Is the J Frame For Back Up Consittered Old School [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Glocknload 19
02-22-2012, 18:34
Was consittering the Ruger LCR to my Glock 23 for a back up weapon but really got razzed from some of the guys in my agency. They consittered even the LCR as old school and suggested I choose a compact 9MM. I was told almost no agencys authorize the j frames for back up weapons anywhere in the country and they are outdated. Don't know how accurate this statement is. I feel that it would and always has been an excellent pocket back up. How many of your agencys still have the j frame on the approved list and how many of you do carry them for back up. Im a Bond Enforcement Agent and want to get the best pocket protection possible. Lot of the guys carry the LCP but im just not comfortable carrying a 380 even for back up. All opinions would be apperciated. Need to find something to qualify with soon. Thanks guys.

CJStudent
02-22-2012, 18:39
I know a lot of local officers carry j-frames as BUGs or off-duty pieces.

3Speedyfish3
02-22-2012, 18:43
A J-frame back-up rides with me on duty in my ballistic vest. Revolvers have distinct advantages over semi-automatic pistols. Wheelguns go bang when you pull the trigger and go bang again when you pull the trigger. An auto may be out of battery and not fire in close combat. It also may not cycle to give you a second shot if the slide is obstructed or the gun is "limp-wristed."

The downside to the revolver is the limited payload of ammunition and slow reloads, though, as a back-up it is a save your skin last resort.

I have no problem with five rounds of .38 Spl. +P 135 grn. GDHP's and a speedstrip in the right front pants pocket in case of trouble.

Randall

Sam Spade
02-22-2012, 18:44
I know plenty of agencies in AZ authorizing Jframes. Restrictions are generally based on caliber, not action.

I use a Jframe when I need a gun that will roam around from pants pocket to overcoat to car console. It's still a tool with niches. Not a primary gun by any stretch of the imagination, not even the best off-duty weapon. But for a "get the eff offa me" piece, it still has many positives.

Arvinator
02-22-2012, 19:33
Been wearing a J frame .38 snub for a backup gun since 1990, every day in uniform and when pulled tours for several years as a Detective. Currently I am working patrol, graveyards with a Glock 22 as sidearm, hammerless S&W snubbie on my body armor straps, AND a Ruger LCP .380 in my wallet pocket, a new addition this week replacing the Kel-Tec P-32 I had in there. When I wore BDU's, a second Snubbie rode there. My J frame saved me once in a bad problem, and well worth considering.

Denied
02-22-2012, 19:37
Old school was a good school, J-frames have been around for a long time have been proven over and over. I have several chief specials and keep one in reach all the time.

PattonT
02-22-2012, 19:49
My Dept allows J frames and the only disadvantage I see is carrying more than one caliber of ammo. I don't care so much about it only being 5 rounds as that helps save weight only. Have you thought about a CM40/PM40?
Actually a 40 pocket gun bites hard and Kahrs aren't always reliable out of the box so it may or may not appeal to you.

ArtCrafter
02-22-2012, 20:05
In addition to the comments above in support of the J-frame and those that may follow, I believe the title of this book says it 'all.'

The Snubby Revolver The ECQ, Backup, and Concealed Carry Standard (http://www.paladin-press.com/product/The_Snubby_Revolver/Handguns_Firearms)
Revised and Updated Edition (2006) by Ed Lovette

In it, the author makes a strong, thought-provoking case for the snubnose revolver, particularly in the backup role, and under the worst possible conditions (for example, "ECQ," or Extreme Close Quarters).

IMO, it is well worth reading.

HTH :wavey:

tc215
02-22-2012, 20:06
You posted this same question a few months ago.

The j-frame is still probably the most popular BUG for LEO's in the U.S., just like it was the first time you asked.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1384303

Patchman
02-22-2012, 20:33
A few months I asked one of our firearms instructor about this, and his reply was that going back to the .38 would be considered (for our agency) a step backwards. This was in reference to having to provide training, armorer support and ammo for the .38.

I'm sure if large enough numbers of LE agencies began allowing 9mm and .40 revolvers (J-frames/SP101s) as backup guns, companies will build them. I know I'd buy them.

kayl
02-22-2012, 20:42
A few months I asked one of our firearms instructor about this, and his reply was that going back to the .38 would be considered (for our agency) a step backwards. This was in reference to having to provide training, armorer support and ammo for the .38.

