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kma1005
02-25-2012, 13:09
I'm writing a paper about legalizing concealed carry on college campuses for my argument based research class. I've been searching for several hours for logical and intellectual arguments for legalization that don't use boat loads of statistics to make their point. I was hoping someone could point me in a good direction: a good article you've read, a good book, website or whatever else.

Already used SCCC but any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

John Biltz
02-25-2012, 13:14
The biggest reason for me seems to me the assumption that college students are stupider than their non-college peers. Look at any statement any university puts out on the subject and it comes down to they don't trust their students. But someone the same age is trusted with carry by the state.

kma1005
02-25-2012, 13:16
Believe me I've got mountains of reasons and logic and all that, just need the "scholarly" sources to back it up in my paper.

LoadToadBoss
02-25-2012, 16:34
Believe me I've got mountains of reasons and logic and all that, just need the "scholarly" sources to back it up in my paper.
You probably won't find many "scholarly" peer-reviewed studies regarding campus carry because only two states (Utah and Colorado) allow CCW on campus. The best you can hope for are studies that provide statistical data that could strongly suggest that undergraduate college student with concealed handgun permits are either more or less likely to miss use a firearm or commit a violent felony crime.

Another approach to take (if the concern of administrators is the propensity for undergraduate students to be irresponsible) is to argue for allowing graduate and post-graduate student to conceal carry on campus. Those individuals would more than likely be older, mature, career-oriented individuals and thus less likely to make immature, rash and dangerous misjudgments.

Since this is a argument-based research class, an important point to begin with is understanding the arguments raise against campus concealed carry and then presenting factual evidence that either refute those arguments or demonstrate their baselessness.

NC Bullseye
02-25-2012, 20:45
Concealed carry on college campuses is an extremely bad idea. ABC news showed it to be a solid fact that a concealed carrier will be not only the first one shot but shot several times before they can draw from a holster they have never worn before that day with a gun they have never practiced before except for an airsoft replica and concealing under a tee shirt that is down to their knees.

It has to be true since it was on their news show.

kma1005
02-25-2012, 21:47
Concealed carry on college campuses is an extremely bad idea. ABC news showed it to be a solid fact that a concealed carrier will be not only the first one shot but shot several times before they can draw from a holster they have never worn before that day with a gun they have never practiced before except for an airsoft replica and concealing under a tee shirt that is down to their knees.

It has to be true since it was on their news show.

youtube video link ?

Well I guess they ruined my entire argument, I think I'll just pretend I didn't read this, ignorance is bliss after all.:whistling:

bulletandgrunt
02-25-2012, 22:07
Do some seaches for Mississippi's new extended carry option. It allows carry on college campuses. Now the stickler is the college. If you're a student, then when you became a student you agreed to their policy of no weapons. I know over on AR15.com there are quite a few threads on it.

RussP
02-25-2012, 22:12
youtube video link ?

Well I guess they ruined my entire argument, I think I'll just pretend I didn't read this, ignorance is bliss after all.:whistling:He was being sarcastic, I hope. The report used staged scenarios that were unrealistic.

RussP
02-25-2012, 22:16
Students for Concealed Carry (http://concealedcampus.org/) and Campus Carry (http://www.campuscarry.com/) have resource lists.

CookeMonster
02-26-2012, 02:17
Do some seaches for Mississippi's new extended carry option. It allows carry on college campuses. Now the stickler is the college. If you're a student, then when you became a student you agreed to their policy of no weapons. I know over on AR15.com there are quite a few threads on it.
Here in California, licensed carry on campus is not illegal, but in the school rules it states "No weapons allowed on campus without the permission of school president." So I requested permission from the Pres, and she informed me that many of the local PD routinely carry on campus, and that if I got her a copy of my LTC and driver's license (photo ID), it was my choice. It can't hurt to ask.

Colt452zigzag28
02-26-2012, 02:50
youtube video link ?

Well I guess they ruined my entire argument, I think I'll just pretend I didn't read this, ignorance is bliss after all.:whistling:


Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One - YouTube

I never have done this but it is something to think about.

Backpacks on campus are as normal as pants on students. What if someone was carrying concealed on campus. In all honesty I could have kept my glock, loaded in my backpack and no one would have ever known. Most of my friends kept shotguns in their cars/trucks and I can see where the debate comes in with this video.

I believe that there needs to be more extensive training for CCW holders where you can get the type of intense training that the news story talks about rather than just the basic CCW course.

SolidGun
02-26-2012, 03:56
Concealed carry on college campuses is an extremely bad idea. ABC news showed it to be a solid fact that a concealed carrier will be not only the first one shot but shot several times before they can draw from a holster they have never worn before that day with a gun they have never practiced before except for an airsoft replica and concealing under a tee shirt that is down to their knees.

