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TBO
03-08-2012, 04:15
High-calibre dining: Open-carry devotees taking a shot at a public gathering

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/20120308_High-calibre_dining__Open-carry_devotees_taking_a_shot_at_a_public_gathering.html

HandyMan Hugh
03-08-2012, 05:13
More power to 'em.

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 06:56
At least according to the tattoo parlor guy he and his ilk use the opportunity educate some people.

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 07:11
Must be a slow news day.

Rick68FL
03-08-2012, 07:31
People like that make me glad that OC is illegal in Florida.

"Look at me! I have a gun!!"

:upeyes:

macville
03-08-2012, 07:34
Best part is the COP saying that people aren't used to seeing people walk around with a gun on their hip? So does said cop not open carry when on duty?? Not trying to bash cops, but they need to just be quiet and enforce the law-not give their opinion about people exercising their rights.

RussP
03-08-2012, 07:54
The organizer of the event is none other than GT member ViperGTS19801.

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 07:57
Best part is the COP saying that people aren't used to seeing people walk around with a gun on their hip? So does said cop not open carry when on duty?? Not trying to bash cops, but they need to just be quiet and enforce the law-not give their opinion about people exercising their rights.

First problem I see with this is that the police really don't get that many "man with a gun" calls about uniformed officers, so the police may not see an issue with the police "open carrying."

The second problem with this that I see is the police sometimes, sometimes even often, have to respond to "man with a gun" calls regarding open carriers. I realize this has been previously discussed here perhaps ad nauseum. As said, open carryng is best when done when appropriate and with responsibility.

Jim S.
03-08-2012, 16:56
Did you guys read some of the comments from people?
Wow some of them are really sad.

Patchman
03-08-2012, 16:58
Best part is the COP saying that people aren't used to seeing people walk around with a gun on their hip? So does said cop not open carry when on duty?? Not trying to bash cops, but they need to just be quiet and enforce the law-not give their opinion about people exercising their rights.

1A for some but not others?

RussP
03-08-2012, 17:17
Best part is the COP saying that people aren't used to seeing people walk around with a gun on their hip? So does said cop not open carry when on duty?? Not trying to bash cops, but they need to just be quiet and enforce the law-not give their opinion about people exercising their rights.I do believe you've misinterpreted what the officer stated.Ridley Township Sgt. Charles Palo said that while openly carrying is within a citizen's rights, it can be alarming.

"This isn't Wyoming, this isn't Oklahoma," he said. "People aren't used to seeing people walking around with guns exposed."Is that his opinion, or is it a factual statement of conditions in Ridley Township?Ridley Township Sgt. Charles Palo said
Openly carrying is within a citizen's rights,


It can be alarming


This isn't Wyoming, this isn't Oklahoma


People aren't used to seeing people walking around with guns exposed.
What made you believe he was voicing his personal opinion?

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 18:23
Of course it's not Oklahoma, open carry is illegal there.

People like that make me glad that OC is illegal in Florida.

"Look at me! I have a gun!!"
That is not what open carry is about. You're making an assumption based on something you clearly do not know. It's like liberals saying you carry a gun because it makes you feel like a bad@$$. Does carrying your concealed gun making you feel like one? I know when I open carry I don't do it for the "Look at me! I have a gun!!".

I really don't see the big deal. In Michigan we have open carry dinners/lunches all the time. It's fun to get together with people that have a common interest. And the ones I've been to we don't just talk about open carry. Many other topics get discussed some firearm related some not. Also many man with a gun (MWAG) can be avoided by educating the public about open carry and it's legality. In Michigan we have made many strides educating the public about OC which has reduced the MWAG calls dramatically. Training dispatches who take MWAG calls also help. For example this is who a MWAG call could go:
Dispatch: 911 emergency what is your emergency?
Citizen: There's a man with a gun here at Walmart off Main St.
Dispatch: Is this man threatening anyone with the gun? What exactly is he doing?
Citizen: No it's in a holster on his hip. Right now he's getting Mac n' Cheese off the shelf and putting it in his cart.
Dispatch: The open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and we’ll send a car.

