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Sam Spade
03-06-2012, 18:10
On other threads, a common refrain has emerged. People--CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals".

Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Looking to get perspective from other points of view, so I may have follow on questions. TIA.

RedNine
03-06-2012, 18:17
I wouldn't care if they disarmed me. I know it's just for their safety. If they acted in a professional manner and didn't scratch my gun or anything, then I'd be glad to let them hold it for a few minutes.

BLau
03-06-2012, 18:22
I got disarmed at a stop once. The lady gave me back my pistol that I kept in my bag with the magazine partially ejected and with the round still chambered. She told me to have a nice day after my insurance card flew out of her hands and disappeared. She was very apologetic about losing my stuff. I didn't feel like I was mistreated at all.

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Angry Fist
03-06-2012, 18:28
You were driving 10 over, or had expired tags. That makes you a criminal.

coqui33
03-06-2012, 19:05
Treated like a criminal? I would say:

1. Being cuffed and detained for more than two hours.
2. Being arrested, booked, and jailed.
3. Being beaten, tased, or pepper-sprayed.
4. Being shot.

kensteele
03-06-2012, 19:15
The first thing that comes to my mind is you are treated like a criminal when you are [unlawfully] profiled.

Misty02
03-06-2012, 19:28
I cannot answer for other people and I know that ďtechnicallyĒ my answer will not be correct. Nonetheless, it is what I believe I would feel if it were to happen to me. Oddly, I would completely understand (and actually expect) to be frisked, handcuffed and the whole nine yards should I ever be unfortunate enough to be involved in a self-defense shooting; at least until all got sorted out (which may not happen until Iím at the station, or much later). I wouldnít feel as if I had been treated ďlike a criminalĒ in that circumstance. I understand (as of now) that things would be chaotic and there would likely be too many facts to sort out at the scene.

Your question, I believe, comes from the traffic stop threads. I have no issues with being disarmed during a stop. I would very much appreciate if my firearm was returned to me fully loaded (as when it was taken) so I donít have to stop at some empty lot and unnecessarily handle my weapon (increasing the potential of an unintended incident).

Being asked to exit the vehicle to be frisked (hands on the hood kind of thing) would quite likely make me feel as if I was a criminal, and itís pretty much the impression others passing by would get as well. Being handcuffed or asked to lie on the ground would fall in that category as well. Now, I have to balance this with the possibility that I was stopped for breaking a traffic law. Not exactly the kind of treatment people that have broken a traffic law would get, but I would feel I have less of a right to be treated in a dignified manner at that point. Needless to say, I would be praying that no one I know (and definitely no one I work with or one of my customers) drove by and witnessed it.

.

stillbill
03-06-2012, 19:39
This is my boss's story, no supporting documentation.

While showering after working out at local gym, police storm into locker room and point pistol at him. Ordered him to the floor.

Same thing to the person in another stall.

Turns out the person in the other stall had just robbed a bank.

Duration of encounter about 30 second for boss. Other person, a bit longer.

Would this count?

Sam Spade
03-06-2012, 19:43
Would this count?


Anything you think counts, counts. I'm looking for perceptions in general and to educate myself.

donthelegend
03-06-2012, 20:19
To me being "treated like a criminal" would probably be a combination of actions and the manner in which they occurred. For example, merely being frisked, especially after informing an officer that I was carrying a weapon, would not be a problem (nor would being disarmed for the duration of the stop). Being physically pulled from the vehicle, thrown against it or to the ground, handcuffed, etc, would to me qualify as being treated like a criminal. Being asked to step out of the vehicle, or come back to the officers vehicle do not bother me either.

During encounters with LEOs, I treat them with respect and I hope they return that (by which I mean that they act professionally, no more, no less). I've had a fair number of LEO encounters (my driving habits used to attract their attention fairly quickly ) and after all of them, I've got tons of respect for what they do, and no complaints about their conduct.

My two cents on the topic, but obviously everyone feels differently.

Bruce M
03-06-2012, 21:09
Very good question; there may be something to learn here.

janice6
03-06-2012, 21:15
I flashed a cop during an accident on a divided highway. She asked if I had a permit for "that thing". I said sure, do you want to see it and she smiled and said no, I trust you.

I have had nothing but good experiences with cops, no matter what I did. They are very professional

HKLovingIT
03-06-2012, 23:45
Depends...what's your position on me being in a Vegas penthouse snorting an 8-ball off of some of the local showgirls in various states of undress? Is that okay or should I not be doing that sort of thing? What if I have a doctor's note?

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/430/45875.jpg

In all seriousness Sam, or at least as much as I can muster at this hour...my scattered late night thoughts...

I recognize that having a LTCF does not make me Police Jr. or the Deputy's "extra help." I don't expect the fact that I own a firearm to get me a high five, a pat on the bottom and an "on your way good sir" free pass, unless I'm in Arizona, because that's where Gunsite is.

Conversely, I also don't expect my LTCF status to automatically result in shouted commands or drawn weapons under my nose during my normal day to day life and interaction with the world, to include any possible interaction with law enforcement over minor things such as traffic regulations or my dog was not on a leash. Unless I was in NY, NYC, NJ, DC, Philly or MD or other such strange places.

In relation to the common traffic stop scenario/complaint thread:
My thoughts below apply mainly to Joe Soccer Dad, Jane Soccer Mom who got pulled over and may or may not have a CCW - that's not really material to my line of thinking. I am not, nor have I ever been in law enforcement so this is just how I see things as Mr. Suburban member of the community.

If a person is being pulled over for an infraction such as an expired sticker, tag, etc., they might feel like the officer is "going over the top" by pulling them from the vehicle, patting them down and disarming them if they are carrying, etc. The citizen in a minor traffic stop scenario does not feel like he deserves that level of treatment because he knows (in his mind) that he is a "good guy" but the officer of course does not personally know the citizen or his reputation. He can only judge based on the person's behavior at the time of the stop and the reason he stopped him. I think this connection escapes the citizen in the heat of the moment, or entirely, and leads to citizen butt-hurt.

Maybe something that might not come to mind for the police, is that to the citizen, the stop is always going to be personal. To you, the officer, it's just the job, but the citizen is always going to take the stop personal to a degree. This might influence the level of butt-hurt expressed and the amount of patience the officer is going to need to possess.

All the above said - you have to take control of the person and situation such that they don't pose a danger to you or themselves, and do it in a way that is reasonable. But there is the rub. This is the gray area where people are always going to disagree about what is and isn't reasonable. I guess the rule of thumb a lot of people apply is "It's reasonable when it's done to someone else..." :rofl: Or, more seriously, it's almost like how the court defines pornography "I know it when I see it..." Yes, the law may state what is considered reasonable, but the law and reasonable or rational are not always in synch to the perception of an observer. Anyway...

Personally, I would be miffed about being pulled from the vehicle, patted down and disarmed for a routine traffic stop if I was being polite, was acting "normal" and being reasonable during the stop and it was for nothing more than a suspected traffic violation. I understand that during the stop it's the officer's discretion under the law to have me step out and to disarm me. I wouldn't consider that being treated like a criminal since I understand what is going on, but I would not like it all the same.

If a guy got pulled over for an expired inspection sticker and the officer proned him out at gunpoint and cuffed him while writing up the ticket, yeah that would be a bit much, CCW present or not. But that's pretty silly and I don't expect that happens all that much in real life. On the Internet, apparently it's every stop though. :rofl:

In general...

Since the last time I was pulled over was some 24 years ago for a busted turn signal in mom's station wagon, I'm not real concerned. Thus far, that has been the extent of my criminal career.http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/wavey%5B1%5D.gif

I have watched COPS enough to know that many times those who do things like traffic in drugs or rob convenience stores aren't exactly mindful of keeping their registration up to date. I have seen the dash cam footage where they pull a guy over for something minor and discover the 10 kilos of cocaine, so there is always that. I also really like it on "World's Wildest Whatever" when suspects try to run from the K-9 units with their pants drooping about their knees. You guys need to do more of that stuff and post it up on YTube, it's funny.

Answering this question is simple yet difficult. It's simple because I would feel like I was being treated like a criminal if I had done something criminal, and the police were arresting me. No duh. It's difficult to answer because my ability to put those two items together and come to that logical conclusion means that I will have difficulty truly understanding what people who freakout when they get a traffic ticket or who act like the rules don't apply to them, for whatever reason, are thinking. :dunno:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3251/thisaintnam128500245821.jpg

MinnesnowtaWild
03-07-2012, 00:30
You were driving 10 over, or had expired tags. That makes you a criminal.

In Minnesota, those are not considered "crimes". But I get what you're saying.

RenegadeGlocker
03-07-2012, 01:06
I think it is self-explanatory and independent of guns.

HarleyGuy
03-07-2012, 01:34
I have an Italian friend who has a funny way of saying "treat me like I was your brother"!

If an LEO pulls a speeder over, the chances of the speeder getting a ticket drops to "0" and we all know and understand that. However, if the speeder informs the LEO that he is also an off-duty LEO I'm sure the conversation if far different from what it would be if the speeder was a civilian with a concealed carry permit and a loaded firearm present.

I don't think any civilian in this situation can truly be expected to, or will be "treated like a brother" however, we are far from being an armed criminal.

The treatment should be the same as if no weapon was present.

Unistat
03-07-2012, 03:08
I would say I wouldn't feel like I was being treated like a criminal until I was taken to the station and booked. There is a world of difference between Reasonable Suspicion and Probable Cause.

All the questions, searching, gun-removal and unloading, and handcuffs out on the street doesn't mean jack to me if I can get in my car and leave at the end of the traffic stop.

While I might consider it over board, I'm not going to second guess what the officer feels is appropriate for his/her saftey. Especially since a nervous officer isn't good for MY saftey.

That said, I've never had an officer disarm me in any situation where they been interacting with me in an official way. Two traffic stops (my fault), two accidents (not my fault), and one encounter while I was working church security and a creepo started a fight with me.

F_G
03-07-2012, 05:48
I was a reserve deputy for 6 years a while back, I KNOW how I treated criminals. But, on the other end, I have never been treated like a criminal during a traffic stop, I always carry a weapon in my vehicle, and I always inform the officer initiating the stop I'm armed. In every instance I was asked where the weapon was, but was never disarmed. Only once was I removed from the vehicle and that was by an AZ DPS officer who asked me to sit in the cruiser with him while he did the paperwork. Now mind you, I've only been pulled over 3 times since my 18th birthday. We won't discuss my driving habits prior to that. :whistling:

It's obviously a matter of perception and a lot of ignorance. I've been on both sides of the badge and understand the feelings, reasons and perceptions of both sides. Officers need to do what they need to do to go home safely at night, if that offends some people then tough dooty.

eracer
03-07-2012, 06:47
For me, it's all about attitude. I have always been (and will continue to be) completely respectful and follow all instructions during any encounter with a LEO, insofar as those instructions are required by law.

All I expect is that I be treated with respect. I know that criminals sometimes play the respect card, hoping to catch an officer off guard, and that may make LEO's even more cautious. I have no problem with cautious. It's when you talk at me like I am a criminal after I've complied with everything you've asked of me that I get upset.

coqui33
03-07-2012, 07:03
I would say I wouldn't feel like I was being treated like a criminal until I was taken to the station and booked. There is a world of difference between Reasonable Suspicion and Probable Cause. All the questions, searching, gun-removal and unloading, and handcuffs out on the street doesn't mean jack to me if I can get in my car and leave at the end of the traffic stop.
In a documented case in the 1930s, a couple subjected to a traffic stop were detained and questioned for about 6 hours. They were never taken to the station. They were never booked. They were eventually released with a warning to not return to the county, Would such treatment have meant jack to you?

dosei
03-07-2012, 07:38
Let's see...
If I was arrested, I think I would feel like that meant I was being treated like a criminal.

Luvdux
03-07-2012, 07:50
I think in a traffic stop scenario, I am totally fine with the officer asking to see the weapon taking the mag out and clearing the weapon, or asking me to do the same. I think taking ammo out of the mag takes it a little far. Not a big deal but inconvenient, and not nessasary. If you have a permit it is because you are law biding and of sound mind (legally anyway). I would feel treated like a criminal if commanded to do the aboveas if I were a threat, was talked down to, had a weapon pulled on me, ect.

I would however ask to see a badge first ( if it was not visible) and ask if they were familiar with then particular weapon, just to insure safety. I would also be careful how I asked so I dont offend them as well.

Misty02
03-07-2012, 08:24
Let's see...
If I was arrested, I think I would feel like that meant I was being treated like a criminal.

Heck, at that point I would ďknowĒ it beyond doubt. It would no longer be a matter of ďthinkĒ, ďfeelĒ or ďbelieveĒ. It is no longer a perception but a reality. :)

.

fuzzy03cls
03-07-2012, 09:03
Having been the victim of being unfairly treated by cops, I cringe whenever I have any encounter. More then once have I been cuffed on the hood. For NO REASON. I know no reason is BS but whatever it happened to me 2 times.
Let go both times & no tickets.
In FL there's no duty to inform & I keep my mouth shut. I feel there is zero reason for a LEO to make me unholster my concealed firearm in a traffic stop. All it does is induce a dangerous situation for both parties. They take my gun unload it & then hand it back to me in pieces or on my back seat is BS. And at that point to answer the OP's is where I feel I'm being treated like a criminal. I know I'm not, the LEO doesn't but my CWFL, my DL & his computer are sufficient to see I'm no threat.
I understand why it happens that way but doesn't mean I have to like it & be all happy happy.

bluemonday
03-07-2012, 10:19
I think if folks who felt offended simply applied the Golden Rule and also put themselves in the LEO's shoes during the encounter, their attitude would change and the outcome would be much more positive.

At 43, I can honestly say I've only had one negative LEO encounter and that was due to something beyond my control: during a traffic stop, when the LEO was unloading my handgun for his own safety he was pointing it in a direction where the muzzle covered my son's head while he was strapped into his safety seat in the back. I was horrified but remained calm and did not let on how I felt. I just let it go, finished the encounter, and drove on.

Other than that, every single encounter (usually traffic stops) always came out positive and professional whether I got a ticket or not . . . and I think both sides felt this way.

Folks need to get a grip and find more important things to worry about that whether a LEO's attitude is "perfect" or not on that particular day. We're all human.

Unistat
03-07-2012, 11:14
In a documented case in the 1930s, a couple subjected to a traffic stop were detained and questioned for about 6 hours. They were never taken to the station. They were never booked. They were eventually released with a warning to not return to the county, Would such treatment have meant jack to you?

Are you kidding? The 1930's? What kind of answer are you looking for here? Of course that's inappropriate. And if you are seriously comparing policing back then to policing today, you and I don't really have anything more to talk about.

BamaTrooper
03-07-2012, 11:20
Having been the victim of being unfairly treated by cops, I cringe whenever I have any encounter. More then once have I been cuffed on the hood. For NO REASON. I know no reason is BS but whatever it happened to me 2 times.
Let go both times & no tickets.
In FL there's no duty to inform & I keep my mouth shut. I feel there is zero reason for a LEO to make me unholster my concealed firearm in a traffic stop. All it does is induce a dangerous situation for both parties. They take my gun unload it & then hand it back to me in pieces or on my back seat is BS. And at that point to answer the OP's is where I feel I'm being treated like a criminal. I know I'm not, the LEO doesn't but my CWFL, my DL & his computer are sufficient to see I'm no threat.I understand why it happens that way but doesn't mean I have to like it & be all happy happy.

At least you weren't when you got the documents you listed. At the time you were stopped, who is/was to say?

Also, the people stating handling the gun to load it creates an "unsafe" situation :faint:, really? REALLY?

ETA- let me state that I have removed guns from holsters, bags, etc... when they were available to the passengers or driver. Alabama permits are for the person, not the gun and I know of several people that bought used guns via private sales and the guns ended up being stolen; I have even encountered a stolen gun accompanied by a recent bill of sale from a shop (the issue was with the local PD, not the dealer or the new owner).

If I have a serial number, I run the gun, just like I run a VIN if there is no tag or the tag comes back unregistered. If the gun isn't stolen and the concealed carry laws don't seem to have been intentionally broken, the gun gets returned and I explain where/how to obtain a permit and answer any questions. Often providing the permit is enough for me if the person elects to notify me they have a gun. Hell, I don't remove everyone from the car and everyone that gets removed doesn't get patted down. They may get asked if they are carrying a weapon and if the response is "No" and some further interaction requires a search and a gun is located, we go from there with a permit check, arrest if applicable, etc...

I know I am from the south and although not all cops are gun guys, most (98%) aren't antigun/anti-2nd amendment people looking to make a statement on a gun owner.

blackjack
03-07-2012, 11:24
I like this line from the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act on this subject:

Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize a law enforcement officer to inspect any weapon properly concealed without probable cause that a crime has been committed.

Defines the situation pretty well, IMO. The LEO has to have PC of a crime in order to treat people like a criminal. It is not absolute insurance against being disarmed but it certainly provides a great point for a letter to the agency and the officer's supervisor.

blackjack
03-07-2012, 11:27
Never mind, not worth the effort.

RussP
03-07-2012, 13:00
On other threads, a common refrain has emerged. People--CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals".

Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Looking to get perspective from other points of view, so I may have follow on questions. TIA.I like this line from the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act on this subject:



Defines the situation pretty well, IMO. The LEO has to have PC of a crime in order to treat people like a criminal. It is not absolute insurance against being disarmed but it certainly provides a great point for a letter to the agency and the officer's supervisor.The question is what is "being treated like a criminal?" In your mind, what acts constitute being treated like a criminal?

TBO
03-07-2012, 14:30
An observation:

The posters who drop that term the most, are not present in this thread.

DScottHewitt
03-07-2012, 16:20
On other threads, a common refrain has emerged. People--CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals".

Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Looking to get perspective from other points of view, so I may have follow on questions. TIA.

Some people seem to feel that ANY TIME a LEO makes contact with them, he/she is "treating them like a criminal".


