Gun instructor arrested after teaching four-hour class [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TBO
03-08-2012, 04:08
http://lexington.wistv.com/news/crime/51671-sled-gun-instructor-arrested-after-teaching-four-hour-class

Brucev
03-08-2012, 06:03
The class and its requirements are without any basis in the COTUS. There is no reason supportable in the Constitution for any government to be allowed to restrict by such regulation a citizen's exercise of their 2nd Amendment rights. It matters not if the "class" is 4 minutes long or 4 hours or four weeks. Picture the exact same restriction by regulation of a citizen's 1st Amendment rights to free speech by requiring attendance at a govt. mandated training class, etc.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 06:29
The class and its requirements are without any basis in the COTUS. There is no reason supportable in the Constitution for any government to be allowed to restrict by such regulation a citizen's exercise of their 2nd Amendment rights. It matters not if the "class" is 4 minutes long or 4 hours or four weeks. Picture the exact same restriction by regulation of a citizen's 1st Amendment rights to free speech by requiring attendance at a govt. mandated training class, etc.

While I donít disagree with you, as a student, I would expect to receive what I paid for. If I pad for the required class to get my license and that class is required to be 8 hours, giving me anything less than that (in my eyes) it would be fraud and theft.

As a student, Iíve attended training classes that have been longer than advertised. I truly appreciate the instructorís dedication to answer all our questions and go beyond what I actually paid for, that is neither required nor expected, they have just been willing to freely give more of their time. That would yield a very sincere ďthank you!Ē. However, give me less than 5 minutes of what I paid for or donít cover what was in the course outline properly and weíll have issues.

.

eracer
03-08-2012, 06:35
The class and its requirements are without any basis in the COTUS. There is no reason supportable in the Constitution for any government to be allowed to restrict by such regulation a citizen's exercise of their 2nd Amendment rights. It matters not if the "class" is 4 minutes long or 4 hours or four weeks. Picture the exact same restriction by regulation of a citizen's 1st Amendment rights to free speech by requiring attendance at a govt. mandated training class, etc.
There are lots of things that flow from the Constitution, but are not explicitly delineated within it.

There is a difference between speech and guns.

LoadToadBoss
03-08-2012, 06:50
From the article:

"Four hours is not enough time to even cut the surface with how to operate a firearm safely, where to store it safely, and how to operate the gun," Phillips said.

Really? You need 8 hours to teach these things?

RussP
03-08-2012, 08:00
Regardless of the Constitutionality of the law, it exists, the requirements within the law exist.

The instructor violated the law.

He was arrested.

He is charged with illegal instruction.

Now, if you want to use this as a springboard to challenge the law in court...

ithaca_deerslayer
03-08-2012, 12:55
Hmm, wonder if the law actually specifies exactly 8 hours, in some legally binding way that a defense lawyer can't challenge.

NYS permit courses are typically not allowed to be live fire (because the counties don't want them to be). 4 hours is long enough for a safety course.

If including live fire and the shooting instruction that goes with that, then 8 hours would be needed for sure (depending on size of class and number of instructors).

Was this guy supposed to be instructing live fire?

poodleplumber
03-08-2012, 15:48
I guess I am really old fashioned, but to me this is a matter of integrity. The instructor signed off that he gave an eight hour class, and he didn't. That is what I call a lie. If he disagrees that eight hours are required, he can and should work to have the requirements changed, but a lie is a lie.

Brucev
03-08-2012, 17:14
There are lots of things that flow from the Constitution, but are not explicitly delineated within it.

There is a difference between speech and guns.

Who gets to decide which Constitutional right is to be restricted and which one is to be granted special status? How is speech to be considered a privileged Constitutional right while the right to keep and bear arms is qualified?

smokin762
03-08-2012, 18:50
I would be ticked, if I paid for a CCW Class and the Certificate was no good.:steamed:

dosei
03-08-2012, 19:09
Hmm, wonder if the law actually specifies exactly 8 hours, in some legally binding way that a defense lawyer can't challenge.