It has to be true since it was on their news show.

:rofl:

This was my exact impression from the biased broadcast. But then at the same time I have seen people that could not load and shoot their guns in CCW courses passing the class.

HalfHazzard
02-26-2012, 07:37
That ABC News hit piece was exactly what they made it to be.

The underlying message... YOU are not capable of protecting YOU, only the government is.

In the words of a famous DEA Agent, "I'm the only one professional enough to carry a Glock 40."

EAJuggalo
02-27-2012, 09:04
You can also bring up Appalachian Law School. How much worse could that have been without the permit holders.

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/01/13/lang.htm

Bruce M
02-27-2012, 10:40
While it is commendable to take a stand in this debate, I would be more than a bit concerned of potential repercussions or increased scrutiny from an unfriendly campus administration. But I may just be paranoid.

Oramac
02-27-2012, 12:46
While it is commendable to take a stand in this debate, I would be more than a bit concerned of potential repercussions or increased scrutiny from an unfriendly campus administration. But I may just be paranoid.

Our world is made by people who take a stand and damn what other people think. I wholeheartedly commend him for taking a stand like this. Had I been more involved in CCW while I was in college, I'd do the same thing.

For the OP: You won't likely find any "scholarly" writings on campus carry, as the vast majority of "scholars" are libtards. Also, I encourage you to look at this assignment (and the class as a whole) as a discussion class rather than an argumentative class. This will help keep you calm, which helps get your point across better.

glocked1
02-27-2012, 14:33
Yeah... that ABC news report was a joke.

slickt0mmy
02-27-2012, 14:46
While it is commendable to take a stand in this debate, I would be more than a bit concerned of potential repercussions or increased scrutiny from an unfriendly campus administration. But I may just be paranoid.

I am currently attending art school, getting my degree in Advertising and Graphic Design. One of my projects was to do a five part magazine ad series for a non-profit organization of my choice. Well, just to ruffle some feathers (this place is filled with liberals), I chose Ohioans for Concealed Carry.

It went over surprisingly well. My professor is an old US Navy man and was completely cool with the idea. I even had a couple students approach me, wanting to know more information about this "concealed carry thing". It was very well received.

kma1005
03-01-2012, 20:43
Our world is made by people who take a stand and damn what other people think. I wholeheartedly commend him for taking a stand like this. Had I been more involved in CCW while I was in college, I'd do the same thing.

For the OP: You won't likely find any "scholarly" writings on campus carry, as the vast majority of "scholars" are libtards. Also, I encourage you to look at this assignment (and the class as a whole) as a discussion class rather than an argumentative class. This will help keep you calm, which helps get your point across better.

Most professors that teach the class I'm in allow almost constant debates, my professor limits us quite a bit to what we talk about and how long we debate anything. I love the way she teaches but would have preferred more debating on topics that I actually care about.

But thanks for the help folks, got a few ideas from everyone here and it is greatly appreciated. Any more thoughts are welcome.

mike from philly
03-02-2012, 06:15
GeorgiaCarry.Org has a report that examines what happens to crime rates after gun law changes. It has several college examples there:

http://georgiacarry.com/research/GCO-Guns_Good_Bans_Bad.pdf

X72
03-02-2012, 09:02
I am a guy but I purse carry, so I read the books aimed at women. Kathy Jackson, Gila Hayes, and Paxton Quigley are some of the authors that I read. One of these authors has a website called "cornered cat" or something like that. I am sure the others have websites too.

Consider first making the argument, why firearms for citizens in the first place before going to why concealed carry. Have you come across Gary Kleck? I haven't read his research, but what I got from reading something about him is that firearms used in self-defense are rarely discharge. The act of displaying a firearm in self-defense in most cases causes the criminal to break off his/her attack. You cannot rely on this and must train and be willing to use the firearm, but still, that argument rarely is mentioned.

Consider that the why a firearm question is probably a stronger case for a woman than a man. If you aim your arguments at women, you will make a stronger case. Here, Kathy Jackson is quite interesting because she goes at the socialization of women that makes them more likely to be victimized because of social pressure to be nice and polite, instead of listening to their instinctive sense of danger and behaving in a "non-rude" way.

Another avenue you can pursue is the situational awareness angle. Even if you are against firearms, how can you be against increased situational awareness? Carrying a deadly weapon forces most people to be more situationally aware. I see people walking around staring or talking into their phones. For a criminal, that person is easier to attack because they are oblivious to their surroundings.

Hope this helps and more power to you for making these arguments in a university environment. Remember to bring up that police are there to solve crimes, not really to prevent them. This is no criticism of police. Bring up that being armed is empowering to women because it is a force equalizer for someone who is less physically strong in a fight.

SCmasterblaster
03-02-2012, 10:31
I OC a fully-loaded G17 once in a while on the Dartmouth Clooege campus in Hanover, NH. I do not grow a need to shoot anyone other than a mugger.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-02-2012, 15:32
These will be the objections (remember, this is not me talking my position) but what will be said. Get it!!

1. The young mind is too immature to control impulses. As seen in bad behavior, drunkeness, rowdy crap, car accidents. True the carrier will be over 21 but the 21 year olds still have an immature set of frontal lobes.

2. Possessing guns in the dorms are a peculiar set of risks due to theft, substance abuse, male posturing, romantically driven slug fests, frat boys, out of control athletes and the like. Expecting the school to store your gun is problematic.

3. If there is a critical incident, the chance of the untrained shooting someone may be high. Research shows that many folks don't the risk of killing an innocent even to save a great life. Cost / benefit analyses don't matter in this kind of emotional argument.

4. This brings up the issue of training. The gun on campus is couched usually in terms of fighting the rampage as compared to mugger -be - gone. The latter is usually accomplished by deterrence (Kleck, etc.). The former is an intensive critical incident and folks think that if you are going to put yourself forward as a sheepdog - you should have gone to sheepdog school. Damn - we don't need no stinking training because the 2nd Amend, blah, blah - will not fly as an argument for many.

5. Yes, there are well trained and older students - like vets, reserve Recon marines, cops, trained civilians who would meet this objection but you will run into the risk of the 21 dorm drone with no training and seen as immature. Does your school have such a population of matures students or is it Animal House U. ?

Thus, can you counter these? That's how I would take you on, being in the business and having heard the arguments (like when Gov. Perry, the great of Texas, helped sink the campus carry bill by inaction - bah).

Glenn E. Meyer
03-02-2012, 15:58
I would also like to add (edit function seized up on me), that one should look up the L'ecole Polytechnique massacre in Monteal - goggle works fine.

Note how the shooter asked the males to be separated. Ask any antigun male opponents to carry if they would comply and leave the women to die or try the suicide charge.

While charges have worked, in many places the hero died - like at VT.

Tell the guys they can cry at the candle light vigil later.

Warp
03-02-2012, 16:23
I'm writing a paper about legalizing concealed carry on college campuses for my argument based research class. I've been searching for several hours for logical and intellectual arguments for legalization that don't use boat loads of statistics to make their point. I was hoping someone could point me in a good direction: a good article you've read, a good book, website or whatever else.

Already used SCCC but any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I can tell you my experience, which is that it isn't a problem. I grew up in Indiana. I attended college there full time for 5 years. I carried to class every single day for 3 of those years.

In Indiana: Licenses are shall issue with no training requirement and a minimum age of 18...colleges are legal for carry...bars are legal for carry...as far as I could tell carrying to a bar while drinking is legal.

And it isn't a problem.

Oh, and it isn't a matter of not having enough licensed carriers as Indiana ranks about #3 nationally for % of the population licensed to carry. Last numbers I saw (several years ago) it was over 6% of the adult population being licensed.

RichM
03-02-2012, 20:33
That ABC News hit piece was exactly what they made it to be.


Something I didn't see mentioned here is the fact that the 'pseudo bad guy' KNEW who the CCW person was and where in the room they were sitting.

We should be so lucky in 'real life' to know where the threat is!

Rich

dyobvk
03-02-2012, 20:43
Due to all the robberies and rapes going on at Georgia Tech. Its was approved to allow students to CCW on campus if they had a liscense. May want to do a search and read up on what was done to pass that law. I mean it was pass quickly. As soon as it was passed, I have not see or read about any robberies or rapes on or in the area of Georgia Tech

Warp
03-02-2012, 21:21
Due to all the robberies and rapes going on at Georgia Tech. Its was approved to allow students to CCW on campus if they had a liscense. May want to do a search and read up on what was done to pass that law. I mean it was pass quickly. As soon as it was passed, I have not see or read about any robberies or rapes on or in the area of Georgia Tech

I have not heard of this.

Got a link?


-----
http://www.georgiapacking.org/law.php

Weapons on school property and functions: It is unlawful for a person to carry ANY type of weapon onto any real property (real estate... land or buildings) owned by or leased to any public or private elementary school, secondary school, or school board and used for elementary or secondary education, any public or private technical school, vocational school, college, university, or institution of post secondary education.

dyobvk
03-02-2012, 21:47
Here ya go:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/georgia-tech-student-beaten-1251370.html

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/persistent-crime-at-georgia-1214081.html


I thought it was passed but looks like as of Jan 12 its still in legislation:

https://www.carryutah.com/ccw-articles/legislation-to-be-introduced-in-georgia-to-allow-ccw-permit-holders-to-carry-on-campus

Warp
03-02-2012, 21:51
I was going to say...pretty sure I would know if that had passed.