RussP
03-08-2012, 19:04
Training dispatches who take MWAG calls also help. For example this is who a MWAG call could go:
Dispatch: 911 emergency what is your emergency?
Citizen: There's a man with a gun here at Walmart off Main St.
Dispatch: Is this man threatening anyone with the gun? What exactly is he doing?
Citizen: No it's in a holster on his hip. Right now he's getting Mac n' Cheese off the shelf and putting it in his cart.
Dispatch: The open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and weíll send a car.Good, we can even name the Dispatch Training Program the "xmanhockey7 Dispatch Training Program." Along with the name, we'll assign the criminal and civil liabilities should they arise because your dispatch training program caused a dispatcher to not send a car to a MWAG call, which resulted in a person's injury or death. :thumbsup:

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 19:09
Good, we can even name the Dispatch Training Program the "xmanhockey7 Dispatch Training Program." Along with the name, we'll assign the criminal and civil liabilities should they arise because your dispatch training program caused a dispatcher to not send a car to a MWAG call, which resulted in a person's injury or death. :thumbsup:

Oh I can't take all the credit. Stole the idea from Michigan Open Carry and believe it or not (you probably won't because it's just that crazy) we have yet to have an open carrier injury or kill an innocent person.

http://miopencarry.org/?q=node/4

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 20:27
... we have yet to have an open carrier injury or kill an innocent person.

http://miopencarry.org/?q=node/4

As commendable as the experience in Michigan is, this one incident is probably enough to convince alot of PSAP managers that any report of a man with a gun will continue to be dispatched.
http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/134152458.html

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 20:48
As commendable as the experience in Michigan is, this one incident is probably enough to convince alot of PSAP managers that any report of a man with a gun will continue to be dispatched.
http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/134152458.html

I don't know whether this guy killed them for no reason or it was in SD but it seems to me this could happen to anyone who carries a gun.

macville
03-08-2012, 20:57
I do believe you've misinterpreted what the officer stated.Is that his opinion, or is it a factual statement of conditions in Ridley Township?Ridley Township Sgt. Charles Palo said
Openly carrying is within a citizen's rights,


It can be alarming


This isn't Wyoming, this isn't Oklahoma


People aren't used to seeing people walking around with guns exposed.
What made you believe he was voicing his personal opinion?

But what he said isn't true. Unless the cops of Ridley Township conceal carry, people ARE used to people open carrying. The issue of you having a badge or not does not matter as people are people. And just because MI isn't the "open west" doesn't mean that more people in Wyoming OC.

LEO's have helped along the idea that only they can be trusted with firearms. But those of us who actually read the stats know that a non-leo walking down the street with a OC'ed, holstered handgun is statically less likely to commit a crime against someone than a LEO (this is just based of stats mind you.)

I just feel that a LEO who is speaking out to the public (news conference, talking to a reporter, etc) should really only be saying that it's perfectly legal, and the only concern is when a firearm comes out of the holster or the carrier is doing something obviously illegal. The job is law enforcement, not law opinion.

Bruce M
03-08-2012, 21:18
But what he said isn't true. Unless the cops of Ridley Township conceal carry, people ARE used to people open carrying. The issue of you having a badge or not does not matter as people are people. And just because MI isn't the "open west" doesn't mean that more people in Wyoming OC.

LEO's have helped along the idea that only they can be trusted with firearms. But those of us who actually read the stats know that a non-leo walking down the street with a OC'ed, holstered handgun is statically less likely to commit a crime against someone than a LEO (this is just based of stats mind you.)

I just feel that a LEO who is speaking out to the public (news conference, talking to a reporter, etc) should really only be saying that it's perfectly legal, and the only concern is when a firearm comes out of the holster or the carrier is doing something obviously illegal. The job is law enforcement, not law opinion.


Except that the presence of uniformed police officers with holstered guns out and about in public do not generate all that many "man with a gun calls" but sometimes people not in uniform with a visible gun do generate 911 calls.

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 21:23
Except that the presence of uniformed police officers with holstered guns out and about in public do not generate all that many "man with a gun calls" but sometimes people not in uniform with a visible gun do generate 911 calls.

The more people learn that OC is legal the less 911 calls you will get. I've found many people who think it's illegal don't call the police because they realize they aren't in any danger.

AA#5
03-08-2012, 21:30
People like that make me glad that OC is illegal in Florida.

"Look at me! I have a gun!!"

:upeyes:

That's the whole idea - "Look at me!" The only result will be exactly what has already occured in some areas.....more laws against OC passed.

It's kinda amusing that more anti-gun laws is what OC'ers don't want.