Scott

RussP
03-07-2012, 17:09
Some people seem to feel that ANY TIME a LEO makes contact with them, he/she is "treating them like a criminal".


ScottThat's good, and very true about some people.

guyandarifle
03-07-2012, 17:10
I've never had the experience (which suits me just fine) but I think I can postulate some things.

Anyone that is getting pulled over for a traffic citation has an idea of what to "expect" as it relates to whatever. For instance, in the few incidents I have been pulled over for any simple violation (couple lights out, apparently didn't stop "long enough" for one officer at a stop sign) I've NEVER been asked to do anything other than what one would "expect". I was cool, they were cool, no drama. When/if drama becomes involved for no apparent reason people's natural (and frankly understandable reaction) is at least some degree of "WTH?!".

Actually, IMO, I think it's "good" interaction with LEO that really sharpens the details of "bad" interaction with LEO. If somebody has never had anything but good, or at least "smooth" interaction with LEO and then run into an encounter where they're inexplicably faced with a profound increase in drama it's totally understandable to figure the variable isn't what THEY did (or didn't do) but the LEO in question.

So the next question is "how much" is tolerated before reaching that point? That's a squishy one as it's terribly subjective. Anything that could readily be attributed to everyone's safety, if handled reasonably, should be taken reasonably. If that means you get, for instance, disarmed then so be it. If that's HANDLED reasonably I think there's very few permit holders would have a problem with that. What "people" have a problem with is often, and interestingly, the same thing LEO says they have a problem with; attitude. If you're a jerk to a cop what exactly do you think his response will be? Or for that matter, SHOULD be? Thing is, if and LEO's attitude is beligerent and their (and sometimes their ever faithful supporters) consider that a "cry me a river" scenario you're fostering some bad blood. THAT does no good to Joe Citizen or the majority of "good cops".

(Sorry if I got a bit verbose.)

blackjack
03-07-2012, 17:24
The question is what is "being treated like a criminal?" In your mind, what acts constitute being treated like a criminal?

Excellent question - like most things, perceptions are everything and those occur in the moment, rather than with dispassionate reflection. If the LEO contact is about a traffic infraction and the driver has followed the required protocol in that state as regards notification, then the balance of the contact should proceed as it would had the contact been with a non-CCW licensed person. This would normally mean there would be no need for being taken from the vehicle, frisking, handling of the firearm, or handcuffs. Of course, all this assumes there have been no contrary indications in the initial contact/interaction or identification process and that records checks on the DL, CCW license, and vehicle registration are in order.

As I noted in my posting of the applicable line from the OK law on concealed carry, it seems that the law speaks clearly and simply on how the contact should proceed when there is no PC of a crime. Officer discretion is a significant part of the job. Used wisely, it is an effective tool/servant. Used unwisely, it can be a difficult master with a heavy cost.

talon
03-07-2012, 18:54
The click of the cuffs or looking down a muzzle would give me the impression that I am being treated as a criminal.

Being disarmed at a traffic stop with out any PC would just make me angry at a policy I dont agree with.

RussP
03-07-2012, 18:55
Folks, please, stick to the topic of the thread, the question asked in Post #1.

Thanks

talon
03-07-2012, 19:05
All the replies look "spot on" to me. What am I missing Russ ?

jdavionic
03-07-2012, 19:12
Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

No, simply being disarmed isn't something that I would categorize as being "treated like a criminal". Having endured being treated like a criminal as a youth, I can say that to me...being falsely accused of a crime, being harassed by law enforcement, or being treated in a disrespectful manner would all fall into the category of being "treated like a criminal".

I will give you an example, and not a hypothetical. I worked for a major department store when I was around 17. I worked in the stockroom. Another employee asked for assistance in getting him a large box that could fit several VCRs. We had issues of employee theft. I told him that I wouldn't help him, advised him to not do what I thought he was going to do, and essentially told him to leave.

He later got arrested that same day. The head of security and the local police pulled me into an office. They initially accused me of being involved. Then they said that they wanted me to sign an affidavit stating that I saw this other guy put VCRs in a large box and carry them down to receiving. I repeatedly told them that I couldn't do that because that was a lie. They threatened to handcuff me, march me out in front of fellow workers and customers, take me to the police station, and put me in with the local drunks. I still declined. They did everything that they said...excluding the last part with the drunks.

Yes, my parents got involved...and yes, they incurred numerous legal and subsequent financial issues. However I was 'treated like a criminal'. It is that feeling from an incident over 30 yrs ago that I will never forget as a prime example of being treated like a criminal.

Disarming? No. I have a tremendous amount of respect for LE. I view disarming during questioning or initial investigation as a means of ensuring their safety and mine.

Disrespect, arrogance, and a flagrant disregard for my rights...I view that as intolerable and being treated like a criminal.

NEOH212
03-08-2012, 03:34
I cannot answer for other people and I know that ďtechnicallyĒ my answer will not be correct. Nonetheless, it is what I believe I would feel if it were to happen to me. Oddly, I would completely understand (and actually expect) to be frisked, handcuffed and the whole nine yards should I ever be unfortunate enough to be involved in a self-defense shooting; at least until all got sorted out (which may not happen until Iím at the station, or much later). I wouldnít feel as if I had been treated ďlike a criminalĒ in that circumstance. I understand (as of now) that things would be chaotic and there would likely be too many facts to sort out at the scene.

Your question, I believe, comes from the traffic stop threads. I have no issues with being disarmed during a stop. I would very much appreciate if my firearm was returned to me fully loaded (as when it was taken) so I donít have to stop at some empty lot and unnecessarily handle my weapon (increasing the potential of an unintended incident).

Being asked to exit the vehicle to be frisked (hands on the hood kind of thing) would quite likely make me feel as if I was a criminal, and itís pretty much the impression others passing by would get as well. Being handcuffed or asked to lie on the ground would fall in that category as well. Now, I have to balance this with the possibility that I was stopped for breaking a traffic law. Not exactly the kind of treatment people that have broken a traffic law would get, but I would feel I have less of a right to be treated in a dignified manner at that point. Needless to say, I would be praying that no one I know (and definitely no one I work with or one of my customers) drove by and witnessed it.

.


:agree: 100%!

NEOH212
03-08-2012, 03:34
An observation:

The posters who drop that term the most, are not present in this thread.


:perfect10:

Misty02
03-08-2012, 05:09
At least you weren't when you got the documents you listed. At the time you were stopped, who is/was to say?

Also, the people stating handling the gun to load it creates an "unsafe" situation :faint:, really? REALLY?

ETA- let me state that I have removed guns from holsters, bags, etc... when they were available to the passengers or driver. Alabama permits are for the person, not the gun and I know of several people that bought used guns via private sales and the guns ended up being stolen; I have even encountered a stolen gun accompanied by a recent bill of sale from a shop (the issue was with the local PD, not the dealer or the new owner).

If I have a serial number, I run the gun, just like I run a VIN if there is no tag or the tag comes back unregistered. If the gun isn't stolen and the concealed carry laws don't seem to have been intentionally broken, the gun gets returned and I explain where/how to obtain a permit and answer any questions. Often providing the permit is enough for me if the person elects to notify me they have a gun. Hell, I don't remove everyone from the car and everyone that gets removed doesn't get patted down. They may get asked if they are carrying a weapon and if the response is "No" and some further interaction requires a search and a gun is located, we go from there with a permit check, arrest if applicable, etc...

I know I am from the south and although not all cops are gun guys, most (98%) aren't antigun/anti-2nd amendment people looking to make a statement on a gun owner.

The highlighted section applies to me. Please understand that not everyone that is armed out there has decades of experience like you or others may have. For me, racking the slide to load the chamber while inside the vehicle does not constitute safe handling as I would be violating (at a minimum) one of the safety rules, there is nothing Iíll be aiming at that Iím willing to destroy.

Perhaps I should be embarrassed to admit this but there are only two places thus far (in over 3 years of carrying) that Iíve racked the slide: (1) under controlled conditions aiming down range during practice or training (2) a safe room in my house that has outer-walls on three sides. In the safe room in my house (half-bathroom added) I used to sit on closed toilet to use filled cabinet under the sink as an additional backstop (plus the outer masonry wall), for a while now Iíve been using a sand filled 2+ feet bucket, but still in that safer room.

I do handle my G19 twice on weekdays, as I canít carry at work, to place and retrieve from the safe. I make sure Iím never in a rush while doing it and allow no distractions. Even without touching the trigger or messing with the slide, Iím extremely careful and attentive to those few seconds that Iím actually handling my firearm in public.

So, as you seeÖÖ. Yes, really! For someone like me, having to insert the mag and rack a round into the chamber, in less than what I consider the right conditions, is viewed as unsafe. I donít know if Iíll grow out of it in 5 or 10 more years from now. I doubt it. Iím definitely not at that stage now.

The question is, if I am given my firearm in a condition other than what it originally was, would I load it on the side of the road? I donít know. If Iím close to my home, odds are I wonít. If Iím not close I might consider doing it. I wonít lie though, Iíll be at least mildly ticked off that I was placed in a position where I had to do so. No huge drama, but donít expect me to be happy about it either.

ETA: A plead to you and other officers out there while performing a traffic stop on armed citizens that are anal retentive and relatively new to firearms like me; I would prefer you left my firearm fully functional somewhere in my vehicle where I cannot reach it until you leave than handing it to me unload it. I have no issues with helping you feel safer, but please, donít leave me in a condition where I may have to do something I consider unsafe after.
.

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 06:41
The first thing that comes to my mind is you are treated like a criminal when you are [unlawfully] profiled.


Is it always unlawful to be profiled? If not what kinds of profiling are legal?

BamaTrooper
03-08-2012, 08:18
Is it always unlawful to be profiled? If not what kinds of profiling are legal?

No. Don't confuse racial profiling aka biased based policing with profiling.

Racial profiling would be assuming assuming that all people of a certain race (or subset of that race) are committing certain crimes solely because they are that race.

Putting in known information about a crime or actor so as to obtain a "profile" is not illlegal.

BamaTrooper
03-08-2012, 08:31
ETA: A plead to you and other officers out there while performing a traffic stop on armed citizens that are anal retentive and relatively new to firearms like me; I would prefer you left my firearm fully functional somewhere in my vehicle where I cannot reach it until you leave than handing it to me unload it. I have no issues with helping you feel safer, but please, donít leave me in a condition where I may have to do something I consider unsafe after.[/FONT]
.

OK, I see your concern...you are uncomfortable handling/loading the gun. If the officer takes it out of your possession, or your reach, he does it to keep you from having access. I don't see where he would just leave it "... fully functional somewhere in my vehicle where I cannot reach it until you leave than handing it to me unload it. Maybe he could take it, leave it loaded and hand it back to you, put it in your trunk or whatever. Hell, if I had it and you asked me to reload it for you I would. I am more worried about you hurting someone with your car than your gun.
On a side note- maybe you would be more comfortable with a revolver? Loading and unloading is simpler, trigger is heavier and you might feel safer handling it.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 11:01
OK, I see your concern...you are uncomfortable handling/loading the gun. If the officer takes it out of your possession, or your reach, he does it to keep you from having access. I don't see where he would just leave it "... fully functional somewhere in my vehicle where I cannot reach it until you leave than handing it to me unload it. Maybe he could take it, leave it loaded and hand it back to you, put it in your trunk or whatever. Hell, if I had it and you asked me to reload it for you I would. I am more worried about you hurting someone with your car than your gun.
On a side note- maybe you would be more comfortable with a revolver? Loading and unloading is simpler, trigger is heavier and you might feel safer handling it.

You are partially correct; I do not wish to handle my firearm out in public where conditions are not optimal (by my standards). Iím sorry, BamaTrooper, but barring an actual self-defense situation, you would have difficulties convincing me that it is safe and prudent to handle oneís firearm out in public (whether it be a pistol or a revolver) beyond what is absolutely necessary.

It is not a matter of me not feeling comfortable handling a loaded gun; I do that daily when putting it and taking it out of the car safe and several times a month while at the range/training.

I have a feeling that if the day ever comes, and the officer elects to take possession of my firearm, I will be able to articulate my concerns and hopefully have him/her address them in a matter that satisfies both our needs for safety. :)


.

BamaTrooper
03-08-2012, 11:09
You are partially correct; I do not wish to handle my firearm out in public where conditions are not optimal (by my standards). Iím sorry, BamaTrooper, but barring an actual self-defense situation, you would have difficulties convincing me that it is safe and prudent to handle oneís firearm out in public (whether it be a pistol or a revolver) beyond what is absolutely necessary.

It is not a matter of me not feeling comfortable handling a loaded gun; I do that daily when putting it and taking it out of the car safe and several times a month while at the range/training.

I have a feeling that if the day ever comes, and the officer elects to take possession of my firearm, I will be able to articulate my concerns and hopefully have him/her address them in a matter that satisfies both our needs for safety. :)


.

Out of curiosity and not a nit-picking search for an argument, what is your definition of optimal?
On the second issue, let's just hope the officer has time and willing to listen to your articulation. Otherwise, you may end up either driving away with an unloaded gun or having to load in a less than optimal situation.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 11:41
Out of curiosity and not a nit-picking search for an argument, what is your definition of optimal?
On the second issue, let's just hope the officer has time and willing to listen to your articulation. Otherwise, you may end up either driving away with an unloaded gun or having to load in a less than optimal situation.

You can nit-pick and I wouldnít think youíre searching for an argument (even if you are, some arguments are incredibly entertaining :supergrin:).

It is my desire for officers out there to understand my concerns just as I try to understand theirs. There is no way for any of you to know unless we express them, right? My optimal standards for racking the slide and chambering a round would include being in a place where I can fully observe and comply with the 4 safety rules. You cannot properly observe the 4 safety rules while racking the slide to chamber a round on the side of the road inside your vehicle.

I do understand, and mentioned it in the original comment, that the officer may not have the time or desire to address my concerns. No huge drama, Iíll do what I believe best in that situation.

Iím usually polite, courteous and professional when dealing with others. It is always refreshing to receive the same kind of treatment back, although not expected. I may ask, he/she may express they are in a rush and unable to comply; if I believe theyíre sincere in what they told me there will be no hard feelings, Iíll understand and proceed to plan B.

.

redbaron007
03-08-2012, 11:48
I know this sounds vague; but it would depend on the circumstances.

I've been pulled over for speeding; was treated like a person who had been pulled over for speeding. Was the treatment different from when I was detained for assault in a fight? Yep. In both cases I was handled differently; in the speeding case...I was guilty; however, in the assault case, I was exonerated; but I was treated differently, until the investigation was concluded. Was I treated like a criminal in the assault case? Yep, and it was different from the speeding case. I was a criminal in one, but not in another.

Here is the definition of criminal:

crim∑i∑nal/ˈkrimənl/

Noun:A person who has committed a crime.

So, to answer the OPs question, it will depend on the person's feelings and emotions at the time of confrontation with LE.

:wavey:

red

RussP
03-08-2012, 12:09
So, to answer the OPs question, it will depend on the person's feelings and emotions at the time of confrontation with LE.This is a part, the part of the "treatment" equation ignored, denied and or :upeyes:ed when asked about in threads where "they treated me/shouldn't treat me like a criminal" is included in the discussion.

I go back to TBO's observation...An observation:

The posters who drop that term the most, are not present in this thread.
Where is everyone?

Chesafreak
03-08-2012, 13:04
I haven't been pulled over since I got my CHP about a year ago. I don't speed as much since then. If or when I get pulled over next time, even though my state does not require me to inform, I will do so anyway because I would want the same respect if I was the LEO.

I was treated "disrespectfully" (Edit: I wasn't really treated disrespectfully but somebody didn't get the humor) by a police officer once. I did deserve the ticket for speeding. I just thought that becuase of the circumstances I would get a warning, not a ticket. I was a Navy recruiter and was in my dress blues with full medals on my way to march in a Veteran's Day parade. I was running a little late because of traffic and was speeding. He gave me a ticket (which I did do the crime) which I didn't expect. The funny thing is that the ticket seemed to disappear, possibly because one of my recruit's mom was the clerk in that town. The ticket never appeared on my record.

Besides this one incident, I have always been treated well during a traffic stop most likely because I treated the LEO with respect and acted confident, respectful, and smiled, while keeping my hands on the wheel. I also turn my dome light on as I pull over if its dark. Some of those stops resulted in me getting a ticket, others a warning. I have no complaints.

Sometimes I wonder what percent of incidents in which the citizen claimed to have been treated disrespectfully was caused by the person appearing nervous or some other non-verbal clue that raised the officer's suspicion, vs. an officer who just was having a bad day or really did have an attitude problem? I think it would be reasonable to expect the LEO to have heightend stress responses based on verbal AND non-verbal cues we give off. If I act nervous, I expect the LEO would become a little more nervous as well. I think that if I was a LEO and the person I pulled over acted nervous, I would dig a little deeper to see what they were so nervous about.

If I act confident and respectful, I expect the LEO to be respectful as well. By respectful, I mean not talking like a jerk or putting me in handcuffs or on the ground unless I have actually committed a crime.

RussP
03-08-2012, 13:28
I was treated "disrespectfully" by a police officer once. I did deserve the ticket for speeding. I just thought that becuase of the circumstances I would get a warning, not a ticket. I was a Navy recruiter and was in my dress blues with full medals on my way to march in a Veteran's Day parade. I was running a little late because of traffic and was speeding. He gave me a ticket (which I did do the crime) which I didn't expect. The funny thing is that the ticket seemed to disappear, possibly because one of my recruit's mom was the clerk in that town. The ticket never appeared on my record.Let me see if I understand your post correctly.

To you, being "treated like a criminal", or "disrespectfully" as you say, is being given a ticket for speeding, which you admit you were guilty of, while wearing your Navy dress blues with full medals.

Then, interestingly, the Clerk of The Court, the mother of one of your recruits, made your ticket disappear, never appearing on your record.

Do you see anything wrong with that, sir?

