Man Pulls Gun Outside Holiday Market to Stop Knife-Wielding Man [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TBO
03-09-2012, 09:13
Man Pulls Gun Outside Holiday Market to Stop Knife-Wielding Man from Assaulting Couple with Baby

http://royaloak.patch.com/articles/man-pulls-gun-outside-holiday-market-to-stop-knife-wielding-man-from-assaulting-couple-with-baby


http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/03/08/news/local_news/doc4f5926b4c8306728804395.txt

EAJuggalo
03-09-2012, 15:28
Jambog

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407225

Gunnut 45/454
03-09-2012, 15:31
Good job! He probably saved a few lives including the knife weilders! I might not have been so tolerant as to ask/demand he drop the knife 7 times! I'm a three strikes your out type of guy!:whistling:

Patchman
03-09-2012, 15:43
OK, let me see if I got this right.

On Monday, David Harold Shuten, 43, of Madison Heights, was trying to break the driverís side window of a vehicle occupied by a 49-year-old man. A couple with an infant yelled at him to stop.

So when the driver of the vehicle was able to escape without injury, Shuten turned his attention on the couple and child.

As Shuten approached the couple, another customer in the parking lot who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon pulled out his firearm and ordered Shuten to drop the knife. After several commands to drop his weapon, Shuten complied.

OK, my conclusion is that the customer with the gun, and who took action, is NOT a GT poster. :rofl: Kudos to him.

And the couple with the baby were, apparently, unarmed. But they still took action. Definitely not GT posters. :rofl: Kudos to them as well.

Brian Lee
03-09-2012, 15:44
Good job! He probably saved a few lives including the knife weilders! I might not have been so tolerant as to ask/demand he drop the knife 7 times! I'm a three strikes your out type of guy!:whistling:

When it's a couple with a baby I'd only give him one warning and that's it. Not every one deserves three strikes.

Rick68FL
03-09-2012, 16:54
Bunch of bad ***** internet Rambos...

I would have given him every opportunity I could have to come to his senses - right up until he started to get too close to the people with the baby.

Guess the rest of you have an extra $50k floating around to pay that defense attorney

wprebeck
03-09-2012, 17:12
Bunch of bad ***** internet Rambos...

I would have given him every opportunity I could have to come to his senses - right up until he started to get too close to the people with the baby.

Guess the rest of you have an extra $50k floating around to pay that defense attorney

Well, if you're too scared to help, just say so.

CLoft239
03-09-2012, 17:32
Bunch of bad ***** internet Rambos...

I would have given him every opportunity I could have to come to his senses - right up until he started to get too close to the people with the baby.


How close is too close? The average person can cover ground real fast if they decide to break out into a sprint.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

jbailey8
03-09-2012, 17:33
Yeah, I think I would give a guy with a knife more than a few chances.

Veedubklown
03-09-2012, 19:56
Bunch of bad ***** internet Rambos...

I would have given him every opportunity I could have to come to his senses - right up until he started to get too close to the people with the baby.

Guess the rest of you have an extra $50k floating around to pay that defense attorney
+1
Well, if you're too scared to help, just say so.
:rofl::rofl:

You know what doesn't get me involved with the police? Some crazy dude stabbing a man woman and child. However, I would have trouble sleeping with myself if I stood by and did nothing. I would give the dude ample chance to drop his weapon, because killing someone is a last resort. Ideally before he makes someone dead first.

If he was charging, that's a different scenario, but as many chances as he got, he may have just been waving it around. :dunno: wasn't there.

Misty02
03-09-2012, 20:10
Iím all for happy endings. :)

I also wonder, did the couple with the baby think things through before intervention and had a plan to address the manís aggression once it turned to them because they interfered?

.

BK63
03-10-2012, 07:41
If you have ever seen a knife self defense video, and pics of somebody that has really been cut up, you would never under estimate the seriousness of somebody with a knife. I think the guy did a good job.

Wishoot
03-10-2012, 07:50
Bravo!

