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Tiro Fijo
03-23-2012, 00:03
...

Here is the quote:
He would not discuss it, but Pat Whitaker, chief of operations at the State Attorney's Office in Sanford, said Thursday night that the case's key evidence has not yet been made public.
"There's just so much more to it that has not been disclosed," he said. "What you have is not the crucial evidence."



And when they do do you think the media will apologize? :upeyes: If the PD has a trump card the whole story will die faster than a seal pup in a school of Great White sharks.

This is merely another cause célèbre for the media & race baiters like Al "Tawana Brawley" Sharpton & Jesse Jackson. Where were these scumbags when Mumia Abu-Jamal & Leonard Peltier killed upright LEO's?

05DodgeDakota
03-23-2012, 00:13
And when they do do you think the media will apologize? :upeyes: If the PD has a trump card the whole story will die faster than a seal pup in a school of Great White sharks.

This is merely another cause célèbre for the media & race baiters like Al "Tawana Brawley" Sharpton & Jesse Jackson. Where were these scumbags when Mumia Abu-Jamal & Leonard Peltier killed upright LEO's?

Exactly, cause of the moment, a big sensationalist liberal media hype over something that happens more than most people realize. And then add in the race factor and theses idots can turn it into the Oakland riots of the early 90s. That and the fact that they now want to knee-jerk react to hurry and reanayalize my states weapon carry and use laws to look good for the voters.

RussP
03-23-2012, 04:55
It is open season on guns, ccw and gun owners................

You could write any article about guns and ccw and use the most hate filled words and no one would bat an eye right now.

The special interest groups, politicians and media are going for the gold.There is a thread now to discuss the ramifications this event will have... Trayvon Martin's Life One of Hundreds Ended by Concealed Carry Killers (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1410347).

Let's have this discussion there.

Bren
03-23-2012, 05:57
CNN first tells you that they will let you listen without saying what that racial slur is and play it once without isolating it (01:49 mark), then they replay just the 1.6 seconds 10 times over, but not before "tinting" the mind with the word you listening for (02:03 mark). Consider your sources and question the media.

BTW experts are in sync that it sounds like "F@#$ing PUNKS"

From having worked with samplers and loops a little - I'd say it doesn't sound like any word. When any sound is looped, it has rhythm and your mind works from there. That's why CNN's loop starts to sound like something when they repeat it over and over back to back. I doubt it was even a word or words - sounds like the standard noise from walking around with a microphone - you've heard it on COPS.

ATW525
03-23-2012, 07:59
Geraldo Rivera on Trayvon Martin shooting:

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2012/03/23/trayvon-martins-hoodie-and-george-zimmerman-share-blame/

If you dress like a hoodlum eventually some schmuck is going to take you at your word.

RenegadeGlocker
03-23-2012, 08:25
Which experts are those? I've listened to the following video a few times and I clearly hear an "oo" sound. It sounds like coons to me.

DIAGNOSTIC: George Zimmerman Clearly says "****ing Coons" Before Killing Trayvon Martin - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGuctYqCDvo)

Perhaps it's a difference of dialects. However Zimmerman clearly doesn't have a southern accent. Do people in the south pronounce it "poonks"?

That video is fake and has been debunked. You can get the actual 911 call from Sanford, PD. He says "AHs"

RenegadeGlocker
03-23-2012, 08:35
There is an article, possibly here, where it states the father said that originally; however, after they cleaned up the audio he stated that it was his son. Soon after there were other articles mentioning his son crying out for his life or something to that effect..

Impartial Eyewitness testimony clearly IDs the screamer as Zimmerman, and also as the recipient of the beat-down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g4yF3Xu-wg

FireForged
03-23-2012, 10:18
This is another perfect reason why I have always said that as a armed citizen, I would not chase purse snatchers, investigate odd happenings in dark alleys or confront suspicious people who are not a immediate danger to me. Call the Police?...sure. Follow/chase people? nope. I will not form any hard opinions about this block capt until a everything is released but its probably not something I would have elected to do.

Glocksanity
03-23-2012, 11:33
you just keep drinkin' the Kool-Aid their buddy lol

I am drinking the "mind your own business" kool-aid. Call the cops and let them do their job. Had Zimmerman done that, no death.

Misty02
03-23-2012, 14:38
Impartial Eyewitness testimony clearly IDs the screamer as Zimmerman, and also as the recipient of the beat-down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g4yF3Xu-wg

I read that one as well. Just stating what the dad had said based on another article.

Flintlocker
03-23-2012, 15:19
That video is fake and has been debunked. You can get the actual 911 call from Sanford, PD. He says "AHs"


That video is not fake. It's an excerpt from Zimmerman's call to the Sanford Police Department.

It starts at the 2:20 in the following video:

Trayvon Martin 911 Call [SHOCKING FULL] Murder Caught on Tape | Killed By George Zimmerman #1 - YouTube

Flintlocker
03-23-2012, 15:29
I read that one as well. Just stating what the dad had said based on another article.

To be specific, that would be Martin's dad who confirmed that it was not Trayvon's voice calling for help.

Tiro Fijo
03-23-2012, 16:23
That video is not fake. It's an excerpt from Zimmerman's call to the Sanford Police Department.

It starts at the 2:20 in the following video:...


I could only watch 33 secs. of your video as it is blatantly biased with cute photos of the deceased & family members crying. They fail to mention that this "kid" was 6'3" & 180 lbs. Eyewitness account puts the deceased ON TOP of the shooter & beating him. I doubt he was giving him CPR. :upeyes: Shooter has cuts and back of his shirt has wet grass stains.

Hello!! :wavey:

Flintlocker
03-23-2012, 17:16
I could only watch 33 secs. of your video as it is blatantly biased with cute photos of the deceased & family members crying. They fail to mention that this "kid" was 6'3" & 180 lbs. Eyewitness account puts the deceased ON TOP of the shooter & beating him. I doubt he was giving him CPR. :upeyes: Shooter has cuts and back of his shirt has wet grass stains.

Hello!! :wavey:

It's not my video however it was the first complete, unedited and un-redacted version of the police tapes I found on youtube. Many of the versions seem to have certain parts bleeped out.

If you want to listen to the original then it can be found here:

http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

I used this video to respond to a claim that an audio clip in question was fabricated, which it is clearly and demonstrably not.

As to his height & weight, I have not seen a specific report. If you have a link then please share it.

The facts appear to support witness 'John' and his statement that Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin on top of him. This, however, in no way answers who precipitated the situation and initiated physical contact.

kensteele
03-23-2012, 18:05
I could only watch 33 secs. of your video as it is blatantly biased with cute photos of the deceased & family members crying. They fail to mention that this "kid" was 6'3" & 180 lbs. Eyewitness account puts the deceased ON TOP of the shooter & beating him. I doubt he was giving him CPR. :upeyes: Shooter has cuts and back of his shirt has wet grass stains.

Hello!! :wavey:

LOL, the deceased gets taller and heavier every dozen posts or so. Amazing. Maybe you'll understand this: You f'd this up so badly he can be 6'9" 275 lbs not going to matter. Next time, handle your business.

kensteele
03-23-2012, 18:14
At this point, I have every faith and confidence in the "special prosecutor" appointed by the Governor.

PAGunner
03-23-2012, 18:49
It is a good lesson on what can happen when the spotlight/magnifying glass is turned on a person.

I think it's also a good lesson on situational awareness and avoiding confrontation when possible. This is definitely a grey area shooting if I've ever read of one. While IMO based on police response and what has become public information it sounds like it is technically a good shoot, but it's also clear that the shoot could have easily been avoided by Mr. Zimmerman.

What I believe happened based on the public information, Mr. Martin was PO'd Mr. Zimmerman was keeping tabs on him, Martin probably became hot headed and attacked Zimmerman, who then being on the ground getting beat down was truly in fear of his life (based on witness accounts) and shot Martin.

I believe Martin was attempting to track Martin's movement but at a distance, certainly not illegal and certainly not an action that should provoke an attack, it was not his smartest course of action. To me, this is the take home point from this shoot, don't play cop. If Mr. Martin is brought up on charges and subsequently found guilty, he has only his poor judgement (by tracking Martin) to blame although I believe it was technically a good shoot.

PAGunner
03-23-2012, 18:58
LOL, the deceased gets taller and heavier every dozen posts or so. Amazing. Maybe you'll understand this: You f'd this up so badly he can be 6'9" 275 lbs not going to matter. Next time, handle your business.

Size is severely over rated as being advantageous in a fight. A 5'9" well built 165-170lbs MMA fighter will eat your average 6'1 230lbs guy's lunch 99 out of 100 times.

I first bench pressed 405lbs at 18 years of age and had a background in amateur boxing. Mike Tyson turned pro at 18 years of age, with my point being a 17 year old "kid" is capable of doing some serious damage, especially to an out of shape 28 year old, which Zimmerman appears to be.

PAGunner
03-23-2012, 19:01
I am drinking the "mind your own business" kool-aid. Call the cops and let them do their job. Had Zimmerman done that, no death.

I agree with the bold and as I've said Zimmerman didn't make the best decisions, but it still doesn't mean it was murder.

If you believe in letting the police do their job, well the police believe it to be a good shoot and Zimmerman has yet to be charged. So we should let them do their job, correct?

ATW525
03-23-2012, 19:03
I believe Martin was attempting to track Martin's movement but at a distance, certainly not illegal and certainly not an action that should provoke an attack, it was not his smartest course of action. To me, this is the take home point from this shoot, don't play cop. If Mr. Martin is brought up on charges and subsequently found guilty, he has only his poor judgement (by tracking Martin) to blame although I believe it was technically a good shoot.

Ummm... you may want to check your names. :whistling:

RussP
03-23-2012, 19:06
I asked for links to this statement...Do a little digging on the Internet and you will see that the deceased was not the innocent little angel that the Leftist Press has made him out to be. Hopefully, this will all come out in the wash.How certain are you the information you found is for this Trayvon Martin? We had a link posted earlier in the thread for a different Trayvon Martin, a very different life style.

Please send me the links you have via PM.

ThanksNothing came of it.I could only watch 33 secs. of your video as it is blatantly biased with cute photos of the deceased & family members crying. They fail to mention that this "kid" was 6'3" & 180 lbs. Eyewitness account puts the deceased ON TOP of the shooter & beating him. I doubt he was giving him CPR. :upeyes: Shooter has cuts and back of his shirt has wet grass stains.

Hello!! :wavey:As to his height & weight, I have not seen a specific report. If you have a link then please share it.Good luck...:cool:

kensteele
03-23-2012, 19:07
The Zman atty is not very good IMO. Zman should get someone else. Maybe the NRA can help him out. This atty is probably more of a legal spokesperson for the time being more that anything else but I sure hope this guy doesn't represent Zman going forward. Not sure what everyone else's opinion. Everyone deserves legal counsel but I guess it doesn't have to be [good] legal counsel necessarily.

Edit: I think his name is Craig Sonner.

vkscott
03-23-2012, 19:59
LOL, the deceased gets taller and heavier every dozen posts or so. Amazing. Maybe you'll understand this: You f'd this up so badly he can be 6'9" 275 lbs not going to matter. Next time, handle your business.

I hope I link this correctly http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Post #408 has the police report that has Trayvon at 6 ft, 160 pounds.

ZombieKing
03-23-2012, 23:04
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

Here's a blog from Massad Ayoob. He says something very interesting:

"The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged."

First time I'm seeing this. Perhaps Mr.Ayoob has info the rest of us don't.

cowboy1964
03-23-2012, 23:23
That video is fake and has been debunked. You can get the actual 911 call from Sanford, PD. He says "AHs"

The 911 call also clearly shows the shooter pursuing the guy. "Stand your ground" goes out the window.

Z28ricer
03-24-2012, 00:42
The 911 call also clearly shows the shooter pursuing the guy. "Stand your ground" goes out the window.

THIS does not:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

High Altitude
03-24-2012, 01:13
Has to be 1st deg MURDER, he started it, he followed him, he didn't follow the 911 dispatchers orders, he is crazy, he is a racist, he was looking for trouble, he called 911 1 million times in 3 days, he had a gun, Trayvon was a kid with candy and a drink and would NEVER hurt a fly and the other guy was a man look at the pictures can't you see, this guy should get the death penalty no trial needed, we need to ban guns and change all the self defense laws, and lets not forget this guy is white blah, blah, blah............. oh and who cares what the law is and what the evidence in the case might or might not show this guy is automatically guilty. Any normal person would agree and if you don't agree you are a gun toting racist too.

Almost forget, lets fire every single LEO involved because since they haven't made an arrest they are a bunch of racist too covering this whole thing up.

:faint:

If this case goes to trial (which I believe it will) it will be interesting to see what other evidence is presented that is not already in the public eye.

I also wonder, since Zimmerman had cuts/bleeding to the back of his head, if Trayvon hit him from behind with something and the police recovered some kind of instrument used to do that.

Or if Trayvon had marks on him from being hit etc...

Maybe another eyewitness nobody knows about?

MinnesnowtaWild
03-24-2012, 01:44
Has to be 1st deg MURDER, he started it, he followed him, he didn't follow the 911 dispatchers orders, he is crazy, he is a racist, he was looking for trouble, he called 911 1 million times in 3 days, he had a gun, Trayvon was a kid with candy and a drink and would NEVER hurt a fly and the other guy was a man look at the pictures can't you see, this guy should get the death penalty no trial needed, we need to ban guns and change all the self defense laws, and lets not forget this guy is white blah, blah, blah............. oh and who cares what the law is and what the evidence in the case might or might not show this guy is automatically guilty. Any normal person would agree and if you don't agree you are a gun toting racist too.

Almost forget, lets fire every single LEO involved because since they haven't made an arrest they are a bunch of racist too covering this whole thing up.

:faint:

If this case goes to trial (which I believe it will) it will be interesting to see what other evidence is presented that is not already in the public eye.

I also wonder, since Zimmerman had cuts/bleeding to the back of his head, if Trayvon hit him from behind with something and the police recovered some kind of instrument used to do that.

Or if Trayvon had marks on him from being hit etc...

Maybe another eyewitness nobody knows about?

This post is scary because it's EXACTLY what many people are saying.

My question is with all the pressure that the federal government, local government, and a lot of the American public bearing down on the department to charge Zimmerman don't you think they would if they thought there was at least a halfway decent case against him? There is obviously something missing in this case that the media isn't feeding everyone. For the police to use stand your ground as a scapegoat is pretty weak though, since it doesn't even seem to apply here.

Flintlocker
03-24-2012, 02:26
This post is scary because it's EXACTLY what many people are saying.

My question is with all the pressure that the federal government, local government, and a lot of the American public bearing down on the department to charge Zimmerman don't you think they would if they thought there was at least a halfway decent case against him? There is obviously something missing in this case that the media isn't feeding everyone. For the police to use stand your ground as a scapegoat is pretty weak though, since it doesn't even seem to apply here.

The determination to arrest or not arrest Zimmerman came down to one man, Bill Lee, the police chief. With a homicide committed under such murky circumstances there are only two conclusions to draw: either his interpretation of the "stand your ground" law is flawed or the law itself is flawed. Even the author of the law suggested that some tweaking might be needed.

Dukeboy01
03-24-2012, 05:06
My 12 year- old daughter takes Tae Kwon Do. Her school has a black belt creed that her instructor has the kids recite at the beginning of each class.

The second to last line of the creed reads "I will use common sense before self- defense and will never be abusive or offensive."

It seems to me that those words should be printed on the back of every concealed carry permit issued across the country. It would go a long way to keeping tragedies like this from happening.

Did Zimmerman use common sense in this situation? Clearly not. Despite the request/ order/ suggestion/ however- you- want- to- name the calltaker's statement that he didn't need to keep following Martin, he let his ego get ahead of him and did so anyway.

Even without the calltaker's admonishment, leaving the protection of his vehicle to follow an unknown subject alone in the dark was a bonehead move. Clearly, he lacks common sense.

Was he abusive or offensive? Quite possibly. This part of the incident is quite murky, when it comes to who confronted who and who hit who first. Given the fact that he was going to great lengths to corral a kid who, at the time he was observing him, was at most guilty of trespassing in Zimmerman's mind, then it is quite reasonable to deduce that Zimmerman is exactly the kind of jerk who would confront another person over something (relatively) minor. (Turns out Martin wasn't even trespassing, but Zimmerman thought that he might be.)

I dare say that all of us would consider it abusive and or offensive to be followed by a strange car and then asked to explain ourselves to another person not identified as a legitimate authority figure. Heck, a lot of you consider it abusive to be asked to explain yourselves to legitimate authority figures, but, generally speaking, most of us are willing to tolerate a little minor intrusion by the people we charge with maintaining the rule of law amongst us occasionally to ensure that public order and peace is maintained.

Zimmerman's controversial statement about "A****** always get away" or whatever also points to him being an abusive person, especially since the "crime" that the suspect was going to get away with was trespassing. Yeah, there had been some acts of vandalism as well, but Zimmerman hadn't seen Martin committing any of those. In his mind, all he had was trespassing.

Now we have a circus. Our idiot president has fanned the flames by making another "the cops behaved stupidly" pronouncement with his unhelpful statement that if he had a son, the kid would look like Martin. The race baiters and anti- gunners are out in force and the reason is ultimately because one fool, Zimmerman, never learned the lesson that my twelve year- old receives twice a week.

series1811
03-24-2012, 05:12
Here's a crazy thought: Why don't we wait until the official investigation is done, and see what the final determination is on what happened, before we jump to any conclusions?

See, I told you it was crazy. :)

Fred Hansen
03-24-2012, 06:04
Here's a crazy thought: Why don't we wait until the official investigation is done, and see what the final determination is on what happened, before we jump to any conclusions?