Chesafreak
03-08-2012, 13:33
Let me see if I understand your post correctly.

To you, being "treated like a criminal", or "disrespectfully" as you say, is being given a ticket for speeding, which you admit you were guilty of, while wearing your Navy dress blues with full medals.

Then, interestingly, the Clerk of The Court, the mother of one of your recruits, made your ticket disappear, never appearing on your record.

Do you see anything wrong with that, sir?

So you read my whole post and that's what you picked up out of it? When I put it in ""'s, I thought I was being sarcastic and not stating that I was actually treated with disrespect. Maybe you didn't get the dry humor? Did you bother to read my last sentence where I stated what being treated disrespectful meant to me?

saxconnection
03-08-2012, 13:45
I'll throw my $.02 in. I would be thought of as "treated like a criminal", if upon a stop and my admission of carrying (while being respectful), I was forcefully taken out of my vehicle, frisked, perhaps restrained in some way. Basically, I would feel like a criminal if the LEO unnecessarily escalated the situation. JMHO.

Adam

Just an addition: I have never received a ticket I did not deserve, but I have been pulled over unjustly (I took an off-ramp at above the cautioned speed), the officer seemed visibly upset that I wasn't driving while intoxicated (I had just gotten off a 12 hour night shift. Bad time of morning to be out and about.) I dealt with him in a respectful way, and paid the ticket for my registration being 5 days late (again, 12 hour shifts make it hard to go to the SOS sometimes), which was the only thing he could get me on (and it seemed he needed to get something for stopping me). The officer was less than respectful, but I wasn't treated like a criminal.

RussP
03-08-2012, 14:04
I was treated "disrespectfully" by a police officer once. I did deserve the ticket for speeding. I just thought that becuase of the circumstances I would get a warning, not a ticket. I was a Navy recruiter and was in my dress blues with full medals on my way to march in a Veteran's Day parade. I was running a little late because of traffic and was speeding. He gave me a ticket (which I did do the crime) which I didn't expect. The funny thing is that the ticket seemed to disappear, possibly because one of my recruit's mom was the clerk in that town. The ticket never appeared on my record.Let me see if I understand your post correctly.

To you, being "treated like a criminal", or "disrespectfully" as you say, is being given a ticket for speeding, which you admit you were guilty of, while wearing your Navy dress blues with full medals.

Then, interestingly, the Clerk of The Court, the mother of one of your recruits, made your ticket disappear, never appearing on your record.

Do you see anything wrong with that, sir?
So you read my whole post and that's what you picked up out of it? When I put it in ""'s, I thought I was being sarcastic and not stating that I was actually treated with disrespect. Maybe you didn't get the dry humor? Did you bother to read my last sentence where I stated what being treated disrespectful meant to me?Well, yes.

No, didn't get the dry humor. Guess the ""'s didn't work for me...:supergrin:

Yes, I did read the last sentence. Just wanted to get this first part out of the way. The question really had to do more with a recruit's mother purging a violation from your driving record.

RussP
03-08-2012, 14:08
I haven't been pulled over since I got my CHP about a year ago. I don't speed as much since then. If or when I get pulled over next time, even though my state does not require me to inform, I will do so anyway because I would want the same respect if I was the LEO.

Besides this one incident, I have always been treated well during a traffic stop most likely because I treated the LEO with respect and acted confident, respectful, and smiled, while keeping my hands on the wheel. I also turn my dome light on as I pull over if its dark. Some of those stops resulted in me getting a ticket, others a warning. I have no complaints.

Sometimes I wonder what percent of incidents in which the citizen claimed to have been treated disrespectfully was caused by the person appearing nervous or some other non-verbal clue that raised the officer's suspicion, vs. an officer who just was having a bad day or really did have an attitude problem? I think it would be reasonable to expect the LEO to have heightend stress responses based on verbal AND non-verbal cues we give off. If I act nervous, I expect the LEO would become a little more nervous as well. I think that if I was a LEO and the person I pulled over acted nervous, I would dig a little deeper to see what they were so nervous about.That question in bold is, again, one which people complaining of being treated poorly ignore or claim they did not act at all with the temperament they show in their internet post.If I act confident and respectful, I expect the LEO to be respectful as well. By respectful, I mean not talking like a jerk or putting me in handcuffs or on the ground unless I have actually committed a crime.You're using "respectful." Are you equating "respectful" and "treated like a criminal"?

I ask because of your three criteria: talking like a jerk, putting you in handcuffs, and putting you on the ground.

Are they independently equal?

kensteele
03-08-2012, 14:18
Is it always unlawful to be profiled? If not what kinds of profiling are legal?

No I was only referring to unlawful profiling. The lawful kind of profiling is ok.

I would think a person feels like a criminal when he or she is unlawfully profiled, for example stopping a car just because the driver looks like he or she is from peru and then asking a lot of questions about marijuana.

I think if you are told to try to stop and search big boxy rental trunks looking for stolen lawn equipment, I don't see any reason why you can't profile those types of vehicles.

BamaTrooper
03-08-2012, 14:39
No I was only referring to unlawful profiling. The lawful kind of profiling is ok.

I would think a person feels like a criminal when he or she is unlawfully profiled, for example stopping a car just because the driver looks like he or she is from peru and then asking a lot of questions about marijuana.

I think if you are told to try to stop and search big boxy rental trunks looking for stolen lawn equipment, I don't see any reason why you can't profile those types of vehicles.

Stopping a person based on a wanted bulletin or BOLO wouldn't be profiling. Stopping only hispanic drivers in the aboved mentioned vans would be wrong. ETA- unless the BOLOsaid XYZ van driven by a hispanic male.

Chesafreak
03-08-2012, 15:00
That question in bold is, again, one which people complaining of being treated poorly ignore or claim they did not act at all with the temperament they show in their internet post.You're using "respectful." Are you equating "respectful" and "treated like a criminal"?

I ask because of your three criteria: talking like a jerk, putting you in handcuffs, and putting you on the ground.

Are they independently equal?

I realize this is highly subjective, but the way I would define "being treated like a criminal" would be if I was shown disrespect (threats, cursing, or sarcasm beyond what would be considered humorous) from the officer, was removed from my car and handcuffed, or had my pistol taken for the duration of the stop... if I had committed nothing more than a traffic violation.

I have never had any LEO contact since I got my CHP. Hopefully my experience doesn't change next time.

Dukeboy01
03-08-2012, 15:08
A few months back I pulled a lady over for tailgating me on I-75 while I was on the way into work. I'm a detective, wear plainclothes, and am currently assigned an unmarked silver Crown Vic. You have to be really obnoxious to get me to bother with traffic enforcement any more, particularly before eight AM.

Anyway, I made contact with her, got her information, went back to my car, and wrote her. I returned to the car, handed her the ticket and started going through my canned spiel about her court date, how to pay the fine by mail if she just want to plead guilty instead, how to contest the ticket if she wants to, etc.

I was winding up when I noticed that she's getting really upset, looking as if she was about to cry. I asked what was wrong and she replied "Why are you yelling at me?"

I wasn't "yelling." You can ask my wife, kids, and, to a lesser extent, my co- workers: When I am yelling, the whole world seems as if it's about to end. I realized that my direct tone of voice and efforts to be sure I was heard over the rush hour traffic noise were being interpreted as "anger" by the lady on the traffic stop. I'm sure she feels as if she was treated like a criminal when that was certainly not my intention.

Cops forget that every single time we interact with a civilian that the interaction is one of the most important things that has ever happened to them and that they literally will remember for the rest of their lives, even if it's something completely routine and forgetful to us, like issuing a traffic citation. I believe that in a huge majority of these cases where someone feels that they were "treated like a criminal," if you asked the officer about it a week later he would have no recollection of the encounter at all. Speaking for myself, I know I need to be constantly reminded that every time I speak with a civilian that the interaction, however mundane, is a really big deal to them.

RussP
03-08-2012, 15:22
I realize this is highly subjective, but the way I would define "being treated like a criminal" would be if I was shown disrespect (threats, cursing, or sarcasm beyond what would be considered humorous) from the officer, was removed from my car and handcuffed, or had my pistol taken for the duration of the stop... if I had committed nothing more than a traffic violation.

I have never had any LEO contact since I got my CHP. Hopefully my experience doesn't change next time.Thank you...

poodleplumber
03-08-2012, 15:30
I have been stopped a couple of times while carrying - once for speeding (but nothing crazy), once for having a tail light out, maybe another for something I don't remember. Each time, I informed the officer I was armed and produced my CWL along with my DL, and each time the officer responded by asking me where the firearm was, and instructing me politely to keep my hands on the wheel and away from the holster. I have never had an officer disarm me, but with cops being shot at traffic stops with increasing frequency, I can understand it.

If after a simple traffic stop an officer responds to my cooperation by frisking me or cuffing me I would start to be offended. Part of my reason for being offended would be the feeling that I was being "treated like a criminal," i.e. being treated as a dangerous person for no reason after demonstrating a cooperative attitude.

FWIW, as a teenager I was subjected to very aggressive questioning about a watch that was stolen from a store, including being falsely told that a friend had confessed and implicated me as a colleague in the theft. That made me feel much more like I was treated like a criminal than having an officer look out for his or her own safety upon being informed that I was armed. I wasn't cuffed or frisked, but I was assumed to be guilty of something I didn't do, apparently because of my age.

To me, the big picture is one of attitude: I readily accept the need for officer safety, and my encounters have proven that LEOs can handle the situation in a respectful and courteous manner. My guess is that a lot of complaints that are phrased that way are because an officer is more rude or aggressive than he or she needs to be, and another substantial number are because the complainers are hacked off about getting a ticket at all.

HKLovingIT
03-08-2012, 15:34
A few months back I pulled a lady over for tailgating me on I-75 while I was on the way into work. I'm a detective, wear plainclothes, and am currently assigned an unmarked silver Crown Vic. You have to be really obnoxious to get me to bother with traffic enforcement any more, particularly before eight AM.

Anyway, I made contact with her, got her information, went back to my car, and wrote her. I returned to the car, handed her the ticket and started going through my canned spiel about her court date, how to pay the fine by mail if she just want to plead guilty instead, how to contest the ticket if she wants to, etc.

I was winding up when I noticed that she's getting really upset, looking as if she was about to cry. I asked what was wrong and she replied "Why are you yelling at me?"

I wasn't "yelling." You can ask my wife, kids, and, to a lesser extent, my co- workers: When I am yelling, the whole world seems as if it's about to end. I realized that my direct tone of voice and efforts to be sure I was heard over the rush hour traffic noise were being interpreted as "anger" by the lady on the traffic stop. I'm sure she feels as if she was treated like a criminal when that was certainly not my intention.

Cops forget that every single time we interact with a civilian that the interaction is one of the most important things that has ever happened to them and that they literally will remember for the rest of their lives, even if it's something completely routine and forgetful to us, like issuing a traffic citation. I believe that in a huge majority of these cases where someone feels that they were "treated like a criminal," if you asked the officer about it a week later he would have no recollection of the encounter at all. Speaking for myself, I know I need to be constantly reminded that every time I speak with a civilian that the interaction, however mundane, is a really big deal to them.

That's a bit of what I was getting at in my post. To the person pulled over the interaction is very personal so maybe sometimes they get upset and cry, maybe they get embarrassed, maybe they get mad. To the officer it's just routine and part of the job. Both people involved experience the same interaction/event very differently. Interesting, and like I said this difference in perception is probably what leads to the "I was treated like a common criminal..." and butt-hurt.

Ask someone about the time they got pulled over for speeding and got a ticket and they can recount the whole thing (with after the fact embellishment :supergrin:) in great detail even years later. Ask the officer who pulled him over and I'm sure he'd be like "What?" :dunno: I can recall still what the trooper who pulled me over for a busted turn signal in mom's station wagon 24 years ago looked like, what he said and the result of the stop (written warning - improper lane change). It's funny now, not so much then. I'm sure he is by now retired in sunny Florida and obviously does not remember my criminal escapade.

Chesafreak
03-08-2012, 15:47
To me, the big picture is one of attitude: I readily accept the need for officer safety, and my encounters have proven that LEOs can handle the situation in a respectful and courteous manner. My guess is that a lot of complaints that are phrased that way are because an officer is more rude or aggressive than he or she needs to be, and another substantial number are because the complainers are hacked off about getting a ticket at all.

Right on the money IMO.

douggmc
03-08-2012, 15:59
Within the scope of a traffic/moving violation stop while I'm lawfully CCWing ... I would say I would feel l was being treated like a criminal (or very close) if: The LEO insists on handling my weapon or forcing me to handle it in any way in the name of his "safety".

To do so is entirely illogical and needless at best and downright dangerous at worst.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 16:06
A few months back I pulled a lady over for tailgating me on I-75 while I was on the way into work. I'm a detective, wear plainclothes, and am currently assigned an unmarked silver Crown Vic. You have to be really obnoxious to get me to bother with traffic enforcement any more, particularly before eight AM.

Anyway, I made contact with her, got her information, went back to my car, and wrote her. I returned to the car, handed her the ticket and started going through my canned spiel about her court date, how to pay the fine by mail if she just want to plead guilty instead, how to contest the ticket if she wants to, etc.

I was winding up when I noticed that she's getting really upset, looking as if she was about to cry. I asked what was wrong and she replied "Why are you yelling at me?"

I wasn't "yelling." You can ask my wife, kids, and, to a lesser extent, my co- workers: When I am yelling, the whole world seems as if it's about to end. I realized that my direct tone of voice and efforts to be sure I was heard over the rush hour traffic noise were being interpreted as "anger" by the lady on the traffic stop. I'm sure she feels as if she was treated like a criminal when that was certainly not my intention.

Cops forget that every single time we interact with a civilian that the interaction is one of the most important things that has ever happened to them and that they literally will remember for the rest of their lives, even if it's something completely routine and forgetful to us, like issuing a traffic citation. I believe that in a huge majority of these cases where someone feels that they were "treated like a criminal," if you asked the officer about it a week later he would have no recollection of the encounter at all. Speaking for myself, I know I need to be constantly reminded that every time I speak with a civilian that the interaction, however mundane, is a really big deal to them.

What you have shared is truly beyond any expectations Iíve ever had when dealing with anyone (not just officers). Your attention and consideration to the feelings of others is truly impressive. :)

Iím a tad easier than the lady you stopped; it would take a lot for me to feel offended. Short of threatening me, frisking or putting cuffs of me Iíll probably think the encounter met my expectations. Iíll be mildly ticked if my weapon is returned in parts, but in the big scheme that is no big deal either.

You are very correct though, what is an everyday stop for an officer, is more of a memorable experience for the person being stopped. There are some stops from my past that Iím not likely to forget in this lifetime and I bet the officer forgot that very day.

.

Steve50
03-08-2012, 16:26
A few months back I pulled a lady over for tailgating me on I-75 while I was on the way into work. I'm a detective, wear plainclothes, and am currently assigned an unmarked silver Crown Vic. You have to be really obnoxious to get me to bother with traffic enforcement any more, particularly before eight AM.

Anyway, I made contact with her, got her information, went back to my car, and wrote her. I returned to the car, handed her the ticket and started going through my canned spiel about her court date, how to pay the fine by mail if she just want to plead guilty instead, how to contest the ticket if she wants to, etc.

I was winding up when I noticed that she's getting really upset, looking as if she was about to cry. I asked what was wrong and she replied "Why are you yelling at me?"

I wasn't "yelling." You can ask my wife, kids, and, to a lesser extent, my co- workers: When I am yelling, the whole world seems as if it's about to end. I realized that my direct tone of voice and efforts to be sure I was heard over the rush hour traffic noise were being interpreted as "anger" by the lady on the traffic stop. I'm sure she feels as if she was treated like a criminal when that was certainly not my intention.

Cops forget that every single time we interact with a civilian that the interaction is one of the most important things that has ever happened to them and that they literally will remember for the rest of their lives, even if it's something completely routine and forgetful to us, like issuing a traffic citation. I believe that in a huge majority of these cases where someone feels that they were "treated like a criminal," if you asked the officer about it a week later he would have no recollection of the encounter at all. Speaking for myself, I know I need to be constantly reminded that every time I speak with a civilian that the interaction, however mundane, is a really big deal to them.

Excellent ^^

BamaTrooper
03-08-2012, 16:32
I will be working 4 hours traffic enforcement tonight. I am going to wear my Ikam glasses so I can remember the stops tomorrow. If any of them have CCW, we will see how it goes and I will ask them their thoughts. If anything is fit to print, I'll go all Cliff Notes for ya.

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 16:56
...

I think if you are told to try to stop and search big boxy rental trunks looking for stolen lawn equipment, I don't see any reason why you can't profile those types of vehicles.

Thanks. I might suggest that a bit more than big boxy rental truck might be needed in this immediate area. Ten blocks from here there is a fairly substantial U-Haul depot so there can be alot of rental trucks in this area. :supergrin:

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 17:20
Within the scope of a traffic/moving violation stop while I'm lawfully CCWing ... I would say I would feel l was being treated like a criminal (or very close) if: The LEO insists on handling my weapon or forcing me to handle it in any way in the name of his "safety".

To do so is entirely illogical and needless at best and downright dangerous at worst.

So you're saying that under no circumstances of a traffic stop should the officer disarm you? What if your car happens to be similar to a car being sought in a crime? How about the time of day and/or neighborhood - would it be illogical to take your gun from you if you were stopped in an area known for drug transactions?

RussP
03-08-2012, 17:21
I will be working 4 hours traffic enforcement tonight. I am going to wear my Ikam glasses so I can remember the stops tomorrow. If any of them have CCW, we will see how it goes and I will ask them their thoughts. If anything is fit to print, I'll go all Cliff Notes for ya.Stay Safe!!!!

Misty02
03-08-2012, 17:27
I will be working 4 hours traffic enforcement tonight. I am going to wear my Ikam glasses so I can remember the stops tomorrow. If any of them have CCW, we will see how it goes and I will ask them their thoughts. If anything is fit to print, I'll go all Cliff Notes for ya.

Cool. :) Just remember though, you can’t please everyone all the time. Having that as a goal would drive even a saint over the edge.


ETA: My hat goes off to you guys. I wouldn’t be able to handle a job where I would have to deal, day-in and day-out with overly sensitive people.

.

TBO
03-08-2012, 17:30
Cool. :) Just remember though, you canít please everyone all the time. Having that as a goal would drive even a saint over the edge.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/TheeBadOne/TBO/AngelDevil2.gif

Misty02
03-08-2012, 17:58
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/TheeBadOne/TBO/AngelDevil2.gif

I think I would get an ulcer if I had to deal day-in and day-out with overly sensitive people.

.

norm357
03-08-2012, 18:21
I flashed a cop during an accident on a divided highway. She asked if I had a permit for "that thing". I said sure, do you want to see it and she smiled and said no, I trust you.

I have had nothing but good experiences with cops, no matter what I did. They are very professional

Same here.

davsco
03-08-2012, 18:32
So you're saying that under no circumstances of a traffic stop should the officer disarm you? What if your car happens to be similar to a car being sought in a crime? How about the time of day and/or neighborhood - would it be illogical to take your gun from you if you were stopped in an area known for drug transactions?

i certainly don't think that EVERYONE stopped in an area known for drugs, or EVERYONE stopped at 3am should, as a matter of course, be disarmed.

remember, we're talking about folks that have been forthright and admitted they are carrying, not folks that said they weren't carrying yet the officer can see the gun in their waistband. or worse, folks that said no gun yet may very well have one.

if police are duly concerned with officer safety (not a bad thing), then everyone pulled for traffic stops should have to exit the vehicle and be searched for a weapon. i personally think it is overbearing for folks to be disarmed at traffic stops for no reason other than being legally armed. One because i believe in presumption of innocence, and two there is a chance of an accidental discharge every time a loaded gun is handled.

all that said, this issue is essentially moot for me. i have never had any issues relating to this nor am i personally aware of anyone that has. so to my knowledge, when and while police may legally disarm for no reason whatsoever, they seem to be reasonable in this regard.

douggmc
03-08-2012, 18:41
So you're saying that under no circumstances of a traffic stop should the officer disarm you?
..

No. Which is why I wrote and qualified it as "Within the scope of a traffic/moving violation ..."

RussP
03-08-2012, 18:42
I think I would get an ulcer if I had to deal day-in and day-out with overly sensitive people.

.:whistling:

dosei
03-08-2012, 18:55
Cool. :) Just remember though, you canít please everyone all the time. Having that as a goal would drive even a saint over the edge.

:whistling:

:rofl:

Chad Rogers
03-08-2012, 18:58
On other threads, a common refrain has emerged. People--CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals".

Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Looking to get perspective from other points of view, so I may have follow on questions. TIA.

For many it simply means that they weren't able to get away with whatever they felt like doing.

MarkM32
03-08-2012, 19:12
Well, as both a CHP holder(Concealed Handgun Permit) and a LEO, I can see both sides of this arguement. Generally, experienced LEOs tend to handle this better than the inexperienced. As I stated in another thread, it mainly depends on how you conduct the stop with the officer. Although Virginia is not a "notify" state, I expect to be told you are armed if I stop you. IMO, the best way to do this is to hand your CCW,CHP, whatever it is referred to in your state, along with your license, and keep your hands on the wheel. I'll then ask where it is, ask you to step out, I'll remove the weapon, ask you to return to your vehicle, and conduct business as usual.

There are a lot of nervous LEOs out there, and depending on the night their having it may be a different story. Say, they just came from a shooting or something of the like, they are going to be a bit more on edge.

Honestly, it kind of annoys me when people complain about this. I understand in some cases, perhaps you are drawn on, handcuffed, placed in the back seat. Yes, then I agree. But some complain for having to step out and relinquish their weapon, that is not being treated like a criminal.

Just my .02

Misty02
03-08-2012, 20:44
Well, as both a CHP holder(Concealed Handgun Permit) and a LEO, I can see both sides of this arguement. Generally, experienced LEOs tend to handle this better than the inexperienced. As I stated in another thread, it mainly depends on how you conduct the stop with the officer. Although Virginia is not a "notify" state, I expect to be told you are armed if I stop you. IMO, the best way to do this is to hand your CCW,CHP, whatever it is referred to in your state, along with your license, and keep your hands on the wheel. I'll then ask where it is, ask you to step out, I'll remove the weapon, ask you to return to your vehicle, and conduct business as usual.

There are a lot of nervous LEOs out there, and depending on the night their having it may be a different story. Say, they just came from a shooting or something of the like, they are going to be a bit more on edge.

Honestly, it kind of annoys me when people complain about this. I understand in some cases, perhaps you are drawn on, handcuffed, placed in the back seat. Yes, then I agree. But some complain for having to step out and relinquish their weapon, that is not being treated like a criminal.

Just my .02

In my non-LEO mind, I believe I would opt for one side of the equation or the other: (1) I assume conditions are safe and allow the person to remain armed and in their vehicle, or (2) Something tells me something isnít right, I disarm the person and keep them outside the vehicle where there is more visibility of their hands and actions/movement.

Iím curious; would it not be more dangerous to allow someone you feel apprehensive about to return to their environment (their vehicle) where only they know what is inside (possibly other weapons)? I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant with ďask you to return to your vehicleĒ.

.

MarkM32
03-08-2012, 23:06
Absolutely. If I felt someone whom I removed a weapon from was a threat, I would certainly ask them to remain in front of my vehicle. However, if someone is being straight up with me I'm going to return that. I have training which helps pickup on things. Besides that, "are there any other weapons in the vehicle?" Is something else I ask.

Each situation is different, and if I felt I was in danger I wouldn't allow certain things. If that makes sense.

Also, whether or not I feel something is wrong, I would still check the gun to make sure it's legal.

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Misty02
03-08-2012, 23:41
Absolutely. If I felt someone whom I removed a weapon from was a threat, I would certainly ask them to remain in front of my vehicle. However, if someone is being straight up with me I'm going to return that. I have training which helps pickup on things. Besides that, "are there any other weapons in the vehicle?" Is something else I ask.

Each situation is different, and if I felt I was in danger I wouldn't allow certain things. If that makes sense.

Also, whether or not I feel something is wrong, I would still check the gun to make sure it's legal.

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It’s a bit late and I’m afraid my comprehension level has dropped to 0 (it happens when folks get old and stay up beyond their bed time :embarassed:). Not that I’m implying I posses a high comprehension level during the daylight hours, mind you.

If the weapon is removed for officer safety because the armed person could represent a possible threat, why not remain highly cautious through the exchange? If you believe someone is being straight up with you and you don’t feel there is a possible threat, then why disarm the individual? I know I’m likely misinterpreting what you are stating, but it almost sounds like the mere reason for the disarming someone that volunteered the information, when they didn’t have to, is to check the serial number.

.

MarkM32
03-09-2012, 02:50
Honestly, it's much different reading it here, even me trying to explain it with out it taking place is difficult. In most cases, you can tell whether or not a person is suspect. Body language, eye contact, the way the talk, there are many ways to interpret this. With no set sop or sog regarding this, it is how I feel. If someone seems fully cooperative, they shouldn't have an issue if I check the firearm. Is this because I want to check it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Like I said, individual circumstances vary. Either way, I want whatever weapons they are immediately available to. That is for my safety, and theirs really.

I think I can see where you're coming from, and I understand what you're saying. It's very difficult though to explain it. I guess now that I am racking my brain at what I do, I can say I would probably ask them to remain at the front of my vehicle. I have allowed them to return to their vehicle before, whether for cold or rain. That just goes back to each situation being unique.

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Misty02
03-09-2012, 06:44
Honestly, it's much different reading it here, even me trying to explain it with out it taking place is difficult. In most cases, you can tell whether or not a person is suspect. Body language, eye contact, the way the talk, there are many ways to interpret this. With no set sop or sog regarding this, it is how I feel. If someone seems fully cooperative, they shouldn't have an issue if I check the firearm. Is this because I want to check it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Like I said, individual circumstances vary. Either way, I want whatever weapons they are immediately available to. That is for my safety, and theirs really.

I think I can see where you're coming from, and I understand what you're saying. It's very difficult though to explain it. I guess now that I am racking my brain at what I do, I can say I would probably ask them to remain at the front of my vehicle. I have allowed them to return to their vehicle before, whether for cold or rain. That just goes back to each situation being unique.

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I know what you mean and apologize for attempting to have you pin point something specific, I’m well aware that in reading situations/people all senses are involved and receiving feedback that lead us to either feel or believe a certain thing. Reading people through text without the ability to receive input for our other senses is not easy either; nonetheless, from your last post, I get the impression I possibly misread you. Once more, I apologize for that.

My oldest son gave some thought to becoming a police officer, his girlfriend did more than that but injured her knee jumping the 6 foot wall (after having done it a multitude to times in practice). She is still in therapy as her doctor didn’t believe surgery was the way to go. I would be lying if I attempted to say that I was sorry neither went all the way through. Not that there is such a thing as a safe profession/job, just that being an officer is particularly dangerous.

You should do what you believe is right based on your training. I sincerely hope, and request, that you find a way to discard this conversation we’ve had. I have no right, and you cannot allow anything I’ve said or questioned you on, to create any doubts in your mind.

While I have absolutely no training in what officers do or understand procedures, it is not difficult for me to place myself in the shoes of an officer to understand what is meant by “officer safety”; an even higher impact when I place one of my kids in their shoes.

An officer would have my full cooperation, not to exceed a certain point, without much complaining when I perceive actions (which I may not feel necessary) are for his/her safety. Not to mean I would choose the side of the road to engage in a discussion about motive, but I wouldn’t be as understanding about being disarmed if I believed the reason for doing so was to run the serial number on my firearm and not for personal safety.

If it is any consolation, I’m pretty certain that if I were an officer people would probably hate my guts; I would take every precaution allowed in the rule book to ensure personal safety, even when dealing with grandmothers like me. I’ve seen officers make traffic stops on busy intersections without having drivers pull over to safer areas and their attention as they approach the driver’s side be distracted by traffic. I’ve just driven by shaking my head and praying that driver (or a passenger in the vehicle) would not be one with some outstanding warrant that would have an illogical reaction to being stopped for a traffic violation.

My best wishes to you and others out there.

.

davsco
03-09-2012, 08:00
But some complain for having to step out and relinquish their weapon, that is not being treated like a criminal.



i think that falls under the def'n of being treated like a criminal, with no reasonable suspiscion, you disarm everyone who is legally carrying a weapon and who discloses this to you.

i'm sure it's legal for you to do this, but every handling of a loaded weapon increases the chance of an accident.

and if you are running serial numbers then that is definitely treating every legal CCW holder as criminals.

legal, i guess so; reasonably or morally right, not in my book.

Bruce M
03-09-2012, 08:17
While perhaps not all, my suspicion is that in a considerable number of traffic stops the license plate is run to determine whether or not the car is stolen. My guess is that in more than a few jurisdictions, if the officer calls in the traffic stop with presumably a location and a license plate, that the dispatcher automatically runs the license plate to check to see if the car is stolen. Would that make the driver feel as if they were treated as a criminal? Further my guess is that in many traffic stops it will be routine to check not only the status of the driver's license, but also to run him to check for warrants. I am not sure that elevates the driver to the status of being dealt with as a criminal.

TBO
03-09-2012, 10:08
i think that falls under the def'n of being treated like a criminal, with no reasonable suspiscion, you disarm everyone who is legally carrying a weapon and who discloses this to you.

i'm sure it's legal for you to do this, but every handling of a loaded weapon increases the chance of an accident.

and if you are running serial numbers then that is definitely treating every legal CCW holder as criminals.

legal, i guess so; reasonably or morally right, not in my book.
At what point does a Cop know the person is:


Legally Carrying
Law Abiding

Just by the person saying "I'm legally carrying"?

MarkM32
03-09-2012, 10:12
Misty, no harm done. I can understand where you're coming from. In many cases I agree with you.

Davsco, no two people perceive things the same. Where as having the person come out of the vehicle and relinquish their firearm makes you feel as though you're being considered to be, therefore being treated like a criminal. I disagree. It is not that I check serial numbers all the time, it is simply for my safety, as well as yours. If I allow you to keep the weapon, and then you make some.sudden movement as I'm approaching you again, chances are that won't end well in most cases. There are reasons even I would feel as being treated as a criminal, that is not one of them.

Theebadone, this is almost impossible to know at the start. Only after you have made contact and run the license, can you know if the person has a history.

Here is something to think about. Someone who legally carries, for whatever reason, robs or kills someone. They have no intention of being arrested. I pull him over for speeding and since everything seems fine, I let him stay armed. Once I run his information, I go back to the car and he shoots and kills me. If I asked him to come out and took that gun, I'd still be alive.


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davsco
03-09-2012, 10:46
At what point does a Cop know the person is:


Legally Carrying
Law Abiding
Just by the person saying "I'm legally carrying"?


that's the whole presumption of innocence thing. you don't ask for receipts for their clothing, for their ipod, for their car stereo, for their nice watch - all legal to have and own, and they're all ancillary to the traffic stop. of course not, you presume they are legally obtained and owned and carried or owned. and if they produce a ccw card, that should confirm they are legally CCW'ing.

like i said, if it is legal for police to disarm, then it's legal and what i think really doesn't matter. but i personally disagree with the concept of disarming everyone as a matter of course. is it justified in some cases - i am sure it is.

TBO
03-09-2012, 10:51
that's the whole presumption of innocence thing. you don't ask for receipts for their clothing, for their ipod, for their car stereo, for their nice watch - all legal to have and own, and they're all ancillary to the traffic stop. of course not, you presume they are legally obtained and owned and carried or owned.
-Their clothing, ipod, car stereo, or nice watch can't kill hurt/kill you in the blink of an eye.
-Presumption of Innocence has nothing to do with being disarmed for safety during a contact. You are not under arrest/charged with a crime by being lawfully disarmed.


and if they produce a ccw card, that should confirm they are legally CCW'ing. -How does that confirm they are legally CCW'ing?
Does producing a Driver's License confirm they are legally driving?

like i said, if it is legal for police to disarm, then it's legal and what i think really doesn't matter. but i personally disagree with the concept of disarming everyone as a matter of course. is it justified in some cases - i am sure it is.Try to view the stop from the view of the person performing it (what they know, and what they knew at the time of stop, including context).

Sometimes it may be "you don't know what you don't know".

Misty02
03-09-2012, 12:27
While perhaps not all, my suspicion is that in a considerable number of traffic stops the license plate is run to determine whether or not the car is stolen. My guess is that in more than a few jurisdictions, if the officer calls in the traffic stop with presumably a location and a license plate, that the dispatcher automatically runs the license plate to check to see if the car is stolen. Would that make the driver feel as if they were treated as a criminal? Further my guess is that in many traffic stops it will be routine to check not only the status of the driver's license, but also to run him to check for warrants. I am not sure that elevates the driver to the status of being dealt with as a criminal.

I believe there are some differences in what youíve stated, at least in my mind. The license plate is visible to all, there is no expectation that a plate posted on the outside of your vehicle remains in any way private. There is a contractual/legal agreement entered when one obtains a license, that privilege can be lost if you violate the law beyond an allotted frequency or severity. During most traffic stops (unless it is a DUI checkpoint) being stopped would mean violation/non-compliance with a traffic law and I'm legally obligated to provide my driver's license at that poin. Those would be different than asking me for my firearm under the pretense that it is for your safety, having me comply and then utilizing the opportunity to run the serial number.

Unless Iíve gone beyond a routine traffic violation, an officer being in possession of my weapon would be because I was more concerned with the way he/she felt during the stop than my privacy. Consideration is a two way street.

.

Booker
03-09-2012, 13:29
Well, as both a CHP holder(Concealed Handgun Permit) and a LEO, I can see both sides of this arguement. Generally, experienced LEOs tend to handle this better than the inexperienced. As I stated in another thread, it mainly depends on how you conduct the stop with the officer. Although Virginia is not a "notify" state, I expect to be told you are armed if I stop you. IMO, the best way to do this is to hand your CCW,CHP, whatever it is referred to in your state, along with your license, and keep your hands on the wheel. I'll then ask where it is, ask you to step out, I'll remove the weapon, ask you to return to your vehicle, and conduct business as usual.

There are a lot of nervous LEOs out there, and depending on the night their having it may be a different story. Say, they just came from a shooting or something of the like, they are going to be a bit more on edge.

Honestly, it kind of annoys me when people complain about this. I understand in some cases, perhaps you are drawn on, handcuffed, placed in the back seat. Yes, then I agree. But some complain for having to step out and relinquish their weapon, that is not being treated like a criminal.
Just my .02

This is why I don't volunteer information. While many cops are ok, you never know which one you're dealing with and which ones are going to dick about with you.

Sam Spade
03-09-2012, 13:56
While perhaps not all, my suspicion is that in a considerable number of traffic stops the license plate is run to determine whether or not the car is stolen. My guess is that in more than a few jurisdictions, if the officer calls in the traffic stop with presumably a location and a license plate, that the dispatcher automatically runs the license plate to check to see if the car is stolen.

No, you were right at first. All plates are run on all traffic stops, either by the officer while he's following the car or by the dispatcher at checkout or both. (Of course this assumes even the slightest shred of competence and attention to procedure.) And for every traffic stop, probably another 5-10 plates are run while fishing.

Just info off to the side.

Misty02
03-09-2012, 14:09
Misty, no harm done. I can understand where you're coming from. In many cases I agree with you.

Davsco, no two people perceive things the same. Where as having the person come out of the vehicle and relinquish their firearm makes you feel as though you're being considered to be, therefore being treated like a criminal. I disagree. It is not that I check serial numbers all the time, it is simply for my safety, as well as yours. If I allow you to keep the weapon, and then you make some.sudden movement as I'm approaching you again, chances are that won't end well in most cases. There are reasons even I would feel as being treated as a criminal, that is not one of them.

Theebadone, this is almost impossible to know at the start. Only after you have made contact and run the license, can you know if the person has a history.

Here is something to think about. Someone who legally carries, for whatever reason, robs or kills someone. They have no intention of being arrested. I pull him over for speeding and since everything seems fine, I let him stay armed. Once I run his information, I go back to the car and he shoots and kills me. If I asked him to come out and took that gun, I'd still be alive.


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Youíre still confusing me, MarkM32. I can understand it if you tell me youíre checking serial numbers to determine if the weapon shows up on the stolen database; however, I canít rationalize how checking the serial number is for either of our safety.

.

talon
03-09-2012, 15:06
License plate, serial number on gun. Sheesh thats worse than apples and oranges. Unless of course someone is displaying their serial number on the back of their window or something.

You want to run serial numbers: guns, watches, whatever have some PC.

IMHO officer safety would be better served by worrying about the guns they arent being told about.

Also, one speeding ticket, one accident and one checkpoint and I have never been disarmed.

TBO
03-09-2012, 15:08
PC or RS?

talon
03-09-2012, 15:34
Shucks I would even go with BV (Bad Vibe) if the LEO was able to articulate it.

Personally I'm just againt disarming as a matter of policy.

Edited to add sorry was addressing disarming and not serial numbers.

Bruce M
03-09-2012, 17:15
I believe there are some differences in what youíve stated, at least in my mind. The license plate is visible to all, there is no expectation that a plate posted on the outside of your vehicle remains in any way private. ...

Unless Iíve gone beyond a routine traffic violation, an officer being in possession of my weapon would be because I was more concerned with the way he/she felt during the stop than my privacy. Consideration is a two way street.

.

License plate, serial number on gun. Sheesh thats worse than apples and oranges. Unless of course someone is displaying their serial number on the back of their window or something.

You want to run serial numbers: guns, watches, whatever have some PC.

....

Ok I see what you are saying about the difference between a publicly displayed license plate and the serial number on your firearm. How about the officer checking your criminal history and a warrants check on a traffic stop? What if the officer elects to look at the VIN number on the driver's side door?

What happens if the officer elects to run the serial number of the firearm but does not tell you he ran it?

wjv
03-09-2012, 18:19
I have no problem is the LEO asks if they can hang on to my gun. . um. . weapon during the stop.

Don't even mind if they are somewhat cautious.

I think the problems arise for situations like the one in Canton Ohio when the LEO went ape **** and started screaming and treating the individual. There was also some case out east where a LEO drew down on someone who was legally open carrying.

But ignoring the OC factor, as long as a person is semi-professional I have no problems if I'm asked to hand over the weapon or such. WA Sate is a "no need to notify" State, but if the officer for some reason wanted me to step out of the vehicle or wanted to search the vehicle, then I would notify and produce the permit to help avoid the "OH **** WHAT'S THAT ON YOUR HIP" situation.

davsco
03-09-2012, 18:29
the concept from my perspective is you're doing a traffic stop. the person driving the car and the car are fair game. anything ancillary (gun with ccw paperwork, car stereo, gold watch, golf clubs, whatever) are just that, ancillary, and without pc or ras or whatever, i personally think they should be out of bounds. i understand there are exceptions (pc and ras) and i understand the practice may be totally legal. just my opinion.

if the policy is gonna be disarming every citizen with a ccw, then frankly i think it should go one step further, and every one must get out of car and be searched. cause the undisclosed weapon has a much higher probability of killing you then the one that was willfully disclosed.

seriously, how many cops have been shot or even drawn on during a traffic stop by a ccw'er...

again, this is pretty much a theoretical discussion for me as i haven't seen it happen.

Fearless40
03-09-2012, 18:31
Most of the related threads I have seen here have been in relation to traffic stops. First off I want to say the "duty to inform" is a bad idea. It is usually a poor decision made by ill informed lawmakers who are often swayed by LE fear of anyone else having any weapon. To make matters worse they are also negatively influenced by the anti gun lobby who have a very twisted interpretation of the 2nd amendment.

Why is it a bad idea? At the time of the traffic stop it very quickly drives that fear into the mind of any officer who does not understand those rights or disagrees with them. They will then proceed to escalate the situation to the point of jerking someone out of the vehicle and treat them like a criminal. Someone who may have been speeding or committing some other minor infraction who is otherwise attempting to comply with the law by informing. There is much more information available to an officer at that time about the situation than a laminated card. Does a simple traffic infraction justify this behavior and this reaction? I say not.

Why is it a bad idea? Anyone who has a weapon concealed illegally does not have the same duty to inform. If not carried on your person there is also not a duty to inform in most places. In such case it will usually be more easily accessible than what most CWP holders have. Generally the other occupants of the vehicle are not required to inform unless the officer asks or demands identification although this may be dependent upon the locale. Even it the subject was a CWP holder and had ill intent would he tell on himself by announcing "lookie here, I have weapon too"? I say not.

Case in point. Not long ago I was a passenger of a vehicle (highway speeding stop) where the driver foolishly handed the officer his CWP permit with his drivers license. The driver was mistakenly thinking he was obligated to do so although he was not packing at all. The officer didn't realize what he had been given until he was back to the rear of the vehicle then he charges up to the passenger window on my side barking at the driver "do you have any weapons in the vehicle" then "DO YOU HAVE ANY WEAPONS IN THE VEHICLE!!!" The driver replies a simple "no sir". The ignorant officer did not look at me nor address me. Did this provide any officer safety in any fashion? I say not.

In the aforementioned stop the officer didn't have a clue who I was or that I had one weapon IWB and another in the backpack at my feet both fully loaded with a round in the chamber. Idiot. Since then there have been reports of that municipality dragging CWP holders out of their vehicles by the side of the interstate highway while splaying their weapon, ammo, and magazine across the hood. If the driver had been carrying that day he would probably have suffered the same.

What we have here is another steady erosion of our rights under the guise of safety and security. This is compounded by poor training in many LE agencies, poor leadership and the inability to get the best candidates due to low pay.

With the militarization of our U.S. police forces over the years it is likely we will see more of this. With the police state mentality of some of our current government it could increase as well. Unless there is a mandate to drag every occupant of every vehicle out on the street at every simple traffic stop there is no "officer safety" gained in any case.

I am not anti-government and I am a law abiding citizen. However I feel a little like a criminal already just by feeling the need to reply to this.

Gokyo
03-09-2012, 19:14
You were driving 10 over, or had expired tags. That makes you a criminal.

The above or considered infractions. I do not think that makes you a criminal. You do not get criminal record for the above. You do get it added to your driving record however.

"Criminal offenses may be classified as infractions, felonies or misdemeanors. All three charges are separated by the penalties which may be imposed. Let's take a brief look at these types of offenses and their differences:

Infraction
An infraction is the lesser of the three and is not punishable by jail time. Typically, a fine is the only penalty associated with an infraction. A typical speeding ticket is an example of an infraction."

http://www.findacriminaldefenseattorney.com/Information-Center/Felony-vs-Misdemeanor-Offenses.aspx

talon
03-09-2012, 19:19
Back to post #33. While a true statement, whats good about it ?


That's good, and very true about some people.

Angry Fist
03-09-2012, 19:28
The above or considered infractions. I do not think that makes you a criminal. You do not get criminal record for the above. You do get it added to your driving record however.

"Criminal offenses may be classified as infractions, felonies or misdemeanors. All three charges are separated by the penalties which may be imposed. Let's take a brief look at these types of offenses and their differences:

Infraction
An infraction is the lesser of the three and is not punishable by jail time. Typically, a fine is the only penalty associated with an infraction. A typical speeding ticket is an example of an infraction."

http://www.findacriminaldefenseattorney.com/Information-Center/Felony-vs-Misdemeanor-Offenses.aspx
Yes sir, but when a cop pulls me over for excessive speeding, he's not going to give me the "good guy" nod because I have a CCW. He's likely to break my balls and write me up proper.

talon
03-09-2012, 19:29
I'm sorry, I'm a little slow sometimes. It appears that there is an agenda to this thread that I was not aware of. Please pardon me.


This is a part, the part of the "treatment" equation ignored, denied and or :upeyes:ed when asked about in threads where "they treated me/shouldn't treat me like a criminal" is included in the discussion.

I go back to TBO's observation...Where is everyone?

RussP
03-09-2012, 19:39
Back to post #33. While a true statement, whats good about it ?That's good, and very true about some people.A "good observation."

RussP
03-09-2012, 19:42
I'm sorry, I'm a little slow sometimes. It appears that there is an agenda to this thread that I was not aware of. Please pardon me.Agenda? Such as...?

NMG26
03-09-2012, 19:43
:cheers:

jdavionic
03-09-2012, 19:46
I'm sorry, I'm a little slow sometimes. It appears that there is an agenda to this thread that I was not aware of. Please pardon me.

I don't think there is an "agenda". I do think there is a certain degree of LE with some aprehension toward civilian carrying, and civilians with some over sensitivity toward LE trying to safely do their job. It seems to be the underlying theme to me.

Misty02
03-09-2012, 19:50
Ok I see what you are saying about the difference between a publicly displayed license plate and the serial number on your firearm. How about the officer checking your criminal history and a warrants check on a traffic stop? What if the officer elects to look at the VIN number on the driver's side door?

What happens if the officer elects to run the serial number of the firearm but does not tell you he ran it?

This thread started with Samís honest desire to understand what some of us might believe/think constituted being treated like a criminal. I donít know if he got to reach his originally target audience to get that question answered; either way, he received some honest responses from those of us not in uniform.

I have never been arrested before or come even close; Iíve never even been treated in a way by an officer that I believed was unprofessional. I can think of a time or two when they werenít ďniceĒ but I donít perceive that as a job requirement for anyone. Respectful and professional is all I require.

What would embarrass me publicly, if I believed I had done nothing illegal and didnít deserve the treatment, has been posted. My concerns are more prevalent if there are professional associates or clients that observe the interaction as that can hurt me financially. Barring any witness, I am neither sensitive nor the sentimental type, those very difficult to reach sides of me can be reached only by very close family members whom I deeply care about.

I donít care if an officer checks my criminal history or for warrants during a traffic stop, I expect them to do that with every person they stop. By the way, I check the criminal record of nearly everyone that comes in contact with my family and I donít go around advertising I did. I also check their driving record if any of us are expected to be passengers while they drive. The VIN number is carved nearly everywhere around the vehicle, have at it.

If an officer elects to run the serial number of my firearm and doesnít tell me he ran it, I will be in the same blissful ignorance he/she would be with the next armed person that they stop that doesnít tell them. Unless there are repercussions after, I canít be harmed by what I never find out. However, if the officer that stops me is honest and feels a moral obligation to inform a cooperative citizen, that so far appearances lead him to believe is law abiding that he is going to run my serial number, he will be informed that he doesnít my consent to do so. If they still go through with it and I donít believe it is justified, they would have proven to not be worthy of my trust and consideration. Not much I can do about it at that point though, I will not engage in an argument while conditions are not favorable to me, at the side of the road it wouldnít be wise.

.

Sam Spade
03-09-2012, 21:18
This thread started with Samís honest desire to understand what some of us might believe/think constituted being treated like a criminal. I donít know if he got to reach his originally target audience to get that question answered; either way, he received some honest responses from those of us not in uniform.

.

:number1:

Misty02
03-09-2012, 21:32
I donít know if you found the information you sought; if the people that brought the question to mind didnít participate, it might be missing important elements for you. Iím curious as to which would be your follow up questions once the intended audience finds the thread and participates.

.

kensteele
03-09-2012, 21:58
If an officer elects to run the serial number of my firearm and doesnít tell me he ran it, I will be in the same blissful ignorance he/she would be with the next armed person that they stop that doesnít tell them. Unless there are repercussions after, I canít be harmed by what I never find out. However, if the officer that stops me is honest and feels a moral obligation to inform a cooperative citizen, that so far appearances lead him to believe is law abiding that he is going to run my serial number, he will be informed that he doesnít my consent to do so. If they still go through with it and I donít believe it is justified, they would have proven to not be worthy of my trust and consideration. Not much I can do about it at that point though, I will not engage in an argument while conditions are not favorable to me, at the side of the road it wouldnít be wise.

My sentiments exactly. I didn't do it the last two time but the next time I am disarmed by an officer or he takes possession of my weapon, I plan to politely let him know that I do not give my consent for him to run the serial number on my firearm. And then we can go from there.

talon
03-10-2012, 14:00
My guess would be that there was an argument between some pro leo and some not quite so pro leo folks on another thread. And this thread was created to continue the argument for that group(switch to tach 2) Thus TBO's comments that they arent here and where are they etc.

I'm not a part of or actually aware of this previous thread I was posting based only on the orginal post of this thread.
Thus pardon me I will get off of tach 2


Agenda? Such as...?

harrygunner
03-10-2012, 17:28
Forgive the analogy, but if I hired someone to keep my house clean, I can't feel insulted if they look for dirt. They are doing their job, not questioning my cleanliness.

There is a difference in that if the cleaner swipes a rag across a clean spot, there's little downside. If a LEO goes after a clean guy, there's lots to lose.

I recently watched a video of a police officer discussing when a person might believe they are being arrested, regardless of whether that was, in fact happening. If I can re-discover the link, I'll add it. That might be useful for this discussion.

I've been stopped twice in seventeen years of carrying. Once in Los Angeles county, California in the daytime and once in Wyoming near Cody after midnight. I was armed both times and both officers treated me as they would any traffic stop.

I would feel like I was being treated like a criminal if were asked to step out of the car. That's because I believe in our right to bear arms and that act in and of itself, is no reflection on our character.

RussP
03-10-2012, 22:05
My guess would be that there was an argument between some pro leo and some not quite so pro leo folks on another thread. And this thread was created to continue the argument for that group(switch to tach 2) Thus TBO's comments that they arent here and where are they etc.

I'm not a part of or actually aware of this previous thread I was posting based only on the orginal post of this thread.
Thus pardon me I will get off of tach 2No, this is not any kind of argument continuation. Read Sam's post again:On other threads, a common refrain has emerged. People--CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals".

Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Looking to get perspective from other points of view, so I may have follow on questions. TIA. The question is never definitively answered in threads where the allegation is made.

What constitutes being "treated like a criminal?"

There is no agenda attached to, nor is there an agenda to be served by answers to Sam's question.

Some cops have come into the thread offering very openly their reasons for and opinions about actions they take that some consider being treated like a criminal.

Look at the answers here so far. The range from tone of voice to being proned and handcuffed.

I'd suggest everyone read again Sam's thread LE Contacts: Rights and Powers (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994145) for more information about what, well, "LE Contacts: Rights and Powers".

Misty02
03-10-2012, 22:29
Iíve read that thread, Russ (more than once, I admit) it is excellent! You still learn a few minor details here and there as people further elaborate not just what is done, why, how and when but also the individualís motivation for those actions.

.

SgtScott31
03-11-2012, 00:53
From someone who has been wearing the uniform for 10 years, I have always been respectful and thankful to those who inform me of their permit status during a traffic stop.

I find it interesting that many here feel that informing a LEO about their permit or weapon (if no permit is needed) is the worst thing to do. To me it makes more common sense that those who don't want the LEO to know about their weapon are the ones the LEOs need to worry about. Now before you go blasting away (no pun intended), I know there are different areas of the country where weapon-holders are treated differently then they may be here down south where I am (TN). I will agree on two things for sure: #1 - there are definitely LEOs on the street that don't need to be and #2 - there are LEOs that do a good job, but are A-1 butt heads. Now the #2 folks are doing the job, just need a few lessons in people skills. I can't help that. It should fall on the shoulders of their supervision to get them to be a little more citizen-friendly. Then again, depending on where they patrol and what they have to deal with on a daily basis, they may have formed that hard-shell from the straight d-bags they deal with on a daily basis. So when they actually do come across a decent person, I'm not surprised that person doesn't like the LEOs attitude. Sometimes it can't be helped and the person shouldn't take it personally, but I can understand the argument from both sides.

I just wanted to remind folks that if you've never walked a day in our shoes, I recommend you do a few ride-alongs, preferably with an officer that patrols the not-so-friendly areas of town. The #1 goal of any officer is to do his job without getting hurt/killed (i.e. come home to his family). I think about my 5-yr old every time I leave the house. I think about my 5-yr old when I'm at work. I think about my 5-yr old when I deal with wrecks where a child is involved or when I arrest a parent. I want to see him finish kindergarten and start sports. I want to see him with his first girlfriend. Bottom line, I want what any parent wants. I am involved in one of the more dangerous jobs in the nation and where the #1 cause of death involving my co-workers is gunfire (sometimes #2 to traffic accidents). I'm not saying all this to justify the officer's actions who treats a permit holder like dirt, but I want to remind people that some shells they wear on their backs are thicker than others. I have been with a smaller agency that deals with a majority of law-abiding people. It's probably safe to say I'm nicer than your average NYPD officer who is foot-patrolling the Bronx every day.

Most people in this country have minimal contact with the law enforcement community. More than ever the public's general opinions and beliefs about us are coming from social outlets based on one-sided (and often biased) information. While sites like youtube have nabbed some corrupt officers, it has stained the reputation of quite a few more without justification based on 20 seconds of edited video that the person doing the wrong wanted you to see. You can simply not base your opinions of law enforcement solely by what you catch on a COPS episode, facebook, or youtube. I encourage everyone to go to citizen academies, ride-along programs, and community LE functions like DARE, Booze it/Lose it, etc and get to know some of the guys patrolling your streets. While there are quite a few out there that slipped through the cracks, please don't believe they represent the vast majority that try to do it right. I don't want people to have one interaction with a bad LEO and assume the rest of us are thrown in the same basket with him/her. I'm probably one of the nicest and most laid back guys you will meet, but I think about my family 24/7 and make sure the things I do on the road are the safest possible that will keep me coming home 5 nights a week. If one of those things happens to offend you one night, then so be it. It probably wasn't my intention, but there are probably going to be some things LEOs do that will tick some people off. When it comes to gun holders, being disarmed is probably one of them. I personally have never disarmed a permit holder, but that's not to say I never will. My decision will come from a conscious, thought out decision at the time the situation is taking place. If people MMQB my actions and think I was wrong, well that's ok. I can live with that. If I know what I was doing was legal and allowed by city ordinance, state law and/or case precedent, you can file a complaint, but it's likely not going to go anywhere. We are allowed to do quite a few things when it comes to the courts and their views on officer safety. I'm not saying this to stick my tongue out and say I can get away with anything. I'm politely pointing out the fact that no matter how legal and straightforward some things are that we do when it comes to officer safety, people who don't deal with police much (which are the bulk of US citizens) will find something offensive about it. Although we're not obligated to explain it on the side of the road, I usually do, but I'm probably the minority. Most officers will not explain things, but that doesn't mean it was illegal. It just means they probably have quite a few other things going on.

Sorry this is long, but reading this thread and a couple of others bugged me a little bit tonight. Maybe I'm just in a talkative (typing) mood. On a side note, I read another recent thread where one of the posters said since he was a permit holder it meant he wasn't a felon and should automatically be treated like a law-abiding person. Sorry bossman, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I guarantee most officers in my area have arrested permit holders for an array of charges. I can tell you the last I checked on our state website over 300 permit holders had their permits revoked for felony convictions. While I believe that most permit holders are good folks, I never assume anyone is Mary Poppins. I personally arrested a permit holder with dope and a handgun with a filed serial number (which ATF nicely stepped in on). If you walked a day in our shoes you would know why. I treat everyone like I would want to be treated, but that doesn't mean I ever let my guard down, regardless if you're holding a permit or not. My little boy is going to see his dad when he wakes up, period.

Misty02
03-11-2012, 10:26
Thank you for your post, SgtScott31. While we only know a few officers, and they donít talk much about their job, we know enough to understand (in general terms) some of the things they go through and the risks they take.

Iíve witnessed at least one be completely consumed with a particular case, sleep little to nothing, affect his interactions with his family, give his every waking minute (while doing other assigned work) to that case to make sure someone who harmed a child is behind bars for a long time. Then go through a trial and have the criminal plead out because of some technicality, get some stupid mild sentence or probation and be back on the street in the blink of an eye. Not only was he consumed through the entire thing but then comes the frustration and depression of having to deal with the fact that all was in vain and the person he wanted to keep behind bars so they couldnít harm kids like his or mine again are out.

My son knew one of the two officers that was shot and killed during a traffic stop down here not that long ago. What his family and friends have gone through I wouldnít wish on my worst enemy.

The few we know do it because they really care and think they can make the world a better place, safer for their kids and others they care about. At times I see them as kids (because some are not much older than my own) that risk their lives with the naÔve belief they can change their little piece of the world. Iím not so sure which of them are worse off, those that get physically injured or those that get mentally or emotionally scarred. All I know is that given the choice, I would like neither for my own.

At the recommendation of TBO and others my son and I are looking into the Citizenís Academy, it is a 13 week course that meets 3 hours on Wednesdays. It includes a trip to the Medical Examinerís office, range demo, a full shift ride along and classroom style courses for the remainder. Thankfully the next class doesnít start until June and we have a month or two to think further about it before turning in our registration. I also looked into the ride-along, not by where I live but an area that would be more representative of what an officer would have to go through during their career. If we go through with the academy, the later wonít be necessary as it is included as part of the academy course. What is holding me back and making me think? Iím selfish, Iím not so sure I wish to understand more. Iíve always been of the belief that knowledge is power and necessary in all aspects of life, but this one is making me take a step back and think.

I donít blame you, or any other officer, for doing everything allowed of you to ensure you make it home each night. I would do no less and quite possibly would take it further than many of you do. However, as I have admitted previously, Iím selfish; at some point the sense of ďmeĒ starts to weigh in to the point where my sense of ďyouĒ is less strong. Disarming, getting out to where you can observe me better and several other things are ok. There are other things that while I may not like it much, I would also understand, in that one youíll have the cuffing and things like that; so long as itís not witnessed by someone and has the potential of harming me financially by involving the perception of others.

In spite all that, there is still a very strong sense of self (me), my rights, to a degree my comfort and other things. There will be point at which I say ďenough!Ē I now perceive you as crossing the line and taking advantage; a point where I no longer perceive your actions as being necessary to ensure your safety. A point where I know that youíre still doing your job and are legally allowed to do certain things, but there is wiggle room to exercise officer discretion and youíve elected (not out of requirement, but out of personal practice and/or desire) to take a step that has the potential to harm me or trample over my personal rights without it contributing to my willingness to participate in ďofficer safetyĒ. That would be the point where we have an issue, it will no longer be about you, it will be about me. Iím neither pleasant nor kind when I perceive the line has been crossed. To date, that has never involved an officer, but I rarely discriminate if the shoe fits.



(you and your are used in the general sense here, not you specifically SgtScott31)

.
.

SgtScott31
03-11-2012, 22:36
That would be the point where we have an issue, it will no longer be about you, it will be about me. Iím neither pleasant nor kind when I perceive the line has been crossed. To date, that has never involved an officer, but I rarely discriminate if the shoe fits.


Very understandable. I believe many others would feel the same way. I only ask that if this ever occurs (which I hope it doesn't) you bite your lip and deal with it adminstratively after the contact with the officer in question has ended. Attempting to call the officer "out" or challenge his actions will only escalate the situation for all involved, no matter how right you are. Stay safe. :)

Misty02
03-11-2012, 23:04
Very understandable. I believe many others would feel the same way. I only ask that if this ever occurs (which I hope it doesn't) you bite your lip and deal with it adminstratively after the contact with the officer in question has ended. Attempting to call the officer "out" or challenge his actions will only escalate the situation for all involved, no matter how right you are. Stay safe. :)

We are in agreement. The side of the road is not the place to argue. Not only because the risks outweigh the rewards, but also because Iím ignorant of the actual legalities involved. At that point my only guide would be a personal moral sense of perceived right vs wrong; not much of a leg to stand on.

Stay safe as well. :)

.

GString
03-11-2012, 23:44
The first thing that comes to my mind is you are treated like a criminal when you are [unlawfully] profiled.

+1 Exactly.

saxconnection
03-12-2012, 00:38
At what point does a Cop know the person is:


Legally Carrying
Law Abiding

Just by the person saying "I'm legally carrying"?

Generally, when the person discloses that they are carrying concealed, they have a license to back it up. As for the law abiding part, that would happen after they run a background check - which has been done during the licensing process, beforehand. Whether they were still abiding the law at the time of the stop is questionable though.

Adam

RussP
03-12-2012, 04:53
The first thing that comes to my mind is you are treated like a criminal when you are [unlawfully] profiled.+1 Exactly.GString, what does unlawfully profiled mean to you?

Andy W
03-13-2012, 00:10
I know one idiot who seems like he almost wants to start something in the event he gets pulled over. He says if he gets pulled over while carrying a weapon, which he always does, he will not mention anything to the cop about carrying because they will find out he has a CCW permit (and thus is carrying a weapon) when they run his driver's license. If the officer doesn't make an issue out of it, everything will be fine. If he asks for the weapon, he will politely refuse to hand it over. If he tries to forcibly disarm him, he will "treat that ******* cop like any other thug because those SOBS are getting way too big for their britches." One of his main carry weapons is an FN FiveSeven, probably with the idea that the ammo will defeat soft armor. I believe he also frequently has a class III weapon with him in the vehicle. Sounds like he's gonna be on the news some night .

OctoberRust
03-13-2012, 06:23
You were driving 10 over, or had expired tags. That makes you a criminal.


Speeding is (usually) an infraction, not a crime.

TBO
03-13-2012, 06:58
http://i41.tinypic.com/2n1ys8i.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/6jjaes.jpg

work2ride
03-13-2012, 07:03
If I'm stopped I will immediatly hand my CC license to the officer with my Drivers license and wait for him/her to ask me if I have my weapon with me (which i'm sure will happen immediatly) while keeping my hands in plain sight. I just don't think it's a good idea to say ''I'm a permit holder and i'm armed'' before the officer sees my permit because if his partner is behind him or on the other side of the vehicle all he might hear is ''i'm armed'' and get the wrong impression. I'm just happy to be able to finally be able to CC in my state and will comply with whatever makes the officer feel better if I do get stopped. If he/she wants to have it until the stop is over it's fine with me.

Edit: In my opinion being treated like a criminal would be getting cuffed and thrown in the squad car for speeding or other minor traffic stop because I have my permit and weapon on me which is highly unlikely.

highfructosecornsyrp
03-13-2012, 07:07
For me being treated like a criminal means I was not treated with courtesy and respect. I am a realist though and I realize that those patrol guys have a hard life. Some rise above it and become great people. Most turn that hardness back on ordinary citizens like myself. C'est la vie.

redbaron007
03-13-2012, 07:36
Speeding is (usually) an infraction, not a crime.

Look at what TBO posted and what I posted, #33. You may want to rethink your definition.


:wavey:

red

Angry Fist
03-13-2012, 08:18
Look at what TBO posted and what I posted, #33. You may want to rethink your definition.


:wavey:

red
If I pull you over for going way too fast, I ain't going to be Mr. Nice Cop. Permit or not, you ain't a perfect responsible law abiding citizen anymore. You might get someone killed.

Unistat
03-13-2012, 09:09
Well, as I work in a jail, I know a little bit about how criminal's are treated. That is why I said earlier, being taken to jail and booked is where I would feel like I'm being treated like a criminal.

You're being treated like a criminal:
When you're strip searched.
When you have your phone, shoes, and glasses taken away from you.
When you have a mugshot taken.
When you have to put on an orange jumpsuit that says "Property of X P.D."
When you have to poop and pee on camera because you no longer have a right to privacy.
Most importantly, when you cannot go home and sleep in your own bed tonight.

As you can see, from my perspective there is a enormous gulf between being asked some pointed questions on the side of the road and how actual arrested criminals are treated.

RussP
03-13-2012, 09:54
For me being treated like a criminal means I was not treated with courtesy and respect.You ride a high performance motorcycle, don't you? Finally...found the post:Ive ridden a liter bike...enough power to be scary. I could never even get close to its capabilities.

I currently ride a Buell XB12SS. Its got a 1200CC Vtwin, but its oil cooled and quite friendly...some people liken them to a 750CC inline 4 cylinder (gxxr 750 etc). I'd say it is pretty close to idea as far as fun in the corners vs straight line power, with a little hint towards straight line.

I had a Ducati 620 before this one...not too much fun straight line wise, I mean it qas quick and peppy, but not quite what the buell is. It was a riot in the corners though.

My next bike will be a Vtwin sport bike between 620 and 1000 (oil or air cooled).

4 cylinders just don't do it for me...

If you just want to go fast and look kind of gnarly, take a look at the Yamaha Vmax, you could buy one for 5 grand pretty easily and have it in addition to your 650r...between the loss on your bike and the cost of a liter bike, it might be a lateral move. VMAX's are pretty fun to drive in a straight line and they sound good too.Have you had many interactions with law enforcement as a result? Have you ever not been "treated with courtesy and respect?"I am a realist though and I realize that those patrol guys have a hard life. Some rise above it and become great people. Most turn that hardness back on ordinary citizens like myself. C'est la vie.Okay, here come the questions that follow statements like that.

Can you quantify "some" and "most' in your comment? And that number, will that be "some" and "most" of the police you've encountered, or is it "some" and "most" of all those in law enforcement?

Thanks!!

redbaron007
03-13-2012, 12:28
If I pull you over for going way too fast, I ain't going to be Mr. Nice Cop. Permit or not, you ain't a perfect responsible law abiding citizen anymore. You might get someone killed.

I take it easy through the Lake....been there, done that!! Knowing you, you'll haul me through the Grand Jury too for that lil ol speeding infraction!! :rofl:

Thank God Macks Creek is done!! :supergrin:


:wavey:

red

kensteele
03-13-2012, 12:44
found somewhere on the internet, ymmv:

Decriminalization. Minor traffic violations were previously criminal offenses in which the defendant could request a jury trial. In the 1980's the county courts across the state became inundated with DUI, DEAC or DWAI cases and the courts simply didn't have the time to conduct jury trials on speeding tickets and other minor violations.

The State of Colorado therefore decriminalized minor traffic violations, and pursuant to CRS 16-6-501 the Supreme Court established the Colorado Rules of Traffic Infractions - CRTI. Since the possibility of jail was eliminated, criminal jury trials were no longer a matter of right. Procedures were enacted to hear contested cases before a magistrate - CRTI 7(a). If a traffic offense is charged with a traffic infraction, the case is heard before a judge under the rules of criminal procedure.

No Constitutional Right to Jury Trial. Since the decriminalization of minor traffic offenses, traffic infractions are civil matters and are not punishable by imprisonment. Class A traffic infractions are subject to a penalty of from five to one hundred dollars and assessment of points defendant cannot request a jury trial, cf. C.R.T.I. 11. Defendant alleged a 4 point traffic infraction and a 6 point traffic offense had "substantially the same penalties." He contended that the statutory classification was unreasonable and therefore denied him equal protection. The court ruled the decision to treat higher rates of speeding as more serious and as involving criminal conduct does not violate equal protection. Determining where and how to draw the line between criminal and non-criminal conduct is within the legislature's discretion. Because the maximum penalty for a traffic infraction is $100, an individual charged with a traffic infraction does not have a constitutional right to a jury trial. People v. Lewis, 745 P.2d 668 (Colo. 1987); see Duncan v. Louisiana, 391 U.S. 145, 159 (1968); (right to jury trial for those charged with "serious crimes" but not for those charged with "petty offenses"); Austin v. City and County of Denver, 170 Colo. 448, 456, 462 P.2d 600, 604 (1969) (in absence of contrary legislative mandate, petty offenses not requiring jury trial are those for which maximum penalty does not exceed $500 and six months' imprisonment).

Traffic infractions are the smaller traffic violations - 4 points or less
Excluding careless driving and compulsory insurance,
Including 6 point speeding if 24 mph or less in excess of the speed limit

Angry Fist
03-13-2012, 17:28
I take it easy through the Lake....been there, done that!! Knowing you, you'll haul me through the Grand Jury too for that lil ol speeding infraction!! :rofl:

Thank God Macks Creek is done!! :supergrin:


:wavey:

red
No, they just raised their speed limits and spaced out the signs more than 100 yards cresting the hill! :rofl:

SgtScott31
03-14-2012, 21:30
The issue of traffic violations codified as criminal or civil infractions vary from state to state. They are criminal in TN with the exception of red-light camera violations. I have never known any officer I have worked with to characterize a speeder as a "criminal," unless they were driving speeds that were an immediate danger to life (i.e. reckless speeds).


If I'm stopped I will immediatly hand my CC license to the officer with my Drivers license and wait for him/her to ask me if I have my weapon with me (which i'm sure will happen immediatly) while keeping my hands in plain sight. I just don't think it's a good idea to say ''I'm a permit holder and i'm armed'' before the officer sees my permit because if his partner is behind him or on the other side of the vehicle all he might hear is ''i'm armed'' and get the wrong impression. I'm just happy to be able to finally be able to CC in my state and will comply with whatever makes the officer feel better if I do get stopped. If he/she wants to have it until the stop is over it's fine with me.

Edit: In my opinion being treated like a criminal would be getting cuffed and thrown in the squad car for speeding or other minor traffic stop because I have my permit and weapon on me which is highly unlikely.


I don't think an officer is going to "mistakenly" just hear "I'm armed." Not sure where you are, but I'm not aware of any agencies in my area where it's common to have two officers on first approach involving a traffic stop, unless it's a FTO & his rookie. In TN, it says on a big red strip "Handgun Carry Permit" and the ID is vertical versus the horizontal DL. I will know as soon as I see it what it is. I personally ask if you're armed and where it is. Then I just go through the rest of the stop. I don't have any intentions on disarming unless something else warrants it (vehicle matching description of nearby burglary/felony, etc). That's not to say every officer takes the same action(s) as I do, but I think most will. Regardless, by law we have the authority to disarm permit holders under certain circumstances.


If he asks for the weapon, he will politely refuse to hand it over. If he tries to forcibly disarm him, he will "treat that ******* cop like any other thug because those SOBS are getting way too big for their britches." One of his main carry weapons is an FN FiveSeven, probably with the idea that the ammo will defeat soft armor. I believe he also frequently has a class III weapon with him in the vehicle. Sounds like he's gonna be on the news some night .


I feel sorry what will happen to him criminally and civilly if he ever puts any weight behind what he says.

bleak_house
03-15-2012, 10:23
Many years ago I was stopped for speeding. I was nervous (just got my DL) and reached down to adjust my pants leg. A service weapon through my window and angry cop will straigten you out REAL quick. That being said I was stopped for speeding and reached out of the cops sight so I was treated as the stop called for so I don't think I was mistreated even with a gun in my face. But now its a fuuny story to tell

work2ride
03-15-2012, 16:26
I don't think an officer is going to "mistakenly" just hear "I'm armed." Not sure where you are, but I'm not aware of any agencies in my area where it's common to have two officers on first approach involving a traffic stop, unless it's a FTO & his rookie. In TN, it says on a big red strip "Handgun Carry Permit" and the ID is vertical versus the horizontal DL. I will know as soon as I see it what it is. I personally ask if you're armed and where it is. Then I just go through the rest of the stop. I don't have any intentions on disarming unless something else warrants it (vehicle matching description of nearby burglary/felony, etc). That's not to say every officer takes the same action(s) as I do, but I think most will. Regardless, by law we have the authority to disarm permit holders under certain circumstances.


Our CC permits are a seperate id card here but without a photo. I just figured I was better off handing him my cc card with my license and letting him ask the questions to keep it simple and make sure there is no miscommunication in case there was a partner or trainee along.

Angry Fist
03-15-2012, 18:26
Our CC permits are a seperate id card here but without a photo. I just figured I was better off handing him my cc card with my license and letting him ask the questions to keep it simple and make sure there is no miscommunication in case there was a partner or trainee along.
We have a photo ID option for CCW, and when I have been pulled over, I put the red one (CCW) on top of the DL, even though we don't have to notify. Officer Harless can be anywhere. :couch:

TBO
05-06-2012, 16:06
BTT relevant to current discussion.

ScottieG59
05-06-2012, 16:30
This being treated like a criminal is mostly BS. Some people want to be treated specially and are very easily insulted. I have worked in secure environments for over 30 years and I could not begin to count the times I have been aggressively approached by security and even non-security personnel. Some facilities have guards who will fire on people who go past a certain point and being stopped aggressively is much nicer.

During periodic reviews (for security clearance), my national loyalty is questioned as well as other aspects of my personal life.

Since I conduct myself properly, it has not been a big issue.

Police do not know me and our interactions may also address the fact that the risk is unknown. It is worthwhile being respectful instead of pompous. It goes two ways here, but I defer to the police officer as the perform their duties. There were times I was a bit aggressive as a soldier downrange. Sometimes, it helped keep things peaceful since we controlled the space. Police can be the same way. For example, German police first control the situation and any resistance is quickly resolved. It may involve a club to the thigh.

Why make our public servents' jobs harder with your resentment and bruised ego?

kahrcarrier
05-06-2012, 17:51
I was detained once in Missouri, although it had nothing to do with carrying a weapon.

As a matter of fact, I still don't know the true reason for the traffic stop and intense questioning. I did give permission to search my vehicle. I complied with every directive I was given, including giving the names of the people I was visiting in Poplar Bluff, and the name of the motel I stayed at the night before. I was told where to stand, then sit, and where to keep my hands at all times. So yes, I did feel like a criminal, or at least, a person of extreme interest.....

My story checked out, and in the end, I was sent on my way. I hold no grudges over the incident, as I figure I most likely resembled someone they were on the lookout for, or something along those lines. I understand their caution, especially if they thought I possibly might be a person who posed a known threat.

They were doing their job. The inconvenience did not sour me on relations with LEO. This was the first and last time it has happened; I consider it a rare occurence for most people, I know it was for me.

Moonfish
05-07-2012, 15:59
On other threads, a common refrain has emerged. People--CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals".

Apparently my questions are getting lost in the noise, so let me post here: What does this mean to you? Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Looking to get perspective from other points of view, so I may have follow on questions. TIA.

Great thread, Sam! Can you expand on circumstances around the second part of the question, "does it apply in other places [non LEO?] where one is forced to disarm?" I'm trying to think of situations where I would be forced to disarm as opposed to being voluntarily unarmed. In other words, my choice. This might help trigger additional discussion.

eracer
05-08-2012, 05:34
If an LEO pulls a speeder over, the chances of the speeder getting a ticket drops to "0" and we all know and understand that.

Au Contraire, Pierre.

As to Bren's original question: If I answer all questions honestly, and comply with all demands, and a LEO is rude, or tries to lecture me on why he feels that ordinary citizens shouldn't engage in behavior that is otherwise legal, that's when I feel I'm being treated like a criminal.

Misty02
05-08-2012, 05:38
This being treated like a criminal is mostly BS. Some people want to be treated specially and are very easily insulted. I have worked in secure environments for over 30 years and I could not begin to count the times I have been aggressively approached by security and even non-security personnel. Some facilities have guards who will fire on people who go past a certain point and being stopped aggressively is much nicer.

During periodic reviews (for security clearance), my national loyalty is questioned as well as other aspects of my personal life.

Since I conduct myself properly, it has not been a big issue.

Police do not know me and our interactions may also address the fact that the risk is unknown. It is worthwhile being respectful instead of pompous. It goes two ways here, but I defer to the police officer as the perform their duties. There were times I was a bit aggressive as a soldier downrange. Sometimes, it helped keep things peaceful since we controlled the space. Police can be the same way. For example, German police first control the situation and any resistance is quickly resolved. It may involve a club to the thigh.

Why make our public servents' jobs harder with your resentment and bruised ego?

Iím not a very sensitive person to start with, but you canít compare the instances you mentioned with a regular citizen out in the streets. We arenít soldiers and have not signed up or taken a job where such treatment is warranted or expected.

Itís all in the attitude and the words that accompany that attitude. I can be treated ruff and be put in handcuffs (when I know Iím innocent) and still believe the person is being professional and doing what they need to do. Saying something as insignificant as ďIím sorry maíam but I must do thisĒ would get great mileage from me. It doesnít mean Iíll like it, but Iíll be a heck of a lot more understanding.

A person that is professional in performing their job and demonstrates some respect while doing things that are part of his/her duties that may be distasteful and unpleasant for me is likely to receive more cooperation and understanding for what they need to do.
.

eracer
05-08-2012, 06:45
This being treated like a criminal is mostly BS. Some people want to be treated specially and are very easily insulted. I have worked in secure environments for over 30 years and I could not begin to count the times I have been aggressively approached by security and even non-security personnel. Some facilities have guards who will fire on people who go past a certain point and being stopped aggressively is much nicer.

During periodic reviews (for security clearance), my national loyalty is questioned as well as other aspects of my personal life.

Since I conduct myself properly, it has not been a big issue.

Police do not know me and our interactions may also address the fact that the risk is unknown. It is worthwhile being respectful instead of pompous. It goes two ways here, but I defer to the police officer as the perform their duties. There were times I was a bit aggressive as a soldier downrange. Sometimes, it helped keep things peaceful since we controlled the space. Police can be the same way. For example, German police first control the situation and any resistance is quickly resolved. It may involve a club to the thigh.

Why make our public servents' jobs harder with your resentment and bruised ego?Because we all want our interactions with police to be like we live in a police state, or at war, or in prison, or in Germany.

Misty02
05-08-2012, 07:40
So, a one time (or annual at the most) NCIC/state/local check means you're an automatic good guy, huh?

What about someone who went thru the following, just for a job:

Written test
Oral interview
Physical fitness test
Medical exam
Psychological exam (MMPI, and others)
Discussing results of previous with psychologist
Interviews of friends, neighbors, references
Credit check
Polygraph
Chiefs interview
Weeks or months of academy
Months more of FTO


Because, to some extent, that's what virtually every law enforcement officer in the country went thru to wear that badge. And yet, you don't trust them....

Another question - why should police be expert gun handlers? They drive exponentially more than they shoot, yet no one expects cops to be NASCAR drivers. Go figure.

And, unless you wear, or have worn, the uniform...you're no brother of mine, or anyone who wears a badge. Especially with your other comments in the same post.

Although Iím not exactly sympathetic to the comment made by OlliesRevenge, in context (and as I interpreted it), yours isn't fair either wprebeck.

I donít expect an officer to be a NASCAR driver but I do expect them to drive to the extent of their abilities (which Iím sure will vary) to minimize the possibility of injury to themselves and others.

I also donít expect an officer to be an expert gun handler, yet every officer (and all of us) must remain conscious that it is a dangerous tool that can cause great injury or death if not properly handled. Regardless of handling skill one is basically universal, you donít muzzle people (that goes for people you stop as well as other officers).

As far the ďgood guyĒ part. I donít blame an officer for taking certain safety precautions as there is no category that would brand a person a ďgood guyĒ regardless what card they hold or the credentials they possess. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. You all have a job that requires approaching people of unknown character (to you) that may pose a substantial danger; because of that you get a bit of a leeway from people like me.

There is nothing that would justify anyone muzzling me, regardless of profession or credentials. If that were to happen someone would be getting an earful (after the fact) once Iím no longer facing such a dangerous situation. Oddly, being faced with the wrong end of the muzzle, intentionally while the firearm is being properly controlled by the officer, because they believe they are dealing with something/someone else might not get the same sort of reaction.

.

RussP
05-08-2012, 08:56
Okay, this thread is drifting too far off the original topic.

Go back and read Post #1. That's the topic.

If you simply want to pick a fight with another member, please, go to another forum, not here in Glock Talk.

Thanks...

OlliesRevenge
05-08-2012, 19:03
...a common refrain has emerged...CCW holders--are offended when the police "treat them like criminals"...What does this mean to you?

When the level of agitation and aggression on the LEO's part exceeds that of what a "reasonable person" would consider appropriate, given the circumstances.

One example would be the famous "Mexican Piss" incident (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/121733044.html) up here in Seattle.

My own incident, which was the catalyst for my interest in street law and my own civil rights, was far less dramatic. I slept in the bed of my F350 one night at Dash Point State Park in Federal Way WA after visiting with friends who had paid for a numbered camping area. My truck was parked near the entrance in a dirt parking lot, and I later would learn that sleeping in vehicles there is not permitted. In the morning I was accosted by a park ranger who accused me of defacating in the area (I did no such thing), illegally entering the park, and who was very loud and confrontational. He never put his hands on me, but he used body proximity (getting in my face) and a very loud voice, for maximum intimidation value. Having just woken up, I was totally caught off guard, and experienced a big adrenaline dump in response to his senseless harrasment. He demanded "ID" and I reflexively produced my drivers license. Even after I offered to pay a normal one night camping fee, he threatened to jail me, and stated; "you wouldn't be the first firefighter I have arrested!" I later Googled his name and learned he is a "singing christian cowboy" in my area (nothing against singers, christians, or cowboys; it was just one of those "truth is stranger than fiction" moments).

Is simply being disarmed enough to trigger this feeling? If so, does it apply in other places where one is forced to disarm, or only when the police do it?

Only when the police do it.

For me though, this is an academic exercise, as my state does not require me to declare (nor would I ever declare), and thus I'll likely never be in a spot to be disarmed "for the officers safety". FWIW the few very experienced officers I have talked to about this basically have an "eye roll" :upeyes:attitude toward officers who use this practice. One even stated to me: "It isn't the legal concealed carriers you have to worry about".

Indeed; from a logical standpoint, an officer disarming a person who just voluntarily declared that they are a CCW'er, and are legally armed makes no sense. For an officer to do a disarm "for their safety" in this situation, they essentially have to believe that someone would take the trouble to get a concealed permit, then voluntarily declare the permit & weapon during a stop, then after all that, decide to pull the weapon and gun down the officer. It makes no sense! I propose that the weapons LEO's need to worry about are the ones they don't see.

In response to the folks who thought my last comments were "arrogant" or that I was "no brother of theirs", I have this question...

Where is the outrage, and empathy for the poor guy who watched his toddler get muzzle swept by a LEO who was conducting a disarm "for his own safety"?

Steve in Az
05-09-2012, 08:54
The good 'ol golden rule applies here. Police should treat citizens exactly the same way that they would like to be treated if the roles were reversed.

TBO
05-09-2012, 11:08
<--------doesn't "lecture" criminals
<--------locks criminals up

JDKinman
05-09-2012, 11:56
I've been stopped three times, all in Texas (where I live) since I was issued my CHL.

Not once was I treated with anything but utmost respect.

However, as a former LE type, I know which buttons to not push--and arrogance or the "I'm a constitutional expert" button is one to not push unless you really want a long, drawn-out stop, lots of other cops around, a probable search of your vehicle, etc.

Here's something that most other cops will probably support: The Shakespeare Defense (''Me thinks thou dost protest too much") rarely ever works in your favor. I quit counting the number of times we would encounter someone who had an excuse for everything, a reason for everything and was a bonafide expert on all things legal and constitutional.

Some of our biggest and best arrests came from such people.

Why? Because they protested too much. Translation: What are you hiding? An old arrest warrant? Drugs? Are you on the run? A person of interest?

Treat the contacting officer/deputy/trooper/agent how YOU would want to be treated in the reverse situation REGARDLESS of the circumstances that precipitated the stop.

I also (strongly) advocate carrying a small digital recorder with you in case you do get an officer who is over-the-top (ie the Canton cop who went nutso on the CHL holder).

But if you look at the gazillions of traffic stops that our nation's cops make every day versus the "abuse" episodes that are legitimate, the ratio strongly works out in favor of the cops who act and treat the contacts professionally.

In Texas, we no longer have to inform the cop that we have a CHL. I always do. I hand over my CHL with my drivers license. It's a courtesy thing. If I demonstrate right off the bat that I have nothing to hide, then I give the officer less reason to look for something wrong.

It's a traffic stop, remember? Don't add to anything that could constitute probable cause to make the contact go further or longer than necessary.

My courtesy has resulted in two of the three stops ending with no citation being issued. The one that ended with a citation was for an expired inspection sticker on a sports car I drive very infrequently. I was on the way to get an inspection, but was in a Dallas suburb where they ticket you for breathing without a permit. . .

Even if you DO get a citation (hey, you WERE speeding, right? :whistling:) the cop was only doing his/her job. Most cops I ever worked with or knew would MUCH rather be chasing real criminals, but their bosses have them doing revenue collection--so again, don't just the cop simply because they drew the short-straw for traffic enforcement that day/week/month.

JD

NMOFT
05-09-2012, 22:13
It seems to me that itís self-evident that being disarmed is the very definition of being treated like a criminal or at least like a criminal suspect. Whether itís a cop or TSA doesn't matter, when someone is asked or forced to disarm they are being treated like a criminal.

Some have posted that they're ok with being disarmed during a traffic stop because itís a safety issue for the police. I find this attitude troubling. How is your safety or the cop's safety enhanced by you being disarmed? I would think if you are fit to carry a gun, the opposite would be true.

I have never been disarmed during a traffic stop, the cops in west Texas never show the slightest interest in whether or not I have a gun, but if it ever happens I will comply with all the grace and courtesy I can muster, but I will resent it as deeply as I resent TSA's intrusiveness.

The relevant question is when it is appropriate for the cops to treat people like criminals. The obvious answer is when they are engaging in criminal activity. Ten mph over the speed limit or wanting to board an airplane doesn't rise to this standard. IMHO.

TBO
05-09-2012, 22:24
Is there a difference between:



Subject of LE contact
Suspicious person
Suspect
Criminal Suspect

wprebeck
05-09-2012, 22:34
It seems to me that itís self-evident that being disarmed is the very definition of being treated like a criminal or at least like a criminal suspect. Whether itís a cop or TSA doesn't matter, when someone is asked or forced to disarm they are being treated like a criminal.

Some have posted that they're ok with being disarmed during a traffic stop because itís a safety issue for the police. I find this attitude troubling. How is your safety or the cop's safety enhanced by you being disarmed? I would think if you are fit to carry a gun, the opposite would be true.

I have never been disarmed during a traffic stop, the cops in west Texas never show the slightest interest in whether or not I have a gun, but if it ever happens I will comply with all the grace and courtesy I can muster, but I will resent it as deeply as I resent TSA's intrusiveness.

The relevant question is when it is appropriate for the cops to treat people like criminals. The obvious answer is when they are engaging in criminal activity. Ten mph over the speed limit or wanting to board an airplane doesn't rise to this standard. IMHO.

Umm...it's a hard one, but I think I figured out the answer to the above question:

If I disarm you during our little time together, you can't try to shoot me. This obviously enhances MY safety. It also tends to help you remain without additional holes, by not granting you access to a weapon during the encounter and possibly deciding to start a gunfight.

Please keep in mind that police aren't psychic. We tend to be able to read folks better than average, but if we were truly able to know what an individual was thinking - there'd be one less cop murdered by a CCW permit holder in Ohio, now wouldn't there?


As has been discussed ad nauseum on here, the mere possession of a permit to carry a firearm doesn't automatically mean you're not gonna do something bad. Seen it before, will unfortunately see it again. Until such time as I can infallibly read minds, if i think you're hinky, I'll disarm you during a contact. If that is upsetting, I'd suggest hanging out on a few ridealongs in the bad area of your nearest large city - or grow thicker skin. Either way is good.

RussP
05-10-2012, 05:33
When the level of agitation and aggression on the LEO's part exceeds that of what a "reasonable person" would consider appropriate, given the circumstances.Interesting tag to your thought there, and an important one.

What are those circumstances which might control those levels?

You say "agitation", and "aggression". Why didn't you say "behavior"? Are they the only two behavioral elements that one could find inappropriate?

jdavionic
05-10-2012, 05:49
If that is upsetting, I'd suggest hanging out on a few ridealongs in the bad area of your nearest large city - or grow thicker skin. Either way is good.

Never did the ride along. However I helped out on a civilian patrol in a not-so-nice area. It was an organization that worked well with the police and we OC'd. They also had issued shirts and hats to the participants. Quite an interesting experience. Many of the people thought we were cops because of the attire and constant interaction with them. Did that matter? Nope. Within the first hour of patrolling on bikes and foot, someone threatened to shoot me and the guy I was patrolling with...and they thought we were cops :rofl: Imagine if they didn't :supergrin:

I have many additional reasons why I advocate extending a polite and cooperative attitude toward LE. In talking with friends in LE and the example of above, you learn to appreciate that they have a tough job. I just figure why make it tougher by being an obnoxious non-criminal.

Now that doesn't mean that I'll be a doormat. If a cop is being rude to me or violating my rights, he/she will hear about it both informally and formally. I had one time where the officer was initially rude. I already provided the details in the past. However he was nervous and rightfully so given where I was and the fact that I was armed, and it was not immediately obvious why I was there. However I was polite and cooperative and his demeanor improved. Amazing how well that seems to work.

RussP
05-10-2012, 06:09
Never did the ride along. However I helped out on a civilian patrol in a not-so-nice area. It was an organization that worked well with the police and we OC'd. They also had issued shirts and hats to the participants. Quite an interesting experience. Many of the people thought we were cops because of the attire and constant interaction with them. Did that matter? Nope. Within the first hour of patrolling on bikes and foot, someone threatened to shoot me and the guy I was patrolling with...and they thought we were cops :rofl: Imagine if they didn't :supergrin:Sounds interesting. Was this organization an armed version of neighborhood watch?

For those here who might be interested in doing something similar where they live, was the organization unique to your location or is it a nationally recognized group?

What type of training was required to participate in armed patrols interacting with residents of the neighborhood, training for the interaction part?

Yeah, sounds interesting, and useful to get residents active in protecting their own neighborhood.

jdavionic
05-10-2012, 06:58
Sounds interesting. Was this organization an armed version of neighborhood watch?
The "armed" part was out of self preservation. It was not required to participate, but it certainly was desired once you saw what you were getting into. However they didn't allow everyone to be armed simply because they were legally allowed to be armed. There were some additional requirements, which I don't recall. I only did it for a short duration during a visit. He lives about 800 miles from me, so it was a one-time deal for me. They were short some people, he knew my background, and my state has reciprocity with his state.

He and another guy started it because they saw crime spinning out of control in the area. My BIL owns & manages property there (many funny stories with that one) and the other guy lives there. The other participants, myself excluded, all live there.

For those here who might be interested in doing something similar where they live, was the organization unique to your location or is it a nationally recognized group?
It was local and very unique to that specific location.

What type of training was required to participate in armed patrols interacting with residents of the neighborhood, training for the interaction part?
I'd have to ask him for the specifics. However I know that not everyone can be armed. As I said above, he knows my background; therefore we didn't really discuss it. I can tell you that one of the guys was not armed, except for non-lethal items. It's important to note though, even an unarmed participate can get you into bad trouble very quickly. I don't want to distract from this thread though.

Yeah, sounds interesting, and useful to get residents active in protecting their own neighborhood.

It was very useful. The cops that spoke with us throughout the night were very friendly and seemingly appreciative. We were essentially the eyes & ears for them. It was not our goal to even stop crimes in progress. We simply would call in crimes if we saw them and provide the police with information so they could do their jobs. Simply having us there deterred crime...and as I understand from my BIL, has actually caused several criminals to move into other areas.

The intent for mentioning in this thread was to convey a glimpse into what many LEOs experience every day. By far I don't mean to imply that I consider that I've "walked in their shoes". Not even close.

However let me expand a little on just the first night. We started patrol before sunset. Almost immediately, some guy waited until we passed, shouted many unflattering remarks about cops, and offerred to shoot us (thinking we were cops). Of course he waited until we were well past him. And no...we didn't return or shout anything back. Water off a ducks back. That's just the way it is there.

Still daylight...we'd pass people and say "hi". Many of them were friendly and thanked us for trying to make improvements. Some would give us info on criminal activities.

Sunset...and the roaches come out. :rofl: It was an amazing transformation. I saw two young "ladies" and said hi as I passed them...just like we did when it was light out. They responded by yelling many obscenities about me, my mother, etc. Water off a ducks back.

Nighttime the drug dealers, muggers, thieves, prostitutes, and pimps flooded the streets. They would look for the slightest bit of fear, nervousness, etc. I grew up in a very rough area near Miami...so it was nothing new to me. However, people that are not used to this environment will get eaten alive. Main intent was obviously to intimidate the patrol.

Long winded...and I apologize for that. However, many (not all) cops endure this every single day they work. They chose their career path...true. But I try to get folks to understand that LE deal with the scum that most of us rarely see and they do so on a daily basis. So when a cop stops you and asks for ID even though you're just walking about OC'ing (for example), is it really that hard to just be cooperative and polite to the guy/gal? Don't they have enough crap to deal with without having non-criminals dish more of it out? Sure, if you believe they are violating your rights, you can take the matter up in both an informal and formal (if you think it's needed) manner. But geez, I just don't get the mentality of "us vs. them" that I often see. It's their job to respond to calls of a suspicious person based on ANOTHER civilian who probably made the call.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox.

Sorry if I strayed too much off topic, Russ. Feel free to delete if you deem necessary.

eccho
05-10-2012, 15:32
My college has a policy that even having a knife stored in your vehicle in the parking lot can get a student expelled, event though state laws regarding weapon free zones do not mention colleges.

If any of you carry in my college, the worst they could do is ask you to leave (you can be arrested for trespassing if you don't).

But because I am one of their students they can expel me, put me on academic probation or suspend me. This could affect my whole college career, and thus the rest of my life.

I can understand the right to manage private property, and I can even understand not allowing students to carry on campus. (although I really really don't like it, I can live with that).

I cannot understand, the logic behind making the assumption that a stowed weapon in my car is a threat to campus safety. If I have every right to carry a loaded glock 19C into a mcdonalds, why can't I leave my weapon, or even a small knife in my car while I'm at class.

I asked the college administration where the property lines were, so I could park off their property, and everyone involved looked at me like I was some kind of psycho.

There policy restricts college students of all ages from excersing their rights to and from campus, which I think is just not right.

Thousands of dollars have been paid for me to be here, and it isn't right for them to use that as leverage to keep me from stowing a legal firearm in a parking lot when as far as the police are concerned it is perfectly legal.

I don't feel treated like a criminal, I just don't feel like I am particularly respected.

RussP
05-10-2012, 16:21
You will notice that many posts are no longer visible.

Back at Post 151 I asked that we get back to the original topic of what does being treated like a criminal mean to those who carry.

Some of y'all didn't get the message. If you want to discuss the topics that were deleted, start new threads in the appropriate forums, not just Carry Issues.

Thanks...

RussP
05-10-2012, 16:23
Sorry if I strayed too much off topic, Russ. Feel free to delete if you deem necessary.No, and now the question tying this to the thread's topic.

Do you believe your actions and those of the officers working with the group improved the understanding of why police approach individuals, why they ask certain questions, why the are sometimes firmer in their approach?

Or, did everyone still feel that anytime police, or there representatives, were present, everyone was considered a criminal and treated as such?

Did anyone y'all talked to, residents in that neighborhood, comment on being treated like criminals?

Thanks

jdavionic
05-10-2012, 17:00
Do you believe your actions and those of the officers working with the group improved the understanding of why police approach individuals, why they ask certain questions, why the are sometimes firmer in their approach?
Yes...to all of the above. However I would add a couple of more from a different perspective. I also believe that the police genuinely appreciated what we were doing. I believe they were completely at ease being around us, even though most of us were armed. And I believe they understood that we were not out there 'playing cop wannabe'...that we were truly trying to make a difference in the community and that, even though most of us were armed, we were not out looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

Point being, I think it cut both ways...hmm, sort of like the way Cop Talk is meant to work.:cool: Help break down the barriers that sometimes exist between LE and civilians. I can sense an 'us versus them' tone on both sides...even just within this thread.

Perhaps the gent that says he shoots USPSA should look into organizing or participating in LEO matches. We put on a match locally each year. It serves many purposes. Just a thought.

Or, did everyone still feel that anytime police, or there representatives, were present, everyone was considered a criminal and treated as such?
The police interaction with us was one of mutual respect. There are not enough police to do what we were doing. So we were working together for a common cause...helping the community. I could elaborate, but I think I've made the relevant point.

Did anyone y'all talked to, residents in that neighborhood, comment on being treated like criminals?
:rofl:Several funny stories, but the short answer is "yes". As I say, many people thought we were actually cops. In the daylight, folks were mostly polite and thankful. At night, much different. An odd aside...some people who were committing crimes were extremely irrate because they felt their crime was somehow not really a crime or insignificant in comparison to "real crimes".

fletch_man
05-10-2012, 17:27
If you are that sensitive, you shouldn't be carrying a pistol. I've been treated with disrespect by women, bosses, store clerks, waiters, doctors and bank tellers. Chances are they won't shoot you if there is a misunderstanding. When dealing with police, first pass the attitude test. Yes Sir, No Sir, and obey all commands until the excitement is over. Don't make jokes, don't pretend to run, don't mess with their heads, just do what they say and all will work out well. You have 100% of the power to de-escalate any tense situation involving the police. It's just common sense.

Glock!9
05-10-2012, 19:11
I am very late to this party but i'll chime in anyways.
i have been called "anti-police" here, to be honest i am not a huge fan.
My experiences when carrying legally with a CCW permit has been almost always positive. I had a rookie (told to me by his superior) pull on me a freak out but he was controlled by his SGT. I have been disarmed, and that did bother me and made me feel as though I did something wrong.
If have never been but if i were cuffed I would feel like i was being treated as a criminal. I do see in a very few circumstances that it could be necessary to no fault of mine or the police.

Misty02
05-10-2012, 19:27
You will notice that many posts are no longer visible.

Back at Post 151 I asked that we get back to the original topic of what does being treated like a criminal mean to those who carry.

Some of y'all didn't get the message. If you want to discuss the topics that were deleted, start new threads in the appropriate forums, not just Carry Issues.

Thanks...

Well, DARNÖ I missed the whole thing?!?
:outtahere:

Misty02
05-10-2012, 19:32
If you are that sensitive, you shouldn't be carrying a pistol. I've been treated with disrespect by women, bosses, store clerks, waiters, doctors and bank tellers. Chances are they won't shoot you if there is a misunderstanding. When dealing with police, first pass the attitude test. Yes Sir, No Sir, and obey all commands until the excitement is over. Don't make jokes, don't pretend to run, don't mess with their heads, just do what they say and all will work out well. You have 100% of the power to de-escalate any tense situation involving the police. It's just common sense.

Not even a little? Come on! Why should I treat them any different than everyone else?

(j/kÖ. kind of) :supergrin:

.

MisterMark
05-10-2012, 21:58
Never been 'treated like a criminal'
Pulled over five times in 25 years, first four were legit and I wished
the officer a nice day after getting the ticket. Sincerely.

The fifth left my jaw on the floor. The cop ordered me not to open my glovebox, which prevented me from showing the insurance and... well he was angry and took it out on me.

None ever treated me like a criminal. Most people I have known who make that claim spin the story and refuse to face their own fault in the situation.

But my cousin's uncles best friend blah blah blah once heard of a guy who blah blah blah the cop was a jerk and treated him like a criminal... those stories are a dime a dozen.

Misty02
05-11-2012, 00:13
Very well, some of you asked for it! I posted about this elsewhere this past December when it happened. You all get to endure the misery of a long post now as well! So there! :tongueout:

*****
My oldest son ended up in handcuffs (that didnít fit, who uses metal cuffs this day and age?) last weekend during a camping trip. The reason I didnít post about it was because, after the fact, they found the entire experience hysterical, I really didnít want any possible comments about it possibly being unlawful to detract from us all nearly falling to the floor laughing.

The summary (no, I donít know how to post a thought in less than 1,000 words) as I understand it from my oldest son, youngest son, girlfriend from oldest son and one of their friends is as follows:

There were 16 of them, not a single one with the slightest camping experience, that went camping at Big Cypress National Preserve. They have wildlife there, among them panthers, bears, alligators, deer, hogs, poisonous snakes and scorpions, not to mention a great variety of birds. My youngest is the sensible one that took a variety of tools for erecting the tents, build a fire and the like. The oldest saw it as an opportunity to wear and take a variety of stuff he wouldnít be able to take anywhere else.

The week before their trip I started sending them video clips of bear attacks, people that were roughing it with nature and didnít succeed and the like. They wanted me to go as well; however, my idea of roughing it is not having room service, they wanted to stay in the area that didnít even bathrooms!! Needless to say, I had an enormous amount of fun messing with their minds before the trip. I sent them links of packing checklists containing items people should take for such a dangerous adventure.

When the day came they had stripped my house of all first aid and safety items as well as buying a whole bunch of other things. Not counting the food, they had two trunk fulls of survival stuff. (Have I mentioned it was a one night and two half days trip?) I had them all excited, but terrified. They wore long pants, long sleeves, steel shoe boots, hunting knives, machetes, knives, snake bite kits, the works. We had a regular tent, but that wasnít enough, they bought a three room tent that was huge! Others in the group took normal size tents.

I had called the reserve for additional information, I only shared with them part of the information I received. The part I shared was about there being hundreds of black bears there, the part I didnít was that they were more afraid of people than people were of them and there had never been a report of one of them attacking hikers or campers.

Anyway, they get there, set up their tents, cook, eat, some of them started drinking, normal camping trip kind of stuff. One of them took a hookah to smoke flavored tobacco. Neither of mine had ever come across that and originally thought they were smoking something else. Apparently, so did the rangers that had been quietly observing for a while. Out of nowhere (so they say) two officers were screaming at them to not move and identifying themselves as police. They were fanning out around the campers giving the impression there were more than two of them. Eventually the officers came close enough to see the shinny and wooden part of the Ruger Security Six 357 magnum revolver Rambo had (the officerís name for my oldest, not mine). They immediately had him stand up as one of the officers placed the metal cuffs on him. They were on the first click and he says they hurt a lot. While handcuffed they asked him to kneel, not easy for someone his size and unbalanced weight. Then they asked him to cross his feet while kneeling. His account of this part was just hysterical! Where do the officers get off asking him to do all this ballerina kind of stuff? Canít they see that crossing his feet with those huge steel toe boots is anything but easy? ďIím trying, Iím trying!Ē he kept repeating to the officers. His brother said he would have laughed had he not been so terrified (same comment from his girlfriend). Then they turned to the group and asked who else had weapons. All 16 responded in the affirmative. They narrowed it further by asking who else had firearms, that narrowed it down to my youngest and the girlfriend of the one handcuffed. They immediately said they had a license to carry.

The officers asked my oldest, who was handcuffed at the time, to stand up. He nearly had to pick me off the floor from laughing so hard as he described the difficulties he had first uncrossing his feet and then standing up without assistance while handcuffed. He took the holstered Ruger out of his deep cargo pants pocket and then removed it from the holster. The revolver as well as the rounds were placed on top of the trunk of the closest vehicle, he removed his hunting knife and laid it on the trunk as well. The sheath of the hunting knife has outside pockets for the snake kit and other survival stuff. He originally thought that the contents of a sealed plastic bag in one of those pockets were drugs; my son told him what it was. Then he comes across the expandable metal baton (I didnít know he had taken that too) asking if that is what HE thought it was. Then he proceeded to check the various pockets in his cargo pants. Before anyone says anything, I should mention that my son consented to the search. Well, it took the officer quite a bit of time and was exhausted by the time he finished, the trunk of the vehicle was filled with an assortment of weapons and survival stuff. At one point my youngest told the officers (without moving a muscle) that it was the first time his brother had a chance to carry all that stuff at once. The officer told him to be quiet and turned to his brother to ask if he had anything more, he didnít quite know how to tell him that there was yet another knife strapped inside the pants over his boot. To which the exhausted officerís response was ďyou have to be kidding me!Ē

After they were finished with him and asking if anyone else had as many weapons as Rambo there (pointing at the oldest of my boys) they turned to my youngest and asked for his carry license. Then to the girlfriend, hers was in her purse that was in the tent. One of the officers accompanied her to retrieve it, she was so nervous she couldnít find it. She says she had visions of being handcuffed and hauled to jail. Her mother doesnít have a favorable opinion on firearms so she took this opportunity to tell me if sheís ever in that kind of trouble and has to call someone from jail; it is me who she will be calling.

Once they confirmed all weapons there appeared legal, no illegal drugs and obviously a bunch of young people just having fun at a camping ground they relaxed some. They apologized for the intrusion and explained you never know when something like that could turn ugly for them. They stuck around for a bit offering tips about the wildlife and how if they came across a python snake it was ok to kill it and report it so they could keep track of the encounters. Apparently they are not indigenous to the area, in absence of regular predators they are growing in great numbers. Everyone relaxed some and a good time was had by all thereafter.

The officer encounter took place past 10 PM their first day there. The following day they did a bit of the trail. The most dangerous wildlife they encountered were a couple of bees intent on stinging them. Among all the carried weapons they had nothing that would work against those bees other than running and finally finding refuge in their vehicle.

The whole reason for the camping trip was to celebrate the birthday of a girl in the group, that is what she wanted to do. Needless to say, it was a birthday she will not forget any time soon.

I have a feeling the whole thing was a lot funnier as I heard their stories rather than having been there. Although, I wish I could have seen the officerís face after he finished searching "Rambo".

They had a blast! Absent that encounter it would have been an uneventful and kind of boring camping trip. They were prepared for all sort of animal attacks. Other than the bees and many mosquitoes, they saw none. As it is, theyíll be telling that story for many years to come but not with any resentment or upset, more like gasping for air while laughing. I have a feeling the officers involved may have retold it at least a couple of times themselves.

Could he have had bitter memories of the encounter of being treated like a criminal? Sure. Instead they recount the experience as an adventure theyíll never forget. I told them they could file a complaint if they wanted to. They couldnít understand why I would suggest such a thing as they all had a blast.

Perception and attitude is everything! For many this would have been a terribly traumatic event. For them it was adventure!

BTW, open carry to, during, and from camping is legal in Florida.
.

MisterMark
05-11-2012, 06:38
Then they asked him to cross his feet while kneeling. His account of this part was just hysterical! Where do the officers get off asking him to do all this ballerina kind of stuff? Canít they see that crossing his feet with those huge steel toe boots is anything but easy? ďIím trying, Iím trying!Ē he kept repeating to the officers. His brother said he would have laughed had he not been so terrified (same comment from his girlfriend).

It is probably a balance thing. If someone wants to start trouble taking them off balance is an excellent first defense. Making him cross his feet probably kept him thinking 'why do I have to cross my feet' instead of 'when he gets close I am going to...' as well as physically impeding any aggressive action.

the whole walking up to a bunch of 'dangerous criminals' when you are so outnumbered and outgunned and treating them like that is another discussion that I would like hear from a LEO on.

RussP
05-11-2012, 07:21
the whole walking up to a bunch of 'dangerous criminals' when you are so outnumbered and outgunned and treating them like that is another discussion that I would like hear from a LEO on.Start a thread in Cop Talk, http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30