Absolutely awful experience with Tucson Police tonight.. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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dwalker84
02-26-2012, 01:53
So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation.... Well tonight was different.

First off, my registration was expired; I deserved the ticket I received completely. I shouldn't have put off going to get my emissions done, but with my hectic work schedule and newborn I procrastinated. Either way, I deserved to be pulled over and ticketed, period.

That said...

My fiance and I we're out on our date night that we get maybe once every month. Her mother is kind enough to take the kids for us for free so we can atleast get 2-3 hours alone. We drove up to Gates pass to watch the city lights, then proceeded to town to get some coffee before heading back to the house.

I should have known better than to drive into downtown on a Saturday, oh well.

A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights. I pulled over and stopped within 10 seconds, and never removed my hands from the wheel. He approaches, says "Why were you and the passenger moving around and fidgeting???" My hands never left the wheel from the time he pulled behind me, and my Fiance had her hands in her lap the entire time. I said "We never moved officer?" I found this odd, his demeanor was aggressive from the get-go. "License and Registration." and the first thing out of my mouth is "Officer, just so you're aware I'm carrying a concealed weapon, here's my CCW permit." as I handed him my ID and CCW. He asked me where it was, and I said 1:00 Oclock, appendix carry. He looked at me like "Huh?" but I certainly wasn't going to point :p - I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. In AZ we have constitutional carry so I don't need a permit, nor did I need to make him aware of it out of respect. He gets on the radio and says something along the lines of "Yeah hes got a gun..."

Suddenly another officer pops up on the right side of the car which startled my fiance.


The first officer immediately got more aggravated and nervous, as if presenting my ccw was a threat. As I was looking through my paperwork for my insurance he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.

As I'm looking across the car, the other officer looks me in the eyes, with this kind of "I'm sorry." look and body language. He hadn't said anything the entire time - but seemed calm and collected the whole time.

The first officer told me to get back into the car - The 2nd officer started talking to us about what we should expect as far as court and the registration - he was VERY polite and respectful. Infact, I think if he wasn't there - this interaction would have been 20X worse. I wish I had the chance to thank him for treating me like a citizen and not a criminal.

So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated, and start to think that hes going to try and start searching my car. I ask "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??" The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave. Fine, I pop it. I get out, and goto the trunk. The first officer starts DIGGING through my trunk, looking under my baby stroller, shining his light around, SEARCHING! After about 40 seconds of searching and digging, He pulls out a camo hat from the service, puts my mag, knives, etc. Shows me my gun, that it's clear, and places it in the trunk and shuts it.

I get back in the car, he hands me the ticket, and I asked if his badge number was on the citation, he says yes and leaves.

I don't know who the second officer was, but I thank god he was there. I couldn't imagine how bad this stop would have been if he wasn't. I desperately wish I could have extended a thank you. I am so unbelievably upset right now - This whole interaction was absolutely unnecessary - I gave him no reason to act in this way and I'm so disappointed. I respect law enforcement, infact I look up to them - I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight. I would have thought living in one of the most gun friendly states in the US that this wouldn't happen. Bummer.

:upeyes:

[Moderator Note - 02-26-2012 at 15:35: Please read post #48 before posting in this thread.]

id1otbox
02-26-2012, 02:06
Sorry for your unfortunate experience. Hopefully next month when you get to go out with your wife you wont have any reason for some cop having a bad day to harass you.

Some cops are d1cks and should be at a desk investigating instead of on the street carrying a gun. We hold them to a high standard but I guess we should not.....


**to all those nice cops out there whom hold themselves to a higher standard, thank you. Keep on keepin on**

spikedzombies
02-26-2012, 02:33
Seems like he was on edge and a little pissed at something that night. Just one of those random bad days for him I guess. He didn't need to be an ass to you though.

"Sent while riding my purple unicorn bareback through the clouds"

AA#5
02-26-2012, 02:53
IMO, a CCW'er's interaction with a cop depends on a couple of factors - the cop's personal views on CCW for non LEO's and the cop's personal views on gun ownership in general. I wouldn't be surprised if the cop in your situation didn't think anyone except cops should be allowed to carry or own guns.

I had a negative (non CCW) experience with a cop.
I wanted to test fire my Uzi & it was on the "Assault Weapons" list, so I phoned the range before driving there to verify that I would be allowed to shoot it. (I previously was not permitted to shoot it at another range after being told, "We don't allow assault weapons here.") I explained that it is semi auto & legally registered. The range employee said I could fire it if I showed them my registration from the Dept. of Justice. When I walked up to the counter to check in, the range employee was chatting with a uniformed police officer. The range employee said to me, "Are you the one with the Uzi?" I said, "Yes." I smiled politely at the cop & he gave me the nastiest, meanest, most hateful look I've ever seen on anyone. And he never stopped glaring at me while I filled out & signed the form, either. He also demanded to see my registration form, even after the range employee already checked it & it was quite obvious he was very disappointed that it was in order. What a shame.....I was going to let him try a 32-rd. mag on me.

frostamp
02-26-2012, 03:16
Maybe it was a desk jockey, who got out on patrol for once.

And he's ready to rid the world of its ills.

was the last name Fife?

Beretta92guy
02-26-2012, 06:07
I know one thing, cops better get used to law-abiding citizens carrying lawfully concealed weapons....

our numbers are growing at a very fast rate.....

and that really pisses me off what the OP was describing.....here is a citizen with a VALID ccw permit and is treated like some gumbo-head with a gun and a car full of weed :(((

macville
02-26-2012, 06:35
File a complaint with the Tucson Police-especially over the fact that he searched your trunk without legal consent.

Tvov
02-26-2012, 06:44
I am surprised they let you drive your car home, especially with the first officer's attitude. Around me, you would have had to arrange for a tow truck. Police rarely ever let anyone drive home with expired vehicle registration.

Bill Lumberg
02-26-2012, 06:45
You weren't legit (registration), you got pulled over. Cops did their job (I love how one talked to you with his eyes). Are you clear on how you could avoid this in the future? So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation.... Well tonight was different.

First off, my registration was expired; I deserved the ticket I received completely. I shouldn't have put off going to get my emissions done, but with my hectic work schedule and newborn I procrastinated. Either way, I deserved to be pulled over and ticketed, period.

That said...

My fiance and I we're out on our date night that we get maybe once every month. Her mother is kind enough to take the kids for us for free so we can atleast get 2-3 hours alone. We drove up to Gates pass to watch the city lights, then proceeded to town to get some coffee before heading back to the house.

I should have known better than to drive into downtown on a Saturday, oh well.

A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights. I pulled over and stopped within 10 seconds, and never removed my hands from the wheel. He approaches, says "Why were you and the passenger moving around and fidgeting???" My hands never left the wheel from the time he pulled behind me, and my Fiance had her hands in her lap the entire time. I said "We never moved officer?" I found this odd, his demeanor was aggressive from the get-go. "License and Registration." and the first thing out of my mouth is "Officer, just so you're aware I'm carrying a concealed weapon, here's my CCW permit." as I handed him my ID and CCW. He asked me where it was, and I said 1:00 Oclock, appendix carry. He looked at me like "Huh?" but I certainly wasn't going to point :p - I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. In AZ we have constitutional carry so I don't need a permit, nor did I need to make him aware of it out of respect. He gets on the radio and says something along the lines of "Yeah hes got a gun..."

Suddenly another officer pops up on the right side of the car which startled my fiance.


The first officer immediately got more aggravated and nervous, as if presenting my ccw was a threat. As I was looking through my paperwork for my insurance he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.

As I'm looking across the car, the other officer looks me in the eyes, with this kind of "I'm sorry." look and body language. He hadn't said anything the entire time - but seemed calm and collected the whole time.

The first officer told me to get back into the car - The 2nd officer started talking to us about what we should expect as far as court and the registration - he was VERY polite and respectful. Infact, I think if he wasn't there - this interaction would have been 20X worse. I wish I had the chance to thank him for treating me like a citizen and not a criminal.

So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated, and start to think that hes going to try and start searching my car. I ask "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??" The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave. Fine, I pop it. I get out, and goto the trunk. The first officer starts DIGGING through my trunk, looking under my baby stroller, shining his light around, SEARCHING! After about 40 seconds of searching and digging, He pulls out a camo hat from the service, puts my mag, knives, etc. Shows me my gun, that it's clear, and places it in the trunk and shuts it.

I get back in the car, he hands me the ticket, and I asked if his badge number was on the citation, he says yes and leaves.

I don't know who the second officer was, but I thank god he was there. I couldn't imagine how bad this stop would have been if he wasn't. I desperately wish I could have extended a thank you. I am so unbelievably upset right now - This whole interaction was absolutely unnecessary - I gave him no reason to act in this way and I'm so disappointed. I respect law enforcement, infact I look up to them - I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight. I would have thought living in one of the most gun friendly states in the US that this wouldn't happen. Bummer.

:upeyes:

alba666
02-26-2012, 07:02
Around here, one department has a lot of 6 hours off between end of one shift and start of next. It's not uncommon for officers to pull triples on this schedule.

Be thankful that you weren't in jail from a trumped-up charge so the cop could get some down time to fill out paperwork.


Real women have real bodies with lotsa curves so I can hug'em really tight and not get bruises!

redbrd
02-26-2012, 07:27
Lunch money victim, thinks a badge will replace a soft spine leftover from high school. Here is my question were is the the outrage over bullying went its a police officer. Its a shame because law enforcement is truly one of the admirable jobs to accept. Pay sucks and the crap they deal with is ridiculous. Sadly you have that 10% that have to compensate for something. Those are probably the ones who's Dad or Uncle got them the job. Rant done.
Glad its over. Hope you got the car registered or you are in for a long week.

RussP
02-26-2012, 08:27
Eric originally posted this in Cop Talk November 29, 2006. It applies to every GT forum, not just Cop Talk. Please abide by his policy. Folks, I did not create this forum to give people a place to ***** about cops, or to question the morality or legality of their practices. You might have a burning need to do so, but this is not the place for it.

I created this forum as a place for cops to talk shop and for non-cops to be able to interact with cops and hopefully create some common ground. If you do not like cops, or you are pissed because you got a ticket, or you want to know how to beat the ticket, or you don't like no-knock warrants or DUI checkpoints, do not post about it here. Period. I am sick to death of all of the bickering and all of the problems a few knuckleheads here (On both sides of the fence) keep causing. I want the problems to stop.

If you want to discuss legal/ethical issues of police practices or policies, do it in GT's Civil Liberties forum. That is what it was created for. From now on, any such discussion here will be closed or moved to that forum. There are a handful of people here who are obsessed with the topic and they are screwing things up here for everyone else.

Once again and for the record, I and my site are big fans of LEO's and we support them. You do not have to like them yourself, but you do have to treat them respectfully if you want to post on my site. On the other hand, the problems here are not one-sided. I expect EVERYONE to comport themselves in a considerate, respectful manner, if they wish to continue participating here. There is no excuse for bad behavior and many of you are in a job that has certainly taught you better.

This forum has been one of the most problematic on GT, but I still feel it can be an asset if the people that use it will help it live up to its potential. Ericdwalker84, congrats on the newborn. :thumbsup:

Just curious, how far past registration renewal were you? Yeah, emission tests are a pain.

I'd like to fill in what's to me a missing bit of information.
You said, My hands never left the wheel from the time he pulled behind me, and my Fiance had her hands in her lap the entire time. I said "We never moved officer?" I found this odd, his demeanor was aggressive from the get-go. "License and Registration." and the first thing out of my mouth is "Officer, just so you're aware I'm carrying a concealed weapon, here's my CCW permit." as I handed him my ID and CCW.
When and from where did you retrieve your CWP.

You go on to say,He gets on the radio and says something along the lines of "Yeah hes got a gun..."

Suddenly another officer pops up on the right side of the car which startled my fiance.

The first officer immediately got more aggravated and nervous, as if presenting my ccw was a threat. As I was looking through my paperwork for my insurance he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.You're no longer sitting with your hands on the wheel. You're looking through your paperwork. What was your reaction when your fiancée became startled?

Where was your paperwork while you're looking through it, when the second officer startled your fiancée?

:cool:

dwalker84
02-26-2012, 08:50
dwalker84, congrats on the newborn. :thumbsup:

Just curious, how far past registration renewal were you? Yeah, emission tests are a pain.

A month - My other vehicle was current - It's making odd noises so for safety reasons I took the other one.

I'd like to fill in what's to me a missing bit of information.
You said,When and from where did you retrieve your CWP.

You go on to say,You're no longer sitting with your hands on the wheel. You're looking through your paperwork. What was your reaction when your fiancée became startled?

Where was your paperwork while you're looking through it, when the second officer startled your fiancée?

:cool:

He asked me for my drivers license and registration, I got out my wallet from my back pocket, handed him my CCW and ID, as I was handing him the CCW I said I was carrying. My hands remained on the wheel until he asked for my papers. He wasn't alarmed until conceal carry came out of my mouth. In the future I'll make sure never to offer the information freely.

The paperwork was in my hands in front of me, as I was sifting though it, looking for my insurance. No fast movements.

As far as my fiance being startled, I still had my hands on the paperwork and didn't react, I just remember her saying something like "Ah, wow, I didn't see him."

dwalker84
02-26-2012, 09:02
You weren't legit (registration), you got pulled over. Cops did their job (I love how one talked to you with his eyes). Are you clear on how you could avoid this in the future?

Yes I wasn't legit, I said that, I realize that. The first cop did his job in an extremely unprofessional manner, period. The second officer was incredibly respectful, and I fully believe DE-escalated the situation - had it not been for him I would have been screwed. I wasn't aware that people's body language was not a form of communication, that is news to me - His interaction with us the entire stop was that of someone who was trying to calm the situation. I'm sorry but I bet you the majority of officers out there would have been embarrassed by this guy. He tried to pin us off as if we were hiding drugs from the very get-go, and dropped it immediately when I said no one was moving, if that's the kind of cop you want patrolling your streets I have his badge number, maybe you can request him to come protect your family. This is not typical officer behavior, I have had plenty of excellent interactions with police in Tucson.

As I said in my original post I completely deserved the ticket, and understand why I got pulled over (really guy?) That doesn't excuse the way he acted. Had it been you, you would have been livid, why? because it's wrong...

Bill Lumberg
02-26-2012, 09:11
I wouldn't have been livid. I may not have enjoyed the experience, but I wouldn't have projected my embarrassment on the person doing their job. But it's understandable that you didn't enjoy the interaction.

dwalker84
02-26-2012, 09:26
I wouldn't have been livid. I may not have enjoyed the experience, but I wouldn't have projected my embarrassment on the person doing their job. But it's understandable that you didn't enjoy the interaction.

So you would just 'not enjoy' being pulled out of your car, like a criminal, disarmed, and had your trunk illegally searched, because one officer in a bad mood doesn't like the fact that you carry? Really? Is it only acceptable to you because it happened to someone else, or are you really just that 'Zen'?

James Dean
02-26-2012, 09:32
If it were me i would not be upset. We are all grown up's here and we know how some police officers act. another reason and the main reason why I would not be upset is he let you drive home with an expired registration. if that was around here you would have been walking home and had a tow charge to pay as well.

dwalker84
02-26-2012, 09:39
If it were me i would not be upset. We are all grown up's here and we know how some police officers act. another reason and the main reason why I would not be upset is he let you drive home with an expired registration. if that was around here you would have been walking home and had a tow charge to pay as well.

They don't tow your car here for expired registration, only if you have a suspended license. He wasn't doing me any favors. I'm sure he would have loved to. It still doesn't give him the right to illegally search my car.

This guy would have acted the same had I been pulled over for a seatbelt, a blinker out, etc - It still doesn't make it okay.

I'm more shocked than anything else. For those that live in Arizona, carrying here is common place - this isn't California - the cops deal with CCW'ers and OC'ers regularly. Our officers are sworn to uphold the constitution, not crap on people's 4th amendment.

geoemery
02-26-2012, 09:47
Fourth amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

We often talk about 2a but often anti-gun LE violate 4a. An out-of-date registration does reach a level for a search. You need to fill the complain about the search.

RussP
02-26-2012, 09:49
This is the sequence of your actions?
He asked me for my drivers license and registration,


I got out my wallet from my back pocket,


handed him my CCW and ID,


as I was handing him the CCW I said I was carrying.


My hands remained on the wheel until he asked for my papers.


He wasn't alarmed until conceal carry came out of my mouth.
Usually, the sequence suggested by those who do advise is My hands remained on the wheel until he asked for my papers.


He asked me for my drivers license and registration,


I then advised him I was carrying.


He asked where the weapon was.


I told him 1:00 Oclock, appendix carry.And you'd go on from there...

See the difference? The hands stay on the steering wheel until everyone knows where the weapon is located.

kensteele
02-26-2012, 09:55
Some advice, you don't have to take it, but next time:

Have all your papers and details in order. I know you're not perfect but try to be.
Don't show your permit out of courtesy.
Don't have a discussion about firearms with the police.
Don't consent to a search and say so. If asked, the answer is No or I don't consent....not, "well, ...."
Don't speak to the police.

kensteele
02-26-2012, 09:56
Fourth amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

We often talk about 2a but often anti-gun LE violate 4a. An out-of-date registration does reach a level for a search. You need to fill the complain about the search.

He cannot. He gave him permission to go into his trunk.

The answer should have been No, I don't consent to a search of my vehicle or my trunk. anything short of that and you lose.

cysoto
02-26-2012, 10:11
Don't show your permit out of courtesy.
I am not saying that this was the intention of the OP but many CCW holders don't do this out of courtesy. They do so hoping that the fact that they have a CCW will be well received by the officer and they can drive away with a verbal warning instead of a well-deserved ticket.

If you don't have a "duty to inform" in your state, just STFU about it, sign your ticket, take your copy and drive away.

Keyhole
02-26-2012, 10:14
If you really think you were mistreated and your rights violated, go file a formal complaint, in person, with IA. By opening your trunk, maybe you gave implied consent to search, which you should have verbally rescinded. Either way, he has no right whatsoever to treat you with such a negative attitude as you described. I'm former LEO and I know plenty of badge-wearing wingnuts. If they don't get put in check every once in a while, they get worse. Sounds like he may have forgotten he's a public servant, who should function with professionalism in any situation.