AA#5
03-08-2012, 21:33
Best part is the COP saying that people aren't used to seeing people walk around with a gun on their hip? So does said cop not open carry when on duty?? Not trying to bash cops, but they need to just be quiet and enforce the law-not give their opinion about people exercising their rights.

Pretty desperate try at proving your point. People also are not nervous when they see a security guard OC'ing either because they know the gun is part of a uniform.

How many cops do you see OC'ing in plainclothes?

RussP
03-08-2012, 21:34
That's the whole idea - "Look at me!" The only result will be exactly what has already occured in some areas.....more laws against OC passed.

It's kinda amusing that more anti-gun laws is what OC'ers don't want.Could you please cite which states have passed laws against OC. I obviously need to update my files.

Thanks...

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 21:44
Could you please cite which states have passed laws against OC. I obviously need to update my files.

Thanks...

Cali is the only one I can think of. Granted those people do whatever they can to restrict firearms. IMHO that state would have banned OC no matter what. I think eventually they'll go after CC. Be nice if we didn't have so many concealed carriers against OC. If they choose not to OC that is their right but they shouldn't be so critical of those who choose to.

RussP
03-08-2012, 21:49
Oh I can't take all the credit. Stole the idea from Michigan Open Carry and believe it or not (you probably won't because it's just that crazy) we have yet to have an open carrier injury or kill an innocent person.

http://miopencarry.org/?q=node/4Oh, I know where you got it.

And I know that some things sound crazy, like Jesus Gonzales shooting two men, killing one, or the open carrier in Richmond Virginia who was killed with his own gun in the convenience store gun grab. Yep, neither of those scenarios had happened, before they happened. Then there was the pharmacist with a carry permit who murdered a police officer during a traffic stop, that had never happened before...

And it probably will not be the report of a person legally carrying that will be ignored. Someone hellbent on killing someone will be walking down the street. The wind might blow his/her shirt back exposing the gun. Someone calls 911. Your trained dispatcher will not send a car to investigate and someone is murdered. But, hey, that hasn't happened yet...

RussP
03-08-2012, 21:54
Cali is the only one I can think of. Granted those people do whatever they can to restrict firearms. IMHO that state would have banned OC no matter what. I think eventually they'll go after CC. Be nice if we didn't have so many concealed carriers against OC. If they choose not to OC that is their right but they shouldn't be so critical of those who choose to.But, the statement was "some areas", plural. What are the others?

How many people who conceal carry speak out critically about open carry? Quantify your "so many concealed carrier against OC."

Do you believe there are more concealed carriers speaking against OC, or more open carriers speaking out for OC?

Misty02
03-08-2012, 21:56
Pretty desperate try at proving your point. People also are not nervous when they see a security guard OC'ing either because they know the gun is part of a uniform.

How many cops do you see OC'ing in plainclothes?

Actually, I see them often. Most have the badge visible (depending on where you are standing in relation to them). Iíve seen other people OC and I assume they are police officers because OC is not allowed in FL (with few exceptions).

Two days ago we went to a Thai restaurant for lunch; there were 4 officers at the next table in plain clothes (long sleeve shirts tucked in and dress slacks) carrying open without a cover garment. In this case only one had a badge I could see. No one showed any sign of alarm and I did everything in my power to not stare attempting to figure out what each of them was carrying. :)

.

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 22:07
But, the statement was "some areas", plural. What are the others?

How many people who conceal carry speak out critically about open carry? Quantify your "so many concealed carrier against OC."

Do you believe there are more concealed carriers speaking against OC, or more open carriers speaking out for OC?

You're the moderator here, you've seen how many are critical of OC. Honestly I'm not sure if we have more CCers against OC or more OCers for OC. I do think it would be more productive if we could all get along and support the rights of GUN CARRIERS.

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 22:09
Oh, I know where you got it.

And I know that some things sound crazy, like Jesus Gonzales shooting two men, killing one, or the open carrier in Richmond Virginia who was killed with his own gun in the convenience store gun grab. Yep, neither of those scenarios had happened, before they happened. Then there was the pharmacist with a carry permit who murdered a police officer during a traffic stop, that had never happened before...

And it probably will not be the report of a person legally carrying that will be ignored. Someone hellbent on killing someone will be walking down the street. The wind might blow his/her shirt back exposing the gun. Someone calls 911. Your trained dispatcher will not send a car to investigate and someone is murdered. But, hey, that hasn't happened yet...