Sounds like this CCW holder managed the situation perfectly. Kudos for not escalating this to the point of deadly force.

Wasatch
03-10-2012, 07:50
Bunch of bad ***** internet Rambos...


Not to dogpile on you, cuz, but you're the one with the avatar that appears to be you pointing your pistol at all of us. Who's the BAMF Internet Rambo? :tongueout:

voomie
03-10-2012, 09:12
No one died and the ccw hold did not go to jail so I say it was handled perfectly.

Rick68FL
03-10-2012, 12:42
No one died and the ccw hold did not go to jail so I say it was handled perfectly.

:goodpost:

Louisville Glocker
03-10-2012, 17:24
Wow. Really well done as far as I can tell from the info there.

I like that the civilian ordered the man to drop the knife. The CCW carrier has every right to do that (use deadly force or the threat of deadly force -KY, at least in my state) in that situation. Yes, repeat order if it is ignored. There is no magic number of times to repeat order. Every situation is obviously different. Use best judgement.

Keep in mind that knives are deadly weapons. They can kill you just as quickly as a bullet. Members of my immediate family were present during a knife attack in downtown Chicago, and it got ugly and bloody very quickly. The attacker was eventually apprehended only by physical force by my brother and others. One person was seriously disfigured, but lived. Take knives seriously!

steveksux
03-10-2012, 17:49
Bunch of bad ***** internet Rambos...

I would have given him every opportunity I could have to come to his senses - right up until he started to get too close to the people with the baby.

Guess the rest of you have an extra $50k floating around to pay that defense attorneyI agree with this approach 100%. However, the devil is in the details, as next post points out.
How close is too close? The average person can cover ground real fast if they decide to break out into a sprint.True enough.
The other issue is if the guy decides to move towards the couple, do you lose a clear background, or a clear foreground? Would you still have a clear shot? If not, do you give him a chance to figure that out and attack them, or do you shoot, maybe without even a warning? Something to think about.

Granted, that's a hell of a lot of thinking to be doing in a fast moving situation, not sure I'd expect anyone to be thinking that far ahead. But something to consider if it ever happens to you. Hindsight in someone else's situation can be your foresight.
Well, if you're too scared to help, just say so.I usually agree with you, but not necessarily this time. Situation worked out. Was the guy in the parking lot lucky, or did he really have it covered? Don't know, wasn't there. Seems like he did fine. I don't think you can say he was too scared to help, he intervened and handled it. And anyone agreeing with his approach is about the same, in my book, seems to me. Scared to help would be walking away and not getting involved.

There's a point you can shoot, but don't have to. Sounds like this case, IMO, unless the guy was lucky rather than correctly assessing the situation and reacting appropriately.

Then there's a point you really do have to shoot. Not shooting in that second case would be a case of too scared to help. But stepping up, pulling the gun, getting involved, makes you a potential target for the knife wielder to attack, so I say definitely NOT too scared to act.

There's probably a whole lot of gray in between those two points too, depending on the situation, circumstances.

Saw your thread about your off duty gig getting robbed twice recently, keep your head on a swivel in there. Sounds like they know your schedule and are trying to avoid you. But it could just be dumb luck on their part, trying to pick a time the store is less busy. Next time they could stumble onto you, or even target you. Are you in uniform and easily identified, or plainclothes for this? Either way, be careful, stay safe....

The other interesting thing is this is Royal Oak, I take bass lessons basically across the street from that Holiday Market, and its definitely the perfect postcard of a "safe" suburban area. I spend lots of time, late at night at my wife's rental in Detroit, expecting trouble, finding none. Here something goes down like this at the last place you'd expect. Just goes to show you you should never let your guard down, there's no "safe" areas.

Randy

NEOH212
03-10-2012, 22:45
My gun is to protect me. Not anyone else. Whatever happens that doesn't happen to me isn't my problem and I'm not going to make it so.

If we didn't have a society and legal system that was so eager to hang the good guy, perhaps I would have a different opinion. I'm not going to spend 50K or 50 years for defending someone else. Hell, the police aren't even obligated to protect you so why in the hell should I?

