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Brad55102
02-25-2012, 22:44
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

NMG26
02-25-2012, 22:47
I carry five.

It has been enough so far.

I would like to have a 45 auto and think the G36 is a good choice.




:)

ballr4lyf
02-25-2012, 22:47
No, but with 2 extra magazines you'll have 18. :cool:

mrsurfboard
02-25-2012, 22:51
It's actually 6+1, so its 7.

BIGBOY61
02-25-2012, 22:57
Don't be caught off guard by how many rounds you carry for a 45ACP.

Remember that a Commander size 1911 only has a seven round mag with one in the pipe.

With a G36 you have 6 in the mag and one in the pipe. I carry an extra mag with a one round extension.

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc429/spkuse/GLOCK%20PICS/G36-1.jpg

I do not feel under-ammo'd by my G36. It is thin, light, and that big fat flying ash tray of a round is the perfect man stopper- if needed.

Schaffer
02-25-2012, 22:59
Or just get a 30 and throw a 21 mag in your pocket.

BIGBOY61
02-25-2012, 23:05
I had a G30 and sold it to get my Ed Brown 45ACP.

But before I sold it, it was and outstanding shooter. Accurate and loads of fun to shoot. Just a fat brick to carry. Yeah, I carried the G21 mag in it and it was very sufficient.

I then fired the G36 and it was just as accurate as my former G30. Much thinner and resembles my 1911 grip, after my Cold Bore Custom modification!

tuf8seconds
02-25-2012, 23:13
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

In most situations it will be 6 more than enough...If the person that you have a problem with has any sense what-so-ever, all you have to do is show it to him and you'll be all by yourself......
However, if after you show it to him, you are "NOT" all by yourself, you may have to use it because he ain't got a lick of sense....Now, you know the rest of the story.....

TxGlock9
02-25-2012, 23:22
It's all in the user preference. For me? I would prefer to have more in a magazine. Not that I would need it.

LASTRESORT20
02-25-2012, 23:32
It's all in the user preference. For me? I would prefer to have more in a magazine. Not that I would need it.

I have to agree....Perfectly said!

GRT45
02-26-2012, 00:03
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

Brad, plan on carrying a spare mag for backup with a CCW in case of a mag failure regardless of which pistol you decide to get. Read this cautionary tale for just one example: Making a case for a spare mag... My story (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1397209)

For the G36 45ACP, if I were you I'd carry at least one spare mag with a +1 extension and +10% mag spring (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/529419/wolff-magazine-spring-glock-36-6-round-magazines-10-pct-extra-power) (7 rds total) and load 6+1 in the pistol, or 7+1 if you can manage to conceal it well.

My CCW is a G30SF 45ACP loaded 10+1 and I don't leave the house without a 13-rd spare mag. From my training, I tend to view defensive pistol firepower in terms of the number of three-shot bursts that can be delivered accurately without a reload. Two bursts is really pushing it for my personal comfort level.

Regarding capacity, Mas Ayoob's column in the May/June 2011 issue of American Handgunner magazine (available online) is a remarkable story of a shootout between a 20-yr veteran LEO and a BG where both had .45ACP pistols. The gunfight occurred at extreme close range (6 feet) and neither man had benefit of cover. The LEO had a G21 with 14 rnds and the BG had a Sig P220 with 9 rnds. Both guns were empty at the end of the fight and the BG ran out of bullets first. The LEO was hit once in the leg and the BG was hit seven times and survived. It's an important lesson about having the right ammo and adequate round capacity.

See The Ayoob Files - Dueling .45s: The Steve Lang Incident (http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/) (Page 32)

The LEO switched from 185gr CorBon +P JHP to 230gr Speer Gold Dot JHP immediately after the gunfight.

Stories like this encourage me to keep toting a spare 13-rd mag on my person for CCW, in the event of a rare mag failure, even though it's inconvenient at times. It's also a very sobering reminder that proficiency under the stress of real combat is a whole different world than shooting at range targets that don't shoot back.

MikeG36
02-26-2012, 02:09
I love my G36. It's thin, easy to conceal and very accurate. It holds one less round than my 1911 Commander which isn't that big a deal because I carry one and sometimes two spare mags. You can go with a [thick] higher capacity but then you lose the advantage of the G36, it's thinness.

barth
02-26-2012, 03:44
It's all in the user preference. For me? I would prefer to have more in a magazine. Not that I would need it.

+1
I've got two 5 shot J-frames and a 5+1 Kahr MK40 as part of
my carry rotation. I most always carry reloads. But with the
low capacity guns it seems even more important.

My P220/45 and P239/357 are both 7+1.
Lot's of practice, and being extremely proficiency and accurate with these guns
raises my confidence dramatically!
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo36/63/fd/e57d50c109a3__1329951359000.jpg

TxGlock9
02-26-2012, 04:12
Great grouping Barth.. Have you seen my range report and pistol report threads?

barth
02-26-2012, 04:45
Great grouping Barth.. Have you seen my range report and pistol report threads?

Haven't seen those threads, but I'm guessing you're an excellent shot.
That last pic was cheating as I was using a 5.47 inch match barrel Sig Sauer P220/45 .
My Glock work isn't so impressive.
But I'm working on it.
G27 W/Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo36/f8/97/f32bb8edff48__1329324119000.jpg

2740dmx
02-26-2012, 05:07
I recently switched back to semiauto carry, after having been on a revolver binge for awhile.

I never felt "undergunned" while carrying a 6 round snub and a speedloader in my front pocket.
Of course, the "speed" loader wasn't so speedy under stress, as my training showed me...

It all depends on your personal lifestyle and where you live...
Here in sleepy Vermont, and me being all clean and sober, going to bed at 10pm and such.....low-risk lifestyle!

I did not switch back to G26 because of the capacity...
but for the weight, shape, better sights, faster reloading, and more comfortable round (9mm vs .357mag)

With one spare magazine in your front pocket...you are good to go!

Some great advice in this thread!

Glock22-007
02-26-2012, 05:19
i like to have at least 12 rounds with me @ all times. more is always better.

glockfanbob
02-26-2012, 05:35
I'm not comfortable with only 6 but thats personal preference. Too many reports of multiple attackers and drugged up guys taking a multitude of shots to stop.

The 36 is a great gun though. It's been on my list to buy eventually as I like the thinness of it. As noted above, you can carry a spare mag.

Bruce M
02-26-2012, 06:05
Statistically six will be a few more than you need/fire. Of course statistics involve averaging.

DANGELO
02-26-2012, 06:14
I grew up with a friends with LEO parents. Local courthouse cops had gone from wheelguns to G19's. LOVED and were VERY proficient with their wheelguns. From what I recollect, first qual quarter after the transition training, those still holding on to the .38special 6 shots out-shot most (most...) of those with the 15 round G19.

Why: Apparently the G19 crowd went with more of a spray & pray tripple-tap approach. The revolver boys were fast, but consistent and disciplined.

Sometime more isn't necessary better...

I treat my G36 and my Commander-sized 1911's the same as I treat my JFrames & SP101...Two hits, C.O.M., pivot left, (weak side) then pivot right. Within 'short-barrel' distances, two well-placed .38 +p's or .45's are only marginally less deadly than three ++P 9mm Gold Dot's out of my G19.

Good To Great:(Book...) Disciplined PEOPLE ,Disciplined THOUGHT, Disciplined ACTIONS.

Practice Practice Practice.

Steve50
02-26-2012, 07:22
Sometimes it's plenty

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 07:37
This is going to hurt some .45-lovers' feelings, but you are no better off than a 9mm unless using a full-length barrel. From a short barrel (4" or less), you get the same performance but with far less capacity and far more recoil than 9mm. A small step up in size (.25" taller and .4" longer) to a G19 and you get more than twice the capacity and the same terminal effectiveness.


9mm vs .45 from ~4” barrels:

9mm 124gr Golden Saber (4" barrel,Average .684" expansion and 12.6" penetration):

124grain +P Remington Golden Saber (http://www.brassfetcher.com/124%20grain%20+P%20Remington%20Golden%20Saber.html)



9mm 147gr Golden saber (4" barrel,Average .62" expansion, >14.5" penetration)

147grRemington Golden Saber JHP (http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html)






.45acp "Short Barrel" test,including GD, GD +P, and Hydrashock (3.8" barrel, average .68"expansion and 12.3" penetration)

Various.45ACP JHPs (test 2) (http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20.45ACP%20JHPs%20(test%202).html)



.45ac 230gr Gold Dot "Short Barrel"(3.8" barrel, average .62" expansion, 14.3" penetration):

230grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel (http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grSGDSB.html)



.45acp 165gr Powerball +P (3.8" barrel,average expansion .68", average penetration 11.8").

165gr+P Cor-Bon Pow'r Ball (http://www.brassfetcher.com/.45ACP%20165gr%20+P%20Cor-Bon%20Pow'r%20Ball.html)



.45acp 230gr XTP +P (3.8" barrel, averageexpansion .665", average penetration 12.6")

230grain +P Hornady XTP (short barrel gun) (http://www.brassfetcher.com/230%20grain%20+P%20Hornady%20XTP%20(short%20barrel%20gun).html)



Speer 200gr GD +P (3.8" barrel, averageexpansion .665", average penetration 12.4").



None of these loads are moving nearly fast enough to impart any permanent damage from temporary tissuecavitation. So, given that wound volume is thus all a matter of how wide the bullet expands and howdeep it goes, they really are all on a quite similar playingfield when it comes to wound volume, with quality, modern ammo.

IMO, the only reason to get a G36 is if you already have a .45 and don't want another caliber. Otherwise, you can get a 9mm and *gasp* and do everything better, except perhaps earn the man-status that comes with every box of .45 :upeyes: .

Z71bill
02-26-2012, 07:44
It depends --

If I am going to walk 100 yards down the street to get the mail - I carry 6+1 of .380 ACP in my P-3AT - I feel like it is enough.

Many times I need to be places where I must be 100% sure I stay concealed - in these situations I carry 6+1 in a PM9 - I feel like it is enough.

Most other "normal" times I carry 12+1 in an M&P9c - I feel like it is enough.

A few times - like traveling at night - stopping at a crummy rest stop - I have 12+1 in my M&P9c use the 6+1 in the PM9 as a bug - I feel like it is enough.

:dunno:

I understand some wanting a spare mag - but I never bother with it - if I really think I need more rounds then the gun holds - I just carry a bigger capacity gun.

NOT SAYING IT IS WRONG to carry your gun + 2 spare mags, a flashlight and a knife - I just feel like a DB if I try and lug all that stuff around - so 99.5% of the time - one gun even a 6+1 is good enough.

22highcaps
02-26-2012, 07:51
In the state I live in I would be happy if I could carry the 6rds of 380 that my PT738 holds.

That said, if I lived in a free state where I could carry, I would choose something with at least 10 rounds such as the XD45C or G30.

LuckyG
02-26-2012, 08:48
No disrespect intended - but another question with no answer. If one carried for 25 years and never had to use it, an empty gun would be "enough".

Everybody has to select their own comfort level - nobody else can determine that for you. My comfort level is a Sig P226 .40, two spare 13 round mags, an S&W M60 on my left side and a Speedstrip in my pocket.

tinman517
02-26-2012, 09:00
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

Six rounds is plenty. The large majority of us will never have a need to draw our guns, I trust.

Having said that, practice is always paramount. Practice mag drills.

IDPA is an excellent platform to develop good gun handling skills and confidence in your handguns.

Z71bill
02-26-2012, 09:19
My comfort level is a Sig P226 .40, two spare 13 round mags, an S&W M60 on my left side and a Speed strip in my pocket.

Northeast Afghanistan? :tongueout:

Just joking with you --

I agree with - do what makes you feel comfortable -

dawgchamp
02-26-2012, 09:24
This is going to hurt some .45-lovers' feelings, but you are no better off than a 9mm...None of these loads are moving nearly fast enough to impart any permanent damage...

I'm curious about the medium into what these shots were made.

Was "clothing" or "heavy clothing" taken into account?

mingaa
02-26-2012, 09:33
Due to lifestyle I'm most comfortable deep carrying. I IWB a Kahr single stack. With one in the pipe and a second (extended) mag somewhere on my person I have 15 rounds walking around. I've never even had to draw. But I'm comfortable with that. I live in the city and multiple BG encounters are a potential reality...

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 09:36
This is going to hurt some .45-lovers' feelings, but you are no better off than a 9mm unless using a full-length barrel. From a short barrel (4" or less), you get the same performance but with far less capacity and far more recoil than 9mm. A small step up in size (.25" taller and .4" longer) to a G19 and you get more than twice the capacity and the same terminal effectiveness.


9mm vs .45 from ~4 barrels:

9mm 124gr Golden Saber (4" barrel,Average .684" expansion and 12.6" penetration):

Unless you're comparing the same bullet in both calibers, then this comparison means nothing. If a .45 acp hollow point does it's job, it's expanding to about .75-.85", sometimes more. 9mm is about in the .55-.65" range. Plus, if the .45 acp doesn't expand for some reason, it's still punching a way bigger hole than a 9mm. Nice try, though...
124grain +P Remington Golden Saber (http://www.brassfetcher.com/124%20grain%20+P%20Remington%20Golden%20Saber.html)



9mm 147gr Golden saber (4" barrel,Average .62" expansion, >14.5" penetration)

147grRemington Golden Saber JHP (http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html)






.45acp "Short Barrel" test,including GD, GD +P, and Hydrashock (3.8" barrel, average .68"expansion and 12.3" penetration)

Various.45ACP JHPs (test 2) (http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%20.45ACP%20JHPs%20(test%202).html)



.45ac 230gr Gold Dot "Short Barrel"(3.8" barrel, average .62" expansion, 14.3" penetration):

230grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel (http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grSGDSB.html)



.45acp 165gr Powerball +P (3.8" barrel,average expansion .68", average penetration 11.8").

