29cu|CL 19.8", 0.59", 5.41cu|avg 5.35, 5.13 re, 1.04
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |180@ 960, 24.7 mv, 368 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.05cu|CL 24.0", 0.47", 4.16cu|avg 4.26, 5.04 re, 0.85
40SW Win Ranger SXT |180@ 905, 23.3 mv, 327 E|BR 11.2", 0.70", 4.31cu|CL 13.0", 0.64", 4.18cu|avg 4.25, 4.48 re, 0.95
40SW Win Ranger PG |165@1109, 26.1 mv, 450 E|BR 13.1", 0.73", 5.48cu|CL 14.5", 0.72", 5.90cu|avg 5.69, 5.65 re, 1.01
40SW Win Ranger T |180@ 943, 24.2 mv, 355 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.94cu|CL 14.6", 0.70", 5.62cu|avg 5.28, 4.86 re, 1.09

Bullman
02-18-2012, 11:35
Stopping power is a myth in handguns, until you move into magnum level rounds. The chief advantage, probably the only advantage is that the .40 shoots heavier bullets, which retain their energy better, thus they tend to penetrate better.

Metal Angel
02-18-2012, 11:42
It didn't even say what kind of bullet was used... Supposedly bonded bullets like pdx1 and gold dot do better through windshields, also homogenous bullets like the dpx are supposed to do really well. As far as caliber, I know 40 and 45 can do better in a lot of ways than 9mm, but 9mm does recoil, capacity, and cost better than the other two, and that's why I chose it. When picking a caliber, you are not just picking it by its advantages, but by its disadvantages as well. From what I can tell, they all have about the same number of advantages and disadvantages, so pick your caliber by what you want and what you don't want. Always remeber, no matter what caliber you choose, it still just pokes a small hole through your target. We can't ever get rifle performance out of a carry pistol.

M2 Carbine
02-18-2012, 11:45
Just use what you shoot the most accurate and fastest.

Someone that can hit accurately and fast with a 22 scares me a lot more than a slow poor shot with a 9, 40 or a 45.

If you shoot both equally well than ammo cost might be a consideration.

PrecisionRifleman
02-18-2012, 12:35
I like the 9mm and 45 a lot, and am just really starting to get a lot of range time with the 40 (even though I've owned them over the years). It wasn't until I got my G20SF this past year that I realized how much more the 10mm has to offer in terms of take down power, penetration, and over all performance. It's an outstanding caliber.

The 10mm takes the some of the best qualities from the 9mm, 40, and 45 and puts them all in a single package. It has the mass, bullet weight, velocity, and capacity that are a compromise between the 9mm, 40, and 45 and packs all those desirable qualities into a single cartridge. The more people continue to try out this great cartridge I think we will see less and less debate and decision making between which of the 3 major common calibers to choose from based on the merits each offers as people realize that the big 10 does it all and excels at doing so much more than the others.

There will always be a place for the 9, 40, & 45, but the 10 is in a class of it's own and far superior IMO. Actually maybe too superior for 2 legged threats in full power loads where there are many innocent bystanders such as in city environments. I made this observation from using it on deer and seeing the bullet from a full power load in the 180gr XTP blow right through a deer after taking out a large portion of spine with it. It will without a doubt get the job done, but if it will penetrate and drop a deer like that then it will without a doubt blow right through even the largest man (concern for extreme penetration). So maybe the 10mm is best reserved in rural or country environments?

So I came to the conclusion based on my experience in hunting with the 10, that a slower 40 cal bullet would do fantastic on a man. Ironically the FBI discovered the same thing WELL WELL before I did. I knew this before I came to the same conclusion, but there's a lot to be said for seeing with your own eyes rather than reading information on the net or in a book. The thing about the 40S&W is that it DOES take more practice to get as proficient as you can with the 9mm or 45 Auto if fired in a compact to subcompact package. At least that is true for me and the G23 I own. This might shun a lot of people away from the 40S&W due to the perceived snappy recoil, but investing a respectable amount of time on the range should have you shooting just as well as with a 9mm or 45 Auto.

So in the end I vote for the 40S&W so long as you can invest the time to become as proficient with it as the 9mm and 45 Auto, and also regularly practice to keep your muscle memory where it needs to be in terms of dealing with the recoil characteristics without having to feel like your having to force the weapon and put to much effort into your shooting. If you can't spend the time on the range to master the 40, then there is nothing wrong with the 9mm or 45. I personally like the 45 due to it's bullet size, penetration, and I really like the slow recoil impulse (and I have a LOT of practice with that caliber). Even so the 40S&W is simply a better carry package because you can get a firearm that is easier to conceal, has good penetration, bullet mass, and large capacity. It simply takes some work to get used to it, and some people just don't want to invest the time or are willing to get passed what they perceive as the 40S&W snappiness.

Either way you decide you have more than 1 round in the magazine. Let those bad boys go and you'll do just fine with any of these calibers.

ipscshooter
02-18-2012, 12:58
On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.

:supergrin:

NG VI
02-18-2012, 13:05
Is there something about a winshield that makes this scenario unique compared to other those types of surfaces?




YES!!!

Auto glass and especially windshields are an extremely difficult barrier for any bullet, not just service pistol bullets. It mangles them, even FMJs tend to get torn up by auto glass. JHPs typically exhibit extremely erratic expansion on account of their noses getting ruined on the way in, and all bullets usually show a lot less penetration after going through a windshield.

Also, seats are not analogous to clothing or muscle. They are a dry, fibrous barrier, like clothing, but they also have many rigid metal and plastic components that make it difficult or impossible to directly compare them. Muscle and clothing are nothing alike, and when heavy clothing "defeats" a hollowpoint, it does so by reducing or preventing the bullet from expanding. For all practical comparisons, there are two types of bullets for handguns, expanding and non-expanding. If a bullet does not expand, then it's penetration of living tissue is a very straightforward function of its velocity, diameter, sectional density, and momentum.

So if a JHP is fired through enough clothing to prevent it from expanding, it isn't going to exhibit reduced penetration, it will exhibit nearly identical penetration to an FMJ bullet of the same weight, caliber, and velocity. No matter how thick Jim T. Thuggington's jacket is, it isn't going to measureably reduce the penetration of a conventional JHP

GlockFish
02-18-2012, 13:09
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.

It's true! I've seen pictures!

bac1023
02-18-2012, 13:10
Probably should have been started in Caliber Corner :dunno:

bac1023
02-18-2012, 13:12
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

cowboy1964
02-18-2012, 13:20
box otruth really is stupid sometimes. Unless I missed it, there was no mention of what type of ammo they used, or if they even used the same ammo brand among the different calibers. Worthless test.

Anyway, use Gold Dots. They just stay together through anything. And 9mm penetrates just fine after going through barriers.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

And finally, if you read the "test" they admit that the only reason the .40 penetrated the seat was because of the placement of the shot (i.e. it didn't hit anything in the seat).

W O R T H L E S S !

cheapshot
02-18-2012, 14:13
Shot placement is everything.

Caliber choice is second. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. I prefer a balance of bullet weight, capacity and energy on target. I'm a big fan of the .40 S&W for that reason. It can do everything the 9mm can do and do it better in most cases. The .45 can do everything that both the 9mm and .40 can do and do it without breaking a sweat.

Some people don't believe that a difference between calibers exists anymore. They argue that since that advent of modern technology, bullet design has advanced the 9mm up to everything else. It's true that advanced in technology have improved the 9mm by leaps and bounds and have allowed for the 9mm to come into it own.

However, keep in mind that the same technology that made the 9mm better did the same for all the other calibers out there as well. Nine is fine, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is the smallest semi-auto pistol cartridge that I would ever consider for defensive purposes in a primary carry piece. With that said, there will always be a bigger and better choice. Pick the one that you shoot best and don't worry about it.

:wavey:
I think that's the best answer to this "issue" that i've ever seen posted!:thumbsup:

HalfHazzard
02-18-2012, 14:13
10mm clearly has the most penetration AND makes a huge explosion in ballistic gel.

That being said, shoot whatever you feel the most comfortable with. My prerogative has never been shooting through car windows and seats, but I suppose some people might find that ability useful, and I respect that.

cfr
02-18-2012, 15:39
YES!!!

Auto glass and especially windshields are an extremely difficult barrier for any bullet, not just service pistol bullets. It mangles them, even FMJs tend to get torn up by auto glass. JHPs typically exhibit extremely erratic expansion on account of their noses getting ruined on the way in, and all bullets usually show a lot less penetration after going through a windshield.

Also, seats are not analogous to clothing or muscle. They are a dry, fibrous barrier, like clothing, but they also have many rigid metal and plastic components that make it difficult or impossible to directly compare them. Muscle and clothing are nothing alike, and when heavy clothing "defeats" a hollowpoint, it does so by reducing or preventing the bullet from expanding. For all practical comparisons, there are two types of bullets for handguns, expanding and non-expanding. If a bullet does not expand, then it's penetration of living tissue is a very straightforward function of its velocity, diameter, sectional density, and momentum.

So if a JHP is fired through enough clothing to prevent it from expanding, it isn't going to exhibit reduced penetration, it will exhibit nearly identical penetration to an FMJ bullet of the same weight, caliber, and velocity. No matter how thick Jim T. Thuggington's jacket is, it isn't going to measureably reduce the penetration of a conventional JHP

Thanks!

PrecisionRifleman
02-18-2012, 16:25
It's true! I've seen pictures!

9mm also won't penetrate a flak jacket even without the armored SAPI plates. I'm sure if the 45 or the other common handgun calibers will, but I know without a doubt from first hand experience that a 9mm NATO round won't penetrate a FLAK.

To the OP. I wouldn't overly concern yourself with your handgun penetrating glass. It will, but even with high power rifle rounds glass will deflect the round. Concerns about penetrating automobiles and barriers are not that much of a concern for civilians, but more of a concern for police officers. Not saying that it shouldn't be considered, but I wouldn't get to worked up about it. I myself prefer the 180gr round in my 40S&W because it is the most accurate in my pistol, and I know it is a good penetrator. The 135gr is a light shooter in 40S&W (feels like shooting 9mm) and also very accurate, but the 180gr has much higher SD and therefore will penetrate much better (has SD almost EXACTLY that of a 230gr 45 Auto round).

H&K 4 LIFE
02-18-2012, 17:01
I'll offer this...

You can measure things under controlled conditions and put fancy ballistic numbers on paper all day, but all this equates to very little in a real life DGU situation. How you react and what you do actually has a lot more to do with you surviving or not then the caliber of the pistol your carrying. But caliber is often the more hotly debated topic simply because it is the "cool" thing to talk (or argue) about... discussing tactics and mindset, not as much so.

By it's very nature, a self-defense shooting is a chaos event and this is why we see every service caliber as having both it's shining "one shot stop" moments as well as documented cases of dismal failures, where multiple rounds were expended on the target with virtually no effect.

Pick a handgun and caliber that you are manually proficient with and can make fast consistently accurate hits with (that includes using two hands, strong hand only, support hand only, etc.). Choose quality ammunition and ensure it functions reliably in your handgun. Once you have settled on a combination, you can then concentrate on more pressing matters, such as developing the skills that may be necessary in order to win the fight.

cfr
02-18-2012, 17:09
To the OP. I wouldn't overly concern yourself with your handgun penetrating glass. It will, but even with high power rifle rounds glass will deflect the round. Concerns about penetrating automobiles and barriers are not that much of a concern for civilians, but more of a concern for police officers. Not saying that it shouldn't be considered, but I wouldn't get to worked up about it. I myself prefer the 180gr round in my 40S&W because it is the most accurate in my pistol, and I know it is a good penetrator. The 135gr is a light shooter in 40S&W (feels like shooting 9mm) and also very accurate, but the 180gr has much higher SD and therefore will penetrate much better (has SD almost EXACTLY that of a 230gr 45 Auto round).

Not worried about not being able to penetrate glass... unless heavy clothing, muscle mass, etc. would have the same effect.

Also, I was under the impression that the lighter .40 loads caused more recoil, not less?

Decguns
02-18-2012, 17:21
Go over to Federal Ammo's law enforcement web site. They have videos of FBI tests of their loads and a lot of data from testing loads (not just theirs) for police departments across the country.

Not only can you compare Federal's 9MM, 40 S&W & 45ACP loads against each other, you can see how their Speer line or Winchester loads performed too.

cfr
02-18-2012, 18:45
Go over to Federal Ammo's law enforcement web site. They have videos of FBI tests of their loads and a lot of data from testing loads (not just theirs) for police departments across the country.

Not only can you compare Federal's 9MM, 40 S&W & 45ACP loads against each other, you can see how their Speer line or Winchester loads performed too.

Had no idea, thanks!

kansasboy91
02-18-2012, 22:50
The way I look at it no matter what I dont what to be shot at by anything... That include .22short so any of the choices I say are fine. In most cases you would need to use a firearm your more than likely not going to need something huge. Just what I think.

Glock Fanatic
02-18-2012, 23:16
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84
9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63
9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83
9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00
9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10
9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92
9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91
9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63
357SIG CCI/Speer GD |125@1372, 24.5 mv, 522 E|BR 16.1", 0.60", 4.54cu|CL 19.1", 0.54", 4.36cu|avg 4.45, 4.96 re, 0.90
40SW Win Ranger Talon|180@1000, 25.7 mv, 399 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.92cu|CL 13.5", 0.68", 4.90cu|avg 4.91, 5.47 re, 0.90
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1176, 26.0 mv, 475 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 18.1", 0.57", 4.62cu|avg 5.27, 5.61 re, 0.94
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1186, 26.3 mv, 483 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 17.7", 0.58", 4.68cu|avg 5.30, 5.70 re, 0.93
40SW Hornady XTP |155@1194, 26.4 mv, 490 E|BR 14.5", 0.65", 4.81cu|CL 18.1", 0.55", 4.30cu|avg 4.56, 5.78 re, 0.79
40SW Win Silvertip |155@1199, 26.5 mv, 494 E|BR 12.2", 0.69", 4.54cu|CL 13.2", 0.71", 5.21cu|avg 4.87, 5.83 re, 0.84
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |155@1167, 25.8 mv, 468 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.02cu|CL 19.5", 0.51", 3.98cu|avg 4.00, 5.52 re, 0.72
40SW CCI/Speer GD |165@1076, 25.4 mv, 424 E|BR 13.1", 0.65", 4.33cu|CL 15.8", 0.60", 4.47cu|avg 4.40, 5.32 re, 0.83
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@1007, 23.7 mv, 371 E|BR 13.8", 0.62", 4.18cu|CL 15.2", 0.64", 4.87cu|avg 4.53, 4.66 re, 0.97
40SW Rem |165@1031, 24.3 mv, 389 E|BR 12.5", 0.67", 4.41cu|CL 16.3", 0.61", 4.76cu|avg 4.59, 4.88 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydeaShok |165@ 931, 21.9 mv, 317 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.43", 3.06cu|avg 3.55, 3.98 re, 0.89
40SW Rem G.S. |165@ 952, 22.4 mv, 332 E|BR 13.1", 0.64", 4.21cu|CL 20.0", 0.53", 4.41cu|avg 4.31, 4.16 re, 1.04
40SW Rem G.S. |165@1022, 24.1 mv, 382 E|BR 14.8", 0.65", 4.89cu|CL 14.3", 0.66", 4.91cu|avg 4.90, 4.80 re, 1.02
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@ 943, 22.2 mv, 325 E|BR 18.2", 0.63", 5.69cu|CL 19.4", 0.56", 4.77cu|avg 5.23, 4.08 re, 1.28
40SW Win Ranger T. |180@ 947, 24.4 mv, 358 E|BR 13.8", 0.69", 5.14cu|CL 13.7", 0.70", 5.25cu|avg 5.20, 4.90 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 982, 25.3 mv, 385 E|BR 14.5", 0.59", 3.96cu|CL 17.6", 0.60", 4.96cu|avg 4.46, 5.27 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 931, 23.9 mv, 346 E|BR 16.8", 0.69", 6.28cu|CL 16.9", 0.63", 5.28cu|avg 5.78, 4.74 re, 1.22
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 945, 24.3 mv, 356 E|BR 16.9", 0.64", 5.44cu|CL 21.0", 0.43", 3.05cu|avg 4.17, 4.88 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 893, 23.0 mv, 318 E|BR 15.7", 0.65", 5.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.51", 4.32cu|avg 4.64, 4.36 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 958, 24.6 mv, 366 E|BR 14.6", 0.60", 4.13cu|CL 17.1", 0.62", 5.16cu|avg 4.65, 5.02 re, 0.93
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 954, 24.5 mv, 363 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.06cu|CL 14.8", 0.67", 5.20cu|avg 5.13, 4.98 re, 1.03
40SW Win B.T. |180@ 917, 23.6 mv, 336 E|BR 13.5", 0.69", 5.05cu|CL 14.4", 0.70", 5.54cu|avg 5.29, 4.60 re, 1.15
40SW Hornady XTP |180@ 929, 23.9 mv, 345 E|BR 13.9", 0.64", 4.49cu|CL 18.4", 0.55", 4.38cu|avg 4.44, 4.72 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydraShok |180@ 969, 24.9 mv, 375 E|BR 14.2", 0.69", 5.29cu|CL 19.8", 0.59", 5.41cu|avg 5.35, 5.13 re, 1.04
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |180@ 960, 24.7 mv, 368 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.05cu|CL 24.0", 0.47", 4.16cu|avg 4.26, 5.04 re, 0.85
40SW Win Ranger SXT |180@ 905, 23.3 mv, 327 E|BR 11.2", 0.70", 4.31cu|CL 13.0", 0.64", 4.18cu|avg 4.25, 4.48 re, 0.95
40SW Win Ranger PG |165@1109, 26.1 mv, 450 E|BR 13.1", 0.73", 5.48cu|CL 14.5", 0.72", 5.90cu|avg 5.69, 5.65 re, 1.01
40SW Win Ranger T |180@ 943, 24.2 mv, 355 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.94cu|CL 14.6", 0.70", 5.62cu|avg 5.28, 4.86 re, 1.09