RussP
02-26-2012, 10:18
Just curious, how far past registration renewal were you?He asked me for my drivers license and registration, I got out my wallet from my back pocket, handed him my CCW and ID, as I was handing him the CCW I said I was carrying. My hands remained on the wheel until he asked for my papers. He wasn't alarmed until conceal carry came out of my mouth. In the future I'll make sure never to offer the information freely.

The paperwork was in my hands in front of me, as I was sifting though it, looking for my insurance. No fast movements.

As far as my fiance being startled, I still had my hands on the paperwork and didn't react, I just remember her saying something like "Ah, wow, I didn't see him."How far out from renewal are you - a couple of weeks, a couple of months?

Ryobi
02-26-2012, 10:18
It's easier to deal with the mortal embarrassment of not having your registration current and getting pulled over if you pretend a grave injustice was committed (it wasn't) by the Police. If you think things were so bad, file a complaint in the real world. You'll need to do better than your original post. Nothing actionable there.

RussP
02-26-2012, 10:34
I wouldn't have been livid. I may not have enjoyed the experience, but I wouldn't have projected my embarrassment on the person doing their job. But it's understandable that you didn't enjoy the interaction.So you would just 'not enjoy' being pulled out of your car, like a criminal, disarmed, and had your trunk illegally searched, because one officer in a bad mood doesn't like the fact that you carry? Really? Is it only acceptable to you because it happened to someone else, or are you really just that 'Zen'?Let me ask you a couple of questions since none of us were there.So you would just 'not enjoy' being pulled out of your car,Did he really pull you out of your car? You say he told you to, and you got out of the car. like a criminal, disarmed,why didn't you tell you you are not a criminal and just remain in your car?and had your trunk illegally searched,Actually, you gave permission..."So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated, and start to think that hes going to try and start searching my car. I ask "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??" The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave. Fine, I pop it. "That's permission.because one officer in a bad mood doesn't like the fact that you carry?And how exactly do you know that is his personal belief? Really? Is it only acceptable to you because it happened to someone else, or are you really just that 'Zen'?With Bill Lumberg, it just might be...

James Dean
02-26-2012, 10:40
They don't tow your car here for expired registration, only if you have a suspended license. He wasn't doing me any favors. I'm sure he would have loved to. It still doesn't give him the right to illegally search my car.

This guy would have acted the same had I been pulled over for a seatbelt, a blinker out, etc - It still doesn't make it okay.

I'm more shocked than anything else. For those that live in Arizona, carrying here is common place - this isn't California - the cops deal with CCW'ers and OC'ers regularly. Our officers are sworn to uphold the constitution, not crap on people's 4th amendment.
No it doesn't give him the right to illegally search your car. When I took my CWFL class in Florida it was taught by a Sheriff's Officer. He even agreed some people should not be in law enforcement. We all run the risk of running into that guy. One thing he said was never to argue at a traffic stop. You will lose everytime. Call a lawyer and the next day go and file a complaint.

RussP
02-26-2012, 10:49
They don't tow your car here for expired registration, only if you have a suspended license. He wasn't doing me any favors. I'm sure he would have loved to.Again, how do you know that? Or is that just your projection?Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.It still doesn't give him the right to illegally search my car.Since you repeated this, are you now saying you did not pop the trunk to give him access?This guy would have acted the same had I been pulled over for a seatbelt, a blinker out, etc - It still doesn't make it okay.Again, you know how he would act under these other situations how?I'm more shocked than anything else. For those that live in Arizona, carrying here is common place - this isn't California - the cops deal with CCW'ers and OC'ers regularly. Our officers are sworn to uphold the constitution, not crap on people's 4th amendment.When are you going to file your complaint with TPD?

ChuteTheMall
02-26-2012, 10:50
Concealed means concealed. Don't talk to the police.

He gets license & registration upon demand, and you sign the ticket and leave, with his badge number. Don't talk to the police.

Bringing up your CCW wasn't legally required, and escalated the situation. Don't talk to the police.

3000fps
02-26-2012, 10:52
OP's Post

That is f-ing REDICULOUS!

I had an officer do the same thing to me before. I was a teenager in high school and I got pulled over for window tint. The officers acted the same exact way...

They spotted a baseball bat in my backseat and asked what it was for, I replied that it wasn't "for" anything.

They said that it can be classified as a weapon and I couldn't have it in the cab of my vehicle. He asked me to hand it to him.

He tells me he is going to do me a favor and put it in the trunk. I hand it to him and pop the trunk, HIM AND HIS BUDDY OFFICER PULLED OUT MY SPARE TIRED AND LOOKED UNDER IT AND RIPPED MY TRUNK LINING APART!!!!!!!!!

I didn't give them permission to search the vehicle, I learned a long time ago that I will NEVER let them put something in my trunk EVER. Nor even roll my window down enough for them to stick something inside.


Doing that I'll probably end up with something shoved in my gas cap.. :shakehead:

I respect LEO and i'm going to school to become an officer, and I just don't agree with that. Maybe I have a lot to learn at a young age but that is just plain BS.

NMGlocker
02-26-2012, 11:01
In the future I'll make sure never to offer the information freely.
At least you learned a valuable lesson.
Two lessons hopefully.
NEVER volunteer information that's not required by law.
NEVER voluntarily open your vehicle to a search.

When they asked for me to open the trunk I would have declined. He disarmed me, let him figure out how to give me my property back. I'm not going to "consent" to a search because that's the way he wants to return my property.

NMGlocker
02-26-2012, 11:06
Nothing actionable there.
I agree, nothing actionable.

But ticking off the good citizens is NEVER the proper course of action.
What comes around goes around and I'm sure the OP will treat every interaction with the police as adversarial in the future.
All because of one prick.

RussP
02-26-2012, 11:09
So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated,How much time passed between when you stopped and when you popped the trunk?

Bill Lumberg
02-26-2012, 11:24
I'm just glad they didn't know about your previous problems from OC at your apartment complex. You were right to inform- its better than you surprising them and risking lead poisoning or road rash. And they were right (by your description, anyway) to keep themselves safe while dealing with a person who was (by your description) armed, livid, and operating a motor vehicle without proper registration.

NMGlocker
02-26-2012, 11:32
I'm just glad they didn't know about your previous problems from OC at your apartment complex. You were right to inform- its better than you surprising them and risking lead poisoning or road rash. And they were right (by your description, anyway) to keep themselves safe while dealing with a person who was (by your description) armed, livid, and operating a motor vehicle without proper registration.
Your forum name and signature fit you perfectly.
"Did someone talk to you about that TPS report?"
-Bill Lumberg-
Mindless, self serving cog in the machine that regurgitates the company line.

gunowner1
02-26-2012, 11:35
Concealed means concealed. Don't talk to the police.

He gets license & registration upon demand, and you sign the ticket and leave, with his badge number. Don't talk to the police.

Bringing up your CCW wasn't legally required, and escalated the situation. Don't talk to the police.
Agreed.

AA#5
02-26-2012, 11:48
As expected & as is quite typical, we have the blind supporters of anything an LEO does (mostly from LEO's, LEO's friends, LEO's relatives.) Also expected, various flawed suggestions on how to make it better next time.

Re: Suggestions to not consent to a search/opening the trunk or whatever you want to call it: the plain truth is....as soon as you don't consent to anything a bully-type cop requests, you have challenged his authority (and his manhood, in his mind) and the situation will become much worse because that will give him the excuse he's looking for to escalate & be an even bigger bully.

Re: Don't inform the cop you're armed unless it's legally required in your state: Well, that's all well & good, but if your gun happens to print or show while you're reaching for ID, registration, wallet, etc. & you haven't informed the cop (who's probably already looking for weapons or signs of weapons), he might panic. Then, he'll use that as an excuse to really become abusive. Personally, I'd rather NOT give a power-hungry cop an excuse to draw his weapon & point it at me.

Besides, what happens when a cop asks the usual question, "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?" You say, "Yes, sir & I have a permit." The cop may then go ape ballistic, (as we've already seen) screaming, "Why didn't you tell me sooner.....do you know how many cops are shot during traffic stops....how dare you not warn me....."

AA#5
02-26-2012, 12:02
Maybe it was a desk jockey, who got out on patrol for once.

And he's ready to rid the world of its ills.

was the last name Fife?

Actually, I think he was just one of those people with the mindset: "Uzi's & other assault weapons are for drug dealers, drive-by shooters, mass murderers....."

A segment of the population thinks that way & cops are a segment of the population.

PrecisionRifleman
02-26-2012, 12:10
It only takes on a-hole cop to cast a bad outlook on all cops. Wuppity doo - your registration was out. Only an a-hole would make a big deal about that..

Bill Lumberg
02-26-2012, 12:18
The OP probably had his delta pledge pin on his uniform. He's lucky he didn't have to do stable duty. In all seriousness- he needs to call the ACLU. I am utterly incensed (Arabian night jasmine) that they didn't give him a pass all the way around. They should have looked the other way when they saw his tags were defunct, just on the off chance he might not like being pulled over. If they felt like they absolutely had to pull him over, they should have given him a warning, and a commendation on general principal. This simply cannot stand, sir. Nay, I say. It must be challenged. Forthwith and with great vigor.

josey88
02-26-2012, 12:27
I think that you don`t give CCW information if is not required by law . Unless you are asked directly : do you have a weapon with you ? don`t volunteer nothing. if you can avoid it, don`t be confrontational ... he tells you to get out of the car , you obey . He ask for your trunk to be searched , be my guest .. what do you care , you have nothing on it that would compromise you , anyway . Then, this asshold in uniform will go away and you will be on your way .

TBO
02-26-2012, 12:29
How out of date was the sticker?

Keyhole
02-26-2012, 12:31
He ask for your trunk to be searched , be my guest .. what do you care , you have nothing on it that would compromise you , anyway . Then, this asshold in uniform will go away and you will be on your way .

No. It should not have to work like that.

josey88
02-26-2012, 12:49
No. It should not have to work like that.
But it is .
You have to remember to always fight your fights with equal chance of success . If the adds are 95 to 0 against you , don`t fight or you will loose . Unfortunately , the cop has the badge and the power to abuse it ... Try to get a witness if possible and go , file a complain and go to court. Those complains count and when are a few of them , this cop will be in trouble .

hikerpaddler
02-26-2012, 12:50
Doesn't matter. It's still the policeman's fault. How out of date was the sticker?

Keyhole
02-26-2012, 13:09
But it is .
You have to remember to always fight your fights with equal chance of success . If the adds are 95 to 0 against you , don`t fight or you will loose . Unfortunately , the cop has the badge and the power to abuse it ... Try to get a witness if possible and go , file a complain and go to court. Those complains count and when are a few of them , this cop will be in trouble .

You should never give up your rights, even a little bit, just to appease a bully. That's not how we got where we are.

RussP
02-26-2012, 13:31
Eric originally posted this in Cop Talk November 29, 2006. It applies to every GT forum, not just Cop Talk. Please abide by his policy. Folks, I did not create this forum to give people a place to ***** about cops, or to question the morality or legality of their practices. You might have a burning need to do so, but this is not the place for it.

I created this forum as a place for cops to talk shop and for non-cops to be able to interact with cops and hopefully create some common ground. If you do not like cops, or you are pissed because you got a ticket, or you want to know how to beat the ticket, or you don't like no-knock warrants or DUI checkpoints, do not post about it here. Period. I am sick to death of all of the bickering and all of the problems a few knuckleheads here (On both sides of the fence) keep causing. I want the problems to stop.

If you want to discuss legal/ethical issues of police practices or policies, do it in GT's Civil Liberties forum. That is what it was created for. From now on, any such discussion here will be closed or moved to that forum. There are a handful of people here who are obsessed with the topic and they are screwing things up here for everyone else.

Once again and for the record, I and my site are big fans of LEO's and we support them. You do not have to like them yourself, but you do have to treat them respectfully if you want to post on my site. On the other hand, the problems here are not one-sided. I expect EVERYONE to comport themselves in a considerate, respectful manner, if they wish to continue participating here. There is no excuse for bad behavior and many of you are in a job that has certainly taught you better.

This forum has been one of the most problematic on GT, but I still feel it can be an asset if the people that use it will help it live up to its potential. EricAfter this post, if you choose not to follow Eric's wishes, you will receive infractions.

packsaddle
02-26-2012, 14:18
There are always three sides to every story: yours, his, and the truth.

Maybe there were legitimate safety concerns.

Maybe the cop was just an idiot.

Without all the facts from all parties involved, we will never know for sure.

Bill Lumberg
02-26-2012, 14:21
Very very true. But in this case, it's easy to get a pretty good idea. :thumbsup:

michael e
02-26-2012, 14:29
Only 2 times I have been pulled over since getting my CHL , both went fast and respectful.

SGT HATRED
02-26-2012, 14:39
Tagged

kensteele
02-26-2012, 14:52
As expected & as is quite typical, we have the blind supporters of anything an LEO does (mostly from LEO's, LEO's friends, LEO's relatives.) Also expected, various flawed suggestions on how to make it better next time.

Re: Suggestions to not consent to a search/opening the trunk or whatever you want to call it: the plain truth is....as soon as you don't consent to anything a bully-type cop requests, you have challenged his authority (and his manhood, in his mind) and the situation will become much worse because that will give him the excuse he's looking for to escalate & be an even bigger bully.

Re: Don't inform the cop you're armed unless it's legally required in your state: Well, that's all well & good, but if your gun happens to print or show while you're reaching for ID, registration, wallet, etc. & you haven't informed the cop (who's probably already looking for weapons or signs of weapons), he might panic. Then, he'll use that as an excuse to really become abusive. Personally, I'd rather NOT give a power-hungry cop an excuse to draw his weapon & point it at me.

Besides, what happens when a cop asks the usual question, "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?" You say, "Yes, sir & I have a permit." The cop may then go ape ballistic, (as we've already seen) screaming, "Why didn't you tell me sooner.....do you know how many cops are shot during traffic stops....how dare you not warn me....."

You're wrong.

ETA: Your advice is hardly applicable to anyone.

racer88
02-26-2012, 15:19
I am not saying that this was the intention of the OP but many CCW holders don't do this out of courtesy. They do so hoping that the fact that they have a CCW will be well received by the officer and they can drive away with a verbal warning instead of a well-deserved ticket.

If you don't have a "duty to inform" in your state, just STFU about it, sign your ticket, take your copy and drive away.

I think this comment is spot on. In my state, there is no legal duty to inform. I've been pulled over (rightfully for speeding) a few times. I've never informed.

I'd rather get the ticket and exchange ONLY information that is NECESSARY to the traffic stop. No more. No less.

I'm not going to inform for the purpose of hopefully finding a CCW-enthusiast officer who will "thank" me by giving me a warning. I'm just not taking that gamble that I might encounter quite the opposite. I'd rather pay the ticket.

Just me... YMMV.

racer88
02-26-2012, 15:31
He ask for your trunk to be searched , be my guest .. what do you care , you have nothing on it that would compromise you , anyway . .

REALLY bad advice. Ask any attorney. An attorney will tell you to NEVER consent to a search. That's not to mention your 4th Amendment protections. You may THINK you have nothing to hide. But, the reality is that you might and just don't know about it. What if your teen-aged kid's friend tossed his "roach" in there (unbeknownst to you, of course). What if there's an empty beer can on the floorboard of the back seat (that you didn't know about)?

Never, ever, EVER consent to a search of your car, home, or person. Politely decline. No argument. Just politely decline. Once you consent, you cannot defend yourself with the 4th Amendment.

Likewise... Once you TALK, you cannot retroactively claim the 5th Amendment. "Anything you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST you." Nothing you say can be used FOR you in court. It becomes "hearsay" if it's in your favor and will be disallowed in court.

IANAL.

James Dean
02-26-2012, 15:36
really bad advice. Ask any attorney. An attorney will tell you to never consent to a search. That's not to mention your 4th amendment protections. You may think you have nothing to hide. But, the reality is that you might and just don't know about it. What if your teen-aged kid's friend tossed his "roach" in there (unbeknownst to you, of course). What if there's an empty beer can on the floorboard of the back seat (that you didn't know about)?

Never, ever, ever consent to a search of your car, home, or person. Politely decline. No argument. Just politely decline. Once you consent, you cannot defend yourself with the 4th amendment.

Likewise... Once you talk, you cannot retroactively claim the 5th amendment. "anything you say can and will be used against you." nothing you say can be used for you in court. It becomes "hearsay" if it's in your favor and will be disallowed in court.

Ianal.
this!!!!

RussP
02-26-2012, 15:37
I am not saying that this was the intention of the OP but many CCW holders don't do this out of courtesy. They do so hoping that the fact that they have a CCW will be well received by the officer and they can drive away with a verbal warning instead of a well-deserved ticket.

If you don't have a "duty to inform" in your state, just STFU about it, sign your ticket, take your copy and drive away.I think this comment is spot on. In my state, there is no legal duty to inform. I've been pulled over (rightfully for speeding) a few times. I've never informed.

I'd rather get the ticket and exchange ONLY information that is NECESSARY to the traffic stop. No more. No less.

I'm not going to inform for the purpose of hopefully finding a CCW-enthusiast officer who will "thank" me by giving me a warning. I'm just not taking that gamble that I might encounter quite the opposite. I'd rather pay the ticket.

Just me... YMMV.I believe that may be true here...So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation.... Well tonight was different.

SouthernBoyVA
02-26-2012, 15:38
Several things. You should have recorded this encounter. You should never have opened your trunk since that invites him to search your trunk. You should report this encounter to his superior as soon as possible.

This sort of behavior on the part of LEO's is not only uncalled for, it is is unconscionable. Follow up on this and get a letter of complaint in his file.

pipedreams
02-26-2012, 15:53
Several things. You should have recorded this encounter. You should never have opened your trunk since that invites him to search your trunk. You should report this encounter to his superior as soon as possible.