NYS permit courses are typically not allowed to be live fire (because the counties don't want them to be). 4 hours is long enough for a safety course.

If including live fire and the shooting instruction that goes with that, then 8 hours would be needed for sure (depending on size of class and number of instructors).

Was this guy supposed to be instructing live fire?

SC laws spec out the minimum requirements for the course. Instructors can go "above & beyond" if they chose to (the good ones do). Generally, the largest chunk of class time is consumed by covering and clarifying the laws...which should come as no surprise to anyone here. After all, "what if/can I" scenarios & questions run pretty rampent here as well.

cowboy1964
03-08-2012, 21:57
The class and its requirements are without any basis in the COTUS. There is no reason supportable in the Constitution for any government to be allowed to restrict by such regulation a citizen's exercise of their 2nd Amendment rights. It matters not if the "class" is 4 minutes long or 4 hours or four weeks. Picture the exact same restriction by regulation of a citizen's 1st Amendment rights to free speech by requiring attendance at a govt. mandated training class, etc.

What does that have to do with this story?

This isn't a 2nd Amendment story, it's a story about breaking laws and scamming people.

cowboy1964
03-08-2012, 22:04
Who gets to decide which Constitutional right is to be restricted and which one is to be granted special status? How is speech to be considered a privileged Constitutional right while the right to keep and bear arms is qualified?

The 1st Amendment isn't absolute either. It doesn't give one the right to induce panic or slander people, for example.

kensteele
03-08-2012, 22:09
"The students in Hill's class, who only went through 4 hours of training, could also face perjury charges if they submit their permit application to SLED indicating they took an 8-hour class."

Doesn't this imply the students were culpable? I am asking WITHOUT reading the permit application.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 22:09
What does that have to do with this story?

This isn't a 2nd Amendment story, it's a story about breaking laws and scamming people.

That is the way I see it as well, perception is everything. This man promised to do a job he didnít do. He charged people for a required class that had specific parameters. He broke the law by not doing the job he was licensed to do and stole from those that paid him for it. While the revised application that his students signed might not have had all the wording about the 8 hour certificate (not really an excuse, but I know most people donít inform themselves well in these matters), the certificate he signed attesting he had provided the required course did.

Like you, I donít see what this has to do with whether or not training should be mandatory or whether or not requiring a license/permit is constitutional or not.

.

Sharkey
03-08-2012, 22:16
If they covered the required material and the students passed the written portion of the test, I really don't see the need to arrest him. If it was an issue they could have talked to him rather than send an undercover in to arrest him.

I can't tell you how many classes I've attended that ended early. I guess I'm a cheat too because I took the certificate.

Rev.357
03-08-2012, 22:17
It's sad!! I know these guys & Cap. Chris is a great christian man that wants to help people. For someone like Hill to be more interasted in getting the money & a quick class just to run these people through is just bad. We know it takes much longer than 8hrs of gun training to be where you need to be.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 22:25
"The students in Hill's class, who only went through 4 hours of training, could also face perjury charges if they submit their permit application to SLED indicating they took an 8-hour class."

Doesn't this imply the students were culpable? I am asking WITHOUT reading the permit application.

We discussed this one a while ago. This is the link of the application to be completed by the student, posted in the stateís website: http://www.sled.sc.gov/documents/CWPApplicationForm.pdf (http://www.sled.sc.gov/documents/CWPApplicationForm.pdf)

This is a copy of the training certificate: http://www.sled.sc.gov/documents/CWP/CWPTrainingCertificate.pdf (http://www.sled.sc.gov/documents/CWP/CWPTrainingCertificate.pdf) I donít know if this is a required or suggested certificate for use.

From the previous thread:


The application doesnít ask if they took an 8 hour class and they fired a weapon, it merely asks ďDo you certify successful completion of handgun training (Section 23-31-210, SC Code of Laws)? It requires a Yes/No answer.

What would be the assumption of the average person after paying a certified instructor for a class?

.