So what you're saying is we need to do something if we see someone carrying a gun? Why don't we do something about people carrying guns in general? Should we just not allow anyone to carry?

RussP
03-08-2012, 22:19
But what he said isn't true. Unless the cops of Ridley Township conceal carry, people ARE used to people open carrying. The issue of you having a badge or not does not matter as people are people. And just because MI isn't the "open west" doesn't mean that more people in Wyoming OC.Now you know he was talking about non-sworn citizens...nevermind.LEO's have helped along the idea that only they can be trusted with firearms. But those of us who actually read the stats know that a non-leo walking down the street with a OC'ed, holstered handgun is statically less likely to commit a crime against someone than a LEO (this is just based of stats mind you.)I read a lot of stats, but I don't believe I have seen that set of stats. Could you provide a link to them...Thanks.I just feel that a LEO who is speaking out to the public (news conference, talking to a reporter, etc) should really only be saying that it's perfectly legal, and the only concern is when a firearm comes out of the holster or the carrier is doing something obviously illegal. The job is law enforcement, not law opinion.I do believe he said right up front there that "Openly carrying is within a citizen's rights." That covers your "OC is legal" acceptable statement.

"The only concern is when a firearm comes out of the holster," I believe there may be other indicators which when associated with a holstered firearm might cause concern. Perhaps someone in law enforcement might mention a couple of them. Your raw statement, well, that's just your opinion.

And when you say the only concern is when "the carrier is doing something obviously illegal," well, that's obviously correct. The problem then is that the crime is being committed. Had the person's concern roused by the indicators I mentioned earlier triggered a 911 call, perhaps the crime might have been prevented.

The real world is not the nice simple little place people would like it to be. It is very complicated and sometimes not very nice.

RussP
03-08-2012, 22:22
So what you're saying is we need to do something if we see someone carrying a gun?What needs doing will depend on the totality of circumstances. Why don't we do something about people carrying guns in general? Should we just not allow anyone to carry?Is that the only other solution in your mind?

RussP
03-08-2012, 22:25
You're the moderator here, you've seen how many are critical of OC. Honestly I'm not sure if we have more CCers against OC or more OCers for OC. I do think it would be more productive if we could all get along and support the rights of GUN CARRIERS.So you don't know how many, that's okay.

Who are more vocal, OCers or concealed carriers?

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 22:54
So you don't know how many, that's okay.

Who are more vocal, OCers or concealed carriers?

More vocal about what? Gun rights? I find that OCers tend to be more concerned about gun rights and where people can carry. Who's more vocal about people being allowed to OC? Again that'd be OCers. The group that I've seen lobbying the most to have the concealed pistol free zones eliminated in Michigan is Michigan Open Carry. They are also the group that seems to care the most about when localities try to violate state preemption. Not that other groups don't do anything but from what I can tell MOC put much more into it. Even though they are an open carry group they stand up for everyone's right to OC or CC because they think it should be the person's choice.

xmanhockey7
03-08-2012, 22:56
Is that the only other solution in your mind?

idk I was asking you.

Warp
03-08-2012, 23:06
Who are more vocal, OCers or concealed carriers?

Generally speaking it is my experience that the most vocal is generally the person or group that is attempting to limit the actions/freedoms of another person or group.

Regarding "open carriers" and "concealed carriers" the biggest difference I notice is that only one of these groups has a lot of members that attack and insult the other group, believing that their way is the only way and all others should do exactly as they do.

Misty02
03-08-2012, 23:07
You're the moderator here, you've seen how many are critical of OC. Honestly I'm not sure if we have more CCers against OC or more OCers for OC. I do think it would be more productive if we could all get along and support the rights of GUN CARRIERS.

Perhaps it may help a little if you got the opinion of someone that has never OC’ed and likely never will. There are certain (although few) times that OC is legal in Florida and there are many in this state that do so for the purpose of helping educate the general public and hopefully desensitize them about firearms.

I know my opinion on this will not even be worth the usual .02 cents, but here it goes anyway:

For the most part I approve of the efforts being carried by those working toward getting OC approved in Florida and that OC for the reasons stated above. They have a purpose, they are polite, informative and helpful not just to other gun owners but to others in general. Nonetheless, there is always a sore thumb in every group that becomes more visible for all the wrong reasons. Those are the cases where I may post (here or elsewhere) a less than favorable opinion of a particular OC’er.

