What is the State of the Dead [Archive] - Glock Talk

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FCoulter
03-08-2012, 05:42
There seems to be much confusion around the world about what happens to us when we die.

Here is a great sermon on video explaining the State of the Dead according to scripture. Enjoy.

http://www.cbcg.org/Video/20110820WhatStateDead.htm

Here is the text of the same sermon if you would rather read it or just use it to follow along with the video.

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/Transcripts/What_is_the_State_of_the_Dead_082011.pdf

ArtificialGrape
03-08-2012, 07:35
New Jersey?

:cool:

Geko45
03-08-2012, 09:43
a state of decomposition

fgutie35
03-08-2012, 09:57
So far, all we have is testimony of those who have been medically pronounced dead and have come back to life, and actually remember their experience. Other people will be Saints, Prophets, Sears and Visionaries, who have been given knowledge or have been taken to witness the mystery of the spiritual world.

The other state, is like AG said; New Jersey.:rofl:

Roering
03-08-2012, 10:16
New Jersey?

:cool:

Thread over. Someone cut AG a check.

kjm1016
03-08-2012, 10:33
In my case, Texas.

FCoulter
03-08-2012, 10:49
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

Roering
03-08-2012, 10:54
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

That would depend upon whose advice he listens to.

Matthew 15:14
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Geko45
03-08-2012, 11:56
New Jersey?

:cool:

I was gonna say Florida, but then realized that is the State of the Almost Dead.

:whistling:

Guss
03-08-2012, 11:59
I've seen lots of attempted proofs of God, but I don't seem to remember any proofs of an immortal soul.

Sarge1400
03-08-2012, 12:00
a state of decomposition

New Jersey?

:cool:

Same thing.

FCoulter
03-08-2012, 12:06
That would depend upon whose advice he listens to.

Matthew 15:14
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

So I take it you actually watched the video or read the transcripts before making a claim like that?

Or

Was you just trolling as usual?

Tilley
03-08-2012, 12:21
There seems to be much confusion around the world about what happens to us when we die.
Sorry FC, but he started bagging on us Catholics within the first three minutes of the video. Even Animal Mother waits at least 10 minutes before he starts in...

1. You die.

2. The body returns to dust.

3. You return to God.

4. You are judged.

5. Saved one's go to Paradise with the Lord.
a). Glorified body when Christ returns to Earth.

6. Unsaved one's to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.


(Note: If there is a Rapture, you will know it when you login to GT Religious Issues and only AG, AM, and Geko45 are the only one's posting). :tongueout:

Guss
03-08-2012, 12:31
State of dead? You go back to being what you were before you were born - nonexistent.

Roering
03-08-2012, 12:34
So I take it you actually watched the video or read the transcripts before making a claim like that?

Or

Was you just trolling as usual?

I've heard enough of Fred's "sermons" to know a nutcase when I hear one. His rants involving the New World Order, Illuminati, and many other conspiracy theories should send any somewhat coherent thinking human running. Nevertheless there are many who sadly are drawn to such ramblings and have joined his cult. When he dies his "church" will disperse and be forgotten as another nutter will pop up somewhere else.


As for me, I'll take the teachings of Christ and those whom He commissioned within the Church He established. We've been around nearly 2,000 years and have seen our share of guys like this come and go. :wavey:

Roering
03-08-2012, 12:36
Sorry FC, but he started bagging on us Catholics within the first three minutes of the video.

There is nothing an imposter hates worse than the real article.

Vic Hays
03-08-2012, 12:36
1. You die.

2. The body returns to dust.

3. You return to God.

4. You are judged.

5. Saved one's go to Paradise with the Lord.
a). Glorified body when Christ returns to Earth.

6. Unsaved one's to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.



1. You really die

2. the body turns to dust

3. The breath of life returns to God

4. You are raised in one of two resurrections

5. Saved ones inhabit the Kingdom of God

6. Unsaved ones go to the lake of fire where they are destroyed.

There is a resurrection to life and another resurrection to judgment. Jesus said so. They are in the graves until then. Jesus said so.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
5:29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Altaris
03-08-2012, 12:40
1. You die.
2. The body returns to dust.