165gr+P Cor-Bon Pow'r Ball (http://www.brassfetcher.com/.45ACP%20165gr%20+P%20Cor-Bon%20Pow'r%20Ball.html)



.45acp 230gr XTP +P (3.8" barrel, averageexpansion .665", average penetration 12.6")

230grain +P Hornady XTP (short barrel gun) (http://www.brassfetcher.com/230%20grain%20+P%20Hornady%20XTP%20(short%20barrel%20gun).html)



Speer 200gr GD +P (3.8" barrel, averageexpansion .665", average penetration 12.4").



None of these loads are moving nearly fast enough to impart any permanent damage from temporary tissuecavitation. So, given that wound volume is thus all a matter of how wide the bullet expands and howdeep it goes, they really are all on a quite similar playingfield when it comes to wound volume, with quality, modern ammo.

IMO, the only reason to get a G36 is if you already have a .45 and don't want another caliber. Otherwise, you can get a 9mm and *gasp* and do everything better, except perhaps earn the man-status that comes with every box of .45 :upeyes: .

Unless you're comparing the same bullet in both calibers, then this comparison means nothing.

If a .45 acp hollow point does it's job, it's expanding to about .75-.85", sometimes more. 9mm is about in the .55-.65" range. Plus, if the .45 acp doesn't expand for some reason, it's still punching a way bigger hole than a 9mm.

Nice try, though...

mingaa
02-26-2012, 09:37
Six rounds is plenty. The large majority of us will never have a need to draw our guns, I trust.

Having said that, practice is always paramount. Practice mag drills.

IDPA is an excellent platform to develop good gun handling skills and confidence in your handguns.

I'm totally hooked on IDPA for beyond the range practice and have a goal of shooting 3 gun in 2012!

Dobie
02-26-2012, 09:43
Nobody ever complained about having too much ammo in a gun fight.

dawgchamp
02-26-2012, 09:54
Plus, if the .45 acp doesn't expand for some reason, it's still punching a way bigger hole than a 9mm.

Nice try, though...

This is the reason I question the medium used for the testing. Even ball ammo in a .45 is going to punch a .45" hole. ;)

Jim S.
02-26-2012, 10:43
Everyone has their comfort level with the amount of ammunition they carry.
Is 7 rounds enough?
It is until it is not.
Is 14 rounds enough?
It is until it is not enough.
Where do you draw the line on how much ammo to carry?
A handgun is not the weapon of choice in a gun fight but it is convienient to carry and as far as I know we are not legally allowed to carry an M-4 with a 30 round magazine.
I think that for most situations the six + one is fine and I believe in carrying an extra magazine more for the malfunction possibilities than for the extra ammo.
Unless you are putting yourself in an area or situation that raises the probability of a confrontation then the smaller amount should be fine.
If I put myself in a bad situation then I will consider more ammunition as a need and I will be carrying several guns.
I certainly try not to do this though.
Bottom line to me is that you will be ok with 6+1 and an extra mag under normal day to day circumstances.
Just for validation...
A 7+1 1911 saved my life on three seperate occasions.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 12:56
Unless you're comparing the same bullet in both calibers, then this comparison means nothing.
Take the time to under the links provided and you'll see they mean quite a bit.

Most of those .45 bullets, when shot from a 5" 1911, expanded to ~.75". The reduced velocity of the 3.8" barrel resulted in the performance specs shown. Whether or not they have the same bullet name doesn't mean jack--they have to be tweaked just as much between calibers as a brand new one would. I am just showing the difference between .45acp from a 5" barrel and .45acp from a 3.8" barrel, and how similar the performance of the latter is to 9mm.

But, all the information you guys seek was conveniently pasted in six different links in my last post :upeyes: . Brassfetcher is one of the most consistent and prolific independent sources of ballistics testing on the web.

And I did say "modern, quality" ammo for a reason. high-end stuff of recent development is not plagued by inconsistent expansion like what was available or designed 20 or 30 years ago.


In any case, why don't you guys show me some expansion data of rounds shot from a short-barreled .45? Do you have data to support your implication that "oh, it's just cheap ammo" hypothesis behind these figures, or are you just choosing to believe that the .45, from any gun, is the magic manstopper so many want it to be?

BTW I think it's funny that a 4"-barreled .45 earns the excuse "short barrel," but a 4"-barreled 9mm is considered "standard" :P . You never see ballistics testing from 5"-barreled 9mms. We see how much of a difference in makes in .45s, so I'd bet 9mm could benefit significant from it.

Heh, look again how close they still are in performance when shot from a 5" barrel :) . And the 9mm load still has about half the recoil and provides a big jump in capacity...
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-6.html


I used to carry a 44mag because I liked the extra power, but went back to an auto for the durability (yes, under rough use, a good auto (like a Glock) will last longer without parts replacement than a revolver). I seriously considered the larger calibers, but consistently found that the only caliber really worth it over 9mm, is 10mm. But, I didn't want to get into a whole new caliber, and I wasn't 100% sure I'd like the 10mm, so I just went back to 9mm. But, miles of evidence suggest 9mm really gives up little in the way of terminal performance (compared to .40 and .45), while giving back a lot in reduced cost, reduced recoil, and increased capacity.

But, I don't want to turn this into a caliber war. Again, to answer his original question, with the short barrel he would be losing the only real advantage of .45 (somewhat larger wound volumes with similar loads). So, if he is worried about capacity, he might as well get a 9mm and get essentially identical terminal performance, but with significantly greater capacity (and less recoil).

fastbolt
02-26-2012, 14:00
6 rounds enough?
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

Dunno how to answer that ... for you.

How trained, skilled, experienced and mentally prepared (mindset) are you to use any handgun in an unexpected, dynamic, rapidly changing & chaotic situation where you would at imminent risk of seriously bodily injury or death?

It's still just a handgun, you know.

Me?

I carried a 6-shot service revolver and a Colt Commander which used 7-rd magazines for a number of years as a younger cop.

After several years of carrying one or another hi-cap issued pistol, as well as some pistols which used 8-10rd mags for off-duty ... I finished my career carrying an issued .45 pistol with 7+1 capacity, and, more often than not, one or another 5-shot .38 Spl off-duty. Kind of went full circle, so to speak.

I did a lot of range work with whatever guns I carried, though, regardless of capacity.

Sure, I still have some off-duty/retirement weapons in 9, .40 & .45 that have mags that hold 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 rounds ... and one that has 12-rd mags ... but 5, 6, 7 or 8 round capacity still fulfills my anticipated needs.

Just depends.

Suit yourself.

I'd think it might be prudent not to mistake higher capacity with being better prepared ... (or skilled) ... though.

Some years ago I was wondering just how effective my short barreled (3.25") might be with some of the better quality ammunition that was available to me.

So, I loaned my CS45 to a hosted gel event for them to use.

I only kept the results for the previous SXT/T-Series generation of standard and +P pressure 230gr loads.

The results from the limited shots?
230gr - 802fps/13"/.76"
230gr +P - 839fps/12"/.77"

Feel free to guess which is which ...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/CS45T-seriestopview.jpg

Maybe the newest generation of T-series loads would do better. Dunno. Haven't tried them in the little .45 for a gel event, yet.

I quit worrying about it as long as I was using one of the better quality, modern hollowpoint designs, though.

I also have some Remington 230gr Golden Sabre and some Speer 230gr GDHP available for my .45's, regardless of barrel length, too.

unit1069
02-26-2012, 14:05
6 rounds enough?

Under most civilian self-defense scenarios, yes.

janice6
02-26-2012, 14:09
I feel I have enough with 6 rounds of .357 Magnum and a speed strip.

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 14:33
Lindenwood, while I agree to an extent with some of what you say, I disagree with some. The shortest I would go in a .45 acp barrel is 3.6". The G36 is 3.78" and benefits from octagonal rifling, not hexagonal like most barrels. The velocity loss isn't as bad as most short barrel .45s. I read a test in which the Speer Gold Dot 200gr +p was chronographed out of a G36 at 1017 fps. That round is rated at 1080 fps out of a 5" barrel. That's only about a 6% loss in velocity in a 1.22" shorter barrel.

But I stand my ground that unless the barrels are the same length and the same round is being tested (as well as heaviest weight for caliber, or middle weight for caliber, etc...), then the test is not valid.

And I have already read Brassfetcher previous your posting. It's a good website, but it doesn't test enough different brands to be a valuable site.

Also, penetration is irrelevant when comparing hollow points across brand and caliber. They are ALL designed to penetrate 12-15" regardless of caliber or bullet weight. Only the wimpy calibers are not capable of sufficient penetration. Everyone's seen the chart showing all the calibers penetration in gelatin, like it's supposed to be some revelation that all calibers are for the most part equal. It's the wound channel and tissue destruction in the first 10" that is the most important. And let's not forget that a hollow point has a larger diameter as it's opening. They often open too far and the diameter actually lessens as it comes to a halt. So the diameter as it's going through that first, say, 5-10" of flesh is what is important. But of course there is no way to really test this besides ultra slo-mo video footage of gelatin being shot, and inspecting the wound channel after the fact.

It's obvious that .357 sig, .40 S&W and .45 acp have an advantage over 9mm. It's not much, but it's there. Even a snub nose .357 magnum would be a better choice, ballistics-wise.

But stats aside, here is a simple question: If you had to be shot in the chest with either a 124 gr. +P (or 147 gr., take your choice) hollow point or a 230 gr. +P hollow point, both out of a 4" barrel, which would you choose? And no, you cannot say, "Either one would do the same damage, so it doesn't matter." If you HAD to choose one or the other, assuming you hope to have a chance to survive, which would you choose?

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 15:31
The G36 is 3.78" and benefits from octagonal rifling, not hexagonal like most barrels. The velocity loss isn't as bad as most short barrel .45s. I read a test in which the Speer Gold Dot 200gr +p was chronographed out of a G36 at 1017 fps. That round is rated at 1080 fps out of a 5" barrel. That's only about a 6% loss in velocity in a 1.22" shorter barrel.
The Brassfetcher tests were with a Glock30, so the performance shown is what you get. No need to for conjecture.


But I stand my ground that unless the barrels are the same length and the same round is being tested (as well as heaviest weight for caliber, or middle weight for caliber, etc...), then the test is not valid.
What do you mean? I made a very simple and obvious conclusion: the same rounds designed for a 5" barrel, but shot out of a <4" barrel, will show a notable reduction in performance. The performance of all the rounds shown was on par with average modern 9mm ammo.


It's the wound channel and tissue destruction in the first 10" that is the most important.
And let's not forget that a hollow point has a larger diameter as it's opening.
I did say it is the total permanent wound cavity that is important. The hypothetical argument that some bullets can briefly "over-expand" isn't unsound. However, not only would it apply to any caliber but it is, as you say, unverifiable. Further, the expansion of the bullet is not a gradual process as it travels, but is extremely rapid.


It's obvious that .357 sig, .40 S&W and .45 acp have an advantage over 9mm. It's not much, but it's there. Even a snub nose .357 magnum would be a better choice, ballistics-wise.

But stats aside, here is a simple question: If you had to be shot in the chest with either a 124 gr. +P (or 147 gr., take your choice) hollow point or a 230 gr. +P hollow point, both out of a 4" barrel, which would you choose? And no, you cannot say, "Either one would do the same damage, so it doesn't matter." If you HAD to choose one or the other, assuming you hope to have a chance to survive, which would you choose?

How about this. Either way, if the shot is well-placed I'm going to die. If it isn't, I likely won't (90% of gunshot wounds are survived). However, I'd MUCH MUCH rather give him a 7-shot .45 (G36) than a 16-shot 9mm (g19) in the same-sized gun.


But again, all I'd ask of you is to provide evidence that .45acp from a G30 or G36 DOES in fact exhibit the terminal performance matching 5" 1911s. So far, the ONLY evidence I've seen is that performance almost mirrors 9mm from a similar-sized gun.

REALLY, though, my entire point was that there is no need to limit himself to a 6+1 gun (G36) when he can get a similar-sized G19 and have more than twice the capacity, 50% less recoil and, based on the available evidence, no loss of terminal performance.

GRT45
02-26-2012, 15:32
The G36 is 3.78" and benefits from octagonal rifling, not hexagonal like most barrels. The velocity loss isn't as bad as most short barrel .45s. I read a test in which the Speer Gold Dot 200gr +p was chronographed out of a G36 at 1017 fps. That round is rated at 1080 fps out of a 5" barrel. That's only about a 6% loss in velocity in a 1.22" shorter barrel.

What you reported in the comment above holds true in other tests. The octagonal rifling effect appears to be real.

Shown below is some chrono evidence comparing the performance of Glock .45ACP barrels (with octagonal rifling) against performance of longer barrels with conventional rifling for a 230gr 45ACP reload.

In the case of Zombie Steve's reload, the velocity loss was only 3.4% (-29 fps) for the 3.78" Glock barrel versus a 5" barrel of a 1911.

Entirely possible.

Here are my results all using Win brass, 6.6 grains WSF, CCI 300, 230 grain XTP loaded to 1.210" - 10 shots each.

G30 (3.78" bbl): 827 fps, 15sd
Sig P220 (4.4" bbl): 824fps, 14sd
SA TRP (5" bbl): 856, 17sd
G21 (4.6" bbl): 876, 13sd

So in my case, the shorter barrel G30 basically did the same job as the longer barreled Sig, and the G21 outperformed the longer barreled 1911. Accuracy was a different issue... 1911 was tightest, Sig a close second and the Glocks performing close to the same.

Is the extreme spread from 827 to 876 feet per second really significant? Probably not, but I think there's something to the rifling...

mah77
02-26-2012, 16:02
Of course more rounds are better. But, we're not cops, we're CCW holders. Our role isn't that of a cowboy, it's to defend ourself and family. That being said, 6 rounds of the mighty .45acp is plenty in a self defense situation. Those that feel they need an exorbitant amount of ammo, are mall ninjas, with no perception of reality. In my opinion, if 6+1 isn't enough to diffuse a life threatening situation, then you have no reason sticking around to reload. In most states, any target over 21' away, will be considered murder (unjustified homicide). The G36 is a great carry weapon, and plenty accurate at 21'.

