The real reason NYPD disallowed Kahrs for off duty! [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : The real reason NYPD disallowed Kahrs for off duty!


ajgranda
02-19-2012, 14:19
I've been hearing and reading a lot of misinformation on the subject. So here is the truth. It's more like Kahr dropped NYPD.




http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-12/news/30509585_1_pistol-discharges-nypd-brass-kahr-arms

Narkcop
02-19-2012, 14:22
Truth be told I think NYPD brass would prefer it if their Police were unarmed and just talked real nice to people so that they wouldn't break the law.

Beretta92guy
02-19-2012, 14:52
well what is the trigger weight on those Kahrs, 2 pounds?????

P35
02-19-2012, 14:58
looks like some of the NYCPD have poor firearm handling skills

plouffedaddy
02-19-2012, 15:38
The NYPD and other departments fear of negligent discharges is mind boggling to me. A former LEO myself, I think the risk of missing a target due to a 10lb or more trigger pull is much greater than the risk of a 5lb trigger being too light. I understand adrenaline and all, but there is nothing wrong with most factory triggers as far as safety is concerned.

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 15:55
I've been hearing and reading a lot of misinformation on the subject. So here is the truth. It's more like Kahr dropped NYPD.




http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-12/news/30509585_1_pistol-discharges-nypd-brass-kahr-arms


Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments

oldsoldier
02-19-2012, 16:13
I looked the gun up and it is a trigger cocking DAO pistol. Your comments has me curious. Are you saying the failures are due to the gun firing without the trigger pulled say from dropping it? Otherwise I don't see how it could fire without the officer pulling the trigger.

cowboywannabe
02-19-2012, 16:35
I looked the gun up and it is a trigger cocking DAO pistol. Your comments has me curious. Are you saying the failures are due to the gun firing without the trigger pulled say from dropping it? Otherwise I don't see how it could fire without the officer pulling the trigger.

tagged for clarification and answer.

El_Ron1
02-19-2012, 16:47
Donuts take out more cops that Kahr ever could.

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 16:55
There were a series of issues. Some involved the striker safeties failing but the biggest problems involve the trigger pull weights falling bellow accepted minimum standards. Whether others agree with their standard weight or not it was a basic requirement for them to remain in service. Kahr hated to lose the NYPD account, but their product was not up to standards.

Narkcop
02-19-2012, 16:56
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments

What pistol meets your high standards?:upeyes:

Metal Angel
02-19-2012, 17:06
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

He is saying that by refusing to accommodate the NYPD's ridiculous demand of a 13lb trigger, Kahr is effectively dropping NYPD.

I agree with Kahr that a 13lb trigger would be ridiculous. I don't think my wife could even pull a 13lb trigger, let alone squeeze off accurate shots. Also, I don't see how you could accidentally pull a Kahr trigger- the pull is so loooong. Especially when Glock triggers are shorter and lighter... Which brings me to my next point.

I recently did some research on the Kahr action, and I'll be honest, it has me concerned. Whatever they call it, it's not truly double action, it's 3/4 of the way to single action, which means if something slips inside, it CAN fire. Glocks are the same way, but not including the trigger safety, it has two internal safeties, which means you have a backup if one fails. The Kahr SHOULD never fail, but I am a service tech, and I know mechanical things that should never fail still do fail. I think Kahr calls the striker block an "internal safety", but to me, a safety is something that accounts for failure of normal operation... Like what Glock has.

Anyway, not bashing Kahr... but I am second guessing the PM9 purchase I had planned for this week. It might turn into a 26.

Sgt127
02-19-2012, 17:20
I have several Glocks and Kahrs. I think the striker on a Glock is far more pre-loaded than a Kahr. All that trigger pull on the Kahr goes for loading up the striker. And, safety wise, they are identical as far as the firing pin safety. Slightly different way of accomplishing it, but, same net result.

ajgranda
02-19-2012, 17:30
He is saying that by refusing to accommodate the NYPD's ridiculous demand of a 13lb trigger, Kahr is effectively dropping NYPD.



Precisely!

ajgranda
02-19-2012, 17:34
Anyway, not bashing Kahr... but I am second guessing the PM9 purchase I had planned for this week. It might turn into a 26.

I wouldn't second guess the PM9. That's going to be my next purchase for Hot weather carry. It is considerably smaller and lighter than the G26. The G26 is not a "true" subcompact. The same goes for XD40sc. If that doesn't matter to you then go for the G26, although I never cared for it's ergos when I had one and bought the XD40sc.

Metal Angel
02-19-2012, 17:40
I have several Glocks and Kahrs. I think the striker on a Glock is far more pre-loaded than a Kahr. All that trigger pull on the Kahr goes for loading up the striker. And, safety wise, they are identical as far as the firing pin safety. Slightly different way of accomplishing it, but, same net result.

No.

http://www.kahr.com/kahr-unique-design.asp
http://us.glock.com/technology

The Glock site is flash, so I can't give you a direct link, but you should be able to find it. The striker is in the exact same 3/4 (if not more) cocked position on both. The reason the trigger feels different is because Kahr has made it so that you have to pull further to get the same mechanical movement of the striker, making the trigger feel smoother. Kahr has nothing sitting in front of the striker as a back up safety like Glock does.

ithaca_deerslayer
02-19-2012, 17:41
There were a series of issues. Some involved the striker safeties failing but the biggest problems involve the trigger pull weights falling bellow accepted minimum standards. Whether others agree with their standard weight or not it was a basic requirement for them to remain in service. Kahr hated to lose the NYPD account, but their product was not up to standards.