This sort of behavior on the part of LEO's is not only uncalled for, it is is unconscionable. Follow up on this and get a letter of complaint in his file.
:agree:
In your letter I would also mention the second officer was quite polite and seemed almost embarrassed by the first officers behavior. Wanting to place your legal firearm in the trunk was nothing but a ruse to get you to open the trunk. He could have unloaded the firearm and placed it in your backseat if he felt the need or just handed it to you at the end of contact.

RussP
02-26-2012, 16:05
Several things. You should have recorded this encounter. You should never have opened your trunk since that invites him to search your trunk.Many people who carry, and I would believe many who do not, carry dedicated recording devices, not just telephones.You should report this encounter to his superior as soon as possible.That is how you find out what, if any, department policies were violated.This sort of behavior on the part of LEO's is not only uncalled for, it is is unconscionable. Follow up on this and get a letter of complaint in his file.What behavior would you report and why?

josey88
02-26-2012, 16:10
REALLY bad advice. Ask any attorney. An attorney will tell you to NEVER consent to a search. That's not to mention your 4th Amendment protections. You may THINK you have nothing to hide. But, the reality is that you might and just don't know about it. What if your teen-aged kid's friend tossed his "roach" in there (unbeknownst to you, of course). What if there's an empty beer can on the floorboard of the back seat (that you didn't know about)?

Never, ever, EVER consent to a search of your car, home, or person. Politely decline. No argument. Just politely decline. Once you consent, you cannot defend yourself with the 4th Amendment.

Likewise... Once you TALK, you cannot retroactively claim the 5th Amendment. "Anything you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST you." Nothing you say can be used FOR you in court. It becomes "hearsay" if it's in your favor and will be disallowed in court.

IANAL.


Well, since I don`t have any kids and I am the only one that drives my car and I do know exactly what is and isn`t inside my car , trunk included , I don`t give a rat ass if the policeman wants to look into it , specially if that would allow me to go on my way without any problems . Remember that we are here (supposedly) dealing with a cop full of its ability of imposing problems on you , (at least temporarily ) so you want to create no further motives for this asshold to infringe on you .
I you said no , I don`t consent to a search , this guy would likely think that you have a heroin shipment on your trunk . I go back to my previous statement : don`t fight the fight that you know you are likely to loose ... try to obtain a witness (your girlfriend, in this particular case) and go to file a complain . Go to court , win the complain and the best of it is that it will stay on this guy`s record . With a few of those complains added to this same asshold , he will be in real trouble .
I know all of it about the 4th amendment , etc etc , but the street is full of people that make their main purpose to make life miserable for their fellow citizens , specially if one of those people has a police badge .
We all have had encounters with extremists ... I remember many years ago being stopped and given a ticket on my semi-rig (I was a professional truck/bus driver for 36 years) for 2 miles over the speed limit of 35 miles/hour. That happened in New Jersey . I remember telling the guy that he would likely get a commendation for such a heroic act ... but that was all I said . Took the ticket to court and explained that probable cause was the speedometer of the truck was not too accurate and I won . The judge ridiculized the cop for giving him work .

racer88
02-26-2012, 16:22
:agree:
Wanting to place your legal firearm in the trunk was nothing but a ruse to get you to open the trunk. He could have unloaded the firearm and placed it in your backseat if he felt the need or just handed it to you at the end of contact.

Except that gives the officer permission to search the inside of your car. I'd refuse either location. I'm not opening ANY part of my car. It's up to the officer how he or she wants to proceed in returning my property. But, it won't be by opening any part of my vehicle.

Jeff82
02-26-2012, 16:32
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?

racer88
02-26-2012, 16:34
Well, since I don`t have any kids and I am the only one that drives my car and I do know exactly what is and isn`t inside my car , trunk included , I don`t give a rat ass if the policeman wants to look into it , specially if that would allow me to go on my way without any problems .

Actually it doesn't matter if you have kids. It was an example to prove that you DON'T know if you have "something to hide" or not. You may not give a rat's ass, but you are SURRENDERING your RIGHTS. And, you DON'T KNOW if it will "allow you to go on your way without any problems." An attorney would laugh at the notion. Never ever give up your Constitutional rights, no matter whether you THINK you have "nothing to hide."

Remember that we are here (supposedly) dealing with a cop full of its ability of imposing problems on you , (at least temporarily ) so you want to create no further motives for this asshold to infringe on you . I'm willing to assert my rights and get arrested... and then assert them again. It's a matter of principle and what's RIGHT. And, then I will also assert my ability to seek rightful compensation for those infringements.

I you said no , I don`t consent to a search , this guy would likely think that you have a heroin shipment on your trunk . Then you really don't understand the 4th Amendment. The officer MUST be able to PROVE reasonable suspicion / probable cause (to search without a warrant). I have absolutely no concern nor any control over what "this guy would likely think." He can think whatever he wants about me. He'll need to be able to back it up.


I go back to my previous statement : don`t fight the fight that you know you are likely to loose ... try to obtain a witness (your girlfriend, in this particular case) and go to file a complain . Go to court , win the complain and the best of it is that it will stay on this guy`s record . With a few of those complains added to this same asshold , he will be in real trouble . You will NOT be able to do that if and when the officer finds something incriminating and you GAVE PERMISSION for the search without a warrant. Now you're REALLY screwed. But, if I don't give permission, it's a fight they will LOSE (not loose).

I know all of it about the 4th amendment , etc etc , but the street is full of people that make their main purpose to make life miserable for their fellow citizens , specially if one of those people has a police badge .

My hallucination is that you don't really know about the 4th Amendment. :whistling: Or perhaps you're so convinced of your invincibility (and innocence - nothing to hide) that you're willing to gamble your freedoms away. I'm not... and I have absolutely nothing to hide... I'm as "clean" as they come. But, no way will I acquiesce to an officer's unlawful demands and surrender my rights voluntarily. But, I'm just weird that way. :wavey:

pipedreams
02-26-2012, 16:35
Except that gives the officer permission to search the inside of your car. I'd refuse either location. I'm not opening ANY part of my car. It's up to the officer how he or she wants to proceed in returning my property. But, it won't be by opening any part of my vehicle.
Your right and that is why the office should just hand it back to you rather than find a need to invade your space. Actually there was no reason to take the firearm in the first place.

racer88
02-26-2012, 16:36
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?

Not true in Florida. They have no idea about it. Our CCWs are not connected to our drivers license in any way. Totally separate departments.

racer88
02-26-2012, 16:38
Your right and that is why the office should just hand it back to you rather than find a need to invade your space. Actually there was no reason to take the firearm in the first place.

Agree there! :cheers:

NMGlocker
02-26-2012, 16:46
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?
Nope.
If I'm not required by law to disclose, I'm not going to disclose.
If I'm not breaking the law he can pound sand.
Shut up and write the ticket, I'll shut up and sign next to the X.

racer88
02-26-2012, 16:53
Nope.
If I'm not required by law to disclose, I'm not going to disclose.
If I'm not breaking the law he can pound sand.
Shut up and write the ticket, I'll shut up and sign next to the X.

Exactomundo. Nothing more. Nothing less. Keep it professional and polite on both sides. It's just business.

kensteele
02-26-2012, 17:04
Well, since I don`t have any kids and I am the only one that drives my car and I do know exactly what is and isn`t inside my car , trunk included , I don`t give a rat ass if the policeman wants to look into it , specially if that would allow me to go on my way without any problems . Remember that we are here (supposedly) dealing with a cop full of its ability of imposing problems on you , (at least temporarily ) so you want to create no further motives for this asshold to infringe on you .
I you said no , I don`t consent to a search , this guy would likely think that you have a heroin shipment on your trunk . I go back to my previous statement : don`t fight the fight that you know you are likely to loose ... try to obtain a witness (your girlfriend, in this particular case) and go to file a complain . Go to court , win the complain and the best of it is that it will stay on this guy`s record . With a few of those complains added to this same asshold , he will be in real trouble .
I know all of it about the 4th amendment , etc etc , but the street is full of people that make their main purpose to make life miserable for their fellow citizens , specially if one of those people has a police badge .
We all have had encounters with extremists ... I remember many years ago being stopped and given a ticket on my semi-rig (I was a professional truck/bus driver for 36 years) for 2 miles over the speed limit of 35 miles/hour. That happened in New Jersey . I remember telling the guy that he would likely get a commendation for such a heroic act ... but that was all I said . Took the ticket to court and explained that probable cause was the speedometer of the truck was not too accurate and I won . The judge ridiculized the cop for giving him work .

Folks, josey is correct. Despite his advanced years, clearly he is no longer capable of defending himself using the rights afforded to him. Or he has found no real use for those rights over the years and frankly has decided to abandon them. The rights are there but they don't protect you unless you protect them. If you don't know your own rights or don't know how to properly care for them or prevent their abuse, they simply won't work for you. It really might be the case that rights simply don't work for josey and he if something bad happens, he is simply a victim of circumstances or "whatever happens happens" or "God-willing" or that's how the chips fall, etc. Millions of people are exactly like that. It's no surprise.

So this might be the case with josey. He may not know how to handle himself when he contacts the police, he may only know how to "cooperate" and "tell the truth." Based on his paragraph, I think he is scared of the police and what they might do him if he "exercises" his right. Maybe he tried to "exercise" his rights once before and it came back to bite him....won't try that anymore. Rights don't come with a set of brass ones, you have to develop those on your own. Anytime someone says their "silence" might make the officer think you a criminal so you should go ahead and talk has either been watching too many movies or is too chicken **** to understand what America is all about.

His own statements appear to suggest he thinks he is perfect and "knows" everything and is totally in control of his surroundings and if that's truly the case, he doesn't need the rights and those rights weren't meant for him in the first place.

Honestly, the police love him. :rofl:

ChuteTheMall
02-26-2012, 17:28
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?

Yes, I still wouldn't bring it up since it's not required by law.

I know that he knows, and he knows that I know that he knows.
:headscratch:

So the fact that I have a CHP is not relevant to the expired registration, and neither are the contents of my trunk.

Just the routine paperwork, nothing more.

racer88
02-26-2012, 17:47
Folks, josey is correct. Despite his advanced years, clearly he is no longer capable of defending himself using the rights afforded to him. Or he has found no real use for those rights over the years and frankly has decided to abandon them. The rights are there but they don't protect you unless you protect them. If you don't know your own rights or don't know how to properly care for them or prevent their abuse, they simply won't work for you. It really might be the case that rights simply don't work for josey and he if something bad happens, he is simply a victim of circumstances or "whatever happens happens" or "God-willing" or that's how the chips fall, etc. Millions of people are exactly like that. It's no surprise.

So this might be the case with josey. He may not know how to handle himself when he contacts the police, he may only know how to "cooperate" and "tell the truth." Based on his paragraph, I think he is scared of the police and what they might do him if he "exercises" his right. Maybe he tried to "exercise" his rights once before and it came back to bite him....won't try that anymore. Rights don't come with a set of brass ones, you have to develop those on your own. Anytime someone says their "silence" might make the officer think you a criminal so you should go ahead and talk has either been watching too many movies or is too chicken **** to understand what America is all about.

His own statements appear to suggest he thinks he is perfect and "knows" everything and is totally in control of his surroundings and if that's truly the case, he doesn't need the rights and those rights weren't meant for him in the first place.

Honestly, the police love him. :rofl:

haha... what I was trying to say... admittedly trying to be more diplomatic. But, I like your blunt version better! :rock:

Bruce M
02-26-2012, 18:33
It would be interesting to know for how long the registration was expired. Also information on the area where the stop was made might be instructive.

I am also curious as to the general consensus as to whether or not the police have the authority to order someone out of an automobile during a traffic stop; that is presuming the officer merely ordered the driver out as opposed to physically removing him (and I'm guessing it is the former.) Actually the consensus seems clear, but I guess the better question is that consensus correct? If we had answers to these questions, perhaps we might be able to help decide better if the officer violated policy. If in fact he did not violate policy regarding the tactics of the stop was he rude? Did he curse?
If not, then maybe the correct response might be to attempt to further legislation that specifically prohibits officers from ordering someone out of a vehicle; of course there might be some issues that could arise from that, too.

racer88
02-26-2012, 18:36
It would be interesting to know for how long the registration was expired. Also information on the area where the stop was made might be instructive.

I am also curious as to the general consensus as to whether or not the police have the authority to order someone out of an automobile during a traffic stop; that is presuming the officer merely ordered the driver out as opposed to physically removing him (and I'm guessing it is the former.) Actually the consensus seems clear, but I guess the better question is that consensus correct? If we had answers to these questions, perhaps we might be able to help decide better if the officer violated policy. If in fact he did not violate policy regarding the tactics of the stop was he rude? Did he curse?
If not, then maybe the correct response might be to attempt to further legislation that specifically prohibits officers from ordering someone out of a vehicle; of course there might be some issues that could arise from that, too.

My understanding is that they can order you to exit the car. Prior to exiting the car is when I WOULD inform the officer of CCW.

But, you can close and lock the door behind you. They cannot search the car without a warrant or probable cause.

NMG26
02-26-2012, 18:41
I am also curious as to the general consensus as to whether or not the police have the authority to order someone out of an automobile during a traffic stop; .

In my state an officer has can disarm you, for his own safety. You have to be out of the vehicle for this.

I was disarmed at a traffic stop, in the Texas Pan, once.

NM, TX, AZ, Co, seem to have similar laws.

SouthernBoyVA
02-26-2012, 19:57
What behavior would you report and why?

The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

Yes I know that one can be ordered out of the car, but there has to be a reason for this to take place. Can't say anything about the trunk search because the OP invited that by opening his trunk. He should have refused to do this just like he should have closed the windows and locked the car when he exited.

These complaints may not go farther than the call to his superior. But if this officer has this sort of attitude, you can bet it will happen again and if several more calls come in, his superior will hopefully see a pattern.

Dukeboy01
02-26-2012, 20:46
Why do people insist on borrowing trouble? Renew your tags, fix your broken tail lights, remove your illegal tint, and quit making excuses.

RussP
02-27-2012, 04:57
What behavior would you report and why?The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

Yes I know that one can be ordered out of the car, but there has to be a reason for this to take place. Can't say anything about the trunk search because the OP invited that by opening his trunk. He should have refused to do this just like he should have closed the windows and locked the car when he exited.

These complaints may not go farther than the call to his superior. But if this officer has this sort of attitude, you can bet it will happen again and if several more calls come in, his superior will hopefully see a pattern.Okay...
Belligerent behavior


General unprofessional attitude


Officer ordered him out of the car


Officer frisked him


Officer disarmed him


Anything else?

dwalker84, are you going to file a complaint?

Will you have your wife sign it also, as a witness?

Bruce M
02-27-2012, 05:58
...
A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights.

... I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. ...
I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. ....]



I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?

How many other times have you been stopped?

Did the officer order you to put your hands on the roof and to spread your legs or did you do that on your own?


The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

....

I am curious as to where we got to "belligerent?" Was he hostile or combative?

And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?

RussP
02-27-2012, 12:46
I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?

How many other times have you been stopped?Good questions.Did the officer order you to put your hands on the roof and to spread your legs or did you do that on your own?... he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. Looks like in the original post he initiated his actions.I am curious as to where we got to "belligerent?" Was he hostile or combative?I believe "aggressive, aggravated and nervous" were the words dwalker84 used.And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?More good questions.

owl6roll
02-27-2012, 16:10
I have a buddy that will cite you for every thing he can. I've seen 8 UTCs on one stop. Some cops are butts, noting but!

Sam Spade
02-27-2012, 17:24
Random thoughts...Yes, the car could have been towed. Towing is *mandatory* for suspended driver's licenses, but the cops have no obligation to allow an unregistered vehicle on the road. Score that as a break for the OP.

The cop doesn't need a reason to order the driver (or the passenger) out of the car. That he believes it's the best course of action for his safety is good enough.

The frisk and disarm were proper. The cop needs an articuable reason that you're armed and dangerous. Armed is a given. Dangerous comes not only from a livid driver, but also from the environment, time of day and so on. Downtown/weekend/night time...we're there, even without considering a single thing about OP's behavior.

Search of the trunk: Nowhere in the post does the OP tell the searching officer to stop. We have: "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??"...Fine I pop it. Sorry, I'm not hearing you invoke your rights, and your actions can be read as a consent to entry. Score this one as a failure on the OP's part.

Being treated as a criminal: Nope. Not even close.

And the general loss of (fill in the blank) for all LE based on one episode. I'd suggest you re-examine things. Pretty shallow (fill in the blank) if this destroys a lifetime of observation and experience, especially given that there were just as many examples of "good" as "bad" cops present. You didn't get harmed in any way, it's possible that your anger amplifed the feedback loop, and most of your complaint centers around the cop's unquantifiable attitude. How much of this stems from the fact that your CCW didn't get you out of a ticket as it has before?

James Dean
02-27-2012, 17:41
Random thoughts...Yes, the car could have been towed. Towing is *mandatory* for suspended driver's licenses, but the cops have no obligation to allow an unregistered vehicle on the road. Score that as a break for the OP.

The cop doesn't need a reason to order the driver (or the passenger) out of the car. That he believes it's the best course of action for his safety is good enough.

The frisk and disarm were proper. The cop needs an articuable reason that you're armed and dangerous. Armed is a given. Dangerous comes not only from a livid driver, but also from the environment, time of day and so on. Downtown/weekend/night time...we're there, even without considering a single thing about OP's behavior.

Search of the trunk: Nowhere in the post does the OP tell the searching officer to stop. We have: "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??"...Fine I pop it. Sorry, I'm not hearing you invoke your rights, and your actions can be read as a consent to entry. Score this one as a failure on the OP's part.

Being treated as a criminal: Nope. Not even close.

And the general loss of (fill in the blank) for all LE based on one episode. I'd suggest you re-examine things. Pretty shallow (fill in the blank) if this destroys a lifetime of observation and experience, especially given that there were just as many examples of "good" as "bad" cops present. You didn't get harmed in any way, it's possible that your anger amplifed the feedback loop, and most of your complaint centers around the cop's unquantifiable attitude. How much of this stems from the fact that your CCW didn't get you out of a ticket as it has before?
As always I enjoy reading your posts. very good insight.

Southswede
02-27-2012, 18:55
So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying -

]

I stopped reading after this........

AA#5
02-27-2012, 19:02
You're wrong.