3. You return to God.
4. You are judged.
5. Saved one's go to Paradise with the Lord.
a). Glorified body when Christ returns to Earth.
6. Unsaved one's to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.


I agree with you on 2 out of the 6.

FCoulter
03-08-2012, 12:41
Sorry FC, but he started bagging on us Catholics within the first three minutes of the video. Even Animal Mother waits at least 10 minutes before he starts in...


Really,are you that thin skinned? actually in the first 3 mins. protestants are mentioned more than catholics.

FCoulter
03-08-2012, 12:43
I've heard enough of Fred's "sermons" to know a nutcase when I hear one. His rants involving the New World Order, Illuminati, and many other conspiracy theories should send any somewhat coherent thinking human running. Nevertheless there are many who sadly are drawn to such ramblings and have joined his cult. When he dies his "church" will disperse and be forgotten as another nutter will pop up somewhere else.


As for me, I'll take the teachings of Christ and those whom He commissioned within the Church He established. We've been around nearly 2,000 years and have seen our share of guys like this come and go. :wavey:

Guess I shouldn't have referred to as a troll huh?

Very catholic like your response. I'll just leave it at that.

Geko45
03-08-2012, 12:58
Can't I just go to Magaritaville when I die?

:cool:

Altaris
03-08-2012, 13:08
Can't I just go to Magaritaville when I die?

:cool:

If you worship my god I can guarantee you a stay in Margarita-ville for all eternity. You will also be greeted by 72 drunken non-virgins.

Schabesbert
03-08-2012, 13:22
Very catholic like your response. I'll just leave it at that.
It's nice to see you compliment someone for a change. :whistling:

Geko45
03-08-2012, 13:31
If you worship my god I can guarantee you a stay in Margarita-ville for all eternity. You will also be greeted by 72 drunken non-virgins.

Excellent! They will have experience... Will there be cajun martinis and afternoon golf?

rgregoryb
03-08-2012, 13:58
New Jersey?

:cool:

Exactly!!!!!:rofl:

WS6
03-08-2012, 14:29
There seems to be much confusion around the world about what happens to us when we die.

Here is a great sermon on video explaining the State of the Dead according to scripture. Enjoy.

http://www.cbcg.org/Video/20110820WhatStateDead.htm

Here is the text of the same sermon if you would rather read it or just use it to follow along with the video.

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/Transcripts/What_is_the_State_of_the_Dead_082011.pdf

What would induce a Catholic to read anything beyond this tripe in the 4th paragraph?

Catholics are satisfied to put some in hell and the rest in purgatory, so all the relatives can pay for masses to try and get them out of purgatory. Purgatory is kind of like a halfway house. You’re neither-nor. You may have been a Catholic but you only came on Christmas and Easter, you didn’t come the rest of the time, so you go to purgatory. And all your relatives are going to try and pray you out. Now, if you have some good mafia friends with a lot of money, you can get a lot of masses so it can get you out. And all of that will be counted as contributions to the local priest.

FCoulter
03-08-2012, 14:31
It's nice to see you compliment someone for a change. :whistling:

Oh really? this comming from without a doubt the most arrogant,rude,so-called christian on this forum.

Try a loving approach,if nothing else you will feel better inside.

:wow:

FCoulter
03-08-2012, 14:33
What would induce a Catholic to read anything beyond this tripe in the 4th paragraph?

So is any of it not true?

I am sorry if the catholics or protestants don't like it. It is here for those that do want it and whom God is calling.

Schabesbert
03-08-2012, 14:38
Oh really? this comming from without a doubt the most arrogant,rude,so-called christian on this forum.
Thanks! I love you, too!
:hugs:

Try a loving approach,if nothing else you will feel better inside.
Kinda like the post in which you just called me arrogant and rude? :upeyes:

What you consider rude could actually be considered as truthful.

Schabesbert
03-08-2012, 14:44
So is any of it not true?


Absolutely!

Oh, and it's also a bearing of false witness.

But, hey, Christ predicted it:
Mt 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Lu 21:17 you will be hated by all for my name's sake.

see also Mt 24:9

St. John, too, echoing Our Lord's beliefs, warned us:
1Jo 3:13 Do not wonder, brethren, that the world hates you.

But, we thank you for your hatred:
Lu 6:22 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man!

You are a blessing to us!!! :hugs:

Roering
03-08-2012, 14:45
So is any of it not true?

Yep.



I am sorry if the Catholics or protestants don't like it. It is here for those that do want it and whom God is calling.

I'm sure there are people being called to this cult, but it's not God doing the calling.

I'm shaking the dust off my sandals from this.

Tilley
03-08-2012, 14:45
Oh really? this comming from without a doubt the most arrogant,rude,so-called christian on this forum.

:wow:

Now that's garbage...what about me? :dunno:

Tilley
03-08-2012, 14:48
I am sorry if the catholics or protestants don't like it. It is here for those that do want it and whom God is calling.

I am sorry if the catholics or protestants don't like it. It is here for those that do want it and whom Benny Hinn is calling.
Fixed it for ya.:wavey:

WS6
03-08-2012, 14:48
So is any of it not true?

It is a smart-ass falsehood.

Vic Hays
03-08-2012, 20:40
Quite simply the dead are dead until one of the resurrections.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

WS6
03-09-2012, 03:50
Quite simply the dead are dead until one of the resurrections.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

These folks seem to be more than just asleep in the ground:

Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the wizards out of the land.

The Philistines assembled, and came and encamped at Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilbo'a. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a medium at Endor."

So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you." The woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?" But Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."

When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul." The king said to her, "Have no fear; what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth." He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.

Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."

And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am'alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."

Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night. [RSV, 1 Samuel 28:3-20]


When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. [RSV, Revelation 6:9-11]

Vic Hays
03-09-2012, 09:11
These folks seem to be more than just asleep in the ground:

Are you saying that a witch was able to call Samuel down from heaven or up from hell to discourage Saul?

I think it was more likely a trick of satan since God was not communicating with Saul. If God was not communicating with Saul who do you suppose was?

Revelation is written in symbolic language. The saints are depicted as being under the altar and asking for vengeance. This is not a likely request of the saints, but a response from God for their being martyred.

The blood of Abel cried out from the ground also when he had been slain by Cain. Do you suppose Abel's blood actually cried out?

WS6
03-09-2012, 12:16
Are you saying that a witch was able to call Samuel down from heaven or up from hell to discourage Saul?

I didn't say either. I quoted Scripture:

Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."

Continuing ...

I think it was more likely a trick of satan since God was not communicating with Saul. If God was not communicating with Saul who do you suppose was?

Uh ... how about Samuel?

Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Continuing ...

Revelation is written in symbolic language. The saints are depicted as being under the altar and asking for vengeance. This is not a likely request of the saints

Why not? What is wrong with justice?

but a response from God for their being martyred.

Don't wrest Scripture.

The blood of Abel cried out from the ground also when he had been slain by Cain.

What does an incident occurring in the book of Genesis have to do with saints in Heaven mentioned in the book of Revelation?

Do you suppose Abel's blood actually cried out?

Ask God; He made the statement:

And the LORD said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. [RSV, Genesis 4:10]

Vic Hays
03-09-2012, 12:48
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

WS6
03-10-2012, 16:39
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Your point is not self-evident.

Kingarthurhk
03-10-2012, 16:43
Your point is not self-evident.

One of the first lies told on this earth by Satan, that Eve would not die. Clearly, she is dead.

Tilley
03-11-2012, 21:27
One of the first lies told on this earth by Satan, that Eve would not die. Clearly, she is dead.

If she is dead, then she went to hell?

She died, but who knows what happened to her or where she is today. Surely she did not commit the "unforgivable sin."

Animal Mother
03-11-2012, 21:44
One of the first lies told on this earth by Satan, that Eve would not die. Clearly, she is dead.If that's the case, then God lied to Adam and Eve too, why do you forgive Him and not the serpent?

FCoulter
03-12-2012, 07:30
If she is dead, then she went to hell?

She died, but who knows what happened to her or where she is today. Surely she did not commit the "unforgivable sin."

Have you not read the Bible? It is clear where Eve is!

Eve is in hell. (Sheol/Hades) is the Hebrew/Greek words for the grave. This is where Eve and everyone since her are, and awaiting the return of Christ, and the resurrections.

FCoulter
03-12-2012, 07:32
If that's the case, then God lied to Adam and Eve too, why do you forgive Him and not the serpent?


Oh Really?

How did God lie?

He was very clear if Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they would surely die, guess what? They did...

GreenDrake
03-12-2012, 07:44
Can't I just go to Magaritaville when I die?

:cool:

I am SO there.

Schabesbert
03-12-2012, 08:12
(Sheol/Hades) is the Hebrew/Greek words for the grave.
Etymologically, yes. But we shouldn't commit the etymological fallacy.

The meaning that Jews have, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol), for Sheol is "the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated."

Roering
03-12-2012, 11:28
Have you not read the Bible? It is clear where Eve is!

Eve is in hell. (Sheol/Hades) is the Hebrew/Greek words for the grave. This is where Eve and everyone since her are, and awaiting the return of Christ, and the resurrections.

Weren't Moses & Elijah present with Christ on the hilltop during his transfiguration?

Could have sworn they were mentioned as being there.

Kingarthurhk
03-12-2012, 11:52
Weren't Moses & Elijah present with Christ on the hilltop during his transfiguration?

Could have sworn they were mentioned as being there.

There are three people in the whole of scripture who have been documented to have been translated into heaven.

Genesis 5:21-24, "<sup>21</sup> When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. <sup id="en-NIV1984-128" class="versenum">22</sup> And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. <sup id="en-NIV1984-129" class="versenum">23</sup> Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. <sup id="en-NIV1984-130" class="versenum">24</sup> Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

Jude 1:9, " But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

2 Kings 2:11-12, "<sup>11</sup> As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. <sup id="en-NIV-9564" class="versenum">12</sup> Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two."

That is why you see this:

Matthew 17:1-13, " After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. <sup id="en-NIV-23703" class="versenum">2</sup> There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. <sup id="en-NIV-23704" class="versenum">3</sup> Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

<sup id="en-NIV-23705" class="versenum">4</sup> Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
<sup id="en-NIV-23706" class="versenum">5</sup> While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
<sup id="en-NIV-23707" class="versenum">6</sup> When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. <sup id="en-NIV-23708" class="versenum">7</sup> But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” <sup id="en-NIV-23709" class="versenum">8</sup> When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
<sup id="en-NIV-23710" class="versenum">9</sup> As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
<sup id="en-NIV-23711" class="versenum">10</sup> The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” <sup id="en-NIV-23712" class="versenum">11</sup> Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. <sup id="en-NIV-23713" class="versenum">12</sup> But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” <sup id="en-NIV-23714" class="versenum">13</sup> Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."

Roering
03-12-2012, 12:10
There are three people in the whole of scripture who have been documented to have been translated into heaven.

And would you agree that nowhere in scripture does it limit those in heaven to just the three?

Kingarthurhk
03-12-2012, 12:15
And would you agree that nowhere in scripture does it limit those in heaven to just the three?

If there were absolutely no limitation then there would be no need for a resurrection, that is plainly spoke of in scripture. You asked about a specific event, the Transfiguration, and I explained to you in scripture how these people came to be on the mount of Transfiguration with Jesus and the disciples.

Schabesbert
03-12-2012, 12:36
There are three people in the whole of scripture who have been documented to have been translated into heaven.


Jude 1:9, " But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Where does this say that Moses was translated into heaven? You must've missed that part in your quotation.

This was obviously Moses' dead body, since scripture plainly says that Moses died.

Tilley
03-12-2012, 12:42
Eve is in hell. (Sheol/Hades) is the Hebrew/Greek words for the grave. This is where Eve and everyone since her are, and awaiting the return of Christ, and the resurrections.
So in your bible does Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he will be with him today in hell?

Oh, that's right...paradise. Paul longed to shed his body to be with the Lord...not in suspended animation until the second coming.

You believe what you want. I don't know you, but it is obvious that you approach atheists and Christians from a defensive posture.

My relationship is not with anyone else but God. You interpret things however you wants, but what does the Holy Spirit whisper to your heart say?

Tilley
03-12-2012, 12:48
...there would be no need for a resurrection...

OF THE BODY...RESURRECTION OF THE NEW AND HEAVENLY BODY!

Sorry, I hate yelling.

You are a spiritual being, with or without your body. You existence is not dependent on a body. Does God the Father have a physical body? Does the Holy Spirit have a physical body?

Tilley
03-12-2012, 12:49
And would you agree that nowhere in scripture does it limit those in heaven to just the three?

You are truly the wisest little squirrel I know.

I agree.

Schabesbert
03-12-2012, 12:53
So in your bible does Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he will be with him today in hell?

Oh, that's right...paradise. Paul longed to shed his body to be with the Lord...not in suspended animation until the second coming.

You believe what you want. I don't know you, but it is obvious that you approach atheists and Christians from a defensive posture.

My relationship is not with anyone else but God. You interpret things however you wants, but what does the Holy Spirit whisper to your heart say?
Don't forget that St. Peter also told us that Christ went to preach to the spirits, even from Noah's day:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Not only that, but we are surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses":
Heb 11:39 And all these [OT Saints], though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
(RSV)

jknight8907
03-12-2012, 12:59
John 5:28 does not support the idea that at death, the person is raised to heaven. There would be no call for those in the memorial tombs to come out, if they were already out and in heaven!

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Roering
03-12-2012, 13:11
If there were absolutely no limitation then there would be no need for a resurrection, that is plainly spoke of in scripture. You asked about a specific event, the Transfiguration, and I explained to you in scripture how these people came to be on the mount of Transfiguration with Jesus and the disciples.

No explanation necessary. An answer would be nice though.


So how about it King? Do you agree that nowhere in scripture does it say that Heaven is limited to just the three?

I didn't say anything about "no limitation". That is not a part of the question.

Roering
03-12-2012, 13:14
You are truly the wisest little squirrel I know.

I agree.

Squeak squeak.

Tilley
03-12-2012, 14:44
John 5:28 does not support the idea that at death, the person is raised to heaven. There would be no call for those in the memorial tombs to come out, if they were already out and in heaven!

Philippians 1:23
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far...

Wouldn't Christ be in Heaven at this point?

jknight8907
03-12-2012, 15:10
Wouldn't Christ be in Heaven at this point?

Yep.

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Vic Hays
03-12-2012, 17:15
Wouldn't Christ be in Heaven at this point?

Jesus is in heaven at this point and he has promised that he will return for us.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father`s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

For the people who think that absent in the body and present with Christ means after you die check out Paul:

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

I Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Tilley
03-12-2012, 18:07
Jesus is in heaven at this point and he has promised that he will return for us.
Vic, this may be Paul's desire to be with fellow believers. No where in any place in the Bible does Christ mention or imply "soul sleep."

But he mentions in the quote you gave "...that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

It does not imply after the second coming.

Vic Hays
03-12-2012, 19:42
Vic, this may be Paul's desire to be with fellow believers. No where in any place in the Bible does Christ mention or imply "soul sleep."

But he mentions in the quote you gave "...that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

It does not imply after the second coming.


While that particular text does not specify the second coming ,other scriptures in the Bible sure do.

I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.

Tilley
03-12-2012, 21:55
I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

We are made alive because Jesus live a perfect life we could never live, and took upon himself the punishment we deserve. This is how I see this passage.

15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.I still don't see soul sleep here Vic. This suggests to me the resurrected glorified body that enables up to live forever in Heaven with God.

While our departed may not have glorified bodies yet, they are still in Paradise with Jesus. To be away from the body is to be present with our Lord.

Geko45
03-12-2012, 22:45
Ever notice how all of scripture seems designed to convince people that they owe something to this mythical being?

Kingarthurhk
03-13-2012, 04:44
Ever notice how all of scripture seems designed to convince people that they owe something to this mythical being?

Well, let's look at that. Do you enjoy your existance, the fact that you are alive?

Consider the astonomical odds of you existing by the ammount of sperm that were trying to penetrate the egg. You were the one that did. I wouldn't consider that random chance. It is about like winning the lottery. You are alive for a purpose.

I am assumming you are or were at sometime employed. From that I am extrapulting that you owed your employer a large chunk of your life for financial enumeration.

Everything belongs to God, so the fact that you were receiving an income is a blessing.

Has any king in this world stepped off their throne, and gave their life so you could have life?

I doubt it.

In light of all those things, what do you think you would owe a God who did all those things for you?

Kingarthurhk
03-13-2012, 04:45
Vic, this may be Paul's desire to be with fellow believers. No where in any place in the Bible does Christ mention or imply "soul sleep."

But he mentions in the quote you gave "...that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

It does not imply after the second coming.

If everyone was already in heaven or hell, there would be no need for a second comming of Jesus Christ.

Arc Angel
03-13-2012, 04:51
Here! I'll do ya all a favor: The, 'state of the dead' resembles a dream-like existence where you get to, both, judge AND argue with yourself rather than with each other in the same way so many of you are doing now. (You should listen!) ;)

Kingarthurhk
03-13-2012, 05:07
Here! I'll do ya all a favor: The, 'state of the dead' resembles a dream-like existence where you get to, both, judge AND argue with yourself rather than with each other in the same way so many of you are doing now. (You should listen!) ;)

Ecclesiates 9:5-6, "<sup>5</sup> For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
<sup id="en-NIV-17482" class="versenum">6</sup> Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun."

It is kind of hard to judge and argue whe you know nothing.

Arc Angel
03-13-2012, 06:38
That didn't take long! I was waiting for someone to come back with Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 6.

'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.'

Quite frankly you don't understand what you're reading. You think you understand; but you don't. Spiritual truth does not reside within the premises of the conscious mind. (God has a rather harsh way of continuing to allow fools to be fools and the blind to lead the blind.)

Take my remarks for whatever you will. Evangelism is not my strong suit. I'm much too fond of spiritual warfare to waste my time trying to redeem what I've become convinced is the un:redeemable.

FCoulter
03-13-2012, 06:43
That didn't take long! I was waiting for someone to come back with Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 6.

'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.'

Quite frankly you don't understand what you're reading. You think you understand; but you don't. Spiritual truth does not reside within the premises of the conscious mind. (God has a rather harsh way of continuing to allow fools to be fools and the blind to lead the blind.)

Take my remarks for whatever you will. Evangelism is not my strong suit. I'm much too fond of spiritual warfare to waste my time trying to redeem what I've become convinced is the un:redeemable.

No offense, that was a pointless response!

Tilley
03-13-2012, 11:20
That didn't take long! I was waiting for someone to come back with Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 6.
It is apparent to me that Solomon was in the midst of a deep depression. From that do you really think it wise to take what he said verbatim, or see he was depressed at all the things he thought were worthy were really worthless?

Some people take things verbatim without looking at it in the context it was given. Look for the deeper meaning.

FCoulter
03-13-2012, 12:00
It is apparent to me that Solomon was in the midst of a deep depression. From that do you really think it wise to take what he said verbatim, or see he was depressed at all the things he thought were worthy were really worthless?

Some people take things verbatim without looking at it in the context it was given. Look for the deeper meaning.


Really?

Solomon was the wisest man to ever live, and do you really think GOD would allow a lie to be published in the Bible>?

If so you are blinded.

Tilley
03-13-2012, 13:19
Really?


If so you are blinded.

Dud, do you want a serious discussion, or do you just want to be a butthead to everybody?

creaky
03-13-2012, 13:24
Dud, do you want a serious discussion, or do you just want to be a butthead to everybody?

Dud? I like that. It fits in this case. Lol.

Roering
03-13-2012, 13:29
Solomon was the wisest man to ever live, and do you really think GOD would allow a lie to be published in the Bible>?


Wiser than Jesus?

And yes, lies were published in the Bible. One example would be the guy who told David that he killed Saul even though he didn't. Or how about Amnon telling David he was ill to get Tamar into his bedroom? He wasn't really sick you know.

For a guy who comes in here to tell others how to study scripture and what's wrong with their faith you sure don't know scripture very well.

Are you by chance a new Christian? Perhaps I should keep things simpler and practice more patience with you.

creaky
03-13-2012, 13:48
1. You really die

2. the body turns to dust

3. The breath of life returns to God

4. You are raised in one of two resurrections

5. Saved ones inhabit the Kingdom of God

6. Unsaved ones go to the lake of fire where they are destroyed.

There is a resurrection to life and another resurrection to judgment. Jesus said so. They are in the graves until then. Jesus said so.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
5:29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Vic, where in your version of events does the following fit in?

Matthew 13:49 and 50

49The same thing will happen at the end of time. The angels will go out and separate the evil people from people who have God’s approval. 50Then the angels will throw the evil people into a blazing furnace. They will cry and be in extreme pain there.

Seems to me that if someone is destroyed or annihilated, they wouldn't be crying or in extreme pain, would they?

Vic Hays
03-13-2012, 15:05
Vic, where in your version of events does the following fit in?

Matthew 13:49 and 50

49The same thing will happen at the end of time. The angels will go out and separate the evil people from people who have God’s approval. 50Then the angels will throw the evil people into a blazing furnace. They will cry and be in extreme pain there.

Seems to me that if someone is destroyed or annihilated, they wouldn't be crying or in extreme pain, would they?

What translation is that? It seems that someone put some of their own understanding into it. The words "extreme pain" do not occcur in the old manuscripts. Whoever wrote that already believed that God is going to be such a sadistic monster as to torture people for all eternity.

I wonder why a caring person such as yourself would wish such a thing to happen to anyone?

That is slander and an insult to the God I worship. The God I worship is a God of love who will destroy sin and the people that refuse to part with it.

The King James is a pretty good translation. If the words "extreme pain" were in the original text the King James would have it. Here is what the King James says:

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There are plenty of verses in the Bible that speak of the destruction of the lost. Why not believe them?

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

creaky
03-13-2012, 19:40
What translation is that?
That is God's Word translation. If you go to www.biblegateway.com/ you can check it out.


It seems that someone put some of their own understanding into it. The words "extreme pain" do not occcur in the old manuscripts. Whoever wrote that already believed that God is going to be such a sadistic monster as to torture people for all eternity. Ok, We'll use the archaic KJV and make all the KJV only crowd happy. Makes no difference to me in light of my very specific question.

I wonder why a caring person such as yourself would wish such a thing to happen to anyone?Maybe someone put some of their own understanding into the post I wrote, (Vic). Where did you get such a thought? Did I in any way say that I wished this on any person?

That is slander and an insult to the God I worship. The God I worship is a God of love who will destroy sin and the people that refuse to part with it.

The King James is a pretty good translation. If the words "extreme pain" were in the original text the King James would have it. Here is what the King James says:

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ok, so wailing and crying are different how? Gnashing of teeth and extreme pain? Gnashing of teeth because of extreme pain? Physically or spiritually?

The very recorded words of Christ are a slander and an insult to the God you worship? Hmmm. What are you saying Vic?

One thing for sure is that it shows there is awareness. So again, how does this fit into your version of events?

Vic Hays
03-13-2012, 22:30
Ok, so wailing and crying are different how? Gnashing of teeth and extreme pain? Gnashing of teeth because of extreme pain? Physically or spiritually?

The very recorded words of Christ are a slander and an insult to the God you worship? Hmmm. What are you saying Vic?

One thing for sure is that it shows there is awareness. So again, how does this fit into your version of events?

Wailing and gnashing of teeth leaves the cause to be interpreted. Maybe they are very dismayed at being left out of God's Kingdom and losing the prospect of eternal life.

Another thing that you are interpreting here is the amount of time that there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Is it eternally or is the fire hot enough to destroy?

Jesus own words say that God will destroy them.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.