9mm +p+
02-26-2012, 16:05
Before last years rash of racially motivated gang beatings I would have said yes. Now I say no, I carry a 26 or a 19 now instaed of a 5 shot wheelgun that I used to carry. I back that up with 2 G17 mags. It's better to have and not need in my mind. And despite the 9mm is a wimp crowd the 9mm with the proper load in the proper place will end any fight just as fast and any 357/40/45,period. That's not conjecture or opinion it's documented history, period.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 16:07
Those that feel they need an exorbitant amount of ammo, are mall ninjas, with no perception of reality.
Really?

So anyone who carries more than a 6+1 gun is a mall ninja?








And you said this on a Glock forum? :rofl:

Alphonso
02-26-2012, 16:10
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

All the people (probably about a zillion or so) who carry Smith & Wesson J Frames seem to think so...

mah77
02-26-2012, 16:19
Really?

So anyone who carries more than a 6+1 gun is a mall ninja?

And you said this on a Glock forum? :rofl:

In case you can't read, I said "an exorbitant amount".
In other words, those that think they need additional magazines in a CCW situation.

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 16:19
Lindenwood, you talk in circles. I know the tests were out of a glock 3.78" barrel. That is why I read them. And I never claimed .45 ballistics out of a 4" barrel equal those out of a 5" barrel. Only an idiot would claim that. A short-barrel .45 will suffer in ballistics performance. So will a short-barrel 9mm.

I see you avoided answering my question. I knew you would. Because only a fool would choose to be shot in the chest with a 230 gr. +P rather than a 124 gr. +P.

And I believe it's 80% of people shot with handguns survive, not 90%. And I would gander that that is mostly due to shot placement and insufficient caliber. If someone is shot center of mass with a 9mm or better caliber, I would bet my life their chance of survival is less than 80%.

The .45 ACP has the edge in ballistics over the 9mm. IT JUST DOES. SORRY.

You can talk in circles all you like, and compare the optimal 9mm results against subpar .45 acp results, I simply don't care. Have at 'er, boss.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 16:33
You can talk in circles all you like, and compare the optimal 9mm results against subpar .45 acp results, I simply don't care. Have at 'er, boss.

Then post up some "par" ballistics gel results from a short-barreled .45. That's all you would need to do to prove me wrong.

Otherwise, my point still stands that the reduced performance from the short barrel almost completely removes the ONLY, edge that the .45 had over the 9mm, which was still only a marginal increase in wound volume relative to a 200lb man.

And btw, those were far from "optimal." They are just the data that was available from the same tester so we can know they used the same protocols. The "optimal" results I did post were of the 147gr HST vs the 230gr +P HST, and even then they were still very similar to the 230gr +P HST--.78" vs .86".

Finally, the "wound you rather" game is so sophomoric. I wouldn't let you shoot me with a .22, but that doesn't make it a god SD weapon. Hell, I wouldn't let you slap me, but that doesn't mean I'm going to slap-box the guy who's trying to kill me.

But, once again, my point wasn't to say that "9mm is more powerful than .45." It was, however, to say that there is practically no ballistic advantage to a short-barreled .45 over a similar-sized 9mm, yet you still make big sacrifices in capacity and recoil. In light of all this evidence, the only reason one would still choose this type of .45 would be either personal bias (in which case any intellectual discussion is pointless because you are going to believe whatever you want to believe, regardless of how much evidence is in front of you) because the .45 makes you feel manlier.

mah77
02-26-2012, 16:35
Here we go with the whole 9mm vs .45 argument again. Anyone who thinks the ballistics of the 9mm Luger can beat, or even match that of a the .45 ACP, are wrong. Let me know, and I'll be happy to provide you with the factual proof. Im not gonna get involvwd in the whole "which is better for self defense?" arguement, cuz I wouldn't even want I be on the receiving end of .22

Spiffums
02-26-2012, 16:48
If I ever need a gun, I may not need more than 5 or 6 rounds......but what if the one time I do need my gun I need more then 5 or 6? As with all things, it's your skin make your choice and take your chances.

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 16:51
Blabbity, blah blah blah.

Speer 45 acp 230gr Gold Dot Short Barrel ballistic gel test - YouTube

230 gr. Speer Gold dot short barrel out of a 3" standard rifled 1911 officer's model:
– 15.24" penetration
– .690" expansion
And that is out of a 3" barrel with standard rifling and through multiple layers of denim. The 3.78" Glock barrel with octagonal polygonal rifling would probably do better.

But Brassfetcher tested some marginal rounds out of a G30 (Pow'r Ball is laughable), so .45 acp short barrel ballistics must be the same as 9mm short barrel.

It's always the same with 9mm people. "9mm with modern bullets have the same ballistics as .40 and .45."

Oh yeah? So which would you rather be shot with in the chest with, a 9mm or .45? Answer from 9mm people: "Ummm ... well ... ummm ... if you look at XYZ ballistics chart it shows..."

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 16:51
In case you can't read, I said "an exorbitant amount".
In other words, those that think they need additional magazines in a CCW situation.

Still a silly argument. I never leave me house thinking "I'm definitely going to need this reload today." I never lock my doors thinking "I'm definitely going to need this lock today." I never buckle my seatbelt because I think "I'm definitely going to need this today." I do all those things because I acknowledge the possible that I could need them, and because the cost of implementing them is far outweighed by the cost of not having them should I ever need them (i.e. the death of myself or a loved one).

Seriously, say you are just getting into the car with your significant other, and four thugs make a pass at you. Your lady has already sat down, and you don't have time to help her back out of the car to run. You step away from the car and open fire with your 7-shot gun, and manage to take out two of them before you run out. You can hope the other two are "normal" people who would run away. But what if they aren't? What if they all grew up together, and the two remaining ones instantly decide they aren't leaving without taking you out first? What if they are all doped up and not thinking clearly enough to run? What are you going to do? You can't run away and leave your girl at their mercy. Unless you are the ninja, I would not expect you to try to take them on unarmed. Even in front of whatever store you were at, nobody is going to be able to help you in time to save you and your girl. At that point, anyone in that situation would be thinking "damn, I wish I would have brought that extra mag sitting on my dresser."

Nobody has ever wished for a smaller gun or less capacity in a gunfight. I am not saying you should go out of your way to carry an AR and a Bazooka everywhere you go. I'm not even saying YOU should carry a certain number of rounds with you. I'm just saying, you actually having the audacity to insult anyone who might think more than a handful of rounds could have some use is extremely close-minded.

In any case, does that mean someone who carries a G17 is a mall ninja because they have 18 rounds when 7 is "as many as anyone needs?" I now carry a G26 with an extra 12rd mag... am I a mall ninja? When I used to carry a 6-shot .44mag with a speedloader in my vest pocket, was I a mall ninja then?

kamonjj
02-26-2012, 16:53
I feel confident carrying 7 rounds of 9mm (I carry a pps quite often). I would certainly be happy with 7rds of 45. In fact I'm planning on checking out the XDs when it comes out (single stack 45 acp).

Hell, I'd even carry a small 25 auto over nothing at all. I always feel that something is better than nothing. Just saying, not trying to get into the caliber debate here since I am a firm believer in the 9mm cartridge.

GRT45
02-26-2012, 16:56
..........I said "an exorbitant amount".
In other words, those that think they need additional magazines in a CCW situation.

I think others could benefit from reading a recent thread at GT with an interesting story and recommendation on the topic of a spare mag for CCW:

Making a case for a spare mag... My story (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1397209)

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 17:00
Oh yeah? So which would you rather be shot with in the chest with, a 9mm or .45?

I'd rather be shot with any of these .45s...

.45acp 230gr XTP +P (3.8" barrel, averageexpansion .665", average penetration 12.6")
230grain +P Hornady XTP (short barrel gun) (http://www.brassfetcher.com/230%20grain%20+P%20Hornady%20XTP%20(short%20barrel%20gun).html)


.45ac 230gr Gold Dot "Short Barrel"(3.8" barrel, average .62" expansion, 14.3" penetration):
230grain Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel (http://www.brassfetcher.com/230grSGDSB.html)





Speer 200gr GD +P (3.8" barrel, averageexpansion .665", average penetration 12.4").





Than this 9mm...

9mm 124gr Golden Saber (4" barrel,Average .684" expansion and 12.6" penetration):

124grain +P Remington Golden Saber (http://www.brassfetcher.com/124%20grain%20+P%20Remington%20Golden%20Saber.html)



:rofl::rofl:



*edit*

BTW, not only does the single bit of performance data you provide hardly show an increase in performance over the 9mm data I showed, but given it is a single test from a completely different sources, the data are not as directly comparable. I have already posted the same load tested by Brassfetcher, which was from a G30, no less.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 17:07
I feel confident carrying 7 rounds of 9mm (I carry a pps quite often). I would certainly be happy with 7rds of 45. In fact I'm planning on checking out the XDs when it comes out (single stack 45 acp).

Hell, I'd even carry a small 25 auto over nothing at all. I always feel that something is better than nothing. Just saying, not trying to get into the caliber debate here since I am a firm believer in the 9mm cartridge.

And yes, anything is better than nothing. For a while I carried a 6+1 subcompact 9mm, and never carried a spare. I just think it is extremely close-minded to actually go as far as insulting anyone who would carry more than whatever he carries.

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 17:10
Cool, then you'd have less chance of survival. Good luck.

kamonjj
02-26-2012, 17:11
I wasn't insulting anyone. Just stating my opinion.

bac1023
02-26-2012, 17:13
I have no problem with 6 rounds.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 17:16
Cool, then you'd have less chance of survival. Good luck.
How?

Oh, are you talking about that hidden magic of the .45 that can't actually be measured? Because none of the numbers presented support that statement. :upeyes::rofl:



kamonjj, I was referring to mah77 in regards to being insulting :) . Opinions are good!

mah77
02-26-2012, 17:49
..I was referring to mah77 in regards to being insulting :) . Opinions are good!

If your insulted, that's your problem, not mine. I gave my "opinion".

Me, being a CCW holder, am always aware of my surroundings. I pay attention to every little detail. I typically park away from everyone else. If I hear footsteps behind me, I'm on guard. I park backed into parking spaces, so if I need to get out quick, it's easier. When im in public, i always make sure the side with my firearm is away from others, so i can draw it if needed, and prevent others from taking it. If some idiot is following/chasing me in another vehicle, I'd drive to the nearest PD/SO. If someone comes to my door at night, i dont answer it. I wont even get up to see who it is.

Once I was issued my permit, it changed me. I don't look for a fight, but instead do everything to avoid one. I don't even consider my weapon unless someone presents the "ability, opportunity, and intent". Some may call this paranoid, I call it survival. The weapon is only to protect myself and my family. It's not used to for intimidation. I don't feel like some badass because I have a permit, I feel safe. It's my opinion that carrying "an exorbitant amount of ammo" (exorbitant = excessive) is for mall ninjas. Police carry high capacity weapons because their job is to protect the community. We're permit holders, NOT cowboys, police, or heroes. Pulling a gun is the last option. If someone wants to steal my car, have at it. That's what auto insurance is for. If someone wants my wallet, have it. I don't carry cash and I can cancel my cards before they have a chance to use it.

In your scenario, if I saw people hanging out around my vehicle, I'd wait to go out to it. If I saw people walking towards me as I'm getting in, I'd leave. If someone was approaching before I got in, I'd pick up the pace. Either way, I'm not going to stand and fight. Get the hell outta Dodge and call the police. What do people do when shots are fired? They duck, take cover, run, hide. Use that opportunity to flee the situation.

To the OP, if your properly trained, 6+1 should be enough to either end, or get you out of the situation. If YOU feel it's not enough, then carry a spare magazine or get a higher capacity gun. If you were asking about 6 rounds of .22, that's one thing. A .45 has plenty of stopping power. Even if an aggressor is wearing a vest, it's still gonna knock him down and break some ribs, leaving time for you to get away.

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 18:15
How?

Oh, are you talking about that hidden magic of the .45 that can't actually be measured? Because none of the numbers presented support that statement. :upeyes::rofl:


Yes, the magic numbers of the same penetration as any other major caliber and more expansion. A 230 gr. Gold Dot will expand to a larger diameter than a 124-147 gr. Gold Dot and penetrate about the same (all HPs penetrate to about 12-14"). :tongueout:

Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P 124 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

Sorry, bro. 4" Glock 19. Gold Dot 124 gr. +P. 13.25" penetration. .614" expansion.

My video from previous post. 3" 1911 officer's model. Gold Dot 230 gr. 15.25" penetration. .690" expansion.

Sucks when you compare apples to apples, doesn't it? 3" .45 penetrated deeper and expanded more than a 4" 9mm. So the 9mm had the advantage of a 1" longer barrel and still lost by a factor of about 13% less penetration and 11% less expanded diameter.

You can go away now.

dakrat
02-26-2012, 18:44
No disrespect intended - but another question with no answer. If one carried for 25 years and never had to use it, an empty gun would be "enough".

Everybody has to select their own comfort level - nobody else can determine that for you. My comfort level is a Sig P226 .40, two spare 13 round mags, an S&W M60 on my left side and a Speedstrip in my pocket.

best post of the year!

dawgchamp
02-26-2012, 18:46
You can go away now.

Game...set...match.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 19:21
Sucks when you compare apples to apples, doesn't it? 3" .45 penetrated deeper and expanded more than a 4" 9mm. So the 9mm had the advantage of a 1" longer barrel and still lost by a factor of about 13% less penetration and 11% less expanded diameter.

You can go away now .

Wait. So the numbers are only valid when you get to deliberately pick an inferior load? What about all the ones I've posted that showed significantly better performance than the Gold Dot you posted? Hell, the GD in 9mm hasn't been a top performer for a good decade--there are many better loads. Like I said, just because they share the same name doesn't at all mean it is an "apples to apples" comparison. You are grabbing at straws trying to deliberately avoid the painfully-obvious logic of picking the best load in your caliber.

Game...set...match.
Not hardly.



Mah77, you missed some points.

First, I asked what if you are obligated to protect someone else? Say you run out of ammo, the threat has not been stopped, and a significant other is not in a position to flee. Are you going to just empty your mag and run away and hope they make it?

Second, I asked what if they don't simply flee at the first shots? It does and can happen.