See, I told you it was crazy. :):wow: :shocked: :faint: *It's probably racist too.*

:rofl:

Misty02
03-24-2012, 07:02
To be specific, that would be Martin's dad who confirmed that it was not Trayvon's voice calling for help.

http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/03/21/trayvon-martin-tracy-martin-sybrina-fulton-father-mother-justice-will-be-served/


Sybrina says he believes that voice on the line is her son, telling Anderson, “I believe that's Trayvon Martin, that's my baby's voice. Every mother knows their child, and that's his voice. “

“He was afraid for his life,” says his father, “He saw his death coming. He saw his death coming. The screams got more frantic.”



Here at 3:11 his father (not an article, but his actual comment) he states it is his son, that he is positive it is his son's voice.

Ok, I realize I didn't post the link and can't find the video now. It is an interview with Anderson Cooper where the dad specifically mentions it is his son's voice.

Found it, at 3:46 "I'm positive that's my son's voice"
Trayvon Martin's father on the 911 tapes - YouTube
.

Bruce M
03-24-2012, 07:28
The determination to arrest or not arrest Zimmerman came down to one man, Bill Lee, the police chief. .... No - not even close. If there was not overwhelming probable cause determined soon in the investigation, the investigators probably presented what they had to the State Attorney's Office. Obviously they kept him advised of what was going on but the decision to arrest would not rest with the Chief unless he made the arrest himself.



Here's a crazy thought: Why don't we wait until the official investigation is done, and see what the final determination is on what happened, before we jump to any conclusions?

See, I told you it was crazy. :) Yes that is really crazy.

garebel
03-24-2012, 07:48
Here's a crazy thought: Why don't we wait until the official investigation is done, and see what the final determination is on what happened, before we jump to any conclusions?

See, I told you it was crazy. :)

Makes perfect sense to me though.

NMGlocker
03-24-2012, 08:12
Two words... Duke Lacrosse.

AZLawDawg
03-24-2012, 08:21
LOL, the deceased gets taller and heavier every dozen posts or so. Amazing. Maybe you'll understand this: You f'd this up so badly he can be 6'9" 275 lbs not going to matter. Next time, handle your business.

It's a new day, I think the kid's up to 6'10" 300.

redbaron007
03-24-2012, 08:28
Here's a crazy thought: Why don't we wait until the official investigation is done, and see what the final determination is on what happened, before we jump to any conclusions?

See, I told you it was crazy. :)

That's too rational!! All the Geraldo Rivera's are here on GT with all the official media evidence. :rofl:

:wavey:

red

ATW525
03-24-2012, 08:41
UPDATE! George Zimmerman's lawyer is ignorant:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman

SCmasterblaster
03-24-2012, 08:49
I have seen in your 24 Mar edition that your editorial cartoon, "He Has a Dream," puts the blame for the terrible FL shooting death on the NRA. Well no one knows just why the man shot the unarmed black youth to death, but the cartoon chooses to assume that the killing was done by an NRA extremist "Guns for all!"

Well let us imagine for a moment how such a shooting could have gone down. The black youth, wearing the typical gang attire, confronts the neighborhood watch guard in a darkish alley. The gangster has his right hand in his pocket, attempting to simulate a handgun. This is all the guard sees in the dim light, so he assumes that he is about to be shot. The guard draws his handgun and shoots, not willing to wait and see if it is really a gun in the youth's pocket. The neighborhood in which they stand is filled with gangster shootings and other crimes, and the guard is naturally afraid. Knowing all of the surrounding facts, who could blame him?

No, but it is far easier to jump to conclusions and blame guns and the NRA. Well I am a gun-carrying NRA member here in the 14th state, and I am highly offended by the editorial cartoon.

pipedreams
03-24-2012, 08:55
Found this interesting.

"All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911 (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4). Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details (http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html) to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.

The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son."

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin

redbaron007
03-24-2012, 08:56
UPDATE! George Zimmerman's lawyer is a moron:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Actually, he may be very smart. What a lawyer says in public doesn't mean squat. Ever heard of a Red Herring? It could be part of their strategy. Don't know till charges and the trial. Attorneys are known for saying things that don't make sense in public.

:wavery:

red

ATW525
03-24-2012, 09:13
Actually, he may be very smart. What a lawyer says in public doesn't mean squat. Ever heard of a Red Herring? It could be part of their strategy. Don't know till charges and the trial. Attorneys are known for saying things that don't make sense in public.

:wavery:

red

I don't know... I think if I was George Zimmerman's position and my lawyer went and demonstrated his ignorance on the difference between "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" in the national press... well, let's just say I'd defecate a brick.

vkscott
03-24-2012, 09:25
For the life of me, I cannot understand why the president would make a reference to "if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon". That statement makes no sense to me. Was he making a racial reference or is he saying Trayvon favors him as a child? It makes no sense unless he is trying to put "White House" pressure on those investigating the incident. Anyone else have any theories? Has anyone in the press asked the president what was meant by that statement? It just baffles me.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 09:31
I don't know... I think if I was George Zimmerman's position and my lawyer went and demonstrated his ignorance on the difference between "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" in the national press... well, let's just say I'd defecate a brick.

I would too. Presumably, based on some articles, Zimmerman was studying law and was interested in law enforcement. It is likely he knows the statement is incorrect.

A question that I don’t believe anyone answered for me earlier: Does a person have a right to a court appointed attorney if they haven’t been charged with a crime? If not, Zimmerman’s may be stuck with what he can afford.


.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 09:33
For the life of me, I cannot understand why the president would make a reference to "if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon". That statement makes no sense to me. Was he making a racial reference or is he saying Trayvon favors him as a child? It makes no sense unless he is trying to put "White House" pressure on those investigating the incident. Anyone else have any theories? Has anyone in the press asked the president what was meant by that statement? It just baffles me.

As I mentioned in another thread, at least he didn’t say (this time) the police acted stupidly. Whether or not it is implied is up to the interpretation of the listener.

.

hyperstyx
03-24-2012, 09:34
...and still no probable cause has been established to substantiate the arrest of Zimmerman under Fl statutes despite the intense investigative efforts of the
Fl locals, the State Attorney and FDLE. Not to mention the assistance of the Feds. THERE ARE RULE OF LAW REASONS FOR THIS.

So the hot social issue potato is handed to the Grand Jury to determine if PC exists. Given the early and increasing uproar it could have been done much sooner. I'll guess the odds of the GJ returning an indictment as low since the GJ of 18 "peers" are neither investigators nor real familiar with the law...AND, with the SA in control of all things presented, one has to wonder how enthusiastic the SA's office will be to get a return since they will have to prosecute a case in which THEY could not establish PC. All IMO!

The most promising prosecution odds reside with this going Fed under deprivation of civil rights. Criminal prosecution-maybe, IDK. Civil prosecution with the lower standard-more likely.

Interesting case with a lot of emotion that will continue to influence the play.

Reading the several threads reminds me of the amusement and irritation generated by blurted comments from court flies back in the day.

RussP
03-24-2012, 09:36
UPDATE! George Zimmerman's lawyer is a moron:"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmermanhttp://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.htmlNo, just ignorant.

RussP
03-24-2012, 09:43
Actually, he may be very smart. What a lawyer says in public doesn't mean squat. Ever heard of a Red Herring? It could be part of their strategy. Don't know till charges and the trial. Attorneys are known for saying things that don't make sense in public.

:wavery:

redGood point, but it might be like testing the temperature of the Amazon with your arm in the middle of a school of piranhas...

Sam Spade
03-24-2012, 09:43
A question that I don’t believe anyone answered for me earlier: Does a person have a right to a court appointed attorney if they haven’t been charged with a crime? If not, Zimmerman’s may be stuck with what he can afford.


.

No.

(Ginger and Mary Ann added to make character limit.)

ATW525
03-24-2012, 09:43
No, just ignorant.

You're right. I went back and edited my post, as calling him a moron was probably a bit harsh.

ATW525
03-24-2012, 09:48
For the life of me, I cannot understand why the president would make a reference to "if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon". That statement makes no sense to me. Was he making a racial reference or is he saying Trayvon favors him as a child? It makes no sense unless he is trying to put "White House" pressure on those investigating the incident. Anyone else have any theories? Has anyone in the press asked the president what was meant by that statement? It just baffles me.

I took it to mean that he believes that Trayvon appears to be a typical teenager, like he'd imagine his own son could look like if he had one.

dosei
03-24-2012, 09:54
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

Here's a blog from Massad Ayoob. He says something very interesting:

"The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged."

First time I'm seeing this. Perhaps Mr.Ayoob has info the rest of us don't.


No...the police reported that the gun's condition was a full magazine, chamber empty. This was mentioned/discussed earlier.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-students-20120319_1_warning-shot-college-students-single-shell-casing

vkscott
03-24-2012, 09:55
I took it to mean that he believes that Trayvon appears to be a typical teenager, like he'd imagine his own son could look like if he had one.

I can understand that, I just don't think it was appropriate to make such a statement. IMO it made some people attach a "personal" connection to the POTUS. Again, IMO.

Sam Spade
03-24-2012, 09:59
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/

hallnh727
03-24-2012, 12:03
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Witness gives different side of the story

redbaron007
03-24-2012, 12:31
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Witness gives different side of the story

It does seem to paint a different picture. Gives evidence as to why the police didn't make an arrest at first. It will be interesting to see what other facts come out. I'm sure this witness will be shredded and discredited by those who believe differently.

:wavey:

red

SCmasterblaster
03-24-2012, 12:41
Let's wait to hear the guard's story. For all we know, he really thought that he saw a firearm.

Bruce M
03-24-2012, 12:52
...

The most promising prosecution odds reside with this going Fed under deprivation of civil rights. Criminal prosecution-maybe, IDK. Civil prosecution with the lower standard-more likely.

...

Is there a Federal statute that applies to this case? Was Zimmerman acting under the color or law or is there a different civil rights statute somewhere in there that covers private citizens not acting under the power, authority or auspices of a government?

ATW525
03-24-2012, 13:16
Is there a Federal statute that applies to this case? Was Zimmerman acting under the color or law or is there a different civil rights statute somewhere in there that covers private citizens not acting under the power, authority or auspices of a government?

It seems there was a recent expansion to the Federal Hate Crimes statute that allows for the Feds to prosecute certain types of violent hate crimes. I'm not sure they're going to have much luck with that angel though. The only "evidence" for a hate crime is that the two people involved were of different races, and a comment heard on a tape that may or may not have included a racial epithet (and may not have even been a comment at all).

jdavionic
03-24-2012, 13:19
Interesting development. It paints a slightly different picture than the initial story -

According to the witness -
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

hyperstyx
03-24-2012, 13:44
Is there a Federal statute that applies to this case? Was Zimmerman acting under the color or law or is there a different civil rights statute somewhere in there that covers private citizens not acting under the power, authority or auspices of a government?


42 USC Sec 1983 holds "any person...". It was used against the KKK as a civil recourse when LE officials did not enforce the law. I am guessing, but the FBI Civil Rights Division is involved in the investigation as something more than window dressing.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 14:10
http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-scott/email-the-governor/ (http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-scott/email-the-governor/)

The above is a link where we can send an email to Governor Scott. It was posted in another forum I participate in. I’ve sent my email as others have. Please send yours, he is under enormous pressure at the moment and needs to hear from all sides if he is to make a fair decision.

Since Florida has been cited as the basis for the “stand your ground” laws in other states, those that email Governor Scott, who are not in Florida, may wish to include some reference as to why this is important to you. Use your own words; this is too personal to have canned wording emails.

I’ve posted this in another thread already.


Subject: Stand your ground laws

Dear Governor Scott:

I cannot even begin to imagine the pressure you must be under at the moment. I am the mother of three; one of them has made me a grandmother three times. As Trayvon’s parents, I too would be devastated and wanting justice for the death of my child.

While I can see things from their point of view and that of a community affected by the loss of a young man, we have to remember that good law abiding citizens die every day when they shouldn’t have to. They are guilty of nothing more than being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Many die at the hand of criminals; others die in accidents (vehicular and other types).

As much as you may want to make citizens feel protected and safe, it is not something you or even the police can deliver; none of you can be in all places at once to prevent crime or save someone’s life. Each and every one of us is responsible for our safety and that of our family; please make no revisions that would place our ability to do so in jeopardy.

Even if you were able to remove all firearms from the state of Florida and do away with stand your ground laws, it would not result in anyone being safer; it would just result in a greater segment of the population being vulnerable and at risk. People were killing people long before firearms were invented, its existence helps the smaller, weaker and infirm not fall prey to stronger and determined criminals.

Any feeling of being protected or safe that we, ourselves, didn’t have a hand in personally creating for our family is a dream that doesn’t exist. A dream from which there would be quite a rude awakening. Even those that do the most to increase their and their family’s safety shouldn’t take it for granted and must remain ever vigilant and prepared. That’s the only way to attain a small fraction of that feeling many want the government to provide.

Respectfully yours,

Misty02
03-24-2012, 14:14
The City of Sanford has a page where they continue to add updates. The main page is: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html)

There I found the following burglary reports: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf) (I had to chuckle when I read about the Sony Bravia flat screen on page 9). It seems there was plenty of reason for those calls to 911 the press has labeled as obsessive.


.

ATW525
03-24-2012, 14:17
Interesting development. It paints a slightly different picture than the initial story -

According to the witness -
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Technically, that was the initial story back in February before this became a national media circus. I first saw "John's" account in a story dated February 27th. It was only after Ben Crump got involved and started spinning things for the media that John's story got swept under the rug, and we got spoonfed Mary Cutcher's story in it's place.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 14:32
Great blog entry by Gutmacher, a Florida self-defense lawyer in Florida and the author of Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership, in the link below.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=Criminal-Lawyer-Blog&Store_Code=FFL


.

ATW525
03-24-2012, 14:39
Not sure if this has been mentioned, yet, but it seems there is now a $10,000 bounty for George Zimmerman's "capture" courtesy of the New Black Panthers:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,7824971.story

They also claim to be raising a million dollars through celebrity donations.

Flintlocker
03-24-2012, 16:12
http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/03/21/trayvon-martin-tracy-martin-sybrina-fulton-father-mother-justice-will-be-served/




Here at 3:11 his father (not an article, but his actual comment) he states it is his son, that he is positive it is his son's voice.

Ok, I realize I didn't post the link and can't find the video now. It is an interview with Anderson Cooper where the dad specifically mentions it is his son's voice.

Found it, at 3:46 "I'm positive that's my son's voice"
Trayvon Martin's father on the 911 tapes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju3XIpipHBU)
.

Thanks, I was mistaken.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 16:49
Not sure if this has been mentioned, yet, but it seems there is now a $10,000 bounty for George Zimmerman's "capture" courtesy of the New Black Panthers:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,7824971.story (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,7824971.story)

They also claim to be raising a million dollars through celebrity donations.

Isn’t enticing a riot or criminal acts illegal? They have also printed posters with Zimmerman’s pictures and wanted, dead or alive.

If that wasn’t bad enough, it appears death threats have been made to the police chief and his family. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=50436 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=50436)


Thanks, I was mistaken.


Actually, you aren’t! :) His dad at one point also said that wasn’t his son’s voice: http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2012/03/why-was-trayvon-martin-photo-altered.html (http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2012/03/why-was-trayvon-martin-photo-altered.html)

With so many articles and different versions, it’s difficult to keep up and know which the latest version is.

The link I posted above illustrates a possible altering of the picture that is being used by the media as well. Not that it should have any bearing on the case itself, but it is definitely being used to stir up emotions. It also appears that the reason he was suspended from school for 10 days was because he was in an unauthorized section of the school and a teacher lied to the press when she said he was suspended for being tardy. Again, none of it being relevant to what happened, just more mischaracterizations with intent to paint an untrue image.


.

IndyGunFreak
03-24-2012, 17:01
You know, guilty or not... if Zimmerman is charged... can he get a fair trial anywhere in Florida? Heck, can he get a fair trial anywhere in the US.

IGF

Bruce M
03-24-2012, 17:12
42 USC Sec 1983 holds "any person...". It was used against the KKK as a civil recourse when LE officials did not enforce the law. I am guessing, but the FBI Civil Rights Division is involved in the investigation as something more than window dressing.


I think it reads to the effect "Every person who under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities..."

My limited understanding of the phrase "color of law" essentially means a government sponsored or sanctioned action. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/color_of_law

ATW525
03-24-2012, 17:14
Isn’t enticing a riot or criminal acts illegal? They have also printed posters with Zimmerman’s pictures and wanted, dead or alive.



I don't know about Florida law, it appears to be illegal in California:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-dad-who-put-bounty-on-girls-boyfriend-sentenced-20110801,0,7459582.story

Bruce M
03-24-2012, 17:21
FSS 870.01 http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0870/SEC01.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0870->Section%2001#0870.01

blackjack
03-24-2012, 17:30
Great blog entry by Gutmacher, a Florida self-defense lawyer in Florida and the author of Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership, in the link below.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=Criminal-Lawyer-Blog&Store_Code=FFL


.

Excellent article, worthy of the click and the time to read it, especially given Gutmacher's background. Thumbs up to you, Misty02!!

Misty02
03-24-2012, 18:05
Excellent article, worthy of the click and the time to read it, especially given Gutmacher's background. Thumbs up to you, Misty02!!

Thank you, blackjack, but I can only take credit for sharing it, not finding it. It was found by someone else who shared it with others. :)

.

G30Mike
03-24-2012, 18:09
Not sure if this has been mentioned, yet, but it seems there is now a $10,000 bounty for George Zimmerman's "capture" courtesy of the New Black Panthers:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,7824971.story

They also claim to be raising a million dollars through celebrity donations.

Wonder what they plan on doing with him once he's captured. If a bunch of black militants get together to go after Zimmerman it could end up with Aryan and/or Hispanic militants heading them off. I'm sure most of these guys wont be unarmed. Could nake for a big stink in Florida and possibly other parts of the US. Nice of all these idiots to spark a race war out of this heap of crap. Could make the LA riots look like a birthday party if this stuff doesn't calm down soon....