ETA: Your advice is hardly applicable to anyone.

:rofl: Ahh, a man of few words. TWO. "You're wrong."

Few words = nothing constructive to say. :supergrin:

You could have said something honest like:
"Of course you're correct, but I don't like the sound of it." :supergrin:

MinnesnowtaWild
02-28-2012, 01:48
It's threads like this that convince me to maybe just keep it to myself that I am carrying if I ever get pulled over (not required in Minnesota)

Glockworks
02-28-2012, 03:34
So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation.... Well tonight was different.

First off, my registration was expired; I deserved the ticket I received completely. I shouldn't have put off going to get my emissions done, but with my hectic work schedule and newborn I procrastinated. Either way, I deserved to be pulled over and ticketed, period.

That said...

My fiance and I we're out on our date night that we get maybe once every month. Her mother is kind enough to take the kids for us for free so we can atleast get 2-3 hours alone. We drove up to Gates pass to watch the city lights, then proceeded to town to get some coffee before heading back to the house.

I should have known better than to drive into downtown on a Saturday, oh well.

A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights. I pulled over and stopped within 10 seconds, and never removed my hands from the wheel. He approaches, says "Why were you and the passenger moving around and fidgeting???" My hands never left the wheel from the time he pulled behind me, and my Fiance had her hands in her lap the entire time. I said "We never moved officer?" I found this odd, his demeanor was aggressive from the get-go. "License and Registration." and the first thing out of my mouth is "Officer, just so you're aware I'm carrying a concealed weapon, here's my CCW permit." as I handed him my ID and CCW. He asked me where it was, and I said 1:00 Oclock, appendix carry. He looked at me like "Huh?" but I certainly wasn't going to point :p - I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. In AZ we have constitutional carry so I don't need a permit, nor did I need to make him aware of it out of respect. He gets on the radio and says something along the lines of "Yeah hes got a gun..."

Suddenly another officer pops up on the right side of the car which startled my fiance.


The first officer immediately got more aggravated and nervous, as if presenting my ccw was a threat. As I was looking through my paperwork for my insurance he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.

As I'm looking across the car, the other officer looks me in the eyes, with this kind of "I'm sorry." look and body language. He hadn't said anything the entire time - but seemed calm and collected the whole time.

The first officer told me to get back into the car - The 2nd officer started talking to us about what we should expect as far as court and the registration - he was VERY polite and respectful. Infact, I think if he wasn't there - this interaction would have been 20X worse. I wish I had the chance to thank him for treating me like a citizen and not a criminal.

So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated, and start to think that hes going to try and start searching my car. I ask "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??" The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave. Fine, I pop it. I get out, and goto the trunk. The first officer starts DIGGING through my trunk, looking under my baby stroller, shining his light around, SEARCHING! After about 40 seconds of searching and digging, He pulls out a camo hat from the service, puts my mag, knives, etc. Shows me my gun, that it's clear, and places it in the trunk and shuts it.

I get back in the car, he hands me the ticket, and I asked if his badge number was on the citation, he says yes and leaves.

I don't know who the second officer was, but I thank god he was there. I couldn't imagine how bad this stop would have been if he wasn't. I desperately wish I could have extended a thank you. I am so unbelievably upset right now - This whole interaction was absolutely unnecessary - I gave him no reason to act in this way and I'm so disappointed. I respect law enforcement, infact I look up to them - I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight. I would have thought living in one of the most gun friendly states in the US that this wouldn't happen. Bummer.

:upeyes:

[Moderator Note - 02-26-2012 at 15:35: Please read post #48 before posting in this thread.]
Wait a minute, your title of this thread paints a very wide brush. You should use a smaller brush (to extend this metaphor) and say a Tucson policeman, not implicating the whole police force in Tucson. According to you, theto ther policeman was perfect in this instance. And the motorcycle cop was just an overbearing butt head who might need some breath freshener so to speak. :)

Farmalljon
02-28-2012, 06:49
It's threads like this that convince me to maybe just keep it to myself that I am carrying if I ever get pulled over (not required in Minnesota)

In Maine, you are NOT required to inform an officer that you are carrying during a traffic stop.

I was actually told the following when I asked a sherrif's deputy whether or not I should inform an officer during a traffic stop. He said: "From MY point of view, I want to know immediately if you are carrying, so yes, please inform me if you are carrying. From YOUR point of view, keep your mouth closed unless asked by the officer. If you get a 20 year old officer, all gung-ho, who just graduated from the police academy last month, you are liable to find yourself face down on the ground, in hand-cuffs, while he calms himself down."

I thanked him for his candid answer.

RussP
02-28-2012, 07:00
Wait a minute, your title of this thread paints a very wide brush. You should use a smaller brush (to extend this metaphor) and say a Tucson policeman, not implicating the whole police force in Tucson. According to you, theto ther policeman was perfect in this instance. And the motorcycle cop was just an overbearing butt head who might need some breath freshener so to speak. :)Oh, the title is just the beginning...I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight.One officer = all police...

Unfortunately, some people form that opinion after one bad contact, completely discounting all the positive encounters before.So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation....

AA#5
02-28-2012, 10:29
It's threads like this that convince me to maybe just keep it to myself that I am carrying if I ever get pulled over (not required in Minnesota)

I don't disagree with that, but.....how would you answer the typical cop's question, "Are there any weapons in the vehicle?"

Glock+2
02-28-2012, 10:39
I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.

Your on a date, have a carry w/extra mags on your waist, 2 knives.....Huh, I always figured if I needed that much, could be a hell of a fight.

Steve50
02-28-2012, 11:15
Your are on a date, have a carry w/extra mags on your waste, 2 knives.....Huh, I always figured if I needed that much, could be a hell of a fight.

sometimes dates can go bad :supergrin:

poodleplumber
02-28-2012, 13:23
Nowhere in the post does the OP tell the searching officer to stop. We have: "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??"...Fine I pop it. Sorry, I'm not hearing you invoke your rights, and your actions can be read as a consent to entry. Score this one as a failure on the OP's part.

Does this:

The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave.

make any difference? Many on here have more legal expertise than me but it seems that his consent was to have his property placed in his trunk rather than to having his trunk searched. I wonder then if the search would have been legal. If popping the trunk release is consenting to a search, then is opening the door to a car also consenting to a search of the passenger compartment? How about answering the door at home? Do you have to verbally object to these searches as well?

I honestly haven't been in such situations, so I would appreciate knowing.

MoneyMaker
02-28-2012, 13:33
nobody on this site will back you up dwalker84,they are all higher in there place on these forums,They only go with the view of long time mebers and moderators.You came to the wrong place to vent!

TBO
02-28-2012, 14:16
The role of a true friend is often to tell you what you need to hear, not necessarily what you want to hear.

RussP
02-28-2012, 15:00
nobody on this site will back you up dwalker84,they are all higher in there place on these forums,They only go with the view of long time mebers and moderators.You came to the wrong place to vent!The role of a true friend is often to tell you what you need to hear, not necessarily what you want to hear.Haven't you been on the receiving end of a couple of those conversations from me, TBO?

Bruce M
02-28-2012, 15:19
Does this:



make any difference? Many on here have more legal expertise than me but it seems that his consent was to have his property placed in his trunk rather than to having his trunk searched. I wonder then if the search would have been legal. If popping the trunk release is consenting to a search, then is opening the door to a car also consenting to a search of the passenger compartment? How about answering the door at home? Do you have to verbally object to these searches as well?

I honestly haven't been in such situations, so I would appreciate knowing.


I would suggest the first few posts in this thread may be instructive http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994145

I would try to paraphrase it but I suspect I would massacre the message and change the nuances so much as to be totally incorrect. Mr. Spade has done a great job of explaining some of these ideas. I will attempt this much - in the past the Supreme Court seems to have been very aware of safety issues for officers and seems to have given them a fairly wide latitude to do things to protect themselves that seem intrusive to citizens. And when some evidence of crime is discovered as a result of an officer doing something to enhance his safety, the Court has often allowed it to be entered into evidence.

TBO
02-28-2012, 15:21
Haven't you been on the receiving end of a couple of those conversations from me, TBO?
Yes Sir.

Bruce M
03-01-2012, 06:27
Good questions....More good questions.


Thanks, but oddly still no answers.

RussP
03-01-2012, 06:59
I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?
Good questions....
And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?More good questions.

Thanks, but oddly still no answers.Hopefully he'll return and answer these and other unanwered questions...

The second set of questions, while we might look to a LEO for answers, it is important to find out how dwalker84 understands those points.

crash09
03-01-2012, 08:00
How much of this stems from the fact that your CCW didn't get you out of a ticket as it has before?

That was the first thing that came to mind when I started reading this thread...

Sam Spade
03-01-2012, 09:41
And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?

No, we don't. Sometimes it's good relations, sometimes it only invites an argument. (Remember, this was posted WRT the frisk and order to step out of the car.)

Explaining the traffic violation is different. At the least, it'll appear on the ticket. All departments I know encourage the officer to reveal that up front.

RussP
03-01-2012, 12:58
dwalker84, I have a good friend with Tucson PD. He just told me they have not had motor units on the streets at night for over a year now because of budget cuts. They are only out during the day.

Southswede
03-01-2012, 15:03
dwalker84, I have a good friend with Tucson PD. He just told me they have not had motor units on the streets at night for over a year now because of budget cuts. They are only out during the day.

dwalker84 it seems there is the implication you are a liar. Your lack of response confirms this implication.....

RussP
03-01-2012, 19:35
dwalker84, I have a good friend with Tucson PD. He just told me they have not had motor units on the streets at night for over a year now because of budget cuts. They are only out during the day.
dwalker84 it seems there is the implication you are a liar. Your lack of response confirms this implication.....No, I'm not implying anything, just stating the fact as it was given to me.

If you look at dwalker's posting history, you'll see that there are times when he's gone a few days without logging in on GT. Do not read too much into his absence. He's got a lot more going on in his life than Glock Talk.

MinnesnowtaWild
03-02-2012, 01:58
I don't disagree with that, but.....how would you answer the typical cop's question, "Are there any weapons in the vehicle?"

I would answer yes, because I am required to in Minnesota. If they don't ask, I don't tell.

F_G
03-02-2012, 08:50
Unless I missed it, was the question ever answered as to how long the registration was expired?

birda40
03-02-2012, 09:11
Why the length of experiation being questioned one day , 30 days , if he was stopped prior wouldn't there be a warning ticket? Not trying to start an argument.

SCmasterblaster
03-02-2012, 09:22
I am glad that the LEO didn't have an ND with your G17. Whew!!!

Bruce M
03-02-2012, 11:44
Why the length of experiation being questioned one day , 30 days , if he was stopped prior wouldn't there be a warning ticket? Not trying to start an argument.


I am not familiar with AZ laws but here expired for only a short time is a noncriminal infraction but expired for a longer time increases the issue to a criminal traffic offense, specifically a misdemeanor. My opinion is that the amount of time passed between the expiration and the offense can be used to examine someone's decision making process. Stopped on Sunday when the registration expired at midnight on Saturday night, to me, does not show a flagrant disregard, while driving on a six month expired registration with no insurance and a suspended driver's license peaks some interest.

AA#5
03-02-2012, 11:58
I am glad that the LEO didn't have an ND with your G17. Whew!!!

That's because both the LEO and the OP were professional enough to handle a Glock.

repo4sale
03-02-2012, 12:43
So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation.... Well tonight was different.

First off, my registration was expired; I deserved the ticket I received completely. I shouldn't have put off going to get my emissions done, but with my hectic work schedule and newborn I procrastinated. Either way, I deserved to be pulled over and ticketed, period.

That said...

My fiance and I we're out on our date night that we get maybe once every month. Her mother is kind enough to take the kids for us for free so we can atleast get 2-3 hours alone. We drove up to Gates pass to watch the city lights, then proceeded to town to get some coffee before heading back to the house.

I should have known better than to drive into downtown on a Saturday, oh well.

A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights. I pulled over and stopped within 10 seconds, and never removed my hands from the wheel. He approaches, says "Why were you and the passenger moving around and fidgeting???" My hands never left the wheel from the time he pulled behind me, and my Fiance had her hands in her lap the entire time. I said "We never moved officer?" I found this odd, his demeanor was aggressive from the get-go. "License and Registration." and the first thing out of my mouth is "Officer, just so you're aware I'm carrying a concealed weapon, here's my CCW permit." as I handed him my ID and CCW. He asked me where it was, and I said 1:00 Oclock, appendix carry. He looked at me like "Huh?" but I certainly wasn't going to point :p - I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. In AZ we have constitutional carry so I don't need a permit, nor did I need to make him aware of it out of respect. He gets on the radio and says something along the lines of "Yeah hes got a gun..."

Suddenly another officer pops up on the right side of the car which startled my fiance.


The first officer immediately got more aggravated and nervous, as if presenting my ccw was a threat. As I was looking through my paperwork for my insurance he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.

As I'm looking across the car, the other officer looks me in the eyes, with this kind of "I'm sorry." look and body language. He hadn't said anything the entire time - but seemed calm and collected the whole time.

The first officer told me to get back into the car - The 2nd officer started talking to us about what we should expect as far as court and the registration - he was VERY polite and respectful. Infact, I think if he wasn't there - this interaction would have been 20X worse. I wish I had the chance to thank him for treating me like a citizen and not a criminal.

So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated, and start to think that hes going to try and start searching my car. I ask "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??" The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave. Fine, I pop it. I get out, and goto the trunk. The first officer starts DIGGING through my trunk, looking under my baby stroller, shining his light around, SEARCHING! After about 40 seconds of searching and digging, He pulls out a camo hat from the service, puts my mag, knives, etc. Shows me my gun, that it's clear, and places it in the trunk and shuts it.

I get back in the car, he hands me the ticket, and I asked if his badge number was on the citation, he says yes and leaves.

I don't know who the second officer was, but I thank god he was there. I couldn't imagine how bad this stop would have been if he wasn't. I desperately wish I could have extended a thank you. I am so unbelievably upset right now - This whole interaction was absolutely unnecessary - I gave him no reason to act in this way and I'm so disappointed. I respect law enforcement, infact I look up to them - I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight. I would have thought living in one of the most gun friendly states in the US that this wouldn't happen. Bummer.

:upeyes:

[Moderator Note - 02-26-2012 at 15:35: Please read post #48 before posting in this thread.]

Sorry about your BAD DAD caused by HIS BAD DAY!

SpringerTGO
03-02-2012, 13:18
After reading the OP's first paragraph, I have to wonder. Seriously, how many times has he been pulled over??? I'm not exactly a slow driver, and I ride sport bikes all summer, but I can't speak with anywhere near the OP's authority about being pulled over.

Based on his experience, maybe he has reason to complain. Because he's been pulled over more than anyone I know. Then again, maybe the OP should change his driving habits and register his vehicles. I doubt many people will argue, that if you are getting pulled over often for actual infractions, you need an attitude adjustment.

RussP
03-02-2012, 13:47
After reading the OP's first paragraph, I have to wonder. Seriously, how many times has he been pulled over??? I'm not exactly a slow driver, and I ride sport bikes all summer, but I can't speak with anywhere near the OP's authority about being pulled over.

Based on his experience, maybe he has reason to complain. Because he's been pulled over more than anyone I know. Then again, maybe the OP should change his driving habits and register his vehicles. I doubt many people will argue, that if you are getting pulled over often for actual infractions, you need an attitude adjustment.You read the first paragraph and formed your opinion?

Did you read his previous posts in July 2011 about his driving history, his experiences with law enforcement? You might want to do that...:cool:

kat1950
03-02-2012, 15:40
Properly going through a sugar rush from all the donuts he stuffed in his face.

Patchman
03-02-2012, 18:11
dwalker84, I have a good friend with Tucson PD. He just told me they have not had motor units on the streets at night for over a year now. They are only out during the day.

Perhaps, the OP is exercising a little creative artistic license...? To get the point across.

Or is the victim of an impersonator?

Louisville Glocker
03-02-2012, 22:08
My last experience with a Tucson motorcycle cop was a good one. He was on his way back to the station at the end of his shift, when he got a call about a possible break-in nearby. He took the call, found a broken window (in my house) and was able to apprehend a burglar hiding in my bathtub. Bags of CD's and other goodies were found just inside the front door. I got the call at work, and came down to verify I didn't know the guy, and to thank the officer.

Job well done. Wonder if it was the same cop. I lived about 2 miles (or less) from where the OP was pulled over.

Cheers,

argy1182
03-03-2012, 02:12
File a complaint, file a complaint, file a complaint. This officer was way out of line and their leadership needs to know that. If you let this go, you endorse it. Your expired registration earned you a ticket, but you were treated horribly. That is never ok.

ScottieG59
03-03-2012, 04:33
I do not see much to really complain about in this incident. At the very least, I would not call the experience awful. The events as you described them would not have been the cause of any discomfort to me.

Some people are nervous about dealing with law enforcement when all the officer wants to do is establish he is in control of the interaction.

I work in a secure facility in a secure location. I am regularly searched. Though I know I am a threat to nobody and have no illegal items, I may be selected as a potential threat. When that happens, my job is to cooperate and not complicate the process.

You can appear to being doing something suspicious without having any idea. Additionally, if you are in a vehicle with an expired tag, you can expect to stand out more.

I have learned to be very direct and respectful when dealing with law enforcement. I do not try to delve into the reading of emotions too much. My goal is to support them in their duties and not allow my ego to get into the way.

Bill Lumberg
03-03-2012, 08:11
Good post Scottie.

Fragman
03-03-2012, 08:41
I really didn't see anything untoward in the officers actions. I did think the search of the trunk was a little grey but, the OP popped the trunk and did not stop the search. Therefore, it's constitutional and allowed. Same as if you left the drivers door open and allowed them access.

Also, many, many serious offenders have been caught through routine traffic stops for minor offences.

Attitude is a two way deal. I suspect that when the CCW was displayed and the officer did not immediately change his demeanour and treat you ad 'one of the guys', your body language may have not helped you out. Can't say, I was not there. But, your post has a whiff of entitlement about it.

He has no idea who you are, and a CCW does not release one from traffic law. Nor does it say that you need to be treated any different.