People often have the nasty habit of signing on the dotted line without questioning or fully understanding what they are signing. Although, I can almost understand how someone might answer ďyesĒ after paying an NRA certified instructor for a class.

I like showing my family things like this and use it as a reminder when they believe Iím being unreasonable in taking the time to read the fine, light gray print on the back of sales contracts and converting a 10 minute vehicle purchase into a one hour inquisition. (we wonít go into how long the closing of either home took since I had to read every piece of paper they gave me to sign). :embarassed:

.

cole
03-09-2012, 15:10
What does that have to do with this story? This isn't a 2nd Amendment story, it's a story about breaking laws and scamming people.

This is correct. Too often, IMO, folks look for any opportunity, however far-fetched, to further their agenda and spread their message. However, when they stretch and fabricate an unrelated scenario to fit their agenda, I feel it undermines what is otherwise a very important message and makes them, and those that support the message, appear fanatic. Guns, CCW/OP and 2A gets this a lot IMO. And, both sides do it.

Arc Angel
03-09-2012, 15:38
If only 4 hours of instruction were provided when 8 hours were, both, paid for AND required then somebody's got to make up the difference. I mean, imagine what it must be like to have your first pistol, your first CCW permit, and turned loose on the street! Some people, probably the more rational ones, are going to be upset; and, in my opinion, they have every right to be.

As has already been said: This thread isn't about Second Amendment rights; instead it's all about taking advantage of the system and scamming people out of important information they might, someday, genuinely need.

SpringerTGO
03-09-2012, 15:51
If they covered the required material and the students passed the written portion of the test, I really don't see the need to arrest him. If it was an issue they could have talked to him rather than send an undercover in to arrest him.

I can't tell you how many classes I've attended that ended early. I guess I'm a cheat too because I took the certificate.

I used to teach a motorcycle safety class. On rare occasions, I might get a group of experienced riders taking the class so they could get their licenses. I could speed up the riding portion of the class because they all knew how to ride, and didn't need 20 minutes of learning where controls were, shifting, etc. I thought I was doing them a favor, since they all knew this stuff and would pass the class anyways.
It turned out, they wanted their riding time regardless, and I was told to have them ride for the entire time stated in the course outline.

Sharkey
03-09-2012, 18:55
I used to teach a motorcycle safety class. On rare occasions, I might get a group of experienced riders taking the class so they could get their licenses. I could speed up the riding portion of the class because they all knew how to ride, and didn't need 20 minutes of learning where controls were, shifting, etc. I thought I was doing them a favor, since they all knew this stuff and would pass the class anyways.
It turned out, they wanted their riding time regardless, and I was told to have them ride for the entire time stated in the course outline.


As a rider for 10 years and being new to it, I did appreciate the MSF class. No doubt I benefited by using the enitre time of the class. That said, maybe the students were experienced, maybe not. I will sayt there is a bit more skill required to ride than shoot.

All that being said, how do we go to an undercover op with an arrest for something that is a crime only because it's written as law. I would consider it more of a state licensing regulation. If he was a problem instructor, there were a lot better ways to handle it. Heck, worse case, pull his instructor license.

Arc Angel
03-10-2012, 07:00
As a rider for 10 years and being new to it, I did appreciate the MSF class. No doubt I benefited by using the enitre time of the class. That said, maybe the students were experienced, maybe not. I will sayt there is a bit more skill required to ride than shoot.

All that being said, how do we go to an undercover op with an arrest for something that is a crime only because it's written as law. I would consider it more of a state licensing regulation. If he was a problem instructor, there were a lot better ways to handle it. Heck, worse case, pull his instructor license.

:shocked: You're not really serious, are you?

I rode for about a decade, too. Pretty crazy stuff! I got to the point where I thought 75 mph was, 'cruising speed'. True story: I knew my, 'love affair' with bikes couldn't possibly last forever.