Finally, I don't think you can count on noticing and avoiding every potential threat. That is great that your SA has increased since carrying. I view the world much like you do. However, what if those guys are sitting in a tinted car, a half dozen spaces away? In a partially-full parking lot (I'm talking Walmart at 9pm, not a barren parking garage), they wouldn't stand out at all. If they deliberately wait until you are just getting into your vehicle before moving, they could easily get the drop on you.

If you really think about all these things, you must be realistic enough to know that you don't have as much control over your environment as you might think. There are always unknowns that we can't control, like mentioned above. Hell, isn't that why we all choose to be armed in the first place? It isn't because we are out looking for a fight, but rather because we know they can't all be avoided.

Sonnytoo
02-26-2012, 19:22
It's actually 6+1, so its 7.

Yes...as above. And, I usually carry one extra mag in my Levi watch-pocket. Fits perfectly.
Sonny

1smoothredneck
02-26-2012, 19:47
I had a G36. Liked it. Never a problem. Flawless reliability. I,like you, just could not get over the capacity, but with me it was more an efficiency issue.. The size/weight for the on board capacity just didn't sit well with me. It didn't conceal any better than my G19 or My G23, or as well as my G27, and had less ammo on board than any of them. And, yea, I know it was .45 ammo. And I never felt undergunned for the years I carried a LW officers ACP with same capacity. I just chose glocks with different ammo and capacity ratings and never looked back. I still occasionally carry my LW commander, I just never had the 36 pull at my heart strings and give me warm fuzzies when I holstered up. YMMV.
Be Safe

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 20:09
Wait. So the numbers are only valid when you get to deliberately pick an inferior load? What about all the ones I've posted that showed significantly better performance than the Gold Dot you posted? Hell, the GD in 9mm hasn't been a top performer for a good decade--there are many better loads. Like I said, just because they share the same name doesn't at all mean it is an "apples to apples" comparison. You are grabbing at straws trying to deliberately avoid the painfully-obvious logic of picking the best load in your caliber.


When you compare the same brand hollow point in 9mm and .45, the .45 will win every time. You are right, the Gold Dot is not a top expander. Other brands might expand MORE, to say .85 or .90". Show me any apples to apples test in a controlled medium like ballistics gelatin, and the .45 will win probably 99% of the time.

And of course there is a good possibility that a 9mm or .45 hollow point won't expand at all, in which case the .45 will blow the 9mm out of the water.

You claim that 9mm = .45 and you say I am grasping at straws. Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! :rofl:

Additionally, of the 26 9mm rounds that the FBI tested, they averaged 13.4" of penetration and .59" of expansion. The 24 .45 ACP rounds they tested averaged 13.4" of penetration and .73" of expansion. But by all means, astonish me with your 9mm=.45 wisdom when ballistics testing and first hand accounts by police, military and medical personnel all state the .45 is clearly superior.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 21:02
Why in the world do we have to limit to certain bullets? Who in their right might would not simply choose the best-performing bullet in their caliber? I don't give crap what the name is on the box. I am picking the one that performs best if I am deciding which brand to pick. Do you think anyone would say "I am not going to get a 9mm because the Gold Dot bullets don't perform very well?" No, they are going to find the BEST loads in each caliber, for their chosen barrel length, and go from there. That you place this silly restriction on what you consider an "acceptable" comparison shows your desparation to defend your beloved caliber.

And, as far as your evidence, I've got a few problems:

1) The data I provided showed notably worse performance than yours. Even if I grant that yours carries as much weight as mine, averaging them together results in less expansion than the Golden Saber load I posted.
I think it's funny that you conject that
The 3.78" Glock barrel with octagonal polygonal rifling would probably do better.

,yet my posted results are of exactly this--with significantly worse performance--and you choose to ignore them. This brings me to my next point:
2) All of your results are provided by different individuals. We have no idea how expansion was measured, or how close to protocol they tested. Brassfetcher has performed hundreds of tests, and by using the same tester we have a much greater guarantee that expansion was measured the same for all the different loads. Given my data were all acquired by the same individuals, they were FAR more comparable than the random tests you've cobbled together.

You claim that 9mm = .45
You've provided one piece of mediocre evidence showing otherwise, when we are talking about short-barreled .45s.

In any case, if I had to choose between two guns of practically the same size, but one had twice the capacity and half the recoil while making at best a marginal sacrifice in terminal effectiveness, I'd take that in a heartbeat. Beyond ammo compatibility, the only reason to choose the other is personal some love for the caliber.

tinman517
02-26-2012, 21:05
How on God's green earth did this thread mutate to a caliber discussion.

Someone is going to cry before this is over. :rofl:

Tim151515
02-26-2012, 21:08
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

6 is enough for a wheeler why not a semi(in which the semi also has the advantage for ease of carrying extra ammo and ease of reloads.)

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 21:14
Call me crazy, Lindenwood, but I expect a comparison of hollow point ballistics of two different calibers to be of the same brand. You like to skirt around this issue.

And some people consider the recoil of a .45 to be more agreeable than the sharpness of a 9mm or .40. It's all subjective.

But by all means, hold on to your contention that the 9mm is as good as the .45. You are in the over-whelming minority, so I'll go laugh myself to sleep now.

WinterWizard
02-26-2012, 21:14
Double post. Delete.

Lindenwood
02-26-2012, 21:59
Call me crazy, Lindenwood, but I expect a comparison of hollow point ballistics of two different calibers to be of the same brand. You like to skirt around this issue.
Anyone with half a brain knows that to make an accurate analysis of any two variables, a number of samples must be taken. In this case, that means a number of available ammunition options must be examined to gain an accurate understanding of the general capability of the caliber, not the specific load. Your reluctance to accept anything but your narrowed selection is pseudo-science at best. I provide a half dozen samples, all taken from the same (well-known and reliable) source for consistency. You carefully select two random examples from unknown sources--one of which happens to directly contradict one of my own--then make some incorrect conjecture, and think you are being academic in your presentation?

But, to entertain you, how about this?
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-6.html
147gr Standard-Pressure HST vs 230gr +P HST, both from 5" Barrels. The 9mm reaches .78" and the HST reaches .86". So, the 9mm sacrifices 9% in the way of expansion diameter, but gains 40% in capacity and literally cuts recoil in half. And this isn't even quite one of your "Apples to Apples" comparisons in that the .45 was a +P load.


But by all means, hold on to your contention that the 9mm is as good as the .45. You are in the over-whelming minority, so I'll go laugh myself to sleep now.
It absolutely is, when comparing weapon systems as a whole. Looking at just terminal ballistics, we should all be carrying around .500 Magnums. But when you look at all other factors, any small difference in permanent cavity is more than offset by all the other advantages of a 9mm platform, which brings me back to my point that there is no need for the OP to limit himself to a 6+1 platform if he is concerned about capacity, when there are similar-sized 9mm platforms that offer significantly greater capacity with hardly any sacrifice in terminal ballistics.

BrewerGeorge
02-26-2012, 22:24
Avoiding the caliber war...

I think that 6 rounds per mag is in some ways better than 12, as long as you religiously carry a reload. That way you get the reliability coverage against magazine failures, while only giving up the speed lost to a potential reload that will probably never happen.

So as a complete weapons system, I think that smaller firepower guns have an advantage - they're small themselves and easy to carry, their magazines are smaller and easy to carry, it's easier to conceal a second magazine somewhere else on your person than the fat grip of a double-stack, and you have a backup against magazine failure.

mah77
02-26-2012, 22:31
I hate these 9mm vs .45 discussions. Use what you feel comfortable with. Find the largest caliber that your proficient/comfortable with. Penetrations from gelatin tests, show one side of the variable. A .45 leaves the barrel at a higher velocity and has more kinetic energy upon impact. The majority of self-defense loads aren't designed for maximum penetration. They're designed for maximum kinetic energy, and the wound channel it creates. The .45 self-defense round is meant to dump its energy fast. It's not intended to punch through your target, and hit an unintended target. Both the 9mm and .45 are effective rounds. I have a G36 as well as a G19. I love the G19, but discontinued it as my carry weapon for the smaller and more powerful G36. With me being a thinner framed guy, the G19 printed to much. This may not bother some, but I don't want others to know I'm armed. Do I wish my G36 could hold 10 rounds and still be the same size? Yes! If Glock made a .44 magnum the same size as the G36, I'd get instead. I personally am willing to sacrifice quantity for size. If your not, then don't get it.

ballr4lyf
02-26-2012, 22:52
Call me crazy, Lindenwood, but I expect a comparison of hollow point ballistics of two different calibers to be of the same brand. You like to skirt around this issue.

And some people consider the recoil of a .45 to be more agreeable than the sharpness of a 9mm or .40. It's all subjective.

But by all means, hold on to your contention that the 9mm is as good as the .45. You are in the over-whelming minority, so I'll go laugh myself to sleep now.

This is just getting silly.

When it comes to my life, I have no brand loyalty. I want to know the best performance from any caliber that i will be using. The only reason I need to know who manufactures the ammo is so that I can tell the clerk I want 1-2-3 grain ammo by x-y-z brand. It makes no difference to me otherwise.

The caliber argument has been beaten to death. I've heard of a female meth-head getting shot in the forehead with 230 grain 45 and not only surviving, but continuing to fight back. I've also heard of a bear being stopped by a single shot from a 40 (that incident when that dude released all those wild animals from his farm).

I used to use the caliber argument as a crutch so that I could (subconciously) disregard the importance of shot placement. The Trolley Square active shooter incident rang a bell for me and made me realize that I would rather have more ammo than make a hole maybe .2 inches wider and maybe 2-3 inches deeper. The caliber argument was only valid when your only option was ball ammo.

Also, to address your earlier question about which caliber would you rather get shot with... WHO THE HELL USES THAT FOR AN ARGUMENT?! How about this, since you are so confident that 9mm is so anemic, how about you just let me shoot you once in the chest with a .22 deringer... That's even smaller than the 9mm. That has got to be the dumbest argument I've heard in the caliber wars.

Just to make it clear that I don't only shoot 9mm, I own and love 1911s (plural) in .45. I even carry them fairly regularly (the slim profile lends itself well to concealment). However, I always carry a reload or two with them (and why wouldn't I--the reloads are easy enough to conceal as well).

Bottom line, carry whatever caliber you feel comfortable carrying. Just make sure to choose good ammo to go with it. And carry a reload. If you think your situational awareness is so good that you don't need the extra ammo, you have just admitted to the sin of complacency.

mah77
02-26-2012, 23:53
This is just getting silly.

I used to use the caliber argument as a crutch so that I could (subconciously) disregard the importance of shot placement. The Trolley Square active shooter incident rang a bell for me and made me realize that I would rather have more ammo than make a hole maybe .2 inches wider and maybe 2-3 inches deeper.


Assuming you were directly in front of the guy:
The guy had a shotgun and a .38. Why do you feel you would have needed more than 1 magazine? Especially with shot placement?

Assuming you werent directly in front of the guy:
Were you going to be a hero and run to go gun the guy down, then spend the rest of your life in prison for murder?

Your right, this IS getting silly....

MinnesnowtaWild
02-26-2012, 23:57
WinterWizard-

Of course nobody would choose being shot with a .45 versus a 9mm. The better question to ask (for relevance to this thread) is would you want to be in a gunfight with a guy with only 6 rounds in his mag or a guy with 10 or more of 9mm? We all know shot placement is most important, and I would rather go up against a guy with a snub nose revolver or a Glock 36 than a guy with a G19. Not only the capacity, but the guy with a G19 is going to have quicker follow up shots and lighter recoil than the guy trying to handle his .45 with +P rounds.

9mm +p+
02-27-2012, 00:04
If your insulted, that's your problem, not mine. I gave my "opinion".

A .45 has plenty of stopping power. Even if an aggressor is wearing a vest, it's still gonna knock him down

:rofl::rofl: Here's proof that you're clueless...

fastbolt
02-27-2012, 01:18
Over the years that I've worked as a LE firearms instructor, which includes several years where I volunteered to help teach classes to non-LE folks, I've seen any number of folks come through classes & range sessions. The skillsets, training & experience has run from minimal to some folks who engaged in professional competition.

One thing that's often been interesting to observe is that many folks who started their handgunning experience using & shooting revolvers or 1911's (which includes a pretty fair number of folks who still carry and use such "low capacity" handguns), more often than not seemed to demonstrate better practical accuracy and more confidence in their skills than a lot of the folks who started out learning to shoot with "high capacity" pistols.

So, are 6 rounds enough for you and your perceived needs, skillset and anticipated circumstances? Only you can answer that question for yourself.

I don't make it a practice to denigrate the choices made by other folks, though. That's just an equipment selection. My primary focus is on skillset & mindset with whatever equipment choice they've made, for whatever reasons they've decided are important to them.

After I made my earlier posting in this thread I went down and met some friends at a cigar club. While this club is located in what's generally considered a rather affluent town & area, it straddles a couple of major freeways and has a lot of visitors all day and evening. Great restaurants, shopping, recreation, etc. I've even seen patched members of a couple of large (well-recognized) "MC clubs" flying colors when riding through or stopping off in the town.

While I typically carry one of my assorted J-frames when out & about in this neighboring town, I've also occasionally belted on one of my larger pistols. Just depends. (Clothing preference, weather, anticipated activities & where else I might be going other than that particular town & area, etc.)

Today, however, instead of going with one of my pocketed 5-shot snubs, I decided to go with a "higher capacity" pistol. I belted on my 6-shot (magazine) CS45 and a single spare magazine.

Maybe it was because I'd recently taken it through a couple of range sessions as part of the normal rotation of guns I choose to use when working as an instructor & armorer. After some normal qual work, I'd done a lot of drills involving 1-handed close range hip/point/indexed shooting, 2-handed shooting, moving & shooting, etc. The little .45 exhibited the same fast & lively balance, great accuracy and solid reliability I've come to expect from it over the many years I've owned and used it.

It's 6-round magazines didn't cause me undue concern, even though they hold 1, 2, 3 or 4 less rounds than some of my other 9, .40 & .45 pistols of similar or larger size (up to & including "compact", which in my case includes an original 3.75" 4513TSW which uses its own 6-rd magazines).

Just depends.