I'm sure if large enough numbers of LE agencies began allowing 9mm and .40 revolvers (J-frames/SP101s) as backup guns, companies will build them. I know I'd buy them.

I'd love a 9mm 642! (I know they made the 940, but why not make one now?)

DaBigBR
02-22-2012, 20:56
I want to be clear on something: are you a law enforcement officer or do you work for a bondsman?

spyd3r05
02-22-2012, 21:09
I want to be clear on something: are you a law enforcement officer or do you work for a bondsman?

From another thread : I have a G19 for a primary, a G26 for a back up. I am a bond enforcement agent as well as working frequently on protection details ......
Or was that Rhetorical? :dunno: :)

PattonT
02-22-2012, 21:10
I just realized you are in Florida. Aren't all armed security/Bail Bondsman/private body guards restricted to 9mm or 38spl?

PattonT
02-22-2012, 21:10
No, I'm not going to say it, I'll be nice.

Glocknload 19
02-22-2012, 23:28
I do Bond Recovery in Fla. And yes were required to carry 9mm 38 or 380 but in certain situations I am able to carry my G23. I realize I asked this question earlier but I was told to post on this forum to get responses from LE. If I'm not allowed to post on this forum as it is only LE only, I appologize, I wasn't told that. Thanks for all well, most of your replies anyway.

freeride88
02-22-2012, 23:45
It's certainly authorized here, and it's my everyday backup piece. It rides on the vest strap all the time.

BlisteringSilence
02-23-2012, 00:10
I have a 642. Love it. Carry it almost every time I work. I still haven't figured out where to stick my G30.

GumbyDammit
02-23-2012, 02:19
We have a couple of guys who carry them. I carry an LCP as a BUG on duty and a lot of the time off duty because it gives me a couple more rounds than my .38 spcl bulldog. Neither make me as comfortable as my G23 with a reload, but that doesn't fit in my cargo pocket nearly as well.

PattonT
02-23-2012, 03:35
I know this isn't what you asked but i find the LCR's trigger a lot more pleasureable and it doesn't matter what your "guys in your agency" say. Most of the whacker BEA's I have met would carry dual fullsize 1911's so pick a primary and a backup that make since. If you can can shoot a LCR and you will carry it then thats what matters.

Ajon412
02-23-2012, 04:03
I'm sure if large enough numbers of LE agencies began allowing 9mm and .40 revolvers (J-frames/SP101s) as backup guns, companies will build them. I know I'd buy them.

They do. Charter Arms recently released a revolver chambered in .40, with a 9mm and .45 ACP version soon to follow.

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/CARR.html

Taurus also makes a revolver in .40 S&W (405), 9mm (905), .380 (3801)

http://www.taurususa.com/2012catalog/

From the looks of them, the Charter Arms would be better suited as BUGs, due to their smaller frames...

PattonT
02-23-2012, 04:08
I'm not too confident in rimlless ammo in revolvers and especially with moon clip.
Also I'm affraid a 5shot 40sw may be too thick as it would have to be wider to accept 5 40's

Ahmid
02-23-2012, 06:59
Old school ??????????

eracer
02-23-2012, 07:02
No, I'm not going to say it, I'll be nice.Mind-boggling, isn't it?

SickShot
02-23-2012, 07:16
If you carry your snubbie as a back up on your vest, can you please post pix of how you do so???

Thank you!

Regards,

kayl
02-23-2012, 07:24
If you carry your snubbie as a back up on your vest, can you please post pix of how you do so???

Thank you!

Regards,

I can't carry a bug at my current agency, but I think most of the guys that are carrying on the vest are using the 5.11 velcro holster or an uncle mike's vest holster.

Steve in PA
02-23-2012, 07:25
Carry a 642 as a BUG both on and off-duty.

Steve in PA
02-23-2012, 07:33
If you carry your snubbie as a back up on your vest, can you please post pix of how you do so???

Thank you!

Regards,

I use an Uncle Mike's Belly Band Holster. The holster can be worn either on the outside of the strap, or as I prefer the inside of the strap. Carrying it on the inside of the strap holds it closer to your body. Also, when carried this way I do not have to use the retention strap.