The morning my son was born I left the hospital, went home, and took my bike out of the garage. Then I drove rode it over to a local bike shop and accepted less money for it than I had into the custom features, alone. Why did I do that? I did it because I wanted to live long enough to see my boy grow up; and in my, 'heart of hearts' I knew that bike and me had, at some point in the not too distant future, a date with doom.

Still is bike riding more difficult to do than shooting? Well, in a way, yes it is; but I'd say this applies more to simple shooting rather than any of the really fast and accurate things you can do with a gun. Perhaps you mean there's more of a potential, 'rush' to riding a bike than there is to just standing on a line and pulling the trigger?

True I've never come off a firing line reeling from an, 'adrenaline high' in the same way I, once, did after riding a bike through, let's say, the long sinuous curves on a Laurentian highway; or after canting the bike through repeated, right and left, 'knee scrapes' along the high cliffs above Port Jervis; but, that's not to say it's easy to put down a whole row of steel plates at 300 + yards, or to stand back at 15 yards and rapidly dump an entire pistol magazine into the center of a 9" paper plate in only 4 or 5 seconds!

Shooting like this can be a, 'rush' too; and, in my experience, very few of the shooters you're ever going to meet will be able to handle a firearm like this. In my opinion, 'the law is the law' because: (1) Somebody took the time to stop and really think about things; and (2) whether you're on a bike or shooting a gun, certain talents and safety skills are necessary in order to avoid mishap (or even death) to both yourself and others.

Cutting the time period for that firearm safety and handling course by half was a very dishonest thing for that fellow to do. He reminds me of the complete jerk who taught my Florida CCW license class; and I got 'a tell you: What an absolute scam that course was! (Everyone who did NOT shoot themselves in the foot while they were at the range passed!)

Misty02
03-10-2012, 08:37
Cutting the time period for that firearm safety and handling course by half was a very dishonest thing for that fellow to do. He reminds me of the complete jerk who taught my Florida CCW license class; and I got 'a tell you: What an absolute scam that course was! (Everyone who did NOT shoot themselves in the foot while they were at the range passed!)


Most people with little or no exposure to the licensing process and requirements may be quick to state that the course they attended to in Florida is a scam. The fact is that our requirement is not the same as what may be required in other states. In Florida you donít have to put a hole in a silhouette size piece of paper, as long as you safely handle and discharge the firearm, you pass.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/Temp/T044097522.pdf#page=1 (http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/Temp/T044097522.pdf#page=1) as stated in the application the only requirement (bottom of page 5) is that the instructor observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm.

Because the requirement is low and because most people desire to get the most value for their money, it is important that those of us that understand it better provide some guidance to friends and acquaintances that have expressed an interest in going through the process.

Iíve heard of people paying $90 and getting the bare basic requirements (a lot of money for little value). Iíve also attended (in addition to my own) 2 other classes (the one for my youngest son and my future daughter-in-law) that were $70 and below, they offered a comprehensive classroom class (laws, review of the statutes, etc) as well as safety and some basic shooting training. In the last one I attended the instructor taught the actual shooting part with both a revolver (38 special) and a pistol (9mm). He taught the students how to hold the firearm, use of the sights, etc. Of the three Iíve personally attended, this was the most comprehensive. Even the classroom part was nearly 4 hours with the instructor answering every question students posed. Mine wasnít bad, but it was taught using a .22 pistol and that short part of the class was only geared to safe handling, not how to properly hold the firearm, aim and the like.

The one thing consistent in every course Iíve personally attended was the instructorís comment that the class for the certificate was just the beginning, that additional training was necessary to safely/accurately handle oneís firearm.

.

Sharkey
03-10-2012, 09:05
:shocked: You're not really serious, are you?

Still is bike riding more difficult to do than shooting? Well, in a way, yes it is;

In my opinion, 'the law is the law' because: (1) Somebody took the time to stop and really think about things; and (2) whether you're on a bike or shooting a gun, certain talents and safety skills are necessary in order to avoid mishap (or even death) to both yourself and others.