I have more concern about the capability of the user (me) than the capacity of the equipment for personal defensive roles. Most days, anyway.

So ... I suppose if I were to offer an answer to the original question of "is 6 rounds enough?", today I decided that it was enough for me, for my perceived needs.

However, there were some days before I retired when I stopped off at the club on the way home while wearing my issued .45, which had higher capacity magazines ... meaning 7-rd magazines. :whistling:

Some folks like to debate caliber. Maybe it matters to them.

Some folks like to debate capacity. Maybe it matters to them.

Still others like to work both considerations into their debates. Seems to matter to them.

Then there are the subgroups who like to debate platform, make, model, finish & whatever gadgets & widgets they feel are of critical importance ... to them, at least.

Different strokes.

WinterWizard
02-27-2012, 04:55
I never said 9mm was anemic. It's not. It's a perfectly acceptable round. And because of it's size, it often affords a larger magazine capacity. But to claim that 9mm ballistics equal .45 acp ballistics is just ridiculous.

I am with fastbolt. My mindset is that I trust in my mental capability and trust in my shooting abilities to either avoid the situation or end it quickly.

And my question of which would you rather be shot with is totally valid. Why? Because people who everyday carry a 9mm won't answer it. Because deep down they know the answer: the overwhelming majority of the time, it would be worse to be shot center of mass with a .45. Some people won't accept the facts (and they are all there), so you have to appeal to them on an instinctual level.

Would you rather be struck in the chest with a full-size axe weighing 10 pounds or a hatchet weighing 5 pounds? The answer is pretty simple, isn't it? When you take the emotional and personal attachment out of the equation, it's really simple to come to logical and reasonable conclusions. Most people can't do that.

And I am not even biased. I have owned a 9mm.

More rounds are better, sure. But what good is that 16 rounds if you leave your gun at home because it prints? And what good is that 16 rounds if you can't get off 3 rounds before you are killed, because the first two you hit your attacker with didn't put him down?

I always giggle at the armchair commandos who think they are going to be in a tactical gunfight with 3-4 bad guys, emptying magazine after magazine. I choose to live in the real world, not a fantasy world. Leave the tactical shootouts for police and military.

ballr4lyf
02-27-2012, 06:12
The reason why we don't answer it is because it's pointless! The reason why we carry is so that we don't have to make a decision like that. Seriously, if somebody was shooting at you would you really care what caliber they were using? Would you feel better if you knew they were shooting 9mm at you?

Unlike you, I didn't "used to" own a .45... I still do. I still shoot it, run drills with it, clean it, and carry it.

FYI, if you live in the real world I'dlike to introduce you to a friend of mine... His name is Murphy, and he lives there too.

MoneyMaker
02-27-2012, 06:16
put this crap in the Furball forum,IT DONT BELONG HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WinterWizard
02-27-2012, 06:17
Unlike you, I didn't "used to" own a .45... I still do.

I own two .45s.

And yes, I would rather be shot in the chest with a 9mm than a .45. Anyone who says otherwise is, well, giving themself less of a chance of survival. Fact.

MoneyMaker
02-27-2012, 06:17
put this crap in the Furball forum,IT DONT BELONG HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ballr4lyf
02-27-2012, 11:26
I own two .45s.

And yes, I would rather be shot in the chest with a 9mm than a .45. Anyone who says otherwise is, well, giving themself less of a chance of survival. Fact.

EDIT: On second thought, did anybody else see how skinny Angelina Jolie looked last night? WTH happened to her?

John Biltz
02-27-2012, 11:40
I choose to live in the real world, not a fantasy world. Leave the tactical shootouts for police and military. The real question is whether the tactical shootouts decide to leave you alone. Admittedly, they probably will. The thing that kills me about these discussions is the certainty that people will speak. There is no certainty, there are probabilities only. Will 6 be enough, probably but not always. That is the truth. I have read plenty accounts where 6 was enough and several where it was not. I carry a G26 mostly with +2 magazine and another in the chamber. Its what I am comfortable with. I am not comfortable with 5 or 6, I want at least 10 rounds. I just don't like the odds with 5 or 6 rounds and a G26 is a compact package that is easy to carry but concealed carry hand guns are all about the compromises, we make our choices and live or die with them.

Glockbuster
02-27-2012, 11:51
.45 is great no doubt, 9 mm with a 124 gr. +P gold dot or a 147 gr. HST is also great. I would not want to get shot COM with either. Both have equal chance of great bodily harm. When other advantages of 9 mm come into play I'll take it over the .45.

ATW525
02-27-2012, 12:08
I used to carry a Glock 36 and it was a great little gun. Is 6+1 enough? If you can make good hits under stress, then IMO it probably is.

LuckyG
02-27-2012, 13:05
AAUGH!!! The Mutant Thread that destroyed Western civilization. AAARGH - let me out of here!!! I can't take it anymore.
:treadmill:.......:snoopy:.....:snoopy:.........:snoopy:

Deaf Smith
02-27-2012, 19:42
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

6 rounds enough?

If your name is Wild Bill Hickok, yea, but for us mere mortals it might not be.

Now I do tend to pack a 5 shot J in the summer, BUT I usually pack a 8 shot P32 as a backup when I do that. And I mucho prefer a Glock subcompact in 9mm/.357 Sig/.40 S&W persuasion (my usual winter carry.)

It's just that sadly I ain't Wild Bill.

Deaf

MinnesnowtaWild
02-28-2012, 01:37
I own two .45s.

And yes, I would rather be shot in the chest with a 9mm than a .45. Anyone who says otherwise is, well, giving themself less of a chance of survival. Fact.

Dude, you're missing the point. Anyone who says they would rather be shot with a .45 ACP needs to be sent back to elementary school. I have never heard anyone say that, anyways. Nobody is that stupid.

Would you rather carry a 10 pound axe around all day on your hip or would you rather carry a small, lightweight fixed blade combat knife? Everyone knows the 10 pound axe is probably more deadly in the right hands, but it's not very practical. I would love to carry a .45 ACP handgun if they could make one as small as modern day 9mm carry guns. The reality though is they don't. You can come close with the Glock 36 with it's 6+1 capacity, but I would MUCH rather carry a similar sized Glock 19 with 15+1 of 9mm hollow points. Or better yet, carry a even smaller Glock 26 and still have 10+1.

If for some reason you got in a firefight with one guy, who is an average shooter, would you rather them have a Glock 36 with one spare magazine or a Glock 19 (or even Glock 26) with one spare magazine? You're not going to be too concerned with the caliber, and you're probably going to hope they run out of ammo sooner than later.

Then you go on to say what good is 16 rounds of 9mm if you leave the gun at home because it's too big and it prints. That's a pretty sad argument dude when you are talking up the .45 ACP. Imagine a 16 round .45 ACP handgun...it would probably be too large to even open carry in a duty holster. Your argument is flawed.

But I realize it's probably pointless to argue with you, since you don't seem to think very logically. Nobody is arguing with you about being shot with a 9mm versus a .45, but you go ahead and keep using that as your main argument.

mah77
02-28-2012, 18:33
My winter carry, and my summer carry. And yes, I feel as safe as I can with only 6+1

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y362/mheideman77/IMG_2391.jpg

Luvdux
02-29-2012, 07:41
I think 7 rounds in a g36 is probably sufficient, a least I hope so cause I bank on that. I find that in my higher capacity 40 cal and 9mm the extra bulk and weight of ammo make carry uncomfortable. But I also find that by round 8 or 9 I start to get unreliable anyway. Maybe this means i need more range time but it is what is true at the time.

On the caliber war side of this discussion... I hear the comparison of the hole being talked about in diameter. Sure .78 and .86 is a 9 percent difference but this is not a fair comparison. We are talking about a hole therefore AREA is what we talk about. The formula is pie R squared. That last part is important because it makes the difference exponential.

9mm diameter .78 Area .47 square inches

45 apc diameter .86. Area. .58square inches

This is a 23 percent difference. I think 23 percent may be a significant figure.
By the way 40 s&w is my favorite caliber so this is not a bash to the 9 just math.

fastbolt
02-29-2012, 13:36
I thought about this thread last night when I was doing some drills while working a range session.

I was focusing most of my attention on a compact .40 I've owned, but neglected, for several years, a 4040PD. It uses a 7-shot magazine.

Unsurprisingly, when I was running it through the various drills I was expending its onboard ammo load sooner than when I was using my M&P 45 for the same drills (with its 10-rd mags).

Then, I took the opportunity to run some rounds through a G36 owned by one of the other instructors (which was used, but "new" to him). Surprise, surprise, the 6-rd mags didn't run as long as the 7-rd 4040PD mags. :faint:

Seriously, though, the G36 reminded me of shooting my CS45, which also has 6+1 capacity. It's just something you take into account if the circumstances and conditions either require you, or make it preferable, to carry a slightly smaller .45 than what you might commonly carry.

Like a slightly higher mag capacity in a similarly sized pistol? Go with a 7, 8, 9 or 10 round gun in 9 or .40 ... and take that into consideration.

It's a just choice made as part of a daily risk assessment, being (hopefully) an informed decision made by each individual.

Oh yeah, the other instructor who just picked up the G36? He usually carries a 1911 with 8+1 capacity (and carries 4 spare mags), but he considers the G36 (and 1 spare mag) to be a fine alternative for those instances when he doesn't necessarily feel like belting on his all-steel 1911 with all those spare mags. (Or his 'hi-cap' USP 45.) It's not like he's exactly a neophyte, either, as he's an experienced cop and a long time "special weapons" member and instructor, too.

Different strokes.

Your choice. Your call. Your responsibility to consider the consequences of everything involved.

ConcealedG23
02-29-2012, 13:52
It all depends.

D

Jameson4all
02-29-2012, 22:49
Well think of it this way, there are 6 rounds in that mag, but since its a single stack you can carry more mags without as much worry of printing. Also as a ccw holder you will have to make judgement calls, if all you have is 6 rounds and there are 4 armed bad guys robbing a bank, well maybe you let that one go? lol

NEOH212
03-01-2012, 03:14
6 rounds enough?

If you put them where they belong, then yes! :wavey:

writwing
03-02-2012, 20:41
For those that need more than 6, what scenarios do you envision? A shoot out with one guy or a gang? I have read a number of posts where the author carries 2 extra 13 round mags. Does anyone really think they will use 42 rounds? Do you realize what the press might do to you if they find out that you were packing so heavy?

mah77
03-02-2012, 21:45
For those that need more than 6, what scenarios do you envision? A shoot out with one guy or a gang? I have read a number of posts where the author carries 2 extra 13 round mags. Does anyone really think they will use 42 rounds? Do you realize what the press might do to you if they find out that you were packing so heavy?

I agree. If someone does want to carry that much ammo, its their choice. Ive seen peoples explanation of extensive amounts of ammo vary across the board. Ranging from mall shootings, to campus shootings, to an entire gang trying to carjack you. These scenerios are crazy. CCW holders arent cowboys, heroes, or law enforcement.

If your in a mall or on a campus where some crazed nut is blasting away, take cover or leave. Unless he's directly in front of you, shooting at you, you have NO legal standing to engage. Lets put a spin on this scenerio. What if you decide to start shooting back when police arrive? In their eyes, theyre going to see 2 people in plain clothes spraying lead. Most likely, your both going to be dead.

As far as a group of individuals trying to carjack you, do you really think youll be able to shoot multiple people dead before one of them has a chance to kill you? Thats in the movies, not real life. Choose your battles wisely. Besides, let em have your vehicle, thats what insurance is for. Always be aware of your surroundings.

This is what aggravates me about the freaking internet. Everyone "claims" to be a CCW holder, and claims to know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that "heard". In reality, you dont know if the person posting a thread or comment is 12 years old. Im not claiming to be perfect, but Ill admit when Im wrong.

The smartest weapon is your brain. A handgun is THE LAST resort. If you arent smart enough to assess whether to draw a weapon, you dont deserve a CCW, and you'll give the rest of the holders a bad rap.

A gun in a CCW scenerio is to protect YOU and your immediate family. Its not to protect your buddy or other civilians. The majority of states have it in their law that if your over 7 yards away, its no longer "self-defense", its MURDER.

Be smart, be aware of your surroundings, and keep your booger finger of the boom switch until your ready to shoot.

BrewerGeorge
03-02-2012, 23:15
... The majority of states have it in their law that if your over 7 yards away, its no longer "self-defense", its MURDER.
....
I was kinda following you until this. Where'd you get that idea?

Lampshade
03-02-2012, 23:39
If your in a mall or on a campus where some crazed nut is blasting away, take cover or leave. Unless he's directly in front of you, shooting at you, you have NO legal standing to engage.

That is false. Many states have laws allowing for the use of lethal force in defense of others.

I don't know where you get the idea that someone needs to be "directly in front of you" to be a threat.



A gun in a CCW scenerio is to protect YOU and your immediate family.
Its not to protect your buddy or other civilians.

That is one philosophy, it is certainly not the only one and it is certainly not a hard and fast rule.



The majority of states have it in their law that if your over 7 yards away, its no longer "self-defense", its MURDER.

Also completely false.

ScottieG59
03-03-2012, 04:55
How many rounds to carry is determined by your comfort level. For me, I carry at least two extra magazines.

If you find yourself needing to use your weapon, you might wish you had more ammo. You might also wish you had an extra weapon, an armored vehicle, a personally assigned armed security detail, etc.

I have never had to deplete my ammo. I figure if two extra magazines is good for the police, I should not expect less for me.

Hedo1
03-03-2012, 06:00
It usually is plenty. But when you need more you really need more in a bad way!

It's kind of like 4 wheel drive in my truck. I don't use it often but when I do I really need it.

mah77
03-03-2012, 09:08
.....

I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

unit1069
03-03-2012, 09:31
I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

I doubt society would look favorably upon any of us who stood by and allowed Mr. Mallshooter to gun down innocent people when we might have prevented it. I'm not a lawyer and I understand a CCW holder must be sure of the situation, but I certainly wouldn't want to be the poster child for legal CCW who stood by when I could have saved others.

RussP
03-03-2012, 09:32
I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.Is that true in all 50 states?