This picture shows the holster on the outside of the vest strap.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Misc/um_bellyband_holster.jpg

PattonT
02-23-2012, 07:42
I do it just like this guy, I got the idea from him but I do revolvers instead. I'm having phone to computer troubles, if you will PM me your phone # I 'll send you real pics of a other holster options. My favorite is a Kangaroo Air Marshal(oddly enough given to me from a female air marshal who couldn't use it.) It has extra pouches in it.



http://phildorsett.com/images/bugcarry1.jpg

collim1
02-23-2012, 07:56
I have carried a jframe on duty as a BUG since 2004. I tried a baby glock last year and after about 3 months went back to my 442, I didn't like the extra weight on ankle.

scottydl
02-23-2012, 09:55
If you get to the point of needing a BUG, then the crap has really hit the fan. You better be looking for cover and conserving ammo at that point. Hopefully you won't need the gun for an extended gun battle, so the 5-6 rounds in a snubby (plus whatever extra speed strips you might have stashed) is generally considered "enough" for that scenario.

I'm not carrying a BUG yet (previous agency didn't allow and just haven't gotten around to it at new agency), but I plan to give my G27 a try if I can find the right holster. Otherwise I may be in the market for a snub-nose revolver. Anyone who might have an extra available feel free to send me a PM.

freeride88
02-23-2012, 09:58
If you get to the point of needing a BUG, then the crap has really hit the fan. You better be looking for cover and conserving ammo at that point. Hopefully you won't need the gun for an extended gun battle, so the 5-6 rounds in a snubby (plus whatever extra speed strips you might have stashed) is generally considered "enough" for that scenario.


This is basically my thought. If I'm going to the BUG, it's because some thug's laying on top of me trying to punch my head off, or I'm in a position to get away and get to another weapon. Either way, five rounds will likely be enough to fight my way into a better position.

jwhite75
02-23-2012, 10:13
Ask your buddies how many shots they will get off from a jcaket pocket or if they can just keep pulling the trigger if their sub auto jams?

It is a great backup gun all these years for a reason. get it and dont worry about i.

Glocknload 19
02-23-2012, 10:18
Thank you guys for all your helpful posts. Its seems most if not all of you carry some sort of reolover for back up. Ive really tried to research this and I think I probably overthought and created a dilema where there was none. I'd like to have and LCP for a third or hideout weapon and the revolver for back up. The allow me LE pricing at B and H Gun Rack in Merrit Island down here and can obtain a 642 new for 329.00. LCP for 279.00. Cant afford both right now. I do have a 26 but find it very hard to conceal as a second gun. The senario of the contact shot or arms reach distance favor the revolver. I'm probably going to look into an LCR or 642. More expensive than the 642 as Ruger does not offer as much of a discount as Smith but it's lighter and has a smoother trigger. Sorry for the novel. Thanks again for all your help.

Ajon412
02-23-2012, 10:28
I use an Uncle Mike's Belly Band Holster. The holster can be worn either on the outside of the strap, or as I prefer the inside of the strap. Carrying it on the inside of the strap holds it closer to your body. Also, when carried this way I do not have to use the retention strap.

This picture shows the holster on the outside of the vest strap.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Misc/um_bellyband_holster.jpg

This.....I've been utilizing this method of carry for years. It's really quite a comfortable mode of carry when on duty....This is the one I use....http://bellybandccw.com/

PattonT
02-23-2012, 10:41
Keep in mind we will rip our shirts open for our vest worn BUG's. Thats something to consider when planning your shirt/vest as most of you guys wear outer vest carriers.

collim1
02-23-2012, 10:59
Thank you guys for all your helpful posts. Its seems most if not all of you carry some sort of reolover for back up. Ive really tried to research this and I think I probably overthought and created a dilema where there was none. I'd like to have and LCP for a third or hideout weapon and the revolver for back up. The allow me LE pricing at B and H Gun Rack in Merrit Island down here and can obtain a 642 new for 329.00. LCP for 279.00. Cant afford both right now. I do have a 26 but find it very hard to conceal as a second gun. The senario of the contact shot or arms reach distance favor the revolver. I'm probably going to look into an LCR or 642. More expensive than the 642 as Ruger does not offer as much of a discount as Smith but it's lighter and has a smoother trigger. Sorry for the novel. Thanks again for all your help.

I prefer the concealed hammer 642 for BUG use, as in theory it is less likely to snag coming out of pocket or out of an ankle holster.