I guess the family should have been armed and taken their personal protection more seriously. Perhaps they will think twice before they open their mouth next time. :whistling:

Misty02
03-11-2012, 11:22
My gun is to protect me. Not anyone else. Whatever happens that doesn't happen to me isn't my problem and I'm not going to make it so.

If we didn't have a society and legal system that was so eager to hang the good guy, perhaps I would have a different opinion. I'm not going to spend 50K or 50 years for defending someone else. Hell, the police aren't even obligated to protect you so why in the hell should I?

I guess the family should have been armed and taken their personal protection more seriously. Perhaps they will think twice before they open their mouth next time. :whistling:

:supergrin: I thought it, just wasn't in the mood to post it as clearly as you did and deal with the written lashes that would have likely followed.


Iím all for happy endings.

I also wonder, did the couple with the baby think things through before intervention and had a plan to address the manís aggression once it turned to them because they interfered?


The presence of the baby would have been a deal breaker for me to be able to stay out of it and call 911 (be a good witness and all that other good stuff); children and the very elderly or frail are a kink in my armor. Absent the child, my thoughts would mirror yours to the T!

.

Paul53
03-11-2012, 11:50
No one died and the ccw hold did not go to jail so I say it was handled perfectly.

It's easy to make statements not having been there. The CCW customer deserves kudos. I'd like to hear from him! Did he even have a clean shot or was there a chance he might have been shooting into a building, crowd, etc beyond the crud with the knife. I'm reserving my judgement as to how he should have, or how I would have handled the situation until I know more. But that's just me.:supergrin:

Situation resolved with minimum violence/injuries. Could you hope for a better outcome?

Misty02
03-11-2012, 11:57
It's easy to make statements not having been there. The CCW customer deserves kudos. I'd like to hear from him! Did he even have a clean shot or was there a chance he might have been shooting into a building, crowd, etc beyond the crud with the knife. I'm reserving my judgement as to how he should have, or how I would have handled the situation until I know more. But that's just me.:supergrin:

The heading and body of the article state “pulls gun” not “shot” or “fired” :)

ETA: In my opinion, he handled it well. The couple with the baby? Perhaps not so much.

.

coqui33
03-11-2012, 12:22
My gun is to protect me. Not anyone else. Whatever happens that doesn't happen to me isn't my problem and I'm not going to make it so. If we didn't have a society and legal system that was so eager to hang the good guy, perhaps I would have a different opinion. I'm not going to spend 50K or 50 years for defending someone else. Hell, the police aren't even obligated to protect you so why in the hell should I?
I agree completely. I addition to the risk of losing your life, liberty, and property, you will likely be villified in the media and internet as a "wannabe".

My wife and I went through our local sheriff's citizens' academy a few years ago, and they asked if we would be interested in joining a citizens' auxiliary program or, at least participating in our neighborhood watch. We declined. Anyone who tries to help deter crime nowadays becomes the target of young thugs--both by physical assault and vandalism. Like you, we choose to defend only ourselves and our home. In today's crime-coddling, self-defense-hostile culture, our neighbors had better take care of themselves. A recent incident in a nearby town involving self-defense by a neighborhood watch volunteer has confirmed our decision a hundredfold. Try to help and you will be publicly condemned as a "wannabe".

Schrag4
03-11-2012, 15:32
My gun is to protect me. Not anyone else. Whatever happens that doesn't happen to me isn't my problem and I'm not going to make it so.

If we didn't have a society and legal system that was so eager to hang the good guy, perhaps I would have a different opinion. I'm not going to spend 50K or 50 years for defending someone else. Hell, the police aren't even obligated to protect you so why in the hell should I?

I guess the family should have been armed and taken their personal protection more seriously. Perhaps they will think twice before they open their mouth next time. :whistling:

I agree completely. I addition to the risk of losing your life, liberty, and property, you will likely be villified in the media and internet as a "wannabe".

My wife and I went through our local sheriff's citizens' academy a few years ago, and they asked if we would be interested in joining a citizens' auxiliary program or, at least participating in our neighborhood watch. We declined. Anyone who tries to help deter crime nowadays becomes the target of young thugs--both by physical assault and vandalism. Like you, we choose to defend only ourselves and our home. In today's crime-coddling, self-defense-hostile culture, our neighbors had better take care of themselves. A recent incident in a nearby town involving self-defense by a neighborhood watch volunteer has confirmed our decision a hundredfold. Try to help and you will be publicly condemned as a "wannabe".

Is it really that black-and-white for you guys? Nobody's suggesting you roam the streets shooting kids that are from out of town. You seriously wouldn't help out an unarmed couple with an infant against a guy with a knife?

Yes, there have been some incidents where the good guy gets put in prison, but in what universe do you see that happening here, even if he had opened fire? Every situation is different. I just can't see how you can claim you'd never help anyone else out. Just my 0.02

xmanhockey7
03-11-2012, 15:44
Is it really that black-and-white for you guys? Nobody's suggesting you roam the streets shooting kids that are from out of town. You seriously wouldn't help out an unarmed couple with an infant against a guy with a knife?

Yes, there have been some incidents where the good guy gets put in prison, but in what universe do you see that happening here, even if he had opened fire? Every situation is different. I just can't see how you can claim you'd never help anyone else out. Just my 0.02

I agree. When you get kids involved like that I think I'd help. I'd probably have a problem with myself seeing an innocent victim like a baby. Same thing if it's a potential rape. I have a good friend who was rapped and seeing what it's done to her I would have issues sitting idly by.

Misty02
03-11-2012, 16:44
Is it really that black-and-white for you guys? Nobody's suggesting you roam the streets shooting kids that are from out of town. You seriously wouldn't help out an unarmed couple with an infant against a guy with a knife?

Yes, there have been some incidents where the good guy gets put in prison, but in what universe do you see that happening here, even if he had opened fire? Every situation is different. I just can't see how you can claim you'd never help anyone else out. Just my 0.02

Some people have learned the hard way that no good deed goes unpunished. They may still fall in the same trap again, but theyíre likely to be a lot more careful and weigh the pros and cons with a little more scrutiny.

I would like to ask you though, had you been in the same situation and been left with no choice but to take that shot, would you have held no resentment (at least a little bit) toward the couple for putting you in that position to start with?

People are responsible for their own safety. A couple with a baby that takes it upon themselves to intervene in what is possibly a crime in progress should be viewed as reckless and negligent in my book. What logical mind places the safety of a stranger in a vehicle (who can likely quickly drive off) over the safety of their own child?

Are you ok with living, for the rest of your life, with the knowledge that you took a life to protect reckless negligent individuals that brought the entire situation upon themselves? That is assuming there are no legal repercussions from the act itself, otherwise you can add the mental, emotional and financial distress of your own family.

.

B1rd
03-11-2012, 17:00
In the comments section the guy with the baby said they said NOTHING. The guy just came to them next.

Schrag4
03-11-2012, 17:11
Some people have learned the hard way that no good deed goes unpunished. They may still fall in the same trap again, but theyíre likely to be a lot more careful and weigh the pros and cons with a little more scrutiny.

I would like to ask you though, had you been in the same situation and been left with no choice but to take that shot, would you have held no resentment (at least a little bit) toward the couple for putting you in that position to start with?

People are responsible for their own safety. A couple with a baby that takes it upon themselves to intervene in what is possibly a crime in progress should be viewed as reckless and negligent in my book. What logical mind places the safety of a stranger in a vehicle (who can likely quickly drive off) over the safety of their own child?

Are you ok with living, for the rest of your life, with the knowledge that you took a life to protect reckless negligent individuals that brought the entire situation upon themselves? That is assuming there are no legal repercussions from the act itself, otherwise you can add the mental, emotional and financial distress of your own family.

.

So basically since they tried to help someone else out without a decent plan first, you think they deserve to be hacked and slashed to death? I'm guessing the whole thing went down fairly quickly and they didn't have time to think about what might happen - they just saw someone being assaulted and decided to do something.

You ask if I would be OK living for the rest of my life with the knowledge that I killed someone who was going after an infant with a knife? Honestly, I don't know how I'd feel, but I doubt I'd be as distraught about it as you suggest.

Let me turn it around. Had you been the one with the CCW, would you have watched as this guy laid into them with a knife? I'd reckon I'd have a harder time living with the image of a family with an infant getting slaughtered, especially if I could have stopped it.

Again, I realize people who help their fellow citizen get burned, but do you really think this scenario would have yielded the same negative results for guy with the CCW, even if he had opened fire?

Or to put it another way...just what line would a guy with a knife have to cross before you'll intervene? If he's at some public place that caters to children and you happen to be in the area with him, just how many children would he have to carve up before you'll intervene?

Misty02
03-11-2012, 17:23
In the comments section the guy with the baby said they said NOTHING. The guy just came to them next.

Thank you for pointing that out, B1rd. I hadnít read it. It seems they did nothing to invite trouble upon themselves. They just need to practice a quicker retreat; mom jumps in the back with baby as she attempts to strap him in while dad drives off. Leave stroller and all else behind, itís replaceable.

.

Misty02
03-11-2012, 17:41
So basically since they tried to help someone else out without a decent plan first, you think they deserve to be hacked and slashed to death? I'm guessing the whole thing went down fairly quickly and they didn't have time to think about what might happen - they just saw someone being assaulted and decided to do something.

You ask if I would be OK living for the rest of my life with the knowledge that I killed someone who was going after an infant with a knife? Honestly, I don't know how I'd feel, but I doubt I'd be as distraught about it as you suggest.

Let me turn it around. Had you been the one with the CCW, would you have watched as this guy laid into them with a knife? I'd reckon I'd have a harder time living with the image of a family with an infant getting slaughtered, especially if I could have stopped it.

Again, I realize people who help their fellow citizen get burned, but do you really think this scenario would have yielded the same negative results for guy with the CCW, even if he had opened fire?

Or to put it another way...just what line would a guy with a knife have to cross before you'll intervene? If he's at some public place that caters to children and you happen to be in the area with him, just how many children would he have to carve up before you'll intervene?

No, that is not what I stated. What Iím saying is, be responsible for your safety and more importantly, that of your family first. Intervention without thought is reckless; you could end up putting yourself and others at greater risk.

As the story was presented, the only reason I would have intervened would have been because of the baby. He/she had no fault and although not my responsibility I would have felt an obligation to find a way to protect that child. One action has nothing to do with the other, I would have helped but Iím not so sure I would have forgiven the parents for what I felt I had to do. Too many variables on that one to know for certain what I would have felt toward them.

Your question on what I would have likely done leads me to believe you didnít read my previous post. Which is ok, I donít always read all posts before commenting either. :)

BTW, if one of my grandchildren had been with me, then even another child in peril would not have resulted in action on my part. My obligation to my family is second to nothing.

Had it been the couple alone, I would have called 911 for help. Depending on the situation I might have stayed and observed from a safe distance (far away) or would have driven off and provided my number to be contacted later if necessary for what little I actually saw.
.

Dexters
03-11-2012, 18:28
Pepper Spray.

If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

LongGoneDays
03-11-2012, 18:44
Sounds like the couple with the infant need to get their priorities straight. If you want to play super hero, do it without the kid in tow and ARM YOURSELF.

RedsoxFan4Lyfe
03-11-2012, 18:46
I wouldn't usually get involved. I have seen many situations where I could have got in involved and just held back and watched or called 911.

However, if a man is advancing on a woman and child, especially an infant, I will not stand idle and be a "good witness" alone. Thankfully in the state of Florida I would be legally justified in doing anything it took to stop said man, including the use of lethal force.

I couldn't live with myself as a person, a man or a parent myself if I just stood by and watched a woman and defenseless infant get stabbed to death by some lunatic with a knife.

I too would have given him a chance to drop the weapon. Shooting a man to death is not something I really ever want to have to do, BUT if it's between him and me, or some poor lady and an INFANT. I will shoot him until he is down and no longer a threat. If he dies, that is tragic, but he made my choice for me when made the choice to be a violent man with a lethal weapon.

Anyone who says that they would only protect themselves. Period, and would stand by and do nothing at all, because it's not them should be ashamed of themselves.

To do nothing is the same as doing everything in that situation.

RedsoxFan4Lyfe
03-11-2012, 18:48
Pepper Spray.

If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

Well OC spray is a nice option to have. In my opinion though it is not adequate against a knife. A knife is a lethal weapon. Period. It's as lethal as a gun, if not more so at close range.
Would you OC spray someone with a gun? I would surely hope not. The same goes for a knife.

If a knife or gun has already been brought into play, the time for NON lethal defense has passed.

lycan
03-12-2012, 15:26
did not attach quote.

lycan
03-12-2012, 15:33
Not to dogpile on you, cuz, but you're the one with the avatar that appears to be you pointing your pistol at all of us. Who's the BAMF Internet Rambo? :tongueout:

good point Porter Rockwell.....

Misty02
03-12-2012, 16:03
Pepper Spray.

If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.


Pepper spray to deal with a violent attacker with a knife? :wow:

No offense, but I think hammering that nail with a wet noodle is not all that sensible. If youíre facing a nail, by all means, have a hammer.

.

Dexters
03-12-2012, 16:12
Pepper spray to deal with a violent attacker with a knife? :wow:

No offense, but I think hammering that nail with a wet noodle is not all that sensible. If youíre facing a nail, by all means, have a hammer.

.

Seriously,
You must evaluate each situation individually.

In this case the person with the gun was not immediately threatened by the person with the knife - the couple with the child was.

The person with the gun told the person with the knife 7 times to put it down.

You tell me - if the person with the gun also had pepper spray; wouldn't they have the time to evaluate which would be the appropriate response?

Are you also suggesting that the police should not have pepper spray and a tazer because they are only a wet noodle against a knife when the use of pepper spray or a tazer might be appropriate and also keep everyone involved alive?

Misty02
03-12-2012, 16:53
Seriously,
You must evaluate each situation individually.

In this case the person with the gun was not immediately threatened by the person with the knife - the couple with the child was.

The person with the gun told the person with the knife 7 times to put it down.

You tell me - if the person with the gun also had pepper spray; wouldn't they have the time to evaluate which would be the appropriate response?

Are you also suggesting that the police should not have pepper spray and a tazer because they are only a wet noodle against a knife when the use of pepper spray or a tazer might be appropriate and also keep everyone involved alive?

The person with the gun was using it in defense of the couple with the child, protecting the life of others is permissible in my jurisdiction and yours. It doesnít mean that I will do it, it just means that it is legal if I elect to.

A person with a knife would have to be very far away from me (or whomever Iím trying to protect) for me to repeat it 3 times, let alone 7. We do some practice self-defense at home with the boys (they are BIG boys) they can close a 15-20 foot gap in the blink of an eye.

Iím assuming the person with the knife was a lot closer to the couple with the baby than to the guy with the firearm. His goal was to protect them. Pepper spray is not a long range weapon. My sister used her pepper spray once; a guy followed her to her car and tried to grab the door (no clue why she didnít return to where there were people). Letís just say she was standing in the wrong place when she sprayed him. The wind blew lots of it toward her and from what I heard, it was pretty bad.

Keep in mind that officers have a duty to follow and apprehend, we donít. They use other alternatives because their goal is to search and capture. Ours (at least mine) is to go away and confront when we are left with absolutely no other choice. One thing is to use pepper spray on a drunk that is following and harassing you, quite another on someone with a knife that was violently attempting to break a car window to get to the driver minutes before.

Ask a few police officers how willing they would be to use either pepper spray or a tazer if they are alone with no backup and someone with a knife is charging at them. Now if they have back-up, one can attempt to tazer or spray the criminal while the other is ready to draw if it becomes necessary.

BTW, Iím 50 years old and have been in more than a few tight spots in my life, not once have I used either a firearm or pepper spray on another. The way I see it, nearly any situation where pepper spray would be appropriate for me to use; I would try to talk my way out of it instead.

.

Dexters
03-12-2012, 17:14
The person with the gun was using it in defense of the couple with the child, protecting the life of others is permissible in my jurisdiction and yours. It doesn’t mean that I will do it, it just means that it is legal if I elect to.

A person with a knife would have to be very far away from me (or whomever I’m trying to protect) for me to repeat it 3 times, let alone 7. We do some practice self-defense at home with the boys (they are BIG boys) they can close a 15-20 foot gap in the blink of an eye.

I’m assuming the person with the knife was a lot closer to the couple with the baby than to the guy with the firearm. His goal was to protect them. Pepper spray is not a long range weapon. My sister used her pepper spray once; a guy followed her to her car and tried to grab the door (no clue why she didn’t return to where there were people). Let’s just say she was standing in the wrong place when she sprayed him. The wind blew lots of it toward her and from what I heard, it was pretty bad.

Keep in mind that officers have a duty to follow and apprehend, we don’t. They use other alternatives because their goal is to search and capture. Ours (at least mine) is to go away and confront when we are left with absolutely no other choice. One thing is to use pepper spray on a drunk that is following and harassing you, quite another on someone with a knife that was violently attempting to break a car window to get to the driver minutes before.

Ask a few police officers how willing they would be to use either pepper spray or a tazer if they are alone with no backup and someone with a knife is charging at them. Now if they have back-up, one can attempt to tazer or spray the criminal while the other is ready to draw if it becomes necessary.

BTW, I’m 50 years old and have been in more than a few tight spots in my life, not once have I used either a firearm or pepper spray on another. The way I see it, nearly any situation where pepper spray would be appropriate for me to use; I would try to talk my way out of it instead.

.

A lot of words that don't answer my questions.

I'm guessing you didn't think for yourself when you first responded to my post.

Now that you have thought for yourself, you see that pepper spray is a good option to have. But, you don't want to admit it.

Misty02
03-12-2012, 17:20
A lot of words that don't answer my questions.

I'm guessing you didn't think for yourself when you first responded to my post.

Now that you have thought for yourself, you see that pepper spray is a good option to have. But, you don't want to admit it.

Perception is reality. :)

.

Dexters
03-12-2012, 17:27
Perception is reality. :)

.

Thank you

polishnightmare
03-12-2012, 21:31
Remember people evil will flurish where good men do nothing. Also as Christ said paraphrase "Those that do for the least of us have done for me."

My gun is to protect me. Not anyone else. Whatever happens that doesn't happen to me isn't my problem and I'm not going to make it so.

If we didn't have a society and legal system that was so eager to hang the good guy, perhaps I would have a different opinion. I'm not going to spend 50K or 50 years for defending someone else. Hell, the police aren't even obligated to protect you so why in the hell should I?

I guess the family should have been armed and taken their personal protection more seriously. Perhaps they will think twice before they open their mouth next time. :whistling:

steveksux
03-12-2012, 22:38
Pepper Spray.

If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.If someone is coming after a couple holding an infant with a knife, pepper spray is the WRONG tool for the job. Even cops won't attempt to use pepper spray on someone armed with a knife unless there's another officer with a gun trained on him in case the pepper spray doesn't work.

Why not just try to talk the guy out of it while you're at it instead of pepper spray? :tongueout:

Randy

Misty02
03-13-2012, 05:29
Thank you

Youíre very welcome. :supergrin: (but once more, you misinterpreted my words)

:wavey:
.

Misty02
03-13-2012, 05:47
If someone is coming after a couple holding an infant with a knife, pepper spray is the WRONG tool for the job. Even cops won't attempt to use pepper spray on someone armed with a knife unless there's another officer with a gun trained on him in case the pepper spray doesn't work.

Why not just try to talk the guy out of it while you're at it instead of pepper spray? :tongueout:

Randy

At a distance, talking would be more effective. At the very least it has less of a chance of ticking him off and going through with his threat, plus, it engages his mind and might provide an opportunity for plan B.

There was a video posted not long ago, outside some fast food place, where a person coming out was met by several officers (including a K9). The individual was tazered, on the face if I recall correctly. The guy kept walking as if nothing, he just walked a tad slower while he pulled out the prongs. He had to be shot several times by the officers present.

Many donít understand that not every individual out there has the same reaction (or tolerance) to pain and discomfort.

Drunks, dogs and other less threatening things that could endanger you (depending on the circumstances), sure, use the spray. Someone with a knife or swinging a bat or other solid weapon at a closer distance, shoot until the threat stops.

I often hear that saying ďif all you have is a hammer, then everything seems like a nailĒ (or variations thereof). The funny thing is that hammers exist because there are in fact nails. It is in our best interest, and that of others, to know which tool is best for what job. Confuse them, or hesitate more than it is prudent, and it can cost someone their life (the wrong someone at that).

.

NDCent
03-13-2012, 06:03
Bang Bang, Bang... drop your weapon! :whistling:

xmanhockey7
03-13-2012, 06:44
Bang Bang, Bang... drop your weapon! :whistling:

That was actually mentioned at my CPL class.

Rumbler_G20
03-13-2012, 08:30
"There are Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves." Period. Never seen more evidence of the truth of that, in one place, than in this thread.

:dunno:

Unistat
03-13-2012, 08:51
Jambog

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407225

Ha! I beat you on this one TBO!

Dexters
03-13-2012, 10:22
If someone is coming after a couple holding an infant with a knife, pepper spray is the WRONG tool for the job. Even cops won't attempt to use pepper spray on someone armed with a knife unless there's another officer with a gun trained on him in case the pepper spray doesn't work.

Why not just try to talk the guy out of it while you're at it instead of pepper spray? :tongueout:

Randy

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride ...

Seriously,
You must evaluate each situation individually.

In this case the person with the gun was not immediately threatened by the person with the knife - the couple with the child was.

The person with the gun told the person with the knife 7 times to put it down.

You tell me - if the person with the gun also had pepper spray; wouldn't they have the time to evaluate which would be the appropriate response?

Are you also suggesting that the police should not have pepper spray and a tazer because they are only a wet noodle against a knife when the use of pepper spray or a tazer might be appropriate and also keep everyone involved alive?

Dexters
03-13-2012, 10:27
You’re very welcome. :supergrin: (but once more, you misinterpreted my words)

:wavey:
.

Or you didn't present them well.

And you still did not address my simple post.


As to perception being reality - that is only half of the saying - don't stop there - learn from great teachers.

Perception is reality; reality is an illusion:

A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering. – The Buddha

We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. – Kalu Rinpoche

You now know the whole phrase - not just forum perversion of it.

Wasatch
03-13-2012, 11:04
Argh...Carry Issues is a tomb! I'm going over to the GNG Lounge where it's fun!

S&WM&PAR15T&G34
03-13-2012, 14:02
Wow- what a wonderful world it would be without your mind set.


My gun is to protect me. Not anyone else. Whatever happens that doesn't happen to me isn't my problem and I'm not going to make it so.

If we didn't have a society and legal system that was so eager to hang the good guy, perhaps I would have a different opinion. I'm not going to spend 50K or 50 years for defending someone else. Hell, the police aren't even obligated to protect you so why in the hell should I?

I guess the family should have been armed and taken their personal protection more seriously. Perhaps they will think twice before they open their mouth next time. :whistling:

Wasatch
03-16-2012, 23:36
good point Porter Rockwell.....

Well played. :rofl:

HarleyGuy
03-17-2012, 00:28
Pepper Spray.

If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

delete