List best barter Items to gain access to farm during SHTF. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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dennis3dflyer
02-25-2012, 00:56
OK so lets say a City Prepper wants to collect the best barter goods that can be used to gain access to a farm/home when shtf.

Prefer the lighter smaller the better.

I,m thinking

Heriloom seeds.

Kit to convert most wells to hand pump. anyone have an idea on where to get this?

Mountain House like dehidrated food 3 to 12 months for all on farm 2 plus families.

Firearms and Ammo.

Cash, Gold, Silver to buy supplies, ect.

Security & general Labor

I see alot of people having 5 to 40 acres and have none of the above items that I could bug out to and strike a deal with.

What tempting , needed items could I store that would sway these type of landowners to allow me an extended stay? Not on what I need to bring for myself/family sleeping gear ect. but on what the Host/Family Farmer/Landowner will need for them to allow me access to their land and home.

Thanks Dennis

Spiffums
02-25-2012, 06:12
LABOR! I wouldn't take in anyone for gold or cash or what ever on our farm. After while they will start to think it's theirs because they "bought" it. I'm not real sure I'd let anyone come up the road armed either, specially if I don't know you.

All these people who think they will just barter or work their way into a community after an event are sadly mistaken. I'm not real sure just owning 5 acres of land will help ya because no one will know you or care that you bought a part of the ole Smith farm.

walt cowan
02-25-2012, 06:54
booze.

Akita
02-25-2012, 08:20
Medical supplies and gold/silver. Maybe some cool explosives. Basically things that I cant stockpile legally now.

But you still wont get in unless you can convince me you are trustworthy and will pull your share of the work.

porschedog
02-25-2012, 08:23
A hot wife :)

Bolster
02-25-2012, 09:19
Who/how many on this forum are actually farmers?

kirgi08
02-25-2012, 17:09
:mememe:

shotgunred
02-25-2012, 19:59
Who/how many on this forum are actually farmers?

ME. Well I fall in that gentleman farmer area.
Other than diesel fuel and a strong back not much.

farmer-dave
02-25-2012, 20:42
Modern farms run on diesel. We also need fertilizers and herbicides. Take all that away from us and we aren't too much better then city folks. Except we do have land, know where the best soil is and have a fair understanding of growing stuff. Where farmers have a advantage is we store large quantities of stuff, such as diesel, seed etc. Of course our stockpile depends completely on the time of the year.

Their probably isn't much you can bring to the table, heirloom seeds would be nice. Security to guard items, labor for certain work. In all honesty modern farms are designed around not needing workers, take away the moderness and labor will be needed on some things. I guess if times are bad a sense of humor and someone pretty to look at might be worth their weight in gold.

I'd look pretty favorably on anyone who showed up with a diesel gen set. If it's a super volcano, meteor strike, even a pandemic, farmers are just as screwed as anyone.

Ruble Noon
02-25-2012, 21:10
Modern farms run on diesel. We also need fertilizers and herbicides. Take all that away from us and we aren't too much better then city folks. Except we do have land, know where the best soil is and have a fair understanding of growing stuff. Where farmers have a advantage is we store large quantities of stuff, such as diesel, seed etc. Of course our stockpile depends completely on the time of the year.

Their probably isn't much you can bring to the table, heirloom seeds would be nice. Security to guard items, labor for certain work. In all honesty modern farms are designed around not needing workers, take away the moderness and labor will be needed on some things. I guess if times are bad a sense of humor and someone pretty to look at might be worth their weight in gold.

I'd look pretty favorably on anyone who showed up with a diesel gen set. If it's a super volcano, meteor strike, even a pandemic, farmers are just as screwed as anyone.

How about draft horses and horse drawn implements?

kirgi08
02-25-2012, 21:49
Or steam engines.'08.

shotgunred
02-25-2012, 22:12
How about draft horses and horse drawn implements?
I have owned teams of horses and horse drawn implements for most of my adult life. its a hobby. You can't do as much in a day with a good team as you do in a hour with a tractor. Harness makers are a dieing breed. My last set of harness cost me $1500 and took almost two months to get made. Besides how many city boys have a team of horses in their back yard?

20South
02-25-2012, 22:17
Why not just spend all that money on some land of your own?

smokeross
02-25-2012, 23:23
Hey fellow. You got a FILE so I can sharpen this saw, tool, implement......

farmer-dave
02-26-2012, 08:39
If things get so bad that we are using draft horses to till the ground then the human population will have crashed to such a number that I'm sure land will be as common as air. Find a nice fertile spot and go to farming. Farmers are what 1.5 to 2% of the population. Kill off 90% of the population, not many of us farmers around.

Dexters
02-26-2012, 09:54
Modern farms run on diesel. We also need fertilizers and herbicides. Take all that away from us and we aren't too much better then city folks. Except we do have land, know where the best soil is and have a fair understanding of growing stuff.

Thanks for saying that - too often we get comments that rural folks are somehow immune to the same vagaries as city people.

nightwolf1974
02-26-2012, 11:30
Ammo, fuel, medical supplies, medical training, mechanic skills, labor skills, carpenter skills, hunting skills, vetanary skills, or any skills they lack or that in short supply.



Remember, offering food to a farmer might not cut the mustard. And offering your wife, daughter, or sister in trade might offend them.

smokeross
02-26-2012, 12:15
Ammo, fuel, medical supplies, medical training, mechanic skills, labor skills, carpenter skills, hunting skills, vetanary skills, or any skills they lack or that in short supply.



Remember, offering food to a farmer might not cut the mustard. And offering your wife, daughter, or sister in trade might offend them.
Maybe the medical stuff, but most farmer types I know already have those other skills covered.

TN.Frank
02-26-2012, 12:54
Tobacco, Sugar, Coffee, Salt, Pepper, Alcohol, Ammo.

nightwolf1974
02-26-2012, 13:42
Maybe the medical stuff, but most farmer types I know already have those other skills covered.

True, BUT after an extended time and possible illness, injury, aging, or death in the family or group, they MAY be open to some of what I suggested.

R_W
02-26-2012, 15:24
If I don't know you, you are not going to get very far on my farm--not until things have settled down anyway. After things settle down, a little company will be appreciated by many once they can trust strangers again.

Supplies that may work to get a second look? chocolate, coffee, sugar, salt, cooking oil, seeds, spices. Smokes and booze may work, but may backfire.

Offering your wife or daughter is a monumentally bad idea--it would either offend them or (worse) not--you do NOT want to be under the same roof with someone that would take your wife/daughter.

SKILLS and TRUST are what you need to prove. A good diesel mechanic will be worth something as long as there is fuel. An axe, crosscut, and maul with the ability to use them will be valuable when there isn't.

farmer-dave
02-26-2012, 17:53
Thanks for saying that - too often we get comments that rural folks are somehow immune to the same vagaries as city people.

A city would very likely get food and medical help before rural citizens. depending upon the situation, and the govts ability to help.

Dexters
02-26-2012, 19:04
A city would very likely get food and medical help before rural citizens. depending upon the situation, and the govts ability to help.

I've said the same thing before.

Fortunately, the rural vs city folk feud ended on this forum.

alexanderg23
02-26-2012, 19:22
You should meet, work with said farm now, it will be 100000 times easier now than when/if SHTF.

acg8276
02-26-2012, 20:58
The farmers I know and have worked for really wouldn't give a stranger the time of day if it came down to it and SHTF day came. All are self sufficient and would work with the neighbors before they would with any strange city boy.

Javelin
02-26-2012, 20:59
booze.

This.

Paul53
02-27-2012, 00:32
You all are too short sighted. As for me, I intend to have a huge stockpile of toilet paper! I'm gonna bring post SHTF civilization to it's knees! Afterall, no job is done till you do the paperwork!