I support the right of those that OC and wish them to have the ability to continue doing so. However, not everything that is legal is right (just like not everything that is illegal is wrong). Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxNigB79tS0 will rub me the wrong way. What he’s doing is perfectly legal in Florida.

I can’t offer an open and blanket support of everyone that OC without taking in consideration the reasons they’re doing it for, I’m sorry. Personal comfort, education, because they wish to do so and it’s legal (without the negative baggage) are all acceptable in my book. Heck, I’ll even be supportive of the Rosa Parks of OC that may risk their personal freedom for the sake of helping others, as long as it is done with the right attitude and behavior (although I’m not likely to help pay their legal bills). OC for the purpose of antagonizing or rubbing it on the face of others (whether it be law enforcement or the general public) and I’ll offer 0 support.

TDC20
03-08-2012, 23:45
I'm surprised no one has commented on the horrific "journalism" in the original article. This is why I don't subscribe to newspapers any more or watch any news reporters on TV. I know the reporter was just trying to be cheeky, or snarky, whatever, in expressing her contempt for gun owners, and especially OC'ers. I really found Ms. Farr's last couple of lines especially newsworthy, where she went to Fiorino's forum and found a commenter who called the restaurant "Crappleby's" Hooray for crappy journalism, Ms. Farr! You can fling dung with the best of them! You deserve a Pulitzer for that fine piece! :upeyes:

xmanhockey7
03-09-2012, 00:27
Perhaps it may help a little if you got the opinion of someone that has never OCíed and likely never will. There are certain (although few) times that OC is legal in Florida and there are many in this state that do so for the purpose of helping educate the general public and hopefully desensitize them about firearms.

I know my opinion on this will not even be worth the usual .02 cents, but here it goes anyway:

For the most part I approve of the efforts being carried by those working toward getting OC approved in Florida and that OC for the reasons stated above. They have a purpose, they are polite, informative and helpful not just to other gun owners but to others in general. Nonetheless, there is always a sore thumb in every group that becomes more visible for all the wrong reasons. Those are the cases where I may post (here or elsewhere) a less than favorable opinion of a particular OCíer.

I support the right of those that OC and wish them to have the ability to continue doing so. However, not everything that is legal is right (just like not everything that is illegal is wrong). Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxNigB79tS0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxNigB79tS0) will rub me the wrong way. What heís doing is perfectly legal in Florida.

I canít offer an open and blanket support of everyone that OC without taking in consideration the reasons theyíre doing it for, Iím sorry. Personal comfort, education, because they wish to do so and itís legal (without the negative baggage) are all acceptable in my book. Heck, Iíll even be supportive of the Rosa Parks of OC that may risk their personal freedom for the sake of helping others, as long as it is done with the right attitude and behavior (although Iím not likely to help pay their legal bills). OC for the purpose of antagonizing or rubbing it on the face of others (whether it be law enforcement or the general public) and Iíll offer 0 support.


I wish there were more like you.

Misty02
03-09-2012, 00:30
I wish there were more like you.

There are many, theyíre just not as vocal. :)

.

RussP
03-09-2012, 06:01
idk I was asking you.And I was asking if that is the only solution, the only choice. Are there alternatives?

The answer to your question is "Not without rewriting the 2nd Amendment."

RussP
03-09-2012, 06:03
I'm surprised no one has commented on the horrific "journalism" in the original article. This is why I don't subscribe to newspapers any more or watch any news reporters on TV. I know the reporter was just trying to be cheeky, or snarky, whatever, in expressing her contempt for gun owners, and especially OC'ers. I really found Ms. Farr's last couple of lines especially newsworthy, where she went to Fiorino's forum and found a commenter who called the restaurant "Crappleby's" Hooray for crappy journalism, Ms. Farr! You can fling dung with the best of them! You deserve a Pulitzer for that fine piece! :upeyes:And have you written to her editor about her editorializing? The risk there is it could be taken as a compliment.:cool:

Bruce M
03-09-2012, 07:33
So what you're saying is we need to do something if we see someone carrying a gun? Why don't we do something about people carrying guns in general? Should we just not allow anyone to carry?


