anyone use H110 or Winchester 296 powder ?

[preventec47]

Or Hodgdon Lil'Gun

I think 296 and H110 are the exact same powder and I'd like to buy a little for testing. My research confirms the density to be
similar to AA#7 and AA#9 along with similar burn rates.
Physics says that the heaviest powder charge will produce
the highest velocity when equivalent max pressures are
achieved. The reason is that the same mass of powder
is converted to the same mass of gas and if two max pressures are identical the greater mass of gas will maintain
the push longer down the barrel before pressures dissipate.

IF you put a lot of powder in and the pressure spikes too high, then use a slower powder to maintain lower max pressures with
a lot of powder.

I got the idea for these other powders from studying the 327 Federal Mag, 41 Mag, and 38 Super load data.

[Yondering]

Similar density to AA7 and AA9? Maybe.
Similar burn rate? No. H110 is slower, and hard to ignite if you can't get enough of it in the case. It's good for large volume magnum revolver cases; not so much for limited capacity semi-auto cases. I use it in my 45 Colt, but see no benefit to trying it in the 10mm. AA9 is already a little too slow, and H110 is considerably slower.

[_The_Shadow]

H-110 and Win296 are very dense, the charge weights would need to be such that they are compressed and the lack of a crimp groove on most bullet and the head spacing on the mouth of the case all work against the use of heavy crimps to get good ignition from the powders.

I think these two fall just out side the burn rate for performance.

[Any Cal.]

You need more case capacity to get enough in there to build enough pressure to be efficient, at least with the DT 230s I tried it on.

[preventec47]

Similar density to AA7 and AA9? Maybe.
Similar burn rate? No. H110 is slower, and hard to ignite if you can't get enough of it in the case. It's good for large volume magnum revolver cases; not so much for limited capacity semi-auto cases. I use it in my 45 Colt, but see no benefit to trying it in the 10mm. AA9 is already a little too slow, and H110 is considerably slower.
/////////////
based on the VMD info the weight of max powder should be
about the same as the AA#9 in any 10mm case.
As far as burn rate, I acknowledge the burn rate tables list it as "slightly" slower than AA#9 ( and anything that is "slighty" different to me is "similar" but not exact) but we have seen those tables as not being accurate or applicable in many applications. In particular the burnrate tables only list order and give no quantative values so I think they "could" be very very close. I understand everything you are saying ( and agree) but all I would like to do is try it with a couple of bullet weights in 10mm just in case we might be pleasantly surprised. Or you could just for the heck of it if you already have some. Same logic applies to Lil'Gun powder. How can we know for sure without trying ?
The cost of experimentation is next to nothing and the reward could be substantial no matter how unlikely.

[preventec47]

H-110 and Win296 are very dense, the charge weights would need to be such that they are compressed and the lack of a crimp groove on most bullet and the head spacing on the mouth of the case all work against the use of heavy crimps to get good ignition from the powders.

I think these two fall just out side the burn rate for performance.

I am only talking about minimum compression so as to not destroy the powder structure and if they are anything like #9 they are already so dense they cannot be compressed much. Based on the difficulty of my pulling the underwood cartridge apart, I can assure that crimp groove is not needed to obtain heavy crimp forces. Besides I dont think a lot of compression force is needed if the powder is basically uncompressible anyway. I'm not guaranteeing results I am just saying the cost and effort is insignificant and since these powders are the glowing performers in some other hi pressure pistol rounds I/we would like to try it. All it would take is a small portion of a small medicine pill bottle to make 4 or 5 cartridges

[Yondering]

In particular the burnrate tables only list order and give no quantative values so I think they "could" be very very close.

Could be, but they are not. If you want a slower powder that might work, try 2400. Powder density and burn rate are not the only variables here; H110 is a long way off from AA9, which as we know, is already a little too slow.

I understand everything you are saying ( and agree) but all I would like to do is try it with a couple of bullet weights in 10mm just in case we might be pleasantly surprised. Or you could just for the heck of it if you already have some. Same logic applies to Lil'Gun powder. How can we know for sure without trying ?


It has been tried already. Look through the Hodgdon load data thread. Velocity with H110 was pretty low, which is not surprising.

H110/296 work great in magnum revolver cartridges. Yes, most of those operate in the same pressure neighborhood as the 10mm, but pressure limit is only one part of powder selection. The 10mm does not have the powder capacity to make good use of H110.

Edit: It sounds like you aren't familiar with H110; be advised, it's a bit of an odd duck. One problem with H110 is that it's very picky about burning at the correct pressure. It does weird things when it's downloaded in revolver cartridges, and may show some of those same symptoms in the 10mm even with a full case of powder. Several rounds may feel like squibs, then one happens to light off just right, and BOOM you get what feels like a double charge or something. Not a powder that I would experiment much with outside it's intended use.

[Grimson]

2400 is about the slowest I would go as far as 10mm is concerned. I don't think that consistent ignition could be achieved with H110/W-296. If you do give it a go post your results to let us know.

[Taterhead]

Bringsteen did some testing with Li'l Gun. It is in the Hodgdon sticky.

[_The_Shadow]

Like I said the it takes a good crimp for best ignition with H-110/296...I had a squib in a 38Spl using a standard small pistol primer in a test long ago.

Hey if you wish to give it a shot go for it, just don't pop off double taps for the unsuspecting squib, I also suggest bring wooden dowels to be able to tap them out if it does happen. That way you'll be prepared and not lose your day at the range.

Let us know how it works out!

[preventec47]

Shadow, I trust your instincts but we know the 38 special
to be much lower pressure and perhaps the case was only partially filled when you did your test. I still have not seen anyone directly posting the use of H110 with 10mm loads of various weights and I am saying I'd just like to try a few
in side by side full case comparison with 155 gr , 180, and 200 gr bulletc. side by side AA#9 and any other slow burning dense powder. At the same time I do my AA#8 (eight) crono testing, I'd like to also have some H110 ammo to test as well as Lil'Gun.

I am especially impressed with the data here for the
327 Fed Magnum for the 100gr loading.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1397092
see message #35 attachments

[preventec47]

It has been tried already. Look through the Hodgdon load data thread. Velocity with H110 was pretty low, which is not surprising.
.

Yondering,
I did a search through the Hodgdon thread and I did not find any mention of H110 in the entire thread ? ? ?

Yep, I'd fill the 10mm case to capacity with it with 155 to
200gr bullets and record the results in a clear manner so everyone would know in the future. I'd also try 2400 and
LilGun with same gun and bullets if I can swap AA#9 powder or dollars or 155gr XTP bulletx with anyone that has any for a small amount like in a pharmaceutical pill bottle etc. I'm not going to buy a whole pound to test
maybe six-ten cartridges etc.

[Yondering]

Hmmm, I guess I saw that H110 data somewhere else, but can't remember where. The first page of the winchester powders thread has several 296 loads though.

Just in case you didn't realize it - be careful about asking someone to send you powder through the mail. I think Hazmat applies.

[Any Cal.]

You need more case capacity to get enough in there to build enough pressure to be efficient, at least with the DT 230s I tried it on.

Like I said, preventec, I did try it with DT230s, and a caseful didn't do anything noteworthy in the stock barrel. If you can try it with very short bullets seated long, you might get something, but it isn't going to be much. I think I was able to get something like 13g in the case, and you need @ 19g to make things happen. Lighter bullets won't help much, because they will require even more powder, but are still fairly long for their weight.

[preventec47]

2400 is about the slowest I would go as far as 10mm is concerned. I don't think that consistent ignition could be achieved with H110/W-296. If you do give it a go post your results to let us know.

Good Point, I just found the 2400 in some burn rate charts
and it seems to be outstanding in some 357mag and 44 mag loads and could be sweet for 10mm.

Also that new PowerPro300 has some outstanding performance
in some other mag pistol calibers.

[hubcap500]

If you'll check any of the recent Hodgdon manuals, H110 and W296 are the same powder, just different packaging. All loads listed are identical velocity and pressure.

[preventec47]

Ah I need to get back to my original focus.. that being
the AA#8 powder experimenting. I've got everything I need
now and instead of hunting for other powders, I'll just
begin to assemble my test AA#8 cartridges and wait for a good day to go shoot and test with chrony.

[Taterhead]

Speer has load data for 2400. Not bad. 5" barrel

180 gr: max = 12.8 gr @ 1214 fps (CCI 350)
200 gr: max = 12.0 @ 1152 (CCI 300)

As does Nosler with a 6" barrel:

170 grain (no longer in production but should be ok for 165s) Max = 12.4 gr @ 1130 fps. (WLP primer)

In both the Speer and Nosler data, there are other powders that give faster velocities - especially for the Nosler.

[CanyonMan]

H110 and 2400, are the cats meow for big bore hand guns....

I have used 2400 in the G20 10mm and it worked great with 200gr Cast bullets out at 100 yds. But i went back to BD and stick with that for now in 10mm.

I only use the H110 in 44mag and Casull loads and 45LC in very heavy doeses. as in 23.5grs with 300/310gr HC bullets. I believe you can do better in the 10mm with other powders than H110 and 2400. If I had to choose between the two in 10mm it would be 2400.


Others probably have greater wisdom than I.


Good luck !
Goood shooting






CM