HexHead
03-24-2012, 18:16
The most promising prosecution odds reside with this going Fed under deprivation of civil rights. Criminal prosecution-maybe, IDK. Civil prosecution with the lower standard-more likely.


I thought the Feds are going for hate crime, not civil rights violation.

If the shooting is deemed justified, there won't be a civil prosecution.

I wonder if Holder is going to do anything about the New Black Panthers putting a $10k bounty on Zimmerman's head and requesting 10,000 black men to find him?

HexHead
03-24-2012, 18:18
Wonder what they plan on doing with him once he's captured. If a bunch of black militants get together to go after Zimmerman it could end up with Aryan and/or Hispanic militants heading them off. I'm sure most of these guys wont be unarmed. Could nake for a big stink in Florida and possibly other parts of the US. Nice of all these idiots to spark a race war out of this heap of crap. Could make the LA riots look like a birthday party if this stuff doesn't calm down soon....

Well, if that's the plan, I hope it's before 0bama gets reelected.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 18:25
You know, guilty or not... if Zimmerman is charged... can he get a fair trial anywhere in Florida? Heck, can he get a fair trial anywhere in the US.

IGF

I really don’t see how that would be possible, but stranger things have happened.


.

garebel
03-24-2012, 18:26
Excellent article, worthy of the click and the time to read it, especially given Gutmacher's background. Thumbs up to you, Misty02!!

+1
I agree. I've already forwarded it to several friends.

garebel
03-24-2012, 18:31
Two words... Duke Lacrosse.

Good point.

ATW525
03-24-2012, 18:36
You know, guilty or not... if Zimmerman is charged... can he get a fair trial anywhere in Florida? Heck, can he get a fair trial anywhere in the US.

IGF

The officers in the Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell shootings were able to get a fair trial, so I imagine it's possible for George Zimmerman to obtain the same. Of course, even if he goes to trial and is acquitted, he will likely be branded as a racist child killer for life in the minds of many people.

garebel
03-24-2012, 18:40
I really don’t see how that would be possible, but stranger things have happened.


.

I agree Misty02.
These are troubling times, indeed.
Hopefully, "leaders" will lead, and calmer heads will prevail....

HKLovingIT
03-24-2012, 18:53
You know, guilty or not... if Zimmerman is charged... can he get a fair trial anywhere in Florida? Heck, can he get a fair trial anywhere in the US.

IGF


It doesn't matter anymore, it's too late for any of that fair trial business.

I wasn't there so I don't know what went down but no matter what happened and whether he was within the law or not, he's going to get sent away over this. Either state or federal. It has too much media attention and too many people/leaders/talking-heads foaming at the mouth and trying to score election or publicity points with their constituencies. He will go to prison to prevent another Miami version of the LA Riots. Bread and circuses folks, bread and circuses.

Fair trial - hmm, when the governor of your state is commenting about your possible case to the media, nope, I don't think you can get a fair trial in your state to say the least. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/arlington/headlines/20120323-in-arlington-jeb-bush-says-stand-your-ground-invalid-in-trayvon-martin-case.ece

I see it going like this:

He gets indicted on state or federal charges. The DA or US Attorney have a little chat with his lawyers. He takes a plea and goes to prison. The masses are appeased. The Miami Riots of 2012 are avoided. Some years later when everyone has forgotten about this, he gets paroled, if he hasn't died in prison. He writes his book.

But hey, he has a slim chance I suppose, anything can happen. Witness: Says it was SD...but that doesn't make it so...
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

ATW525
03-24-2012, 18:57
Zimmerman's friend says that it is Zimmerman howling on the 911 tapes:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-exclusive-friend-confirms-howls-911-tapes-belong/story?id=15994640#.T25tPTv--8B

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:25
You know, guilty or not... if Zimmerman is charged... can he get a fair trial anywhere in Florida? Heck, can he get a fair trial anywhere in the US.

IGF

Oh gosh, you're starting to sound like Rodney King's officers' lawyers. They claimed eveyone in the world saw the video and was influenced by the media, do you think they got a fair trial? Do you think the case in Simi Valley was fair?

This is America, the system is built to give everyone a fair trial when you work the process correctly. This "defendant" is no exception. If you "cheat" the process and you try to twist it to your advantage, it's only going to come back to bite you.

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:33
Wonder what they plan on doing with him once he's captured. If a bunch of black militants get together to go after Zimmerman it could end up with Aryan and/or Hispanic militants heading them off. I'm sure most of these guys wont be unarmed. Could nake for a big stink in Florida and possibly other parts of the US. Nice of all these idiots to spark a race war out of this heap of crap. Could make the LA riots look like a birthday party if this stuff doesn't calm down soon....

They are bluffing. It's all part of the grand scheme to scare everyone....and it's working.

I believe I read in an earlier article they said they would make a citizen's arrest and then turn over Zman to Federal authorities. Not sure what they think they can "arrest" him for but I guess they believe they can try to do it....and it will probably get ugly during that confrontation.

I predict the National Guard will be called out soon. Certainly by April 10th. Prob having those meetings already. Declare a state of emergency. Are your FL permits still good during a state of emergency? Can the government collect your weapons?

Reminds me of the old times when the tables were turned.

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:38
I see it going like this:

He gets indicted on state or federal charges. The DA or US Attorney have a little chat with his lawyers. He takes a plea and goes to prison. The masses are appeased. The Miami Riots of 2012 are avoided. Some years later when everyone has forgotten about this, he gets paroled, if he hasn't died in prison. He writes his book.


Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

G30Mike
03-24-2012, 19:39
They are bluffing. It's all part of the grand scheme to scare everyone....and it's working.

I believe I read in an earlier article they said they would make a citizen's arrest and then turn over Zman to Federal authorities. Not sure what they think they can "arrest" him for but I guess they believe they can try to do it....and it will probably get ugly during that confrontation.

I predict the National Guard will be called out soon. Certainly by April 10th. Prob having those meetings already. Declare a state of emergency. Are your FL permits still good during a state of emergency? Can the government collect your weapons?

Reminds me of the old times when the tables were turned.

Hopefully what you're saying is right.
Time will tell.

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:39
I see it going like this:

He gets indicted on state or federal charges. The DA or US Attorney have a little chat with his lawyers. He takes a plea and goes to prison. The masses are appeased. The Miami Riots of 2012 are avoided. Some years later when everyone has forgotten about this, he gets paroled, if he hasn't died in prison. He writes his book.


Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

I agree with you, when he pulled the trigger, he ended his life as we know it from that point on.

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:41
Hopefully what you're saying is right.
Time will tell.

To be honest with you, I don't believe anyone will be able to find him. He may have fled the state but not the country.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 19:42
I agree Misty02.
These are troubling times, indeed.
Hopefully, "leaders" will lead, and calmer heads will prevail....

How can leaders lead when you have the community inundated by outsiders stirring the pot? They have posters with Zimmerman’s picture “wanted dead or alive”. They have put a bounty on his head as if he had fled and the authorities didn’t know his whereabouts. They are using people’s emotions and if they get their way they’ll manage to make someone a murderer. There are threats to the life of the police chief and his family. How can a leader calm everyone long enough to explain they’re going the wrong way? Who would be the leader that steps up and tells those emotionally charged crowds that two wrongs don’t make a right?

There is nothing wrong with mourning the loss of a young man. There is nothing wrong with demanding justice (even when one may not fully understand what justice is). There is nothing wrong with gathering in his memory. But when someone attempts to turn an honest demonstration of loss into a lynch mob, whose actions would be criminal, it can’t all fall on the shoulders of a leader. People have to publicly denounce those that entice their community and realize that if they were to follow they would pretty much put an end to their lives as well.

I would arrest all those with the posters and charge them with whatever statute forbids threats on the life of another, more so when they put a price on their head.

If I was one of the parents I would be disgusted with how this has turned out. I just don’t know if I would have the strength to publicly express it. Then again, if they don’t, in the name of their child, harm and injustice might be carried out. I wouldn’t want the memory of my child to be connected to that. Tough spot for those parents to be in.


.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 19:50
To be honest with you, I don't believe anyone will be able to find him. He may have fled the state but not the country.

What makes you think he is nowhere to be found? Just because the press or the mobs can’t find him doesn’t mean the authorities and his attorney don’t know where he is.

ETA: for all we know, he could be in protective custody in an undisclosed place. Everyone knows his life is in danger.

.

HKLovingIT
03-24-2012, 19:51
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

I agree with you, when he pulled the trigger, he ended his life as we know it from that point on.


What special treatment did he get early on? (I'm not speaking sarcastically or argumentatively - just curious if there is info I didn't read yet)

From what I understood, they had sent over the info collected so far by the police to the DA to make a determination on self defense or not. Then it seemed to blow up in the media and get crazy. :dunno:

Tiro Fijo
03-24-2012, 19:52
...Reminds me of the old times when the tables were turned.


:upeyes:

Zimmerman will walk & rightfully so. Eventually, reality will sink in (for most) as an eyewitness is hard to refute, especially when it happened just outside his patio and his story matches Zimmerman's. Case closed. Fortunately, we do not live in a dictatorship (yet). Once the Liberal Left starts seeing this it will all go away as the evidence is irrefutable. The race baiters will find another victim.

:wavey:

slimgoodman
03-24-2012, 19:54
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

I agree!! Maybe someday a reason for Zman's special treatment in this case will surface. Treat him like any other citizen and let the system work.

G30Mike
03-24-2012, 19:55
To be honest with you, I don't believe anyone will be able to find him. He may have fled the state but not the country.

I wonder if he's even allowed to leave the state with the investigation pending. Unless federal authorities have him in some kind of protective custody due to the "bounty" on his head.

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:59
What makes you think he is nowhere to be found? Just because the press or the mobs can’t find him doesn’t mean the authorities and his attorney don’t know where he is.

ETA: for all we know, he could be in protective custody in an undisclosed place. Everyone knows his life is in danger.

.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Anyone that is trying to "find" him like media or black panthers, etc won't be able to. I believe the state knows where he is, I believe the lawyer knows where he might be even though he says otherwise; maybe even family. Still, the word is if indicted, he will turn himself in. I believe that as well. Otherwise, Zman may want to remain hidden, there are some serious people looking for him.

Z28ricer
03-24-2012, 20:10
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

I agree with you, when he pulled the trigger, he ended his life as we know it from that point on.

I just REALLY want to know how you figure he's not being treated like other FL residents ?

kensteele
03-24-2012, 20:11
I wonder if he's even allowed to leave the state with the investigation pending. Unless federal authorities have him in some kind of protective custody due to the "bounty" on his head.

I would tend to agree but I think there was awhile there when there was no invesigation and Zman was told he was free to go. If the death threats came very soon and he got scared and has some relatives/friends out of state (VA?), might have been a good time to leave.

The whole bounty on his head is over-rated. No one should get so excited over that, lynch mobs have been around for many many decades; wanted posters for innocent people have popped up by the thousands in the past. No one is immune from death theats, they happen all the time. it's nothing new. They are heinous and illegal but very common, in fact someone was arrested for threating the chief. Hank Aaron received a million of them and hate mail telling him he'd better not break the record.. I wouldn't get all bent out of shape about it unless it was happening to me personally. Zman is not going to get killed outside of jail.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 20:21
I would tend to agree but I think there was awhile there when there was no invesigation and Zman was told he was free to go. If the death threats came very soon and he got scared and has some relatives/friends out of state (VA?), might have been a good time to leave.

The whole bounty on his head is over-rated. No one should get so excited over that, lynch mobs have been around for many many decades; wanted posters for innocent people have popped up by the thousands in the past. No one is immune from death theats, they happen all the time. it's nothing new. They are heinous and illegal but very common, in fact someone was arrested for threating the chief. Hank Aaron received a million of them and hate mail telling him he'd better not break the record.. I wouldn't get all bent out of shape about it unless it was happening to me personally. Zman is not going to get killed outside of jail.

:supergrin: You’ve left me with nothing to add.

.

garebel
03-24-2012, 20:31
How can leaders lead when you have the community inundated by outsiders stirring the pot? They have posters with Zimmerman’s picture “wanted dead or alive”. They have put a bounty on his head as if he had fled and the authorities didn’t know his whereabouts. They are using people’s emotions and if they get their way they’ll manage to make someone a murderer. There are threats to the life of the police chief and his family. How can a leader calm everyone long enough to explain they’re going the wrong way? Who would be the leader that steps up and tells those emotionally charged crowds that two wrongs don’t make a right?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]There is nothing wrong with mourning the loss of a young man. There is nothing wrong with demanding justice (even when one may not fully understand what justice is). There is nothing wrong with gathering in his memory. But when someone attempts to turn an honest demonstration of loss into a lynch mob, whose actions would be criminal, it can’t all fall on the shoulders of a leader. People have to publicly denounce those that entice their community and realize that if they were to follow they would pretty much put an end to their lives as well.

I would arrest all those with the posters and charge them with whatever statute forbids threats on the life of another, more so when they put a price on their head.

If I was one of the parents I would be disgusted with how this has turned out. I just don’t know if I would have the strength to publicly express it. Then again, if they don’t, in the name of their child, harm and injustice might be carried out. I wouldn’t want the memory of my child to be connected to that. Tough spot for those parents to be in.


.

The outsiders are there because, unfortunately, there is a profit to be made from racial tensions, and thats what they do.
Al Sharpton is not a leader, he is a hatemonger...no different from the KKK goons who visited me when I was a teenager, trying to get me to join. I would tell you where I told them they could stick their membership, but it would probably get me a warning for language...

Even now, in 2012, there is still a definite divide between races.
It is not a personal thing...I have friends of color who are BROTHERS to me, I would trust them a hell of a lot more than a lot of my family members.
That being said, it is there. I know it, my friends know it, and everyone else knows it.
All that we can do, IMO, is love each other and obey The Golden Rule, and teach our children that we are ALL God's children...hopefully someday there will be no more of this nonsense.

Until then, honestly, I think the leadership MUST come from those in the Black Community.
It is not a time for emotion, but rather a time for calm, as the investigatory process is allowed to proceed.
A lynch mob mentality is WRONG now, just as it was damn WRONG back in the days when the shoe was on the other foot.

Who are the leaders who would lead?
There is one man who could calm this entire situation with just one press conference.
That man was, in fact, elected to lead this entire country...hopefully he will see the need to weigh in and do so,
before things get even more tragic.

Z28ricer
03-24-2012, 20:31
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

I agree with you, when he pulled the trigger, he ended his life as we know it from that point on.

I just REALLY want to know how you figure he's not being treated like other FL residents ?

What special treatment did he get early on? (I'm not speaking sarcastically or argumentatively - just curious if there is info I didn't read yet)

From what I understood, they had sent over the info collected so far by the police to the DA to make a determination on self defense or not. Then it seemed to blow up in the media and get crazy. :dunno:

kensteele
03-24-2012, 20:35
:supergrin: You’ve left me with nothing to add.

.

Casey Anthony received a bunch of death threats, nobody really broke a sweat over them either. The primary purpose of a death threat is to instill fear (not to warn someone of their death) and make life miserable, I doubt they plan to carry it out. I just wouldn't let it get to me from the outside looking in (meaning I wouldn't worry about Zman's safety, he can take care of himself or the authorities can do it). All Zman has to do is continue to carry his permit and keltec and he should be fine. What nearby states honour the FL permit?

Z28ricer
03-24-2012, 20:40
Yep, thought so, misled by the media, and making statements with nothing to back them up, just like the media.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 20:52
He already commented on the case: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2709583/president-trayvon-case-a-tragedy.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2709583/president-trayvon-case-a-tragedy.html)

The outsiders are there because, unfortunately, there is a profit to be made from racial tensions, and thats what they do.
Al Sharpton is not a leader, he is a hatemonger...no different from the KKK goons who visited me when I was a teenager, trying to get me to join. I would tell you where I told them they could stick their membership, but it would probably get me a warning for language...

Even now, in 2012, there is still a definite divide between races.
It is not a personal thing...I have friends of color who are BROTHERS to me, I would trust them a hell of a lot more than a lot of my family members.
That being said, it is there. I know it, my friends know it, and everyone else knows it.
All that we can do, IMO, is love each other and obey The Golden Rule, and teach our children that we are ALL God's children...hopefully someday there will be no more of this nonsense.

Until then, honestly, I think the leadership MUST come from those in the Black Community.
It is not a time for emotion, but rather a time for calm, as the investigatory process is allowed to proceed.
A lynch mob mentality is WRONG now, just as it was damn WRONG back in the days when the shoe was on the other foot.

Who are the leaders who would lead?
There is one man who could calm this entire situation with just one press conference.
That man was, in fact, elected to lead this entire country...hopefully he will see the need to weigh in and do so,
before things get even more tragic.

garebel
03-24-2012, 21:12
He already commented on the case: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2709583/president-trayvon-case-a-tragedy.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2709583/president-trayvon-case-a-tragedy.html)

Well I hope he recognizes that things ain't getting any better, and steps up to the plate, with some STRONGER language of restraint and calm...thats what a leader is supposed to do.
A full blown race riot, because of his inability to see what the hell is going on and deal with it, could very well cost him the election.....as it should.

vkscott
03-24-2012, 21:19
I wonder if he's even allowed to leave the state with the investigation pending. Unless federal authorities have him in some kind of protective custody due to the "bounty" on his head.

This very question was asked on the news last night "Is Zimmerman free to leave the state or country for that matter?" The answer was yes because he has not been charged with any crime therefore there is no reason to order him to stay put where the local PD can find him.

xXxplosive
03-24-2012, 21:22
A Witness Speaks.......


http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-T...cked-Zimmerman (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/24/Witness-Martin-attacked-Zimmerman)

RussP
03-24-2012, 21:37
Link to story (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/24/10847208-trayvon-martin-family-attorney-confident-state-charges-coming-in-shooting-death)

Their attorney, Daryl Parks says he expects state charges will be filed.