Cutting the time period for that firearm safety and handling course by half was a very dishonest thing for that fellow to do. He reminds me of the complete jerk who taught my Florida CCW license class; and I got 'a tell you: What an absolute scam that course was! (Everyone who did NOT shoot themselves in the foot while they were at the range passed!)

Am I not serious about what? I made a couple points in my post.

I am comparing the MSF class to a State regulated CCW class. Yes, you need more skill to ride the cycle. If we were to compare a Gunfighting class to a MotoGP class my answer would be the same - riding takes more skill than shooting.

"The law is the law" is a slippery slope. There are thousands of "regulatory" laws by the feds where breaking them could mean jail time. That should not be the case nor should you arrest the guy because he cut the class in half (I agree it wasn't a smart thing to do).

Every regulatory law that includes the possibility of arrests basically makes criminals out of citizens.

Another example: You roll thru a 4 way stop on a county road at 5am going to work. No other cars are out but the Sheriff sees you and writes you. You broke the law, He was within his right to cite you but perhaps better discretion could have been used.

bug
03-10-2012, 09:19
The class and its requirements are without any basis in the COTUS. There is no reason supportable in the Constitution for any government to be allowed to restrict by such regulation a citizen's exercise of their 2nd Amendment rights. It matters not if the "class" is 4 minutes long or 4 hours or four weeks. Picture the exact same restriction by regulation of a citizen's 1st Amendment rights to free speech by requiring attendance at a govt. mandated training class, etc.

While I agree mostly, would this not fall under states rights to make laws governing there citizens?

This was a State LE agency, if it was a federal I would say that you would be right.
I could be way off here so I am sure someone who actually knows more will be along.

Oramac
03-10-2012, 09:48
From the article:

Four hours is not enough time to even cut the surface with how to operate a firearm safely, where to store it safely, and how to operate the gun," Phillips said.

Really? You need 8 hours to teach these things?


My thoughts exactly. I've taught many friends proper firearm safety and handling in about 30 minutes, much less 8 hours. It's not that complicated.

Now, once you add in lawful use of deadly force and things like that, you add quite a bit of time to the class, but even then 8 hours is overkill. Missouri requires an 8 hour class as well, and when I took mine we covered everything in about 5 hours. Spent the rest of the time talking about tactics, home defense, etc. etc.

Arc Angel
03-10-2012, 09:56
Most people with little or no exposure to the licensing process and requirements may be quick to state that the course they attended to in Florida is a scam.

No reflection on you or your own experiences; but, the Florida course I took was a scam. My wife even leaned over to me as we were leaving and whispered in my ear, 'I've seen you do better a job with Boy Scouts!' (She was right, too!)

"The law is the law" is a slippery slope.

Well ....... Socrates would disagree with you! ;)

Misty02
03-10-2012, 10:46
No reflection on you or your own experiences; but, the Florida course I took was a scam. My wife even leaned over to me as we were leaving and whispered in my ear, 'I've seen you do better a job with Boy Scouts!' (She was right, too!)



Well ....... Socrates would disagree with you! ;)

I should have asked originally: Why do you believe it was a scam?

What did the course lack, or if it was that bad it might be easier and shorter if I ask, what did it include? Did the instructor observe you safely handle and discharge your firearm?

I do agree with you that I wouldnít pay even $5 for some of the courses Iíve seen described by others; however, me finding them worthless doesnít necessarily mean the course doesnít comply with what is required.

I think we're almost on the same page, but I'm not sure.


.

Bill Lumberg
03-10-2012, 12:30
Reminiscent of Buford Tune shooting himself in the hand while teaching a class to security guards. Joy.

Arc Angel
03-10-2012, 12:32
I should have asked originally: Why do you believe it was a scam?

What did the course lack, or if it was that bad it might be easier and shorter if I ask, what did it include? Did the instructor observe you safely handle and discharge your firearm?

I do agree with you that I wouldn’t pay even $5 for some of the courses I’ve seen described by others; however, me finding them worthless doesn’t necessarily mean the course doesn’t comply with what is required.

I think we're almost on the same page, but I'm not sure.