A3middie
02-27-2012, 17:44
Unless you have rolls of fresh Copenhagen, keep on moving. We have an 82 acre tree farm so we could always use some diesel I guess.

ICARRY2
02-27-2012, 19:20
booze.

I think booze for barter is way overrated. I think the best items for barter are going to be things needed for immediate survival and protection, like food, ammo and gas. I wouldnt trade squat for booze, its useless and I can live without it.

I also think items like books, rechargeable batteries, dvd's/cd's, and portable dvd/cd players will be sought after to keep the kids happy. There is going to lots of down time and people need to be entertained and take their minds off shtf.

Javelin
02-27-2012, 22:45
I think booze for barter is way overrated. I think the best items for barter are going to be things needed for immediate survival and protection, like food, ammo and gas. I wouldnt trade squat for booze, its useless and I can live without it.

I also think items like books, rechargeable batteries, dvd's/cd's, and portable dvd/cd players will be sought after to keep the kids happy. There is going to lots of down time and people need to be entertained and take their minds off shtf.

You keep stacking those dvd/cds and toilet paper deep. You'll be trading up for booze after about a week of no internet & tv... sitting around and wait for dark and then daylight... over and over..

:wavey:

bdcochran
02-28-2012, 07:33
"The farmers I know and have worked for really wouldn't give a stranger the time of day if it came down to it and SHTF day came. All are self sufficient and would work with the neighbors before they would with any strange city boy. "

A big plus to this comment. I manage a large family "farm". Everything runs on diesel. The local guys doing the day to day actually have a tractor with treads!

If you want to spend money, then have the tools - leatherman tools, leather gloves, goggles, proper clothes (as in the cowboy attire thread), hoe, rake, cross cut saw, sawsall, tool chest with tools, shovel. It also helps to have initiative in repairing and making necessary items.

jtull7
02-28-2012, 11:35
How about a Sears Catalog for the outhouse? Some Alpo Healthy Treats for the chickens? Do you know how to milk cows? Apples for the horses, of course. You're good to go.

kirgi08
02-28-2012, 12:06
Some do,most don't.We do.'08.

BBC disc. :impatient:

ICARRY2
02-28-2012, 16:03
You keep stacking those dvd/cds and toilet paper deep. You'll be trading up for booze after about a week of no internet & tv... sitting around and wait for dark and then daylight... over and over..

:wavey:

No I wont. I'm not an alcoholic. I dont have to drink.

My lifestyle doesnt revolve around getting drunk and passing out everynight for fun.

Fortunately, you can recharge batteries and watch dvds over and over.

Once you drink your liquor it just gets pissed away.

runcible68
02-28-2012, 23:51
Cigarettes, booze and hot chicks. Just saying......:)

Devans0
02-29-2012, 00:27
Alcohol for fuel. Knowing how to distill is a useful skill, and there is a lot more to it than people think.

Dexters
02-29-2012, 04:01
How do you know the people on the farms will just take whatever you have and just kill you.
Some in this thread would.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18646554#post18646554

Ruble Noon
02-29-2012, 06:23
You should meet, work with said farm now, it will be 100000 times easier now than when/if SHTF.

This. If people want to be welcomed onto a farm after SHTF they should be making the connections now with the farmer they want to stay with. I really don't understand why people think they will be welcomed onto these farms? Maybe this thought is coming from the same people that think their pets get nice homes in the country when they dump them out here.

Jameson4all
02-29-2012, 12:52
Who says a farm will be the place you want to go in the event of a SHTF scenario? There are a lot of nut bags out there and a SHTF scenario is when you will see them come out, they will be like little gangs and you will need more than a couple shotguns to defend your property or what will be left of it.

bdcochran
02-29-2012, 17:30
Jameson4all is right.

Despite the interminable urban vs. rural bs (if shtf where you aren't and doesn't come to you, you are ok), imagine what happens when somebody arrives at the farm without tools, skills, hungry, and asks for work, but work isn't forthcoming, a warm bed, a bath, or other earmarks of civilization?

If all it took was a strong back and a willingness to work, you wouldn't have had the migration from the dustbowl in the 1930s.

If all you can offer is a couple cartons of cigarettes (hopefully not stale) or a couple of cases of whisky that you somehow transported without breaking, those items are going to be gone in a few days of trading. If all you have are seeds that won't sprout until next spring (even radishes take 21-30 days to be ready to eat after planting), good luck.

Like the itinerant automechanic, you are much better off having basic farming implements now and when shtf: hatchet, axe, cross cut saw, hoe, rake, couple of kinds of shovels, hand tools, gloves, eye protection, hearing protection. If you think that the farmer will have a spare set, you probably will lose the gamble.

dennis3dflyer
02-29-2012, 22:43
For those that added some things to the barter list thanks,, and yes I,d rather start making friends in the farmland areas now. But down the road I,d still rather have more options open as I,ll never really know where I,d rather be dependingg on the type of shtf.

Some of you current prepping land owners are really knocking this idea / option. But not all land owners think like you and after they can,t use there water well for a week due to no electricity and without an answer from govt, and there almost gunless with worrys of the looting begining to happening and foodless as they really never stored food just farmed some and I show up with a hand retrofit water pump. Mountain House food and guns and ammo. I think I will be GREATLY opening my options on where I can bug out to..

Please add what other Items such Landowners WILL NEED that I can store to barter.

Thanks Dennis

barbedwiresmile
03-01-2012, 04:33
Farmers have friends. We have kin. We have barns full of stuff. Why would a farmer want someone coming from the city to "bug out" with them? You were never there during a planting or a harvest. And you can't carry much diesel fuel on your back or in your trunk. Never took much interest before. Now you want in? The premise of this thread seems askew.

usmc4641
03-01-2012, 06:33
Modern farms run on diesel. We also need fertilizers
See what happens when your average city boy starts stockpiling this stuff.

NecoDude
03-04-2012, 21:44
I know on our farm, if you ask in July to hunt in October, you'll probably be greeted in October like an old friend. Ask in October and you'll most likely be told to hit the road.

Point is, drive around looking for a possible farmer to get to know. Offer to work for free to see "how it's done". Remember to keep your eyes open and mouth shut to learn how to do things. When done for the day see if you can come back to keep learning. Once you think the relationship is solid enough bring up your SHTF plan and ask if they'd like to be part of it, if they say no, well you need to move on and never come back. You won't be welcome.

But straight barter items should you fail to "cultivate" a farm relationship, would be chewing tobacco, smokes, sugar, flour, medical supplies, basic staples that the average farm house goes to town to get.

Ammo is all well and good but there's no way you could know what firearms the landowner has. And unless you have a large vehicle and spend tons of money up front to carry every possible caliber. 22cal is pretty common but beyond that is a toss up.

Good luck.

AK_Stick
03-04-2012, 21:59
I'd say your best bet, would be to get to know some of them, and prove you're willing to work hard.


And offer them a trade they can use. While they probably have some limited ability to do just about any of it, there's a big difference between a farmer who can weld a little bit, and a welding tradesman.

M1a65
03-06-2012, 03:31
5lb bags of salt. Your body doesn't last long working in the heat with out some water and a pinch of salt to replenish what is sweated out.

concretefuzzynuts
03-06-2012, 17:44
I've had a farm and still know a lot of farmers. It's a tight group who will be looking out for each other. Also, we already have a pool of day help who live in our community. Why would we want a bunch of soft hands coming to us from the city? Most big farms have their own fuel storage 500-2000 gal tanks. Do you think they drive their combines to the Texaco to fill up? Be realistic.... Just sayin.

farmer-dave
03-06-2012, 18:48
If things go bad, I want someone to have a kill-dozer. So stockup on dozers. :supergrin:

I honestly am surprised a farm is where everyone wants to head, I think everyone has been watching too much of that walking dead show. Society is made up of alot of people having skills, I'm a wheat farmer, my gardening skills generally arent the best. My parents are good gardeners, but not all farmers are the be all of food supply. Good idea to make friends with farmers, just like it's a good idea to make friends with a doctor, dentist, horticulturalist, engineer etc.

michael e
03-06-2012, 20:01
You all are too short sighted. As for me, I intend to have a huge stockpile of toilet paper! I'm gonna bring post SHTF civilization to it's knees! Afterall, no job is done till you do the paperwork!
I am with you, I buy it when the kind I like is on sale. I picked up two 48roll packs. Well the better half did the same thing not knowing I had. It was all in the gun room under my cleaning table. She asked why, said no one wants a ****ty ass , Zombie invasion or not.

blueyedmule
03-25-2012, 09:52
Friendship. I'm not joking. Don't wait, go make contacts now. If they know you and know you're a good man you're more likely to be welcomed. And be ready to work. WORK. Learn your weapons and tactics, and also ready to be taught. Bring your humility and honor.

Go make friends now. If this is your concern do not wait until it's too late.

Lowdown3
03-27-2012, 07:04
I've said the same thing before.

Fortunately, the rural vs city folk feud ended on this forum.

But your gonna throw gas on those embers anyways right? :wavey:

;)

To the OP- true bottom line is that if your not KNOWN to someone, LONG TERM, the chances of them trusting you enough to take you in is slim.

And let's forget the fiction story "I have an AR and I'll hire on as security" non sense. Yep, no one else in the world has weapons, especially not rural folks.

Build your relationship with the landowner NOW. That mean much much more than "hey Bill can I leave a tote of ***** at your house that I'll never take care of, check on or pick up but if something happens, I can come here and get it?"

It means cultivating and maintaining the friendship, SHOWING them you know how to WORK (most important aspect), showing them your TRUSTWORTHY, helpful and a good egg.

I'd be more impressed with someone showing up with a shovel, rack and axe than an AR. That person understands the WORK involved in this sort of lifestyle. I can arm them no problem, I can feed them no problem, but if I have to teach them/make them work, then they are WORTHLESS to me.

Prepare to...... work.

Lowdown3

bdcochran
03-27-2012, 07:31
Thank God I had put down the coffee mug before reading lowdown's posting. I burst out laughing.:rofl:

This rural vs. urban bs will go on forever.:tongueout:

Let me give you a real dimension on this "I'll work on a farm when shtf" stuff. I had a crew come in and plant 30,000 lolly pine trees by hand on my place in Louisiana. Do you have any idea what it is like to plant trees by hand on a humid summer day in Louisiana? Yet, people think that they will roll up their sleeves and go to work. Won't happen. I won't have access to the trees to plant and the volunteer urban labor will quit on the first day.

You know the Schwartenagger movie where it starts with him running up the steps of a temple in southeast Asia? Well, I have gone up those steps as a widower with a 7 year old in tow. It is one thing to go up the steps when you have been living in southeast Asia like the natives. It is another thing to step out of an airconditioned movie trailer and only have to run up for 20 seconds and then go back to the airconditioning. Sometimes, I just know that a lot of movie going, armchair survivalists aren't going to make it when they go to a farm and start digging ditches for a living.:dunno:

Dexters
03-27-2012, 09:46
But your gonna throw gas on those embers anyways right? :wavey:

;)



??????

jamalski70
03-27-2012, 09:47
I doubt any of you guys would even get a foot on the property, before a warning shot would breeze by you, or worse shot before you can explain your barting.

arclight610
03-27-2012, 10:35
Best barter item is to form a gang. Wait until harvest, attack the farm, take the loot.

Dexters
03-27-2012, 10:39
Best barter item is to form a gang. Wait until harvest, attack the farm, take the loot.

Will your be made up of Whole Foods employees? Will your gang have the knowledge on how to mill grain, bake bread, can vegetables, butcher animals, dehydrate food, and other preservation methods?

arclight610
03-27-2012, 10:53
Will your be made up of Whole Foods employees? Will your gang have the knowledge on how to mill grain, bake bread, can vegetables, butcher animals, dehydrate food, and other preservation methods?

Nope. I'll just trade it to someone that does know how. You don't have to be an engineer to be a sales rep. Anyways, I do know how to bake bread, can, and dehydrate food. I may have to outsource the butchering and meat processing.

barbedwiresmile
03-27-2012, 11:59
I'd be more impressed with someone showing up with a shovel, rack and axe than an AR...

Well stated

bdcochran
03-27-2012, 12:24
:wow:Best barter item is to form a gang. Wait until harvest, attack the farm, take the loot.

It just so happens that when you read recorded history, the campaigns took place at the harvest time. What a coincidence.:whistling:

People planted in the spring, pillaged in the fall, and kicked back in the winter.:supergrin:

Ok. I will live off the land. I will go to a farm in Minnesota, Kansas or Colorado in the dead of winter and offer to barter. Nah, that is too graphic. Instead I will go to Louisiana and live off the land when it is the rainy season (hint, the guy sharecropping my land has a tractor with a track, not wheels for getting around in the rainy season).

The reality is that most of the fresh vegetables in the "offseason" are grown along the Rio Grande. You import strawberries from central Mexico, grapes from Chile, orange juice from Brazil. When Roosevelt was President, one of his educated, urbanized intellectuals advocated a subsidy for pasta growers! And, if you think farming is just a sure thing, think Okie from Fnokie in the depression. When shtf and you go to work on the farm, the mules and the plow are long gone in the US. If you are lucky, you would be given a hoe, rake, shovel and a pair of ill fitting boots and put to work.:embarassed:

Dexters
03-27-2012, 12:31
Nope. I'll just trade it to someone that does know how. You don't have to be an engineer to be a sales rep. Anyways, I do know how to bake bread, can, and dehydrate food. I may have to outsource the butchering and meat processing.

So the plan is in a world where gangs roam free to pillage is to form a gang raid a farm and then go out exposing yourself to other gangs looking for someone who knows what to do with your spoils?

Are you going to go with a multi-platform, multi-social media approach - cell phone, craig's list, face book, TV infomercials?

I'm intrigued - tell me more.

arclight610
03-27-2012, 14:31
So the plan is in a world where gangs roam free to pillage is to form a gang raid a farm and then go out exposing yourself to other gangs looking for someone who knows what to do with your spoils?

Are you going to go with a multi-platform, multi-social media approach - cell phone, craig's list, face book, TV infomercials?

I'm intrigued - tell me more.

That's why you need to have the best gang. I'm the gang leader. I don't go out on jobs, or sell the merchandise. I just manage the organization in its entirety and the big picture. That's why you have lieutenants to figure out and arrange such things like raids and moving merchandise. They should also be the ones who recruit desperate, hungry, and dispensable people to find a guy who knows a guy who needs something.

Paul53
03-27-2012, 15:24
Still say you can't go wrong with toilet paper, if you'll pardon the choice of words. Lots of other good ideas here, though.

farmer-dave
03-27-2012, 19:34
I try to discourage nonfarmers from buying farm land but if you want to get to know farmers buy a piece of farm land and then talk to some farmers in the area and find a farmer that will do it on shares. Shares involve much more of a relationship then cash rent. I know lot's of doctors and other professionals that have purchased land that have nonrelated farmers working the ground. They put forth the capital and are developing a relationship. Seriously unless your family, or neighbor it's hard to make a connection with farmers. I dread anyone randomly showing up on my farm.

quake
03-28-2012, 06:46
I haven't read thru this whole thread, but having grown up on a farm, I'd agree with LowDown3 and bdchochran say on this page. In a "bad time", no way my father would have let any armed stranger "hire on"; especially not in a "security" role. :upeyes:

Think about your own homes. Whether rural or urban, in an emergency (Katrina, etc) situation; would you do that? Let some random, AR-15-carrying stranger become your 'security' guy? Nope; not a chance, and I can't think of one person I know who would do so.

As for the roaming gangs, that's why some folks have their own AR's, AK's & such. And infrared cameras, and normal-looking but un-burnable houses (yes, you can light my roof shingles on fire, and I'll still not have to leave the house... ;) ), and rocks marked with ranges on them. And backhoes, for that matter.

Sorry - low tolerance for folks who either are, or claim to be, or claim to want to be, predatory thugs. Like saying they plan to kill my kids or rape my wife, it just rubs me wrong, whether they're serious or not. Sometimes I kind of wish there was a "flipping-off" smilie... :dunno:

Lowdown3
03-28-2012, 07:01
The underlying issue is that people are looking for easy answers. They want to avoid all the nasty long term WORK involved in really making preparations for long term survival.

We can't "buy" our way out of every problem in life. Some problems require real work, out of the box creative thinking and long term commitment.

Lowdown3

Dexters
03-28-2012, 09:58
I haven't read thru this whole thread, but having grown up on a farm, I'd agree with LowDown3 and bdchochran say on this page. In a "bad time", no way my father would have let any armed stranger "hire on"; especially not in a "security" role. :upeyes:



Taking people in for work is a fantasy. Look at the divorce rate and how many people are scammed by people. But now in an emergency, this home/farm owner is going to be able to judge a person standing at their door with a gun in a few minutes as safe and worthy to join him.

Some people live in a fantasy world. The problem is that it is some one else's fantasy and they don't know their role is to be the victim.

R_W
03-29-2012, 15:55
Engineer775 said on a recent video each gallon of diesel used on a farm equals 500 man-hours of manual labor. I think, if anything, he is being conservative. A new John Deere has a 140 gallon tank. Do the math... No one will be growing CROPS besides the Amish.

If you can't buy a farm outright like farmer-dave suggested, lease hunting rights from one or two. Then WORK to IMPROVE the farmer's land NOW--help with harvest, fix fences, offer to build stock ponds (watering holes), driveway and road maintenance. Prove yourself now.

It usually takes 5-10 years for someone to prove themselves to a small community now, how long will it take when the balloon goes up?

mpol777
03-30-2012, 12:02
...I'm a wheat farmer...

I run a micro ranch/farm (~80acres) which is wholly different than your operation. I'm wondering what your thoughts are the ability of commercial farms to recover from an event that would make it impossible to work for a season. Say something in the order of a major disruption to the fuel supply.

I've been able to eliminate a lot of my reliance on outside sources of feed. Around here though, that is entirely dependent on the monsoon season and the rain that we get in a few short months. I could make it through one bad monsoon season without having to resort to external sources of feed. It would really put a hurt on me, but I'd be able to make it out the other side and still have something left. The year after I would need to give my pastures a rest. Even without financial constraints, which I assume would be huge, could you even bring your operation back online after missing a year of not being able to work the ground at all? Is there a crop you would switch to that would increase your chances of success or would that not matter?

All of the commercial farms here are on pivots. If they don't run nothing grows. They might be able to grow pigweed and tumbleweeds, but that's about it. I can't imagine how screwed commercial feedlots will be when millions of cattle, hogs and chickens starve. Or even worse, get turned out.

Little guys like myself are better insulated because we already have to do a little bit of everything. But if those big combines turn off it's going to hurt all over. And if they don't turn back on in short order, then I'd be in survival mode myself.

Which does go to the point of this thread. Commercial operations will have an abundance of a handful of things, but aren't diverse. Small outfits like mine don't do extra anything. If it's not for personal use and doesn't pay, then it doesn't get made.

R_W
03-30-2012, 12:39
Even before diesel, farms run on credit! If you stop either from flowing at just the wrong time, it would only take a week or two to have a big impact--a month could wipe out an entire region or crop type.

mpol777, dig into the fallout (which is still happening) from the MF Global implosion. There are a lot of medium to large farmers that got burned--many did not have any money in futures themselves, but their grain elevator or feed supplier did. The timing was perfect(ly bad) for planting and some farmers couldn't get their financing replace to get the seed/fertilizer bought or crops in on time.

That was ONE (largish) company that went down at the wrong time and dealt with the wrong way. My BIL got really lucky and only lost a few thousand, and that was just because he was in-between contracts and had most of his balance wired to a different account Friday afternoon before it tanked on Sunday. Otherwise he would have been about a mil. He is just a farmer running a hog confinement--and that is just one month's feed grain bill!

Protus
03-31-2012, 08:39
The underlying issue is that people are looking for easy answers. They want to avoid all the nasty long term WORK involved in really making preparations for long term survival.

We can't "buy" our way out of every problem in life. Some problems require real work, out of the box creative thinking and long term commitment.

Lowdown3

bingo.
Look around on the web...oh wait. Look at what the OP is asking.

What can i use to BUY my way in.
What do i need to buy for my BOB
What list should i look at..
what xyz should i buy....

etc etc etc.

So many folks think that a dollar( or insert item) will get them in. Why do you think we have all of the "barter" threads that float around the forums. "what should i stock to barter..."
Here's an idea. Prep and stock what you need now, and you wont need to barter for what you need but for what you "want" ie; smokes, booze,candy etc....

If i was a farmer, and if the shtf event was that bad that people were at my door step trying to give me 3 cases of cheap ABC store vodka all for the pleasure of sitting on my porch and eating my food...we have bigger issues.
As the farmer i'd be on lock down and so would my place.
And as the Farmer if barter /market places come to fruit...well...i guess i'll be offering up only 3 egg's for that bottle of single malt you got..not letting you on my land :cool:


urban vs rural-
short term events - power outages, floods, economic burps, the urban areas will get the aid 1st before the community thats 45 miles into BFE. That's commonsense...or you can go by one of the "experts" who thinks that living in a urban area is the way to go.....again, in a short term non violent event ( aka riots,zombies) urban/suburban life you will see infrastructure and aid come online before rural living.

Longterm events-
rural all the way. You have the means to be semi self reliant in both your food and power production if you chose to. The population density is lower. This means less riots,over crowding and depletion of supplies in the short term. The main issues are for the short term events as i already said and also for the mad max,red dawn,type events. Where the masses of un prepared may wonder out to in search of clean water, food, shelter and supplies. This is when the farmer/landowner will be on the defensive. Of course some who advocate urban living for shtf events, will now throw out the issue of "armed gangs" taking on the lone farm . Is this a possibility. Yes. It is also a greater threat in the urban areas due to the "target rich environment" that those areas offer. Will a gang travel 30 miles to raid farmer joe's crops or loot and pillage the local walmart and surrounding surburban homes 1st?! If proper networking,training etc is planned, you can defend your farm, but like most things in life. There is always a bigger fish out there......and as the farmer/landowner/survivalist your gonna have to pick your battles....as will those trying to take what you have.

my 2 cents....FWIW..ymmv...etc

Dexters
03-31-2012, 08:50
Longterm events-
rural all the way. You have the means to be semi self reliant in both your food and power production if you chose to. The population density is lower. This means less riots,over crowding and depletion of supplies in the short term. The main issues are for the short term events as i already said and also for the mad max,red dawn,type events. Where the masses of un prepared may wonder out to in search of clean water, food, shelter and supplies. This is when the farmer/landowner will be on the defensive. Of course some who advocate urban living for shtf events, will now throw out the issue of "armed gangs" taking on the lone farm . Is this a possibility. Yes. It is also a greater threat in the urban areas due to the "target rich environment" that those areas offer. Will a gang travel 30 miles to raid farmer joe's crops or loot and pillage the local walmart and surrounding surburban homes 1st?! If proper networking,training etc is planned, you can defend your farm, but like most things in life. There is always a bigger fish out there......and as the farmer/landowner/survivalist your gonna have to pick your battles....as will those trying to take what you have.

my 2 cents....FWIW..ymmv...etc

You might want to research a few things.

Rural - where is it? If you are living in the plain states you might find it.

Farms - where are they - again the plain states - there are smaller ones outside that area but they are not far away from cities.

Gangs - they are outside the cities.
http://www.kplu.org/term/rural-gangs
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1001/p3s1-ussc.html

Protus
03-31-2012, 10:43
You might want to research a few things.

Rural - where is it? If you are living in the plain states you might find it.

Farms - where are they - again the plain states - there are smaller ones outside that area but they are not far away from cities.

Gangs - they are outside the cities.
http://www.kplu.org/term/rural-gangs
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1001/p3s1-ussc.html


Again. It is event length dependent as i posted above . I did not say /nor imply the rural or even semi rural areas were free of gangs or crime or would even stay that way during an event.
Again like i posted above, the amount of crime and issues that you will encounter in an urban environment will start and intensify a whole lot faster than that of its rural counterpart.

Dexters
03-31-2012, 10:51
Again. It is event length dependent as i posted above . I did not say /nor imply the rural or even semi rural areas were free of gangs or crime or would even stay that way during an event.
Again like i posted above, the amount of crime and issues that you will encounter in an urban environment will start and intensify a whole lot faster than that of its rural counterpart.


The point is there aren't really many rural areas unless you live in the plain states.

Protus
03-31-2012, 13:28
The point is there aren't really many rural areas unless you live in the plain states.

Then your talking about re-defining what rural is.....:whistling:

fwiw there's a ton of rural that isnt just in the plains states....:tongueout:

Dexters
03-31-2012, 14:50
Then your talking about re-defining what rural is.....:whistling:

fwiw there's a ton of rural that isnt just in the plains states....:tongueout:


Obviously, the issues and discussion are over your head.

mpol777
03-31-2012, 15:10
I've been on farms and ranches all over the lower 48, Canada and Old Mexico. Contrary to Dexter's last point, they are everywhere. One of the largest cattle ranches in the US is on the big island of Hawaii.

Things are different all over. I can't speak for everywhere, but I can speak on where I live. Cochise County is bigger than the state of Connecticut and is mostly ranch land, farm land and public land. I'm 6 miles from the border with Old Mexico, so there is no shortage of folks running around the desert right now. Narcos, illegals and city folks coming out to hunt.

Guys with guns are Narcos. They leave me alone and I leave them alone. They know better than to cross a fence or approach a house. It will be a fight and nobody wants that. I've had people come up to my place. If you do that, you need to come hat in hand. I mean that literally. If you are in a bad way and near death, I'll get you some food and water and send you on your way. Most often, the folks that show up want me to call the Border Patrol because someone is hurt. City people that come to hunt get run off. In many places there is no love for city people. Large metros in the west make state laws for themselves. Regardless of how it effects rural people. Many rural people really do not like people in the city. If a city dude came down here trying to buy their way onto a ranch NOW, they'd have a gun in their face before a day is out. There is a lot of distrust and outright hate for folks from Tucson and Phoenix in rural AZ. I'm not talking Payson, Prescott, Show Low type of yuppie rural, but the dirt living folks. Small time or big ranch it really doesn't matter. I've seen city folks buy places out in the sticks and end up getting run off because they weren't welcome on land they owned.

Tucson folks that think they'll bug out to the Chiricahuas are going to be in for a surprise. The ranchers here stay in contact via HAM radio and there are eyes all over. It's the border. The Sheriff is someone that comes out the next day and fills out a report. Folks look out for each other and it is very clannish. If things get bad, don't expect there to be any more access. We're talking about guys with road graders and bulldozers. That road you scouted will not be there. The same goes for places in the White Mountains in Greenlee County, outside of Stawberry/Payson, Young and really all over AZ and NM. I wouldn't imagine running around on an Indian Rez will be taken to well either. I've hunted, guided and cowboyed up and down the AZ/NM line. There is a lot of National Forest and National Wilderness. I'm sure a lot of folks are planning to bug out there. When this subject comes up, most folks in those places talk about removing roads. Both dirt and paved. I'm talking about highways here folks. Rural people might be simple, but we aren't stupid. There's already fights over city people encroaching on rural lands, tearing things up, leaving their trash and acting like city people.

Even if you did show up, how would you feel if I showed up at your place in a deuce and a half with a mob of armed cowboys looking for a hand out? You'd be hiding the women and children. And rightfully so. Add in the fact that folks that live way out in the puckbrush are generally anti-social and sceptical of people... It's just not condusive to making friends. This is big country with few people. I can see a truck hit the dirt road from my house 6 miles away. If I pull up the binos and get a good look I can tell right there if it's someone that should be on that road. Just looking at a rig I know if it's a neighbor or not. If not I can typically tell if it's a local, Mexican or some kind of yankee city-mobile. Vehicles and people stand out here, because there just aren't any. Living in a place where a truck could be filled with 1500 pounds of dope and armed men willing to kill to protect it tends to make people that live out here very aware of their surroundings. Same goes for someone with an SUV city rig. They aren't supposed to be here and there is the potential they are up to no good either out of malice or stupidity. It might be fun for you to tear up through the desert or dirt roads in your truck or ATV. You don't have to fix that road, worry about hitting a calf or care that the torn up desert used to be pristine, feeds livestock and wildlife and means a whole hell of a lot to someone.

When I'm looking to hunt an area I don't know anyone, I do it on horseback. I look like a throwback to the 1800's and showing up on horseback with the right hat and boots and dogs goes a long way. In some places the same can be Carhartt and John Deere cap. You have to be able to walk the walk and talk the talk. And also have enough experience to be able to read the area to know if you even stand a chance of being welcome. How to talk your way out of a situation with grandma on the porch with a rifle. Don't assume she won't shoot you. She will.

It used to be you could show up in a farmer's driveway. Kick gravel a while over a cup of coffee and get permission to hunt. Just split some wood when you're done, share some of the spoils with the landowner, be responsible and you were welcome back anytime. Those days are over. Too many city people wanting it and messing it up for the rest of you. Too many beer cans on the ground, bullet holes in barns, gates left open and just plain disrespect. Add in city people making laws without considering rural folks and there isn't much love between the two groups. Everyone is unique and things are different all over. So it's not out of the question, but it surely wouldn't be my first plan.

I'm not trying to be an ass or start some kind of fight about this. What I'm describing is how things are now. Toss in some sort of event that stirs people up and I can only imagine the stress of the event would make things worse instead of better. The best advice I can give is to really know where you're going if you plan to bug out to the hills/mountains/desert/woods/swamp. There might not be a lot of folks out there, but there are people. If you aren't welcome there now, you won't be later. I'm not just talking about folks that are into "prepping". I'm talking about your average person way out in the middle of nowhere.

As someone that lives off the grid in the desert mountains and is also into S&P, I can say for myself there is absolutely nothing a city person could bring to the table that I want enough to trust them. I'm not trying to be mean or offensive here. You could show up with buckets of gold and a tractor trailer full of whiskey. It wouldn't change my mind. Please don't misconstrue this as saying that all will be fine and dandy out here if things go bad. If hard times happen in the city it happens all over. Thing is, times are hard out on the farms and ranches and the people there are used to having to deal with that on their own. It's the way we live every day. Not because of some calamity. Given the choice between making due and trusting a new person it is my opinion more often than not a person will just make due. It's about risk versus reward. Country folks are used to making due, so in the majority of cases the risk outweighs the reward.

I've really debated actually posting this. I really don't want to offend or piss people off. It's not my intention. As someone that is into S&P I totally understand the thought process. If the SHTF I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in Phoenix. As a friend says, "Phoenix is proof people will go to hell for money". I did. And then I got out as soon as possible. I'm not posting this to discourage people from bugging out. I don't think bugging out is a bad idea. I do lean towards bugging in, even in urban environments, but everyone has different concerns and environments and I'm certainly in no position to tell people what to do. I just want to help give an honest perspective.

I enjoyed reading "Lights Out" just like the rest of the S&P crowd. It's fiction folks. Banding together to fight MZBs, bartering for a tractor with silver and foraging through the land is a great fantasy. It is just fantasy though. People are unpredictable in the best of times and can get downright dangerous in the worst of times. If I was planning to bug out from a city I would do some really hard thinking and direct my plans towards finding the most godforsaken, desolate land with no people or civilization between me and it. If land is nice there will already be people there and I would expect them to be just as scared and desperate as anyone else. If it's nice public land, your plan is the same as the millions of other folks in the same city. I 'bugged out' years ago and even with everything still functioning it was difficult to carve something out of nothing. Fleeing some event with nothing more than a pickup truck or backpack full of gear and hoping for help from folks just as scared as you are... That's just flat out tough all the way around. I've horse packed many, many miles through the mountains for extended periods of time. So I know what's out there waiting. There's a reason people live in houses and there's a reason you won't see my ass out there.

Like I said, I'm not judging or trying to tell people what to do. I'm just some guy on the internet so I could be totally full of it. It's just been bugging me lately there is so much bull**** out in the world with those new television shows and message boards that I think will do more to get people killed than anything else. Don't take my word for it. Head out into the world and see for yourself. Good luck to you.

Dexters
03-31-2012, 16:25
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1166268

I'll be secure and prepared on my farm.' response for SHTF

Protus
03-31-2012, 17:17
Obviously, the issues and discussion are over your head.

not really Im not the guy who tried to make a point about something i never brought up in my post. AKA your point about crime in rural areas with your links. I posted my opinion on what the pro's and cons of both over a long and short duration event would be!

You were trying to split hairs over one small thing, i called you on it and now your trying to be insulting. Which imho is comical at best.

Dexters
03-31-2012, 20:59
Of course some who advocate urban living for shtf events, will now throw out the issue of "armed gangs" taking on the lone farm . Is this a possibility. Yes. It is also a greater threat in the urban areas due to the "target rich environment" that those areas offer.c

Then your talking about re-defining what rural is.....:whistling:

fwiw there's a ton of rural that isnt just in the plains states....:tongueout:

not really Im not the guy who tried to make a point about something i never brought up in my post. AKA your point about crime in rural areas with your links. I posted my opinion on what the pro's and cons of both over a long and short duration event would be!

You were trying to split hairs over one small thing, i called you on it and now your trying to be insulting. Which imho is comical at best.

You don't know what you wrote .

You don't know the meaning of the word insult.

You don't know the meaning of the word comical.

You don't know the meaning of the word irony.

I don't need emoticons.

You don't know what emoticons are.

You don't know much.

Protus
04-01-2012, 06:56
You don't know what you wrote .

You don't know the meaning of the word insult.

You don't know the meaning of the word comical.

You don't know the meaning of the word irony.

I don't need emoticons.

You don't know what emoticons are.

You don't know much.

Below is what you posted along with my quote you used

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protus View Post
Longterm events-
rural all the way. You have the means to be semi self reliant in both your food and power production if you chose to. The population density is lower. This means less riots,over crowding and depletion of supplies in the short term. The main issues are for the short term events as i already said and also for the mad max,red dawn,type events. Where the masses of un prepared may wonder out to in search of clean water, food, shelter and supplies. This is when the farmer/landowner will be on the defensive. Of course some who advocate urban living for shtf events, will now throw out the issue of "armed gangs" taking on the lone farm . Is this a possibility. Yes. It is also a greater threat in the urban areas due to the "target rich environment" that those areas offer. Will a gang travel 30 miles to raid farmer joe's crops or loot and pillage the local walmart and surrounding surburban homes 1st?! If proper networking,training etc is planned, you can defend your farm, but like most things in life. There is always a bigger fish out there......and as the farmer/landowner/survivalist your gonna have to pick your battles....as will those trying to take what you have.

my 2 cents....FWIW..ymmv...etc
You might want to research a few things.

Rural - where is it? If you are living in the plain states you might find it.

Farms - where are they - again the plain states - there are smaller ones outside that area but they are not far away from cities.



Maybe you should have read the whole post instead of picking out one or two sentences to try and advocate your point.Maybe i should re-quote myself where i advocate urban living for short term events....but that wouldn't play well with your agenda would it.
Again,since you ,missed it, my post was about the pros and cons of each and how event length comes into play.
Im sorry it doesn't fall into your "no where is safe..stay in the cities " point of view.
By the way ,thanks for the laugh's, i get a kick out of people like you with their veiled insults trying to flex their mighty internet muscles :rofl:

Dexters
04-01-2012, 08:38
Below is what you posted along with my quote you used



Is that all you got?

You're a mall ninja.

Protus
04-01-2012, 09:02
Is that all you got?

You're a mall ninja.

keep on man,, your killing me really.

engineer151515
04-01-2012, 09:15
We have had GT member who survived the Argentina economic collapse. Here's a thread (references another board) with the story from a Sarajevo War Survivor.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1377810&highlight=shtf+trade+matches

Real survival is not romantic or idealistic. It is brutal, hard and unfair.

They have excellent advise on what barters well in SHTF and the dangers involved.



I've been on farms and ranches all over the lower 48, Canada and Old Mexico.......

Yours was a very informed and thought out post. Many thanks for the insight.

blueyedmule
04-02-2012, 01:58
Sliding over to the side-topic, I find it interesting that the survivor of Sarajevo and the fellow in Argentina have somewhat different conclusions about what worked best. Then again, the two "events" were different in many respects--culturally as well as in other ways. FerFAL's experience was that people who were in the boonies on farms were eventually preyed upon--by the government/police as well as BG groups. Since they were more isolated they didn't fare well.

I'm interested in other comparisons between Bosnia's war and Argentina's economic collapse--not for a peacock match but simply to compare and contrast. Both views are valid options. I'm of a mind that I will go with whichever I think will work. I do not want to become married to any one option or scenario, otherwise I may not be ready to jump or stay as the need arises.

I'll throw out thoughts as they arise, as I'm reading through the thread over on survivalistboards.com.

blueyedmule
04-02-2012, 02:02
On my apartment door now i have steel door for security reason, but only to keep me trough first short period of chaos, then i am moving out to connect with bigger group of armed people (family and friends) in the country (i hope)

Well in my case migration did not happen because it happen very fast, other army just closed city in ring and that s it, if you ask me where was that army and how we did not seen them coming, the answer is simple, that army was an ally of army of my side and people, and one day we woke up and figured they are enemy now and they are closing all ways out. Politics . It is true, one more side of civil war.

But i heard from others parts of country, and my frends who stayed in villages in the other parts in state, that they have much better situations,countryside had land,corn,wheat, fruit trees, farms etc they had enough food, it was bad, but much better than in city.

I know one thing if we had some way out from the town, we would use it, we did not have it.

It seems even Selco who lived in town during his ordeal would prefer to ride out the next one, if there is a next one for him, out in the country with his people.

blueyedmule
04-02-2012, 02:50
About suburbs, hmm we do not have that here, but i know what are you talking about, to be honest, house in suburbs, probably wooden house, i don t know i would probably try to recognize signs, take my family and go to countryside before everything. Or if you alone, make it look robed and devastated, dig in and pray.
I think suburbs is worst option.

I just watched a youtube of Sarajevo. I'm reminded that folks mostly were in brick homes or concrete apartment buildings. This reinforces my thoughts on my own stick-built home--there's no way I can survive any extended firefights, not without hardening the home in some drastic fashion. In short, it's not defensible by many folks' standards. This sticks in my mind when thinking about staying in place.

Protus
04-02-2012, 06:01
Sliding over to the side-topic, I find it interesting that the survivor of Sarajevo and the fellow in Argentina have somewhat different conclusions about what worked best. Then again, the two "events" were different in many respects--culturally as well as in other ways. FerFAL's experience was that people who were in the boonies on farms were eventually preyed upon--by the government/police as well as BG groups. Since they were more isolated they didn't fare well.

I'm interested in other comparisons between Bosnia's war and Argentina's economic collapse--not for a peacock match but simply to compare and contrast. Both views are valid options. I'm of a mind that I will go with whichever I think will work. I do not want to become married to any one option or scenario, otherwise I may not be ready to jump or stay as the need arises.

I'll throw out thoughts as they arise, as I'm reading through the thread over on survivalistboards.com.


You have to keep in mind that one was an economic crash the other a shooting war..Also IMHO its very hard to compare events to what " may happen here". The demographics,size, population density,that nations past history all are variables that will come into play. It's good to war game it though so you can look at what could go down, and mentally have a clue as to what may happen. But its all a roll of the dice.

There is no safe place if the event is that bad, both urban/rural have their pro's and con's. Whatever your plan is it is up to you to decide if it's worth staying, re-locating etc. Fernado for example stayed in B.A , if events were as bad as what he says they were, i would have left asap. I would not want my family to deal with the issues and have their safety jeopardized. For whatever reason, he stayed.
Hell i'm looking to relocate now, due to increases in crime etc, for all i know next week my AO will be swallowed up in race riots if the media has their way....

Dexters
04-02-2012, 08:47
I'm interested in other comparisons between Bosnia's war and Argentina's economic collapse--not for a peacock match but simply to compare and contrast.

Yes, you do need to have some idea of an event you are preparing for. Too many here go directly to the 'Mad Max' world or 'The Little house on the Prairie' solution to problems.

The Army has a saying: amitures talk about strategy; the knowledgeable talk about logistics.

Bosnia is a small place with outside interests that provided material for the war. The underlying conficts were suppressed since WWII. People banded together based upon ethnic/religious associations. None of this is present in the USA.

Economic, problems are most likely in the USA. But, they are years off. Look at Europe. In the 70s it had the same problems we have now. They instituted VAT and pushed the problem off for 30s years until now. It will be a slow decline and most will not see it happening. They will become slowly poorer and if they do not have a job or money saved they will be living in and like the London areas that had the riots recently.

So, what Ferfal describes for the rural areas would happen in the USA. Again, there really are few areas that are the 'Rural Heaven' people talk about. See my previous posts.

engineer151515
04-02-2012, 08:55
Y

Economic, problems are most likely in the USA. But, they are years off. Look at Europe. In the 70s it had the same problems we have now. They instituted VAT and pushed the problem off for 30s years until now. It will be a slow decline and most will not see it happening. They will become slowly poorer and if they do not have a job or money saved they will be living in and like the London areas that had the riots recently.


I'm not so sure the decline will be slow.

In my world, catastrophic failures accelerate exponentially.

Dexters
04-02-2012, 09:06
I'm not so sure the decline will be slow.

In my world, catastrophic failures accelerate exponentially.

Look at history for guidelines. As I said the USA's situation is similar to Europe. I placed the USA as being 30 or so behind where Europe is now.

What do you see as the historical parallel for the USA's situation. What do you see happening.

Lowdown3
04-02-2012, 09:57
"Logistics"?

What long term sustainable logistics does a city have? Is asphalt renewable? Crack cocaine renewable?

The problem is people and the solution has always and will always come down to a math problem. Less people around= less potential for problems.

Yes yes I know, if someone breaks into your house in the country they will take their time raping your gerbil for weeks, etc. and no one will come in and "rescue me!" like of course they will in the city where EVERYONE always wants to get along and help each other out.

It comes down to mindset. One mindset says

"Plan on taking care of yourself in everything you can. If you have others you can trust around to survive with great, if not, try not to be dependent on others for every single thing that goes into your mouth. While few can be totally self sufficient, every single thing I can do for myself and take care of myself gives me great INDEPENDENCE, saves me MONEY and makes me less dependent on the system." This is the mindset that puts SAFETY AND SECURITY first and seeks comfort and convenience after that.

The other mindset says

"oh gee, I want to be around others I don't really know and who's trustworthiness is dubious at best cause I really can't fathom getting out and making do on my own. Maybe the gubmint or someone will come in and "rescue me" (hear that song playing every time these threads come up)." This is the mindset that seeks comfort and convenience FIRST at the expense of true safety and security.

People can argue whatever they want, it comes down to which mindset they have above.

kirgi08
04-02-2012, 10:17
Yes, you do need to have some idea of an event you are preparing for. Too many here go directly to the 'Mad Max' world or 'The Little house on the Prairie' solution to problems.

Disagree,sorta,prepping needs balance and goals.

The Army has a saying: amateurs talk about strategy; the knowledgeable talk about logistics.

Logistically were sound,the variables are expansive.

Bosnia is a small place with outside interests that provided material for the war. The underlying conflicts were suppressed since WWII. People banded together based upon ethnic/religious associations. None of this is present in the USA.

Not yet,but with the increases in the pressures being applied by minority religions,the tension will mount.

Economic, problems are most likely in the USA. But, they are years off.Disagree Look at Europe. In the 70s it had the same problems we have now. They instituted VAT and pushed the problem off for 30s years until now.Yep,and now it's coming home ta roost in their economies.Mrs Thatcher said it best. It will be a slow decline and most will not see it happening. They will become slowly poorer and if they do not have a job or money saved they will be living in and like the London areas that had the riots recently.

Disagree here,with the economic blowups in Greece/Spain/Portugal,it'll be sooner than later.



So, what Ferfal describes for the rural areas would happen in the USA. Again, there really are few areas that are the 'Rural Heaven' people talk about. See my previous posts

There are "rural",then there are "RURAL".We have real rural as a BOL.Water/farming/shelter and a very good ta excellent chance ta be missed in most "look" for folk scenarios.

Dexter,a most excellent post,thanks.'08.

No sarcasm at all. :cool:

Dexters
04-02-2012, 10:18
"Logistics"?

What long term sustainable logistics does a city have? Is asphalt renewable? Crack cocaine renewable?

==============


People can argue whatever they want, it comes down to which mindset they have above.

First, you have to have a mind.

Dexters
04-02-2012, 10:35
Dexter,a most excellent post,thanks.'08.

No sarcasm at all. :cool:

No, problem. We can look at the same info and can draw different conclusions - respectfully.

In many discussions, people omit two things - history and time.

Instituting a VAT in the USA will put off the national economic issues for awhile as it did in Europe. But, it will hurt marginally financial people. It will also, prevent many from saving money.

For most people in the USA, the most likely, non nature not criminal, SHTF event is economic. It has been happening - jobs going overseas, stagnant wages, fewer benefits. That will continue.

With the national debt and local debt we will get higher taxes (vat) keeping people poorer and sending more jobs overseas. England is a good model for what we are looking at - once an empire, now?

Over the coming years services in the cities and rural areas will be cut back as budgets are cut.

We can debate which would be a better place to live - city or rural but the net differences are small. A little discussed area is suburbia - neither city or rural. It probably will have the best of both worlds. You can have a job, and some space away from the concentration of city and rural problems.

"Disagree here,with the economic blowups in Greece/Spain/Portugal,it'll be sooner than later."

That probably would cause a second recession in Europe, the USA and China. It won't be the tipping point.

kirgi08
04-02-2012, 12:06
No, problem. We can look at the same info and can draw different conclusions - respectfully.

:cool:

In many discussions, people omit two things - history and time.

The mirroring and the fact folk seem ta enjoy their ignorance and blissful state.

Instituting a VAT in the USA will put off the national economic issues for awhile as it did in Europe. But, it will hurt marginally financial people. It will also, prevent many from saving money.

For most people in the USA, the most likely, non nature not criminal, SHTF event is economic. It has been happening - jobs going overseas, stagnant wages, fewer benefits. That will continue.

Granted,However Obama has poked and prodded the above.NAFTA was a MAJOR mistake and the 1 just let it ride.

With the national debt and local debt we will get higher taxes (vat) keeping people poorer and sending more jobs overseas. England is a good model for what we are looking at - once an empire, now?

I disagree with the VAT ever hitting here.The nation won't stand for it,however the left will "propose" it.I'd love ta be a fly on the wall in that meeting.

Over the coming years services in the cities and rural areas will be cut back as budgets are cut.

The "welfare" folk will feel it far more than the farmers will.The self sufficient will welcome the relief,until those that are,are required ta help those that ain't.

We can debate which would be a better place to live - city or rural but the net differences are small. A little discussed area is suburbia - neither city or rural. It probably will have the best of both worlds. You can have a job, and some space away from the concentration of city and rural problems.

Straight RURAL for us,right now we live 3/4 rural and can sustain ourselves for 5+ years on storage.Put a producing garden in and the #s soar.Water by 3 ways and electric/gas ta help with life."Suburbia" has it's own "quirks"/"ego",the "jones" factor pops readily ta mind.My Wife works at home,we home school and my transport ta work is job provided.BTW,the folk that provide a "ride" if needed,are those that have a "bunk" in my home.

"Disagree here,with the economic blowups in Greece/Spain/Portugal,it'll be sooner than later."

This will depend on the IMF and other fell good "agencies" and their willingness ta throw good money after bad.The US "bailout" of GM/DODGE.I posted repeatedly,let the burn.

That probably would cause a second recession in Europe, the USA and China. It won't be the tipping point.

I hate ta disagree,the way the one world economy is currently bein run,no market is really free of another.The barter/black market economy is excluded..'08.

Dexters
04-02-2012, 12:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexters View Post
No, problem. We can look at the same info and can draw different conclusions - respectfully.



In many discussions, people omit two things - history and time.

The mirroring and the fact folk seem ta enjoy their ignorance and blissful state.

+1

Instituting a VAT in the USA will put off the national economic issues for awhile as it did in Europe. But, it will hurt marginally financial people. It will also, prevent many from saving money.

For most people in the USA, the most likely, non nature not criminal, SHTF event is economic. It has been happening - jobs going overseas, stagnant wages, fewer benefits. That will continue.

Granted,However Obama has poked and prodded the above.NAFTA was a MAJOR mistake and the 1 just let it ride.

With the national debt and local debt we will get higher taxes (vat) keeping people poorer and sending more jobs overseas. England is a good model for what we are looking at - once an empire, now?

I disagree with the VAT ever hitting here.The nation won't stand for it,however the left will "propose" it.I'd love ta be a fly on the wall in that meeting.

Just as Greece was forced to increase taxes, so with the USA. It will be a liberal president/congress that does it and sells it to the people. It will start small 5% and grow steadily. I guess in 15 years away.

Over the coming years services in the cities and rural areas will be cut back as budgets are cut.

The "welfare" folk will feel it far more than the farmers will.The self sufficient will welcome the relief,until those that are,are required ta help those that ain't.

+1

We can debate which would be a better place to live - city or rural but the net differences are small. A little discussed area is suburbia - neither city or rural. It probably will have the best of both worlds. You can have a job, and some space away from the concentration of city and rural problems.

Straight RURAL for us,right now we live 3/4 rural and can sustain ourselves for 5+ years on storage.Put a producing garden in and the #s soar.Water by 3 ways and electric/gas ta help with life."Suburbia" has it's own "quirks"/"ego",the "jones" factor pops readily ta mind.My Wife works at home,we home school and my transport ta work is job provided.BTW,the folk that provide a "ride" if needed,are those that have a "bunk" in my home.

You are in a unique position.

"Disagree here,with the economic blowups in Greece/Spain/Portugal,it'll be sooner than later."

This will depend on the IMF and other fell good "agencies" and their willingness ta throw good money after bad.The US "bailout" of GM/DODGE.I posted repeatedly,let the burn.

Bailouts are part of the problem and will continue if they have friends in DC

That probably would cause a second recession in Europe, the USA and China. It won't be the tipping point.



I hate ta disagree,the way the one world economy is currently bein run,no market is really free of another.The barter/black market economy is excluded..'08.

Lowdown3
04-02-2012, 12:54
First, you have to have a mind.

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

Dexters
04-02-2012, 13:14
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

And this is serious?

"Logistics"?

What long term sustainable logistics does a city have? Is asphalt renewable? Crack cocaine renewable?



Look, I understand people like you. You want to belong. You want to contribute. You want to be liked. You are the type that watch American Idol and actually vote. Why? Because: You want to belong. You want to contribute. You want to be liked.

This isn't American Idol. You actually have to be able to follow what has been written in the thread and then you have to clearly and concisely write something of value. Your post lacked all of that.

If you disagree with someone has to say all you need to do is say what you disagree with, why and your perspective. Again, your post lacked all of that.

kirgi08
04-02-2012, 13:18
Let it go Dexter.'08.

Protus
04-02-2012, 14:59
And this is serious?



Look, I understand people like you. You want to belong. You want to contribute. You want to be liked. You are the type that watch American Idol and actually vote. Why? Because: You want to belong. You want to contribute. You want to be liked.

This isn't American Idol. You actually have to be able to follow what has been written in the thread and then you have to clearly and concisely write something of value. Your post lacked all of that.

If you disagree with someone has to say all you need to do is say what you disagree with, why and your perspective. Again, your post lacked all of that.

:rofl:

oh yeah.. your good at that with your one liner comebacks....

MoneyMaker
04-03-2012, 17:13
corn fed country girls

UneasyRider
04-03-2012, 20:53
Farmers have friends. We have kin. We have barns full of stuff. Why would a farmer want someone coming from the city to "bug out" with them? You were never there during a planting or a harvest. And you can't carry much diesel fuel on your back or in your trunk. Never took much interest before. Now you want in? The premise of this thread seems askew.

Unless you have a lot of people your going to need more people to pull security and all you have to do is give them room and board. If I wanted to have strong barter items I would go with a couple with LMG's and a ton of 556.

It all depends on the situation though, you don't need people but an older couple with very little family would be just the opposite.

I like the gold response very much because farmers buy on credit or with cash and it's likely that neither will be taken for goods in a real bad SHTF that could be coming our way.