He said the family and the attorneys met with officials from the U.S. Justice Department on Thursday and the focus is not on a federal arrest over a state arrest.

Misty02
03-24-2012, 21:37
Casey Anthony received a bunch of death threats, nobody really broke a sweat over them either. The primary purpose of a death threat is to instill fear (not to warn someone of their death) and make life miserable, I doubt they plan to carry it out. I just wouldn't let it get to me from the outside looking in (meaning I wouldn't worry about Zman's safety, he can take care of himself or the authorities can do it). All Zman has to do is continue to carry his permit and keltec and he should be fine. What nearby states honour the FL permit?

Casey Anthony didn’t have community organizers flying in to stir the pot. All statements of hate and threats were addressed exclusively to her. She didn’t have Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story) stating that all people of a certain race are under attack. There was no one bringing hate to entire communities and around the world. I also don’t recall the President of the United States commenting on her case. You can’t compare one to the other.

Do you believe the decision to arrest the man that made death threats to the police chief and his family was an exaggeration and no one thought it may be carried out?

Some of your comments are deadly serious and condemn a person without having sufficient information to form an opinion. In others you treat it as something of no importance and insinuate people are exaggerating or blowing things out of proportion. I’m confused.
:dunno:


.

Z28ricer
03-24-2012, 21:56
I'm STILL waiting on his claim that the guy was treated differently than any other FL resident.

PEC-Memphis
03-24-2012, 22:12
He already commented on the case: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2709583/president-trayvon-case-a-tragedy.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2709583/president-trayvon-case-a-tragedy.html)

Where was barry (or al) when Officer Yaslowitz, Officer Baitinger, Officer Crawford, and Uwe-Wilhelm Rakebrand were killed (under much more "clear-cut" circumstances)?

Oh, that doesn't fit into his political agenda.

ZombieKing
03-24-2012, 22:55
Link to story (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/24/10847208-trayvon-martin-family-attorney-confident-state-charges-coming-in-shooting-death)

Their attorney, Daryl Parks says he expects state charges will be filed.

He said the family and the attorneys met with officials from the U.S. Justice Department on Thursday and the focus is not on a federal arrest over a state arrest.

The problem with this is that this guy represents Trayvon Martin's family.

He is not a neutral person on the subject and has already decided that Zimmerman is guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin. He expects the State to file charges because he himself believes in Zimmerman's guilt.

He's just speculating. And from this line in the linked article: "“Most state laws tend to be better for the prosecution of state crimes,” Parks told the journalists. “And that's why we see the federal authorities expressing, although gently, they can only do so much if there's some type of race issues involved. The state officials don't have that problem.”"

I'm thinking thinking that the Feds told him that the odds of Zimmerman being charged at a Federal Level are very slim.

He's just spinning it to support the people who are paying him.

hyperstyx
03-24-2012, 23:35
I think it reads to the effect "Every person who under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities..."

My limited understanding of the phrase "color of law" essentially means a government sponsored or sanctioned action. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/color_of_law

Agreed, and this was my understanding also but an additional comment in an analysis indicated common usage was not settled law and was subject to interpretation.

Private citizens can sue private citizens for civil rights (act '64) violations in Fed court in various circumstances of rights deprivation/discrimination and I suspect that's how this will end up. But Hate Crime is viable if investigation establishes even one witnessed/recorded allegation.

It may be that the FBI is there only to monitor the state officials who are acting under commonly understood color of law but I would think everyone is under a microscope. Additional conjecture concerns how the Feds will react to what they seem to be viewing as a crisis...that can't be wasted.

I'd hoped that somewhere in the several searches I did that a direct answer to my speculative question would be located,along with cites, but it didn't work out.

jack76590
03-25-2012, 00:49
,,,,,,,,,,,,
But hey, he has a slim chance I suppose, anything can happen. Witness: Says it was SD...but that doesn't make it so...
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012


If there is a witnesses that says Martin attack Zimmerman and as a result Zimmerman get off, I predict riots across US. The Black community now has too much emotional investment in Martin as symbolic victim and will never accept that Zimmerman is innocent.

AZLawDawg
03-25-2012, 01:18
I dare say that all of us would consider it abusive and or offensive to be followed by a strange car and then asked to explain ourselves to another person not identified as a legitimate authority figure. Heck, a lot of you consider it abusive to be asked to explain yourselves to legitimate authority figures, but, generally speaking, most of us are willing to tolerate a little minor intrusion by the people we charge with maintaining the rule of law amongst us occasionally to ensure that public order and peace is maintained.



Good observation.

TBO
03-25-2012, 08:18
Trayvon Martin case’s myths, half truths

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20120324trayvon_martin_cases_myths_half_truths/srvc=home&position=recent

Misty02
03-25-2012, 08:41
Link to story (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/24/10847208-trayvon-martin-family-attorney-confident-state-charges-coming-in-shooting-death)

Their attorney, Daryl Parks says he expects state charges will be filed.

He said the family and the attorneys met with officials from the U.S. Justice Department on Thursday and the focus is not on a federal arrest over a state arrest.

Although not against the law, I still believe this shooting was preventable by Zimmerman not getting out of his vehicle and trying to see where Martin went. It is quite possible that nothing he did was illegal (even if terribly unwise). However, with conditions as they are, if it were me (even if it was a clearer case of SD) I would be the first to agree to an arrest and a trial. I would even help the police to find something to charge me with. In something of this magnitude (actually, regardless) I would want some legal proceeding that clears me. The last thing I would want is to let things linger for eternity with just “there wasn’t enough evidence for an arrest”.


Where was barry (or al) when Officer Yaslowitz, Officer Baitinger, Officer Crawford, and Uwe-Wilhelm Rakebrand were killed (under much more "clear-cut" circumstances)?

Oh, that doesn't fit into his political agenda.

:dunno: I don’t know. I don’t even know where he stands on this, although it is implied.

The problem with this is that this guy represents Trayvon Martin's family.

He is not a neutral person on the subject and has already decided that Zimmerman is guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin. He expects the State to file charges because he himself believes in Zimmerman's guilt.

He's just speculating. And from this line in the linked article: "“Most state laws tend to be better for the prosecution of state crimes,” Parks told the journalists. “And that's why we see the federal authorities expressing, although gently, they can only do so much if there's some type of race issues involved. The state officials don't have that problem.”"

I'm thinking thinking that the Feds told him that the odds of Zimmerman being charged at a Federal Level are very slim.

He's just spinning it to support the people who are paying him.

Based on what I have been able to learn here and in the other forum, Zimmerman’s odds would be better with the State’s criminal courts. I have yet to learn enough about the Federal Courts to determine if they have the same stringent “beyond reasonable doubt”. I believe he would be toast in Civil court, I understand that one just a tad better.

Agreed, and this was my understanding also but an additional comment in an analysis indicated common usage was not settled law and was subject to interpretation.

Private citizens can sue private citizens for civil rights (act '64) violations in Fed court in various circumstances of rights deprivation/discrimination and I suspect that's how this will end up. But Hate Crime is viable if investigation establishes even one witnessed/recorded allegation.

It may be that the FBI is there only to monitor the state officials who are acting under commonly understood color of law but I would think everyone is under a microscope. Additional conjecture concerns how the Feds will react to what they seem to be viewing as a crisis...that can't be wasted.

I'd hoped that somewhere in the several searches I did that a direct answer to my speculative question would be located,along with cites, but it didn't work out.

I’m also very interested in learning how this would work in conjunction with the FL Statute. If his actions are cleared as justified SD he can’t successfully be sued in civil court, apparently they’re not even able to bring further charges. I think that means no Federal charges either, but I’m not sure. I would like to know.

It would be interesting if Sam put up a paper on this case with various assumptions and how it could possible work with the various courts as well as the possible outcomes. Obviously, assumptions would have to made to illustrate it.

.

rahrah12
03-25-2012, 08:48
Apparently

The attorney for Trayvon Martin, Benjamin Crump, said on the radio that Trayvon was NOT shot in the chest and was shot in the back of the head...

Would be very strange that this info is just now getting released...but why would he say that?

IndyGunFreak
03-25-2012, 09:19
Apparently

The attorney for Trayvon Martin, Benjamin Crump, said on the radio that Trayvon was NOT shot in the chest and was shot in the back of the head...

Would be very strange that this info is just now getting released...but why would he say that?

I would love to see a neutral report on this, or is he just spinning the media again?

Everything I've read up to this point, says chest shot.

vkscott
03-25-2012, 09:22
Apparently

The attorney for Trayvon Martin, Benjamin Crump, said on the radio that Trayvon was NOT shot in the chest and was shot in the back of the head...

Would be very strange that this info is just now getting released...but why would he say that?

That is the first I have heard this. All news reports I have seen said it was in the chest. But, I don't see where shot placement has to do with the case. I think they are just stirring the pot.

On a side note, I just wonder how committed the Black Panther Party really is.

A paragraph from the following article
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/25/is-momentum-in-trayvon-martin-case-swinging-toward-george-zimmerman/

"In another sign that momentum may be shifting, a planned New Black Panther Party rally fell through on Saturday in Sanford. Party leader Malik Zulu Shabazz was expected to come to Sanford to protest outside the local police department headquarters, but he failed to show up. A small local contingency from his organization met instead on the other side of town."

:dunno:

rahrah12
03-25-2012, 09:23
I would love to see a neutral report on this, or is he just spinning the media again?

Everything I've read up to this point, says chest shot.

Don't know...but I am assuming we will hear something about it this week...

He will have to provide something to back this up...

kensteele
03-25-2012, 09:29
Casey Anthony didn’t have community organizers flying in to stir the pot. All statements of hate and threats were addressed exclusively to her. She didn’t have Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story) stating that all people of a certain race are under attack. There was no one bringing hate to entire communities and around the world. I also don’t recall the President of the United States commenting on her case. You can’t compare one to the other.

Do you believe the decision to arrest the man that made death threats to the police chief and his family was an exaggeration and no one thought it may be carried out?

Some of your comments are deadly serious and condemn a person without having sufficient information to form an opinion. In others you treat it as something of no importance and insinuate people are exaggerating or blowing things out of proportion. I’m confused.
:dunno:


.

Why yes of course I believe threats to the police chief happened and they are indeed unlawful. One or more of the perpetrators has been caught and should be prosecuted. You can't deliver a death threat to a public official or a politicial especially the police, especially since they think they are only doing their job. Either way public life, private citizen, etc, you don't threaten to kill someone. I never use the word exaggaration, in fact, I think there are actually many many more than what we are aware of. In the case, there might be 20,000 death threats. On top of that, there might be 50,000 more "thinking" the same thing with even more intent than the actually offenders.

Death threats have always been the topic of free speech because not all threats cross the line. It is for that reason, I have said "don't worry too much about it" or "it's overrated." I want to focus on this case. That, plus the fact that hardly any of them are carried out anyway. It doesn't make sense to try to track down between 20,000 to 50,000 people to try to prosecute them and put them in jail, etc. I'm sure the death threats came long before Obama spoke, I don't see how that has anything to do with this. The Casey Anthony case is totally different than this case, sure, with all the aspects you mentioned but still, the jury got a lot of death threats....but alas nobody cares there either. I brought up that case because it's the first one (in FL) that came to mind. for a whole bunch of people, apparently it's ok the jury received death threats. of course the authorities looked into it but like this case, the people don't need to worry about it and should just let the authorities handle it just like they have with the dozens of other cases. if for some reason this particular case is starting to hit home and starting to feel more real than others, I can understand those concerns. Nobody deserves to receive a death threat.

kensteele
03-25-2012, 09:34
If there is a witnesses that says Martin attack Zimmerman and as a result Zimmerman get off, I predict riots across US. The Black community now has too much emotional investment in Martin as symbolic victim and will never accept that Zimmerman is innocent.

I think the chances of a riot are greatly diminshed as time goes on and it depends on how long this case goes. No indictment from the grand jury on April 10 and no federal charges, likely. A not guilty verdict three years later from a mixed jury in downtown Orlando after 20 weeks of televised trial, not likely.

ZombieKing
03-25-2012, 09:56
Apparently

The attorney for Trayvon Martin, Benjamin Crump, said on the radio that Trayvon was NOT shot in the chest and was shot in the back of the head...

Would be very strange that this info is just now getting released...but why would he say that?

I have a hard time believing that since everything has said Trayvon was shot in the chest.

I also read a CNN article that backs up Assad Ayoob's blog about the gun and how it had not cycled to get a new round meaning most likely they were fighting over the gun. That makes it more likely that Martin was shot in the front of his chest (or even his head) and was not shot in the back of the head.

And honestly I'd ignore any attorney for Martin's family and for Zimmerman's family.

ZombieKing
03-25-2012, 09:59
Although not against the law, I still believe this shooting was preventable by Zimmerman not getting out of his vehicle and trying to see where Martin went. It is quite possible that nothing he did was illegal (even if terribly unwise). However, with conditions as they are, if it were me (even if it was a clearer case of SD) I would be the first to agree to an arrest and a trial. I would even help the police to find something to charge me with. In something of this magnitude (actually, regardless) I would want some legal proceeding that clears me. The last thing I would want is to let things linger for eternity with just “there wasn’t enough evidence for an arrest”.

That's one hell of a gamble and I'd advise Zimmerman not to even try it.

Even if he went to trial and was found not guilty those things you mentioned will still linger for eternity.

Instead of “there wasn’t enough evidence for an arrest” it will be “there wasn’t enough evidence for a conviction”.

Also doing what you say would automatically open him up to a civil lawsuit.

If the shooting is found justified the family of Trayvon Martin will not be able to sue in court but if it goes to trial then regardless of the outcome of the trial the family will then be able to sue Zimmerman.

Misty02
03-25-2012, 10:00
Trayvon Martin case’s myths, half truths

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20120324trayvon_martin_cases_myths_half_truths/srvc=home&position=recent

There are many half truths, altered and handpicked information being disseminated in this case in order to get an emotional response and set public perception.

Some of the alterations/modifications may not be pertinent in any legal court but it would affect the court of public opinion. There is the altered picture of Trayvon, the teacher’s fib that he was suspended for being late to class, when that wasn’t in fact the reason, pictures of his childhood in lieu of current pictures; none relevant to the case, but used to paint an inaccurate picture of who Trayvon was. I don’t think it would matter, even if he actually had a police record, Zimmerman shouldn’t have gotten out of his car and followed (even if he saw something suspicious).

The media is conveying to the public that Zimmerman has a bias against black males based on his previous 911 calls: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/032012-Man-who-shot-%26-killed-teen-has-history-calling-911 (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/032012-Man-who-shot-%26-killed-teen-has-history-calling-911). Of the 46 calls he made, did he mention a white person in any? Of the last 6 calls where he describes black males, where there arrests of black males? BTW of the 6 calls they imply he described black males, I heard the entire audio of one showed in that news article and he said the group of kids were of various races and he mentioned this after the operator asked about race. Why is that being counted as one where he described black males when he didn't? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-oHrNd80Us

The police released some of the burglary/break-in reports http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf)
Most do in fact describe black males, is this Zimmerman’s bias or just facts? Page 13 is about a home invasion (lady locked herself in the bedroom) by two black males. Are these people with racial bias or are they just facts in specific cases?

.

IndyGunFreak
03-25-2012, 10:11
That's one hell of a gamble and I'd advise Zimmerman not to even try it.

Even if he went to trial and was found not guilty those things you mentioned will still linger for eternity.

Instead of “there wasn’t enough evidence for an arrest” it will be “there wasn’t enough evidence for a conviction”.

Also doing what you say would automatically open him up to a civil lawsuit.

If the shooting is found justified the family of Trayvon Martin will not be able to sue in court but if it goes to trial then regardless of the outcome of the trial the family will then be able to sue Zimmerman.

I thought Stand Your Ground protected you in the event of an acquittal?

jdavionic
03-25-2012, 10:17
There are many half truths, altered and handpicked information being disseminated in this case in order to get an emotional response and set public perception.

Some of the alterations/modifications may not be pertinent in any legal court but it would affect the court of public opinion. There is the altered picture of Trayvon, the teacher’s fib that he was suspended for being late to class, when that wasn’t in fact the reason, pictures of his childhood in lieu of current pictures; none relevant to the case, but used to paint an inaccurate picture of who Trayvon was. I don’t think it would matter, even if he actually had a police record, Zimmerman shouldn’t have gotten out of his car and followed (even if he saw something suspicious).

The media is conveying to the public that Zimmerman has a bias against black males based on his previous 911 calls: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/032012-Man-who-shot-%26-killed-teen-has-history-calling-911 (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/032012-Man-who-shot-%26-killed-teen-has-history-calling-911). Of the 46 calls he made, did he mention a white person in any? Of the last 6 calls where he describes black males, where there arrests of black males? BTW of the 6 calls they imply he described black males, I heard the entire audio of one showed in that news article and he said the group of kids were of various races and he mentioned this after the operator asked about race. Why is that being counted as one where he described black males when he didn't? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-oHrNd80Us (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-oHrNd80Us)

The police released some of the burglary/break-in reports http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf)
Most do in fact describe black males, is this Zimmerman’s bias or just facts? Page 13 is about a home invasion (lady locked herself in the bedroom) by two black males. Are these people with racial bias or are they just facts in specific cases?

.

Some time ago (well before this incident) Neal Boortz went on a rant about racial profiling and how we are morphing to the point of absurdity. He went through a made-up incident where a fat black female robbed a bank to make his point...e.g., BOLO alerts cannot describe the woman as "black" because that would be deemed racial profiling. They cannot include that the suspect is a woman because that would profiling based on sex. They cannot describe the suspect as fat or obese because that would be profiling based on weight. So the alert ends up...be on the lookout for a person that we believe robbed a bank.

rahrah12
03-25-2012, 10:18
I have a hard time believing that since everything has said Trayvon was shot in the chest.