I have a 442, but being an ankle gun exposed to the elements and often neglected for months in between cleanings I have had some rust issues in the past. The 642 is more corrosion resistant IMO. If I had to buy again I would choose the 642. I have had to go at the 442 with fine sandpaper and cold blue a few times to stop rust pitting from spreading. It still works fine, just real ugly.

PattonT
02-23-2012, 11:19
The clear coat flakes off on the 642 so neither one will be perfect a few years down the road. I also have terrible powder burn marks on my cylinder that I am fearfull of using to strong of a product on. I found a 640 at a shop for $400 that was 95%plus but I'm getting back into the 20oz range again.

federali
02-25-2012, 10:47
J Frames, of which I own one and occasionally carry it, are strictly personal defense guns where you are the direct target of an assailant. Under no circumstances would I intervene in a robbery in progress which is likely to involve multiple assailants if solely armed with a J frame or Colt D frame for that matter.

When I must visit convenience stores or a liquor store, and now, small drug stores here on Long Island, the J frame remains home and I carry my G19.

unit 900
02-25-2012, 14:32
The clear coat flakes off on the 642 so neither one will be perfect a few years down the road. I also have terrible powder burn marks on my cylinder that I am fearfull of using to strong of a product on. I found a 640 at a shop for $400 that was 95%plus but I'm getting back into the 20oz range again.

Birchwood Casey makes a lead removal cloth that works quite well on stainless. I've used it a good deal on various S&W stainless revolver cylinder faces. The maker does caution against using it on blued finishes, but it's tailor made for stainless.

jbourneidentity
02-26-2012, 00:50
The officers who gave you grief over wanting a J-frame as a BUG haven't done their homework. The J-frame series of pistols is S&W's biggest seller every year. There's a reason for that...cops (and civilians) buy them by the thousands.

Besides, it's a secondary handgun; therefore, round capacity or the fact that it's a revolver is largely irrelevant. I love baby Glocks, but if I could buy anything as a BUG right now, it'd be a Ruger LCR.

ashtxsniper
02-26-2012, 01:19
I carry a G22 backed up by a Kahr P40. My third gun is a S&W 340PD airlite 357 mag j frame which is usually vest carried.

Southswede
02-26-2012, 19:06
I was told almost no agencys authorize the j frames for back up weapons anywhere in the country and they are outdated. .


I know of one Highway Patrol that issues S&W 642's to their troopers as back-up guns. Also, ask your source if he/she knows why Speer designed and makes the .38 special 135 grain Gold Dot......

collim1
02-26-2012, 19:28
I know of one Highway Patrol that issues S&W 642's to their troopers as back-up guns. Also, ask your source if he/she knows why Speer designed and makes the .38 special 135 grain Gold Dot......

That is awesome, it is very rare to see an agency issue a BUG/off-duty gun. I wish mine did, my agency does not encourage off-duty carry.

PattonT
02-27-2012, 03:35
Tennessee Highway Patrol issues a Glock 31 and a Glock 33

I remember hearing of somewhere that issued a Glock 22 a Glock 27 and a keltec

lndshark
02-27-2012, 06:50
That is awesome, it is very rare to see an agency issue a BUG/off-duty gun. I wish mine did, my agency does not encourage off-duty carry.

Michigan State Police issues 642's as backups, as does a metro Detroit suburb to compliment their G31's.


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Panzergrenadier1979
02-27-2012, 07:44
This.....I've been utilizing this method of carry for years. It's really quite a comfortable mode of carry when on duty....This is the one I use....http://bellybandccw.com/


Not that this has ANYTHING to do with the discussion at hand, but this website seems to have grabbed some of its LE pics off of the internet. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that one of the pics is of a local wacker-who-became-a-cop who was charged with theft and fired by his department a few years ago. He then reverted to his back-up job as a state constable (yes, he was a cop AND a constable simultaneously :shocked:) and promptly got himself arrested again, this time for official oppression.
I almost snorted coffee across my keyboard when I saw his pic on the belly band advertisement. :rofl:

Back to the discussion: Revolvers are authorized by my department as a BUG/off-duty weapon as long as it is .38/.357 caliber or higher. I only know one guy though who bothers to qualify with a revolver.

JMag
03-09-2012, 20:32
I've owned J-frames and as nice as they were, I prefer my Detective Special.