Have you ever heard of "fly over states?" well this my friend to the untrained eye is "scroll over text"... and my eye is untrained so if someone could condense and explain I would greatly appreciate it!!!

BTW im not trying to be an a-hole, i just honestly dont understand all that and I appreciate you getting that information for us but if you would elaborate it would help me a TON!

PrecisionRifleman
02-18-2012, 23:38
Not worried about not being able to penetrate glass... unless heavy clothing, muscle mass, etc. would have the same effect.

Also, I was under the impression that the lighter .40 loads caused more recoil, not less?

The 135 Federal Guard dog @ 1200FPS feels exactly like a 9mm to me, 155gr I have not tried yet, but the 165gr are what people call snappy and they also seem more difficult to get a quick 2nd follow up shot than 135 or 180's. The 180gr are more of a heavy push very much like the 45 auto, and are what I prefer for that reason along with good penetration (plus they are very accurate in my gun).

All these observations were in using my Gen 4 G23.

Jake Starr
02-18-2012, 23:39
"Fact: Traditional handgun ammunition used by the police and military (9mm, .40cal, .357Sig, .45cal)dose not cavitate and produce the same such shock wave as rifle ammunition. Therefore a vital organ/artery or vassal must be directly hit/punctured in order to get the desired result. Shot placement trumps bullet diameter every time. With that in mind it would be wise to shoot the same target multiple times (3-5) to increase your chances of success. Success being defined as your enemy collapsing on the floor. If we agree that multiple hits on the same target increases our chances of success then we would have to agree that more bullets is better then less bullets and shooting faster is better then shooting slower. Considering those who with harm to us may come in pares, one would rather 15 rounds then 8. Seeing as a duty weapon will typically carry more ammo in the 9mm verity then the .45cal verity, we can conclude logically that a 9mm weapon would increase ones chance at destroying ones enemy's.
Which brings me to my next point. Seeing as multiple shots are what is necessary in increase the likelihood of success over the extra 1mm of 40cal over 9mm. We could also conclude that a training target is best if it is focused on the area of the body that is most likely to contain the vital organs and vessels we spoke about earlier, ie the chest and upper torso. That being said, the distance across an average mans vital zone is going to be approximately 9inches wide (Nipple to nipple) and 12 inches long (traps to solo plexus). Our targets should emulate this hit zone.
Which brings me to my next point. Target size should increase with distance because in that moment the necessity to hit the enemy is greater then the necessity of killing him. At 25 meters and beyond, in real life when my enemy is moving and my environment is out of control and chaotic and I am under stress, I want to hit my target and draw blood. Ending the conflict at 25+ meters or even 20 meters is not realistic. The only way to end the fight is to close distance to guarantee threat neutralization. There for for training purposes I should increase my hit zone to 12 inches across (arm pit to arm pit) and (traps to pelvis), when shooting at 25meter+. I am better off shooting and hitting anywhere then not shooting at all because I could not guarantee a chest hit.
To conclude. A high capacity, light weight, concealable, durable and simple combat hand gun would serve police/military best. (Example: Glock17) A 8.5X11 inch A4 paper would serve the purpose of a combat target at distances from 3-25 meters max. Beyond that at larger (but realistic target should be used). I should be able to shoot 5 rounds from my duty gun as fast as I am able to pull the trigger at up to 7 meters on a 8.5X11 target. If I can't, then I am not ready for reality."

I would agree with the above.

Glock Fanatic
02-18-2012, 23:48
agreed...

LASTRESORT20
02-18-2012, 23:50
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.


~ ".45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air" ~


***A 10mm...Just Vaporizes the "person"...The is no "Torso" left... to flip "in the air":supergrin:

PrecisionRifleman
02-18-2012, 23:57
I would agree with the above.

I can agree with that as well, but anyone who practices a lot with a caliber larger than the 9mm can liekly shoot that caliber just as fast and as accurately and maybe even more so than a 9mm. I found that I could do exactly that with the G30SF I had after getting in a decent amount of practice. Now apply that same principle to a 40S&W that has barely less capacity than the 9mm and I'll take that advantage.

Edit: I do highly doubt that the average Joe will practice enough to be highly proficient with the 357 SIG, 40S&W, or 10mm (all high capacity) as they could be with less range time using the 9mm. So it is probably true that for the average Joe the 9mm is probably a better choice.

panzer1
02-19-2012, 00:25
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.That is a joke right?:upeyes:

Jake Starr
02-19-2012, 09:27
but anyone who practices a lot with a caliber larger than the 9mm can likely shoot that caliber just as fast and as accurately and maybe even more so than a 9mm.

I concur. But it does take practice and shooting the 9 can give you an edge over the 40.

unit1069
02-19-2012, 09:40
Personally, for self-defense I'd pick the caliber/ammo combination that exhibits the best shooting characteristics consistent with FBI ammo protocol. There are so many variables that could come into play that there's no one-size-fits-all system that covers the totality of possibilities.

If I'm taking a stroll in the woods where large animals may be encountered I'd definitely take the .40S&W with 180-grain ammo over any 9mm combination. I don't particularly like the strong muzzle flip of .40S&W but you fit the caliber/ammo to the task at hand, in my opinion.

PS As for the penetration question, that's a non-issue as Box-O-Truth points out regarding the sturdy steel frame of the car seat.

ithaca_deerslayer
02-19-2012, 21:04
I can agree with that as well, but anyone who practices a lot with a caliber larger than the 9mm can liekly shoot that caliber just as fast and as accurately and maybe even more so than a 9mm. I found that I could do exactly that with the G30SF I had after getting in a decent amount of practice. Now apply that same principle to a 40S&W that has barely less capacity than the 9mm and I'll take that advantage.

. . .

I don't think you are being honest with yourself. Of course I could be wrong, but I believe it is a general law of shooting that any shooter will be faster and more accurate with a lower recoil gun, all other things being equal.

So while you may easily shoot a 45 better than I can shoot a 9, I do not believe that with equal training and platform that you could shoot a 45 better than a 9.

One easy way to test this is to pick your gun of choice, and bullet weight of choice, then a high velocity load versus a low velocity load. I could do this, for example, with my .44 revolver comparing magnum loads to non-magnum loads.

PrecisionRifleman
02-19-2012, 21:14
I'm being honest. I can shoot them equally as well. The 45 has pretty light recoil. The difference between the two is a slow shove and a quick snap. I much prefer the slow shove. Now this doesn't hold true in all calibers. Atleast not for me. Noe if I stop shooting a lot then the 9mm wins out. If you practice enough you may notice the samething. I definitely can't shoot the 40 as well as either.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Paul53
02-19-2012, 21:15
Just use what you shoot the most accurate and fastest.

Someone that can hit accurately and fast with a 22 scares me a lot more than a slow poor shot with a 9, 40 or a 45.

If you shoot both equally well than ammo cost might be a consideration.

+1. All else is fluff. You're safest with the gun you shoot best.

checkyoursix
02-20-2012, 07:17
That is a joke right?:upeyes:

No no its dead serious the only reason why 20 million Russians got killed is because they run out of mud, otherwise they would have been fine.

KarlThomas
02-20-2012, 09:03
No no its dead serious the only reason why 20 million Russians got killed is because they run out of mud, otherwise they would have been fine.

I, for one, keep 25 plastic crates full of mud in my garage. You can never be too prepared. :cool:

Bullman
02-20-2012, 11:45
I don't understand where you guys get the idea that the .40 is such a hard recoiling weapon. I seriously can't really tell a difference.

PrecisionRifleman
02-20-2012, 11:51
Its not hard recoiling at all, but it has a fast recoil impulse that takes getting used to in a compact or subcompact. It really depends on what bullet weight you use though. The 180 feels like a 45, the 135 like a 9mm, and the 165 has a fast recoil impulse. I don't notice much of a difference between the 40 & 9mm in a full size pistol like the g22. Others may feel different, but that my observation.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Nestor
02-20-2012, 11:55
From all the mentioned calibers I like .45 the best.
With the new expanding bullets 9mm works like .40 did a decade ago. 40 works like .45 did and .45 works like nothing before. I think that Winchester is selling a bonded ammo (PDX1) that suppose to penetrate the auto glass better. Not like I'm going to test it anytime soon...but I have a box and it's pretty damn accurate.

cfr
02-20-2012, 11:57
I think it's greatly exaggerated (sp?) on the web. I recently compared a 26 and 27 back to back. There is some difference, but not nearly as much in my hand as what I had been imagining from all the horrible crap I'd read online. I'll eventually make the switch, but mainly due to cheaper ammo.