I don't think the call should be based on a gun but rather on anything or anyone that seems suspicious to the caller. As near as I can tell, various places seem to try to encourage that as what seems suspicious to one may not be to another, but it probably is best to error on the side of caution.
On a somewhat different note, I wonder if any group has tried and had any success with some sort of a public service announcement regarding open carry - seems to me this might be a better way reach out to alot of people quickly, as opposed to just some people in a restaurant.

xmanhockey7
03-09-2012, 08:33
I don't think the call should be based on a gun but rather on anything or anyone that seems suspicious to the caller. As near as I can tell, various places seem to try to encourage that as what seems suspicious to one may not be to another, but it probably is best to error on the side of caution.
On a somewhat different note, I wonder if any group has tried and had any success with some sort of a public service announcement regarding open carry - seems to me this might be a better way reach out to alot of people quickly, as opposed to just some people in a restaurant.

Michigan Open Carry (MOC) has trifolds regarding the legalities of OC which many OCers carry with them should someone be curious. They also conduct OC seminars to help spread the word about OC. It seems many CPL instructors are learning that OC is legal in Michigan and that with a CPL you can openly carry into places concealed carry is illegal. We still have some that say OC is illegal and if you're carry concealed and someone sees your gun it's brandishing but from what I can tell many people who take CPL classes are learning of the legality.

macville
03-09-2012, 08:37
Now you know he was talking about non-sworn citizens...nevermind.I read a lot of stats, but I don't believe I have seen that set of stats. Could you provide a link to them...

This is what I was referring to (you'll have to scroll down some) http://gunowners.org/vpc10122011.htm


Thanks.I do believe he said right up front there that "Openly carrying is within a citizen's rights." That covers your "OC is legal" acceptable statement.

"The only concern is when a firearm comes out of the holster," I believe there may be other indicators which when associated with a holstered firearm might cause concern. Perhaps someone in law enforcement might mention a couple of them. Your raw statement, well, that's just your opinion.

And when you say the only concern is when "the carrier is doing something obviously illegal," well, that's obviously correct. The problem then is that the crime is being committed. Had the person's concern roused by the indicators I mentioned earlier triggered a 911 call, perhaps the crime might have been prevented.

The real world is not the nice simple little place people would like it to be. It is very complicated and sometimes not very nice.

Yes, he may have said it's their rights, but then went on to back up the emotional argument against open carry by implying that Wyoming or Oklahoma (by which he just assumed that OK allows OC) is different than Ridley. What he did was backhanded criticism. LEO's should never tell anyone that lawful activity can/could be alarming...because it isn't! It should have been a great educational moment but instead it went the opposite direction.

I said the "other obviously illegal things" because it covers pretty much everything else. I would love for you to explain what some of those indicators might be. Most people's indicator is simply that the person has a OC'ed firearm. Not, the person is shouting he's going to kill someone or something else like that (which that is already illegal so a crime is already being committed.)

macville
03-09-2012, 08:43
Personal comfort, education, because they wish to do so and itís legal (without the negative baggage) are all acceptable in my book.

How is this not education? Education isn't always an active, someone speaking to someone else event. Notice that in the video people looked but kept on walking..which I think says something good about many americans.

Bruce M
03-09-2012, 09:03
... LEO's should never tell anyone that lawful activity can/could be alarming...because it isn't! ....)

That is your opinion. Obviously, only an opinion that has no base in an officers job description and expectations by the administrations and governments that employ them. My suspicion is that far more often than you would want to know, officers regularly suggest to people that they alter some behavior that while legal, may well not be appropriate in a situation.

SpringerTGO
03-09-2012, 10:26
No doubt I'll get beat up over this, but I really don't see the point in the OC meet at the restaurant. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO OC, but still need to bring attention to yourselves. So what are you expecting? One or 2 people saying, "gee, that's neat, I didn't know OC is legal"? More realistically you will alienate a LOT more people.
If OC was not legal, I can understand public gatherings, petitions, etc. to make it legal. We were getting OC legal here in Utah, but because of a lot of bad press, it's been tabled.
You have the right to OC in Philly, but bringing that kind of attention to yourselves can only make it harder to keep that right.

Warp
03-09-2012, 10:58
No doubt I'll get beat up over this, but I really don't see the point in the OC meet at the restaurant. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO OC, but still need to bring attention to yourselves. So what are you expecting? One or 2 people saying, "gee, that's neat, I didn't know OC is legal"? More realistically you will alienate a LOT more people.
If OC was not legal, I can understand public gatherings, petitions, etc. to make it legal. We were getting OC legal here in Utah, but because of a lot of bad press, it's been tabled.
You have the right to OC in Philly, but bringing that kind of attention to yourselves can only make it harder to keep that right.

I think that bringing attention to the fact that it is in fact legal and people do in fact do it might make it easier to keep that right. When done tastefully/appropriately/within reason. Obviously some of the the extreme OC activists may not fall in this category.

SpringerTGO
03-09-2012, 11:47
I think that bringing attention to the fact that it is in fact legal and people do in fact do it might make it easier to keep that right. When done tastefully/appropriately/within reason. Obviously some of the the extreme OC activists may not fall in this category.

Then OC. Don't make it an issue. People will see it.
I am sure there are lots of laws people don't know about.

RussP
03-09-2012, 12:42
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This is what I was referring to (you'll have to scroll down some) http://gunowners.org/vpc10122011.htmOkay, here are the two paragraphs you sent me to:
Permit holders more law-abiding than average population -- even more so than cops!

The VPC wants to focus on the few bad apples in the concealed carry community and suggest that citizens can’t be trusted to carry firearms. But using their own logic, they should be arguing for cop disarmament, because they break the law far more often.

As compared to concealed carry permit holders, the average American is almost 8 times more likely to be convicted of crimes and over 40 times more likely to be convicted of burglary -- and police officers are almost 800 times more likely to violate the law.1212 - Crime statistics related to concealed carry permit holders are difficult to come by, as every state does not publish detailed figures relating to their permit holders. Some (like Texas) do provide these statistics. Interestingly, a study of concealed carry in Texas over a four year period (2002-2005), found that non concealed carry permit holders are 7.89 times more likely to be convicted of crimes than permit holders -- and 40.58 times as likely to be convicted of burglary. [See Tables 1 and 3 in Howard Nemerov, “Concealed Handguns: Danger or Asset to Texas?” at http://www.prattontexas.com/documents/Texas%20CHL%20Study.pdf.] Moreover, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 4.72% of all officers (state and local) were found to have committed police abuse in 2002. ” (published 2006) at http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ccpuf.pdf.] Comparing the BJS figures to the Texas data -- showing that just over six-thousandths of one percent (.0062%) of permit holders were convicted of crimes in 2002 -- one can make some interesting correlations. [B]While somewhat different, it is interesting to note that police reviewing authorities found that officers had committed crimes at 761 times the rate that the Texas study found for convictions of concealed carry holders for the same criminal acts. [Compare BJS, “Citizen Complaints” to Nemerov, “Concealed Handguns.”]Maybe it's right there in front of me, but I cannot find numbers to support the part in bold in the two studies. Can you point them out, please.

Also, one study covers all convictions of concealed carriers and the other studies citizen complaints of police use of force resulting in departmental disciplinary actions, not trial convictions.

If you can just point me to those numbers, I'll really appreciate it.

AA#5
03-09-2012, 13:04
Actually, I see them often. Most have the badge visible (depending on where you are standing in relation to them). Iíve seen other people OC and I assume they are police officers because OC is not allowed in FL (with few exceptions).

Two days ago we went to a Thai restaurant for lunch; there were 4 officers at the next table in plain clothes (long sleeve shirts tucked in and dress slacks) carrying open without a cover garment. In this case only one had a badge I could see. No one showed any sign of alarm and I did everything in my power to not stare attempting to figure out what each of them was carrying. :)

.

Right. And an LEO who OC's with a visible badge is saying, "Don't be alarmed; I'm a cop." Not exactly typical OC.

RussP
03-09-2012, 13:54
I do believe he said right up front there that "Openly carrying is within a citizen's rights." That covers your "OC is legal" acceptable statement.

"The only concern is when a firearm comes out of the holster," I believe there may be other indicators which when associated with a holstered firearm might cause concern. Perhaps someone in law enforcement might mention a couple of them. Your raw statement, well, that's just your opinion.

And when you say the only concern is when "the carrier is doing something obviously illegal," well, that's obviously correct. The problem then is that the crime is being committed. Had the person's concern roused by the indicators I mentioned earlier triggered a 911 call, perhaps the crime might have been prevented.