Fragman
03-03-2012, 09:37
I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

Ability, opportunity and intent to cause grave physical harm to you OR others.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lampshade
03-03-2012, 11:32
While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

You are continuing to speak too matter of factly.

A person with a firearm, for instance, can clearly pose a lethal threat from more than 7 yards away.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

Or others. Or to stop a rape, or a kidnapping. In some cases it can be any forcible felony, in others, mere mischief during the nightime. It all depends on the specific statutes where you are.



So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution.

Depends where you are.


If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

Depends where you are.

Gtoboi65
03-03-2012, 14:22
Wow this thread has jumped all over the place and the OP hasn't even had a chance to chime back in. Despite all of the caliber debates and how many extra mags you need to carry there is a lot of great information here. I am surprised the G30/G36 or otherwise known as the G66 hybrid didn't get thrown in to the loop. :rofl:

Back to you Brad55102, you are the only one that can answer this question for yourself. Have you had a chance to shoot the G36? If not rent one. I asked myself the same question as you did and turned out that the G36 wasn't even an option as i didn't care to shoot it. The wider frame of the 30 fit me far better and solved all of my issues with compromised fire power.

Maybe rent a similar sized 9mm and 40 sw? Keep an open mind.:dunno:

As far as your state laws go and your right to protect ones self and others, If you have completed a CCW course and obtained a permit then you should know your state's individual laws. Not all are the same.

Again take the time to make the decision your self and spend a few dollars at the range renting a few different models. In the end, you can be confident that you can bet your life on it.

wprebeck
03-03-2012, 17:30
I shouldn't have spoken so matter-of-factly.


While there is no specific PC code pertaining to it, case law has proved this time and again.

In order to use deadly force, the alleged individual(s) must present the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause physical harm to you.

So if Mr. Mallshooter is firing in a direction, other than yours, you risk prosecution. If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

There is literally nothing more dangerous to you and your family than not understanding what is meant by "immediate" or "imminent". This idea cuts through all emotions, fears, thoughts and suspicions and defines when you are "in the eyes of the law", justified to use lethal force.

I'd suggest you immediately check your state laws for defense of a third party. What you said is completey idiotic, stupid, and wrong.

ballr4lyf
03-03-2012, 17:40
I'd suggest you immediately check your state laws for defense of a third party. What you said is completey idiotic, stupid, and wrong.

This. I'm starting to think Mah77 has spent too much time behind the iron curtain (California). :whistling:

Atlas
03-03-2012, 18:08
Of all the semi-auto pistols on the block, probably none is faster-loading than the short, slim G36 magazine.

Merkavaboy
03-03-2012, 18:43
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

Nope.

This is why I decided never to carry a 45ACP pistol for SD long before I had ever seen this article.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

Even if I were a LEO I would want to carry a G17 loaded with Win Ranger 127SXT+P+.

notjustanothermini
03-03-2012, 20:08
i personally feel more comfort in a nice ol' double stacked mag.

my daily carry is a g29, with a g20 mag and plus 2 extesnion, for a total of 18 ultra potent underwood ammo 165 grain JHP's. and in the car under the seat, i keep the 57 round mag for the g29. yes i have a 55 round mag (well, i stopped filling it at 55 rounds)

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc482/notjustanothermini/DSCF7389.jpg

matthew.s
03-03-2012, 20:32
This is what my CCW instructor told me about the number of rounds you carry in a self defense weapon, when I asked him the same question.

"If you need more than 7 rounds of .45 ACP in a typical street confrontations or in a home defense scenario, then you aren't in a self defense scenario, you're in a war, and you can't guarantee your safety, so get your ass out of there."

People have no problems carrying Colt Commanders, which are 6+1 or 7+1 so in all honestly, if you get a Pierce Grip Extender for a G36, you're bringing more than enough firepower for a street confrontation.

But there is nothing to say you can't carry 1 or 2 extra magazines to continue the storm if you need to.

RedsoxFan4Lyfe
03-03-2012, 20:45
I think that 7 rounds in plenty and just carry a spare mag. For many years I carried a 1911, which was 7+1 really and made it to 8+1 when such mags came out and proved reliable for the 1911 platform. Most days I carry my Glock 19 with a spare mag. More for a failure of the mag, not so much for a reload.

Violence happens fast and close. If you don't get it done with 7 rounds, or 17 rounds, you are likely not getting it done.

I guess it's just a personal thing really. It has no right or wrong answer.

frankmako
03-03-2012, 20:50
yes, 6 round will be ok. most gun fights are not like what you see on tv.

beforeobamabans
03-04-2012, 02:41
yes, 6 round will be ok. most gun fights are not like what you see on tv.

And then there was the GT member who was out jogging with his Kimber 7+1 when he got clubbed in the head from behind and knocked to the ground. Dazed and prone on his back, he fired all eight rounds at what turned out to be two adversaries. One perp took four .45acps and dropped dead. The second perp got away. It is unknown if he was hit. One thing is for sure, the victim was out of ammo and he's lucky perp #2 wasn't armed or in the mood to fight.

English
03-04-2012, 04:48
This is what my CCW instructor told me about the number of rounds you carry in a self defense weapon, when I asked him the same question.

"If you need more than 7 rounds of .45 ACP in a typical street confrontations or in a home defense scenario, then you aren't in a self defense scenario, you're in a war, and you can't guarantee your safety, so get your ass out of there."....

It is amazing what nonsense some instructors can talk and how many people repeat this idea.

If someone is trying to kill you in a non war environment, why would anyone think they are going to stop trying because you are running away? Bullets are faster than running and BGs can run after you with plenty of rounds left in their double stack 9s.

Of course the majority of self defense fire fights don't take more than 4 or 5 rounds (GGs don't soot BGs when they are running away), but some do.

English

RYT 2BER
03-04-2012, 07:47
I'll say what I always say on the subjects..

IMO yes lesser rounds is probably enough.. but I'd certainly rather more.. the mystique of .45 isn't worth the capacity limitations to me (honestly I don't think it should be for others).

I don't believe .45 is going to ballistically more impressive than .40 for example so I'd rather have more rounds. Actually I never carry 9mm but I would over .45 for the extra capacity any day...

But again its a personal preference.... we all know that 2-3 rounds is probably enough for real world SD but I just feel that more is better when the opportunity is there...

Seraph
03-04-2012, 08:02
You'll never know if you've brought "enough" rounds, until the encounter is finished. The sidearms that I prefer to carry generally hold more than 6 rounds, but there have been a few times when I dashed out the door with a J-frame in my jacket pocket. If you pick a sidearm with which you can do well, and practice with it, and then carry it as often as you can, then you're doing so much more than most ever will, and hopefully more than you will ever need. Just do your best, whatever happens.

Southswede
03-04-2012, 09:48
After having "been there, done that" I can say that it does NOT matter how many rounds you are carrying-it will NEVER seem like you have enough ammo.

GRT45
03-04-2012, 10:43
Merkavaboy, thanks very much for posting the link to that important story. I had not read it before. It was filled with so many good lessons that I took time to carefully summarize the 3-page story for my library of "teachable moments" involving firearms and self defense.

In hopes that more people will read and learn from the event, I include below my shortened summary of the story.
Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008 (http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx)

Photo gallery for the story (http://www.policemag.com/PhotoGallery/Photos/146/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Ill-Crime-Scene.aspx)


The report is a harrowing tale of a deadly daylight gunfight on 8/25/2008 between Officer Tim Gramins, a 14-year veteran of the Skokie, IL PD, and a black, male bank robbery suspect Raymond Maddox.
After calling for backup, Officer Gramins pursued Maddox in a car chase. The chase ended in a residential neighborhood when Maddox suddenly stopped, quickly exited his car and charged toward the patrol unit firing a Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm semi-auto pistol⁽⁾ at Gramins who was still seated in the stopped patrol car located only 15 ft away.

Officer Gramins drew his holstered Glock 21 .45 ACP pistol and returned fire. The two exchanged fire through the rapidly disintegrating windshield of the patrol car until, nearly simultaneously, Maddox’s S&W 9mm pistol jammed (failure to eject) and Gramins expended his primary magazine that had been loaded with 12 rounds⁽⁾ plus the one round he kept loaded in the chamber.

Maddox retreated to his car and ditched the 9mm pistol to retrieve a Bersa Blue Thunder .380 semi-auto pistol⁽⁾, while Officer Gramins exited the patrol car, knelt down at the front of the car and reloaded with his first spare mag loaded with 12 rounds.

The two began again to exchange gunfire as Officer Gramins quickly moved down the driver's side of his patrol car and around the rear to the passenger side to a position providing cover and a view forward. Having emptied his first spare mag, Gramins loaded his second spare mag containing 12 rounds. With the patrol car between them, the two men engaged in a deadly game of cat and mouse; one would rise and fire as the other ducked.

Maddox eventually stayed below view and Officer Gramins went prone to fire under the car in Maddox’s direction.

After some brief, ineffective point shooting by Officer Gramins that struck the tire and underside of the patrol car, Gramins paused and took careful aim at the head of Maddox who was crouched on the downslope of the opposite side of the street. Gramins fired a rapid, three-shot volley striking Maddox in the head three times and he went down, ending the fight immediately.

Maddox was transported to St. Francis Hospital where he was pronounced dead. Except for a few cuts on the chin from flying debris, Officer Gramins was mentally and physically uninjured in the horrendous exchange and was released from the hospital the next day.

Later investigation revealed that Officer Gramins had only a total of 4 rounds remaining in the second spare magazine and chamber when the fight ended, thus he had fired a total of 33 rounds of 45ACP ammo (12+1, reload, 12, reload, 8). Of the 33 rounds fired, he hit Maddox a total of 17 times including the final three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen. Maddox had fired a total of 22 rounds from the 9mm and .380 pistols. The shootout lasted for over sixty seconds of sustained fire.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins said. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Gramins had a Glock 26 backup gun but never got to it. Investigators recovered an SKS rifle from Maddox's car trunk along with a magazine and 7.62 rounds. Fortunately, Maddox didn’t use this rifle in the exchange.

Officer Gramins partly credits SWAT training for coming out on top and his outside training, reading and study of the psychology and physiology of combat, together with his strong will to live stemming from a deep love for his son and desire to attend his son’s birthday party that night.

_____________________________

Editor's Comments:

1. Smith & Wesson 5906 9mm pistol probably had a 15-rnd mag
2. Evidently it is Skokie, IL PD policy, or the personal preference of Officer Gramins, to load 12 rounds in the G21 standard 13-rd capacity mag
3. Bersa Blue Thunder .380 pistol probably had a 9-rnd mag
Nope.

This is why I decided never to carry a 45ACP pistol for SD long before I had ever seen this article.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx (http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx)

Even if I were a LEO I would want to carry a G17 loaded with Win Ranger 127SXT+P+.

Glenn E. Meyer
03-04-2012, 12:46
Just got done listening to Tom Givens and Jim Higginbottam expound on this subject. Many, many cases of more than a few being needed.

Yep, they are not as typical as Mugger-be-gone where you just wave your gun around like a cross to Dracula. But not to have more rounds is flat out stupid as was the analysis of the law (Geez!).

series1811
03-04-2012, 12:53
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

The deadliest gunfighter I ever worked with (17 gunfights where the bad guy ended up dead in 50 years of law enforcement) carried at model 10 S & W and was only a mediocre shot.

ConcealedG23
03-04-2012, 23:15
Looks like 6 rounds should be just fine.

D

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2012/03/self-defense-findings.html

hunter won
03-05-2012, 07:04
I remember hearing this incident. Training,shot placement and firepower won the fight. If a bad guy is determined to keep fighting after being hit. One well placed shot well end the fight if it connects the CNS or cranial brain stem. This is a good reason to carry a spare magazine.

series1811
03-05-2012, 07:34
I remember hearing this incident. Training,shot placement and firepower won the fight. If a bad guy is determined to keep fighting after being hit. One well placed shot well end the fight if it connects the CNS or cranial brain stem. This is a good reason to carry a spare magazine.

At then end of the Miami gunfight, after over a hundred rounds fired, FBI agent Ed Mirales killed Platt and Matix with six rounds of .38 special +p from his S&W revolver.

ATW525
03-05-2012, 08:45
I remember hearing this incident. Training,shot placement and firepower won the fight. If a bad guy is determined to keep fighting after being hit. One well placed shot well end the fight if it connects the CNS or cranial brain stem. This is a good reason to carry a spare magazine.

Training and shot placement, certainly. I'm not so sure about firepower, though... it sounds like it was largely ineffective. From what I read, I got the impression that the fight wasn't won until the officer stopped with the spray and pray and focused on making good hits. Once that happened, he ended it with three good shots.

mah77
03-05-2012, 13:56
At then end of the Miami gunfight, after over a hundred rounds fired, FBI agent Ed Mirales killed Platt and Matix with six rounds of .38 special +p from his S&W revolver.


Only partially true:

William Matix: Died after being shot 6 times.
Michael Platt: Died after being shot 12 times.

3 FBI agents were armed with .357s shooting .38 +P. 39 rounds fired. 1 killed.
Other 3 agents armed with 9mm's. 43 rounds fired.

Southswede
03-05-2012, 14:37
Only partially true:

William Matix: Died after being shot 6 times.
Michael Platt: Died after being shot 12 times.

3 FBI agents were armed with .357s shooting .38 +P. 39 rounds fired. 1 killed.
Other 3 agents armed with 9mm's. 43 rounds fired.

Only partially true.

We do not know how many times Platt and Matix were shot. We only know how many projectiles were recovered from each. Mirales was using a shotgun initially.

There were 8 FBI agents on scene. Grogan and Dove were using S&W 9mm's. They were both killed. The other 6 were carrying revolvers.

We also know that no shots were fired after Mirales emptied his revolver.

ATW525
03-05-2012, 15:14
Only partially true.

We do not know how many times Platt and Matix were shot. We only know how many projectiles were recovered from each. Mirales was using a shotgun initially.

There were 8 FBI agents on scene. Grogan and Dove were using S&W 9mm's. They were both killed. The other 6 were carrying revolvers.

We also know that no shots were fired after Mirales emptied his revolver.