I also read a CNN article that backs up Assad Ayoob's blog about the gun and how it had not cycled to get a new round meaning most likely they were fighting over the gun. That makes it more likely that Martin was shot in the front of his chest (or even his head) and was not shot in the back of the head.

And honestly I'd ignore any attorney for Martin's family and for Zimmerman's family.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2012/03/24/ac-sonner-trayvon-martin-shooting.cnn

Zimmermans attorney...

I agree with you...just relaying the info...

Misty02
03-25-2012, 11:22
That's one hell of a gamble and I'd advise Zimmerman not to even try it.

Even if he went to trial and was found not guilty those things you mentioned will still linger for eternity.

Instead of “there wasn’t enough evidence for an arrest” it will be “there wasn’t enough evidence for a conviction”.

Also doing what you say would automatically open him up to a civil lawsuit.

If the shooting is found justified the family of Trayvon Martin will not be able to sue in court but if it goes to trial then regardless of the outcome of the trial the family will then be able to sue Zimmerman.

If the shooting is declared as justified self-defense, whether by court process or other, he would be immune to civil suit. Anyone that attempts would end up stuck with his legal fees, loss wages, the works.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html)

My question; however, what if the court finds him not guilty of murder but doesn’t include that it was a justified act of self-defense? Can they do that? If they can, where does that leave things?
.

HexHead
03-25-2012, 11:27
If the shooting is found justified the family of Trayvon Martin will not be able to sue in court but if it goes to trial then regardless of the outcome of the trial the family will then be able to sue Zimmerman.

Zimmerman, his family, the condo assoc., their insurer (they probably have at least a $1 million liability policy) and any other deep pocket they can think of. This would be better than 0bamamoney.

Misty02
03-25-2012, 11:41
Some time ago (well before this incident) Neal Boortz went on a rant about racial profiling and how we are morphing to the point of absurdity. He went through a made-up incident where a fat black female robbed a bank to make his point...e.g., BOLO alerts cannot describe the woman as "black" because that would be deemed racial profiling. They cannot include that the suspect is a woman because that would profiling based on sex. They cannot describe the suspect as fat or obese because that would be profiling based on weight. So the alert ends up...be on the lookout for a person that we believe robbed a bank.

:rofl: Priceless!

.

LApm9
03-25-2012, 12:06
If there is a witnesses that says Martin attack Zimmerman and as a result Zimmerman get off, I predict riots across US. The Black community now has too much emotional investment in Martin as symbolic victim and will never accept that Zimmerman is innocent.

If history is any guide, only the minority neighborhoods will be destroyed. Each time this happens, fewer merchants return...

Misty02
03-25-2012, 12:19
I thought Stand Your Ground protected you in the event of an acquittal?

I’m slowly learning more about that. It appears it would solve possible legal issues with the shooting itself, assuming it is ruled as justified self-defense. However, it appears legal action can still be brought by the family and possibly the feds for violation of civil rights. The evidence at hand may not be sufficient to win such a suit, but there is no immunity for violation of civil right. I’m still learning, so I might not have worded this correctly.

ETA: Can someone that knows more correct my comment so it is something others can understand and learn from as well?

.

hyperstyx
03-25-2012, 13:16
Although not against the law, I still believe this shooting was preventable by Zimmerman not getting out of his vehicle and trying to see where Martin went. It is quite possible that nothing he did was illegal (even if terribly unwise). However, with conditions as they are, if it were me (even if it was a clearer case of SD) I would be the first to agree to an arrest and a trial. I would even help the police to find something to charge me with. In something of this magnitude (actually, regardless) I would want some legal proceeding that clears me. The last thing I would want is to let things linger for eternity with just “there wasn’t enough evidence for an arrest”.






:dunno: I don’t know. I don’t even know where he stands on this, although it is implied.



Based on what I have been able to learn here and in the other forum, Zimmerman’s odds would be better with the State’s criminal courts. I have yet to learn enough about the Federal Courts to determine if they have the same stringent “beyond reasonable doubt”. I believe he would be toast in Civil court, I understand that one just a tad better.



I’m also very interested in learning how this would work in conjunction with the FL Statute. If his actions are cleared as justified SD he can’t successfully be sued in civil court, apparently they’re not even able to bring further charges. I think that means no Federal charges either, but I’m not sure. I would like to know.

It would be interesting if Sam put up a paper on this case with various assumptions and how it could possible work with the various courts as well as the possible outcomes. Obviously, assumptions would have to made to illustrate it.

.



I also did a quick review of the Supremacy Clause/Federal Preemption but did not arrive at anything definitive. It would take a legal scholar's analysis of all the facts pertaining to this case as related to applicable law to get an opinion worthy of consideration. If more than one scholar gets involved I'd not be surprised at conflicting opinions. And then there's the levels of examination and review by the courts.

Interesting and unsettled times may be visiting for quite a while.

Wake_jumper
03-25-2012, 13:18
An eye-witness has surfaced and says that Zimm was on the ground being pummeled by Martin. His bloody face and clothes corroborate the story. Zimm was calling to the passerby for help. He shot Martin as a last resort.

HexHead
03-25-2012, 13:32
Then there's this....

http://www.morans.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=543&d=1332700596

Misty02
03-25-2012, 13:45
I also did a quick review of the Supremacy Clause/Federal Preemption but did not arrive at anything definitive. It would take a legal scholar's analysis of all the facts pertaining to this case as related to applicable law to get an opinion worthy of consideration. If more than one scholar gets involved I'd not be surprised at conflicting opinions. And then there's the levels of examination and review by the courts.

Interesting and unsettled times may be visiting for quite a while.

This case has truly fascinated me and increased my thirst for knowledge and information beyond anything I could have predicted. I am also interested in the human aspects, I’ve always been interested in people watching (including but not limited to how we react to one another), this case has offered a lot of information on that too.

Of course, I live in Florida; perhaps not close enough to Martin’s home to feel the full effects of civil disturbances, but enough to possibly feel minor interruptions in the chains of supply and the like. If something was to happen at a state wide level (which I believe is unlikely) then I may find myself closer to the action than I ever cared to be.

One thing is certain, not even in my wildest imagination would I have assumed it would have reached this magnitude. There is so much to learn!

We’ll have to wait and see how it all progresses and I trust TBO will post links in the future with relevant updates, even when fury of it all has passed. :)


An eye-witness has surfaced and says that Zimm was on the ground being pummeled by Martin. His bloody face and clothes corroborate the story. Zimm was calling to the passerby for help. He shot Martin as a last resort.

He was among the original eyewitness and reported in an article dated 2/27/12, which I had not read either until it was posted here recently.

.

ATW525
03-25-2012, 14:30
Nutter declares killing an "assassination":

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc-tv/46849145/#46849145

No... really... that's his name...

Southswede
03-25-2012, 15:36
An eye-witness has surfaced and says that Zimm was on the ground being pummeled by Martin. His bloody face and clothes corroborate the story. Zimm was calling to the passerby for help. He shot Martin as a last resort.

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin

Found that while googling......

rhikdavis
03-25-2012, 15:40
Now the Black Panthers will go after that witness to set him straight.

IndyGunFreak
03-25-2012, 15:42
I wonder what kind of effect this will have on the Presidential election?

Misty02
03-25-2012, 15:43
Nutter declares killing an "assassination":

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc-tv/46849145/#46849145

No... really... that's his name...

Quite a fitting name. :supergrin:

Will he take some responsibility for the reaction his statements have in a community that is extremely sensitive at the moment? People really don’t take time to think before making a public statement that can seriously impact thousands, do they?
:faint:
.

pipedreams
03-25-2012, 16:20
Here is where the real problem is not in Florida.

"Last weekend in the city of Chicago alone, gangbangers (http://cofcc.org/2012/03/total-bloodbath-in-chicago-9-dead-40-wounded/) slaughtered ten people and wounded another forty (http://cofcc.org/2012/03/total-bloodbath-in-chicago-9-dead-40-wounded/). The youngest fatality is only six years old. The youngest person wounded is only one-year-old. Many of the victim were pedestrians sprayed with bullets in drive by shootings. The national news has said nothing about this."

Misty02
03-25-2012, 16:40
Here is where the real problem is not in Florida.

"Last weekend in the city of Chicago alone, gangbangers (http://cofcc.org/2012/03/total-bloodbath-in-chicago-9-dead-40-wounded/) slaughtered ten people and wounded another forty (http://cofcc.org/2012/03/total-bloodbath-in-chicago-9-dead-40-wounded/). The youngest fatality is only six years old. The youngest person wounded is only one-year-old. Many of the victim were pedestrians sprayed with bullets in drive by shootings. The national news has said nothing about this."

My prayers to the families and loved ones to all those affected. I guess no one in the crowd was armed and able to stop these gangsters?

And they want to repeal stand your ground?

.

ATW525
03-25-2012, 16:42
My prayers to the families and loved ones to all those affected. I guess no one in the crowd was armed and able to stop these gangsters?

And they want to repeal stand your ground?

.


In Chicago, only cops and crooks carry guns.

Misty02
03-25-2012, 17:19
In Chicago, only cops and crooks carry guns.

I know, but isn't that what some of our politicians are working toward?

.

G30Mike
03-25-2012, 17:28
Here is where the real problem is not in Florida.

"Last weekend in the city of Chicago alone, gangbangers (http://cofcc.org/2012/03/total-bloodbath-in-chicago-9-dead-40-wounded/) slaughtered ten people and wounded another forty (http://cofcc.org/2012/03/total-bloodbath-in-chicago-9-dead-40-wounded/). The youngest fatality is only six years old. The youngest person wounded is only one-year-old. Many of the victim were pedestrians sprayed with bullets in drive by shootings. The national news has said nothing about this."

Of course they wont cover it because its not true. Chicago's tough gun laws work to well for those things to happen. I'm betting Chicago is one of the safest cities to live in besides NY and DC.
:toungout:

HKLovingIT
03-25-2012, 17:51
Of course they wont cover it because its not true. Chicago's tough gun laws work to well for those things to happen. I'm betting Chicago is one of the safest cities to live in besides NY and DC.
:toungout:


Don't forget Baltimore!

ballr4lyf
03-25-2012, 18:46
On second thought: deleted.

mrsurfboard
03-25-2012, 19:00
Now famous gun grabber Schumer is getting involved

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/25/schumer-calls-for-federal-probe-stand-your-ground-laws-after-florida-shooting/?test=latestnews

When this is all said and done, carry and gun rights will be set back 10 years. Thanks Zimmerman

PEC-Memphis
03-25-2012, 19:10
I’m slowly learning more about that. It appears it would solve possible legal issues with the shooting itself, assuming it is ruled as justified self-defense. However, it appears legal action can still be brought by the family and possibly the feds for violation of civil rights. The evidence at hand may not be sufficient to win such a suit, but there is no immunity for violation of civil right. I’m still learning, so I might not have worded this correctly.

ETA: Can someone that knows more correct my comment so it is something others can understand and learn from as well?

.

I believe you are correct. Further, the constitutionality of civil suit protection hasn't been tested. I have an acquaintance, who is a very well respected criminal attorney, and by consequence of being a criminal attorney is well versed in Constitutional law (he is also very pro-ccw). He says that the ability to sue someone is a right that cannot be denied by a state law, ie. is protected by the Constitution; particularly in the case of "castle law" protection. Here's why - the burden of proof for criminal law ("beyond a reasonable doubt") is different than a civil suit ("preponderance of evidence"). An example of winning a criminal case and losing a civil case for the same crime is the OJ Simpson case. The jury determined that there was not enough evidence to criminally convict, but another jury determined that there was enough evidence for him to lose the civil case.

Z28ricer
03-25-2012, 19:16
I believe you are correct. Further, the constitutionality of civil suit protection hasn't been tested. I have an acquaintance, who is a very well respected criminal attorney, and by consequence of being a criminal attorney is well versed in Constitutional law (he is also very pro-ccw). He says that the ability to sue someone is a right that cannot be denied by a state law, ie. is protected by the Constitution; particularly in the case of "castle law" protection. Here's why - the burden of proof for criminal law ("beyond a reasonable doubt") is different than a civil suit ("preponderance of evidence"). An example of winning a criminal case and losing a civil case for the same crime is the OJ Simpson case. The jury determined that there was not enough evidence to criminally convict, but another jury determined that there was enough evidence for him to lose the civil case.


The SYG / Castle laws state that if someone is justified in using legal force, justified self defense and just not being found guilty of a charge in court arent exactly the same.

OctoberRust
03-25-2012, 20:43
When this is all said and done, carry and gun rights will be set back 10 years. Thanks Zimmerman


I can't see this happening in TX.... Then again, you are in NJ, so speak for yourself.

Z28ricer
03-25-2012, 21:35
When this is all said and done, carry and gun rights will be set back 10 years. Thanks Zimmerman

Thanks Zimmerman ? You're kidding me right ?

Say thank you to the media for printing spins and flat out lies, as well as idiots believing that and making statements based on it.


Oh, wait, yours was one of those too, oops.

How dare someone legally defend themselves, and to make it worse he just decided to have the media and other's so FOS its unreal, print up all that crap.

:upeyes:

ZombieKing
03-25-2012, 22:25
I thought Stand Your Ground protected you in the event of an acquittal?

If the shooting is declared as justified self-defense, whether by court process or other, he would be immune to civil suit. Anyone that attempts would end up stuck with his legal fees, loss wages, the works.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html)

My question; however, what if the court finds him not guilty of murder but doesn’t include that it was a justified act of self-defense? Can they do that? If they can, where does that leave things?
.


The way I've understood it is that you have to be justified from the start to avoid civil action.

If the state says you weren't justified and puts you on trial then you can't be immune from civil action under 776.032.

Even if a jury finds you not guilty that's not the same as saying you were justified. The jury is just saying there isn't enough evidence to convict you. So you are still open to being sued in civil court.

Misty02
03-25-2012, 22:54
The way I've understood it is that you have to be justified from the start to avoid civil action.

If the state says you weren't justified and puts you on trial then you can't be immune from civil action under 776.032.

Even if a jury finds you not guilty that's not the same as saying you were justified. The jury is just saying there isn't enough evidence to convict you. So you are still open to being sued in civil court.

I think we’re about to find out how it all works. Wouldn’t a jury verdict stating a person acted in self-defense mean the same? The question is, can a jury find a person not guilty of murder without ever stating they acted in self-defense?

.

hyperstyx
03-26-2012, 00:04
Read Gutmacher's blog that addresses the post-arrest, pre-trial evidentiary hearing in which defendant must, by preponderance of evidence, prove lawful self-defense action. Failure here results in the case proceeding to trial.

I submitted a Q on the site regarding maintenance of civil immunity under circumstance of trial and NOT GUILTY verdict. I'll advise if answered...then ask about the effect Supremacy Clause/Fed Preemption could have on Fl statutes if they proceed with criminal or civil action.

c6601a
03-26-2012, 02:28
The national news has said nothing about this."On their own, the national new did not say anything about this case either. It took the family 2 weeks of actively campaigning before the media started to take notice. Once one major program picked up the story, the rest of them followed.

That is how it always works. In almost all cases, if you are the victim of a crime, you need to work to get the media interested. Some victims have an easier time than others because their stories "sell" better.

If one of the family members of one of the victims from Chicago wants to put in the hard work to get the media to take notice, they can get the national media to fake outrage over their situation as well.

c6601a
03-26-2012, 02:33
All news reports I have seen said it was in the chest. But, I don't see where shot placement has to do with the case.Being shot in the front or the back can make all the difference in the world. You will have a really hard time making a case for self defense after you shoot someone in the back of the chest or back of the head.

G30Mike
03-26-2012, 02:42
FWIW.....

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

c6601a
03-26-2012, 02:44
He says that the ability to sue someone is a right that cannot be denied by a state law, ie. is protected by the ConstitutionI have a hard time agreeing with him. The constitution does not grant immunity from civil suit for individuals such as police, prosecutors, judges etc. Yet state and federal laws grant immunity of various classes if individuals and that immunity has been well tested all the way up to the Supreme Court. What these laws are doing is granting immunity to certain individuals in certain situations. Nothing unconstitutional about it.

You can approach this from a second angle. Most states have laws limiting the maximum judgement in civil cases. If being able to sue is a constitutional right, then limiting the judgements to the point where suing does not make sense would be a violation of that right. Yet the judgement caps have never been successfully challenged, indicating that there is no such right in the constitution.

G30Mike
03-26-2012, 02:48
Another interesting read....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/m-what_if_trayvon_had_been_white_and_the_shooter_black.html

series1811
03-26-2012, 04:48
There is something about news reportiing, that no matter how many times we read an article about something we personally know about, and see how badly the reporter screwed up the facts, that causes us to still believe everything we read.

Kurt Russell put it best on the Tonight Show one time when I was watching. He said, when standing in line at the grocery store, he would read an article about himself or Goldie Hawn, and some affair or something he was supposed to be having and say, "Those lying bastards. Where do they get this stupid stuff? He said he would then turn the page, read an article about some other actor doing something crazy ad think, "I knew he was like that." :supergrin:

Misty02
03-26-2012, 04:50
Read Gutmacher's blog that addresses the post-arrest, pre-trial evidentiary hearing in which defendant must, by preponderance of evidence, prove lawful self-defense action. Failure here results in the case proceeding to trial.

I submitted a Q on the site regarding maintenance of civil immunity under circumstance of trial and NOT GUILTY verdict. I'll advise if answered...then ask about the effect Supremacy Clause/Fed Preemption could have on Fl statutes if they proceed with criminal or civil action.

Thank you for posing the question! :) At times knowing which questions to ask is as important as knowing the answer (you can’t get to one without the other).

.

Bren
03-26-2012, 04:52
Thanks Zimmerman ? You're kidding me right ?

Say thank you to the media for printing spins and flat out lies, as well as idiots believing that and making statements based on it.


Oh, wait, yours was one of those too, oops.

How dare someone legally defend themselves, and to make it worse he just decided to have the media and other's so FOS its unreal, print up all that crap.

:upeyes:


You are partially right - but whether Zimmerman turns out to be justified or not, his stupidity led him to create the situation where it wouldn't have been a problem, even in the version most favorable to him. Add to that, that he's a mall-ninja, cop-wannabe, neighborhood watch "captain" and he gets plenty of blame from me.

However, you are right that most of this story is anti-gunners and the race-profiteers using it for their own purposes.

Bren
03-26-2012, 04:55
Read Gutmacher's blog that addresses the post-arrest, pre-trial evidentiary hearing in which defendant must, by preponderance of evidence, prove lawful self-defense action. Failure here results in the case proceeding to trial.


It's not really clear that's a correct procedural explanation (in fact, not clear what the procedure is at all) in the version KY copied from Florida. Do you ahve a link to the blog you are talking about? (I haven't read the whole thread)

I can see an argument for that version, since the preliminary hearing finds probable cause and the statute requires probable cause to believe the person was not justified for the charge to go forward. However, the immunity part requires a finding that he was justified, which wouldn't be part of a reliminary hearing, unless Florida has a statute that says so.

220-9er
03-26-2012, 06:40
From what I've seen it is unlikely Zimmerman has enough assets for anyone to sue for. The interesting question is; will the family sue the homeowners association? It doesn't seem to be protected against civil action in the SYG law, even if that did apply to the shooter.

slimgoodman
03-26-2012, 08:12
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

Will the Sanford Chief, the prosecutor and DA be investigated on how this case was ORIGINALLY handled. From what I read a Governor appointed special prosecutor and a Federal investigator/prosecutor will examine the facts of a closed case developed by local officials. Does this investigation include the process used by the Sanford PD? IMO the Sanford chief acted on advice from the prosecutor & DA from the outset---what role did the county coroner play if any and did that office have investigative responsibility? Not a student of the law, but many of the actions by local officials don't make sense. As a law abiding citizen, until proven differently, doesn't Martin also get the "presumption of innocense?" If not what was he guilty of? Getting shot dead by a "self appointed" neighborhood watch person, probably known intimately by local police, didn't warrant a VERY DETAILED INVESTIGATION OF EVERYTHING?

slimgoodman
03-26-2012, 08:45
The outsiders are there because, unfortunately, there is a profit to be made from racial tensions, and thats what they do.
Al Sharpton is not a leader, he is a hatemonger...no different from the KKK goons who visited me when I was a teenager, trying to get me to join. I would tell you where I told them they could stick their membership, but it would probably get me a warning for language...

Even now, in 2012, there is still a definite divide between races.
It is not a personal thing...I have friends of color who are BROTHERS to me, I would trust them a hell of a lot more than a lot of my family members.
That being said, it is there. I know it, my friends know it, and everyone else knows it.
All that we can do, IMO, is love each other and obey The Golden Rule, and teach our children that we are ALL God's children...hopefully someday there will be no more of this nonsense.

Until then, honestly, I think the leadership MUST come from those in the Black Community.
It is not a time for emotion, but rather a time for calm, as the investigatory process is allowed to proceed.
A lynch mob mentality is WRONG now, just as it was damn WRONG back in the days when the shoe was on the other foot.

Who are the leaders who would lead?
There is one man who could calm this entire situation with just one press conference.
That man was, in fact, elected to lead this entire country...hopefully he will see the need to weigh in and do so,
before things get even more tragic.


The investigative process DID take place by the Sanford PD, with assistance from the local prosecutor & DA and found "everything OK" with the killing of an innocent young Black man by a self appointed neighborhood watchman. No further investigation would be taking place without public outcry. The lynch mob mentality and other claims may just come from those who seek to protect "the stand your ground law" at all cost regardless of who has to die--innocent or not. Attempting to discredit the public outgry with inflamatory & hate filled statements is one of the tactics used by Hoover & the FBI during times of gross mis conduct by local officials which the FBI usually knew about & turned their heads & ignored until called to accountability by the Justice dept..

slimgoodman
03-26-2012, 09:00
I took it to mean that he believes that Trayvon appears to be a typical teenager, like he'd imagine his own son could look like if he had one.

I agree---I also took his statement to mean exactly that.

slimgoodman
03-26-2012, 09:17
Oh gosh, you're starting to sound like Rodney King's officers' lawyers. They claimed eveyone in the world saw the video and was influenced by the media, do you think they got a fair trial? Do you think the case in Simi Valley was fair?

This is America, the system is built to give everyone a fair trial when you work the process correctly. This "defendant" is no exception. If you "cheat" the process and you try to twist it to your advantage, it's only going to come back to bite you.

To answer your questions---

NO, many pepole think the officers didn't get a fair trial because they wanted NO TRIAL.

YES, many people DO think the Simi Valley case was fair

YES, that same group of people think this "defendant" IS an exception.

YES, this group of people also thinks its OK to cheat the process to get your desired result--if caught make sure you have "plausable deniability" of willful misconduct

hyperstyx
03-26-2012, 10:00
It's not really clear that's a correct procedural explanation (in fact, not clear what the procedure is at all) in the version KY copied from Florida. Do you ahve a link to the blog you are talking about? (I haven't read the whole thread)

I can see an argument for that version, since the preliminary hearing finds probable cause and the statute requires probable cause to believe the person was not justified for the charge to go forward. However, the immunity part requires a finding that he was justified, which wouldn't be part of a reliminary hearing, unless Florida has a statute that says so.

It is asserted that Fl does from an '05 statute revision, SYG.

My residence of record is Fl and I'm functionally familiar with the law, but I was unaware of this particular procedure. Gutmacher words his description as if it's an elective evidentiary procedure by the arrestee/defendant.

Find at floridafirearmslaw.com, Criminal Defense Services Blog.

It was cited and linked previously by another poster.

cphilip
03-26-2012, 10:08
The investigative process DID take place by the Sanford PD, with assistance from the local prosecutor & DA and found "everything OK" with the killing of an innocent young Black man by a self appointed neighborhood watchman. No further investigation would be taking place without public outcry. The lynch mob mentality and other claims may just come from those who seek to protect "the stand your ground law" at all cost regardless of who has to die--innocent or not. Attempting to discredit the public outgry with inflamatory & hate filled statements is one of the tactics used by Hoover & the FBI during times of gross mis conduct by local officials which the FBI usually knew about & turned their heads & ignored until called to accountability by the Justice dept..

Quite a few errors and leaps of faith judgements here..

First of all, the investigation was ongoing. Is still ongoing and has always been ongoing. It had never stopped. It was into the phase it had been turned over to the DA. The investigation was never concluded nor ever has it been. It is ongoing and always has been.

Fact is that eye witness testimony taken on the spot from the only eye witness to the physical altercation verified Mr Zimmermans claim and Mr Zimmermans claims were also backed up by the physical evidence found at the scene... and so he was treated accordingly and is being treated accordingly. The law is working as it was designed. No amount of public outcry can change the facts as known. Nor should they. The law should prevail.

Our judicial system is based upon laws and the legal process. Not public opinion. And thank God that is so. Mr Zimmerman will be investigated and the facts will decide the case. Not your insistence that you know one is innocent and the other guilty.

I'll remind you that we all tried and convicted the Duke lacrosse players just like this before and found out later we were totally mislead. We pretty much ruined those kids lives. Don't make the same mistake here. Let it play out and keep an open mind.

B.Reid
03-26-2012, 10:15
This is just the preamble to the next gun ban!

hyperstyx
03-26-2012, 10:22
Thank you for posing the question! :) At times knowing which questions to ask is as important as knowing the answer (you can’t get to one without the other).

.

:cool:

Pinballing in my head for a couple of days is a thought fraught with irony: with existing general circumstance, would Martin be covered under the Fl statutes had he killed Zimmerman via blunt force trauma? Hmmm...

bear62
03-26-2012, 10:36
You are partially right - but whether Zimmerman turns out to be justified or not, his stupidity led him to create the situation where it wouldn't have been a problem, even in the version most favorable to him. Add to that, that he's a mall-ninja, cop-wannabe, neighborhood watch "captain" and he gets plenty of blame from me.

However, you are right that most of this story is anti-gunners and the race-profiteers using it for their own purposes.

I agree with you Bren......... Zimmerman's actions were stupid. No one knows exactly what happened, but Zimmerman put himself in harms way ........ and it may end up hurting a lot of us who carry daily. :steamed::steamed:

More and more liberal newspapers (are there any other kind) are coming into play on this story ...... I doubt Zimmerman is play with a full deck.

Misty02
03-26-2012, 11:09
:cool:

Pinballing in my head for a couple of days is a thought fraught with irony: with existing general circumstance, would Martin be covered under the Fl statutes had he killed Zimmerman via blunt force trauma? Hmmm...

I would say yes. I still maintain that it is highly possible both were acting in self-defense.

.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 11:29
Another interesting read....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/m-what_if_trayvon_had_been_white_and_the_shooter_black.html

Seriously? :rofl:

Awful, awful article. Where are you finding these articles, in what circles do you surf? LOL

kensteele
03-26-2012, 11:35
Will the Sanford Chief, the prosecutor and DA be investigated on how this case was ORIGINALLY handled. From what I read a Governor appointed special prosecutor and a Federal investigator/prosecutor will examine the facts of a closed case developed by local officials. Does this investigation include the process used by the Sanford PD? IMO the Sanford chief acted on advice from the prosecutor & DA from the outset---what role did the county coroner play if any and did that office have investigative responsibility? Not a student of the law, but many of the actions by local officials don't make sense. As a law abiding citizen, until proven differently, doesn't Martin also get the "presumption of innocense?" If not what was he guilty of? Getting shot dead by a "self appointed" neighborhood watch person, probably known intimately by local police, didn't warrant a VERY DETAILED INVESTIGATION OF EVERYTHING?

I guess we'll have to wait to see the results of the Special Prosecutor that would give us a better idea of what happened in the Sanford investiagtion. It is these questions that are most responsible for the uproar and what makes it quite different from any other recent case. IIRC, the Chief tried to slam the door on all of these and put it to bed. That's the first impression I got.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 11:36
the investigative process did take place by the sanford pd, with assistance from the local prosecutor & da and found "everything ok" with the killing of an innocent young black man by a self appointed neighborhood watchman. No further investigation would be taking place without public outcry. The lynch mob mentality and other claims may just come from those who seek to protect "the stand your ground law" at all cost regardless of who has to die--innocent or not. Attempting to discredit the public outgry with inflamatory & hate filled statements is one of the tactics used by hoover & the fbi during times of gross mis conduct by local officials which the fbi usually knew about & turned their heads & ignored until called to accountability by the justice dept..

+1 +1

Glock30Eric
03-26-2012, 11:40
I have a bad feeling about this case. I think some of area in America might will have to burn down due to the outcome of this case; please don't forget what happened to the H street at DC.

I think Zimmerman has the right to use the lethal force to defend his life.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 11:44
Quite a few errors and leaps of faith judgements here..

First of all, the investigation was ongoing. Is still ongoing and has always been ongoing. It had never stopped. It was into the phase it had been turned over to the DA. The investigation was never concluded nor ever has it been. It is ongoing and always has been.

Fact is that eye witness testimony taken on the spot from the only eye witness to the physical altercation verified Mr Zimmermans claim and Mr Zimmermans claims were also backed up by the physical evidence found at the scene... and so he was treated accordingly and is being treated accordingly. The law is working as it was designed. No amount of public outcry can change the facts as known. Nor should they. The law should prevail.

Our judicial system is based upon laws and the legal process. Not public opinion. And thank God that is so. Mr Zimmerman will be investigated and the facts will decide the case. Not your insistence that you know one is innocent and the other guilty.

I'll remind you that we all tried and convicted the Duke lacrosse players just like this before and found out later we were totally mislead. We pretty much ruined those kids lives. Don't make the same mistake here. Let it play out and keep an open mind.
IIRC, Sanford police chief tried to slam the door on this case and put it to bed. He basically got up in front of the community and told them he couldn't find anything else and was wrapping it up (maybe even sending it on). If anyone else has anything to add, let me know...but we're done here. Zman is a freeman.

when he pulled that stunt, everyone went off. the lid blew off because the chief could screw it down tight. there were claims of cover-up and that the department didn't work hard enough to find the facts and get at the truth. the chief basically resigned.

the special prosecutor is starting with a clean state and is basically doing all the hard work that sanford never bothered to do. something things we'll learn. something things (like samples and other evidence) are all but lost and cannot be recovered. the special posecutor is claiming the evidence is overwhelming and flowing which indicates to me sanford did a poor job. instead they wrapped it up with a bow and call it a day (self-defense) which caused a lot of people to be insensed. bet they won't do that again.

whoflungdo
03-26-2012, 11:45
The investigative process DID take place by the Sanford PD, with assistance from the local prosecutor & DA and found "everything OK" with the killing of an innocent young Black man by a self appointed neighborhood watchman. No further investigation would be taking place without public outcry. The lynch mob mentality and other claims may just come from those who seek to protect "the stand your ground law" at all cost regardless of who has to die--innocent or not. Attempting to discredit the public outgry with inflamatory & hate filled statements is one of the tactics used by Hoover & the FBI during times of gross mis conduct by local officials which the FBI usually knew about & turned their heads & ignored until called to accountability by the Justice dept..

You have several points wrong. 1) that is not what the Sanford Police department found. 2) Zimmerman was not self appointed. 3) Public Outcry like with the Duke Lacrosse players and the Tawana Brawley case in NY where they alleged perpetrators were tried and convicted in the press wrongfully? 4) no heads were turned in this case. The police have investigated and still are investigating. If they had enough evidence to arrest and charge Zimmerman for any wrong doing, they would have.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 11:46
:cool:

Pinballing in my head for a couple of days is a thought fraught with irony: with existing general circumstance, would Martin be covered under the Fl statutes had he killed Zimmerman via blunt force trauma? Hmmm...

do you have to ask?

obviously not since both people can't be covered.

that's the central problem we are dealing with.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 11:53
sorry for all the posts in a row, i was laying low until april 10. i got what i wanted: someone other than the sanford police to propery and fully invesitagate this case from an unbiased perspective. i got that. and i am satisfied if she calls this go or no go although something tells me the rest of the country won't settle for a no go. i believe the office is independent and capable of reviewing all the evidence fairly and is able to properly apply florida state laws in the proper context.

however, if it were my call, this would go to trial. i believe under the limited and few circumstances i am aware of, only a jury of your peers should make the judgment decision if you violate the law or not.

ATW525
03-26-2012, 12:04
This shouldn't be unexpected to anyone following this thread.

Zimmerman claimed Martin was going for his (Zimmerman's) gun:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239#.T3CvJTv--8A

Edit: Also mentioned... Trayvon Martin's suspension was for drug related reasons.

cphilip
03-26-2012, 12:25
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

Another report indicating support for Zimmerman's story that Trayvon Martin attacked him and was the aggressor. And about Trayvon's suspension for a drug related infraction.

SC Tiger
03-26-2012, 12:39
This shouldn't be unexpected to anyone following this thread.

Zimmerman claimed Martin was going for his (Zimmerman's) gun:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239#.T3CvJTv--8A

Edit: Also mentioned... Trayvon Martin's suspension was for drug related reasons.

Massad Ayoob has an article on-line (can't remember the site) that I read last night through a link on Facebook. On it he states that Zimmerman's gun (a Kel-Tec PF9) had a full magazine and (apparently) an empty casing in the chamber, as if it didn't cycle. He states this is consistent with a weapon that is fired when someone has a hold of the slide (as if they were wrestling for the gun). His main point was that we don't know what happened so we need to wait for the evidence to be presented.

zackwatt
03-26-2012, 12:43
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

Another report indicating support for Zimmerman's story that Trayvon Martin attacked him and was the aggressor. And about Trayvon's suspension for a drug related infraction.

This is a very interesting article. It certainly paints a different picture then the rest of the media's "information"...

G30Mike
03-26-2012, 13:07
Seriously? :rofl:

Awful, awful article. Where are you finding these articles, in what circles do you surf? LOL

Came across that over at M4Carbine forums. Didn't say I agreed with it or anything, just that I came across it and posted it. :D
I'm waiting for more details and FACTS to make my own opinion. I don't just read news articles and form an opinion based on the media.

Roger1079
03-26-2012, 13:51
The only thing that is 100% certain in this case is that Zimmerman used poor judgment getting out of his car and persuing Martin after the dispatcher suggested against it, especially with a firearm. Everything else is an uncertainty and we will probably never have the evidence to judge otherwise without making assumptions.

We do not know what led up to the altercation. We do know Martin had Zimmerman on the ground (not necessarily incapacitated). We do know Zimmerman shot Martin and killed him.

That is the extent of the evidence that the public has seen, aside from the media circus which barely ever tells the true story without the sensationalistic spin.

My feeling is that if the 6 eyewitness accounts that the police report indicates showed Zimmerman as the aggressor, and guilty of a crime, he would have been arrested that evening and charged with manslaughter at the minimum.

As the saying goes though, there are three sides to every story. In this case, Zimmerman's, Martin's, and the truth. One account we have heard, and the other two we may never.

Again, as far as I am concerned, if the moron would have just stayed in his car that young man would still be alive and Mr. Zimmerman wouldn't be having to live with taking a life regardless of the circumstances.

rhikdavis
03-26-2012, 13:58
Wheres the outrage for the 2 white british tourists who were shot to death after they wandered into the projects in Sarasota....

hyperstyx
03-26-2012, 14:09
do you have to ask?

obviously not since both people can't be covered.

that's the central problem we are dealing with.

Of course not, however...

There would be but one story version, Martin's, and that fact is not to be underestimated. He would articulate his concern/ fear of Z's following (related as chasing?) him...as supported by the phone call to the girl friend. Martin's perception of events and story of how the (thus far) UNWITNESSED confrontation initially began could reasonably be expected to be substantially different than that provided by Zimmerman...unless you mistakenly believe that perception and objectivity are common to all and result in whole truth and accuracy and nothing but.

Your opinion is no. Mine is maybe, inclined toward probably.

Bren
03-26-2012, 14:09
More and more liberal newspapers (are there any other kind) are coming into play on this story ...... I doubt Zimmerman is play with a full deck.

Blood is in the water and the anti-gun sharks can smell it.

vkscott
03-26-2012, 14:36
Reckon what the media will do this?
http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=16252

mrsurfboard
03-26-2012, 15:00
Blood is in the water and the anti-gun sharks can smell it.

Big time. Obama will use this to justify further gun control in his second term, some states will shy away or reduce their CC laws, and nationwide concealed carry is dead as a door nail.

ATW525
03-26-2012, 15:12
Dead teen's mom files for Trademarks in her son's name:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

PEC-Memphis
03-26-2012, 15:16
The SYG / Castle laws state that if someone is justified in using legal force, justified self defense and just not being found guilty of a charge in court arent exactly the same.

I'm not following what you are trying to say. "Legal Force" is not a term I'm familiar with.

In simplified terms, "stand your ground" states that you do not have a "duty to retreat" before resorting to potentially lethal force. The "castle part" varies by state - in some cases it applies to "stand your ground" in your residence or business - in other states it applies to any place where you are legally allowed; and some states offer "protection from civil suit" unless found guilty.

"In duty to retreat" states, the use of potentially lethal force must be a "last available defense".

I understand that some states offer protection from civil suit, and a civil suit filed would be "thrown out" at the stated level based upon state law. However, there are many in the legal profession whose opinion is that this would not stand when appealed to a Federal District court (for the reasons stated in the earlier post).

ZombieKing
03-26-2012, 15:17
Wheres the outrage for the 2 white british tourists who were shot to death after they wandered into the projects in Sarasota....

The US turned down the UK's request for help to invade Sarasota in revenge. :supergrin:

Wake_jumper
03-26-2012, 15:35
Another interesting read....

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/m-what_if_trayvon_had_been_white_and_the_shooter_black.html

Good article, thanks for sharing. This is the cause celeb that the rabid left has been waiting for. The President should be calling for calm... instead he says that Martin is the son he never had. In the mean time, the Black Panthers has mobilized 10,000 men in Florida, Georgia and Alabama and put a $10,000 bounty on Zimm's head (dead or alive I assume) and are calling their troops to search him out. If that isn't a reverse of the old southern lynching’s, I don't know what is. Our POTUS and Holder are strangely silent. Are they really going to let the Panthers act on their vigilantism?
This has the potential to spiral farther out of control, and could spread. National leaders should not be fanning the flames.

Bruce M
03-26-2012, 16:04
Dead teen's mom files for Trademarks in her son's name:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123


Wow - How Klassy is that?? Admittedly a good financial move - who knows if Rodney had trademarked "Can't we all just get along" he might have gone another year or eighteen months before he was broke.

Misty02
03-26-2012, 16:10
Dead teen's mom files for Trademarks in her son's name:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123


For real?

.

G30Mike
03-26-2012, 16:44
My, my, how the tables are turning.....
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

kensteele
03-26-2012, 16:49
Wheres the outrage for the 2 white british tourists who were shot to death after they wandered into the projects in Sarasota....

Give me the name of the Sarasota police chief department that is allegedly protecting the shooter or refusing to charge him or find him (the shooter) and I will speak out about it immediately. Otherwise, my sympathies to the family of the victims, I hope the criminals pay. Not sure what you want us to get all bent out of shape about, justice is working in Sarasota, no? Is there a problem in Sarasota? If not, 99% are satisfied with what's going in Sarasota re: investigation; if you're part of that 1% and you're unhappy the Sarasota criminals are getting "mistreated", speak up and be specific and let us know. Otherwise let's not get distracted (let the good officers do their job) and get back to the other coast were we DO have a current real problem.

jdavionic
03-26-2012, 16:49
For real?

.

Poor woman...she's devastated...how much can she profit from her son's death?

Blackhawk2001
03-26-2012, 16:51
Anybody want to read the initial responding officers' reports?

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

kensteele
03-26-2012, 17:00
Dead teen's mom files for Trademarks in her son's name:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

So do you believe everthing (spin) the media prints or just some of it?

You never know what lawyers will have you do. Maybe you need it to print up tshirts or maybe a movie producer approached them and these are the right and proper steps. Like all other stuff, lawyers have power of atty and complete a lot of stuff with minimal involvement from the parents, that is what they are paid to do.

"Justice for Trayvon" trademark seems like a good idea if you want to start a legal fund or create a website and don't want predators to get to it first before you do.

G30Mike
03-26-2012, 17:01
Poor woman...she's devastated...how much can she profit from her son's death?

Guess it makes up for all that Obamoney she didn't get.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 17:07
Anybody want to read the initial responding officers' reports?

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Interesting. I don't know if that is the extend of the initial reports but I didn't see where anyone asked any questions of Zman at the scene. Did I miss that?

kensteele
03-26-2012, 17:16
So quick question. If you chase someone down and that person runs and you can't catch him and you break it off and head back to your car, is it also broken off for the prey as well? Are they supposed to know that you have "given up" and de-escalated the situation and not take the opportunity to attack you with your back turned?

I read that somewhere and thought it was interesting and hadn't been brought up yet. I know if someone was chasing me and they made the mistake of turning their back on me, I'm probably won't let let the opportunity pass, depends on where I am and if I saw a gun and if I'm trapped and have to turn around, etc.

Guess it's going to depend on how the state looks at it. Certainly you don't think the event was over and ended just because Zman got winded do you? My guess is if Martin had kept running in his direction, eventually the cops + Zman would have resumed and caught up to Martin which means to Martin, it was all one long crazy event with no breaks. To the community, it doesn't look like a chase started and then ended and then Martin retailated. If you start chasing someone, probably for the next several minutes, it's on. Question is going to be, does Zman begin new rights....I dunno.

As to what was said and when it was said and how that plays into everything, I dunno either.

whoflungdo
03-26-2012, 17:45
So quick question. If you chase someone down and that person runs and you can't catch him and you break it off and head back to your car, is it also broken off for the prey as well? Are they supposed to know that you have "given up" and de-escalated the situation and not take the opportunity to attack you with your back turned?

I read that somewhere and thought it was interesting and hadn't been brought up yet. I know if someone was chasing me and they made the mistake of turning their back on me, I'm probably won't let let the opportunity pass, depends on where I am and if I saw a gun and if I'm trapped and have to turn around, etc.

Guess it's going to depend on how the state looks at it. Certainly you don't think the event was over and ended just because Zman got winded do you? My guess is if Martin had kept running in his direction, eventually the cops + Zman would have resumed and caught up to Martin which means to Martin, it was all one long crazy event with no breaks. To the community, it doesn't look like a chase started and then ended and then Martin retailated. If you start chasing someone, probably for the next several minutes, it's on. Question is going to be, does Zman begin new rights....I dunno.

As to what was said and when it was said and how that plays into everything, I dunno either.


I'm sorry. I must of missed the link or cite where it was stated that Zimmerman chased Trayvon down.

As far as if the cops and Zimmerman would have resumed and caught up to Martin, you obviously haven't chased very many people. You don't always catch them especially at night.

ballr4lyf
03-26-2012, 18:15
So quick question. If you chase someone down and that person runs and you can't catch him and you break it off and head back to your car, is it also broken off for the prey as well? Are they supposed to know that you have "given up" and de-escalated the situation and not take the opportunity to attack you with your back turned?

In the situation you describe, absolutely.

If the person chasing you has de-escalated, and you go back and attack your chaser while his back is turned, or even if you attack head on, you are now the aggressor. You are no longer able to claim self defense because you are the aggressor. You became the aggressor because you let your pride and machissmo overrun common sense (i.e. a "reasonable and prudent" judgement of the current situation on your part).

If you do not realize this, you do not need to be carrying a gun (not an attack on you, just a comment in general).

bear62
03-26-2012, 18:36
I have no idea about Trayvon (sp??) was a thug or not ..... but doesn't anyone see how stupid it was for Zimmerman to place himself in harm's way.

I carry almost 100% of the time....... I'm very aware of my "situation" and don't play law enforcement. Have I ever called 911....... absolutely ..... Do I chase guys in "hoodies" down the street...... Absolutely NOT.

Zimmerman was an idiot........ and he has hurt all gunnies.

ballr4lyf
03-26-2012, 18:42
I have no idea about Trayvon (sp??) was a thug or not ..... but doesn't anyone see how stupid it was for Zimmerman to place himself in harm's way.

I carry almost 100% of the time....... I'm very aware of my "situation" and don't play law enforcement. Have I ever called 911....... absolutely ..... Do I chase guys in "hoodies" down the street...... Absolutely NOT.

Zimmerman was an idiot........ and he has hurt all gunnies.

I agree. What Zman did was stupid. However, "stupid" is not against the law.

bear62
03-26-2012, 18:51
I agree. What Zman did was stupid. However, "stupid" is not against the law.

Maybe I should have used "lacked good judgement or common sense" and that of of course is not against the law. Just wish CCW permit holders always use "common sense." :wavey:

cphilip
03-26-2012, 18:53
Not sure if I would have done it but... it was exactly what this Neighbor hood watch does. As was described by a fellow neighborhood watchman of his. They absolutely would confront and ask suspicious people who they were and what they were doing there. And there is nothing illegal about it. You might not find it smart but it is legal. And its nothing less than you might do if someone was Trespassing on your property. I have done so several times while openly armed confronted trespassers on my property. And run them off. Could have gone bad for me too.

And as far as following him it appears that was less than two minutes of time. And it appears to me that he was already on foot following him when the subject was discussed with the dispatcher. His account indicates to me that he was on the phone with dispatch AS he exited his vehicle. But... they also indicate they don't know what happened for about one more minute. In this time Zimmerman says he had lost sight of him and was returning to his car. All within the next minute. So the following was very brief and so was the exit from the car. I take this all from this part of the account:

Follow this very brief time line carefully... we are talking about probably three minutes.


Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Misty02
03-26-2012, 19:39
Give me the name of the Sarasota police chief department that is allegedly protecting the shooter or refusing to charge him or find him (the shooter) and I will speak out about it immediately. Otherwise, my sympathies to the family of the victims, I hope the criminals pay. Not sure what you want us to get all bent out of shape about, justice is working in Sarasota, no? Is there a problem in Sarasota? If not, 99% are satisfied with what's going in Sarasota re: investigation; if you're part of that 1% and you're unhappy the Sarasota criminals are getting "mistreated", speak up and be specific and let us know. Otherwise let's not get distracted (let the good officers do their job) and get back to the other coast were we DO have a current real problem.

What makes you think the police is protecting the shooter and not just doing their job as they are supposed to? Who said they are refusing to charge him? They were still investigating until not long ago and they didn’t have sufficient evidence to arrest. How do you know who the criminal is here, or even if there is one?

Poor woman...she's devastated...how much can she profit from her son's death?

For a couple of days now I’m beginning to feel less respect for the family. I’ve put myself in their place from early on, I cannot imagine me permitting some of the things that are being said and done in the name of my son. I would have denounced anyone that in any way shape or form tainted his name and memory with hate or by promoting violence on to others. No outsiders would be allowed to leave that tied to his memory. This last straw and shirts that are on sale and the like, pretty much broke the camels back.

So do you believe everthing (spin) the media prints or just some of it?

You never know what lawyers will have you do. Maybe you need it to print up tshirts or maybe a movie producer approached them and these are the right and proper steps. Like all other stuff, lawyers have power of atty and complete a lot of stuff with minimal involvement from the parents, that is what they are paid to do.

"Justice for Trayvon" trademark seems like a good idea if you want to start a legal fund or create a website and don't want predators to get to it first before you do.

Even if I signed something that gave them such power and couldn’t stop them, I would publicly condemn the action and make sure everyone knew I didn’t condone it. Shame them into backing off or just fire them!


.

G30Mike
03-26-2012, 19:49
So do you believe everthing (spin) the media prints or just some of it?

You never know what lawyers will have you do. Maybe you need it to print up tshirts or maybe a movie producer approached them and these are the right and proper steps. Like all other stuff, lawyers have power of atty and complete a lot of stuff with minimal involvement from the parents, that is what they are paid to do.

"Justice for Trayvon" trademark seems like a good idea if you want to start a legal fund or create a website and don't want predators to get to it first before you do.

Plus the money to pay said lawyers has to come from somewhere. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were the ones who suggested on copywriting his name and the phrases.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 19:50
I'm sorry. I must of missed the link or cite where it was stated that Zimmerman chased Trayvon down.

As far as if the cops and Zimmerman would have resumed and caught up to Martin, you obviously haven't chased very many people. You don't always catch them especially at night.

No I don't chase very many people.

When two people are in one part of the neighborhood and one person starts running and in a few minutes both people end up in the same (another) part of the neighborhood together, I can't help but think one person chased down the other. I dunno, perhaps it was a coincidence they end up together....fighting.

Z28ricer
03-26-2012, 19:57
No I don't chase very many people.

When two people are in one part of the neighborhood and one person starts running and in a few minutes both people end up in the same (another) part of the neighborhood together, I can't help but think one person chased down the other. I dunno, perhaps it was a coincidence they end up together....fighting.

Yeah man, what a coincidence they ended up right by the guys vehicle.

Must have lured Martin in with candy and toys.

Or drugs and alcohol.

:upeyes:

kensteele
03-26-2012, 20:06
What makes you think the police is protecting the shooter and not just doing their job as they are supposed to? Who said they are refusing to charge him? They were still investigating until not long ago and they didn’t have sufficient evidence to arrest. How do you know who the criminal is here, or even if there is one?



I don't know any of the answers (that's why I asked) but apparently the OP does since he is asking where is the outrage.

But I must have misunderstood him. There is national outrage over the Travyvon Martin case (right or wrong) because there is a collective community feeling that started with the idea the police is protecting the shooting. Not sure why there should be similar national outrage over the Sarasota incident.

The OP is asking why not outrage over the Sarasota shooter case? My response is why would there be community outrage if the community does not feel the shooter is being protected by the police? I'm asking the shooter why exactly does he feel the community should be outraged over the Sarasota case the same way they are outraged over the Martin case? In my mind, the only community similarities are they should be upset that a crime was committed and have sympathy for the victims and their family. Unless I have missed something, that should be the end of the similarities and certainly doesn't warrant rallies, extended national media, calling the fed, etc.

But I suspect I will be proven wrong and the OP will answer those questions that I asked and show us all where the Sarasota incident should turn into a huge national deal with similar outrage. I disagree. I think the Sarasota deal (AFAIK) has been handled correctly and does not require any extenuating actions by the public. There is no need to call the FBI, show this on the TV everyday, articles all over the world, social media buzzing....not necessary.

Personally, I don't even know why the OP brought it up (or any other of the thousands of violent crimes that criminals commit on a daily because for decades and decades). Maybe to cause confusion? They are all unfortunate and we all want to see the criminals brought to justice. Other than that, I don't know what else the OP wants. If the OP doesn't understand the outrage stemming from the Travyon Martin case, just ask. I'll be happy to explain it to him. But I'm pretty sure he won't like what he hears and will probably disagree which is fine.

jdavionic
03-26-2012, 20:15
For a couple of days now I’m beginning to feel less respect for the family. I’ve put myself in their place from early on, I cannot imagine me permitting some of the things that are being said and done in the name of my son. I would have denounced anyone that in any way shape or form tainted his name and memory with hate or by promoting violence on to others. No outsiders would be allowed to leave that tied to his memory. This last straw and shirts that are on sale and the like, pretty much broke the camels back.


If I truly thought someone killed my child and was getting away with it, the last thing I would be interested in would be publicity.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 20:16
For a couple of days now I’m beginning to feel less respect for the family. I’ve put myself in their place from early on, I cannot imagine me permitting some of the things that are being said and done in the name of my son. I would have denounced anyone that in any way shape or form tainted his name and memory with hate or by promoting violence on to others. No outsiders would be allowed to leave that tied to his memory. This last straw and shirts that are on sale and the like, pretty much broke the camels back.



Even if I signed something that gave them such power and couldn’t stop them, I would publicly condemn the action and make sure everyone knew I didn’t condone it. Shame them into backing off or just fire them!


.

My guess is this is so out of control, it's likely not much you can do or say about anything. Certainly you shouldn't feel the family is orchestrating and conducting all this. When and if riots starts, can't blame the family. It's only at that point you should expect them to start denouncing things. When looking at people's actions, I don't put them in my shoes because I know different people do different things and not always the same way I will.

We don't know everything the family likes or dislikes, condems or supports. Only the media controls what get outs. If it suits their purpose, you read about it. Since I don't really know for sure, I tend to dismiss it. Perhaps we'll hear the family discuss the trademark issue at their next speaking engagement.

I'm still waiting on what is important to this case, the facts and the evidence. And I'm getting that soon since the investigation has been shifted to an authority that has the true capability of deilvering it.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 20:18
Plus the money to pay said lawyers has to come from somewhere. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were the ones who suggested on copywriting his name and the phrases.

You honestly think the family thought of this? Strictly for the purposes of making money? Has this ever happened before in any other case? I'm just curious how you know this or why you think this?

Z28ricer
03-26-2012, 20:20
I'm still waiting on what is important to this case, the facts and the evidence. And I'm getting that soon since the investigation has been shifted to an authority that has the true capability of deilvering it.

And yet when they find the exact same thing, further illustrating that this was just a bunch of media bull, as well as people making false accusations and lying, you still probably wont admit you were wrong, just hide behind it claiming the "authority that has the true capability of delivering it" investigated further, when in reality they didnt do anything more and the facts still remain.

HKLovingIT
03-26-2012, 20:20
Ken Steele,

Earlier in the thread you stated that you felt ZMan was given special treatment in this by the police, etc. Having read the responding officer's reports do you still feel this to be the case?

If so, what special treatment do you feel Zman was/has been given?

By whom? The responding officers, the investigators, the DA, all of the above?

What motive for dong so?

Trying to understand your thoughts on this particular point you mentioned a few times. I'd be happy to read any links etc. that offer information on this aspect. I'm not familiar with Florida law in regards to what happens with a guy who is not formally charged yet but is under investigation and pending review by the DA.

Thanks,

HK

Z28ricer
03-26-2012, 20:21
You honestly think the family thought of this? Strictly for the purposes of making money? Has this ever happened before in any other case? I'm just curious how you know this or why you think this?

He said that the lawyers suggested it.


Now I see why you're so easily duped by the media.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 20:21
If I truly thought someone killed my child and was getting away with it, the last thing I would be interested in would be publicity.

Me too. Sometimes you keep it a big secret, sometimes it gets out.

HKLovingIT
03-26-2012, 20:23
You honestly think the family thought of this? Strictly for the purposes of making money? Has this ever happened before in any other case? I'm just curious how you know this or why you think this?


I think they did the trademark to prevent others from profiting from his name, or using his name and likeness without their permission. I agree with them doing that.

If something like that happened to a family member of mine and it turned into a media superstorm I would suggest the same to protect his name from use by people looking to make a buck off of t-shirts and other junk.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 20:26
Ken Steele,

Earlier in the thread you stated that you felt ZMan was given special treatment in this by the police, etc. Having read the responding officer's reports do you still feel this to be the case?

If so, what special treatment do you feel Zman was/has been given?

By whom? The responding officers, the investigators, the DA, all of the above?

What motive for dong so?

Trying to understand your thoughts on this particular point you mentioned a few times. I'd be happy to read any links etc. that offer information on this aspect. I'm not familiar with Florida law in regards to what happens with a guy who is not formally charged yet but is under investigation and pending review by the DA.

Thanks,

HK

So that I can know what you are asking exactly, point out the post to me that you are referring to please. That way, we can keep it in context.

If you are quibbling over the word "special" just let me know.

Is it not clear to you that the state of FL has removed the investigation from the city of Sanford and started a brand new investigation with a special prosecutor, why exactly do you think they did this?

Z28ricer
03-26-2012, 20:28
So that I can know what you are asking exactly, point out the post to me that you are referring to please. That way, we can keep it in context.

If you are quibbling over the word "special" just let me know.

Is it not clear to you that the state of FL has removed the investigation from the city of Sanford and started a brand new investigation with a special prosecutor, why exactly do you think they did this?

To waste funds that could have been used for something productive, due to a bunch of media and racial liars creating a disturbance.

HKLovingIT
03-26-2012, 20:33
HK Asked:

Ken Steele,

Earlier in the thread you stated that you felt ZMan was given special treatment in this by the police, etc. Having read the responding officer's reports do you still feel this to be the case?

If so, what special treatment do you feel Zman was/has been given?

By whom? The responding officers, the investigators, the DA, all of the above?

What motive for dong so?

Trying to understand your thoughts on this particular point you mentioned a few times. I'd be happy to read any links etc. that offer information on this aspect. I'm not familiar with Florida law in regards to what happens with a guy who is not formally charged yet but is under investigation and pending review by the DA.

Thanks,

HK


Ken requested:

So that I can know what you are asking exactly, point out the post to me that you are referring to please. That way, we can keep it in context.

If you are quibbling over the word "special" just let me know.

Is it not clear to you that the state of FL has removed the investigation from the city of Sanford and started a brand new investigation with a special prosecutor, why exactly do you think they did this?

In answer to above: To try to keep people calm.

#588 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18753531&postcount=588)
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

#590 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18753536&postcount=590)
Sounds like any other day in FL. Not a problem with that. I think that was the problem in the beginning: why should Zman get special treatment, why not just treat him like the thousands of other FL residents.

I agree with you, when he pulled the trigger, he ended his life as we know it from that point on.

jdavionic
03-26-2012, 20:34
Me too. Sometimes you keep it a big secret, sometimes it gets out.

Our forum rules prohibit me from getting into what I would or would not do. However I assure you that neither my wife or me would be interested in capitalizing off the child's name. I would have one interest and one only...and I would never stop in pursuing it.

HKLovingIT
03-26-2012, 20:39
Our forum rules prohibit me from getting into what I would or would not do. However I assure you that neither my wife or me would be interested in capitalizing off the child's name. I would have one interest and one only...and I would never stop in pursuing it.


Well, I don't think the family did that to make money. I believe they did it to stop other people from using his name and likeness to make money. You wouldn't want all kinds of people putting a relative's picture and name on t-shirts and selling them, especially if his life ended in circumstances such as this. Until I see otherwise I will assume they did it for the same reasons any parent would. To keep parasites from trying to make a buck off of their loss.

Note for my sons: If I die of a heart attack servicing the UCLA Women's Cheerleading squad, by all means my boys, please make posters and t-shirts with my likeness and name on it. Use the funds from that to erect (cough, cough) a statue of me in the town square so that others may marvel at me. :wavey:

kensteele
03-26-2012, 20:45
HKLovingIT:

gosh no wonder you don't understand where i am coming from. you think the special investigation is simply to appease the public. while i think it is to do a real investigation and get to the real facts.

in general:

if you believe the sanford police collected all the information properly and did everything they could to get to the facts in this case, then you do not believe zman got special treatment.

if you believe the sanford police did not collect all the information properly or did not do everything they could to get to all the facts, then you believe zman got special treatment.

it's as simple as that.

even if the special prosecution comes to the same conclusion, many can feel like everything was done to ensure all sides were heard and a fair, unbiased conclusion was reached. if zman is innocent, he should earn it, not be given it.

DocCasualty
03-26-2012, 21:04
HKLovingIT:

gosh no wonder you don't understand where i am coming from. you think the special investigation is simply to appease the public. while i think it is to do a real investigation and get to the real facts.

in general:

if you believe the sanford police collected all the information properly and did everything they could to get to the facts in this case, then you do not believe zman got special treatment.

if you believe the sanford police did not collect all the information properly or did not do everything they could to get to all the facts, then you believe zman got special treatment.

it's as simple as that.

even if the special prosecution comes to the same conclusion, many can feel like everything was done to ensure all sides were heard and a fair, unbiased conclusion was reached. if zman is innocent, he should earn it, not be given it.
By this logic, absolutely every matter of police interest should have a special investigation appointed then. Why bother electing officials like sheriffs and prosecuting attorneys, or in this case a mayor who has appointed a police chief?

No, the other poster was correct. This case received inordinate and inappropriate attention for all of the wrong reasons. Now the Governor of FL is forced to address this by appointing a special prosecutor. From what I've read (and none of us has all of the info) it appears that this case was moving through the system just as it should have. Now it appears as if the Halls of Justice have bowed to special interests.

c6601a
03-26-2012, 21:12
If I truly thought someone killed my child and was getting away with it, the last thing I would be interested in would be publicity.Then the person would get away with killing you child. Publicity is what has prevented many a case from going cold and many a killer from getting away with it.

Remember the Drew Peterson case? The cop in Chicago with 1 dead wife and a missing one. The first case of the dead wife was closed as accidental even though her family did not believe it. When the 4th wife disappeared, her family chose to go the publicity route. Even though the missing woman was never found, the publicity led the police to revisit the previous death, exhume the body, do a new autopsy and eventually charge Peterson with her murder.

That is the difference seeking publicity makes. If someone close to me was killed and it appeared that the killer could get away with it, I would be seeking as much publicity as I possibly could, because publicity equals more attention which prevents someone from getting away with a crime. It should not be that way, but it sadly is.

HKLovingIT
03-26-2012, 21:14
HKLovingIT:

gosh no wonder you don't understand where i am coming from. you think the special investigation is simply to appease the public. while i think it is to do a real investigation and get to the real facts.

in general:

if you believe the sanford police collected all the information properly and did everything they could to get to the facts in this case, then you do not believe zman got special treatment.

if you believe the sanford police did not collect all the information properly or did not do everything they could to get to all the facts, then you believe zman got special treatment.

it's as simple as that.

even if the special prosecution comes to the same conclusion, many can feel like everything was done to ensure all sides were heard and a fair, unbiased conclusion was reached. if zman is innocent, he should earn it, not be given it.

Okay, fair enough.

I haven't seen info yet where I could definitively say that they[Sanford] did or did not screw up the collection of evidence on scene and in the subsequent inquiry by detectives. What I have read so far is that the responding officers filled out the on scene reports and turned it over to the investigators. What happened in detail once they took over, I don't know yet till more info comes out.

I'll just add two other possibilities (of many) to the ones you proposed above:

Sanford collected what evidence there was, and they found enough to conclude that the situation is what ZMan said it was based on the physical evidence and witness statements. It is what there is to work with right now, pending other witnesses that come up or ZMan changes his story. Or someone produces some home security camera footage. :dunno:

Or Maybe...

Sanford messed up collecting the evidence or screwed up, not in order to give ZMan special treatment, but just because sometimes people mess up. Again... :dunno:

In regards to taking it out of Sanford's hands...

I do very much believe that the investigation was taken out of the hands of Sanford because it was too hot a potato. If Sanford and the local DA said "Self Defense Justified" the people of Sanford will come unglued right now. Tempers are too hot.

If a special-this-or-that drags it out for 6-12 months, enough to let everyone cool down, then no matter which way they find, the chance of Sanford getting burned to the ground and additional people hurt, is greatly reduced.

Though I don't dispute that having someone with more resources come in and take a fresh look can be good. However, if ZMan was within the law, I'd hate to see it used to nail him with anything that can be thought of just to make people happy. Still I expect him to get charged with something, and to take a plea and go away for a bit.

We'll just have to see which way the evidence leads and how it shakes out politically. I would really like to see a video released of the questioning of ZMan.

kensteele
03-26-2012, 21:18
By this logic, absolutely every matter of police interest should have a special investigation appointed then. Why bother electing officials like sheriffs and prosecuting attorneys, or in this case a mayor who has appointed a police chief?

No, the other poster was correct. This case received inordinate and inappropriate attention for all of the wrong reasons. Now the Governor of FL is forced to address this by appointing a special prosecutor. From what I've read (and none of us has all of the info) it appears that this case was moving through the system just as it should have. Now it appears as if the Halls of Justice have bowed to special interests.

Perhaps. The police chief announcing that he can't find anything else, he's wrapping it up, the shooter says it was self-defense so we believe him, he's going to pass it on to someone else see what else they might find, if you do find anything else, let us know, but we're done, we are not going to arrest zman....if that's cool with you, then yes this case was "moving thru the system just as it should have." Unfortunately a whole bunch of people were not happy with that path. These are the very same people who are quite happy with the path that most investigations take. But to them, this case is unique, deny it all you want. LOL

that's how i heard it, if that's not how the chief intended to come off...but he resigned over it.

but again, i wasn't there. i don't presume to speak for everyone who is hurt over this, i'm just repeating what i hear coming from the community when they speak on camera (not what i read in the misleading links or the biased article comments). it's not just this incident, it's the previous one....and decades of incidents. look at the big picture. right or wrong, it's what the community feels. if the governor is responding to the community, how does that change the facts? if the special prosecutor comes back with the same conclusions, at least a whole bunch of people will believe the work was done properly; that's of no value to you?

c6601a
03-26-2012, 21:25
If you feel the Sanford PD intentionally messed up the collection of evidence in order to give ZMan special treatment, well that would mean there is a conspiracy among that police force going all the way up to the chief and the DA, to commit major felonies in order to protect ZMan.

Why would they do that? Risk their careers, pensions and serious jail time to protect ZMan?In the very recent past, Stanford police did exactly that when the covered up a crime by the kid of one of their own. The current chief was hired 10 months ago with the explicit instructions to clean up the department. One can not overcome a bad reputation in a year or two, especially when many of the people that made up the culture of the department are still there. If they did it before, the accusation that they may have done it again can not be dismissed and needs to be investigated by an outside entity.

HKLovingIT
03-26-2012, 21:28
In the very recent past, Stanford police did exactly that when the covered up a crime by the kid of one of their own. The current chief was hired 10 months ago with the explicit instructions to clean up the department. One can not overcome a bad reputation in a year or two, especially when many of the people that made up the culture of the department are still there. If they did it before, the accusation that they may have done it again can not be dismissed and needs to be investigated by an outside entity.


Ok I didn't know that. I took that out of my original post because I thought it too much conjecture and getting a bit off point.

DocCasualty
03-26-2012, 22:01
Perhaps. The police chief announcing that he can't find anything else, he's wrapping it up, the shooter says it was self-defense so we believe him, he's going to pass it on to someone else see what else they might find, if you do find anything else, let us know, but we're done, we are not going to arrest zman....if that's cool with you, then yes this case was "moving thru the system just as it should have." Unfortunately a whole bunch of people were not happy with that path. These are the very same people who are quite happy with the path that most investigations take. But to them, this case is unique, deny it all you want. LOL
I believe you have totally mischaracterized what we do know about this case and again, there's probably a lot we don't know. To the best of my knowledge the furor arose when Zman was not arrested. The reasons why he has not yet been arrested have been beaten to death and most informed legal opinions seem to agree. Zman claimed self-defense and the initial investigation supported that claim, as reviewed with the city (or was it county?) attorney. Yes, the Sanford PD had completed their investigation but I don't recall that ever being the end of the investigation. At that point it was going on to the DA (or Prosecuting Atty, however they're titled there) for further review and then the decision whether to prosecute Zman on whatever charge they thought appropriate or not. This is essentially the way this is done in every jurisdiction in the US, as often as it comes up.

Denial? What am I denying? The case has become unique because of the agendas people have brought to this table.

that's how i heard it, if that's not how the chief intended to come off...but he resigned over it.Because of the political pressure he was removed. This was to placate the mob. Even he actually tendered a resignation, this was the window-dressing any CEO is given when the Board of Directors needs them to leave.

but again, i wasn't there. i don't presume to speak for everyone who is hurt over this, i'm just repeating what i hear coming from the community when they speak on camera (not what i read in the misleading links or the biased article comments).Nor was I there. I have maintained from the beginning that I'll let this play out in the legal system and not pre-judge the case as many in that community apparently have done. When I first heard the story the way the media had spun it, I figured Zman was obviously guilty. The more I've learned, the more I realize there is a very real possibility that he may well have acted in self-defense and this was justifiable homicide.
it's not just this incident, it's the previous one....and decades of incidents. look at the big picture. right or wrong, it's what the community feels. I'm neither blind enough nor ignorant enough to not understand the history of this country. I believe you just suggested that pandering to a segment of the community or society for the wrong reasons is justified. If I misunderstood you, please clarify.

if the governor is responding to the community, how does that change the facts? if the special prosecutor comes back with the same conclusions, at least a whole bunch of people will believe the work was done properly; that's of no value to you?Again, I believe what we are seeing is undermining the justice system we have in place in this country. Political pressure is bending the rules. What have we seen so far that suggests that the wheels of justice were not turning just as they were supposed to? Given the issues at hand, I see many who won't be satisfied with any conclusion other than Zman being found guilty, which he well may be.

Warp
03-26-2012, 22:33
Perhaps. The police chief announcing that he can't find anything else, he's wrapping it up, the shooter says it was self-defense so we believe him, he's going to pass it on to someone else see what else they might find, if you do find anything else, let us know, but we're done, we are not going to arrest zman....if that's cool with you, then yes this case was "moving thru the system just as it should have." Unfortunately a whole bunch of people were not happy with that path. These are the very same people who are quite happy with the path that most investigations take. But to them, this case is unique, deny it all you want. LOL

that's how i heard it, if that's not how the chief intended to come off...but he resigned over it.

but again, i wasn't there. i don't presume to speak for everyone who is hurt over this, i'm just repeating what i hear coming from the community when they speak on camera (not what i read in the misleading links or the biased article comments). it's not just this incident, it's the previous one....and decades of incidents. look at the big picture. right or wrong, it's what the community feels. if the governor is responding to the community, how does that change the facts? if the special prosecutor comes back with the same conclusions, at least a whole bunch of people will believe the work was done properly; that's of no value to you?

No they won't

Tiro Fijo
03-26-2012, 22:33
...even if the special prosecution comes to the same conclusion, many can feel like everything was done to ensure all sides were heard and a fair, unbiased conclusion was reached. if zman is innocent, he should earn it, not be given it.


You'd still never believe it.

Do you believe that the EYEWITNESS is some part of a vast conspiracy and this is all some sort of "Roswellian" cover up? :upeyes: The decedent attacked Zimmerman and he shot to defend himself. He has a broken nose, cuts, etc. Do you want Jesus to descend form Mt. Sinai with a video? If ever there was a clear cut case of self defense then this was it and the decedent's toxicology report hasn't even been made public.

Quit listening to the ignorant race baiters and their vitriolic BS. I don't see them inciting people to protest the shooting of a MS college student by three Black murderers.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-rt-mississippi-shooting-update-1l2e8eqhu3-20120326,0,2931890.story

B.Reid
03-26-2012, 22:47
It is starting to look a lot more like self defense to me.

whenmonkeysfly
03-26-2012, 23:25
Zimmerman needs his day in court. Leave it to Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton to have Zimmerman convicted of a hate crime without all the facts. There are two victims here, unfortunately one is dead. Racism on both sides of the street. Let's slow down and get all the facts before we rush to judgement.

4Rules
03-26-2012, 23:48
Was Trayvon Martin a Drug Dealer? (http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer)

<http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer>