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Glock 1
03-09-2012, 09:03
I am still reeling from the cost of getting my new AR and as such, I am looking for a less expensive option for optics. I am open to red dot, scopes, or whatever the options may be. I only need it good for about 100-200 yrds or so. I am removing the stock irons and installing MBUIS and a new hand guard w/ low-profile gas block soon and I want to do the optic at the same time. What are my least expensive but decent quality options?

Keep in mind this is mostly going to be use at the range and maybe home defense if I need some serious firepower. I am no commando or seal team six guy. I am a couch potato with a new toy. lol

faawrenchbndr
03-09-2012, 09:22
Send me a pm,........I may have an option for you.
Nothing special,.....but it's free!

Glock 1
03-09-2012, 09:34
lol. Free just happens to fall within my budget. PM sent.

FriscoCHL
03-09-2012, 09:56
Keep the thread going though. I am interested in what people have to say.

faawrenchbndr
03-09-2012, 10:08
I've offered the OP the use of a clone Aimpoint.
It's his if he would like to try it, if it works for him, the
red dot is his. If he does not care for it, I simply request
he pass it along for another to try.

Primary Arms make great low cost red dots, great decision
to try out a red dot optic.

boomhower
03-09-2012, 10:09
What is the price range? For the range a Primary Arms is a good cheap red dot. For HD the cheapest option is going to be an Aimpoint Pro for ~$400. Used Aimpoints and EOtechs are also an option.

PlasticGuy
03-09-2012, 10:28
My experience is that if you can't afford quality optics, you are better off with iron sights. That's not snobbery. I have no problem with a guy who doesn't use optics at all. I just feel that your sighting system should be something you can count on even with conditions are less than perfect, so good irons beat cheap glass.

faawrenchbndr
03-09-2012, 10:32
Very true,........BUT, if a guy has never tried one, a
low cost optic is good to see if one likes a red dot vs
a traditional variable scope.

K. Foster
03-09-2012, 10:37
I know you want to be cash conscious so this isn’t meant to be rude but with optics you really do get what you pay for. For home defense, Aimpoint or EOTech would be my choices. Another good (and less expensive) option would be a low power variable from Nikon.

K. Foster
03-09-2012, 10:44
I've offered the OP the use of a clone Aimpoint.
It's his if he would like to try it, if it works for him, the
red dot is his. If he does not care for it, I simply request
he pass it along for another to try.

Good on you! :cheers:

bmoore
03-09-2012, 10:54
I've offered the OP the use of a clone Aimpoint.
It's his if he would like to try it, if it works for him, the
red dot is his. If he does not care for it, I simply request
he pass it along for another to try.

Primary Arms make great low cost red dots, great decision
to try out a red dot optic.

:thumbsup:

Glock 1
03-09-2012, 11:08
This is really just to see what I like. I was looking at a T-1 and will eventually get a good one and in turn pay it forward and pass this one on. Thank you to faawrenchbndr too for doing this. :cool:

My rail will be done first and then it will be a few months before I can afford a decent optic.

I didn't cut cost corners with the AR and the optics will get the same consideration once I decide what is for me.

faawrenchbndr
03-09-2012, 11:20
Sounds like a plan! :thumbsup:

IGotIt
03-09-2012, 11:48
I put this one on my hog gun. http://www.truglo.com/IW_Products.m4p.pvx?;MULTI_ITEM_SUBMIT

I spent two days hunting in a new 420 acre lease in the thickest stuff I've ever been in. My gun and scope was banged around by hanging vines and tree branches, tripping on emergent vines, through thick palmetto groves all the while chasing little piggies, then bouncing around in a swamp buggy, climbing into tree stands and blinds. Never lost zero, and yes I was successful taking two hogs that hunt.

Others in the party looked at it and were surprised how good the dots were without halos or blurring. Amazon has it for about $84 shipped. Yes you can get better, but like you I was on a budget.

Primary Arm does have good stuff, I know a few people who are extremely pleased with their optics and Vortex has good optics also. Those are reasonably priced too.

Gunnut 45/454
03-09-2012, 12:16
So far I've been very pleased with my two Vortex Strikefires one on my primary SD/HD 5.56mm and the other on my 300 Blk. Both have held zero and have performed as I expect them too. :supergrin:

Glock 1
03-09-2012, 12:33
I put this one on my hog gun. http://www.truglo.com/IW_Products.m4p.pvx?;MULTI_ITEM_SUBMIT

I spent two days hunting in a new 420 acre lease in the thickest stuff I've ever been in. My gun and scope was banged around by hanging vines and tree branches, tripping on emergent vines, through thick palmetto groves all the while chasing little piggies, then bouncing around in a swamp buggy, climbing into tree stands and blinds. Never lost zero, and yes I was successful taking two hogs that hunt.

Others in the party looked at it and were surprised how good the dots were without halos or blurring. Amazon has it for about $84 shipped. Yes you can get better, but like you I was on a budget.

Primary Arm does have good stuff, I know a few people who are extremely pleased with their optics and Vortex has good optics also. Those are reasonably priced too.

You using .223 for the hog gun or something larger? I have a friend who is asking me and a friend of mine to come out to her land to deal with some wild hogs that have killed two of her dogs and some other kind of pet. I was contemplating going.

eracer
03-09-2012, 12:45
I've offered the OP the use of a clone Aimpoint.
It's his if he would like to try it, if it works for him, the
red dot is his. If he does not care for it, I simply request
he pass it along for another to try.

Primary Arms make great low cost red dots, great decision
to try out a red dot optic.That's pretty cool of you.

WoodenPlank
03-09-2012, 13:04
FAA is a good dude. I got a P7 about a year ago, and he hooked me up with the combo tool for it, and solt it to me for a very fair price.

The PA optic will be good, but it's still not as rugged as an Aimpoint. Take the money you would have spent otherwise, and save up some more to get an Aimpoint T1 or PRO, or for a quality magnified optic. For the distances you want to shoot, though, I'd stick with a red dot. Hits on man-sized targets are a piece of cake, even to 150 yards and beyond with a properly zeroed red dot.

John43
03-09-2012, 13:30
Mueller has their new Super Shot 1-4x24 out and it is $249. If you go to their website they have some demos, pre-production models for $160. Video on Military Arms Channel. Demo price is $160. The only thing different is some of the markings location has changed.

Javelin
03-09-2012, 13:33
Probably just tell you to get an AimPoint Pro. It's a really reliable and great optic that will last you a lifetime.

:wavey:

pag23
03-09-2012, 15:36
I have the PA red dot with a riser to co-witness with my FSB... It works well but I did have to get use to the red dot & FSB... At some point I am going to look into a used Aimpoint....

Nice going FAA!!

JimBianchi
03-09-2012, 16:13
So far I've been very pleased with my two Vortex Strikefires one on my primary SD/HD 5.56mm and the other on my 300 Blk. Both have held zero and have performed as I expect them too. :supergrin:

Yep.

Got two of the Vortex Crossfires for an insane price of $55 each.

I put them in a Primary Arms one piece off-set mount.

Very sturdy and holds zero forever.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/vortex.pl?page=vortexcrossfire1-4x32

jrs93accord
03-09-2012, 16:48
First, let me say that Greg is a super guy. That is why I have a great deal of respect for him.

Now, there are a few options. I prefer the offerings from Primary Arms and Millett.

Millett DMS w/ Burris PEPR mount
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea%202012/003-4.jpg

Primary Arms Micro-Dot w/ American Defense mount
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea%202012/001-7.jpg

Primary Arms M3 w/ high mount
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea_08/jamesrea09/jamesrea10/009.jpg

Primary Arms also has a scope that is very sililar to the Millett DMS.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_14X_24_Illuminated_Scope_p/pa%201-4x.htm

Boxerglocker
03-09-2012, 20:16
Good on you FAA...

Any comments on this bargain combo....
http://swfa.com/Optisan-1-4x24-Mamba-EAR30-Mount-Combo-P51887.aspx
for $150 for a mount and illuminated 1-4 thinking of something for my S&W M&P 15-22 though the scope is rated for .223.

faawrenchbndr
03-10-2012, 04:17
FAA is a good dude. I got a P7 about a year ago, and he hooked me up with the combo tool for it, and solt it to me for a very fair price.

......


I REALLY should have kept that one! :faint:

You all are tarnishing my bad reputation! I knew this freebie
was a bad idea! :rofl:

Teecher45
03-10-2012, 08:58
That's just awesome.
I agree with most. If it's going to be for defense of the family don't skimp. When I first decided to get an AR I saved until I could afford a good one. Immediately put a G2 in an Elzetta mount on it. Spent almost 2 years saving for a good optic (and getting used to the irons) and ended-up getting a H-1 in a LaRue mount.

AaronZR2
03-10-2012, 12:46
I've got a Vortex SPARC on mine and I love it

FriscoCHL
03-10-2012, 15:27
Does anyone know if this would require a mount or "riser" of some sort?

http://www.truglo.com/IW_Products.m4p.pvx?;MULTI_ITEM_SUBMIT

copo9560
03-10-2012, 15:39
Figure out what you want and carefully shop for the best price. I purchased a new EOTech 512 last year for $350, free shipping, from Amazon. Works nice with BUIS.

Restless28
03-10-2012, 16:32
I like the Eotechs. They seem to fit my eyes.

JoeFriday77
03-10-2012, 16:53
Take a look at the Bushnell TRS-25. I caught one in the Amazon Warehouse deals for $76.

Glock 1
03-10-2012, 18:45
Figure out what you want and carefully shop for the best price. I purchased a new EOTech 512 last year for $350, free shipping, from Amazon. Works nice with BUIS.

I am leaning heavily towards the 512. I really like it. I used it on another rifle and loved it. Plus, I can get it fairly cheap.

Two Guns
03-10-2012, 19:18
I got a Bushnell Trophy that is a kind of a clone of a ACOG. It cost me $150 and has treated my well. I do plan on getting a better optic when I have the funds.

WoodenPlank
03-10-2012, 19:39
I am leaning heavily towards the 512. I really like it. I used it on another rifle and loved it. Plus, I can get it fairly cheap.

The 512 is one of the models with known battery issues. As others have said, if you get an EO Tech, definitely get one of the newer XPS models - the transverse-mounted battery helps a lot. They are still not as rugged as an Aimpoint, though.

Glock 1
03-11-2012, 09:13
The 512 is one of the models with known battery issues. As others have said, if you get an EO Tech, definitely get one of the newer XPS models - the transverse-mounted battery helps a lot. They are still not as rugged as an Aimpoint, though.

I didn't know that. When it comes time and I have the funds I will be doing a whole lot more research before I buy.

WoodenPlank
03-11-2012, 11:19
I didn't know that. When it comes time and I have the funds I will be doing a whole lot more research before I buy.

The battery contacts tend to go to crap under use, since the batteries lay in line with the recoil direction. Plenty of people have reported the sights randomly cutting off while shooting, all because a battery lost contact for a split second. The XPS models fix this issue, but still seem to suffer from other failures.

K. Foster
03-11-2012, 13:29
EO recommends that only Energizer Lithium batteries be used (AA models). Lithium batteries are about 1/3 lighter than the more common alkaline batteries. This small weight reduction helps to mitigate the issue where the recoil will actually cause the batteries to lose touch with the power contacts thus making the sight shut off during firing.
I got this from an EOTech rep.

The old “N” battery EO’s were plagued with issues. The AA models have been better. All the battery contact issues I have personally seen could have been attributed to using non lithium batteries. I’m not saying they are as durable as Aimpoint. Just that most of the battery contact issues are from using Alkaline batteries.
My 512 has been good but if I were to buy an EO today, it would only be an XPS model.

r3dot
03-11-2012, 14:33
I'm very much thinking about getting the Lucid HD7. I've been in a toss up between the Strikefire, sparc, and Lucid. I love how the Lucid looks, I love the features, but I hate the weight (13 ounces). We'll see. I'm still holding out for a used Eotech or Aimpoint.

Noblinger
03-15-2012, 22:00
Mueller Speed Shot 1-424 (http://muelleroptics.com/mueller-quickdot-1-4x24) or Bushnell TRS-25 Red dot.

Patriot III
03-16-2012, 05:52
I've offered the OP the use of a clone Aimpoint.
It's his if he would like to try it, if it works for him, the
red dot is his. If he does not care for it, I simply request
he pass it along for another to try.

Primary Arms make great low cost red dots, great decision
to try out a red dot optic.

Very nice offer. You are to be commended. :wavey:


I like the Vortex SPARC and the reviews it has received.

Glock 1
03-16-2012, 16:20
First, a very special thank you to faawrenchbndr for his generosity and helping me out with my very first experience with red dots. My irons must be fairly accurate as they co-witness with the red dot almost perfectly. That or they are both off in the same direction. lol

I am FINALLY getting to the range tomorrow and I am stoked to shoot my new AR. I am tired of pretend killing candles, my TV, and my dogs. Range report to come but I will post it on my AR thread here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407364

Pics or it didn't happen right? :supergrin:


http://www.thepistoldepot.com/mypics/aroptic.jpg

Glock 1
03-17-2012, 13:08
Ok, range report. I am blind. lol

I chose the 50yd range since this is my first time. I am glad I did. I can't see ^%*. I hit the target but my group is about the size of a dinner plate. The problem is I can't see where I am hitting from 50 yds away. I had another shooter who says he was an ex-sniper give me some tips and tell me I was hitting the bulls eye when I used his technique and that's fine but when I am aiming, I need to be closer. I cannot see the differences in the target and cannot tell where I am hitting.

So, I am thinking magnification. An illuminated scope maybe? I am a noob so I need advice. Am I on the right track thinking scope?

Some background on me. I am 41yrs old next month and wearing brand new glasses which give me excellent vision under normal circumstances.

Incidentally, the gun shoots like a dream. I am definitely hooked.

Ruggles
03-17-2012, 13:14
I've offered the OP the use of a clone Aimpoint.
It's his if he would like to try it, if it works for him, the
red dot is his. If he does not care for it, I simply request
he pass it along for another to try.

Primary Arms make great low cost red dots, great decision
to try out a red dot optic.

Good stuff, karma sent your way!

joecoastie
03-17-2012, 13:19
Ok, range report. I am blind. lol

I chose the 50yd range since this is my first time. I am glad I did. I can't see ^%*. I hit the target but my group is about the size of a dinner plate. The problem is I can't see where I am hitting from 50 yds away. I had another shooter who says he was an ex-sniper give me some tips and tell me I was hitting the bulls eye when I used his technique and that's fine but when I am aiming, I need to be closer. I cannot see the differences in the target and cannot tell where I am hitting.

So, I am thinking magnification. An illuminated scope maybe? I am a noob so I need advice. Am I on the right track thinking scope?

Some background on me. I am 41yrs old next month and wearing brand new glasses which give me excellent vision under normal circumstances.

Incidentally, the gun shoots like a dream. I am definitely hooked.

I would say stick with the red dot and irons and get either some binos or a spotting scope. Shoot at least 3-5 rounds and then look through the spotting scope to see where you're putting them. Concentrate on keeping the same sight picture each time.

Ruggles
03-17-2012, 13:20
Ok, range report. I am blind. lol

I chose the 50yd range since this is my first time. I am glad I did. I can't see ^%*. I hit the target but my group is about the size of a dinner plate. The problem is I can't see where I am hitting from 50 yds away. I had another shooter who says he was an ex-sniper give me some tips and tell me I was hitting the bulls eye when I used his technique and that's fine but when I am aiming, I need to be closer. I cannot see the differences in the target and cannot tell where I am hitting.

So, I am thinking magnification. An illuminated scope maybe? I am a noob so I need advice. Am I on the right track thinking scope?

Some background on me. I am 41yrs old next month and wearing brand new glasses which give me excellent vision under normal circumstances.

Incidentally, the gun shoots like a dream. I am definitely hooked.


Be wary of ex-snipers at the local range, you can spot them near the ex-Seals :)

I would say dinner plate at 50 yards works for self defense :) but you may want to try a 1x4 scope, Nikon and Burris (amoung others) make some designed just for ARs :)

Glock 1
03-17-2012, 15:20
Going to search GT for an inexpensive scope option since I have to get a mount and probably rings too. I only need it to be effective at the range for 50-200 yards. for HD I will go iron sights.

Glock 1
03-17-2012, 15:47
Be wary of ex-snipers at the local range, you can spot them near the ex-Seals :)

lol. My BS detector was going off a little to be honest. he was shooting a 460 Wby right next to me. Damn thing was LOUD! :wow:

txgunguy
03-17-2012, 17:39
Very true,........BUT, if a guy has never tried one, a
low cost optic is good to see if one likes a red dot vs
a traditional variable scope.

I agree. I got a primary arms over a year ago to see if I liked it. Well I did and now the primary arms is on my .22.

ETA: I'm young with 20/20 vision and I cant see hits at 50 yards with irons or a red dot.

Glock 1
03-17-2012, 17:53
So maybe I am not old? :supergrin: Hey, it was worth a shot. lol

Ok, don't flame me but being on a strict budget, what do you think of this?

http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/trophy-xlt/product/?n=6

On this mount:

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=EX0027&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=42e7b122-a6b4-4865-ba95-6586ae8e163f

I will be removing the front A frame and putting on a floating rail so the front sight will not be in the way.

I get these at cost so while the price may be comparable to the Primary Arms, I cannot get PA st a discount. So, keep that in mind. I am just looking for a decent range scope.

Glock 1
03-17-2012, 18:04
I would say stick with the red dot and irons and get either some binos or a spotting scope. Shoot at least 3-5 rounds and then look through the spotting scope to see where you're putting them. Concentrate on keeping the same sight picture each time.

Good advice, I got the same at the range and it does work. The problem is, I keep the same picture and gently squeeze off a round or two but then I cant tell which miss is which. Any advice for that? I really don't want to be spotting each shot. I am open to suggestions though.

WoodenPlank
03-17-2012, 20:36
Glock, concentrate on learning the irons and the red dot. Adding a magnified scope to things now will just cause you more confusion.

Were you shooting at round/bullseye type targets, silhouettes, or something else?

Shooting smaller bullseye targets doesn't work well with a red dot, especially starting out. Using a larger silhouette type target helps a lot, since you have more reference area to work with that's visible around the dot. Put the dot between the shoulders (in the same place every time), squeeze trigger, repeat. Make sure to concentrate on trigger squeeze, and not slapping or jerking it.

With practice, you should be able to keep all of your hits in a group the size of the dot. Remember, red dot sights are meant for shooting COM groups against man-sized targets, not shooting tight little groups into small bullseye targets.

Glock 1
03-18-2012, 09:54
I was about to respond and describe my target but thought what better way than to post the target itself. I only kept the last one.

Then I got to thinking, my target only has 1 full magazine in it, how many holes are in it? So, I got it out and counted.

This target is approximately half irons and half red dot. Keep in mind I have not zeroed because I had no way of looking down range at the target to see where I was hitting until the ceasefires. I can account for all 30 rounds in this target.

50 Yds, TulAmmo 55 gr. sitting, holding the rifle and resting my arms on the bench. No sandbags.

http://www.thepistoldepot.com/mypics/artarget.jpg

I had a second target that had a couple hundred rounds in it and they were all low and left. In my excitement of shooting the AR for the first time, I was fat fingering the trigger and jerking low and left. Once I figured that out and started taking my time with acquiring, I got the target you see above.

So, I went with a friend who also bought and shot his AR at the same time and he got similar results. He texted me last night and said he has binocs he is going to take next time so he can see his target.

Since it is going to be some time before I can afford a scope, I will do the irons and practice. Once I have that down I will try the red dot again. I love shooting this rifle so much I am tempted to go back today. :supergrin:

I find I can only shoot for a limited time because my left eye becomes very blurry from being closed while focusing through the sites to the target. After only 1 magazine at that. Any advice on that?

faawrenchbndr
03-18-2012, 12:05
Glock 1


First off,.......glad to hear you like the Aimpoint clone. I used it on a .22lr
until recently. As far as others' stating you need to get proficent with
iron sights, they are correct, to a point. Many of the top carbine instructors
advocate the use of an optic, Aimpoint, EoTech, ACOG. I do agree, you should
practice with irons. Now for a scope? I would recommend a Leupold Mark AR
1.5-4. I have one and really like it. Millet also makes a DMS-1 that is very good
for the price. It also has a illuminated reticle, where the Leupold does not.

faawrenchbndr
03-18-2012, 12:09
Forgot to comment on the target. For a new AR shooter, at 50m
I think that is darn good shooting. I would suggest backing the target up
to 25m. I would also suggest using the "Shoot & See" or "Splatter" targets.
The targets will help you see inpacts very well, the shortened distance
will instill confidence in your shooting and help you concentrate on basics.
Be careful jerking the triigger, feel & hear the trigger's reset after each shot.
Also shoot "nose to charging handle"

FriscoCHL
03-18-2012, 12:49
Forgot to comment on the target. For a new AR shooter, at 50m
I think that is darn good shooting. I would suggest backing the target up
to 25m. I would also suggest using the "Shoot & See" or "Splatter" targets.
The targets will help you see inpacts very well, the shortened distance
will instill confidence in your shooting and help you concentrate on basics.
Be careful jerking the triigger, feel & hear the trigger's reset after each shot.
Also shoot "nose to charging handle"

Great advice!! I too had problems my first time out, And found myself getting frustrated and not concentrating on what I was doing. I see you live in musqueet, which range were you shooting at?
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404856

ps, when your done with that red dot I would love to give a shot...:wavey:

eta: what brand is that red dot?

nathanours
03-18-2012, 12:55
I have one of the Primary Arms M4 red dots and it is a great sight for the money. As long as you have BUIS you'll be fine in the event it fails. I've gotten mine soaked, and beat all around and the zero is still perfect.

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/glock19_9mm/IMG_0197.jpg

faawrenchbndr
03-18-2012, 13:02
......that red dot I would love to give a shot...:wavey:

eta: what brand is that red dot?


No idea what it is,......I bought it used years ago. A member on ARFcom
used to sell them for like $60 a few years back. I bought it for a .22LR
upper I have. Eventually I replaced it with smaller optic for the .22

ithaca_deerslayer
03-18-2012, 14:06
Ok, range report. I am blind. lol

I chose the 50yd range since this is my first time. I am glad I did. I can't see ^%*. I hit the target but my group is about the size of a dinner plate. The problem is I can't see where I am hitting from 50 yds away. I had another shooter who says he was an ex-sniper give me some tips and tell me I was hitting the bulls eye when I used his technique and that's fine but when I am aiming, I need to be closer. I cannot see the differences in the target and cannot tell where I am hitting.

So, I am thinking magnification. An illuminated scope maybe? I am a noob so I need advice. Am I on the right track thinking scope?

Some background on me. I am 41yrs old next month and wearing brand new glasses which give me excellent vision under normal circumstances.

Incidentally, the gun shoots like a dream. I am definitely hooked.

Why do you need to know where you are hitting?

Stick with the red dot you got set up with. If you are just learning, dinner plate sized groups are fine. Are you sitting at a bench and resting the gun, to get that size groups? If so, it won't take long to shrink the groups down a bit, assuming nothing is loose, and your ammo is matched to your barrel.

If shooting dinner plate groups at 50 yards, standing off-hand (meaning not rested on anything), then you aren't really too much worse than the average shooter. Over time you could get those same sized groups at 100 yards but it will take a while to gain that skill, maybe a month, maybe 2 years, maybe never.

Magnification is nice for longer shots, but not much needed at 50 yards or closer. At that distance many prefer a red dot. And a red dot absolutely is better than a magnified scope, when things up close and fast.

So give yourself some time. Sit at a bench, resting the gun on sandbags while you hold it. Learn what you and your setup are capable of that way at 50 and 100 yards, shooting real slow. Then when shooting off-hand, you don't have to see where your shots are going, you know where they are going :)

WoodenPlank
03-18-2012, 14:33
Move to 25 yards, use a larger target (more reference points outside the dot help in consistency), take your time, and use better ammo than Tula.

ithaca_deerslayer
03-18-2012, 14:56
Good advice, I got the same at the range and it does work. The problem is, I keep the same picture and gently squeeze off a round or two but then I cant tell which miss is which. Any advice for that? I really don't want to be spotting each shot. I am open to suggestions though.

Doesn't matter which miss is which. What you are doing with target shooting is establishing a probability of hitting the target. You don't hear people talk about statistical probability in that context, but that's what it is, if that helps any.

So once you get the scope adjusted on target (sighted in, zeroed), then shoot 5 shot groups. You may need help getting the scope sighted in, but let's assume it is.

Start out sitting at a bench. 50 yards is fine. One method is to hold the gun similar to how you would if standing, but rest your front hand on a sand bag, and your back elbow on the bench (both elbows on the bench is good if it works out that way). On a clean target, shoot 5 shots very slowly, always aiming in the exact same spot, no matter where your shots go, as long as they are on paper. If not on paper, move the target closer until they are on paper. If the scope is sighted in, your shots will be centered on the target (around whatever you were aiming at, usually a bull's eye).

How far apart are those shots? Measure the distance between the 2 farthest apart shots, measuring from the center of the one bullet hole to the center of the other bullet hole. That is your group size. Maybe your group size is 8", and then you try again, another clean target, and your group size is 6". Then maybe 4", as you get better at figuring out how to shoot more accurately from the bench. Maybe you eventually get down to 3" groups at 50 yards, respectable enough for a home defense semi-auto. 2" would be better, but oh well.

Are those groups centered on the bull's eye? If not, adjust your scope until they are.

Let's assume you get down to a 3" benchrest group at 50 yards. No hype, no pressure, no internet BS. Real actual shooting, let's assume you get that group size consistantly. Now you know that you can put a bullet within 1.5" of whatever you aim at. Understand why I say you don't need to see you shots? You know where they are going :)

Now you need to try shooting while standing and not using the rest. Called off-hand shooting. Uh, oh, your groups just opened up to 8". But that's ok, because there's a good probability they are centered around your bull's eye. And you'll know there's a good chance you can put a bullet witin 4" of where you aim :)

If your groups are not quite centered when shooting off-hand, do not adjust your scope. You just need to learn to shoot better. Don't go chasing shots or adjusting things at this point, instead stick with plan, and play the odds that the shots will be near the center of the target if you aim there.

Takes time to get this confidence and faith in your shooting, but this is the approach to take, in my opinion. Others may have a different plan :) Let me know if you have any questions. This all works at 100 and 200 yards, also. Beyond that, you have to know about bullet drop and methods to account for that.

Glock 1
03-18-2012, 18:58
Lots of good advice from everyone. I was going to go back to the range today but life got in the way.

I plan on going back next weekend with my usual C n Shoot targets. In my excitement to go to the range this last time I left them at home.

I found that this gun was actually made in 04, not 08 and so it has the C carrier and while that may not have a bearing on the grouping, it is worth noting that my trigger pull is very rough. It's almost like it has several mini breaks before the on that drops the hammer. Everything is well lubed in the trigger group too. It's not smooth like my Glocks. I remember thinking it was kind of weird but never thought much about it until now. I have been dry firing it since I cleaned it today and it appears to be smoothing out so I will see what happens next time I go.

Glock 1
03-18-2012, 19:00
By the way, this was bench rest, both elbows on the bench, no sandbags. I confess I was excited about shooting it and may not have taken my time on every shot.

ithaca_deerslayer
03-18-2012, 19:41
By the way, this was bench rest, both elbows on the bench, no sandbags. I confess I was excited about shooting it and may not have taken my time on every shot.

Gotta use sandbags. If not available, use kitty litter, if you have cat. A couple double bagged plastic grocery bags, covered in a ptotective towel should work.

Do NOT use those "shoot and see" targets if you are following any of my advice :) Instead, make your 5 shots aiming at a plain bull's eye as best you can. Aim at the center each time. Don't be distracted by where your shots are going.

You want slow, steady, boring, consistant, slow, boring, slow, and more slow. Breath in and out deep breaths, counting to 10 between shots. Bring your heart rate down. Your trigger pull should be very slow and steady, like 30 seconds to slowly pull the trigger. No sudden movements, no guessing when the gun is going to fire. The actual BOOM should be a surprise to you.

This type of shooting is the building block for other things to follow. But you've first got to work on getting a rock solid bench rest, and good slow steady trigger pull, and find your accuracy potential. When you find that smaller group size you are looking for, then you'll have something to work on as you progress away fom the bench :)

"Shoot and see" targets are fun for later on.

Glock 1
03-19-2012, 05:04
lol did you say slow? Just kidding. I will take the advice. I definitely need it. You all have so much more experience than I do, I would be stupid not to heed your advice.

I have alot of regular bullseye targets and C n Shoot so I have options.

I have gotten used to not expecting the BOOM. I had to do that to bring my handgun accuracy up. I think if I had been left alone at the range I would have settled down after the initial excitement of shooting had worn off and I might have gotten a better final group. But, it was fun either way .

I usually do what you describe in my handgun shooting. I really think I need to find some open land and go blast through the last 300rds of this Tula ammo and get past the "look at my new toy! Just call me the terminator!" stage. :supergrin:

WoodenPlank identified some issues with my sight picture in FriscoCHL's thread he posted above. I have never shot a rifle like this, and never for accuracy on any kind of rifle. Not to mention its probably been 20 years since I held a rifle. So I need to fine tune and practice.

I could kick myself for not having one before now. :shocked:

ithaca_deerslayer
03-19-2012, 05:57
I have gotten used to not expecting the BOOM. I had to do that to bring my handgun accuracy up. . .
I usually do what you describe in my handgun shooting.

Good about the handgun experience, because it is the same stuff over again with the rifle :)

Since you have fun shooting it, maybe think about also getting a .22 rifle with a magnified scope. That is fun and they are easy to shoot, and inexpensive. You could find a used one with the scope on it, for about $100, and the ammo is real cheap.

Then you'd have that different kind of scope to play with on the .22 and see how it compares to using the red dot. I'm not suggesting moving the scopes, but just getting used to them on their respective guns. May help you compare the pluses and minuses and decide better as to what kind of setup you prefer.

Me, I've got hunting experience I use to inform my home defence choices. I don't have any LEO or Ninja experience. With magnified scopes, the field of view is low and I've had deer moving quickly up close that are hard to pick up in the scope. But a red dot (typically unmagnified) lets you see inside and around the outside of the scope as one image, picking up movement and getting on target quicker. Sort of like how you can see inside and around iron sights.

People get good with a magnified scope, but up close and fast a red dot or iron sights are still better. And the red dot has the low light advantage too. Just my opinion of course, so as always try and see what you like for your uses.

Glock 1
03-19-2012, 06:10
My issue with the red dot is the front sight post getting in the way. I plan on replacing it but for now, its an issue.

The Pirate
03-19-2012, 11:34
My issue with the red dot is the front sight post getting in the way. I plan on replacing it but for now, its an issue.

Get a good mount and a riser and cowitness your sights with the red dot. You'll never notice the front post after that. If you don't know exactly what I'm talking about, search for "AR-15 cowitness" or something close. Good luck


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WoodenPlank
03-19-2012, 13:01
Get a good mount and a riser and cowitness your sights with the red dot. You'll never notice the front post after that. If you don't know exactly what I'm talking about, search for "AR-15 cowitness" or something close. Good luck


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I'm pretty sure the mount for his red dot is set up to allows cowitnessing. Most likely, though, its a true cowitness, and leaves a lot of the front sight tower in the red dot field of view.

faawrenchbndr
03-19-2012, 13:49
That mount is an actual Aimpoint QRP mount.

I use only Larue mounts for all my optics. Not cheap but the quality & return to zero is priceless!

Glock 1
03-19-2012, 16:35
I was cleaning out my range bag and found my first target. I swear I tossed it but I guess I didn't.

This is the one I was excited to be shooting on. lol. I was fat fingering and firing relatively fast on this one. You can tell by the low and left. I alternated between irons and red dot. This is 3 magazines, 30 rds each. This is the one my barrel was smoking on. lol God, I love this gun.

http://www.thepistoldepot.com/mypics/target2.jpg

The 7 at the top are after the ex sniper told me to slow down and stop fat fingering the trigger. Which, I already knew but was still in couch ninja mode having fun.

WoodenPlank
03-19-2012, 17:15
That mount is an actual Aimpoint QRP mount.

I use only Larue mounts for all my optics. Not cheap but the quality & return to zero is priceless!

No freaking kidding. The look on someones face after I pull my Aimpoint off (Lt-129 and all), punt it across the rifle bay, re mount it, and stop 30 rounds in the 150 yard gong offhand is priceless. I know I've sold a few LaRue mounts doing that... :rofl:

I was cleaning out my range bag and found my first target. I swear I tossed it but I guess I didn't.

This is the one I was excited to be shooting on. lol. I was fat fingering and firing relatively fast on this one. You can tell by the low and left. I alternated between irons and red dot. This is 3 magazines, 30 rds each. This is the one my barrel was smoking on. lol God, I love this gun.

http://www.thepistoldepot.com/mypics/target2.jpg

The 7 at the top are after the ex sniper told me to slow down and stop fat fingering the trigger. Which, I already knew but was still in couch ninja mode having fun.

Work on your trigger control, get your dot zeroed, and use a bigger target. With a small crosshair, a small point of reference is fine. When your dot is covering 1-2" of target at 50 yards, though, you need to see more of what's around that dot to be able to keep it in the same place every time, especially when you're learning.

Side note: Definitely zero it at 50 yards. Youll hit about 1-1.5" low at 25 yards, but that's fine. It keep the dot MUCH closer to the path of the bullet out to about 200 yards.