The real world is not the nice simple little place people would like it to be. It is very complicated and sometimes not very nice.Yes, he may have said it's their rights,No, he actually said, or it was reported he actually said, "Openly carrying is within a citizen's rights." We'll get back to the "it was reported" in a bit.but then went on to back up the emotional argument against open carry by implying that Wyoming or Oklahoma (by which he just assumed that OK allows OC) is different than Ridley.So, a police Sgt. in Ridley Park, PA, you expect him to know Oklahoma carry laws? He at least knows PA law. You live in Tennessee. Are attitudes about open carry in Tennessee different than in PA? Other than kwikrnu, are there more negative open carry incidents in your state or in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

Would you feel better if he'd said Wyoming or Virginia? No, Virginia open carry history is closer to that of PA. Pennsylvania is where we were only a few years ago. How about Wyoming and Montana? The contrast of suburban, tree lined streets of Ridley Park to the wide open spaces of WY and MT is my perception of what his comment meant.

Here is where "it was reported" comes back in. Do you know what questions the reporter asked before Sgt. Palo made his statement? Do you know what else he said that wasn't "reported?" Did Stephanie Farr only submit what met her obvious agenda? Think about it. What he did was backhanded criticism. LEO's should never tell anyone that lawful activity can/could be alarming...because it isn't! It should have been a great educational moment but instead it went the opposite direction.Are you familiar with the concept of the Totality of Circumstances? Look it up.

Also, this is from my sigline: "--even a boot knows the totality of the circumstances is what matters and that non-criminal acts can be red flags."I said the "other obviously illegal things" because it covers pretty much everything else. I would love for you to explain what some of those indicators might be. Most people's indicator is simply that the person has a OC'ed firearm. Not, the person is shouting he's going to kill someone or something else like that (which that is already illegal so a crime is already being committed.)Yes, to a lot of people, the firearm is what gets things started. Then you just ask the who, what, when, where, and how questions.

Gunnut 45/454
03-09-2012, 14:06
Good deal more folks need to OC . Sounds like all went well with no OMG he has a gun calls. Public education complete.:supergrin:

Warp
03-09-2012, 15:11
Then OC. Don't make it an issue. People will see it.
I am sure there are lots of laws people don't know about.

Way ahead of you. ;)

Brian Lee
03-09-2012, 18:12
I'll bet anyone 50 bucks through the mail that nobody tries to rob that place while the OC guys are there.

dkf
03-09-2012, 19:13
Generally speaking it is my experience that the most vocal is generally the person or group that is attempting to limit the actions/freedoms of another person or group.

Regarding "open carriers" and "concealed carriers" the biggest difference I notice is that only one of these groups has a lot of members that attack and insult the other group, believing that their way is the only way and all others should do exactly as they do.

I noticed the same thing.

G30Mike
03-09-2012, 19:15
I'll bet anyone 50 bucks through the mail that nobody tries to rob that place while the OC guys are there.

Hmmm....wonder if that means OC does have a deterrence factor after all?
:D

xmanhockey7
03-09-2012, 19:23
No doubt I'll get beat up over this, but I really don't see the point in the OC meet at the restaurant. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO OC, but still need to bring attention to yourselves. So what are you expecting? One or 2 people saying, "gee, that's neat, I didn't know OC is legal"? More realistically you will alienate a LOT more people.
If OC was not legal, I can understand public gatherings, petitions, etc. to make it legal. We were getting OC legal here in Utah, but because of a lot of bad press, it's been tabled.
You have the right to OC in Philly, but bringing that kind of attention to yourselves can only make it harder to keep that right.

It's not about people showing up to show off their guns (it's not at all what OC is about). It's people with a common interest to meet up for some food and talk about stuff. Whether it be OC, firearms in general, how their kids are doing, etc. Also OC is legal in Utah idk what you are talking about.

Misty02
03-09-2012, 20:09
How is this not education? Education isn't always an active, someone speaking to someone else event. Notice that in the video people looked but kept on walking..which I think says something good about many americans.

Did you at any time see the ďeducatorĒ turn and smile politely to those passing by to appease any apprehension they may have? Did he appear approachable? Whatever the intention was, educating and helping others understand was so low in his agenda (if it was there at all) that it went completely unnoticed by me.

You are correct though, people looked and kept walking. By the narration of the video it appears he wasnít at the receiving end of any MWG calls. Overall, for me, the video left a more favorable impression of the passersby than it did of the ďeducatorĒ.

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