Sorry, just calling it like I see it. I was not there.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kat1950
03-03-2012, 11:06
You summed it up by saying you Knew you should not be going through downtown, in my 61 years of life I realize there are Times and places we should not be without the chance of a problem, I try and avoid those areas at the times there could be a problem, even if I have to go out of my way, example there is a road that would cut 2 miles off my route home, during the day no problem, at night and especially weekend nights you will be pulled over, no matter what you drive, it is considered a crime spot at night due to crack sales and the congregation of criminal elements, I have been pulled over there once they went through the entire vehicle and detained me for 30 minutes wanting to know what I was doing in that area at night, informed them I was on my way home and my address on my license showed this was the easiest route. Police where brutal, a lot worse than OP post, Saw 2 of the cops in a 7 Eleven 2 days latter, said hello and they did remembered me, where nice as hell, shot the bull for 20 minutes, they apologized for the other night but did inform me to take other routes home at night due to the fact they are geared up for a hassle 90 percent of the time at night in that area and their attitudes are completely different.

Most people would say that is a violation of civil rights, it might be, but when I was a young man in the south 44 years ago you could be beat up by the cops for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and spend a night in jail before seeing the judge the next day and receiving 50.00 fine and 100 hours of community service.All this rambling is due to the fact that I am aware of my surroundings and what limits I put on myself to avoid problems.

I have a CCW but do not use it due to the fact I do not put myself in any situation I would need it. But always have a gun in truck and cars.

Glockbuster
03-03-2012, 11:37
You read the first paragraph and formed your opinion?

Did you read his previous posts in July 2011 about his driving history, his experiences with law enforcement? You might want to do that...:cool:

I have not read about the OP's driving experiences from July but can clearly see he is (was???) a strong advocate of open carry. I wonder what made him change his mind.

dwalker84
03-03-2012, 12:10
dwalker84, I have a good friend with Tucson PD. He just told me they have not had motor units on the streets at night for over a year now because of budget cuts. They are only out during the day.

Well you're friend is wrong or misinformed. There's motorcycle cops all over the place near 4th Ave on a Saturday night. I've included his badge number, division, and vehicle number. I have no reason or benefit to lie. I've e-mailed TPD to be directed to a supervisor. I will post the response here.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1431/20120303115620.jpghttp://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7306/20120303115444.jpg

Southswede
03-03-2012, 12:16
So yo broke the law and got a ticket. Pay it or go to court.

dwalker84
03-03-2012, 12:19
I have an incredibly clean driving record. I have rarely if ever been pulled over in a car, and if I was it was for something stupid like floating a stop sign. I have been pulled over more than the average joe when riding my motorcycle. It's a chopped bobber, and the license plate has to be placed vertically off to the side as there is no rear fender. The plate is legal, and meets the requirements of the state - but this has led to me being stopped a few times. I have the license plate laws on a print out in my wallet, it generally ends the stop quickly and they let me on my way.

argy1182
03-03-2012, 12:40
I work in a secure facility in a secure location. I am regularly searched. Though I know I am a threat to nobody and have no illegal items, I may be selected as a potential threat. When that happens, my job is to cooperate and not complicate the process.

You can appear to being doing something suspicious without having any idea. Additionally, if you are in a vehicle with an expired tag, you can expect to stand out more.

I have learned to be very direct and respectful when dealing with law enforcement. I do not try to delve into the reading of emotions too much. My goal is to support them in their duties and not allow my ego to get into the way.

This is not an applicable example. You chose to work in a secure facility and get searched on a regular basis. The OP did not make that choice. He deserved a ticket for the registration, but there is absolutely no reason he should have been pulled from his vehicle, be searched, etc. I know you say you want to support LE in their duties, but this is not one of their duties.

G26S239
03-03-2012, 12:56
Unless I missed it, was the question ever answered as to how long the registration was expired?

No it was not

garebel
03-03-2012, 14:32
dwalker84 it seems there is the implication you are a liar. Your lack of response confirms this implication.....

You might wanna take a look at post #124 :whistling:

RussP
03-03-2012, 15:15
dwalker84 it seems there is the implication you are a liar. Your lack of response confirms this implication.....You might wanna take a look at post #124 :whistling:Why don't we look at everything in context about the post you quoted...dwalker84, I have a good friend with Tucson PD. He just told me they have not had motor units on the streets at night for over a year now because of budget cuts. They are only out during the day.dwalker84 it seems there is the implication you are a liar. Your lack of response confirms this implication.....No, I'm not implying anything, just stating the fact as it was given to me.

If you look at dwalker's posting history, you'll see that there are times when he's gone a few days without logging in on GT. Do not read too much into his absence. He's got a lot more going on in his life than Glock Talk.I stated the information provided to me.

Southswede interpreted my statement incorrectly.

I corrected him.

Now dwalker84 provides additional information supporting his previous posts showing it was a Tucson officer.

I forwarded the images of the citation to my friend.

:cool:

F_G
03-03-2012, 15:27
Why the length of experiation being questioned one day , 30 days , if he was stopped prior wouldn't there be a warning ticket? Not trying to start an argument.Goes to the OP's credibility. Out of force for a couple of days, here in Arizona you could conceivably mail your renewal back on the last day of the month and have the appearance of suspended registration for 7 or 8 days while the tags are mailed back. LE out here know that and usually don't pull people over for the first couple of weeks of the month following the due date. If it has been expired for a longer length of time, shows bad decision making ability, lack of good judgement and a general lack of responsibility.

dhoomonyou
03-03-2012, 17:21
In most states the officer will already know if your armed by running the plate.

true or false?

I live in Florida, my instructor said the officer will already know, and to roll down window, hands on wheel, after handing over lic, reg & insurance info hand over ccw permit and tell officer where its located.

I had a traffic accident a few years ago, my car was hit by a DRUNK going the wrong way on a one way street, when I gave my info to the deputy, she said "keep it covered". BTW the idiot DRUNK insisted I was in the wrong.

I think the OP used a BROAD brush to paint this picture, not all officers are like this one, but luckily the 2nd deputy was there.

I wonder why the 2nd deputy didnt take over and say "chill" to the first officer, maybe a seniority issue.

I will say that this should come to the attention of the dept supervisors, if this officer did indeed "overstep" he needs some retraining before a SERIOUS event (shooting) happens for a motorist just scratching his head during a stop.

racer88
03-03-2012, 17:32
In most states the officer will already know if your armed by running the plate.

true or false?

I live in Florida, my instructor said the officer will already know.

This is why you can't take what "instructors" say for granted as truth. Your instructor is wrong. In Florida, the police have no way of knowing your CCW status, as the two databases are separate and not related. CCW is administrated by the Dept. of Agriculture (in Florida). LEOs do not have access to that database from their computers.

I've had a Florida CCW for about 15 years. I've been pulled over a few times. I've never volunteered my CCW, nor have I been asked. While I understand some believe it's better to volunteer the information, I disagree and prefer to keep traffic stops purely business and related to the traffic stop. I will not volunteer any information that may complicate the stop and create problems for me. I'll gladly take the ticket and be on my way.

certifiedfunds
03-03-2012, 17:45
I deserved to be pulled over and ticketed, period.



No you didn't. You've been conditioned to believe it but you didn't deserve it.

Dukeboy01
03-03-2012, 18:39
No you didn't. You've been conditioned to believe it but you didn't deserve it.

I see that the right to fail to pay your registration fees as required by the civil authority over the jurisdiction in which you live in order to be granted the privilege to use the roads paid for by the rest of your fellow citizens (in part or in whole by those same fees) is a hill to die on or something.

certifiedfunds
03-03-2012, 19:17
I see that the right to fail to pay your registration fees as required by the civil authority over the jurisdiction in which you live in order to be granted the privilege to use the roads paid for by the rest of your fellow citizens (in part or in whole by those same fees) is a hill to die on or something.

No. The OP is beating himself up as though he did something WRONG. He didn't do anything WRONG. He violated a stupid law.

There is a difference between "deserving" something and understanding you must face the consequence of your action or inaction.

Bruce M
03-03-2012, 19:22
..., but there is absolutely no reason he should have been pulled from his vehicle, be searched, etc. I know you say you want to support LE in their duties, but this is not one of their duties.

So the police have no authority to disarm someone during a traffic stop?

travDMH
03-03-2012, 20:25
So the police have no authority to disarm someone during a traffic stop?

I too live in Arizona, Prescott area though. I have been pulled over 3 times (never ticketed though). All by AZ DPS, every time I told the officer I was carrying and showed them my CCW. Every time the officer took my firearm, two times I was instructed to get out of the car and was frisked. I don't see the big deal though. It's a safety issue for both the officer and myself, I think its a good practice.

cysoto
03-03-2012, 20:30
Every time the officer took my firearm, two times I was instructed to get out of the car and was frisked. I don't see the big deal though.

I'd rather not be treated like a criminal; but that's just me... :whistling:

Sam Spade
03-03-2012, 20:35
I've e-mailed TPD to be directed to a supervisor. I will post the response here.
Would you also be willing to post your complaint, so we can have context for the response?

Sam Spade
03-03-2012, 20:40
I'd rather not be treated like a criminal; but that's just me... :whistling:

You're the latest of several people to equate being disarmed for the brief duration of a traffic stop with being treated like a criminal. I'm quite familiar with how I treat criminals, and this really doesn't make the grade. So what's driving the thought process?

RussP
03-03-2012, 21:05
I'd rather not be treated like a criminal; but that's just me... :whistling:Have you been disarmed and patted down by police?

cysoto
03-03-2012, 21:19
Have you been disarmed and patted down by police?

Nope; and I would rather keep it that way. There is no duty to inform in my state and, if I was ever stopped for violating a traffic law, I have no need nor intention of freely providing that information.

RussP
03-03-2012, 21:41
Have you been disarmed and patted down by police?
Nope; and I would rather keep it that way. There is no duty to inform in my state and, if I was ever stopped for violating a traffic law, I have no need nor intention of freely providing that information.So you are simply objecting to the officer, any officer disarming a carry permit holder at any time for any reason. Is that correct?

cysoto
03-03-2012, 21:44
So you are simply objecting to the officer, any officer disarming a carry permit holder at any time for any reason. Is that correct?

Do you paint with the broad brush much? :yawn:

Wonder140
03-03-2012, 22:34
Here in Florida, the amount of time the tag is expired is the difference in a $114 non moving violation citation and going to jail plus having your vehicle towed. I have seen quite a few ask how long it was expired for without this being answered. Why not answer?

Now, what exactly are you going to submit a complaint for? Did the officer use profanity(which may or may not be against this pd's policy), assault you, commit battery, illegally search you, or assault your wife, commit battery on your wife or illegally search your wife etc? Based on what you posted, I can go ahead and answer this as NO. You felt the need to inform the officer, who by the way doesn't know you from Adam, that you were carrying a concealed firearm and had a permit as such. The officer in turn asked you to alight from the vehicle and proceeded to disarm you of your firearm for the duration of the stop. So, this particular officer disarms you, and in turn you get a bit upset, based on your statements, and now you want to submit a complaint for what? Sounds to me like you got your panties in a wad over being disarmed. Also, it's almost as if you alert law enforcement you carry and have a permit so that you will get a "break". Found it interesting.

Law enforcement officer's handle firearms on traffic stops differently. If you don't want to possibly be disarmed during a traffic stop, might I suggest you not inform unless law requires so. You found an officer who feels safer with disarming someone he doesn't know of their firearm while legally detained on a traffic stop. You will likely run into one again. Giving an attitude or showing frustration, aggravation will only heighten the situation.

You were stopped for having an expired tag, disarmed, received a citation and sent on your way. I'm sorry you feel wronged, but nothing you stated the officer did would be against my pd's SOP. Of course, I would really like to hear the two officer's side of the stop. Often certain "things" are left out. Hey, it happens. Sometimes we forget certain "things".

Wonder140
03-03-2012, 22:41
You're the latest of several people to equate being disarmed for the brief duration of a traffic stop with being treated like a criminal. I'm quite familiar with how I treat criminals, and this really doesn't make the grade. So what's driving the thought process?

I hear this all the time too and don't understand it either. Silly really. Folks seem to forget that we simply just don't know who the heck they are!

certifiedfunds
03-03-2012, 22:47
I hear this all the time too and don't understand it either. Silly really. Folks seem to forget that we simply just don't know who the heck they are!

We don't know who the heck you are either!

Wonder140
03-03-2012, 22:49
I too live in Arizona, Prescott area though. I have been pulled over 3 times (never ticketed though). All by AZ DPS, every time I told the officer I was carrying and showed them my CCW. Every time the officer took my firearm, two times I was instructed to get out of the car and was frisked. I don't see the big deal though. It's a safety issue for both the officer and myself, I think its a good practice.

Sounds to me like your a realist. Not all law enforcement practice stops involving firearms this way but it sounds like you understand both sides of the way it can be handled.

I like your positive attitude and am sure law enforcement you come in contact with will appreciate this as well sir.

Wonder140
03-03-2012, 22:52
We don't know who the heck you are either!

And????

Don't worry, The officer will protect you during the traffic stop. Fair enough?

Hour13
03-03-2012, 23:49
OP... that really sucks. Unfortunately, there will always be a bad seed here & there, in any profession. Certainly leaves a sour taste when it's LE though. Just for trade, here's a recent GOOD experience I had...

As many of you know, I totaled my Mustang recently, piled it up pretty bad on I-10 on my way to work. Anyhow, I'm leaning against the wall on the shoulder when the police get there. Mind you, my car is/was a black '87 5.0 with tinted windows... cop magnet from hell, lol. And being that I restore Mustangs, when in my "work clothes" I look pretty skuzzy.

"You ok? What happened?"

"Kinda sore, but I'm alright. Got cut off, I dodged, spun, and ate the wall."

He called the ambulance, and asked for my license & insurance. I wrestled my glovebox open to get my ins card, then handed him that, and my license & CHL.

"You carrying right now?"

"Yes sir."

"Gonna shoot anybody?"

"Nah, guy who cut me off is long gone."

We both laughed, and he chatted with me till the ambulance arrived.

Done and done. Very nice guy, helped me stay calm when I was pretty shaken up. As with many other people, I've had a few bad experiences with LE. But THIS ^^^ is how most police officers have been.

My hat's off to you all. Thank you, and keep up the good work!
:patriot:

argy1182
03-04-2012, 00:29
So the police have no authority to disarm someone during a traffic stop?

Not in this scenario. OP didn't do anything to warrant that type of action from the police. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.

Wonder140
03-04-2012, 01:29
Not in this scenario. OP didn't do anything to warrant that type of action from the police. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.

Huh????

Bill Lumberg
03-04-2012, 05:18
And you don't get to, beyond name and badge number. During the stop, you and the officer are not equal and aren't intended to be. If you don't like it, go be equal in court. We don't know who the heck you are either!

RussP
03-04-2012, 05:54
Lets look at the entire conversation, cysoto...I too live in Arizona, Prescott area though. I have been pulled over 3 times (never ticketed though). All by AZ DPS, every time I told the officer I was carrying and showed them my CCW. Every time the officer took my firearm, two times I was instructed to get out of the car and was frisked. I don't see the big deal though. It's a safety issue for both the officer and myself, I think its a good practice.I'd rather not be treated like a criminal; but that's just me... :whistling:Have you been disarmed and patted down by police?
Nope; and I would rather keep it that way. There is no duty to inform in my state and, if I was ever stopped for violating a traffic law, I have no need nor intention of freely providing that information.So you are simply objecting to the officer, any officer disarming a carry permit holder at any time for any reason. Is that correct?

Do you paint with the broad brush much? :yawn:No, I do not.

Do you know much about cast net fishing, cysota? They don't do much of it in Colorado, I understand that.

In other areas they do. The principal is the fisherman throws out his net and pulls in whatever the net catches. He keeps the fish he wants and discards the rest. It is a process of elimination. If he casts and retrieves no fish he wants, he moves on to where the fish may be. That's what I do, sometimes.

It is interesting that you would not answer the question about the two possibilities. I'll ask a specific question.
Do you believe there are any situations when and where it is appropriate for a law enforcement officer to disarm a person legally carrying a firearm during a traffic stop?

RussP
03-04-2012, 06:22
For background, here are excerpts from a thread dwalker84 started 07-29-2011I'm having trouble confirming this -

The owner of one of the local gun shops here told me I could use my Oregon CCW to obtain an Arizona CCW. This doesn't seem right, but he says he is positive. I know I don't need a permit to carry in Arizona, but I want to have a valid AZ permit here either way. It has it's perks. My OR CCW is still valid, with a year or two left.

Does anyone know if this is the case?

What "perks" do you think an AZ permit would provide?

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NonResidentPermits.pdf

1) With an AZ permit I can legally carry in places that serve alcohol.
2) My experience handing officers my Oregon CCW has been incredibly positive, and the outcome is almost always great. The times that I haven't presented my CCW, the officer was much less 'friendly'. - I did have 1 Oro Valley officer insist that I couldn't carry with my Oregon permit, and was said I was lucky he didn't arrest me until I pulled out the state laws (I keep them in my wallet) regarding out-of-state permits - he radio'd in and let me go. This is why I want an AZ permit, just in case - it DOES help with LEO encounters, period.
3) I feel more comfortable being able to present a card, there may be a situation where the law comes into question from someone who is unfamiliar, civilian or LEO - especially with the recent "anyone can CCW" law.
4) If I move, I now have a valid permit for a few more years - my OR ccw will expire in a year or so.

Just how bad a driver are you? :supergrin:

I've talked to one LEO in the last 20+ years.