The day before my comparison I was talking to a guy in Wal Mart while buying ammo that really seemed to know his stuff -- said the 27 would have "twice as much recoil as the 26". :wow:

Puhleez.

Haldor
02-20-2012, 12:06
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.

And then there's 10 mm.

http://poptimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Bones-ep610_BulletInBrainon-sc40_0598.jpg

NeverMore1701
02-20-2012, 12:11
They're all close enough to make no difference to me in terminal effect. I choose 9mm for capacity, cost to practice, and speed of followup shots. That said, I'm enjoying my new .45 a lot.

Haldor
02-20-2012, 12:16
9mm?

Pros:

Modern HP SD bullets provide adequate penetration
Modern HP SD bullets provide adequate expansion
Lower Recoil
Faster follow-up shots
Higher magazine capacity
Least expensive Practice ammo ($0.20 per shot)
Least expensive SD ammo ($26/50 for Federal HST)
Best selection of covert concealed carry pistols
Available in any type and size pistol desired from virtually all vendors.
9mm suppressors with 147g ammo are cheaper, smaller and more effective than .45 suppressors


Cons:

FMJ has excessive overpenetration
FMJ has inadequate (read none) expansion
1911 fan boys sneer at you.


- Edit -

The reason why cost matters to me is because ammo cost is the biggest impediment to practice for me. I can afford to shoot my 9mm twice as much as a .40 or .45 for the same cost which means that my shooting skills are much better than they would be if I stuck to .40 or .45. Combine that with the need for more training to shoot .40 or .45 as well as 9mm and this makes for an even bigger difference.

I normally go pistol shooting at least once a month and shoot around 200 rounds of target 9mm plus 11 rounds of SD ammo per outing (I empty my carry magazine of SD ammo each time I go to the range). I could not afford to do that much shooting if I was using .40 or .45.

Rumbler_G20
02-20-2012, 12:26
The way I look at it no matter what I dont what to be shot at by anything... That include .22short so any of the choices I say are fine. In most cases you would need to use a firearm your more than likely not going to need something huge. Just what I think.


Yeah. So save your money and just fill your pocket(s) with stones. Lord knows getting hit with one of those thrown at full speed sure hurts!


:upeyes:

cfr
02-20-2012, 12:32
If I was a "holy crap, .40 has soooo much recoil" kinda guy, I may also think the other downside to 9 is that the self defense ammo (+P or +p+) doesnt feel like the target ammo (non +P, fmj).

Lucky for me, I dont notice much difference between 9 and .40, so I wont have that problem between 9 target ammo and +p+'s when I do make the switch to 9's.

If I did see that difference, I think Id be inclined to fight how I train, and use the self defense ammo in my training, but then the cost would add up to more than .40's.

mdsn969
02-20-2012, 17:07
Either caliber is a fine choice. i chose to standardize on the 9mm because it is less expensive, readily available, I am able to recover and place the second shot more quickly, and with proper shot placement it is very effective.

mdsn969
02-20-2012, 17:10
Yeah. So save your money and just fill your pocket(s) with stones. Lord knows getting hit with one of those thrown at full speed sure hurts!


:upeyes:

kansasboy91 made an excellent point and you are blowing him &^%$??? :upeyes:

captcurly
02-20-2012, 17:16
With modern +P ammo and the latest tech in bullet making I am OK with the 9X19. Like my signature states, It is all about bullet placement. If the bullet is not where it is suppose to be it does not matter what caliber. Regards to all at GT.

mdsn969
02-20-2012, 17:22
With modern +P ammo and the latest tech in bullet making I am OK with the 9X19. Like my signature states, It is all about bullet placement. If the bullet is not where it is suppose to be it does not matter what caliber. Regards to all at GT.

+1 :supergrin:

glockin-45
02-20-2012, 17:43
[QUOTE=H&K 4 LIFE;18598570]I'll offer this...

You can measure things under controlled conditions and put fancy ballistic numbers on paper all day, but all this equates to very little in a real life DGU situation. How you react and what you do actually has a lot more to do with you surviving or not then the caliber of the pistol your carrying. But caliber is often the more hotly debated topic simply because it is the "cool" thing to talk (or argue) about... discussing tactics and mindset, not as much so.

By it's very nature, a self-defense shooting is a chaos event and this is why we see every service caliber as having both it's shining "one shot stop" moments as well as documented cases of dismal failures, where multiple rounds were expended on the target with virtually no effect.

Pick a handgun and caliber that you are manually proficient with and can make fast consistently accurate hits with (that includes using two hands, strong hand only, support hand only, etc.). Choose quality ammunition and ensure it functions reliably in your handgun. Once you have settled on a combination, you can then concentrate on more pressing matters, such as developing the skills that may be necessary in order to win the fight.[/QUOT

+1 Well said.

NeverMore1701
02-20-2012, 21:36
If I was a "holy crap, .40 has soooo much recoil" kinda guy, I may also think the other downside to 9 is that the self defense ammo (+P or +p+) doesnt feel like the target ammo (non +P, fmj).

Lucky for me, I dont notice much difference between 9 and .40, so I wont have that problem between 9 target ammo and +p+'s when I do make the switch to 9's.

If I did see that difference, I think Id be inclined to fight how I train, and use the self defense ammo in my training, but then the cost would add up to more than .40's.

Oddly enough, I can tell almost no appreciable difference between WWB 9mm 115gr. FMJ and Speer 9mm 124gr. +P Gold Dots. I can feel a marked difference between the 9mm Gold Dots and WWB .40 FMJ.

I can shoot .40 just fine, and it doesn't hurt my girly little wrists, I just prefer 9mm and .45.

SauerChoi
02-21-2012, 00:40
Yeah. So save your money and just fill your pocket(s) with stones. Lord knows getting hit with one of those thrown at full speed sure hurts!


:upeyes:

wow who crapped in your cereal today? The man made a post about how he felt. No need to be an ass about it.

fnfalman
02-21-2012, 00:43
Yeah. So save your money and just fill your pocket(s) with stones. Lord knows getting hit with one of those thrown at full speed sure hurts!


:upeyes:

Let me crack a 2-lbs stone against your temple and see how you fare.:dunno:

cole
02-21-2012, 02:06
... As the author points out it depends on what the round happens to hit on its path through...

This pretty much sums it all up. And, applies to most of these limited data tests. Comparing penetration of the seat in this test is meaningless. Also, report does not state what rounds were used (e.g. bonded, load weight, etc.). However, the deflection difference is interesting.

16again
02-21-2012, 13:30
That is a joke right?:upeyes:Doug I'm laughing my tail off!

No no its dead serious the only reason why 20 million Russians got killed is because they run out of mud, otherwise they would have been fine.This is the reason I'm laughing my tail off. :rofl:

Berto
02-21-2012, 14:53
I like the 9mm and wouldn't hesitate to rely on it with the right loads, just like .38sp, .45acp, 10mm etc.

BrewerGeorge
02-22-2012, 01:09
I'm also involved in switching over from .40 to 9mm. I was an early adopter of the .40 and flat loved the thing when it was new. I no longer think it's really necessary with the improvements in ammo over the last few years. You have to think about what you're shooting. We aren't all carrying .454 Casull because its power is unnecessary when shooting people. 9mm have now moved into the respectable range for shooting people, and the new Critical Duty rounds from Hornady are even defeating all the FBI barrier tests (first time ever for any round IIRC).

Sure, the .40 is still better, but the cost $$$ was the ultimate deciding factor for me. When you start to add up the cost of the practice, and the cost of stockpiling rounds (if you're into that) the 9mm is the hands-down winner. You can still buy good-quality, new 9mm FMJ in a store for under $10/50rd if you catch a sale - to say nothing of internet buys. 9mm is so cheap that it barely pays to reload it.

jp3975
02-22-2012, 05:00
I would probably get an FN 57 if 5.7x28mm where as cheap as 9mm and the gun didnt cost 1k.

I dont plan to stand there and shoot at a guy in a car so im not too worried about that scenario.

cowboy1964
02-22-2012, 06:48
9mm is so cheap that it barely pays to reload it.

But it DOES still pay. About $4 per 50. But yeah, I've never understood why 9mm is cheaper than even .380. Obviously there is more to it than the amount of materials that go into the round. I guess it's production volume.

cowboy1964
02-22-2012, 06:49
and the new Critical Duty rounds from Hornady are even defeating all the FBI barrier tests (first time ever for any round IIRC).

What are you talking about? All the major, quality, JHPs (Gold Dot, HST, Ranger, etc) pass all of the protocol tests. Maybe it's the first HORNADY round that does. :rofl:

BrewerGeorge
02-22-2012, 07:38
What are you talking about? All the major, quality, JHPs (Gold Dot, HST, Ranger, etc) pass all of the protocol tests. Maybe it's the first HORNADY round that does. :rofl:
I'm just going by this HANDGUNS article (http://www.handgunsmag.com/2011/12/29/hornady-critical-duty/) from this month.

Hornady's new Critical Duty handgun ammunition is the only law-enforcement ammunition that currently exceeds the FBI’s minimum 12-inch standard for target penetration....No expanding-bullet handgun load has ever passed all the penetration tests, and the killer barriers have always been the glass and auto-body steel. But Hornady’s new Critical Duty exceeds the minimum 12-inch penetration standard for all barriers, and by significant amounts.

cfr
02-22-2012, 09:58
At some point I'll likely swap to a G26 (from 27) for my EDC gun due to cheaper ammo. But a new reason to not leave .40 (I also have a G22) altogether occured to me last night:

Box of 9's: $20
Box of .40's: $26
Having two good friends that reload .40's, but none that reload 9's when the ammo buying frenzie is on: Priceless.


Certainly wont be the only determining factor, but will be a consideration. This is as good as a friend with a boat/ pool/ etc. :supergrin:

NeverMore1701
02-22-2012, 11:53
At some point I'll likely swap to a G26 (from 27) for my EDC gun due to cheaper ammo. But a new reason to not leave .40 (I also have a G22) altogether occured to me last night:

Box of 9's: $20
Box of .40's: $26
Having two good friends that reload .40's, but none that reload 9's when the ammo buying frenzie is on: Priceless.


Certainly wont be the only determining factor, but will be a consideration. This is as good as a friend with a boat/ pool/ etc. :supergrin:

I'd just get a 9mm conversion barrel for the 27.

cfr
02-22-2012, 12:21
I'd just get a 9mm conversion barrel for the 27.


Thats an idea too. BTW, dig your signature.

Bill Keith
02-22-2012, 16:44
Just use what you shoot the most accurate and fastest.

Someone that can hit accurately and fast with a 22 scares me a lot more than a slow poor shot with a 9, 40 or a 45.

If you shoot both equally well than ammo cost might be a consideration.
I agree totally. Another thought I have is to consider the environmental conditions you are using the weapon. Living in the Texas Gulf Coast, people don't wear heavy coats and clothing, the winters are too mild, so I don't worry about penetrating winter garments like someone would who lives in the upper Midwest. I'd use a 'winter' ammo and a 'summer' ammo if I lived in cold country:wavey:

NeverMore1701
02-22-2012, 16:54
Thats an idea too. BTW, dig your signature.

Haha thanks. Someone a while back wrote that about me trying to piss me off. So I made it my signature.

:rofl:

cfr
02-22-2012, 21:24
Haha thanks. Someone a while back wrote that about me trying to piss me off. So I made it my signature.

:rofl:

Well played!

WarEagle32
02-23-2012, 00:37
I happen to randomly have the same exact way of thinking that Rob Pincus does. I use to think the 40 was great and a my guns were 40. Then I got educated by lots of practice and rid myself of every .40 I had in favor of 9mm's. It is the best decision that I have ever made. The 9 will do everything the 40 can practically do with a lot less recoil and more bullets in the gun. I also discovered Copper. The 9mm loaded with Corbon DPX's is as good as anything out there. The Pure Copper makes the 9mm very viable! A Glock 19 in a CB Supertuck is as good as it gets for SD!

Ebb27
02-23-2012, 00:52
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.



I'm calling BS on this one!


The German soldiers weren't attacking with 9mm pistols they had 8mm Mauser rifles.

What's more the average infantry soldier in the German army wasn't even issued a pistol, those were given to officers.

Why would the Russians even bother with caking their coats with mud on the off chance that they might be attacked by a German officer with his pistol?

Why not just stay clean and simply shoot them with your rifle before they get close enough to use their pistol?


That's ridiculous.

NeverMore1701
02-23-2012, 00:53
I'm calling BS on this one!


The German soldiers weren't attacking with 9mm pistols they had 8mm mauser rifles.

What's more the average infantry soldier in the German army wasn't even issued a pistol, those were given to officers.

Why would the Russians even bother with caking their coats with mud on the off chance that they might be attacked by a German officer with his pistol?

Why not just stay clean and simply shoot them with your rifle before they get close enough to use their pistol?


That's ridiculous.

He blathers stupid **** like that all the time, for no apparent reason. Do those of us who have him on ignore a favor and don't quote his posts :whistling:

Ebb27
02-23-2012, 00:56
He blathers stupid **** like that all the time, for no apparent reason. Do those of us who have him on ignore a favor and don't quote his posts :whistling:



Sorry I didn't know for sure he was an idiot, I thought he might be serious.


Thanks for the heads up.

MinnesnowtaWild
02-23-2012, 01:31
I'm pretty sure he was kidding. I thought it was hilarious, because I know a couple of people who actually believe that 9mm is like a bee sting and a .45 is like being shot with a small atomic bomb. One of these guys is my good friend who carries a Taurus PT145 and loads it with the Zombiemax ammo and has never tested any hollow point in his gun. Not only that but the gun constantly has issues racking in the first round of a full magazine. I am thankful that I am able to carry my G26 with proven, reliable ammo that I have tested so I don't have to rely on him in a bad situation.

fnfalman
02-23-2012, 01:52
Sorry I didn't know for sure he was an idiot, I thought he might be serious.


Thanks for the heads up.

Only an idiot would take my hyperbolic post at face value.

fnfalman
02-23-2012, 01:53
He blathers stupid **** like that all the time, for no apparent reason. Do those of us who have him on ignore a favor and don't quote his posts :whistling:

Ooh goodie!!! I'm on your ignore list!!!

Do I get a Blue Ribbon for that?

fnfalman
02-23-2012, 01:56
Hmmm...


You're calling BS on my claiming that Nazi 9mm can't penetrate muddy Soviet great coats, yet you said nothing about my claiming that the .45ACP would blow a person's arms and legs off and send the torso flipping into the air?

What does that mean? That you'd actually think the .45ACP is that powerful and the 9mm is that weak?

I know that this is the age of the intrawebz and all, but by all that's holy, how about practicing some reasoning?


I'm calling BS on this one!


The German soldiers weren't attacking with 9mm pistols they had 8mm Mauser rifles.

What's more the average infantry soldier in the German army wasn't even issued a pistol, those were given to officers.

Why would the Russians even bother with caking their coats with mud on the off chance that they might be attacked by a German officer with his pistol?

Why not just stay clean and simply shoot them with your rifle before they get close enough to use their pistol?


That's ridiculous.

cfr
02-23-2012, 08:35
Making an obvious joke about torn in half torso's/ mud caked jackets is one thing. Taking cheap shots and throwing insults is another.

As the OP of this thread, Im making a respectful request that this stop now, so this thread doesnt get locked. Some of us are on the 9/ .40 fence, and threads like these are a great value.

Of course I realize that I cant control the outcome of this request, but I'd really appreciate it!

Nestor
02-23-2012, 08:43
I'm calling BS on this one!


The German soldiers weren't attacking with 9mm pistols they had 8mm Mauser rifles.

What's more the average infantry soldier in the German army wasn't even issued a pistol, those were given to officers.

Why would the Russians even bother with caking their coats with mud on the off chance that they might be attacked by a German officer with his pistol?

Why not just stay clean and simply shoot them with your rifle before they get close enough to use their pistol?


That's ridiculous.

Yes, it's.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Admon/untitled.png