I don't recall his name, but the only agent not wounded was also carrying a 9mm like Grogan & Dove. Also, I'm pretty sure one agent wasn't able to fight because he lost his gun in the initial car accident.

G31
03-05-2012, 15:43
6 rounds is plenty capable against most people, but keep in mind, the more dynamic the situation, the worse your chances at making a good shot. Not trying to provoke a worst-case, but 6 rounds might not get you beyond a single attacker, if all you make are non-vital hits. That depends on the will power of the attacker, of course. You just don't know if you're up against a sissy baby attacker, or someone doped up on pain killers with altered mental status. You don't know that you'll be able to put down your Big Mac and fries calmly, draw, and fire one round to end the attack, or if you will expend 4 rounds into the brick wall behind the BG trying to shoot a moving target.

I refuse to walk around like a mobile armory, but also try to be practical about my carry choice. I can carry my G33 with 10+1, or a snubby 5-shot revolver with the same effort. Logic just puts the higher capacity on top. Furthermore, a G26 is easier to conceal than a G36, and also benefits from added capacity. As for training, you can shoot well with anything you practice with, so the argument of shooting one better than the other is moot. That's my argument.

Having said that, carry decisions are personal, so do what you feel is best.

Southswede
03-05-2012, 19:34
I don't recall his name, but the only agent not wounded was also carrying a 9mm like Grogan & Dove. Also, I'm pretty sure one agent wasn't able to fight because he lost his gun in the initial car accident.

Ron Risner was the agent that did not get shot. Risner carried a revolver. Grogan and Dove were the only agents SWAT trained and the only ones authorized to carry semi auto handguns.

Risner was looking where he thought his revolver was. It was later recovered in the rocker panel of the car he was riding in.

Warp
03-05-2012, 19:40
Depends.

Today I carried only 5 rounds.

Generally I like to have 10 or more.

jdavionic
03-05-2012, 19:43
No disrespect intended - but another question with no answer. If one carried for 25 years and never had to use it, an empty gun would be "enough".

Everybody has to select their own comfort level - nobody else can determine that for you. My comfort level is a Sig P226 .40, two spare 13 round mags, an S&W M60 on my left side and a Speedstrip in my pocket.

Pretty much this ^

It boils down to your own risk assessment. If you believe there is an unacceptable risk of needing more rounds, then you should pick a gun with more rounds. If you believe there is an unacceptable risk of needing a spare magazine, then you should carry a spare mag.

series1811
03-05-2012, 19:46
Only partially true:

William Matix: Died after being shot 6 times.
Michael Platt: Died after being shot 12 times.

3 FBI agents were armed with .357s shooting .38 +P. 39 rounds fired. 1 killed.
Other 3 agents armed with 9mm's. 43 rounds fired.

They were both alive and trying to escape when shot by Mirales. I was counting all of the rounds fired, not just the agent's rounds.

And, there were eight agents in the gunfight, with two killed.

NAC- 88-9

series1811
03-05-2012, 19:52
Ron Risner was the agent that did not get shot. Risner carried a revolver. Grogan and Dove were the only agents SWAT trained and the only ones authorized to carry semi auto handguns.

Risner was looking where he thought his revolver was. It was later recovered in the rocker panel of the car he was riding in.

Risner had a 9mm and a .38 J frame. He didn't lose either gun.

mah77
03-05-2012, 20:01
We do not know how many times Platt and Matix were shot.

False. We do know how many times they were shot.

Heres probably one of the best write-ups Ive seen on the event:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

mah77
03-05-2012, 20:04
Risner was looking where he thought his revolver was. It was later recovered in the rocker panel of the car he was riding in.

Your thinking of Manauzzi. He was the one who lost possession of his handgun and was unable to find it during the gunfight.

porschedog
03-05-2012, 20:07
Enough for what?

12 zombies, no

But carry a spare mag and you'll be good to go

Southswede
03-05-2012, 20:16
Risner had a 9mm and a .38 J frame. He didn't lose either gun.

I stand corrected-getting old and all that goes with it. I got Risner and Manauzzi mixed up.

series1811
03-06-2012, 03:56
I stand corrected-getting old and all that goes with it. I got Risner and Manauzzi mixed up.

Same here, I understand. I used to be more up on the facts of this twenty something years ago when it got discussed more. I've had it presented so many times, and so many different ways.

I even got one version of it from Ed. :supergrin:

Southswede
03-06-2012, 06:25
Same here, I understand. I used to be more up on the facts of this twenty something years ago when it got discussed more. I've had it presented so many times, and so many different ways.

I even got one version of it from Ed. :supergrin:

I'm right there with you!

What I find intriguing is the 9mm Silvertip being blamed for failing. So we got first the 10mm, then the 40 S&W. We wanted as many rounds as we could put in our hands without reloading. Now I am noticing a small trend going back to 9mm. And the topic of this thread asking if six rounds is enough.

What it all tells me is if I do my job, it doesn't matter what reasonable cartridge/gun combination I carry.

thesilverbullet
03-22-2012, 18:01
another way to solve the g36 low cap. concern is to buy two and have wife carry the second one...

g36 x2 = 14 rds....

RYT 2BER
03-22-2012, 18:11
another way to solve the g36 low cap. concern is to buy two and have wife carry the second one...

g36 x2 = 14 rds....

Heres an even better idea.. I'll carry my g23 with the same 14 rounds and I don't have to ask the attacker to stop and give me a minute to go rifling through my wife's purse. :whistling::upeyes:

High Altitude
03-22-2012, 19:31
Does anyone really think a .6" expanded 9mm through the heart or head is going to have any less effect than a .7" expanded .45acp through the heart or head?

You place a CNS hit with a service pistol cartridge and the person goes down.

Anything less than that and the outcome is completely up to the person being shot.

Some run away, some fall down in pain, some go down from the enormous amount of fear from being shot, some give up and some just keep right on fighting until they eventually bleed out or you get that CNS hit.

If the person decides to keep right on fighting, you better have enough rounds to stay in the fight.

Warp
03-22-2012, 21:02
Does anyone really think a .6" expanded 9mm through the heart or head is going to have any less effect than a .7" expanded .45acp through the heart or head?

I think that, for one, most people know better than to assume they will (if, God forbid, they have to fire in self defense) put a bullet through their attacker's heart or brain.



You place a CNS hit with a service pistol cartridge and the person goes down.

Yes.



Anything less than that and the outcome is completely up to the person being shot.

Some run away, some fall down in pain, some go down from the enormous amount of fear from being shot, some give up and some just keep right on fighting until they eventually bleed out or you get that CNS hit.

If the person decides to keep right on fighting, you better have enough rounds to stay in the fight.

A bigger wound channel will help.

More wound channels will help.

Caliber choice, in many ways, affects the two above.

Deaf Smith
03-22-2012, 21:09
While six should do if you are a expert shot under fire keep this in mind.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/18Feb12.html

And Gen. Brant closed that chapter of his memoirs saying, "... and I learned that afternoon that it's an entirely different matter shooting at a man, than at a paper target!"

Remember that. For you see even Wild Bill carried TWO revolvers. So did J.W. Hardin.

And Jim Cirillo carried THREE!

Deaf

unit1069
03-22-2012, 21:55
What I find intriguing is the 9mm Silvertip being blamed for failing. So we got first the 10mm, then the 40 S&W. We wanted as many rounds as we could put in our hands without reloading. Now I am noticing a small trend going back to 9mm. And the topic of this thread asking if six rounds is enough.

Going to 9mm may be due to the lower cost involved as well as the better shooting characteristics for the entire force that today includes a lot more female officers than 25 years ago. That said, from what I've read the real failing in the Miami incident was tactics but with bureaucracies sometimes a scapegoat is required, and perhaps the 9mm caliber/Silvertip was one of several that were picked.

High Altitude
03-23-2012, 01:05
A bigger wound channel will help.

More wound channels will help.

Caliber choice, in many ways, affects the two above.

A slightly bigger hole means slightly more blood loss.

OK

But how much difference???? Does a person drop dead from blood loss after 2 min from a 45 and 2min 29 seconds from a 9mm??

It really makes no difference anyway because in both cases the perp will have plenty of time to fire all of his shots if your plan is to wait for someone to bleed out and they are determined to keep fighting.

You either get a CNS hit, run away/evade or be able to continue to shoot the person more than they can shoot you.

Warp
03-23-2012, 10:26
A slightly bigger hole means slightly more blood loss.

OK

But how much difference???? Does a person drop dead from blood loss after 2 min from a 45 and 2min 29 seconds from a 9mm??

It really makes no difference anyway because in both cases the perp will have plenty of time to fire all of his shots if your plan is to wait for someone to bleed out and they are determined to keep fighting.

You either get a CNS hit, run away/evade or be able to continue to shoot the person more than they can shoot you.


It really could make a difference.

I have Glocks in 9 and .45. I carry both. I spend a lot more time carrying the 9. It's fine. And it has plenty of advantages. But to argue that, all else equal, a larger wound channel "makes no difference" is silly.

High Altitude
03-23-2012, 10:48
It really could make a difference.

I have Glocks in 9 and .45. I carry both. I spend a lot more time carrying the 9. It's fine. And it has plenty of advantages. But to argue that, all else equal, a larger wound channel "makes no difference" is silly.

OK, the perp has 18 rounds of ammunition in his glock 17.

Do you really think a person is going to bleed out from non CNS hits before they can pull the trigger 18 times???????

Are you going to be telling yourself, good thing that wound channel was slightly larger and the perp was only able to fire 13 rounds, if it was a 9mm he would of fired all 18.

With either round that person will have plenty of time to shoot all their ammo if they so choose.

So, will he die from a slightly larger wound channel in the end, most likely, does it have any bearing during the actual shooting part of the gun fight, not likely.

FireForged
03-23-2012, 10:49
If I cannot change someone's channel with (6) shots, I know I can run a mile in eight minutes.

Warp
03-23-2012, 10:54
With either round that person will have plenty of time to shoot all their ammo if they so choose.

So...you are guaranteeing me that a person shot by a service caliber handgun, not CNS, WILL, absolutely, every time, have plenty of time to shoot all of their rounds?

High Altitude
03-23-2012, 11:00
So...you are guaranteeing me that a person shot by a service caliber handgun, not CNS, WILL, absolutely, every time, have plenty of time to shoot all of their rounds?

Yup, if the person makes that choice to keep firing, they will not be dead in the next 20 seconds and will have plenty of time.

Warp
03-23-2012, 11:03
Yup, if the person makes that choice to keep firing, they will not be dead in the next 20 seconds and will have plenty of time.

That's a pretty bold statement.

Especially since they don't have to be "dead" in order to be incapacitated.

So what will you say if I find even one verifiable event where a person was shot by a pistol, not to the CNS, and went down/out in less than 20 seconds?

High Altitude
03-23-2012, 11:12
That's a pretty bold statement.

Especially since they don't have to be "dead" in order to be incapacitated.

So what will you say if I find even one verifiable event where a person was shot by a pistol, not to the CNS, and went down/out in less than 20 seconds?

Lots of guys do down from non CNS hits.

They go down because of fear (OMG!!! I have been shot), they go down because of pain (that hurts, please don't shoot me any more), they go down because they give up (I don't want to die!!!), they run away etc.....

But if they make the choice to stay in the fight, then nothing is preventing them from still firing unless their hands no longer function.

If after being shot a couple times and a person is still in the fight, more pain is simply not going to help because the person is no longer going to feel it. They have made the decision that what ever they are feeling doesn't matter, plus shock takes over.

So you have a few choices: Run, get that CNS shot, or be able to outlast your opponent. Usually that means whoever runs out of bullets first, starts to get shot or runs first.

SCmasterblaster
03-23-2012, 11:24
It's actually 6+1, so its 7.

I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. And it is seven rounds of a cartridge that has over 100 years of proven effectiveness - I would bet my life on seven rounds of .45ACP JHP cartidges.

:cool:

Warp
03-23-2012, 11:25
Lots of guys do down from non CNS hits.

They go down because of fear (OMG!!! I have been shot), they go down because of pain (that hurts, please don't shoot me any more), they go down because they give up (I don't want to die!!!), they run away etc.....

But if they make the choice to stay in the fight, then nothing is preventing them from still firing unless their hands no longer function.

If after being shot a couple times and a person is still in the fight, more pain is simply not going to help because the person is no longer going to feel it. They have made the decision that what ever they are feeling doesn't matter, plus shock takes over.

So you have a few choices: Run, get that CNS shot, or be able to outlast your opponent. Usually that means whoever runs out of bullets first, starts to get shot or runs first.

People can be incapacitated/relieved of their ability to continue attacking by more than simply pain/fear compliance or knocking out their CNS. Sufficient blood loss, for example, can also force the attack to cease.

I suggest that you have a lot more reading to do.

High Altitude
03-23-2012, 11:29
People can be incapacitated/relieved of their ability to continue attacking by more than simply pain/fear compliance or knocking out their CNS. Sufficient blood loss, for example, can also force the attack to cease.

I suggest that you have a lot more reading to do.

Of course sufficient blood loss will enventually stop some one, but not fast enough.

You will be able to empty your gun if you so choose before you bleed out. Guys with enough ammunition have stayed in the fight for minutes while bleeding out.

So once again, if a guy can empty his gun while bleeding out, does it really matter how quick he eventually has to stop due to blood loss after he runs out of ammo?

Warp
03-23-2012, 11:44
Of course sufficient blood loss will enventually stop some one, but not fast enough.

You will be able to empty your gun if you so choose before you bleed out. Guys with enough ammunition have stayed in the fight for minutes while bleeding out.

So once again, if a guy can empty his gun while bleeding out, does it really matter how quick he eventually has to stop due to blood loss after he runs out of ammo?

If you want to ask any actual questions, not statements written with a ? at the end, let me know.

USSOCOM
03-23-2012, 17:46
I had a 36, but now have a 30SF. Love it and size and weight does not matter to me. The 30 carries well IWB and I'd rather have the 11 rounds too.

High Altitude
03-23-2012, 18:03
If you want to ask any actual questions, not statements written with a ? at the end, let me know.

Just throwing out my opinions based on my experience and study.

Agree to disagree etc..........

Now I am off to go clean my new gen4 34........

thesilverbullet
03-23-2012, 21:41
Heres an even better idea.. I'll carry my g23 with the same 14 rounds and I don't have to ask the attacker to stop and give me a minute to go rifling through my wife's purse. :whistling::upeyes:

if it's an "attacker" she wont need my help :whistling:
and it's not coming from a purse :supergrin:

PS - the 442 is her backup...

SCmasterblaster
03-24-2012, 12:59
Six rounds were enough for Colt SAA carriers for close to 100 years. But those were 255gr .45 bullets. This is why my next gun will be my second Glock - a G36 - with seven rounds of .45 ACP to take care of 99% of the shooting sitiuations. I'll carry my bowling pin shooting load - a 255gr LSWC bullet at 800 FPS (Power Factor 205 out of the G36).

English
03-24-2012, 18:22
Six rounds were enough for Colt SAA carriers for close to 100 years. But those were 255gr .45 bullets. This is why my next gun will be my second Glock - a G36 - with seven rounds of .45 ACP to take care of 99% of the shooting sitiuations. I'll carry my bowling pin shooting load - a 255gr LSWC bullet at 800 FPS (Power Factor 205 out of the G36).

Unless you have some means of finding out what proportion of those SAA carriers died because they only had 6, or 5, rounds available to them, your statement makes no sense.

The simple fact was that they did not have any better choice. Many carried two SAA Colts and one or two 2 shot Derringers because they did not think that 6 rounds was enough.

English

xXxplosive
03-24-2012, 18:50
The reason why I purchased a new 30SF......10+1 is some Serious Business.

glock20fanboy
03-24-2012, 18:59
Practice and shot placement are the ONLY thing that truly matters. You can either have good shot placement or not. Who was it that said to fear the man with only one gun (because he knows how to shoot it)??

I personally prefer my G29. No, I can't shoot it fast. But I don't need to. I can shoot it well.

DScottHewitt
03-26-2012, 12:20
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

It is.




















































Until it isn't.

Besides the main reason for carrying an extra magazine is because the one in the pipe might fail.....

Simple_Man
03-27-2012, 22:26
Well I carry a Kimber ultra sometimes and sometimes I carry my Body Guard 38 Spl. and its a 5 rounder. I never feel under powered I carry a spare mag in a mag pouch just in case but I always train and practice double tap Torso and 1 head. I am looking to get into a shootout with someone and I am not saying that would not happen cause it very well could all I am saying is I am not going to skin my iron till I have to and it's going to be CQB God forbid I ever have to but I try to stay prepared to do so.

MinnesnowtaWild
03-27-2012, 23:50
Just for me personally I choose more rounds than less, and if I have to downgrade calibers (to a point) then I will do as I see fit. We watched a video today in our academy of a officer who shot a man point blank just above the naval with a .45 ACP and he continued to try and stab the officer for over 10 minutes until he was arrested. But then you have George Zimmerman who only needed one round of 9mm to the chest to kill Martin...so it's really never known how many is enough so I will take as many rounds as possible.

Bill Lumberg
03-28-2012, 07:46
For ccw, sure. You're far more likely to need your cellphone than a round. That said, if it's going to nag at you, stress you out, from a psychological perspective, go with something different. im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

MR57
04-03-2012, 00:44
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

I think 6 rounds is a joke. I carry XD45 13rds. Extra 13rds in clip on belt. That's my opinion.

series1811
04-03-2012, 07:20
I think Jeff Cooper had it right when he was asked if high capacity magazines were necessary in a gunfight. :supergrin:

MinnesnowtaWild
04-03-2012, 23:57
I have seen waaay too many videos in the academy this year to show that caliber really doesn't mean much, at all. Shot placement and round count is key. Just today we watched the video from the early 90's in I believe it was South Carolina. An officer was shot twice with a .22 LR Derringer and was killed when a bullet ricocheted off his arm and into his aorta. The officer before he died unloaded 5 rounds from his .357 revolver into the guys chest, and he is still alive.

There was another incident where an officer shot a guy point blank in the chest with a .45 ACP and the guy continued to fight for a ridiculous amount of time.

ZO6Vettever
04-04-2012, 06:04
Six ain't enough for me. Three or four attackers, all moving and returning fire, Dirty Harry could drop em' all but not this Bozo! Eleven rounds of 45ACP in my G30 is the minimum for me.

Arc Angel
04-04-2012, 06:38
im interested in a G36
my problem is, i cant decide if 6 rounds is enough.
what do you think?

With 45 ACP I most often carry 12 in the pistol; and another 16 on my belt. The REAL PURPOSE of the second magazine is not to have more ammo; instead it's to allow you to make a quick replacement if the first magazine should happen to go down.

So, the correct answer to your question is, 'NO!' Six rounds is NOT enough. If you're carrying a semiautomatic pistol you MUST have an extra magazine with you.

Now, to rephrase your question: 'Is six shots enough?' My answer to this one is, 'Yes!' I've been walking around for the last couple of days with a six shot revolver on my belt. At and inside 15 yards I've only rarely missed a six inch COM - Even when the target was moving.

I practice a lot with a pistol. Give me a six inch COM; and a six shot pistol; and, I guarantee I'll put the first three shots I fire right into the center of the plate. Like this:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3353/12yardsrapidtarget1sf7.jpg

(Rapid fire @ 12 yards just as fast as the pistol could go, 'Bang!' Once I warm up I can do this, and farther, all day long.)

Southswede
04-04-2012, 16:16
I have seen waaay too many videos in the academy this year to show that caliber really doesn't mean much, at all. Shot placement and round count is key. Just today we watched the video from the early 90's in I believe it was South Carolina. An officer was shot twice with a .22 LR Derringer and was killed when a bullet ricocheted off his arm and into his aorta. The officer before he died unloaded 5 rounds from his .357 revolver into the guys chest, and he is still alive.

There was another incident where an officer shot a guy point blank in the chest with a .45 ACP and the guy continued to fight for a ridiculous amount of time.

Trooper Mark Coats incident.

LongGoneDays
04-04-2012, 17:36
If I had a 5 shot revolver and it fit a certain type of dress better than say, at least a Glock 26, I would feel fine during those specific times.

But if I'm going to commit to being as prepared as I can and I'm already carrying something as big as a Glock 36, it is going to have quite a bit more than 6 rounds. 11 + 10 at least.

ModGlock17
04-04-2012, 18:09
The goal of a hand gun is to buy you enough time to get to your AK-47, with 30 or 40 round mags.

LOL. Just kidding, sort of.

PAGunner
04-04-2012, 19:01
6 rounds in the vast majority of cases you'll need a weapon for self defense is plenty, there are always exceptions, so what you carry depends on your comfort level (both physically and mentally).

I sometimes only carry my 5 shot J-frame, and I feel very comfortable with just that. Other times I carry my USPc. 45 with extra mag and J-frame, and wear it comfortably. Probably overkill but if it doesn't effect my comfort, why not? YMMV

unit1069
04-04-2012, 20:35
I think 6 rounds is a joke. I carry XD45 13rds. Extra 13rds in clip on belt. That's my opinion.

Six rounds of an adequate premium JHP self-defense round is certainly no joke if you're on the receiving end. I'm not a good enough marksman/CCW holder to rely on a low-capacity revolver but I do respect the capability of that design and the competent people who decide to carry a revolver.

I currently prefer a semi-auto with a 10-round capacity but would consider purchasing a nice 5- or 6-shot CCW revolver if it came my way at the right price.

MinnesnowtaWild
04-05-2012, 02:24
Trooper Mark Coats incident.

That is correct.

SGT278ACR
04-05-2012, 11:18
Like another poster in this thread said... "individual preference". 6 should be more than enough for the average personal defense situation unless you're one of those goober "zombie killer" nut jobs. Which, by the way, I haven't heard of any "real" zombie situations in the news. Just sayin'.

Wishoot
04-05-2012, 13:02
Depends on the neighborhood I'm going too.

Most often, I feel perfectly comfortable with an LCR loaded with 5 rounds of +p. There have been other times where a platoon of well-armed Marines would of been nice to have around.

thesilverbullet
03-02-2013, 21:35
i love my 36 but i love the dbl stack mags more and even more now with the 30S - cant wait to get my hands on a 30s gen4....

Lior
03-03-2013, 03:15
Let's hope most of us will not have to find out if 6 (+1?) rounds are enough. With our wits about us, we can avoid a lot of trouble, but nobody is going to complain about having too much ammo if they get into a gunfight.

HKLovingIT
03-03-2013, 09:46
Lemme check the Magic 8-Ball and the Crystal Ball...

Results say: Uncertain at this time...:supergrin:

Is it enough?

There are many that say the mere presence of your firearm will deter the bad guy and make him run away and stop trying to harm you. Maybe that is true. I dunno. That's what Joe Biden says so it must be true. Gov. Cuomo and the state of NY thinks six or seven is enough.

I think it is enough in the following scenario:

1. There is only one assailant.
2. You don't miss.
3. Your firearm does not malfunction.
4. You don't have a dud round.
5. The bullet functions as designed.
6. You hit in a spot that physiologically or psychologically causes the person to stop their actions and to desist from attempting to murder you despite whatever drugs they may be on, mental illness they suffer from or just brute physical toughness they possess.

In other words, after the worst day of your life starts, everything else goes perfect and goes your way. By that logic, one should be sufficient.

So, is six enough? :dunno:

Sometimes I carry a J-Frame. Sometimes a little Kahr PM-9. I can't deny that I feel more prepared with a G26, G19 or G17.

But that is like my opinion man.

sgtbones
03-03-2013, 10:03
Is 6 rds enough ? That's the mentality of the NY GOV. :steamed:

John Rambo
03-03-2013, 10:19
Six ain't enough for me. Three or four attackers, all moving and returning fire, Dirty Harry could drop em' all but not this Bozo! Eleven rounds of 45ACP in my G30 is the minimum for me.

This just happened to me last week...!

...While I was playing Fallout New Vegas. Damn Powder Gangers and their dynamite.




6 rounds is fine. But its 7 rounds you can hold in that gun when its chambered. Which is even more fine.

Filhar
03-03-2013, 12:29
If I ever need a gun, I may not need more than 5 or 6 rounds......but what if the one time I do need my gun I need more then 5 or 6? As with all things, it's your skin make your choice and take your chances.

Agree 100 per cent. My xdm 3.8 compact 45 holds 9 + 1, and I feel better carrying it than my g26 with 12 + 1 and there isn't a significant size difference.
Just can't understand being so much in love with that revolver that you want to live with it forever. Might as well put that 2 shot derringer in your pocket cause you've never needed more.
Carry what you like, but Don't tell everyone else they are "mall ninjas" for carrying more than you.

fastbolt
03-03-2013, 13:37
Just saw this thread pop up again from last year. Looked and saw my postings were done just over a year ago.

The only thing that seems to have changed for me is that I've picked up a LCP for those times when one of my assortment of J-frames are still too large to properly conceal as retirement weapons, depending on my clothing choices and planned activities.

I found it interesting to see that 2 of the pistols I mentioned in my earlier threads (CS45 w/6-rd mags & 4040PD w/7-rd mags) are still seeing more carry usage than my other subcompact/compact/full-size pistols with greater magazine capacities. (I've still been using them for working range sessions and running drills with them recently, too. ;) )

I even chose my CS45 over my G27 yesterday when taking my motorcycle out to wander along the Coast.

I still occasionally reflect back upon the days when I routinely carried a 6-shot revolver on & off-duty, and I still don't consider myself to have been horrendously under-equipped.

Of course, nowadays if I were to carry a revolver for LE duty, I'd probably "upgrade" my choice to one of the hi-cap 8-shot revolvers. :tongueout:

It's not always about sheer capacity. ;)

SCmasterblaster
03-03-2013, 15:08
Well if I only had 6 shots I would fire twice and see if the felon drops. Save four rounds for a CDG if necessary.

1smoothredneck
03-03-2013, 17:30
I liked my G36. I got rid of it due to capacity, tho. For all intents and purposes, it was the same size as my G19 and my G23. Now, I carried an Officers Model 1911 for years, and was well protected, so It wasn't just about the capacity of the 36.. It was just always on my mind that I could be carrying many more rounds for the same outlay of concealment effort within the Glock family.
I don't carry with delusions of grandeur, as I'm no longer a LEO, and I don't go looking for trouble. I DO, however, carry for the worst case scenario. And although being attacked by a couple of bad guys in a parking lot is a very bad scenario indeed, it is, sadly, NOT the worst case one hears about these days. Gangs of thugs playing the "knockout" game, "Flash Mob" attacks, extremely well armed, and possibly armored "Active Shooter" cases, and Mumbai type terrorist attacks are very rare... But not unheard of. I just asked myself if the G36 made me as safe as I could be. My answer was no. Yours may be yes. The 36 is a fine weapon. Mine was accurate and reliable. So are my higher capacity weapons. You pays your money, and you takes your chances. Be safe.

ModGlock17
03-03-2013, 21:42
Why stay in a fight with just a handgun ?

Handguns are designed to give you enough time to get to a more dominant gun.

SCmasterblaster
03-04-2013, 06:59
6 rounds in the vast majority of cases you'll need a weapon for self defense is plenty, there are always exceptions, so what you carry depends on your comfort level (both physically and mentally).

I sometimes only carry my 5 shot J-frame, and I feel very comfortable with just that. Other times I carry my USPc. 45 with extra mag and J-frame, and wear it comfortably. Probably overkill but if it doesn't effect my comfort, why not? YMMV

If I had a G36, I'd load it with SEVEN rounds.

Southswede
03-04-2013, 12:03
Why stay in a fight with just a handgun ?

Handguns are designed to give you enough time to get to a more dominant gun.

I'm thinking the fight will be over before you can access anything you are not carrying.......

thesilverbullet
03-04-2013, 20:08
imo - the question is not how many rds - its how many rds / inch...

if i can get 4 more rds in a gun with the same hieght or 3 more rds and get shorter - i'll take it all day..

30 = 4.8", 10+ rds / 4.4", 9+ rds
36 = 4.76", 6+ rds