I've only had one moving violation since I started driving. I was my grandmother's caretaker for a few years, which meant I drove her 'grandma' car with a handicap license plate to run errands - I think it looked odd with a young guy, with visible sleeve tattoo's driving a handicap car registered to an old lady. And then I had several instances of getting pulled over on my motorcycle - it was a custom 'rat bike' bobber, with a vertical almost free floating license plate - it was legal, but I got pulled over soooo many times on that bike.. I've got ALOT of very positive CCW/LEO encounters.
I'm a good driver.. lol :p

Ironically, I wasn't allowed to carry in Oregon with an Arizona permit. Arizona honors an Oregon permit, but Oregon doesn't honor an Arizona permit.2) My experience handing officers my Oregon CCW has been incredibly positive, and the outcome is almost always great. The times that I haven't presented my CCW, the officer was much less 'friendly'. - I did have 1 Oro Valley officer insist that I couldn't carry with my Oregon permit, and was said I was lucky he didn't arrest me until I pulled out the state laws (I keep them in my wallet) regarding out-of-state permits - he radio'd in and let me go. This is why I want an AZ permit, just in case - it DOES help with LEO encounters, period.Stop having so many "LEO encounters." Your experience is borderline ridiculous.

Bear in mind that if you've changed your address from Oregon to Arizona, then your permit is no longer valid It may have an expiration date a year from now, but if you've taken residency in Arizona, your Oregon permit gives you no legal privilege.How am I supposed to stop LEO encounters? I wasn't aware that I could, can you let me in on your LEO repellent?
I work in Eloy, which is 100+ miles round trip per day - I'm not sure if you're aware but the highway patrol on I-10 are ruthless. My boss was just pulled over for doing 5 under the speed-limit for (obstructing traffic) on a 3 lane highway with very very light traffic.

So, it's my fault for having a legal plate - but officers don't know the law? Interesting.
I was to tell my grandmother - screw you, go get your own groceries and medication? It's difficult to carry groceries on a motorcycle btw. Also interesting.

Bruce M
03-04-2012, 06:34
Not in this scenario. OP didn't do anything to warrant that type of action from the police. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.

That is your opinion. However there is some information we are missing. For how long was the registration expired? For how long did the motor officer observe the vehicle and occupants before the stop? (Remember the OP said the officer asked why were they moving around inside the car.) I also asked the OP if the officer told him to place his hands on the roof and spread his legs or did the OP elect to do that on his own when he got out of the car. And I inquired as to the type of neighborhood and area in which the stop occured.

We have no idea what the suspicion if any was to disarm the driver because as discussed the officer is under no obligation to reveal that at the side of the road. We do not know if the driver or his car happened to be similar to a description of a recent criminal event.

We are missing some information from the OP as to whether he may have done something that made him appear criminal and since we do not have any information from the officer as to why he elected to disarm the driver, we really don't know whether there was a valid reason to disarm him or not. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.

certifiedfunds
03-04-2012, 07:42
And????

Don't worry, The officer will protect you during the traffic stop. Fair enough?

Some will. Sure. Some.

Of course SCOTUS says you aren't obligated in any way.

RussP
03-04-2012, 08:30
This is not an applicable example. You chose to work in a secure facility and get searched on a regular basis. The OP did not make that choice. He deserved a ticket for the registration, but there is absolutely no reason he should have been pulled from his vehicle, be searched, etc. I know you say you want to support LE in their duties, but this is not one of their duties.So the police have no authority to disarm someone during a traffic stop?Not in this scenario. OP didn't do anything to warrant that type of action from the police. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.That is your opinion. However there is some information we are missing.
For how long was the registration expired?


For how long did the motor officer observe the vehicle and occupants before the stop?


(Remember the OP said the officer asked why were they moving around inside the car.)


I also asked the OP if
the officer told him to place his hands on the roof and spread his legs or


did the OP elect to do that on his own when he got out of the car.


And I inquired as to the type of neighborhood and area in which the stop occured.

We have no idea what the suspicion if any was to disarm the driver because as discussed the officer is under no obligation to reveal that at the side of the road. We do not know if the driver or his car happened to be similar to a description of a recent criminal event.

We are missing some information from the OP as to whether he may have done something that made him appear criminal and since we do not have any information from the officer as to why he elected to disarm the driver, we really don't know whether there was a valid reason to disarm him or not. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.Bruce, I hope you don't mind my listing some of your points, your questions.

argy1182, you invest in real estate. Do you ever buy a property without knowing everything there is to know about that property, its history, the tenants in the property, its present condition, codes and ordinances that might influence the potential for the property? Do you accept a selling broker's proforma, or do you want to see actual I&E statements for the preceding "X" years certified true by the seller? Have you ever discovered that a seller has omitted information, or presented information in a way that shines a more positive light on the property than it should?

Same thing here as Bruce M and others point out to develop a final opinion.

Brian Lee
03-04-2012, 12:41
Of all the towns in Arizona, you're more likely to meet a lib-tarded anti-2A cop in Tucson than anywhere else. I wouldn't live in that nasty little dust bowl of liberal thinking if they gave me all the free ammo I could shoot.

kensteele
03-04-2012, 13:12
I do not believe disarming a permit holder at a traffic stop is treating them like a criminal. I have been disarmed twice and I didn't feel like I was treated like a criminal. In my mind, it does depend on the situation, if you have a unloaded firearm in the trunk and the officer wants you to get it so he can take possession of it, that might be a bit much. But it's not being treated like a criminal.

And one step further, patting down your pockets or a quick frisk when you get out of the car to go to his car or inspect the headlight or take the test is not asking too much and is not treating like a criminal either.

But what is being treated like a criminal? These actions after you refused to answer a question or have been somewhat "argumentative" (not hostile)....where is appears to have retaliatory overtones. Plus, if the officer wants to retrieve your weapon so he can run the serial number, to me that's being treated like a criminal. Check your state laws, ymmv.

And those are my opinions.

Sam Spade
03-04-2012, 16:14
Some will. Sure. Some.

Of course SCOTUS says you aren't obligated in any way.

Ah, but if you're detained by the popo or otherwise in our care and custody, there now exists a special relationship, which does carry the duty to protect.

certifiedfunds
03-04-2012, 16:25
Ah, but if you're detained by the popo or otherwise in our care and custody, there now exists a special relationship, which does carry the duty to protect.

Good point.

Perhaps I'm a bit jaded given the culture of corruption in local PDs.

argy1182
03-04-2012, 23:20
Bruce, I hope you don't mind my listing some of your points, your questions.

argy1182, you invest in real estate. Do you ever buy a property without knowing everything there is to know about that property, its history, the tenants in the property, its present condition, codes and ordinances that might influence the potential for the property? Do you accept a selling broker's proforma, or do you want to see actual I&E statements for the preceding "X" years certified true by the seller? Have you ever discovered that a seller has omitted information, or presented information in a way that shines a more positive light on the property than it should?

Same thing here as Bruce M and others point out to develop a final opinion.

See...that's where you're a fool. We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom. If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool. The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite. BTW, real estate decisions have little to do with this scenario.

Bruce M
03-05-2012, 06:17
See...that's where you're a fool. We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom. If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool. The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite. BTW, real estate decisions have little to do with this scenario.


While he can do a far better job of defending himself than can I, Russ does not seem to be prone to "knee jerk" reactions or statements. From what I can discern his arguments always seem well thought out and logical. He seems to go to great lengths to get as much information as possible before making a decision here. I believe that our immediate reaction should always be to seek as much information as possible before deciding. Anything less is, well, foolish.


Also, there is a train of thought that suggests that aggressively seeking out criminals for arrest and prosecution helps maintain and improve peace and order in society which may actually enhance individual freedom in the long run.


And finally at the risk of violating the rules of Glock Talk, I rather hope that perhaps you were calling me the fool (which I probably can be at times) rather than Russ. I do not think calling Russ a fool is appropriate or warranted. He does a good job of allowing a wide variety of opinions to be voiced here while maintaining a semblance of decorum and order.

Glockbuster
03-05-2012, 07:18
Not to nitpick, but I'm still waiting along with others for an answer on the question for how long was the registration expired. That is a very important point and one that has not been posted. The answer to that is important in the whole context of this thread as a reference to all readers. One could very well assume that the OP may actually have gotten a break if it was long ago expired.

Bill Lumberg
03-05-2012, 07:46
I think we've found the fool. And it isn't Russ. And if the OP wants facts he hasn't already been given, court is where that happens. It's not surprising, given his frequent encounters with law enforcement and self-described tumultuous personal life, that the OP finally had an encounter with police that he didn't find totally pleasant. I'm surprised it wasn't worse.

See...that's where you're a fool. We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom. If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool. The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite. BTW, real estate decisions have little to do with this scenario.

Sam Spade
03-05-2012, 10:10
That is your opinion. However there is some information we are missing. For how long was the registration expired? For how long did the motor officer observe the vehicle and occupants before the stop? (Remember the OP said the officer asked why were they moving around inside the car.)

I'm betting that we're missing a good deal more information, in addition to the points you've already raised.

RussP
03-05-2012, 10:50
See...that's where you're a fool.


We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom.


If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool.


The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite.


BTW, real estate decisions have little to do with this scenario.
Let's start with your denial that research, evaluating bits of information to determine if they are true facts, embellished facts, or fabrications, challenging information provided from sources in order to make the best, most informed decision possible in a real estate deal differs from doing the same here.

Is real estate the only place in your life you use that set of critical analysis skills?

How about in your role as Store Manager at Target.Okie - check out Target. We're always looking for good sales floor people, logistics, etc. I run a store in Vegas and it's a much more pleasant experience than our competitor across the street (Walmart).As Store Manager, do you ever get involved in personnel matters? Do you ever have to determine the truthfulness of an employee's statement. How did you do that?

By-the-way, does Target Corporate Policy allow employees at any level to carry firearms at work?

You said, "If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool."

Well, as Bruce M said, I am hardly prone to "knee jerk" reactions or statements. I do my research, I ask questions, regardless of where that research and those answers lead. I do not stop looking if I see it going down a path I don't like. The truth is the truth.

You are correct: "The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite." When they do show sufficient reason, how will you react?

"We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom." I do not disagree.

SpringerTGO
03-05-2012, 11:17
I'm not on the "LEO's are always right" bandwagon, and have been on the unfair side of a ticket, but.......
It seems like a common theme around here, that anytime a CCW holder has any kind of issue with law enforcement, people automatically jump on his side, without all the facts. It also seems to be a common theme, that just because we have permits, we are automatically the good guys. Passing a background check does not mean we are incapable of road rage, using drugs, beating our spouses, or whatever. It just means we haven't been busted. Just like wearing a badge doesn't mean that the LEO isn't capable of the exact same stuff.

A month ago I watched a transit cop escalate a situation, and pull out his taser. At the advice of a judge who I was going to lunch with, I pulled out my cell phone and started video taping it. The LEO saw me, and the guy didn't get tased. The LEO also came to our table at the restaurant, to explain his version of the situation.
So yes, I am aware that just because someone has a badge doesn't always mean he is a nice guy.

The OP here gets pulled over a lot, for whatever reasons. He says his bike license plate draws attention. I've ridden motorcycles for years, and do whatever I can to not draw attention to mine. Motorcycles are ticket magnets anyways... at least sport bikes are.

If you go around drawing attention to yourself from LEO's, for valid reasons at that, I doubt it's always going to be a friendly chat about what model Glock you like most.

Southswede
03-05-2012, 14:43
Let's start with your denial that research, evaluating bits of information to determine if they are true facts, embellished facts, or fabrications, challenging information provided from sources in order to make the best, most informed decision possible in a real estate deal differs from doing the same here.

Is real estate the only place in your life you use that set of critical analysis skills?

How about in your role as Store Manager at Target.As Store Manager, do you ever get involved in personnel matters? Do you ever have to determine the truthfulness of an employee's statement. How did you do that?

By-the-way, does Target Corporate Policy allow employees at any level to carry firearms at work?

You said, "If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool."

Well, as Bruce M said, I am hardly prone to "knee jerk" reactions or statements. I do my research, I ask questions, regardless of where that research and those answers lead. I do not stop looking if I see it going down a path I don't like. The truth is the truth.

You are correct: "The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite." When they do show sufficient reason, how will you react?

"We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom." I do not disagree.



:supergrin::yourock::aodnsb:

F_G
03-05-2012, 14:57
Not to nitpick, but I'm still waiting along with others for an answer on the question for how long was the registration expired. That is a very important point and one that has not been posted. The answer to that is important in the whole context of this thread as a reference to all readers.As am I...............I've asked twice and numerous other people have asked. The OP's reluctance to give an answer is suspect at best.

RussP
03-05-2012, 18:16
dwalker, on another forum you posted an email address of d****walker@*****.com as a contact point for people interested in your stippling services, which you've also advertised here on GT. Polymer frame stippling, reductions, grip chops, gunsmithing (http://glocktalk.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=18078&title=polymer-frame-stippling-2c-reductions-2c-grip-chops-2c-gunsmithing-cheap&cat=6)

Your signature on the citation you posted doesn't match the name in that email address, nor your screen name. We know many people use names other than their own as screen names. Is that the difference here?

RussP
03-05-2012, 18:38
Another quick question I'm surprised no one has asked, had you had anything to drink that night?

I did discover why Motor Units are out at night. They are part of the dui saturation patrols funded by a grant to TPD from the State. They are on over-time supplementing the Impaired Driver Enforcement Unit.

Here's the News Release from Chief Villaseñor:
ADDITIONAL GRANT FUNDING FOR DUI ENFORCEMENT (http://m.tucsonaz.gov/files/police/media-releases/gohs_additional_grant_funds_for_dui_enforcement.pdf)

argy1182
03-06-2012, 00:39
Let's start with your denial that research, evaluating bits of information to determine if they are true facts, embellished facts, or fabrications, challenging information provided from sources in order to make the best, most informed decision possible in a real estate deal differs from doing the same here.

Is real estate the only place in your life you use that set of critical analysis skills?

How about in your role as Store Manager at Target.As Store Manager, do you ever get involved in personnel matters? Do you ever have to determine the truthfulness of an employee's statement. How did you do that?

By-the-way, does Target Corporate Policy allow employees at any level to carry firearms at work?

You said, "If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool."

Well, as Bruce M said, I am hardly prone to "knee jerk" reactions or statements. I do my research, I ask questions, regardless of where that research and those answers lead. I do not stop looking if I see it going down a path I don't like. The truth is the truth.

You are correct: "The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite." When they do show sufficient reason, how will you react?

"We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom." I do not disagree.

Let me guess...old, retired, not a whole lot going on in your life, so you spend time googling others and the like. Sweet life, dude :rofl:

I didn't even have to search your name to come to those conclusions.

TBO
03-06-2012, 01:19
Let me guess...old, retired, not a whole lot going on in your life, so you spend time googling others and the like. Sweet life, dude :rofl:

I didn't even have to search your name to come to those conclusions.Attacking the person instead of attacking the argument is poor form (childish).

If you aren't interested in reasoned discourse, please take the higher road and pass.

jmho

Glockbuster
03-06-2012, 02:23
Let me guess...old, retired, not a whole lot going on in your life, so you spend time googling others and the like. Sweet life, dude :rofl:

I didn't even have to search your name to come to those conclusions.

Russ is doing a great job as a moderator, you are way off base.

USMCSergeant
03-06-2012, 03:19
Every cop is different, handles things different, and has a different attitude than the next. While I agree that being stopped by an officer that has a **** attitude isn't pleasant, it isn't something to get really upset about. I've heard officers sometimes act this way to make themselves seem powerful and show that they are in charge of the stop. How some people are confused about who's in charge of a traffic stop, I'll never understand.

If he asked you to step out of the vehicle and removed your weapon from your person, it was for his safety. It has happened to me on 2 occasions. Both times the officer ran the firearms over NCIC to check for hits, although they never asked me to step outside of my car. I would have complied with no issues if they did. Their main concern is getting home safely and if he feels getting you out of the vehicle helps him do that, so be it. If your weapon was unholstered you may not have had to step out. Having it holstered at 1:00 was most likely the main reason you were asked to exit, or I could be wrong. Maybe he asks all CCW holders to exit, either way it's his stop.

I understand he made you uncomfortable, and possibly had a bad attitude. I've been there and I've met them. It's like any other job. Some people go about their business in a decent attitude, others do not. Cops are the same way from my experience.

saxconnection
03-06-2012, 03:34
I don't know about this one. The laws in my state are so much different, it seems hard to relate. We have no emissions testing, for one thing.

From what I've been told (hearsay), if a police officer chooses to look up whether you have a CPL from his car, he (or she) is able to. Also, in Michigan, there is a duty to inform that you are carrying, and I have been told to inform that I have a CPL even if I'm not carrying. The last thing is that we are made to understand in the class is that because we are given the privilege of being able to carry our handguns concealed, that in order to keep that privilege, we must consent to any search requested of our vehicle (In searching, I have found this last portion to be untrue, although they can at any time ask for blood, breath or urine for chemical analysis - 28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.)

http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10941--,00.html
At the MSP website, it states in the proper conduct that a person is expected to fully cooperate with a police officer to ensure safety. I wonder if this means my safety may be compromised if I refuse a request to search my vehicle? I hope someone can shed a bit of light on this.


I have been frisked as part of a stop. I didn't feel like a criminal. I cooperated and was dealt with as a normal person. I've been pulled over with my weapon on me twice, and both times it was never a big deal. The first time, I was more nervous than the officer, who helped right away by putting me at ease with a "take it easy, brother". The way in which he said it implied we were both fighting the good fight. In short, if you act in a calm, respectful way, you are usually treated the same way.

As for the OP, I find blame on both sides. You have admitted yours, and if the cop's attitude is as you say, then he was unprofessional to say the least. And then also, there are bad days for everyone. This may have been his bad day.


Good luck, I hope this is resolved in a fair, just way.

Adam

Psychman
03-06-2012, 07:41
Wow. I have never had a problem with the police in my area. I have been pulled over 2 times in the past year or so. One for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign and another for probably going 10mph over the speed limit. BOTH times I had my weapon on the seat next to me. Both times I informed the officer I had a CCW and asked how he would like me to proceed with retreiving the registration. Both times they asked if I had a gun in the car. I told them where it was. One officer told me to retrieve my info from the glove box and thanked me for telling him ahead of time about the CCW and the gun on the seat next to me. The other officer took my gun back to his vehicle and unloaded it promptly losing one of the bullets in his car. Both officers sent me on my way with a warning. Neither officer was belligerent and in fact both were very pleasant and professsional. I just think ones experience varies depending on where you are stopped and what you are stopped for, but of course everyone has bad days too.

PS In Indiana we do not have to inform unless we are specifically asked about a CCW or weapon.

RussP
03-06-2012, 08:01
Let's start with your denial that research, evaluating bits of information to determine if they are true facts, embellished facts, or fabrications, challenging information provided from sources in order to make the best, most informed decision possible in a real estate deal differs from doing the same here.

Is real estate the only place in your life you use that set of critical analysis skills?

How about in your role as Store Manager at Target.Okie - check out Target. We're always looking for good sales floor people, logistics, etc. I run a store in Vegas and it's a much more pleasant experience than our competitor across the street (Walmart).As Store Manager, do you ever get involved in personnel matters? Do you ever have to determine the truthfulness of an employee's statement. How did you do that?

By-the-way, does Target Corporate Policy allow employees at any level to carry firearms at work?

You said, "If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool."

Well, as Bruce M said, I am hardly prone to "knee jerk" reactions or statements. I do my research, I ask questions, regardless of where that research and those answers lead. I do not stop looking if I see it going down a path I don't like. The truth is the truth.

You are correct: "The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite." When they do show sufficient reason, how will you react?

"We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom." I do not disagree.Let me guess...
old,


retired,


not a whole lot going on in your life,


so you spend time googling others and the like.


Sweet life, dude :rofl:


I didn't even have to search your name to come to those conclusions.
I usually throw in a fact, well, rather an opinion, that someone will disagree with, but looks like I scored an A+ on this one...
65, and you?


Absolutely. Started in retailing with Macy's back in '71 as a stockboy. Store manager thought I had promise. Worked my way up through management, including your position, but decided I liked buying better. Researching customer needs and wants and finding the right products at the right price in the right quantities, that was exciting. However, a change at the top when Donald Smiley called Ed Finkelstein from California back to Herald Square, well, the new California president didn't see eye-to-eye with me and 6 other buyers, so the seven of us left.

I went into real estate a year later. Long history covering residential resales, new home development, investment property sales, investment counseling, property management (ran the northern division of a company), then went over to the financial side analyzing loan portfolios, underwriting commercial loans, managing construction financing, property valuations for rehab, analyzing rehab portfolios, then pooling commercial loans for syndication, overseeing syndication closings, and finally managing four pools with over 1,500 commercial and multi-family properties.

It was during my real estate years, the property management time, but even more so the asset management time when I really started working closely with law enforcement. Learned a lot.

And you?


After all of the above, I deserve some down time, don't your think. I keep busy and help Eric here when I can.


Only those who deserve it.


Yeah, not bad.


Obviously.
:cool:

Okay, back on topic...

yukon2004
03-06-2012, 08:14
I've been pulled over twice while carrying. First time was speeding - I got the ticket and definitely deserved it, LOL. The 2nd time was for having no license plate on the front of my mustang that I had at the time - I got out of that ticket.

The first time I was pulled over by a state trooper. I put my windows down, turned off the engine, placed my keys on the dash where he could see them, and left my hands on the wheel. As soon as he finished whatever it was he said at first, I told him that I have a CHL and that I have my weapon on me. He asked where it was, and I told him IWB and only lifted my hand away from the wheel slowly and slightly just to point in the general direction of my waist. He never said anything else about it. He gave me a ticket, but you deserve it when you're driving as fast as I was, no matter what your excuse is, LOL.

The 2nd time I was pulled over by San Antonio Police Department. Same thing, made sure there was no reason for the officer to think I was going to try to flee, or do anything stupid, and immediately told him that I have a CHL and have a weapon on me. The only thing he asked me was if I had my CHL licence with me, which of course I did. That was end of that... he didn't even run my info or anything, after looking at my license, CHL, and proof of insurance. Just told me to put the front license plate on my car.

I just hope if and when I get pulled over again while carrying, that the process is just as smooth with the officers regarding my concealed weapon.

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 09:16
There are to many cops out there that are like this. I guess this will teach you to inform them, I never do unless I am in a State where I have to. But I hardly ever get pulled over anymore.

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 09:26
I'm not on the "LEO's are always right" bandwagon, and have been on the unfair side of a ticket, but.......
It seems like a common theme around here, that anytime a CCW holder has any kind of issue with law enforcement, people automatically jump on his side, without all the facts. It also seems to be a common theme, that just because we have permits, we are automatically the good guys. Passing a background check does not mean we are incapable of road rage, using drugs, beating our spouses, or whatever. It just means we haven't been busted. Just like wearing a badge doesn't mean that the LEO isn't capable of the exact same stuff.

A month ago I watched a transit cop escalate a situation, and pull out his taser. At the advice of a judge who I was going to lunch with, I pulled out my cell phone and started video taping it. The LEO saw me, and the guy didn't get tased. The LEO also came to our table at the restaurant, to explain his version of the situation.
So yes, I am aware that just because someone has a badge doesn't always mean he is a nice guy.

The OP here gets pulled over a lot, for whatever reasons. He says his bike license plate draws attention. I've ridden motorcycles for years, and do whatever I can to not draw attention to mine. Motorcycles are ticket magnets anyways... at least sport bikes are.

If you go around drawing attention to yourself from LEO's, for valid reasons at that, I doubt it's always going to be a friendly chat about what model Glock you like most.

The way I see it, my CCW shows that I am not a felon. Any cop that treats me like a criminal is out of line.

RussP
03-06-2012, 09:48
The way I see it, my CCW shows that I am not a felon. Any cop that treats me like a criminal is out of line.Neither was Bart Wayne Johnson who was found guilty of killing a Pelham police officer. (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/05/verdict_reached_in_trial_of_ma.html) He had a carry permit. Heck, his brother's a cop. That should be a double reassurance he's a good guy, right? Guess it wasn't.

You know you are a good guy. I know I am a good guy. Cop who doesn't know us...:dunno:

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 10:07
Neither was Bart Wayne Johnson who was found guilty of killing a Pelham police officer. (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/05/verdict_reached_in_trial_of_ma.html) He had a carry permit. Heck, his brother's a cop. That should be a double reassurance he's a good guy, right? Guess it wasn't.

You know you are a good guy. I know I am a good guy. Cop who doesn't know us...:dunno:

Really you have one example out of maybe millions? Besides I bet Bart didn't tell the cop he had a gun. I don't tell because I don't want to be treated like a criminal.

amd65
03-06-2012, 10:20
I am fine with notifying. I am fine with giving an officer my handgun during a stop.
But, I find the notion that the officer feels he can unload my magazine, and hand me back an empty weapon and a handful of bullets rediculous....does such an officer think the CCW'er dosn't have a loaded spare mag?
Judging from watching officers handling seized weapons from criminals on COPS, I'm not sure I like the idea of an officer playing with my pistol.

Sam Spade
03-06-2012, 10:25
The way I see it, my CCW shows that I am not a felon. Any cop that treats me like a criminal is out of line.

It shows that at one specific moment in the past you weren't a felon.

The proper answer is to treat you as you deserve based on current circumstances, not based on past events. Surely you don't object to that?

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 10:34
It shows that at one specific moment in the past you weren't a felon.

The proper answer is to treat you as you deserve based on current circumstances, not based on past events. Surely you don't object to that?

Of course not but speeding, something I try not to do, is not a case for treating me like a criminal. Besides if I was a felon I would be in jail or at least had my permit taken away. Maybe if police treated people with respect they would get some back. I am not a police hater I have a son in law and some friends that are cops. I have also been arrested and jailed when I was innocent, had to get a lawyer to prove my innocents. All because the Officer was to lazy to do police work. So sorry I don't trust anyone I don't know, even if they have a badge.

RussP
03-06-2012, 10:44
Really you have one example out of maybe millions? Besides I bet Bart didn't tell the cop he had a gun. I don't tell because I don't want to be treated like a criminal.Just think, before Johnson murdered Officer Philip Davis around midnight December 3 back in 2009, no other local pharmacist with a carry permit had murdered a cop during a traffic stop.

No, just like you plan on doing, Johnson did not tell Davis he had a gun.

It isn't required in Alabama, just like in Montana notifying LE is not required.

But he had one, just like you'll have one.

Johnson did tell Davis his brother's a cop. Why did he do that? Did he do it to relax Davis? To cause Davis to let his guard down?

You are aware these shootings are studied, analyzed, critiqued and published to every law enforcement agency in the country, aren't you? Some officers study the cases. Some cops don't...but they all know it happened.

You might not like it, but Johnson's behavior influences how cops react to you, and to the OP, and to me. Hell, I don't like it at all, but I'd rather cops learn from it and apply those lessons to how they handle people during encounters of any kind.

You do not seem too concerned with cops not wanting to be the next officer murdered by a card carrying good guy. It probably isn't going to bother you much at all when it happens, seeing that it's just one of the risks of being a cop - you know - death. But, hey, they chose the career knowing the risks, didn't they. Tough luck if they are killed by someone who wasn't a felon right up until they pulled the trigger.

Yeah, one out of millions - would you volunteer to be #2 out of millions more?

RussP
03-06-2012, 10:46
Of course not but speeding, something I try not to do, is not a case for treating me like a criminal. Besides if I was a felon I would be in jail or at least had my permit taken away. Maybe if police treated people with respect they would get some back. I am not a police hater I have a son in law and some friends that are cops. I have also been arrested and jailed when I was innocent, had to get a lawyer to prove my innocents. All because the Officer was to lazy to do police work. So sorry I don't trust anyone I don't know, even if they have a badge.And that's a one way street?

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 10:51
Just think, before Johnson murdered Officer Philip Davis around midnight December 3 back in 2009, no other local pharmacist with a carry permit had murdered a cop during a traffic stop.

No, just like you plan on doing, Johnson did not tell Davis he had a gun.

It isn't required in Alabama, just like in Montana notifying LE is not required.

But he had one, just like you'll have one.

Johnson did tell Davis his brother's a cop. Why did he do that? Did he do it to relax Davis? To cause Davis to let his guard down?

You are aware these shootings are studied, analyzed, critiqued and published to every law enforcement agency in the country, aren't you? Some officers study the cases. Some cops don't...but they all know it happened.

You might not like it, but Johnson's behavior influences how cops react to you, and to the OP, and to me. Hell, I don't like it at all, but I'd rather cops learn from it and apply those lessons to how they handle people during encounters of any kind.

You do not seem too concerned with cops not wanting to be the next officer murdered by a card carrying good guy. It probably isn't going to bother you much at all when it happens, seeing that it's just one of the risks of being a cop - you know - death. But, hey, they chose the career knowing the risks, didn't they. Tough luck if they are killed by someone who wasn't a felon right up until they pulled the trigger.

Yeah, one out of millions - would you volunteer to be #2 out of millions more?

OK, there was this one cop that committed murder so I should treat all cops as killers? Police work is far from the most dangerous job out there. I don't want to get into a us VS them fight, even cops should treat people with respect.

RussP
03-06-2012, 10:52
Really you have one example out of maybe millions? Besides I bet Bart didn't tell the cop he had a gun. I don't tell because I don't want to be treated like a criminal.Just in case you are interested in the back-story on the murder of Officer Davis. “Bart Wayne Johnson” (http://topics.al.com/tag/Bart%20Wayne%20Johnson/index.html)

dosei
03-06-2012, 10:56
Really you have one example out of maybe millions?

The tragedy is that it was so easy to find a rather recent example...

To date there have been 20 mass shootings, 30 murder-suicides, and 11 LEO murders committed by CWP card carrying "white hats" (per the stats collected by the gun-loathing folks over at VPC). I have no doubt that you very much want to point out just how small a percentage of the CWP holders these numbers represent...because it IS a very small percentage. However, even if there was only 1 incident, it would still show beyond a shadow of a doubt that the simple presence of a CWP does not automatically prove the holder to be Dudley Doright. To think that it somehow does is purely delusional.

kensteele
03-06-2012, 10:56
Every cop is different, handles things different, and has a different attitude than the next. While I agree that being stopped by an officer that has a **** attitude isn't pleasant, it isn't something to get really upset about. I've heard officers sometimes act this way to make themselves seem powerful and show that they are in charge of the stop. How some people are confused about who's in charge of a traffic stop, I'll never understand.

If he asked you to step out of the vehicle and removed your weapon from your person, it was for his safety. It has happened to me on 2 occasions. Both times the officer ran the firearms over NCIC to check for hits, although they never asked me to step outside of my car. I would have complied with no issues if they did. Their main concern is getting home safely and if he feels getting you out of the vehicle helps him do that, so be it. If your weapon was unholstered you may not have had to step out. Having it holstered at 1:00 was most likely the main reason you were asked to exit, or I could be wrong. Maybe he asks all CCW holders to exit, either way it's his stop.

I understand he made you uncomfortable, and possibly had a bad attitude. I've been there and I've met them. It's like any other job. Some people go about their business in a decent attitude, others do not. Cops are the same way from my experience.

If your state does not allow it, please don't let the officer run your firearm to check to see if it is stolen, I mean, please don't offer it up or give permission. You are not a criminal and the police have no reason to believe the firearm is stolen, they just can't check your serial number just because you tell them you have a firearm. Or can they?

Sam Spade
03-06-2012, 10:57
Of course not but speeding, something I try not to do, is not a case for treating me like a criminal.

You're the latest in the thread to use the term "treat me like a criminal". Could you please expand on this? As I said before, I'm very familiar with how I treat criminals, and a simple, temporary disarm during a traffic stop doesn't equate to that.

So in your opinion when do the police start treating someone like a criminal?

kensteele
03-06-2012, 10:59
I don't know about this one. The laws in my state are so much different, it seems hard to relate. We have no emissions testing, for one thing.

From what I've been told (hearsay), if a police officer chooses to look up whether you have a CPL from his car, he (or she) is able to. Also, in Michigan, there is a duty to inform that you are carrying, and I have been told to inform that I have a CPL even if I'm not carrying. The last thing is that we are made to understand in the class is that because we are given the privilege of being able to carry our handguns concealed, that in order to keep that privilege, we must consent to any search requested of our vehicle (In searching, I have found this last portion to be untrue, although they can at any time ask for blood, breath or urine for chemical analysis - 28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.)

http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10941--,00.html
At the MSP website, it states in the proper conduct that a person is expected to fully cooperate with a police officer to ensure safety. I wonder if this means my safety may be compromised if I refuse a request to search my vehicle? I hope someone can shed a bit of light on this.


I have been frisked as part of a stop. I didn't feel like a criminal. I cooperated and was dealt with as a normal person. I've been pulled over with my weapon on me twice, and both times it was never a big deal. The first time, I was more nervous than the officer, who helped right away by putting me at ease with a "take it easy, brother". The way in which he said it implied we were both fighting the good fight. In short, if you act in a calm, respectful way, you are usually treated the same way.

As for the OP, I find blame on both sides. You have admitted yours, and if the cop's attitude is as you say, then he was unprofessional to say the least. And then also, there are bad days for everyone. This may have been his bad day.


Good luck, I hope this is resolved in a fair, just way.

Adam

Nope. I don't live anywhere close to MI and I can tell you for sure having a permit is not implied consent to search the vehicle. Always, always refuse to give consent to search your vehicle. Did I say always?

RussP
03-06-2012, 11:12
OK, there was this one cop that committed murder so I should treat all cops as killers? Police work is far from the most dangerous job out there. I don't want to get into a us VS them fight, even cops should treat people with respect.Again, is that a one way street?

Yes, cops have committed homicide, been arrested, tried by a jury and convicted. If that occurrence, those occurrences make you nervous around cops you don't know, good. Will you be more cautious? Will you be more aware of the officer's demeanor? Will you be more attentive to what the officer says and how he/she says it? Will you pay attention to how the officer moves? How will you react to any action(s) by the officer you deem inappropriate?

This thread is about someone who was stopped for a vehicle registration violation. Something caused the officer to disarm him.

The OP stated the officer said he and his passenger were "moving around and fidgeting." The OP tells us they were not.

The OP tells us his passenger was startled by a second officer. It was then he's told to get out of the car, was disarmed and patted down around his waist.

Did her action/reaction cause it? Did the OP's action/reaction cause it? Were there other factors?

Don't know yet.

saxconnection
03-06-2012, 11:49
Nope. I don't live anywhere close to MI and I can tell you for sure having a permit is not implied consent to search the vehicle. Always, always refuse to give consent to search your vehicle. Did I say always?
Thanks for the reply, I thought it was weird that came up when taking the class (2004), but I also figured if you were given the OK to have a CPL, you shouldn't have anything to hide. I know better now.

For what it's worth, of the seven times (in 12 years) I've been in contact with a police officer with my vehicle (not always been a pulled over situation), a police officer has never asked to search my vehicle, nor tried any tactics to gain unauthorized access to other parts of my vehicle. For the most part, I find if you treat people the way you want to be treated, life moves pretty smoothly, police officers included.

Adam

SpringerTGO
03-06-2012, 13:33
The way I see it, my CCW shows that I am not a felon. Any cop that treats me like a criminal is out of line.

So by using your logic, we can prevent all felonies just by issuing CCW's to potential criminals before they commit a crime? Because CCW holders can't commit felonies.

And argy1182......
You really are out of line. Man up, and give Russ the apology you owe him. Because you lost all cred with that rant you posted.

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 14:12
So by using your logic, we can prevent all felonies just by issuing CCW's to potential criminals before they commit a crime? Because CCW holders can't commit felonies.

And argy1182......
You really are out of line. Man up, and give Russ the apology you owe him. Because you lost all cred with that rant you posted.

That's a stretch!

RussP
03-06-2012, 15:07
So by using your logic, we can prevent all felonies just by issuing CCW's to potential criminals before they commit a crime? Because CCW holders can't commit felonies.That's a stretch!Actually, that's already the process, B.Reid. Everyone who qualifies for a carry permit gets one. Then those who realize their criminal potential are weeded out after the fact. They are not many in numbers, but they exist.

In Constitutional Carry states, where everyone not otherwise prohibited can carry, the base of potential offenders broadens.

B.Reid
03-06-2012, 18:20
Actually, that's already the process, B.Reid. Everyone who qualifies for a carry permit gets one. Then those who realize their criminal potential are weeded out after the fact. They are not many in numbers, but they exist.

In Constitutional Carry states, where everyone not otherwise prohibited can carry, the base of potential offenders broadens.

You must work for the Government.

AZLawDawg
03-06-2012, 20:37
You must work for the Government.

Is RussP right or wrong in his post?

AZLawDawg
03-06-2012, 21:14
The way I see it, my CCW shows that I am not a felon. Any cop that treats me like a criminal is out of line.

So sorry I don't trust anyone I don't know, even if they have a badge.

So, LE is supposed to automatically assume you are a good guy? now that's a stretch.

Sorry, I don't trust anyone I don't know, even if they have a CCW.

ChuteTheMall
03-06-2012, 21:35
So, LE is supposed to automatically assume you are a good guy? now that's a stretch.

Sorry, I don't trust anyone I don't know, even if they have a CCW.

Some people are innocent until proven guilty.
Some people are above the law.

There's nothing in the Bill of Rights allowing infringement of 2nd amendment rights for peasants who lack royal permission (carry permits).

AZLawDawg
03-06-2012, 21:48
Some people are innocent until proven guilty.
Some people are above the law.

There's nothing in the Bill of Rights allowing infringement of 2nd amendment rights for peasants who lack royal permission (carry permits).

I live in a state where CCW ( or royal permission :upeyes: ) isn't required, and guess what, I don't blindly trust carriers there either :wavey:

USMCSergeant
03-06-2012, 22:15
If your state does not allow it, please don't let the officer run your firearm to check to see if it is stolen, I mean, please don't offer it up or give permission. You are not a criminal and the police have no reason to believe the firearm is stolen, they just can't check your serial number just because you tell them you have a firearm. Or can they?

Oh there was no option. She asked me to unholster it and hand it to her, which I did very slowly. She took it with her to her vehicle, along with my license, and ran it NCIC. The reason I know is that I work at the 911 center and someone told me that she ran all my info, and did a NCIC gun check. So I'm assuming in my state that once you tell them you're armed, that they have the PC to run it for hits.

Mister_Beefy
03-07-2012, 00:23
Why do people insist on borrowing trouble? Renew your tags, fix your broken tail lights, remove your illegal tint, and quit making excuses.

yeah, because if you have a negative encounter with police, it was your fault anyway.

and if you didn't have your car towed you have nothing to complain about. :rofl:

Mister_Beefy
03-07-2012, 00:30
Neither was Bart Wayne Johnson who was found guilty of killing a Pelham police officer. (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/05/verdict_reached_in_trial_of_ma.html) He had a carry permit. Heck, his brother's a cop. That should be a double reassurance he's a good guy, right? Guess it wasn't.

You know you are a good guy. I know I am a good guy. Cop who doesn't know us...:dunno:


Neither was Daniel Harless, who was fired for violating rules for conduct, cooperation with the public and handling persons. He had a badge. Heck, he had been an officer for 15 years. That should be a double reassurance he's a good guy, right? Guess it wasn't.

I know I'm a good guy. You know you're a good guy. How do we know the cop is a good guy?


that same lens can be pointed in more than one direction. :wavey:

Mister_Beefy
03-07-2012, 00:34
Let's start with your denial that research, evaluating bits of information to determine if they are true facts, embellished facts, or fabrications, challenging information provided from sources in order to make the best, most informed decision possible in a real estate deal differs from doing the same here.

Is real estate the only place in your life you use that set of critical analysis skills?

How about in your role as Store Manager at Target.As Store Manager, do you ever get involved in personnel matters? Do you ever have to determine the truthfulness of an employee's statement. How did you do that?

By-the-way, does Target Corporate Policy allow employees at any level to carry firearms at work?

You said, "If your knee jerk reaction is to favor police searches and the like, then you are a fool."

Well, as Bruce M said, I am hardly prone to "knee jerk" reactions or statements. I do my research, I ask questions, regardless of where that research and those answers lead. I do not stop looking if I see it going down a path I don't like. The truth is the truth.

You are correct: "The facts must come out to show reason for searching him and pulling him out of his car, not the opposite." When they do show sufficient reason, how will you react?

"We should ALWAYS have our immediate reaction be on the side of individual freedom." I do not disagree.

dwalker, on another forum you posted an email address of d****walker@*****.com as a contact point for people interested in your stippling services, which you've also advertised here on GT. Polymer frame stippling, reductions, grip chops, gunsmithing (http://glocktalk.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=18078&title=polymer-frame-stippling-2c-reductions-2c-grip-chops-2c-gunsmithing-cheap&cat=6)

Your signature on the citation you posted doesn't match the name in that email address, nor your screen name. We know many people use names other than their own as screen names. Is that the difference here?


do you knit?

or bake a mean batch of cookies?

because you are an amazing internet busybody, you give my grandma a run for her money.

TBO
03-07-2012, 01:02
if you cannot attack the argument, attack the poster. The classic sign of a defeated argument.

Mister_Beefy
03-07-2012, 01:30
if you cannot attack the argument, attack the poster. The classic sign of a defeated argument.


meh, cry harder.

I'm not arguing with russp's position. I'm just commenting on what he's posting and how he's posting it.

just because someone says "I don't like pickles" doesn't mean they hate cucumbers.

oops.... nobody has mentioned pickles in this thread..... STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!!!!!! :rofl:

Nanuk
03-07-2012, 02:00
MAN,

This thread is awesome! Its like going down a worm hole, you never know where its going.

The OP has not answered the question posted SEVERAL times, how long were the tags expired?

The other thing that people like to throw out there is "Being treated like a criminal", I am also curious as to what your perception is of being treated like a criminal is.

From following this amazing thread it seems the OP has quite a history and likes to "Make a statement". You know open carry, sleeve tats.

He does not know how long he was followed, the second cop "Came out of nowhere", well not really.

There is some really strong US vs THEM here, in the immortal words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?".

RussP
03-07-2012, 05:17
do you knit?

or bake a mean batch of cookies?

because you are an amazing internet busybody, you give my grandma a run for her money.

meh, cry harder.

I'm not arguing with russp's position. I'm just commenting on what he's posting and how he's posting it.

just because someone says "I don't like pickles" doesn't mean they hate cucumbers.

oops.... nobody has mentioned pickles in this thread..... STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!!!!!! :rofl:I do not knit, but I've been using a sewing machine for basic tasks since I was 7-years old.

It's been many years since I've made them from scratch, but, yes, I can bake a mean batch of cookies.

Your grandmother seeks out the truth, too? WOW!! Yeah, I would like to meet her. Perhaps she could provide some insight on...well, that's another thread.

Glad to hear you're not arguing with my position.

I do not see the connection between my posts you quoted and your comments(?) about them.

Here again, if you would do the research, you would better understand what I posted. argy1182 and dwalker84 understand.

SpringerTGO
03-07-2012, 09:07
do you knit?

or bake a mean batch of cookies?

because you are an amazing internet busybody, you give my grandma a run for her money.

So that's the best you have to offer?
This is really a bizarre forum. I've been on other boards where mods are quick to ban, and don't even bother to discuss things with people they don't agree with.
Here we have a mod who is taking time to make logical and rational posts, and people like you insult him for doing so.

If you don't agree with someone, how about discussing it instead of tossing insults.

MoneyMaker
03-07-2012, 09:17
You mean this is still going on ? Geez give it a rest as i dont think anyone cares

RussP
03-07-2012, 11:15
You mean this is still going on ? Geez give it a rest as i dont think anyone cares210 legitimate posts say you're wrong. :cool:

Bruce M
03-07-2012, 11:45
In case he is still following this thread, I will say again, it would be really nice of the OP could offer up answers to at least a couple questions.

Southswede
03-07-2012, 17:26
In case he is still following this thread, I will say again, it would be really nice of the OP could offer up answers to at least a couple questions.

I'm thinking the OP is mad because this time his CCW didn't get him out of the ticket.......

kensteele
03-07-2012, 17:34
Oh there was no option. She asked me to unholster it and hand it to her, which I did very slowly. She took it with her to her vehicle, along with my license, and ran it NCIC. The reason I know is that I work at the 911 center and someone told me that she ran all my info, and did a NCIC gun check. So I'm assuming in my state that once you tell them you're armed, that they have the PC to run it for hits.

you should probably check that out if you care to know. being issued a state permit and carrying a loaded firearm is hardly pc i doubt it. if it doesn't bother you, fine. my serial numbers were ran once, like you i didn't realise at the time before it was too late.

a lot of people don't care to be search as long as they don't have anything to hide, they'll gladly give permission. not me.

Ohio Copper
03-09-2012, 17:20
Whew!:wow:

Don't ya just love getting portions of a story? It's like a jigsaw puzzle, only I don't reaaaallly want to see the outcome.

Wasatch
03-10-2012, 08:24
I've had about a dozen interactions with officers during traffic stops since I started carrying in 2004. (I've been equally negligent of my registration -- my fault.) They have all been very favorable, and I consider myself very lucky and blessed in that regard.

My assessment of interactions with police is this: They have a very difficult, demanding, and often a very dangerous job to do. Some officers have it easier than others, based on department, position, and a variety of other factors. Some officers take the pressure of a particularly hard/bad/exhausting shift than others.

With all this in mind, I'm not expecting (or demanding) a totally positive interaction with the next officer I encounter. I've had far more than I probably deserve.

Police are people, too. The day we have robots filling the roles of law enforcement is the day that I hope I live close to either John or Sarah Connor. Till then, don't expect every interaction with an officer to be divinely pleasant. Certainly you don't expect such from EVERYONE...why make an exception with a police officer?

Steve50
03-10-2012, 11:16
I've had about a dozen interactions with officers during traffic stops since I started carrying in 2004. (I've been equally negligent of my registration -- my fault.) They have all been very favorable, and I consider myself very lucky and blessed in that regard.

My assessment of interactions with police is this: They have a very difficult, demanding, and often a very dangerous job to do. Some officers have it easier than others, based on department, position, and a variety of other factors. Some officers take the pressure of a particularly hard/bad/exhausting shift than others.

With all this in mind, I'm not expecting (or demanding) a totally positive interaction with the next officer I encounter. I've had far more than I probably deserve.

Police are people, too. The day we have robots filling the roles of law enforcement is the day that I hope I live close to either John or Sarah Connor. Till then, don't expect every interaction with an officer to be divinely pleasant. Certainly you don't expect such from EVERYONE...why make an exception with a police officer?

If they start addressing you by your first name as soon as they approach the car, you may need to adjust your driving habits...:supergrin:

pipedreams
03-10-2012, 11:42
MAN,

This thread is awesome! Its like going down a worm hole, you never know where its going.
Yep you never know what's next........................

2740dmx
03-10-2012, 13:36
Holy Cow!
Just read this entire thread...

Seems as if the OP still has some info that he could share with us....to help complete the picture....(he did, after all, start this whole conversation)

I have always thought it best to put myself into the shoes of the officers who are interacting with me.

I would prefer to not announce that I have a weapon, but once they ask me to get out of the car....I would let them know before exiting.

This forum can be a great place for us to share info, swap stories, learn from each others' experiences, and get a good laugh now and then......
When it turns into name calling and insults...I wonder why the heck I spend so much time here...:embarassed:

It seems like the OP wanted to vent his frustration with a group of fellow gun owners....and it took on a life of it's own!
The police are in a no-win situation for most of their duties.
I am not a LEO, nor would I ever want to be...but realize that the majority of the people they come into contact with....have needs :upeyes: that they need met, or have broken a law....:shocked:

EPIC THREAD!

Wasatch
03-10-2012, 16:02
If they start addressing you by your first name as soon as they approach the car, you may need to adjust your driving habits...:supergrin:

Probably fewer than a dozen -- maybe more like 7-8 -- but all but one was for registration. Not like that's any less pathetic. :supergrin:

Mister_Beefy
03-10-2012, 22:54
So that's the best you have to offer?
This is really a bizarre forum. I've been on other boards where mods are quick to ban, and don't even bother to discuss things with people they don't agree with.
Here we have a mod who is taking time to make logical and rational posts, and people like you insult him for doing so.

If you don't agree with someone, how about discussing it instead of tossing insults.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


don't ever, ever disagree with a LEO here. you'll be in for a nasty surprise.

Ohio Copper
03-10-2012, 23:59
don't ever, ever disagree with a LEO here. you'll be in for a nasty surprise.

Like a rational explanation and an attempt to actually get to the truth? That's definitely a nasty surprise :upeyes:

Wonder140
03-11-2012, 04:42
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


don't ever, ever disagree with a LEO here. you'll be in for a nasty surprise.

That's just absurd.

Ryobi
03-11-2012, 05:19
Not true here. But can be the case in real life. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


don't ever, ever disagree with a LEO here. you'll be in for a nasty surprise.

RussP
03-11-2012, 08:50
Ohio Copper, for a FNG here on GT, you've hit your stride real quick. :thumbsup:

There're two other threads, one here in Carry Issues, Trayvon Martin's Family Calls For Arrest Of Man Who Confessed To Shooting (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407266), and the other in GNG, For the Cops, reason why this dude is still free? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407217), that illustrate your point.

There are the original news reports sorely lacking a balanced presentation of details.

Newer reports add details about both the shooter and the victim, or the victim and the attacker, depending on your view of the situation.

Even newer reports have a few more details, a lot more allegations and more opinions about both parties.

Are all the facts on the table so people can see what happened? No. Is all the truth known by everyone about everyone? No.

Police Chief Lee is asking everyone to be patient, let them finish the investigation and let the State Attorney's Office decide whether a Grand Jury is needed.

Same holds true with this thread. We have dwalker's version of what happened: The cop was an *******.

Questions were asked. Some are still on the public forum table unanswered. Wouldn't it be nice to know those answers?

Wonder140, to the really hard core "It's another bad cop abusing a citizen legally carrying" crowd, though, more answers and truthful facts are not necessary, not needed, especially if the outcome benefits the law enforcement side of the story.

Ryobi, it's that surprise in real life we're trying to avoid by learning what causes actions/reactions on all sides of an encounter. We want to know what can a person carrying do to mitigate issues, what can they do if their efforts fail, and what should be expected of law enforcement in the real world under real life circumstances. The latter part is what some people just can't seem to wrap their head around.

RussP
03-11-2012, 18:28
Lets get back to discussing the original topic.

If you have personal issues with other members, put them on your ignore list.

No more flame wars, no more trolling to start fights with other members.

Thank you...

LongGoneDays
03-11-2012, 18:55
This thread started off like a magazine. First part of the story then "continued on page 48". No way man.

Fragman
03-11-2012, 19:08
Everyone has a bad day, and I have no doubt that some cops have bad days too and act in a manner that they, on reflection, may consider not up to their usual professional standards. As does anyone in any line of work. I know I have been known to snap at someone who may have gotten on my last good nerve.

All that said, the scenario described by the OP does not fall into this category. Nothing wrong that I can see in the officers actions.

Secondly, the side of the road, or the GT forum for that matter, is not the place to file a complaint if you have one. Nothing is going to work in your favor there.

The traffic stop is normally recorded. If the OP really has a case, then he has a recourse. Of course, the thing about recording the stop is that it records the driver too. And I think that once many complainants see the video and see their own actions, then perhaps they gain a new perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ohio Copper
03-11-2012, 21:30
I have seen this type of issue happen in person before as well as had it happen to me. Someone feels they were wronged or that said officer was out of line in their treatment. It is amazing how somebody's demeanor changes in regards to filing a complaint once they see the video or hear the audio evidence played for them.

Not saying that this is the case, I am saying we are only getting one half of the story here. I am very interested in this op's current situation in regards to filing a complaint.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

RussP
03-16-2012, 05:10
dwalker84, did you file your complaint with TPD?

Bill Lumberg
03-16-2012, 05:35
No, no. Meesah superman no home.

Bruce M
03-16-2012, 19:09
No, no. Meesah superman no home.:rofl::rofl:

carloglock19
03-16-2012, 21:59
I used almost all my battery on my phone reading this thread and Im a little dissapointed that we still don't know how long the tags had been expired.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

G26S239
03-16-2012, 23:59
I used almost all my battery on my phone reading this thread and Im a little dissapointed that we still don't know how long the tags had been expired.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The OP appears to be actively avoiding answering that question.

Bill Lumberg
03-17-2012, 07:05
He got embarrassed in front of his girlfriend/fiancé/wife (depends upon the day) and ten got punked out here for being a doob. The only thing he is actively doing is fulfilling his term as poster child for Darwinism and looking for an Internet board where he can sell his fabricated versions of his life and experiences and not get called out for it.

TBO
03-17-2012, 10:03
I agree that if the OP feels violated/wronged filing a complaint with the agency is the way to go.

kensteele
03-17-2012, 10:23
Just want to chime in here since I might have an opinion to offer. For civilians, it's not always easy to file a complaint against a local law enforcement officer, even if you feel wronged. You understand that, don't you?

Bill Lumberg
03-17-2012, 10:33
It's easy to file a complaint. It's not easy to get a complaint to stick when your version of wrongdoing describes the officer doing their job well.

SpringerTGO
03-17-2012, 11:18
There's a thread going in "Cop Talk" called "it's a lawsuit".
The video reminds me of the OP.

kensteele
03-17-2012, 13:09
It's easy to file a complaint. It's not easy to get a complaint to stick when your version of wrongdoing describes the officer doing their job well.

Yes it's really easy, just go down to the police station and fill out the paper work and then go home.

Sam Spade
03-17-2012, 13:50
Yes it's really easy, just go down to the police station and fill out the paper work and then go home.

Yup. Or phone it in. Or call the civilian review board. Some places let you do it online, I don't know if that includes Tucson.

ETA: Just checked. Tucson lets you file complaints online. Both with Internal Affairs, with the Independent Police Auditor and with something called the "Complaint Mediation Program". And my google-fu is notoriously weak.

B.Reid
03-17-2012, 17:26
Yes it's really easy, just go down to the police station and fill out the paper work and then go home.

I had an issue once, I just called his Sargent and made my complaint. I know it went on his record because the Officer tried to get me to reverse my statement. I didn't.

Bill Lumberg
03-17-2012, 17:38
So if the poster remembers anything actually wrong with the stop (as this far only his feelings were out of whack), he can seek remedy. As it should be.