Can you clarify even further?

Did NYPD find a problem with Kahr pistols "going off" by themselves, or did officers just accidentally pull the triggers (or have somethine like a jacket drawstring get caught in the trigger)? Seems like these are the only two possibilites, and everything else is secondary.

I ask this question because I have a Kahr. I want to know if it will just "go off" on its own.

This issue perhaps is similar to Glock, where someone pulls the trigger then says the gun went off on its own. Glock offers different trigger weights if individuals or departments want a heavier pull. If Kahr doesn't offer the particular weight NYPD wants, I don't see how that makes Kahr a POS.

I've pointed out on GT some potential problems that might contribute to jams in the Kahr pistol, and I've described potential fixes, and what worked for me. But that still doesn't make the Kahr a POS.

But there might be other information you have, so that is why I'm asking. This also affects how I respond to newbies I instruct in person, who may ask for carry gun suggestions.

Thank you for any further info :)

Metal Angel
02-19-2012, 17:43
I wouldn't second guess the PM9. That's going to be my next purchase for Hot weather carry. It is considerably smaller and lighter than the G26. The G26 is not a "true" subcompact. The same goes for XD40sc. If that doesn't matter to you then go for the G26, although I never cared for it's ergos when I had one and bought the XD40sc.
I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.

ronin.45
02-19-2012, 17:44
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments

If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.

cowboy1964
02-19-2012, 17:46
7.5 lbs is too light of a trigger? Good grief. No wonder they install NY-2 triggers in their Glock 19s. And Kahr's have long pulls too, if the PM9 is typical of them.

Supposedly NYPD wanted a heavy Glock trigger because of all the old-timers that transitioned from revolvers. It's time to move on, NYPD.

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
02-19-2012, 17:59
Sounds to me as if NYPD needs to learn to keep their booger hooks off the bang switch

ajgranda
02-19-2012, 18:02
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.

Exactly! I think Kahr was able to push the trigger pull up to 10 lbs and still have it function nicely. Obviously that wasn't good enough for NYPD. I really feel for all the NYPD officers out there.
I still can't believe that they have 12 lb triggers on their Glocks. It's no wonder so many never legitimately pass their qualifications without some assistance.:whistling:

ithaca_deerslayer
02-19-2012, 18:03
. . .The striker is in the exact same 3/4 (if not more) cocked position on both. The reason the trigger feels different is because Kahr has made it so that you have to pull further to get the same mechanical movement of the striker, making the trigger feel smoother. Kahr has nothing sitting in front of the striker as a back up safety like Glock does.

As I understand it, Kahr does have a striker block in the way of the striker. Pulling the trigger moves something that in turn moves the block out of the way. It is diagramed and descibed in a Kahr brochere I have. Here it is described on Wikipedia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahr_Arms

And here go to the tab half way down the middle of the page, tab called "slide assembly" and you can see the actual part called "striker block" and currently costs $28.60.

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

Narkcop
02-19-2012, 18:10
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.

:thumbsup:

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 18:15
What pistol meets your high standards?:upeyes:

Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue

NMGlocker
02-19-2012, 18:16
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?
Kahr quite trying to meet the NYPD standard. ie: Kahr dropped NYPD.

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.
Department "standards" are retarded.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.
The trigger "failures" are due to the trigger weight being so far out of the original design parameters that the requirements cause the problems. Just like New Jersey's ridiculous neutering on the SW99 .40 magazines which resulted in feed issues. Idiots behind a desk second guessing firearms designers is the root cause of the failures.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?
I don't have to be a professional football coach to know the St. Louis Rams suck and are making poor decisions that are negatively affecting their performance.

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section
Learn what? How to turn out 35,000 mediocre to poor shooters with finger discipline issues? No thanks.

They are always willing to help brother departments
How many departments have followed NYPD's "lead in adopting 12#+ trigger pulls on their firearms? Looks to me like nobody wants your "help".

:upeyes:

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 18:17
:thumbsup:

It's rather like watching two chimps groom each other:rofl::rofl::rofl:

ithaca_deerslayer
02-19-2012, 18:17
I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.

The obvious solution is to buy them both.

Or get a 26 and an LCP, that makes a nice combination. One for carry most the time, and the other for when your clothing or situation requires a really small gun.

NMGlocker
02-19-2012, 18:24
btw: FLETC runs just as many USBP agents through their academy as the NYPD does and they are just fine with a 6# LEM trigger and have far fewer ND issues.
I shoot with their instructor cadre and many of their Agents and to a man they are solid on safety and the fundamentals.

ithaca_deerslayer
02-19-2012, 18:25
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue

I think you are right here. Not sure why so many take issue with this part of the discussion. It is simply a matter of satisfying the customer.

If a customer went to the ithaca_deerslayer factory and said they wanted an order of 30,000 handguns and they want it to have a 13lb trigger, I'd say "Ok" and then we'd just negotiate the price for that modification. I suppose I could just say "No", but that wouldn't seem good business.

seanmac45
02-19-2012, 18:37
btw: FLETC runs just as many USBP agents through their academy as the NYPD does and they are just fine with a 6# LEM trigger and have far fewer ND issues.
I shoot with their instructor cadre and many of their Agents and to a man they are solid on safety and the fundamentals.


Can you provide a reference for the ND stats of either the FLETC OR the USBP? Because if not your just blowing smoke.

Either way, your opinion of the NYPD counts for naught no matter how many cadres you shoot with:rofl:

I am done with this thread have fun.

ronin.45
02-19-2012, 18:37
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue

"BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW?"

They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing! As a community, they are known to be sub-par shooters who don't care about practicing or training. As an organization, the NYPD is much more concerned about the legal ramifications of their officers shooting someone than making a gun more functional or safer. They would be far better off focusing a little more on training their idiots than making a perfectly good gun idiot proof.

"what is Kahr's issue?"

They use a different trigger mechanism than all the other manufacturers you mentioned. Why would you think they COULD do the exact same thing to theirs? If the designers of a machine say it can't be done, why would you doubt them? I guarantee you that Kahr's engineers know more about P9s than the NYPD does.

greenlion
02-19-2012, 18:39
Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.


Who would try to do a trigger job on a KAHR? It is the lightest, smoothest double action only trigger I have ever felt. More than likely they were trying to make it heavier in some way, and the KAHR trigger group doesn't lend itself to being made worse.

RWBlue
02-19-2012, 19:00
Who would try to do a trigger job on a KAHR? It is the lightest, smoothest double action only trigger I have ever felt. More than likely they were trying to make it heavier in some way, and the KAHR trigger group doesn't lend itself to being made worse.

It is an ok double action trigger, but.....

There are many who would like to make their Khar trigger more Glock like. (Myself being one of them.)

If Glock made a gun the size of a PM9, ......

ddbtoth
02-19-2012, 19:16
Makes it sound like the NYPD rank and file have room temperature IQs.

Metal Angel
02-19-2012, 19:28
The obvious solution is to buy them both.

You are so right!:supergrin: Problem is, I really don't have the money to buy both right now... I will probably get them both eventually, but right now it's one or the other.:crying:

PhantomF4E
02-19-2012, 20:01
Accidental discharges :rofl: oops it just went off . Where was your finger and where were you pointing it ? Doesn't any one of these brilliant lawyer types get that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge ? The only accidental discharge is a negligent discharge, period , shooter's fault, end of story .....

sns3guppy
02-19-2012, 20:10
I have several Kahrs, though I don't own the T9. I have the P40's and K40's.

I have no issues with the metal K40's; they're reliable functional, and the trigger is one of the best features (size being the other).

The P40's have had reliability issues; failure to return to battery being the primary issue. The handguns tend to hang out of battery by a very slight amount, primarily when the magazine is full. Upward pressure of the magazine on the slide causes the slide to poorly engage the back of the rails as it comes home, and it's not uncommon for the slide to hang out of battery just slightly.

I've had this happen many times, and can duplicate it in handling by hand-cycling the slide, easily. When performing double taps, if the slide didn't return all the way, it was noticeable in the trigger generally, or on the rare occasion, by the click as the trigger was fine, but the striker was tripped and the slide dropped home. The pistol had to be recycled by hand before it could be fired again.

On one occasion several years ago, I didn't detect that the slide hadn't returned fully to battery, and when I pressed the trigger, concentrating only on the front sight, the P40 discharged. I felt an odd burning in my right hand and along my face below my safety goggles. When I took my focus from the front sight, I saw the side panel of the firearm blown out and it was burns on my hand and face that I felt.

The weapon discharged out of battery, cycled without any lock time, and the pressure vented into the magazine and out the "blow out" panel that covers the trigger draw bar. Kahr informed me it was designed that way, for just such a reason.

I sent my P40 back to Kahr, as I had several times before; they replaced the slide, but not the frame, sending back the frame with the same crooked blow-out panel/draw-bar cover pushed into place, and told me they couldn't find anything wrong (why did they replace the slide, then?). The pistol continued having failures to return to battery.

I believe they could easily solve the return to battery issue by changing the radius on the cuts and rails at the rear of the frame and in the slide. The pistols are light and comfortable, especially when carrying for long periods. I don't carry any of mine now, because I don't trust them any more; far too many trips back to Kahr (with replacement of barrel, slide, and other parts each time), and far too many of the same malfunctions between each of the same or similar models that I have. I like them; I have hope for them some day but they sit in my safe for now.

The trigger is the absolute least of the issues with Kahr, and in my opinion, it's one of the best features. It's smooth, easy to shoot quickly and accurately, and has absolutely NO need of a heavier weight. Anyone that can't safely carry and shoot the firearm has some serious handling issues. Then again, the NYPD is known for that, which is why the NYPD has such heavy Glock triggers in the first place. (The NYPD is the only thing wrong with Glock, but that's a different topic). What do we expect from a city and state that's so anti-firearm?

The beauty of the Kahr trigger is that it requires no safety, is very safety to carry and handle, and doesn't discharge unless the trigger is pressed. Even in my case, the firearm didn't go off until I pressed the trigger. I don't believe for a moment that if I had dropped the weapon, it would have discharged; it wouldn't. It couldn't. If I'd struck it from the rear, the most that would have happened would have been the slide slipping home, and making the weapon fully safe to fire again. The fault, and I've seen it in numerous Kahrs, is failure to return to battery. Fix that, and it's a great weapon. It occurs only in the polymer Kahrs that I've seen, and thus far I've only seen it happen in the .40's; never in the 9's.

RWBlue
02-19-2012, 20:21
I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.

I have PM9, G26, G19, G17. So maybe I can help.

The PM9 is a great gun with a special purpose. If you need a VERY small gun for personal protection then this is it. This is NOT the gun I want for home protection. This is not the gun I would want in a protracted battle. To be perfectly honest, it is not fun at the range. It is on the other hand perfect for it's job.

If you are looking for a side arm/home protection/target shooting gun, then you can look at the Glock line.

The worst part about the Glock line is deciding if you want baby, mid, full sized gun. I find most shooters shoot the full size slightly better, but I think the more experienced you are the more the advantages of the full size disappear.

One more thing, I find the conversion kit worth it.

Narkcop
02-19-2012, 20:23
It's rather like watching two chimps groom each other:rofl::rofl::rofl:


When name calling starts it makes me embarassed for you.:upeyes:

BudMan5
02-19-2012, 20:56
I am a retired police chief a really (not anywhere near 35,000 sworn) small department.

I really like my Glocks, i carry my 19 just about every day. When i am not carrying my 19 i carry a Kahr PM9.

I shoot both every Monday morning at a local range. Always at least a total of 100 runds but usually 200 rounds. Being retired has some perqs including a wife that doersn't like me hanging around the house too much.

I was trying to remember when was the last time I had a failure to feed/eject/fire with either gun and I can't.

Both are excellently made pistols and neither has a trigger pull that is too heavy or too light.

A thirteen pound trigger pull is freakling insane.

No, seriously, it is freaking totally insane.

RYT 2BER
02-19-2012, 22:00
I expect complete ignorance related to anything gun related in the peoples socialist republik of new york., and that includes NY law enforcement...

As such, idiocy like 13lb trigger pulls are right in line with bloombergs finest...

Metal Angel
02-19-2012, 22:00
If you are looking for a side arm/home protection/target shooting gun, then you can look at the Glock line.

The worst part about the Glock line is deciding if you want baby, mid, full sized gun. I find most shooters shoot the full size slightly better, but I think the more experienced you are the more the advantages of the full size disappear.

One more thing, I find the conversion kit worth it.

I do have a 19, and I have shot and carried my dad's 27, so I am pretty familiar with glocks. I have no use for a full size or long slide 9, so the 26 will complete my 9mm glock collection. I really don't care about 40 or 45 either, but eventually I will get a 23 and a 21 in case SHTF and I am picking up whatever ammo I can find. And that will be my full glock collection, so I'm really not having any trouble determining which glock to get, just whether I want a 26 or PM9. I carry my 19 all winter without problem, and I do find comfort in its capacity, but it is too big in the summer. The 26 just might cure this problem, and if it does, it really is better than the PM9 in almost every way. I guess I'm feeling like I want a 26 regardless, so maybe I should get it first, and if I still leave it at home sometimes, I'll get a PM9.

Today I was thinking about it while sitting in a restaraunt, if a BG walked in the door right now and started shooting people, I would feel very comfortable engaging him with my 19, but only six shots in a gun so small it might be hard to control... I don't know if I would feel comfortable engaging him with the PM9. Sure the 26 is not a 19, but ten rounds is still a lot more than six, and I shoot my dad's 27 just as good as my 19 (slightly slower follow up shots) so I know I would be comfortable shooting a 26.

RWBlue
02-19-2012, 22:18
I do have a 19, and I have shot and carried my dad's 27, so I am pretty familiar with glocks. I have no use for a full size or long slide 9, so the 26 will complete my 9mm glock collection. I really don't care about 40 or 45 either, but eventually I will get a 23 and a 21 in case SHTF and I am picking up whatever ammo I can find. And that will be my full glock collection, so I'm really not having any trouble determining which glock to get, just whether I want a 26 or PM9. I carry my 19 all winter without problem, and I do find comfort in its capacity, but it is too big in the summer. The 26 just might cure this problem, and if it does, it really is better than the PM9 in almost every way. I guess I'm feeling like I want a 26 regardless, so maybe I should get it first, and if I still leave it at home sometimes, I'll get a PM9.

Today I was thinking about it while sitting in a restaraunt, if a BG walked in the door right now and started shooting people, I would feel very comfortable engaging him with my 19, but only six shots in a gun so small it might be hard to control... I don't know if I would feel comfortable engaging him with the PM9. Sure the 26 is not a 19, but ten rounds is still a lot more than six, and I shoot my dad's 27 just as good as my 19 (slightly slower follow up shots) so I know I would be comfortable shooting a 26.

It sounds like you have your mind made up.

Only thing I will add is do try a G21. I like it so much, I have 3.

Metal Angel
02-19-2012, 23:15
It sounds like you have your mind made up.

Only thing I will add is do try a G21. I like it so much, I have 3.

G21 is definitely on my list. It will be my next purchase after the 26, assuming the 26 works out for summer carry... If it doesn't, I will be back to the PM9... And then a 21.

brausso
02-19-2012, 23:50
Can you provide a reference for the ND stats of either the FLETC OR the USBP? Because if not your just blowing smoke.

Either way, your opinion of the NYPD counts for naught no matter how many cadres you shoot with:rofl:

I am done with this thread have fun.

you should be because you got ***** slapped around by everyone in this thread

herose
02-20-2012, 00:38
Originally Posted by seanmac45

It's rather like watching two chimps groom each other..

So is this the standard type of response when you are LOSING an argument? What an idiot.

Rinspeed
02-20-2012, 08:10
When name calling starts it makes me embarassed for you.:upeyes:






What do you expect, he's from NY. :rofl:

bdcremer
02-20-2012, 09:34
So much to say. Gun ignorant people making decisions about guns is getting old.

DrtyHarry
02-20-2012, 10:00
My buddy is a NYC LEO and they told him not long ago that he could no longer use his Kahr off duty. He has very few options, and he narrowed it down to Glock or Sig....but can't carry anything larger than 9mm (as per law in the BRONX!). Only the BGs are allowed larger calibers. I'm going to try and see if I can get his dept. memo about it.




Harry

alabaster
02-20-2012, 10:02
Pull weight coulda been 2oz. doesn't matter. Finger OFF THE TRIGGER! I had an instructor @ a subgun operator class that used to keep his gun on full auto and preached trigger control for letting off 1,2,3 rds and such. He wasn't just yapping either. He had us all doing it at the end of the 5 day course. There was NEVER and ND in that class while I was there, and I'd not heard of one prior. If you have people bustin off shots accidentally, then they may was to re evaluate who they're letting carry guns.

seanmac45
02-20-2012, 11:34
I had decided to leave this thread but feel the need to revisit it one last time. The post that precipitated this response was very brief but so full of meaning and so perfectly indicative of the mindset of many of the posters in this thread that I could not overlook it. I therefore want to take a moment to properly acknowledge and thank that individual for providing me with the proper motivation to frame this reply.

“They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing!”

Yes indeed, the subject of this discussion is an organization that consists of cops, the NYPD. To place a finer focus on it, most of the comments are narrowly and specifically directed at the policies and standards of the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS). Stupid, ridiculous, retarded and more have been the adjectives used to describe the standard 12 pound trigger pull mandated for service weapons in use by MOS.

Such comments reveal the true naïveté and ignorance of the authors. Those scathing comments are made by gun people. What you fail to perceive is the fact that cops are, overwhelmingly NOT gun people. If there are 500 gun people present in today's current force of 35,000 then I would be surprised. To us, the members of the gun culture, firearms are a passion, a hobby and apparently in the case of some of the participants in this thread an obsession. To the average cop their sidearm is a tool of the trade and one that they fervently aspire to never have to utilize. That is the type of mindset faced not only by NYPD FTS but by law enforcement trainers the world over. Cops, for the most part despise having to qualify with their weapons and many only begrudgingly do so under the immediate threat of taking a rip. Many of them are not only poor shots, some are even terrified of the things. Many have never even held a firearm, much less fired one prior to their first day of training at Rodman's neck.

Yet, even with such a daunting student body the staff of FTS manage to turn them into safe shooters in a VERY short period of time. Do they turn out master gunfighters? Rarely, if ever. FTS range facilities are full to capacity seven days a week keeping up with all of the training requirements they've got to accomplish during the year. Keep in mind that each class is hobbled by the lowest common denominator, that guy or gal who HATES their weapon and can barely achieve that minimum passing grade.

NYPD’s FTS also hosts trainers from across the country who come to learn and exchange tactics and methods. FTS instructors compete locally and nationally and there are multiple showcases of awards and trophies on display up at Rodman’s Neck for all to see.

Each and every shot fired by an MOS of the NYPD is recorded on a Firearms Discharge/Assault form. Those forms and the information thereon wind up at FTS. Every shooting is broken down and analyzed, all with an eye towards improving training and officer safety standards. The results are published yearly in a document called SOP 9. It is provided to any law enforcement agency which requests a copy free of charge. Many departments nationwide use the knowledge imparted therein to enhance their training methods and practices. We don’t hide our mistakes, we learn from them and use them to help others.

So how do they perform, the FTS graduates with their 12 pound trigger pull service weapons? To the rabid critics of this thread, they perform horribly. Again, such beliefs are born out of ignorance. You fail to realize that for every single publicized instance of firearms mishandling published in the media there are literally tens of thousands of armed confrontations and felony pursuits and apprehensions that go off without a hitch. Cops approach individuals at gunpoint in NYC a few hundred times each and every day of the week. How can that occur with so many non-gun people wielding pistols? Could it be the result of training and equipment standards that are viable? Not to the posters in this thread.

What about that onerous 12pound requirement? Isn't it a band-aid approach to a training issue? Doesn't it exist as a result of administrative pencil-pushing reliability concerns? My answer is an overwhelming yes to both questions. In a perfect police world all MOS would be competent pistoleros and there would be enough training funds and facilities to ensure the production of such proficient shooters. The fact that Kahr is unable to safely meet it is just too bad for them. Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all can and do so with no drama whatsoever.

Welcome to the real world of the NYPD, Glock Talk posters. Our officers operate in a venue that is so densely populated that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting five people, two of which are PETA activists. The training facilities are overburdened, poorly maintained and definitely underfunded. No one has the time to babysit a weapon that doesn't perform up to standards, whether the posters on this board agree with them or not. That causes many in this thread to become butt hurt. Isn’t that a pity?

"They are cops".

Yes indeed they are. For the record, it gives me the greatest pride to be associated with the poorest shot on the NYPD as compared to the disdain I feel for associating with the arrogant, know it all, chest beating, challenge coined avatar bearing persons involved with this thread.


Feel free to resume bashing the NYPD.

RWBlue
02-20-2012, 11:48
Pull weight coulda been 2oz. doesn't matter. Finger OFF THE TRIGGER! I had an instructor @ a subgun operator class that used to keep his gun on full auto and preached trigger control for letting off 1,2,3 rds and such. He wasn't just yapping either. He had us all doing it at the end of the 5 day course. There was NEVER and ND in that class while I was there, and I'd not heard of one prior. If you have people bustin off shots accidentally, then they may was to re evaluate who they're letting carry guns.

Although I see your point...
There is a reason most people don't want a target trigger on their carry gun and the military has proven that MOST people can not pop, 1,2, 3 shots off at will. With full auto, the first shot under stress is usually a full mag.

Bruce M
02-20-2012, 12:03
.... To the average cop their sidearm is a tool of the trade and one that they fervently aspire to never have to utilize.
...Each and every shot fired by an MOS of the NYPD is recorded on a Firearms Discharge/Assault form. Those forms and the information thereon wind up at FTS. Every shooting is broken down and analyzed, all with an eye towards improving training and officer safety standards.
... Cops approach individuals at gunpoint in NYC a few hundred times each and every day of the week. How can that occur with so many non-gun people wielding pistols? ....


Whether one likes their 12 lb trigger or not, and likes their training or not, from an objective standpoint of analyzing the frequency of pistols being pointed and the rather sparce number of incidents in which a shot is fired with no intent, one might be inclined to at least grudgingly admit that based on the available resources statistically they do pretty good. Maybe even better than agencies with a tiny fraction of the number of officers. And to make a comparison using any other group of people who may not be apprehending subjects at gun point, and dealing with others who turn to not be criminals at gunpoint is probably frivolous.

HKLovingIT
02-20-2012, 12:12
I had decided to leave this thread but feel the need to revisit it one last time. The post that precipitated this response was very brief but so full of meaning and so perfectly indicative of the mindset of many of the posters in this thread that I could not overlook it. I therefore want to take a moment to properly acknowledge and thank that individual for providing me with the proper motivation to frame this reply.

“They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing!”

Yes indeed, the subject of this discussion is an organization that consists of cops, the NYPD. To place a finer focus on it, most of the comments are narrowly and specifically directed at the policies and standards of the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS). Stupid, ridiculous, retarded and more have been the adjectives used to describe the standard 12 pound trigger pull mandated for service weapons in use by MOS.

Such comments reveal the true naïveté and ignorance of the authors. Those scathing comments are made by gun people. What you fail to perceive is the fact that cops are, overwhelmingly NOT gun people. If there are 500 gun people present in today's current force of 35,000 then I would be surprised. To us, the members of the gun culture, firearms are a passion, a hobby and apparently in the case of some of the participants in this thread an obsession. To the average cop their sidearm is a tool of the trade and one that they fervently aspire to never have to utilize. That is the type of mindset faced not only by NYPD FTS but by law enforcement trainers the world over. Cops, for the most part despise having to qualify with their weapons and many only begrudgingly do so under the immediate threat of taking a rip. Many of them are not only poor shots, some are even terrified of the things. Many have never even held a firearm, much less fired one prior to their first day of training at Rodman's neck.

Yet, even with such a daunting student body the staff of FTS manage to turn them into safe shooters in a VERY short period of time. Do they turn out master gunfighters? Rarely, if ever. FTS range facilities are full to capacity seven days a week keeping up with all of the training requirements they've got to accomplish during the year. Keep in mind that each class is hobbled by the lowest common denominator, that guy or gal who HATES their weapon and can barely achieve that minimum passing grade.

NYPD’s FTS also hosts trainers from across the country who come to learn and exchange tactics and methods. FTS instructors compete locally and nationally and there are multiple showcases of awards and trophies on display up at Rodman’s Neck for all to see.

Each and every shot fired by an MOS of the NYPD is recorded on a Firearms Discharge/Assault form. Those forms and the information thereon wind up at FTS. Every shooting is broken down and analyzed, all with an eye towards improving training and officer safety standards. The results are published yearly in a document called SOP 9. It is provided to any law enforcement agency which requests a copy free of charge. Many departments nationwide use the knowledge imparted therein to enhance their training methods and practices. We don’t hide our mistakes, we learn from them and use them to help others.

So how do they perform, the FTS graduates with their 12 pound trigger pull service weapons? To the rabid critics of this thread, they perform horribly. Again, such beliefs are born out of ignorance. You fail to realize that for every single publicized instance of firearms mishandling published in the media there are literally tens of thousands of armed confrontations and felony pursuits and apprehensions that go off without a hitch. Cops approach individuals at gunpoint in NYC a few hundred times each and every day of the week. How can that occur with so many non-gun people wielding pistols? Could it be the result of training and equipment standards that are viable? Not to the posters in this thread.

What about that onerous 12pound requirement? Isn't it a band-aid approach to a training issue? Doesn't it exist as a result of administrative pencil-pushing reliability concerns? My answer is an overwhelming yes to both questions. In a perfect police world all MOS would be competent pistoleros and there would be enough training funds and facilities to ensure the production of such proficient shooters. The fact that Kahr is unable to safely meet it is just too bad for them. Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all can and do so with no drama whatsoever.

Welcome to the real world of the NYPD, Glock Talk posters. Our officers operate in a venue that is so densely populated that you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting five people, two of which are PETA activists. The training facilities are overburdened, poorly maintained and definitely underfunded. No one has the time to babysit a weapon that doesn't perform up to standards, whether the posters on this board agree with them or not. That causes many in this thread to become butt hurt. Isn’t that a pity?

"They are cops".

Yes indeed they are. For the record, it gives me the greatest pride to be associated with the poorest shot on the NYPD as compared to the disdain I feel for associating with the arrogant, know it all, chest beating, challenge coined avatar bearing persons involved with this thread.


Feel free to resume bashing the NYPD.

Yeah but, but, but...

Thanks for sharing your inside perspective. I appreciate learning and understanding the "whys" and "hows" of the way others do things.

blastfact
02-20-2012, 12:57
LOLOLOLOL

Like anybody in there right mind needs help from anybody in NYC or Brooklyn for that matter concerning guns or anything else.

glockaviator
02-20-2012, 14:53
Oh, and all along I thought the real reason was that the cute girls in the Kahr brochures were politically incorrect....

CAcop
02-20-2012, 15:00
The NYPD has the big problem when it comes to firearms training. Multiple generations of people have grown up in a city where firearms are rarely seen outside the uniformed officer on the street. Even those who have firearms only have a few ranges to go to. From what I recall there are only three public ranges on Manhattan. Three ranges for a million people. Then once hired quarterly training of 8 hours becomes a huge task. Let's do the math:

4 days of training per year
8 hours per training day
32 hours per year per officer
35,000 officers equals 1,120,000 hours per year just for update training.

Throwing in recruits ads more time. IIRC they run a few hundred through the academy every month and they do 2 weeks (80 hours) of firearms. Let's do the math:

200 recruits per month
2400 per year
192,000 hours per year.

So for recruits and just about everybody else (ESU or other specialty units will have more) it will take 1,312,000 hours of instruction or 54667 days (24 hour days not 8 hour instruction days) or 150 years (rounded to nearest year).

So in order to give every officer one on one training for a year you would need 150 instructors.

I can see why they put rediculous trigger pulls on their guns. Anything over 12 is rediculous. It doesn't really matter if Kahr failed to make the standard or they chose not to make the standard.

sns3guppy
02-20-2012, 15:23
How many other large agencies or groups of agencies (say, Homeland Security) are seeing that many negligent discharges a year?

It's one thing to suggest that 500 ND's isn't much, given the size of the department and the number of armed confrontations each year, but 500 is still 500 too many.

That's not a function of light or heavy triggers. It's a function of piss poor handling, period.

CAcop
02-20-2012, 15:57
How many other large agencies or groups of agencies (say, Homeland Security) are seeing that many negligent discharges a year?

It's one thing to suggest that 500 ND's isn't much, given the size of the department and the number of armed confrontations each year, but 500 is still 500 too many.

That's not a function of light or heavy triggers. It's a function of piss poor handling, period.

The next largest LEA is California's Departmentof Corrections and Rehabilitation at 32,000. They are scattered all over the state, mostly in rural areas with populations that are more like TX when it comes to guns than NYC.

After them is Chicago, which is probably closer to NYC in terms of guns but you might find a few gun folks coming to work in the big city from the burbs.

Then it is the LAPD. Despite the far left leanings of the city they have a history of some serious gunslingers. They allow officer to not only purchase their own sidearms but rifles and shotguns. Thay is unheard of for a large agency. See some of SAR's posts in Coptalk on their training.

17&27
02-20-2012, 16:03
I tend to think maybe NYPD does need 12 or 13 pound triggers, let's make that 20 pound triggers. I would hate for them to point a gun at me with their finger probably on the trigger with anything less.

seanmac45
02-20-2012, 16:09
How many other large agencies or groups of agencies (say, Homeland Security) are seeing that many negligent discharges a year?

It's one thing to suggest that 500 ND's isn't much, given the size of the department and the number of armed confrontations each year, but 500 is still 500 too many.

That's not a function of light or heavy triggers. It's a function of piss poor handling, period.


God only knows where you get your numbers from. There has never been 500 ND's in a year in the NYPD, nor any number even REMOTELY close.:upeyes:

seanmac45
02-20-2012, 16:10
I tend to think maybe NYPD does need 12 or 13 pound triggers, let's make that 20 pound triggers. I would hate for them to point a gun at me with their finger probably on the trigger with anything less.

I think Mommy should take your keyboard away. Which of the trolls with a new screen name are YOU?:rofl::rofl:

NG VI
02-20-2012, 16:18
This issue perhaps is similar to Glock, where someone pulls the trigger then says the gun went off on its own. Glock offers different trigger weights if individuals or departments want a heavier pull. If Kahr doesn't offer the particular weight NYPD wants, I don't see how that makes Kahr a POS.



This.

And did anyone else have a physical reaction to the article's claim that the NYPD wants heavy triggers to "make police officers understand that shooting someone is a serious thing"? That was disgusting. If those jakhoffs believe that the weight of their trigger is responsible for teaching their officers to respect human life and the consequences of firing off lethal projectile weapons, every single administrator and policy maker at that department needs to be sacked and they need to start over.

seanmac45
02-20-2012, 16:22
This.

And did anyone else have a physical reaction to the article's claim that the NYPD wants heavy triggers to "make police officers understand that shooting someone is a serious thing"? That was disgusting. If those jakhoffs believe that the weight of their trigger is responsible for teaching their officers to respect human life and the consequences of firing off lethal projectile weapons, every single administrator and policy maker at that department needs to be sacked and they need to start over.


Read carefully. That is not a quote from the NYPD, that is a statement by the author of the article who is a boob.

ronin.45
02-20-2012, 16:46
The argument that they aren't gun people is not even close to valid. I'm not a shovel collector, but if I get paid to dig ditches I'd be expected to use one without hurting anyone. They are paid to perform a job. They should be safe and proficient with every tool that they have. Increase the minimum standards and they would have to up their game to qualify. The instructors can't force them to practice between quals, but they certainly can fail them if they don't perform or are unsafe.

Once again, it isn't a shortcoming of Kahr that the NYPD requires a terrible trigger. They spent a lot of time and money to develop a good trigger, why would they ruin it because certain people can't follow standard safety rules. The other companies you mention(Glock,S&W) can easily change their pull weight with different springs and connectors. The Kahr trigger is different and can't be made that heavy without other negative drawbacks.

CAcop
02-20-2012, 17:00
The argument that they aren't gun people is not even close to valid. I'm not a shovel collector, but if I get paid to dig ditches I'd be expected to use one without hurting anyone. They are paid to perform a job. They should be safe and proficient with every tool that they have. Increase the minimum standards and they would have to up their game to qualify. The instructors can't force them to practice between quals, but they certainly can fail them if they don't perform or are unsafe.

Once again, it isn't a shortcoming of Kahr that the NYPD requires a terrible trigger. They spent a lot of time and money to develop a good trigger, why would they ruin it because certain people can't follow standard safety rules. The other companies you mention(Glock,S&W) can easily change their pull weight with different springs and connectors. The Kahr trigger is different and can't be made that heavy without other negative drawbacks.

It would be more accurate to say if you were a contractor you would know how to dig a ditch with a shovel but it isn't the only thing you need to know how to do or who to call to get it done.

Guns get used very infrequently in LE. Even pulling them to gain compliance or to search a building they aren't used very frequently. Ball point pens get used the most. Followed by compters. Do I need to know how to program my computer to use it?

seanmac45
02-20-2012, 17:05
He must own stock in Kahr or be a moonie. Only reason I can think of for such vituperation.

kahrcarrier
02-20-2012, 17:09
I trust Kahr more than the NYPD.
Thanks for playing......

captcurly
02-20-2012, 17:22
IMHO it is about trigger pull. Glock did the NY spring thing for them. It is also the old school double action revolver pull that has them (NYPD) in this mind set. Lawyers and law suits scare the crap out of Police Depts.

owl6roll
02-20-2012, 17:39
Pull weight coulda been 2oz. doesn't matter. Finger OFF THE TRIGGER! I had an instructor @ a subgun operator class that used to keep his gun on full auto and preached trigger control for letting off 1,2,3 rds and such. He wasn't just yapping either. He had us all doing it at the end of the 5 day course. There was NEVER and ND in that class while I was there, and I'd not heard of one prior. If you have people bustin off shots accidentally, then they may was to re evaluate who they're letting carry guns.

Yes! With an MP5, it's easy! Next time I go to the range I'll try it with a M4.

Sounds like a FINGER problem.

NailShooter
02-20-2012, 17:45
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW....
So what is Kahr's issue

Kahr's only "issue" might be that they don't want to screw up a safe and reliable trigger design to meet an arbitrary standard. Give the gun such a high trigger pull weight that you almost couldn't shoot it when you wanted to? Probably doesn't even fit within their trigger design parameters....

And I agree with the part in bold, "BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW...." Taken in the literal sense, that statement is likely true, with hiring quotas pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Now onto the next two pages of hilarity.

Nail

Metal Angel
02-20-2012, 18:35
Do I need to know how to program my computer to use it?

Jeez, no one is asking LEOs to be gunsmiths, just proficient in handgun usage. Sure computers and pens get used more, but computers and pens don't kill people when you screw up.