Kudos! Now you have asked the right question - The one I would have preferred to avoid; but I'll answer you, anyway.

Right from the moment we walked in and sat down, the instructor had an air about him that seemed to say, 'I've been up drinking all night.' (I don't know how else to describe the fellow's demeanor?) He really got on the wrong side of me when he began to freely lace his remarks with extraordinarily vulgar profanities. Maybe he thought he was being more descriptive in his explanations; but I, certainly, didn't.

(No, I didn't say anything to him. I, probably, should have; but he started with the vulgarity after he began to feel relaxed and during the last 30 minutes of the course. I had my wife with me, and was really steamed, but decided to, 'ride it out'.)

I'm a Firearms Instructor; moreover, I've lived the life of a professional student and been around other instructors, of one sort or another, all of my long life. This particular, 'instructor' said very little that was really useful; I don't recall him, even once, relating well to the class; instead it was like he was, 'talking in our faces'.

I guess the thing I disliked about him the most was an obvious lack of desire to ....... teach! He expounded on the subject matter as if it were a job - Something he was only interested in being paid to do. During the class he explained that he had just retired from a long career as a police detective and had no prior experience, whatsoever, in teaching anybody, anything. At the end of the class our range experience amounted to: pick up the gun, load one round, point the pistol downrange, and pull the trigger. (Mercifully, perhaps propitiously, I was excused from this part of the course!)

For this nonsense I paid the State of Florida over $150.00! Other than a few idiosyncrasies in local law I learned absolutely nothing either new or useful about guns or gun safety; and, neither did my wife. As we walked out of the room that afternoon I remember thinking to myself, 'I'm going to finish getting the permit and see what I think of it.' At that point, though, I wasn't optimistic; and, as things turned out, I was right!

The fingerprint process turned out to be an ordeal. The classroom technician who took my prints smudged them up, badly. When I pointed out that no self-respecting agency would accept those prints all the man said was, 'Stop worrying!' 'They're good enough.'

They weren't; and I lost over a month's time, had to resubmit, and needed to run all over town in order to find a local agency that would (expeditiously) re:take my fingerprints - IN EXACT ACCORD - with the very particular Florida state requirements. (Which, both, me and the Sheriff's Deputy who re:took my prints almost screwed up!)

Let me tell you: They'll be ice-skating in Hell before I apply for any other state's non-resident CCW license. The one I got from Pennsylvania has turned out to be more than enough. (Stay out of all, but one, of the surrounding states while you're carrying; and you'll be fine!)

The whole experience made my wife and I feel like we'd wasted both our time and our money. When the State of Florida (very efficiently) sent me a HUGE renewal application well in advance of my permit's expiration date, I threw the stupid thing on top of our newspaper recycling pile and promptly forgot about it - until now.

(I don't know whether or not this, 'puts us on the same page' together; but thanks for the opportunity to vent!) :supergrin:

Misty02
03-10-2012, 13:32
I see exactly what youíre saying Arc Angel. It does indeed sound as if it was a waste of time and money, it is a shame you had such an experience. Yes, it puts us in the same page because now Iím able to fully understand where youíre coming from. :)

Some instructors teach firearm courses as a side job because they truly enjoy sharing what they know and wish to help others. They do a wonderful job and donít charge what their time and dedication is truly worth, those are the kind of instructors I wish everyone got to encounter.

There are also people out there, even those at the top of their field, that lack the ability to teach (transfer their knowledge) others. They can do, but they canít teach. Then there are others that just donít give a hoot, want to get paid and donít care whether the students gain anything from the experience. These last two rarely see repeat business or referrals. It sounds as if yours was on the last category.

Since attending my first class and hearing the stories of others that were less than favorable, Iíve made it a point to provide as much guidance as possible to those I know will be venturing into licensing and/or ownership of firearms so their experience is as good as mine, or even better. I have been very fortunate, at first by luck; as time progressed, by design. Now days there is no way I would pay for a firearm class from someone that I have not heard great things about.

.

High Altitude
03-10-2012, 14:01
Seems pretty simple to me.

If the law requires 8 hours, and if the class is advertised at meeting the requirements and the students paid for 8 hours, but the instructor did not do that, than the "instructor" is a scum bag and gets what he deserves.

It is not like the class was let out 5-10 minutes early. This guy is a crook.

kensteele
03-10-2012, 16:28
My thoughts exactly. I've taught many friends proper firearm safety and handling in about 30 minutes, much less 8 hours. It's not that complicated.

Now, once you add in lawful use of deadly force and things like that, you add quite a bit of time to the class, but even then 8 hours is overkill. Missouri requires an 8 hour class as well, and when I took mine we covered everything in about 5 hours. Spent the rest of the time talking about tactics, home defense, etc. etc.

Your class went 3 hours short so your class completion is invalid and you don't qualify to have a MO permit. Turn in your permit and stop carrying your weapon immediately! :rofl:

Oh, wait. you don't need a permit to carry a firearm in your vehicle in MO.....so don't carry it outside. :rofl:

Oh, wait. MO doesn't require it's residents to carry on a MO permit, you are free to get a permit from any other state that would give you one regardless if they have a 8 hr class or no class at all. :rofl:

So much for the 8 hour class concept. My personal opinion is no class at all should be required to get a permit.

LongGoneDays
03-11-2012, 18:58
I'd pay 50% more if they'd just give me the rubber stamp and send me on my way.

Shadyscott69
03-11-2012, 20:15
I know Ray personally. This news did not surprise me in the least.

Deaf Smith
03-11-2012, 20:44
Several years ago in Tennessee a bunch of CCW instructors were arrested for selling certificates under the table.

What was the charge?

MAIL FRAUD. See they sent in the paperwork to the police swearing they are x number of hours of instruction for the students when instead they had zero hours. Money was also sent to the cops to as required. So that was mail fraud.

Just to let you gents know you can be busted several ways if you fake a class.

I taught CHL for 10 years, taught Hunter Safety courses to. I was once offered $$ to pass a guy who needed a hunter safety certificate to hunt in Colorado (back then hunter safety courses charged $10 and ALL of it went to the TPW.) I told him to be there at 8 AM sharp like everyone else. He showed up late and I was tempted to tell him to go to hell but I just dragged the class out and passed him.

So there is a hint... If I would not let a guy buy his way out of a $10 HS class, you can bet your bippy I would not let someone do that with a CHL class. Heck, my wife never got a CHL cause she would not sit there for 10 hours with me babbling!

Deaf

Arc Angel
03-12-2012, 03:07
I know Ray personally. This news did not surprise me in the least.


Now, THAT is a character recommendation! :shocked:

beatcop
03-12-2012, 05:11
I have not read the statutes, but this seems to be an over-reach...the guy enters into a civil agreement to "sell" a product, the product is substandard...? Declare his "product" unfit and suspend his right to certify.

Shadyscott69
03-12-2012, 14:26
Now, THAT is a character recommendation! :shocked:


There were rumors afloat of how a certain instructor {cough, cough} was posting fake negative reviews of other CWP instructors and indoor ranges in this area.

Ray was actually shot in the leg by one of his students about a year ago.

I know a few folks who took Ray's class that are waiting by their mailboxes for that letter from SLED revoking their CWP's. They have revoked them in the past in similar situations.

dosei
03-12-2012, 14:45
I did a LOT of research on CWP classes/instructors before I found one I liked. Part of that research was to insure that I did not get someone like Ray. Sadly many people seek out classes like Ray's, people like the ones here saying they would pay a little more if they didn't even have to go to the class (and there are unscrupulous "instructors" that accommodate them).

Oramac
03-12-2012, 15:14
Your class went 3 hours short so your class completion is invalid and you don't qualify to have a MO permit. Turn in your permit and stop carrying your weapon immediately! :rofl:

Oh, wait. you don't need a permit to carry a firearm in your vehicle in MO.....so don't carry it outside. :rofl:

Oh, wait. MO doesn't require it's residents to carry on a MO permit, you are free to get a permit from any other state that would give you one regardless if they have a 8 hr class or no class at all. :rofl:

So much for the 8 hour class concept. My personal opinion is no class at all should be required to get a permit.

Maybe I was unclear. I did have an 8 hour class, and we did go over everything MO requires. I just got in a class with a bunch of non-dumbasses and we finished everything up faster than 8 hours. To cover the extra time, we talked about related topics, such as home invasion, tactics, useful tips (refrigerator door = mirror, type stuff), and things like that. Overall, it was an excellent class.

Shadyscott69
03-12-2012, 15:26
I did a LOT of research on CWP classes/instructors before I found one I liked. Part of that research was to insure that I did not get someone like Ray. Sadly many people seek out classes like Ray's, people like the ones here saying they would pay a little more if they didn't even have to go to the class (and there are unscrupulous "instructors" that accommodate them).

You would be surprised how many people have offered me 3-4 times my class price to "just sign the paper". Or, maybe you wouldn't be surprised at all.

mdsn969
03-13-2012, 00:28
I would be ticked, if I paid for a CCW Class and the Certificate was no good.:steamed:

Even more ticked because you have to sign an affidavit stating that you attended the 8hr course, not only is your certificate no good but you committed perjury and you will now never get a CCW License...

cowboywannabe
03-13-2012, 00:56
good God, how dangerous it must be in those states that dont require any prerequisits to carry a gun.

Shadyscott69
03-13-2012, 06:19
good God, how dangerous it must be in those states that dont require any prerequisits to carry a gun.

Not even remotely the issue. SC actually had constitutional carry up for a vote last year and probably will again this year. The issue is that Ray broke the existing law.

It all comes down to greed. He actually built and opened his own indoor range to hold his CWP classes. CWP classes were basically his full time job. Multiple classes per week. 20 students per class(8) hour class= $1500 Two 4 hour classes per day = $3000 per day. Actually pretty simple.

smokin762
03-13-2012, 09:42
Even more ticked because you have to sign an affidavit stating that you attended the 8hr course, not only is your certificate no good but you committed perjury and you will now never get a CCW License...


And there's that too.:whistling:

The bottom line is, do everything that is needed and you should be fine. If it seems shaddy, go else where.

dosei
03-13-2012, 10:59
good God, how dangerous it must be in those states that dont require any prerequisits to carry a gun.

Well...stories like these make me wonder about the quality of instruction they received (if any)...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/pistol_whipped_at_wtc_1x32hgT52UNhxkP36ZYAgJ#.TvyTVs-rnG8.facebook

http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/marine-faces-fifteen-years-behind-bars-for-unknowingly-violating-gun-law/

Safety is not the only issue...

IMHO...the class is/should be to make sure the person has a basic understanding of safety, function, and shooting of firearms and has a fairly comprehensive understanding of gun laws/carry laws.

Gunnut 45/454
03-13-2012, 15:19
SC where you have to be a LEO to instruct a CCW class!!! :rofl: What BS - you don't like the way he teaches the class pull his cert. No way in hell should one go to jail for teaching a stupid CCW class.:faint: Then we all know SC is soooo freindly for gun ownership. :upeyes: Maybe they really need to just stop the requirement for training and just go Shall issue. Oh wait they are but you still have to take a stupid class to exersise your right to carry.:steamed:

Shadyscott69
03-13-2012, 18:22
SC where you have to be a LEO to instruct a CCW class!!! :rofl: What BS - you don't like the way he teaches the class pull his cert. No way in hell should one go to jail for teaching a stupid CCW class.:faint: Then we all know SC is soooo freindly for gun ownership. :upeyes: Maybe they really need to just stop the requirement for training and just go Shall issue. Oh wait they are but you still have to take a stupid class to exersise your right to carry.:steamed:


So, you really don't know anything about the CWP permit process or instructor requirements in SC. You could have just said so and not typed everything above. :wavey: