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MinnesnowtaWild
03-27-2012, 01:06
Was Trayvon Martin a Drug Dealer? (http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer)

<http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer>

And it all slowly leaks out...

c6601a
03-27-2012, 01:11
Do you believe that the EYEWITNESS is some part of a vast conspiracy and this is all some sort of "Roswellian" cover up?Which witness? There are witnesses that say Zimmerman was attacking Martin and witnesses that say the opposite. One 911 caller even said that it was the black guy that shot the white guy and was still standing a minute after the shot was fired. If you pick and choose which witness you want to believe, you can come to the conclusion that Zimmerman was justified, that Zimmerman was guilty or that they buried Martin alive because he was never shot.

Someone needs to look at all the conflicting accounts, collect physical evidence, correlate the physical evidence with the statements and decide if there is enough to charge. Because of their history, Stanford police department lacks the credibility and trust to be that someone.

Since it will be asked: The reference to the "black guy is standing" is near the end of 911 call in the file call6.wav released by Stanford PD.

Bren
03-27-2012, 04:47
Someone needs to look at all the conflicting accounts, collect physical evidence, correlate the physical evidence with the statements and decide if there is enough to charge. Because of their history, Stanford police department lacks the credibility and trust to be that someone.


Somebody already has, but they aren't directly releasing the evidence yet, which is why the Trayvon supporters get to make up any wild speculation they want.

Bruce M
03-27-2012, 05:49
...
Is it not clear to you that the state of FL has removed the investigation from the city of Sanford and started a brand new investigation with a special prosecutor, why exactly do you think they did this?


I am not completely clear that that is what the State has done. The State has removed the decision as whether or not to prosecute from the State Attorney to a Special Prosecutor. My guess is that the Special Prosecutor is going to use mostly the evidence and statements that have already been collected; I have no doubt that they may well reinterview some witnesses if they have any questions regarding their answers but I don't think at this point it is fair to say they are going to start an entirely new investigation.

Misty02
03-27-2012, 06:07
My guess is this is so out of control, it's likely not much you can do or say about anything. Certainly you shouldn't feel the family is orchestrating and conducting all this. When and if riots starts, can't blame the family. It's only at that point you should expect them to start denouncing things. When looking at people's actions, I don't put them in my shoes because I know different people do different things and not always the same way I will.

We don't know everything the family likes or dislikes, condems or supports. Only the media controls what get outs. If it suits their purpose, you read about it. Since I don't really know for sure, I tend to dismiss it. Perhaps we'll hear the family discuss the trademark issue at their next speaking engagement.

I'm still waiting on what is important to this case, the facts and the evidence. And I'm getting that soon since the investigation has been shifted to an authority that has the true capability of deilvering it.

You wouldn’t have contacted every possible media outlet to request people stop the hate messages and to publicly state you are against those “dead or alive” posters and the $10,000 reward for Zimmerman’s capture while still calling for people to support you in seeking justice for your son’s death? And clearly state you will not allow such messages to be associated with the memory of your son?


.

kensteele
03-27-2012, 06:57
I am not completely clear that that is what the State has done. The State has removed the decision as whether or not to prosecute from the State Attorney to a Special Prosecutor. My guess is that the Special Prosecutor is going to use mostly the evidence and statements that have already been collected; I have no doubt that they may well reinterview some witnesses if they have any questions regarding their answers but I don't think at this point it is fair to say they are going to start an entirely new investigation.

that's the unfortunte part. all the evidence and data that was not collected or analysed or evaluated at the scene or close to the proximity or time of the scene is probably lost and never to be recovered. perhaps they have it all, perhaps everything is complete. i keep hearing it's not. i guess we'll find out when the special investigation is completed. iirc, an entirely new investigation were the words from the her, the special prosecutor. it's possible she used those word to placate.

kensteele
03-27-2012, 07:15
You wouldn’t have contacted every possible media outlet to request people stop the hate messages and to publicly state you are against those “dead or alive” posters and the $10,000 reward for Zimmerman’s capture while still calling for people to support you in seeking justice for your son’s death? And clearly state you will not allow such messages to be associated with the memory of your son?


.

at this point, i think she is doing whatever her lawyers advise her to do. the focus should be on the investigation and the facts. if it were me and a reporter asked me if i like the wanted posters or if i posted a reward, i would say no.

c6601a
03-27-2012, 07:19
You wouldn’t have contacted every possible media outlet to request people stop the hate messages and to publicly state you are against those “dead or alive” posters and the $10,000 reward for Zimmerman’s capture while still calling for people to support you in seeking justice for your son’s death? And clearly state you will not allow such messages to be associated with the memory of your son?The family already has and it has been reported on multiple TV "news" programs. Not that you will ever notice it because it interferes with what you want to believe.

c6601a
03-27-2012, 07:22
Somebody already has, but they aren't directly releasing the evidence yet, which is why the Trayvon supporters get to make up any wild speculation they want.As I posted in the post you quoted, the Stanford PD, because of their recent history, lacks the credibility and public trust to be that "somebody". They can collect all the evidence they want and come to whatever conclusion they want, people are not going to believe them and for a good reason. That is why an outsider is needed.

jdavionic
03-27-2012, 07:48
So has the DOJ started an investigation into in the Black Panthers for putting a bounty on a citizen that has not been charged with a crime?

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B.Reid
03-27-2012, 07:55
So has the DOJ started an investigation into in the Black Panthers for putting a bounty on a citizen that has not been charged with a crime?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Sounds like they could be arrested for a murder contract.

whenmonkeysfly
03-27-2012, 08:32
You'd still never believe it.

Do you believe that the EYEWITNESS is some part of a vast conspiracy and this is all some sort of "Roswellian" cover up? :upeyes: The decedent attacked Zimmerman and he shot to defend himself. He has a broken nose, cuts, etc. Do you want Jesus to descend form Mt. Sinai with a video? If ever there was a clear cut case of self defense then this was it and the decedent's toxicology report hasn't even been made public.

Quit listening to the ignorant race baiters and their vitriolic BS. I don't see them inciting people to protest the shooting of a MS college student by three Black murderers.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-rt-mississippi-shooting-update-1l2e8eqhu3-20120326,0,2931890.story

Was Trayvon Martin a Drug Dealer? (http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer)

<http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer>

Interesting read.

Misty02
03-27-2012, 10:28
I think they did the trademark to prevent others from profiting from his name, or using his name and likeness without their permission. I agree with them doing that.

If something like that happened to a family member of mine and it turned into a media superstorm I would suggest the same to protect his name from use by people looking to make a buck off of t-shirts and other junk.

Thank you for presenting that reasoning, I hadn’t thought of it. You are correct, it would make sense to do that.

.

kensteele
03-27-2012, 10:40
Interesting commentary and opinions both in the video and in the written piece: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

kensteele
03-27-2012, 10:47
It appears the family comdemns the actions of the panthers including the bounty: http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-daryl-parks-trayvon-martin-lawyer.cnn

kensteele
03-27-2012, 11:20
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57405177-504083/new-orleans-police-officer-jason-giroir-suspended-for-online-comments-about-trayvon-martin-shooting/

not sure what to think about this just because someone posted a comment but the officials in la handlee it as they see fit i guess. my point is the person who threatened the sanford ex-chief was arrested and if the new black panthers commit a crime, they will be held accountable as well.

for us in this forum, we are just having a healthy discussion for the most part.

Misty02
03-27-2012, 12:25
at this point, i think she is doing whatever her lawyers advise her to do. the focus should be on the investigation and the facts. if it were me and a reporter asked me if i like the wanted posters or if i posted a reward, i would say no.

You mean lie so things continue growing out of proportion?

The family already has and it has been reported on multiple TV "news" programs. Not that you will ever notice it because it interferes with what you want to believe.

I’ve yet to see it but now that you mention it exists I’ll go look for it. Just out of curiosity, what is it you think I want to believe?

If you have a link to any of clips of those TV or news programs I would appreciate it. If not, that is ok, I’ll do some research.


It appears the family comdemns the actions of the panthers including the bounty: http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-daryl-parks-trayvon-martin-lawyer.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/ac-daryl-parks-trayvon-martin-lawyer.cnn)

This is their attorney, not the family (mother or father). He said “we don’t condone”. I’ll continue searching. The family has been very public; in the radio they mentioned they were flying to see the President? I’m sure I’ll find some video of them denouncing the actions of the Black Panthers. If that is the case, they have my most sincere apologies for developing that personal opinion. When I find it, I’ll share it with all of you as well.

.

atl-g33
03-27-2012, 12:52
http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panther-leader-1398575.html

New Black Panther arrested up here in GA.

Bruce M
03-27-2012, 13:14
So has the DOJ started an investigation into in the Black Panthers for putting a bounty on a citizen that has not been charged with a crime?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


If it turns out that Sanford PD actually performed a competent, thorough, complete, and objective investigation does that restore the department's credibility?

whoflungdo
03-27-2012, 13:18
If it turns out that Sanford PD actually performed a competent, thorough, complete, and objective investigation does that restore the department's credibility?

The people out for blood will never believe Zimmerman is not guilty of murder. There is nothing that can be done by the police, DA, DOJ, FBI, CIA, NSA, President, etc to make believers out of them.

ATW525
03-27-2012, 13:19
http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panther-leader-1398575.html

New Black Panther arrested up here in GA.

Wait... he has felony convictions (plural) from last month(!)? Why was he walking around free?

WSMBUCK
03-27-2012, 13:29
Like the Media a picture says alot about someone, Here is a updated picture( CLICK ON PICTURE TO MAKE BIGGER).224087

4Rules
03-27-2012, 13:40
Suspended THREE times for drugs, truancy and graffiti and 'caught carrying a burglary tool': New picture emerges of Trayvon Martin (and did he attack a bus driver too?) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html)

Bren
03-27-2012, 13:46
As I posted in the post you quoted, the Stanford PD, because of their recent history, lacks the credibility and public trust to be that "somebody". They can collect all the evidence they want and come to whatever conclusion they want, people are not going to believe them and for a good reason. That is why an outsider is needed.

So you posted, but you didn't say why. Your conclusion doesn't mean much unless you have a reason for it that others can agree with. It would be pretty unusual for a whole department to lack credibility, but it is very, very common for particular people to claim whole departments (or all police) lack credibility.

rahrah12
03-27-2012, 14:52
Like the Media a picture says alot about someone, Here is a updated picture( CLICK ON PICTURE TO MAKE BIGGER).224087

The guy in your picture on the right is not the right Trayvon...

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531343_2853854304772_1211972452_32237093_557987185_n.jpg

rahrah12
03-27-2012, 14:59
http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests...

This has gone way beyond a case and is strictly political at this point...can't wait for the coming elections...

WSMBUCK
03-27-2012, 15:03
The guy in your picture on the right is not the right Trayvon...

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531343_2853854304772_1211972452_32237093_557987185_n.jpg

It's one of his Tweeter pictures ,that his faimly tried to hide.

rahrah12
03-27-2012, 15:09
It's one of his Tweeter pictures ,that his faimly tried to hide.

The guy on the left in the hat doesn't even look like him(the guy on the right) to me...

The one with those photos in his profile is not the same guy.

jdavionic
03-27-2012, 16:33
If it turns out that Sanford PD actually performed a competent, thorough, complete, and objective investigation does that restore the department's credibility?

I've never questioned their credibility. I understand why the police chief stepped down. However I wish he did not...it seems like it could be interpreted as rewarding those that got outraged without knowing more of the facts.

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jdavionic
03-27-2012, 16:35
I was questioning the credibility of Eric Holder though.

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whenmonkeysfly
03-27-2012, 16:41
The people out for blood will never believe Zimmerman is not guilty of murder. There is nothing that can be done by the police, DA, DOJ, FBI, CIA, NSA, President, etc to make believers out of them.

Agree.

Misty02
03-27-2012, 16:46
The family already has and it has been reported on multiple TV "news" programs. Not that you will ever notice it because it interferes with what you want to believe.

I’ve yet to see it but now that you mention it exists I’ll go look for it. Just out of curiosity, what is it you think I want to believe?

If you have a link to any of clips of those TV or news programs I would appreciate it. If not, that is ok, I’ll do some research.

.


c6601a, you, Martin’s family, and anyone that read my comment have my apologies for developing an opinion based on what I had seen to date without actively seeking information to the contrary. I have not yet found the video/audio clip of the family actually saying it, but this one is enough for me.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justice/florida-teen-shooting-bounty/


.

guyandarifle
03-27-2012, 16:50
SIAP

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

cphilip
03-27-2012, 17:01
I've never questioned their credibility. I understand why the police chief stepped down. However I wish he did not...it seems like it could be interpreted as rewarding those that got outraged without knowing more of the facts.

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I am inclined to believe now that they did aggressively pursue trying to charge Zimmerman. Some comments from them today indicate that the investigator or prosecutor (I can't exactly tell who) wanted to make a case. It was said that they took Zimmerman in that night and questioned him for 5 hours. Then the next day they took him back to the scene and made him walk through it all again. And then he says he tried for two weeks to find enough to arrest and charge him but... in the end... he couldn't. What little evidence there was all supported Zimmerman's version of the events. There was not enough to charge him on, let alone arrest him on.

And so we have it as it likely is to be. Unless something comes out that is unknown. There is not likely anything not uncovered already.

cphilip
03-27-2012, 17:05
Of course... if I find out later that his daddy the retired judge helped keep him from being a convicted Felon and so then made him eligible to buy a gun AND get a CWP I am going to be all over that like stank on...well... ya know? Florida has been previously criticized for being too lenient on awarding CWP's and allowing people to get pardons or sealing records and I would have to pile onto that if this is the case.

DocCasualty
03-27-2012, 17:10
I am inclined to believe now that they did aggressively pursue trying to charge Zimmerman. Some comments from them today indicate that the investigator or prosecutor (I can't exactly tell who) wanted to make a case. It was said that they took Zimmerman in that night and questioned him for 5 hours. Then the next day they took him back to the scene and made him walk through it all again. And then he says he tried for two weeks to find enough to arrest and charge him but... in the end... he couldn't. What little evidence there was all supported Zimmerman's version of the events. There was not enough to charge him on, let alone arrest him on.

And so we have it as it likely is to be. Unless something comes out that is unknown. There is not likely anything not uncovered already.
Here's a link to the story of the investigator Serino wanting to file manslaughter charges. http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-manslaughter-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html

cphilip
03-27-2012, 17:20
Thanks for the link Doc... that is the one... or at least it is like the one I saw.

By the way, the unflattering pictures of Trayvon circulating now are likely not the same Trayvon we are talking about. There is one of him older out there they could be using but the other one showing him shooting birdies and such is not him.

EmbryRiddle
03-27-2012, 17:52
The guy in your picture on the right is not the right Trayvon...

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531343_2853854304772_1211972452_32237093_557987185_n.jpg


c'mon, you know to some people they all look alike....:whistling:

PAGunner
03-27-2012, 18:09
I am inclined to believe now that they did aggressively pursue trying to charge Zimmerman. Some comments from them today indicate that the investigator or prosecutor (I can't exactly tell who) wanted to make a case. It was said that they took Zimmerman in that night and questioned him for 5 hours. Then the next day they took him back to the scene and made him walk through it all again. And then he says he tried for two weeks to find enough to arrest and charge him but... in the end... he couldn't. What little evidence there was all supported Zimmerman's version of the events. There was not enough to charge him on, let alone arrest him on.

And so we have it as it likely is to be. Unless something comes out that is unknown. There is not likely anything not uncovered already.

There you go, this was my suspicion from the start. What it appears we have is a guy who saw a man in a hoody standing in a gated community, just standing around in the rain, who had never been seen before in that neighborhood, a gated community which like most gated communities had no trespassing signs and community watch signs posted all over.

Zimmerman called police, Martin ran, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle presumably to keep tabs on this guy, after a suggestion by the 911 operator to not pursue martin, Zimmerman headed back to his vehicle, was confronted by Martin (not the other way around) near his vehicle, was then punched by Martin breaking his nose, then martin got on top and bashed his skull repeatedly into the concrete as zimmerman screamed for help, then zimmerman in fear of his life shot him. Open and shut good shoot to me.

The question of if he said coon or punk on the 911 tapes is irrelevant at this point. Sounded like a "PA" to me for punk, but I could be wrong, none of us really know, it was far from clear. Zimmerman was not the aggressor, he legally did nothing wrong, Martin committed a felony assault.

Martin is thought to be 6'3", Zimmerman is 5'9", sounded like Martin was a hot headed thug who thought he was going to beat Martin senseless, he wasn't expecting Zimmerman to be strapped, tough luck for that criminal punk.

Martin is thought to have swung on his bus driver 3 days before the incident according to a post by his cousin on facebook. Martin is also thought to have sold marijuana based on his "no limit n!igga" account on twitter. For a current picture of the tattoed Martin flashing his gold teeth, click on this link:

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

The sad part of all this is, for all the alleged pro-2a people who threw this guy under the bus, assuming the cops didn't do their job. With friends like you guys, who needs enemies? This is a clear case of left wing media propaganda and with racists such as Obama, Al Sharpton and the black panthers (who put a price tag on Martin's head) chiming in we might be looking at riots that make the LA Riots look like child's play. Take home point, never trust the mainstream media's reporting, cause chances are it's way off from what the truth really is, done with my rant.

opto_isolator
03-27-2012, 18:23
There you go, this was my suspicion from the start. What it appears we have is a guy who saw a man in a hoody standing in a gated community, just standing around in the rain, who had never been seen before in that neighborhood, a gated community which like most gated communities had no trespassing signs and community watch signs posted all over.

Zimmerman called police, Martin ran, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle presumably to keep tabs on this guy, after a suggestion by the 911 operator to not pursue martin, Zimmerman headed back to his vehicle, was confronted by Martin (not the other way around) near his vehicle, was then punched by Martin breaking his nose, then martin got on top and bashed his skull repeatedly into the concrete as zimmerman screamed for help, then zimmerman in fear of his life shot him. Open and shut good shoot to me.

The question of if he said coon or punk on the 911 tapes is irrelevant at this point. Sounded like a "PA" to me for punk, but I could be wrong, none of us really know, it was far from clear. Zimmerman was not the aggressor, he legally did nothing wrong, Martin committed a felony assault.

Martin is thought to be 6'3", Zimmerman is 5'9", sounded like Martin was a hot headed thug who thought he was going to beat Martin senseless, he wasn't expecting Zimmerman to be strapped, tough luck for that criminal punk.

Martin is thought to have swung on his bus driver 3 days before the incident according to a post by his cousin on facebook. Martin is also thought to have sold marijuana based on his "no limit n!igga" account on twitter. For a current picture of the tattoed Martin flashing his gold teeth, click on this link:

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

The sad part of all this is, for all the alleged pro-2a people who threw this guy under the bus, assuming the cops didn't do their job. With friends like you guys, who needs enemies? This is a clear case of left wing media propaganda and with racists such as Obama, Al Sharpton and the black panthers (who put a price tag on Martin's head) chiming in we might be looking at riots that make the LA Riots look like child's play. Take home point, never trust the mainstream media's reporting, cause chances are it's way off from what the truth really is, done with my rant.

Valid point. What happens if Zimmerman is found not guilty? Will people riot? Seriously - if the facts of the case present themselves, what will people do? I've seen so many people in the last few days frothed up in fervor to hang this guy, without even knowing the facts or details of this case, its rather disturbing how many people (both white and black, left and right) that are out for blood here. It really boggles my mind why this is???

High Altitude
03-27-2012, 18:24
Here are some pics I saw.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/528402_212557252177403_100002693893463_287689_497734875_n.jpg

cphilip
03-27-2012, 18:29
While the current picture of Zimmerman would be a fairer portrayal the picture of Trayvon (I am told) is not even him so I wouldn't use it. But there is another picture of Trayvon I saw that is current that would be a fairer one to use too. It is evident that there is an effort to use an unfavorable picture of Zimmerman and a way more favorable one of Trayvon but I don't think there is a need to stoop to using the wrong guy completely.

ATW525
03-27-2012, 18:29
Martin is thought to have swung on his bus driver 3 days before the incident according to a post by his cousin on facebook. Martin is also thought to have sold marijuana based on his "no limit n!igga" account on twitter. For a current picture of the tattoed Martin flashing his gold teeth, click on this link:

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

Unlike some of the other pictures in this thread, the one with the gold teeth appears to be the right Trayvon Martin.

DocCasualty
03-27-2012, 18:33
Valid point. What happens if Zimmerman is found not guilty? Will people riot? Seriously - if the facts of the case present themselves, what will people do? I've seen so many people in the last few days frothed up in fervor to hang this guy, without even knowing the facts or details of this case, its rather disturbing how many people (both white and black, left and right) that are out for blood here. It really boggles my mind why this is???
I think it's because the initial press stories painted a picture of a vigilante white guy (kind of missed the mark on a couple of points there) wantonly killing an unarmed, innocent African-American youth for no reason other than having a CWP and because he could. We still don't know what happened but any simple read of what is known would give one pause to wonder exactly what did happen. Unfortunately, the furies were already released.

dpadams6
03-27-2012, 18:42
I am inclined to believe now that they did aggressively pursue trying to charge Zimmerman. Some comments from them today indicate that the investigator or prosecutor (I can't exactly tell who) wanted to make a case. It was said that they took Zimmerman in that night and questioned him for 5 hours. Then the next day they took him back to the scene and made him walk through it all again. And then he says he tried for two weeks to find enough to arrest and charge him but... in the end... he couldn't. What little evidence there was all supported Zimmerman's version of the events. There was not enough to charge him on, let alone arrest him on.

And so we have it as it likely is to be. Unless something comes out that is unknown. There is not likely anything not uncovered already.

Under Florida law, its a good shooting.

vkscott
03-27-2012, 20:31
Got this from a Facebook friend. Reckon we will see any of this enforced? I seriously doubt it. :steamed:

http://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2012/03/26/how-many-crimes-did-the-new-black-panthers-commit-in-florida/

vkscott
03-27-2012, 20:51
Interesting commentary and opinions both in the video and in the written piece: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

First time I've read in print, the press referring to Zimmerman as "Hispanic".

vkscott
03-27-2012, 20:54
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57405177-504083/new-orleans-police-officer-jason-giroir-suspended-for-online-comments-about-trayvon-martin-shooting/

not sure what to think about this just because someone posted a comment but the officials in la handlee it as they see fit i guess. my point is the person who threatened the sanford ex-chief was arrested and if the new black panthers commit a crime, they will be held accountable as well.

for us in this forum, we are just having a healthy discussion for the most part.

If, you mean since they have committed a crime.

http://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2012/03/26/how-many-crimes-did-the-new-black-panthers-commit-in-florida/

vkscott
03-27-2012, 21:04
http://www.ajc.com/news/new-black-panther-leader-1398575.html

New Black Panther arrested up here in GA.

What a coincidence, $10,000 bond and a $10,000 bounty. Perhaps they were setting the bounty to post bond for one of their own. I'm just saying :rofl:

PAGunner
03-27-2012, 22:01
Valid point. What happens if Zimmerman is found not guilty? Will people riot? Seriously - if the facts of the case present themselves, what will people do? I've seen so many people in the last few days frothed up in fervor to hang this guy, without even knowing the facts or details of this case, its rather disturbing how many people (both white and black, left and right) that are out for blood here. It really boggles my mind why this is???

I honestly can't imagine this thing even going to trial, I see it getting no billed. It appears very clear it was self defense. Police did their job and did investigate, it's open and shut. The whole controversy was stirred up by leftists.

Warp
03-27-2012, 22:10
I honestly can't imagine this thing even going to trial, I see it getting no billed. It appears very clear it was self defense. Police did their job and did investigate, it's open and shut. The whole controversy was stirred up by leftists.

My crystal ball says no billed and then a bunch of violence as a result of the perceived injustice.

Batton down the hatches. A lot of people with nothing better to do and not much to lose could find a great excuse to cause trouble.

High Altitude
03-27-2012, 22:43
My crystal ball says no billed and then a bunch of violence as a result of the perceived injustice.

Batton down the hatches. A lot of people with nothing better to do and not much to lose could find a great excuse to cause trouble.

Could very well happen.

Might not be any different than the LA riots which I lived in Socal and worked in Compton at the time.

If I lived in the area I would have my AR, pistol and complete kit ready to go.

Things could get out of hand fast.

Fifty-three people died during the riots including 10 shot dead by the LAPD and the National Guard[22] with as many as 2,000 people injured. Estimates of the material losses vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. Widespread looting also occurred. Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted,[23] although stores owned by Caucasians and African Americans were targeted by rioters as well.

B.Reid
03-27-2012, 23:59
They are starting to talk about a new gun bill, they just needed an excuse to bring it out.

c6601a
03-28-2012, 01:23
So you posted, but you didn't say why. Your conclusion doesn't mean much unless you have a reason for it that others can agree with. It would be pretty unusual for a whole department to lack credibility, but it is very, very common for particular people to claim whole departments (or all police) lack credibility.Below are the links for news stories about the incident in December 2010 (16 months ago) where the cops decided to not arrest a white lieutenant's son who sucker punched a black man, causing a broken nose. The whole incident was caught on video which was made available to the police on the scene. It was only after media coverage and community outrage that the perpetrator was arrested and charged with a felony and a misdemeanor. He eventually paid restitution to the victim, legal bribes to the local NAACP chapters and pled guilty to a misdemeanor, receiving a year of probation.

An internal investigation subsequently cleared all officers of wrongdoing, except one captain whose fault was that he criticized the officers on the scene. The kid's father was cleared of any wrongdoing because even though he involved himself in an official matter that impacted his son, there was no evidence to suggest any intent on his part to actually cause an impact.

With a recent history like that, if you can not understand why people in the community have legitimate reasons for not trusting the department, I do not know what more I can do for you.

News article from January 2011: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-25/news/os-homeless-man-attacked-20110125_1_sanford-bar-medical-bills-homeless-man
Recent news article: http://newsone.com/nation/nomul6/travyon-martin-justin-collison-sanford-cops-son-slugs-homeless-man/
Internal investigation report: http://www.scribd.com/charisse_horn_1/d/86683476-Administrative-Investigation-Justin-Collison-Case

c6601a
03-28-2012, 01:25
c6601a, you, Martin’s family, and anyone that read my comment have my apologies for developing an opinion based on what I had seen to date without actively seeking information to the contrary.No apologies needed to me. I am glad you were able to see things more broadly. It takes a big man to admit one's mistakes and I admire that quality.

Bren
03-28-2012, 04:31
Below are the links for news stories about the incident in December 2010 (16 months ago) where the cops decided to not arrest a white lieutenant's son who sucker punched a black man, causing a broken nose. The whole incident was caught on video which was made available to the police on the scene. It was only after media coverage and community outrage that the perpetrator was arrested and charged with a felony and a misdemeanor. He eventually paid restitution to the victim, legal bribes to the local NAACP chapters and pled guilty to a misdemeanor, receiving a year of probation.

An internal investigation subsequently cleared all officers of wrongdoing, except one captain whose fault was that he criticized the officers on the scene. The kid's father was cleared of any wrongdoing because even though he involved himself in an official matter that impacted his son, there was no evidence to suggest any intent on his part to actually cause an impact.

With a recent history like that, if you can not understand why people in the community have legitimate reasons for not trusting the department, I do not know what more I can do for you.

News article from January 2011: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-25/news/os-homeless-man-attacked-20110125_1_sanford-bar-medical-bills-homeless-man
Recent news article: http://newsone.com/nation/nomul6/travyon-martin-justin-collison-sanford-cops-son-slugs-homeless-man/
Internal investigation report: http://www.scribd.com/charisse_horn_1/d/86683476-Administrative-Investigation-Justin-Collison-Case

So an incident happened that upset liberal race-baiters, but no wrongdoing was found. Not seeing your point, really.

Just because you want them to be wrong doesn't mean they have lost all credibility over a single incident where they were not wrong.

The police had what appeared to be a misdemeanor assault - a guy punched another guy one time. The warrant was later issued for an aggravated assault, but a broken nose wouldn't make that in many states - maybe Florida or maybe not. The way I learned it, the law doesn't usually allow the police to make an arrest for a misdemeanor assault unless they are present when it happens (with a legal exception for domestic violence). Otherwise, the parties get warrants, which is what would be done in 100% of punch in the nose assault cases here between non-family members. Looks like a good call by the police, who were later criticized when it came out on video and a prosecutor realized he could get more votes by take the anti-whitey side.

Misty02
03-28-2012, 05:32
No apologies needed to me. I am glad you were able to see things more broadly. It takes a big man to admit one's mistakes and I admire that quality.

I should state that I spent hours looking for an article, video or audio clip of the family denouncing the NBP, the only thing I found was that news interview where the reporter mentioned the family had done so. I’m accepting that as evidence that the comment exists somewhere and it has yet to be posted online.

My personal opinion, based on the information I have to date, is that it is quite possible that both Zimmerman and Martin acted in self-defense, from their point of view. The only thing that the new information about Martin has changed is the possibility that Zimmerman may not have been wrong when he stated the kid looked high or something. I still hold the opinion that he shouldn’t have left his vehicle in the first place (not due to legalities but to common sense).

Other than that, both of us (you and me) are guilty of reaching incorrect assumptions.
:wavey:
.

Fred Hansen
03-28-2012, 06:11
So the liberal Democrats™ in Floriduh™ have their panties wadded up their crack because the Sandford Police let a white™ alchy punch a black™ junkie, and the white™ alchy subsequently gets a misdemeanor plea, plus a shake down for $3000.00 worth of donations to liberal Democrat™ causes, (i.e. NAACP™, Seminole™ Action Coalition Serving Our Needy™ and a Sanford drug rehabilitation™ center) and now liberal Democrats™ in Floriduh™ are whining because the cops didn't arrest a wise latino™ Democrat™ who shot a black™ youth who was just turning his life around™.

A wise latino™ Democrat™ whose life is now being threatened by the New Black Panther Party™ that is offering a cash reward for the wise latino™ Democrat's™ kidnapping and/or murder.

Do you guys give out color wheels, or a flow chart, or something that would at least give the cops an inkling of the mondo bizarro hierarchy of victimhood that you liberals attribute to people, based on their skin color™, sexual orientation™, income, etc...???

Seriously, if you guys could just map out the cognitive dissonance that passes for logic in those fuzzy little brains of yours, the rest of us would surely appreciate it. As it stands, we just aren't able to follow along. :freak: :upeyes:

kensteele
03-28-2012, 06:36
I'm out of this thread since it's being occupied with the type of people that I am uncomfortable with. See you folks later, good luck with your case. ;)

whoflungdo
03-28-2012, 07:51
My crystal ball says no billed and then a bunch of violence as a result of the perceived injustice.

Batton down the hatches. A lot of people with nothing better to do and not much to lose could find a great excuse to cause trouble.

On the local level only. The FEDs will get involved and make this a Civil Rights issue.

PAGunner
03-28-2012, 07:51
I should state that I spent hours looking for an article, video or audio clip of the family denouncing the NBP, the only thing I found was that news interview where the reporter mentioned the family had done so. I’m accepting that as evidence that the comment exists somewhere and it has yet to be posted online.

My personal opinion, based on the information I have to date, is that it is quite possible that both Zimmerman and Martin acted in self-defense, from their point of view. The only thing that the new information about Martin has changed is the possibility that Zimmerman may not have been wrong when he stated the kid looked high or something. I still hold the opinion that he shouldn’t have left his vehicle in the first place (not due to legalities but to common sense).

Other than that, both of us (you and me) are guilty of reaching incorrect assumptions.
:wavey:
.

The police investigated this case thoroughly. The evidence (scene of the incident) along with witness accounts place the confrontation very close to Zimmerman's vehicle. This is consistent with Zimmerman's story that he was walking back to his car when he was confronted and attacked by Martin. Martin broke his nose and brutally bounced his skull off the concrete while Martin yelled for help. This is why Zimmerman shot him, an obvious open and close case of self defense.

I'm not sure why everyone, including people on this forum and the public are being so damn dense about this. Police do not just let people off the hook who just shot somebody without investigating. Believe what you want, but the facts are the facts, and put into context with Martin's thug character, it is irrational to me why so many still hate Zimmerman.

PAGunner
03-28-2012, 07:54
My crystal ball says no billed and then a bunch of violence as a result of the perceived injustice.

Batton down the hatches. A lot of people with nothing better to do and not much to lose could find a great excuse to cause trouble.

Unfortunately I fear you might be right about the violence, and I'm located at what will likely be the epicenter of that violence.

B.Reid
03-28-2012, 08:19
Besides they did arrest him, you have seen the mug shot.

dpadams6
03-28-2012, 08:22
The police investigated this case thoroughly. The evidence (scene of the incident) along with witness accounts place the confrontation very close to Zimmerman's vehicle. This is consistent with Zimmerman's story that he was walking back to his car when he was confronted and attacked by Martin. Martin broke his nose and brutally bounced his skull off the concrete while Martin yelled for help. This is why Zimmerman shot him, an obvious open and close case of self defense.

I'm not sure why everyone, including people on this forum and the public are being so damn dense about this. Police do not just let people off the hook who just shot somebody without investigating. Believe what you want, but the facts are the facts, and put into context with Martin's thug character, it is irrational to me why so many still hate Zimmerman.

Well said. Your right on. Justified shooting.

HKLovingIT
03-28-2012, 08:27
My crystal ball says no billed and then a bunch of violence as a result of the perceived injustice.

Batton down the hatches. A lot of people with nothing better to do and not much to lose could find a great excuse to cause trouble.

You may be right. I hope things stay calm but it doesn't look so hot right now.

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Trayvon-protesters-ransack-store/-/1717324/9719674/-/xctonpz/-/index.html

I am glad to see some of their fellow students condemning the behavior and the school district taking some disciplinary action. Kids. :dunno: However, why is the school letting 400 students out at 10:40 AM in the morning to march in protest? Should they not be in the classroom?

whoflungdo
03-28-2012, 08:29
Besides they did arrest him, you have seen the mug shot.


No that was an old photo from an old arrest

cgjane
03-28-2012, 08:29
it is irrational to me why so many still hate Zimmerman.

Because ZMan wanted to play Policeman and placed himself in an unnecessary bad situation.

Now all the antis are out in force (with a Liberal White House) and my Florida Gun Rights are going to be targeted.

Let the Police Officers do their job.

Bren
03-28-2012, 08:43
I'm out of this thread since it's being occupied with the type of people that I am uncomfortable with. See you folks later, good luck with your case. ;)

You mean, people who own guns, eat meat, drive non-hybrid cars, etc.?

Misty02
03-28-2012, 08:52
The police investigated this case thoroughly. The evidence (scene of the incident) along with witness accounts place the confrontation very close to Zimmerman's vehicle. This is consistent with Zimmerman's story that he was walking back to his car when he was confronted and attacked by Martin. Martin broke his nose and brutally bounced his skull off the concrete while Martin yelled for help. This is why Zimmerman shot him, an obvious open and close case of self defense.

I'm not sure why everyone, including people on this forum and the public are being so damn dense about this. Police do not just let people off the hook who just shot somebody without investigating. Believe what you want, but the facts are the facts, and put into context with Martin's thug character, it is irrational to me why so many still hate Zimmerman.

My comment didn’t question any of the legalities or the police investigation. I don’t have enough impartial information to arrive at a personal conclusion. I also don’t need additional information to know I personally wouldn’t have left the vehicle to investigate further.

A lot of what you’ve stated as fact is information only known to me as being released by the media, as a third party, relaying information. You may know those as fact, but I haven't heard/red it from the investigators yet. Even when they quote the police I have to wonder if they’re printing exactly what was said, the way they said it and in context. I do believe; however, that he was not arrested for the reasons stated in the City’s webpage.

I don’t know either of the characters involved; I neither hate nor like either. I think that in my entire life I’ve only hated one individual, that is a mighty powerful emotion reserved only for someone that at one time was very close to you and caused great harm.

My interest in this case is a tad clinical, I’m not emotionally involved, I am just interested in learning from it.

.

Gary1911A1
03-28-2012, 08:53
On the local level only. The FEDs will get involved and make this a Civil Rights issue.

This does make me think of the Rodney King situation.

EmbryRiddle
03-28-2012, 09:11
You mean, people who own guns, eat meat, drive non-hybrid cars, etc.?

nah, that describes me and everyone I know. he was probably referencing the drivel posted below....

So the liberal Democrats™ in Floriduh™ have their panties wadded up their crack because the Sandford Police let a white™ alchy punch a black™ junkie, and the white™ alchy subsequently gets a misdemeanor plea, plus a shake down for $3000.00 worth of donations to liberal Democrat™ causes, (i.e. NAACP™, Seminole™ Action Coalition Serving Our Needy™ and a Sanford drug rehabilitation™ center) and now liberal Democrats™ in Floriduh™ are whining because the cops didn't arrest a wise latino™ Democrat™ who shot a black™ youth who was just turning his life around™.

A wise latino™ Democrat™ whose life is now being threatened by the New Black Panther Party™ that is offering a cash reward for the wise latino™ Democrat's™ kidnapping and/or murder.

Do you guys give out color wheels, or a flow chart, or something that would at least give the cops an inkling of the mondo bizarro hierarchy of victimhood that you liberals attribute to people, based on their skin color™, sexual orientation™, income, etc...???

Seriously, if you guys could just map out the cognitive dissonance that passes for logic in those fuzzy little brains of yours, the rest of us would surely appreciate it. As it stands, we just aren't able to follow along. :freak: :upeyes:

HexHead
03-28-2012, 09:12
You mean, people who own guns, eat meat, drive non-hybrid cars, etc.?

You'd love the NRA Life Member license plate frame on my wife's Prius.

Misty02
03-28-2012, 09:18
nah, that describes me and everyone I know. he was probably referencing the drivel posted below....

He was referring to an irrelevant and offensive post that is no longer in the thread. To the poster that wrote it (you know who you are); yes, it was me who reported you. The first time I’ve reported anything in this forum and yes, it was that bad.
.

EmbryRiddle
03-28-2012, 09:35
He was referring to an irrelevant and offensive post that is no longer in the thread. To the poster that wrote it (you know who you are); yes, it was me who reported you. The first time I’ve reported anything in this forum and yes, it was that bad.
.

Thank you for clarifying, I was getting used to seeing stuff like that in PI

Bren
03-28-2012, 09:45
Here's an interesting story from CNN: What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1)

there are a few mistakes (like saying the 911 tape says Trayvon started to "run away") and they hint at how much they wish they could claim the breathing noise on the 911 call is a "racial slur."

However, it does lay out the evidence in an orderly way and show that it is undisputed by any evidence that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense and likely justified in using deadly force.

RussP
03-28-2012, 10:17
Here's an interesting story from CNN: What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1)

there are a few mistakes (like saying the 911 tape says Trayvon started to "run away") and they hint at how much they wish they could claim the breathing noise on the 911 call is a "racial slur."

However, it does lay out the evidence in an orderly way and show that it is undisputed by any evidence that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense and likely justified in using deadly force.Absent is the witness "John", an actual eyewitness.

xXxplosive
03-28-2012, 10:31
yep..................self defense.
They brought out some bimbo last night on the news who showed up after the thing was over and tried to say Z was standing over T and that he was the agressor....meanwhile Twas dead.
They're grasping at straws to justify their bad intentions on the horizon......it's gonna come to a head...IMO....then we'll see where LE stands.

vkscott
03-28-2012, 10:40
Besides they did arrest him, you have seen the mug shot.

Mug shot from 2005 :supergrin:

ballr4lyf
03-28-2012, 10:55
Absent is the witness "John", an actual eyewitness.

I love the witnesses they quoted, though:

"We heard a whining. Not like a crying, boohoo, but like a whining, someone in distress, and then the gunshot," she said.

Fact.

"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back,"

Fact

"And it didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way.

Opinion

"And I feel like it was Trayvon Martin that was crying out, because the minute that the gunshot went off, the whining stopped."

Opinion

"Selma asked him three times, 'what's going on over there?' " Cutcher said. "He [Zimmerman] looks back and doesn't say anything. She asks him again, 'everything OK? What's going on?' Same thing: looked at us, looked back. Finally, the third time, he said, 'just call the police.'

I don't know how long it took for the witnesses to get there, but I do know I've fired a shot without hearing protection before... It takes a minute for the ringing to stop and your hearing to be fully restored. Add to that, the shock associated with having just fired a shot in self-defense, I can understand why it took a minute to get a response out of him. Also, how many "bad guys" do you know who say 'just call the police'?

My take on the story: why even quote the opinion portion of the eye-witness testimony if they are supposed to be reporting facts? I mean, they are supposed to be "unbiased, credible journalists", right?

Roger1079
03-28-2012, 11:04
My comment didn’t question any of the legalities or the police investigation. I don’t have enough impartial information to arrive at a personal conclusion. I also don’t need additional information to know I personally wouldn’t have left the vehicle to investigate further.

A lot of what you’ve stated as fact is information only known to me as being released by the media, as a third party, relaying information. You may know those as fact, but I haven't heard/red it from the investigators yet. Even when they quote the police I have to wonder if they’re printing exactly what was said, the way they said it and in context. I do believe; however, that he was not arrested for the reasons stated in the City’s webpage.

I don’t know either of the characters involved; I neither hate nor like either. I think that in my entire life I’ve only hated one individual, that is a mighty powerful emotion reserved only for someone that at one time was very close to you and caused great harm.

My interest in this case is a tad clinical, I’m not emotionally involved, I am just interested in learning from it.

.Agreed. Especially with the first statement. Because Zimmerman felt the need to unnecessarily get out of his car, another human being is dead and there is a very volatile situation picking up speed because of it.

Fred Hansen
03-28-2012, 11:11
nah, that describes me and everyone I know. he was probably referencing the drivel posted below....:rofl:

I'll bet your head exploded when the wise latino™ Democrat™ Geraldo blamed Trayvon's™ hoodie for the shooting. :uglylol:

http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/theticket/rush-cspan-hoodie.jpg

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 12:06
I just heard a news report Trayvon had "something in his system"... I think they said marijuana... anyone else heard this?

His supporters have again claimed this is "irrelevant"

RussP
03-28-2012, 12:18
I just heard a news report Trayvon had "something in his system"... I think they said marijuana... anyone else heard this?

His supporters have again claimed this is "irrelevant"Could you find a link to a non-verbal report, please?

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 12:22
Could you find a link to a non-verbal report, please?

I'm trying to find it now... I keep coming up with reports from a few days ago that he was a marijuana "dealer"... however I know they said autopsy in the blurb (sorry, I was in the kitchen when it popped across).... it was on HLN.

IGF

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 12:30
Also, which I found extremely odd.... HLN is having an interview with the mortician, that prepared Martin's body, tonight.

Why do I have this feeling this is gonna be used against Zimmerman? We don't know how honest this guy is, and you know knuckleheads are gonna think the mortician's opinion is as good as the DA or the Coroner.

IGF

EmbryRiddle
03-28-2012, 12:43
:rofl:

I'll bet your head exploded when the wise latino™ Democrat™ Geraldo blamed Trayvon's™ hoodie for the shooting. :uglylol:

http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/theticket/rush-cspan-hoodie.jpg

LoL, nope, because that is probably true...

dpadams6
03-28-2012, 13:18
LoL, nope, because that is probably true...

Rep Bobby rush. What a tool

Fred Hansen
03-28-2012, 13:25
LoL, nope, because that is probably true...Another wise latino™ Democrat™ victory.

Score so far:

Wise Latino™ Democrats™ 2

Misunderstood Playa™ w/hoodie 0

:thumbsup:

Bren
03-28-2012, 13:28
Absent is the witness "John", an actual eyewitness.

I haven't seen that one mentioned anywhere.

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 13:42
I haven't seen that one mentioned anywhere.

He's been mentioned several places, was interviewed by a TV station, etc. (face hidden of course)

redbaron007
03-28-2012, 14:17
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

Another report indicating support for Zimmerman's story that Trayvon Martin attacked him and was the aggressor. And about Trayvon's suspension for a drug related infraction.

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin

Found that while googling......


[snip].....
But hey, he has a slim chance I suppose, anything can happen. Witness: Says it was SD...but that doesn't make it so...
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

I haven't seen that one mentioned anywhere.


FYI Bren,

Here are a few articles that have been posted. I think they all say the same thing.


:wavey:

red

Bren
03-28-2012, 14:28
He's been mentioned several places, was interviewed by a TV station, etc. (face hidden of course)

Interesting. I looked him up. I can see why CNN chose to ignore him. There isn't much to the story anyhow, but an eyewitness supporting the side CNN is NOT on would be terrible for them.

I noticed Fox News isn't nearly as interested in the story.

ballr4lyf
03-28-2012, 14:42
I noticed Fox News isn't nearly as interested in the story.

That's smart of them... Keep their nose clean until the facts come out.

HKLovingIT
03-28-2012, 14:45
Absent is the witness "John", an actual eyewitness.


Yes the two ladies at the end who actually saw nothing were not very compelling. Couple soccer moms. All GT members should watch that and remember that's who makes up juries. Always decline trial by jury and press for trial by panel of three judges. :wavey:

dpadams6
03-28-2012, 14:45
rep bobby rush is a former black panther.....that explains it all

whoflungdo
03-28-2012, 14:46
Yes the two ladies at the end who actually saw nothing were not very compelling. Couple soccer moms. All GT members should watch that and remember that's who makes up juries. Always decline trial by jury and press for trial by panel of three judges. :wavey:

And were giving their opinion as facts...

redbaron007
03-28-2012, 14:48
Check out this video (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/03/27/dem_congressman_trayvon_was_hunted_down_like_a_dog_shot_down_in_the_street.html); it shows the Rep from Miami.

:wavey:

red

HKLovingIT
03-28-2012, 14:51
And were giving their opinion as facts...


Yep. Absolutely. I almost expected one of them to blurt out that this hurt my feelings and upset my tummy. http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

Tiro Fijo
03-28-2012, 14:57
...I noticed Fox News isn't nearly as interested in the story.


O'Reilly as covered it several time as well as Hannity.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2012/03/27/bill-oreilly-trayvon-martin-case-takes-intense-turn


The only problem I have is that most lawyers, whether Conservative or Left Wing loon, are not real firearm/self defense savvy as lawyers by nature are people who resolve conflicts through negotiation/litigation/arbitration. Bren, notice that I said MOST and not all. :whistling: :supergrin:

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 16:00
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html)

cphilip
03-28-2012, 16:49
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html)

There is one completely missing witness in that account. And the most important one at that. Not to mention most of the statements from "witnesses" appear to be conjecture.

RussP
03-28-2012, 17:03
There is one completely missing witness in that account. And the most important one at that. Not to mention most of the statements from "witnesses" appear to be conjecture."John"

jack76590
03-28-2012, 17:47
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case (http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html)

Pictures in that link - I assume Trayvon on the left - are more honest. It shows Trayvon has big, healthy young fellow and George as pretty average looking guy about to enter middle age.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 18:05
http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909685-video-reveals-no-blood-or-bruises-on-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman

police surveillance video...

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 18:12
Question - If Zimmermans gun was concealed how did Trayvon go for his gun?

cphilip
03-28-2012, 18:15
Where did this story about Zimmerman telling his friend the gun accidentally went off come from? Not sure I have ever heard that one before.

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 18:16
http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909685-video-reveals-no-blood-or-bruises-on-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman

police surveillance video...

It's quite possible when he was treated at the scene, he was cleaned up by paramedics who were inspecting his injuries.

Question - If Zimmermans gun was concealed how did Trayvon go for his gun?

It's quite possible Zimmerman drew the gun during the assault(or it fell out), and when Trayvon saw him w/ a gun, a struggle ensued over the gun.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 18:19
It's quite possible when he was treated at the scene, he was cleaned up by paramedics who were inspecting his injuries.



It's quite possible Zimmerman drew the gun during the assault(or it fell out), and when Trayvon saw him w/ a gun, a struggle ensued over the gun.

Probably, but what about blood on his shirt...plus his nose looks pretty god for being broken...

Would Trayvon than be the one "standing his ground?"

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 18:25
Probably, but what about blood on his shirt...plus his nose looks pretty god for being broken...

Would Trayvon than be the one "standing his ground?"

Blood on his shirt.... he was wearing a jacket. It may well be covered. I doubt a cop just lied in his report to support Zimmerman.

As for his nose... The video was a little grainy to really be able to look at his nose that closely and tell if there was swelling, if it was crooked, etc. Just because it wasn't bleeding all over the place, doesn't mean it wasn't broken.

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 18:31
OK, I just watched the video several more times, trying to get a look at his face... He never really does give a "straight on" look at the camera, so it's hard to tell, but the best I can gather:

:10 -- To me, it looks like he has some bruising under his right eye... I see a little red there.. I don't think its wet blood, but more like srapes/dried blood maybe. It could also be some purplish bruising.

1:21-- The bridge of his nose (almost right between his eyes) doesn't look right. His nose may very well be broken. To me, the top of his nose looks "flat" (almost like the bottom of your thumb) Again at this point I can see what I think is blood under his right eye(it may just be purple bruising).

cphilip
03-28-2012, 18:31
I think that there has been no confirmation of the "broken" nose. Bloody nose has been most often the phrase I have seen. Broken seems may be an exaggeration or mistake. I don't think thats been confirmed for sure.

I can't really tell much from the video.

Misty02
03-28-2012, 18:34
State attorney Angela Corey indicated her office, not a grand jury, will decide whether to bring charges in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html

.

IndyGunFreak
03-28-2012, 18:44
State attorney Angela Corey indicated her office, not a grand jury, will decide whether to bring charges in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html

.

Interesting... I'm not sure if that's good or bad for Zimmerman. She seems kind of "no nonsense"... so if he's really not guilty, this is probably good for him.

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 18:45
It's quite possible Zimmerman drew the gun during the assault(or it fell out), and when Trayvon saw him w/ a gun, a struggle ensued over the gun.
I read somewhere it fell out during their struggle, but I don't recall where and don't think it was any of the police documents, so don't put much stock in it.

I don't wish to engage in speculation, but I have not heard any account yet that purported that Zimmerman had produced the pistol before the struggle between Martin and Z ensued. Of course, Z is presumably the only known living "witness" to that portion of the encounter.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 18:55
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense?ocid=twitter

Al Sharpton interviewing one of the mothers of a 13 year old boy/witness...

ATW525
03-28-2012, 19:06
Question - If Zimmermans gun was concealed how did Trayvon go for his gun?

His shirt could have ridden up during the fight, Trayvon could have felt during the struggle or perhaps it fell it while he was on the ground.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 19:11
His shirt could have ridden up during the fight, Trayvon could have felt during the struggle or perhaps it fell it while he was on the ground.

If that is the case does that change that idea that Trayvon's actions were in self defense...

Everyone has been saying that Zimmerman was in fear for his life...if the gun is present does that mean that maybe Trayvon was in fear for his life?

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 19:19
State attorney Angela Corey indicated her office, not a grand jury, will decide whether to bring charges in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html

.
Appreciate that link. I was just trying to find out some more about her today.

Seems like she has a mixed reputation in the minority community. I guess all anyone could ask is for a prosecutor who was out to find the facts and impartially imply the law. I suppose the Governor is trying to place this in the hands of somebody who's opinion will have the most credibility with the most people looking on. I always thought that was one of the purposes of convening a GJ, though I don't know anything about the demographics of that county and sometimes that starts looking stacked in favor of or against a particular minority.

Misty02
03-28-2012, 19:35
http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909685-video-reveals-no-blood-or-bruises-on-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman

police surveillance video...

That is George Zimmerman?

.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 19:41
That is George Zimmerman?

.

apparently...

ATW525
03-28-2012, 19:44
If that is the case does that change that idea that Trayvon's actions were in self defense...

Everyone has been saying that Zimmerman was in fear for his life...if the gun is present does that mean that maybe Trayvon was in fear for his life?

I suspect both parties were likely in fear of their lives.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 19:44
Police department report shows Trayvon Martins full name, date of birth, and street address but his body was tagged as a John Doe?

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 19:45
I suspect both parties were likely in fear of their lives.

Didn't mean to make it seem like I was calling you out...general question.

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 19:58
http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909685-video-reveals-no-blood-or-bruises-on-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman

police surveillance video...
Poor images. I don't think you can say much about injuries or their absence from this. Initial police report documented them, I'm sure the SFD medics who tended to him at the scene have documentation and I'd be quite surprised if the police didn't take photos once he was in the station. He reportedly was seen by medical personnel the next day as well. I'll wait for all of that to surface.

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 19:59
Police department report shows Trayvon Martins full name, date of birth, and street address but his body was tagged as a John Doe?
Probably were awaiting a positive ID.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 20:01
Probably were awaiting a positive ID.

3 days?

Misty02
03-28-2012, 20:01
apparently...

Doesn’t really look like either of his pictures. Additionally, he was supposedly nearly 100 lbs heavier than Martin. That man doesn’t look like he weighs 260 lbs.

ETA: Police report said he is 5'9" news articles said the weight.

.

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 20:03
3 days?
Could you share the link where you found this? You didn't indicate a time frame.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 20:04
Doesn’t really look like either of his pictures. Additionally, he was supposedly nearly 100 lbs heavier than Martin. That man doesn’t look like he weighs 260 lbs.

ETA: Policy report said he is 5'9" news articles said the weight.

.

Maybe 210 from the pic but I am no expert.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 20:12
Could you share the link where you found this? You didn't indicate a time frame.

They mention it in the video.

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 20:13
They mention it in the video.
Thanks. I was just watching the video with the sound off. I'll check it out when I get a chance.

4Rules
03-28-2012, 20:21
Question - If Zimmermans gun was concealed how did Trayvon go for his gun?

If you punch me in the face, knock me down, straddle me, and are beating my head off the pavement, please don't act surprised just because I draw on you. And, in that next moment, if you have immediately stopped beating my head off the pavement, please don't act surprised if I do not shoot you with the pistol that I have drawn because you were beating my head off the pavement.

If you attempt to disarm me of my pistol - the pistol that I have drawn because you were beating my head off the pavement - please don't act surprised when I shoot you.

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 20:24
If you punch me in the face, knock me down, straddle me, and are beating my head off the pavement, please don't act surprised just because I draw on you. And, in that next moment, if you have immediately stopped beating my head off the pavement, please don't act surprised if I do not shoot you with the pistol that I have drawn because you were beating my head off the pavement.

If you attempt to disarm me of my pistol - the pistol that I have drawn because you were beating my head off the pavement - please don't act surprised when I shoot you.

Couple of things I read said Zimmerman said that Trayvon went for his gun...

I guess the question is when?

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 20:26
They mention it in the video.
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/DocCasualty/BSMeter.gif

I think I'll wait for more information on that then this particular talking head had to share.

If that is true and you want we to guess, I'd say that he was appropriately tagged John Doe initially and despite knowing his real ID later that night, nobody ever changed the tag.

Of course it could be part of a grand conspiracy . . . :whistling:

rahrah12
03-28-2012, 20:30
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/DocCasualty/BSMeter.gif

I think I'll wait for more information on that then this particular talking head had to share.

If that is true and you want we to guess, I'd say that he was appropriately tagged John Doe initially and despite knowing his real ID later that night, nobody ever changed the tag.

Of course it could be part of a grand conspiracy . . . :whistling:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-chief-trayvon-martin-case-resigns-temporarily-amid/story?id=15977847#.T3PI7-1IipH

Repeated in here also...towards the bottom...maybe it is wrong...dunno

DocCasualty
03-28-2012, 20:34
http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-chief-trayvon-martin-case-resigns-temporarily-amid/story?id=15977847#.T3PI7-1IipH

Repeated in here also...towards the bottom...maybe it is wrong...dunno
The Martin family also criticized the Sanford police department for failing to identify their son more quickly. Martin's body was left in the morgue for three days, classified as a "John Doe." The family charges that officers didn't bother to ask neighbors if they recognized Martin, who had been staying with his father in the neighborhood.What is the family trying to say here? They did not know he was dead for three days? Is that true? Somebody above mentioned he was identified within 12 hours and they knew. I smell a red herring.

Misty02
03-28-2012, 20:59
What is the family trying to say here? They did not know he was dead for three days? Is that true? Somebody above mentioned he was identified within 12 hours and they knew. I smell a red herring.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html

When police approached Trayvon’s body on the grassy path between the townhouse back porches, they found no I.D. on him. Police ran his fingerprints, but found no record that would help identify him.

When he didn’t return back to the townhouse, it would be another 12 hours before Tracy Martin found out his son was dead.

“I started making calls to see if he was arrested,” he said.

Calls to 911 led him to missing persons, where he left a description of his son. Soon a marked patrol car followed by detectives arrived at Green’s rented townhouse.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy

Warp
03-28-2012, 21:08
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html

Of course he (parent) started making calls to see if he (Trayvon) was arrested. His attitude, behavior and history makes "being arrested" a first guess for why he didn't come back.

jack76590
03-28-2012, 22:10
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html

Do you think it is possible Martin had weapon and police have not yet reported that fact? Quote from article.

"Zimmerman told the dispatchers: “He has his hand in his waistband. ... He has something in his hand.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy

Warp
03-28-2012, 22:13
Do you think it is possible Martin had weapon and police have not yet reported that fact?

I doubt it. He probably had to hold his pants up so that, you know, they wouldn't fall down around his ankles and prevent him from running at Zimmerman

Given what has come to light about Trayvon it wouldn't surprise me in the least, though.

Misty02
03-29-2012, 05:05
Do you think it is possible Martin had weapon and police have not yet reported that fact? Quote from article.

"Zimmerman told the dispatchers: “He has his hand in his waistband. ... He has something in his hand.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy


None has been reported yet. Assuming he reached for something, it could have just as likely been his cell phone or just trying to adjust his pants. Who knows?

.

OctoberRust
03-29-2012, 06:39
Probably, but what about blood on his shirt...plus his nose looks pretty god for being broken...

Would Trayvon than be the one "standing his ground?"


Just from personal experience, my girlfriend's nose was broken from a car wreck @ 70 mph. When I cleaned her up, the blood from her nose stopped pretty quick. I couldn't really tell it was broken, and when she was insisting it was, I thought she just had a low pain tolerance. It wasn't until we were in the ER and she was getting x rayed when the doctor said her nose was broken.

OctoberRust
03-29-2012, 06:46
I doubt it. He probably had to hold his pants up so that, you know, they wouldn't fall down around his ankles and prevent him from running at Zimmerman



Actin' like a foo wid yo pants on da ground! :rofl:

ATW525
03-29-2012, 08:02
Do you think it is possible Martin had weapon and police have not yet reported that fact? Quote from article.

"Zimmerman told the dispatchers: “He has his hand in his waistband. ... He has something in his hand.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy

I think if he had a weapon, it would have been "leaked" by now. However, with the new information concerning him possibly being a drug dealer, I have wondered if he might have been ditching drugs during the time that Zimmerman lost sight of him.

Bilbo Bagins
03-29-2012, 08:09
Doesn’t really look like either of his pictures. Additionally, he was supposedly nearly 100 lbs heavier than Martin. That man doesn’t look like he weighs 260 lbs.

ETA: Police report said he is 5'9" news articles said the weight.

.

My guess at 5'9" he is about 180. The original photo where he is has hair and is wearing an orange shirt, he might have be 220 or something like that. The pictures at the police station and when he is bald shows a guy who probably did some sort of crash diet. Thinner, but baggy skin and little musclature. No offense to those people who need to do it to lose weight, but doing that crap to your body makes you a weakling. I can see how some athletic teenager could physically get the upper hand and beat the crap out of someone like that.

I see it all the time. I'm a civilian sheepdog. I protect the sheep from the wolves out there.

The problem is most wannabes who say that couldn't do 5 push-up if they had to, and can't run 50 yard without getting winded and lightheaded.

Zimmerman was playing sheepdog, and approached a teenager who he though was "up to something". Zimmerman went up against a 17 year old high school football player. A tall, Miami teenager, in his physical prime, and Zimmerman went up to him all alone and asked him who he was and what he was up to, then turned his back on him. No bones about it, Zimmerman is not a tough guy or a cop and he unfortunately found out the hard way.

PAGunner
03-29-2012, 09:01
Because ZMan wanted to play Policeman and placed himself in an unnecessary bad situation.

Now all the antis are out in force (with a Liberal White House) and my Florida Gun Rights are going to be targeted.

Let the Police Officers do their job.

Zim was no doubt a wanna be cop, getting out of his car was dumb, but not illegal and didn't threaten Martin. He was walking back to his car, based on the proximity of the fight and shooting to where Zim's vehicle was, and there was a witness. In a nutshell that is why he isn't in jail.

Could Zim have avoided the situation by being smart and staying in his car, ya absolutely, but Martin attacking Zim was unprovoked and therefore self defense. Martin approaching Zim by confronting and attacking Zim makes him the aggressor.

We do agree, let the police do their job. This is why I'm upset with the lynch mob mentality. If evidence comes out showing Zim was the aggressor, then charges should and will be filed.

As far as gun rights in Florida, I live in south Florida and am very sensitive to the topic. Which is why we need to stick up for our rights with RATIONAL arguments, not emotional garbage the lynch mob is using.

Bilbo Bagins
03-29-2012, 09:53
Zim was no doubt a wanna be cop, getting out of his car was dumb, but not illegal and didn't threaten Martin. He was walking back to his car, based on the proximity of the fight and shooting to where Zim's vehicle was, and there was a witness. In a nutshell that is why he isn't in jail.

Could Zim have avoided the situation by being smart and staying in his car, ya absolutely, but Martin attacking Zim was unprovoked and therefore self defense. Martin approaching Zim by confronting and attacking Zim makes him the aggressor.

We do agree, let the police do their job. This is why I'm upset with the lynch mob mentality. If evidence comes out showing Zim was the aggressor, then charges should and will be filed.

As far as gun rights in Florida, I live in south Florida and am very sensitive to the topic. Which is why we need to stick up for our rights with RATIONAL arguments, not emotional garbage the lynch mob is using.

+1 I will admit I think Zimmerman is a wannabe, mall ninja tool, however that does not give anyone the right to beat or assault anyone.

Think of someone who is mentally handicap or someone with Tourettes, with all due respect to those who have kids or relatives who are, do I as an individual walking down the street have a right to punch out and ground and pound anyone who says something stupid to me.

Can I punch out anyone who thinks I look shifty? Can I punch out that store clerk that is following me around the store, because I'm dressed like a slob? Can I as a white man, walk thru a black neighborhood, and punch out and ground and pound the first person who ask what I'm doing there and I don't belong. :dunno:

Warp
03-29-2012, 10:06
+1 I will admit I think Zimmerman is a wannabe, mall ninja tool, however that does not give anyone the right to beat or assault anyone.

Think of someone who is mentally handicap or someone with Tourettes, with all due respect to those who have kids or relatives who are, do I as an individual walking down the street have a right to punch out and ground and pound anyone who says something stupid to me.

Can I punch out anyone who thinks I look shifty? Can I punch out that store clerk that is following me around the store, because I'm dressed like a slob? Can I as a white man, walk thru a black neighborhood, and punch out and ground and pound the first person who ask what I'm doing there and I don't belong. :dunno:

Why do you think this??

bear62
03-29-2012, 12:46
I'm a white male senior citizen and a conservative dresser. When I'm visiting in Florida I'm normally dressed in shorts, polo shirt and boat shoes.

Here's a question for all you gunnies ..... If I were walking through Zimmerman's neighborhood, what are the chances that Zimmerman would follow and report me to 911??

Just wondering .......... :wavey:

whoflungdo
03-29-2012, 12:48
I'm a white male senior citizen and a conservative dresser. When I'm visiting in Florida I'm normally dressed in shorts, polo shirt and boat shoes.

Here's a question for all you gunnies ..... If I were walking through Zimmerman's neighborhood, what are the chances that Zimmerman would follow and report me to 911??

Just wondering .......... :wavey:

You need to wait till after the riots to visit Florida.. Jus sayin'...

OctoberRust
03-29-2012, 12:51
I'm a white male senior citizen and a conservative dresser. When I'm visiting in Florida I'm normally dressed in shorts, polo shirt and boat shoes.

Here's a question for all you gunnies ..... If I were walking through Zimmerman's neighborhood, what are the chances that Zimmerman would follow and report me to 911??

Just wondering .......... :wavey:


Leave your race out of it, and it wouldn't matter regardless. If you dressed like that and were walking around, not looking into random houses.

Now let's Revisit what Tyrone was dressed in. It SOUNDS like he was wearing xxl baggy pants and was constantly holding his "waist" to keep those up. Yea if you dressed like that and were going up to random houses, I bet he'd be reporting you too, even if you were as white as snow.

Tiro Fijo
03-29-2012, 13:06
Just saw that Zimmerman's brother is being interviewed on CNN tonight by that moron Piers Morgan. :upeyes: :faint:

bear62
03-29-2012, 13:21
Just saw that Zimmerman's brother is being interviewed on CNN tonight by that moron Piers Morgan. :upeyes: :faint:

I normally don't watch CNN, but may have to tune in tonight..

Roger1079
03-29-2012, 13:31
Leave your race out of it, and it wouldn't matter regardless. If you dressed like that and were walking around, not looking into random houses.

Now let's Revisit what Tyrone was dressed in. It SOUNDS like he was wearing xxl baggy pants and was constantly holding his "waist" to keep those up. Yea if you dressed like that and were going up to random houses, I bet he'd be reporting you too, even if you were as white as snow.Actually being that he mentioned he is a senior citizen, Zimmerman probably would have thought if he was looking in random house windows that he might have Alzheimers and may be lost and in need of help.

B.Reid
03-29-2012, 13:36
I'm a white male senior citizen and a conservative dresser. When I'm visiting in Florida I'm normally dressed in shorts, polo shirt and boat shoes.

Here's a question for all you gunnies ..... If I were walking through Zimmerman's neighborhood, what are the chances that Zimmerman would follow and report me to 911??

Just wondering .......... :wavey:

I'm guessing the neighborhood watch people know who lives in their gated community. Now if you dressed like a thug you will be treated like a thug. Regardless of age or race.

Bren
03-29-2012, 13:42
I'm a white male senior citizen and a conservative dresser. When I'm visiting in Florida I'm normally dressed in shorts, polo shirt and boat shoes.

Here's a question for all you gunnies ..... If I were walking through Zimmerman's neighborhood, what are the chances that Zimmerman would follow and report me to 911??

Just wondering .......... :wavey:

Are you suggesting that race, age and dress are not indicators of the likelihood you are going to commit a crime? All the crime statistics available in America say that race and age are very strong predictors and how you're dressed, in my experience, is a good indicator of whether you are an exception to those rules.

IF you are watching strangers, those are the best indications you are going to get, unless you wait for a crime to happen. Add "gated community at night" and a "suspicious person" call from neighborhood watch is probably valid.

I think it would be as idiotic for neighborhood watch to ignore those factors as it is for TSA to play colorblind and strip search somebody's grandma, while ignoring a dozen muslim passengers.

B.Reid
03-29-2012, 14:06
When I was in my teens I knew guys like this, they walk around neighborhoods looking for open garages and unlocked cars. If your home is burglarized there is a good chance that it was the teenager down the street. He knows when you go to work and come home. This gives him at least 8 hours to go through your home.

Warp
03-29-2012, 14:08
Are you suggesting that race, age and dress are not indicators of the likelihood you are going to commit a crime? All the crime statistics available in America say that race and age are very strong predictors and how you're dressed, in my experience, is a good indicator of whether you are an exception to those rules.


But that isn't politically correct.

Age is the biggest, IMO.

Manner of dress and general behavior/vibe/the way you carry yourself are next.

In the case of Trayvon I guestimate that, as a criminal, he was probably acting like and looking like a criminal.

Bren
03-29-2012, 14:24
But that isn't politically correct.

Age is the biggest, IMO.

Manner of dress and general behavior/vibe/the way you carry yourself are next.

No need to rely on opinion -go check out the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Except for a few years when they declined to include race, they track race/age/sex/etc/ correlated to specific types of crime. Different races (all races included) excel in different areas - some to an extent you'd find hard to believe.

RussP
03-29-2012, 16:22
But that isn't politically correct.

Age is the biggest, IMO.

Manner of dress and general behavior/vibe/the way you carry yourself are next.

In the case of Trayvon I guestimate that, as a criminal, he was probably acting like and looking like a criminal.Where did you read he's ever been convicted of a crime?

Tiro Fijo
03-29-2012, 16:24
No need to rely on opinion -go check out the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Except for a few years when they declined to include race, they track race/age/sex/etc/ correlated to specific types of crime. Different races (all races included) excel in different areas - some to an extent you'd find hard to believe.


In 1986 the FBI stopped classifying Hispanic as a category and threw them into the White category. Believe it or not.

Warp
03-29-2012, 16:41
Where did you read he's ever been convicted of a crime?

Bits and pieces of information about jewelry/burglary

School suspension for drugs or drug paraphernalia

His own social media posts/conversations about selling 'plants'

etc

Sure seem to paint a picture that Trayvon Martin was involved in criminal activities.

Tiro Fijo
03-29-2012, 17:30
Bits and pieces of information about jewelry/burglary

School suspension for drugs or drug paraphernalia

His own social media posts/conversations about selling 'plants'

etc

Sure seem to paint a picture that Trayvon Martin was involved in criminal activities.


Imagine that. :whistling:

jdavionic
03-29-2012, 18:04
Just from personal experience, my girlfriend's nose was broken from a car wreck @ 70 mph. When I cleaned her up, the blood from her nose stopped pretty quick. I couldn't really tell it was broken, and when she was insisting it was, I thought she just had a low pain tolerance. It wasn't until we were in the ER and she was getting x rayed when the doctor said her nose was broken.

I've broken my nose in fights (kickboxing). On one occasion, I got a broken nose in a fight, got it cleaned up between rounds, and then after the fight was over...and then went out with friends. Looking at me, you could not tell it was broken...until the next morning. I looked like a raccoon. Just curious what Zimmerman looked like a few days after the incident.

Misty02
03-29-2012, 18:29
I've broken my nose in fights (kickboxing). On one occasion, I got a broken nose in a fight, got it cleaned up between rounds, and then after the fight was over...and then went out with friends. Looking at me, you could not tell it was broken...until the next morning. I looked like a raccoon. Just curious what Zimmerman looked like a few days after the incident.

If they were smart they documented the next couple of weeks with date stamped pictures. Bruises may take days to show up.

.

Misty02
03-29-2012, 18:31
Where did you read he's ever been convicted of a crime?

I believe a person can be a criminal and be lucky enough to have not been caught before. It doesn’t change the fact they are a criminal, it just means they’re not a convicted one.

.

Roger1079
03-29-2012, 18:43
I just dislike how certain people believe it always has to be racially motivated when it comes to situations like these. If this was an african american shooting another african american or an african american shooting a caucasian or hispanic person, this would have gotten 5 minutes of attention from the mainstream media and race never would have come into play.

Why can't this just be looked at for what it was? A very unfortunate incident where an altercation between two people turned deadly for one of the involved parties.

Warp
03-29-2012, 18:48
Why can't this just be looked at for what it was? A very unfortunate incident where an altercation between two people turned deadly for one of the involved parties.

Because too many politicians and media outlets have agendas to push and too many sheeple are all too happy to buy into it.

Misty02
03-29-2012, 19:09
I just dislike how certain people believe it always has to be racially motivated when it comes to situations like these. If this was an african american shooting another african american or an african american shooting a caucasian or hispanic person, this would have gotten 5 minutes of attention from the mainstream media and race never would have come into play.

Why can't this just be looked at for what it was? A very unfortunate incident where an altercation between two people turned deadly for one of the involved parties.

Would you be able to let it go easily if your child was killed on his way back home from the store and there was no evidence that he was killed in the commission of a crime? I can understand the parents wanting justice, even if they don’t quite understand what that means.

Other people assisted in making this a racial issue, they are all as much to blame. The parents found an opportunity to get the so called justice by jumping on that wagon too. As much as I try I can’t be certain of how far I might go if I were in their place. I know there are certain things I would put a stop to, like the NBP bounty and posters; other than that…. well, I’m really not so sure.


.

Warp
03-29-2012, 19:33
Where did you read he's ever been convicted of a crime?

Russ, I almost forgot.

This:

When he didn’t return back to the townhouse, it would be another 12 hours before Tracy Martin found out his son was dead.

“I started making calls to see if he was arrested,” he said

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-print/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy



Especially leads me to believe Trayvon was a criminal. How many parents' initial reaction to their son not being home on time is making calls to see if he had been arrested? That certainly wouldn't have been the first calls my parents made.

Roger1079
03-29-2012, 19:36
Would you be able to let it go easily if your child was killed on his way back home from the store and there was no evidence that he was killed in the commission of a crime? I can understand the parents wanting justice, even if they don’t quite understand what that means.

Other people assisted in making this a racial issue, they are all as much to blame. The parents found an opportunity to get the so called justice by jumping on that wagon too. As much as I try I can’t be certain of how far I might go if I were in their place. I know there are certain things I would put a stop to, like the NBP bounty and posters; other than that…. well, I’m really not so sure.

.
Everyone must be held accountable for their own actions. PERIOD. If it were my son, I would first and foremost want the investigation and evidence to lead me to the TRUTH. If it turns out that the evidence leads to Zimmerman being in the wrong and guilty of a crime, I would love to be present during his trial and sentencing watching justice being served.

However if the evidence led in the other direction and my son was the aggressor and brought his death on himself, then there is nothing more I can do than be grief stricken over the fact that my child made such a foolish decision and got himself killed in the process.

If Treyvon was the aggressor than justice has already been served. If Zimmerman was the aggressor then justice WILL be served.

Either way, my issue is with the media spinning it as a racially motivated crime rather than what the evidence makes it appear to be. (From the little evidence we have of course.)

RussP
03-29-2012, 19:41
Bits and pieces of information about jewelry/burglary

School suspension for drugs or drug paraphernalia

His own social media posts/conversations about selling 'plants'

etc

Sure seem to paint a picture that Trayvon Martin was involved in criminal activities.
I believe a person can be a criminal and be lucky enough to have not been caught before. It doesn’t change the fact they are a criminal, it just means they’re not a convicted one.

.If I recall correctly, burglary cops could not connect any of the jewelry to reported thefts.

I'll ask again, why was the screwdriver in his backpack not considered a weapon? Isn't there zero tolerance for bringing weapons to school?

What was the marijuana offense again? Were criminal charges filed? What did he tell his mother about that?

Yeah, that paints a clear picture, using the paint from the bits and pieces paint can.

And yes, people are involved in criminal activities that have not been caught, yet... :cool:

Warp
03-29-2012, 19:53
If I recall correctly, burglary cops could not connect any of the jewelry to reported thefts.

I'll ask again, why was the screwdriver in his backpack not considered a weapon? Isn't there zero tolerance for bringing weapons to school?

What was the marijuana offense again? Were criminal charges filed? What did he tell his mother about that?

Yeah, that paints a clear picture, using the paint from the bits and pieces paint can.

And yes, people are involved in criminal activities that have not been caught, yet... :cool:

"Martin was suspended by Miami-Dade County schools because traces of marijuana were found in a plastic baggie in his book bag, family spokesman Ryan Julison said. Martin was serving the suspension when he was shot Feb. 26."

"The state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed Monday that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press."

"Also Monday, an attorney for Martin’s mother confirmed that she filed trademark applications for two slogans containing her son’s name: “Justice for Trayvon” and “I Am Trayvon.” The applications said the trademarks could be used for such things as DVDs and CDs."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martins-family-blames-police-for-leaking-info-on-marijuana-suspension-other-details/2012/03/27/gIQAGT8cdS_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

Misty02
03-29-2012, 20:59
Everyone must be held accountable for their own actions. PERIOD. If it were my son, I would first and foremost want the investigation and evidence to lead me to the TRUTH. If it turns out that the evidence leads to Zimmerman being in the wrong and guilty of a crime, I would love to be present during his trial and sentencing watching justice being served.

However if the evidence led in the other direction and my son was the aggressor and brought his death on himself, then there is nothing more I can do than be grief stricken over the fact that my child made such a foolish decision and got himself killed in the process.

If Treyvon was the aggressor than justice has already been served. If Zimmerman was the aggressor then justice WILL be served.

Either way, my issue is with the media spinning it as a racially motivated crime rather than what the evidence makes it appear to be. (From the little evidence we have of course.)

I don’t disagree.

The possibility still exists that even if Martin was the aggressor, his aggression could have been classified as self-defense if he was still alive to have his actions at the time judged.

If I recall correctly, burglary cops could not connect any of the jewelry to reported thefts.

I'll ask again, why was the screwdriver in his backpack not considered a weapon? Isn't there zero tolerance for bringing weapons to school?

What was the marijuana offense again? Were criminal charges filed? What did he tell his mother about that?

Yeah, that paints a clear picture, using the paint from the bits and pieces paint can.

And yes, people are involved in criminal activities that have not been caught, yet... :cool:

Questions that we as parents would have if our kids were involved in something like that. I have a feeling it won’t come up in any interview or in Zimmerman’s trial, if there is one.

As respect a screwdriver being a weapon, just about anything can be a weapon. As wild as the school boards are lately, even a paper gun; even they have to draw the line somewhere though. Heck, a well sharpened pencil could be just as much a weapon. What do you think I have at times where no weapons are allowed? A sturdy solid pen. :)


.

Misty02
03-29-2012, 21:01
"Martin was suspended by Miami-Dade County schools because traces of marijuana were found in a plastic baggie in his book bag, family spokesman Ryan Julison said. Martin was serving the suspension when he was shot Feb. 26."

"The state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed Monday that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press."

"Also Monday, an attorney for Martin’s mother confirmed that she filed trademark applications for two slogans containing her son’s name: “Justice for Trayvon” and “I Am Trayvon.” The applications said the trademarks could be used for such things as DVDs and CDs."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martins-family-blames-police-for-leaking-info-on-marijuana-suspension-other-details/2012/03/27/gIQAGT8cdS_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

That is what the “family” said, to my knowledge it hasn’t been confirmed by a school official or the police. That one can still change. Originally a teacher mentioned he was suspended for being tardy.

.

vkscott
03-29-2012, 23:43
In 1986 the FBI stopped classifying Hispanic as a category and threw them into the White category. Believe it or not.

Hispanic isn't a race, is it? I believe it is an ethnicity. I could be wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken :rofl:

Tiro Fijo
03-30-2012, 00:25
Hispanic isn't a race, is it? I believe it is an ethnicity. I could be wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken :rofl:


Reread my post, this time with your bifocals. I said CATEGORY. :upeyes: :wavey:

Roger1079
03-30-2012, 04:44
I don’t disagree.

The possibility still exists that even if Martin was the aggressor, his aggression could have been classified as self-defense if he was still alive to have his actions at the time judged. And that is a very valid argument. However with the little we do know to be fact without speculation at this point, (which more and more information seems to be trickling out daily), it seems that Zimmerman was attacked from behind on the way back to his vehicle after the initial contact.

Regardless of what happened before that, if Zimmerman had his back turned walking away, there was no immediate threat which makes Treyvon acting in self defense an impossibility.

I still stick to my original opinion of this situation. It could have all been avoided had Zimmerman just stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive. His extremely poor judgment caused this tragedy and that is something he will carry on his shoulders for the rest of his life no matter what happens now.

Questions that we as parents would have if our kids were involved in something like that. I have a feeling it won’t come up in any interview or in Zimmerman’s trial, if there is one.

.If it goes to trial and the prosecutor has half a brain, I bet it will come up.

The next question though is if Zimmerman ultimately is arrested, charged, and put on trial for this, is there any chance of a fair trial with what the media has done?

Bren
03-30-2012, 04:54
"The state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed Monday that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press."


That instantly causes me some doubt (being a lawyer working close to this area of law (other attorneys in my office specifically work with juvenile records)). Here and, I would think, most other places, a juvenile's arrest record is not open to public inspection, but the response to a public records request, as we do it, is always, "we have no public records responsive to this request." There could be a truck load of juvenile arrest records for the person, but they aren't public records, so we don't tell you they exist.

A crafty lawyer or reporter, wanting to support the Trayvon side, would know in advance that's the response that will be given and would also know that most people wouldn't know what it really means, which is nothing.

I'm calling BS on this one.

Edit: a quick google search says that some Florida juvenile records would be available, while others would not - hard to say, without having an insider in FL juvenile justice.

series1811
03-30-2012, 05:42
I read somewhere it fell out during their struggle, but I don't recall where and don't think it was any of the police documents, so don't put much stock in it.

I don't wish to engage in speculation, but I have not heard any account yet that purported that Zimmerman had produced the pistol before the struggle between Martin and Z ensued. Of course, Z is presumably the only known living "witness" to that portion of the encounter.

And Zimmerman would have to be an absolute (not partial as we kind of already know he is) moron, to have pulled his gun (thinking it would scare Martin, a common misconception among people who haven't been in deadly force encounters), then been attacked by Martin in self-defense when he saw it, and then shooting Martin, and then admitting it happened that way to the police.

vkscott
03-30-2012, 05:49
Reread my post, this time with your bifocals. I said CATEGORY. :upeyes: :wavey:

Oops my bad. :embarassed:

Misty02
03-30-2012, 05:53
And that is a very valid argument. However with the little we do know to be fact without speculation at this point, (which more and more information seems to be trickling out daily), it seems that Zimmerman was attacked from behind on the way back to his vehicle after the initial contact.

Regardless of what happened before that, if Zimmerman had his back turned walking away, there was no immediate threat which makes Treyvon acting in self defense an impossibility.

I still stick to my original opinion of this situation. It could have all been avoided had Zimmerman just stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive. His extremely poor judgment caused this tragedy and that is something he will carry on his shoulders for the rest of his life no matter what happens now.

If it goes to trial and the prosecutor has half a brain, I bet it will come up.

The next question though is if Zimmerman ultimately is arrested, charged, and put on trial for this, is there any chance of a fair trial with what the media has done?

One comment mentions Zimmerman was attacked from behind. Another comment mentions Zimmerman went for his phone after having exchanged words and that is when he was attacked. His dad mentions the exchange of words (remind me to put a lock on the mouth of anyone I may have talked with after such an incident and throw away the key). Assuming Zimmerman went for his phone and Martin saw this, then I can see how a physical attack on the person that had been following would make sense. I’m not saying is right, just that it would make sense. If he attacked when Zimmerman had disengaged from the conversation, had turned around and was on his way back to the vehicle (not wise to turn your back on a suspicious person) then I can would see Martin as the aggressor with little possibility of me thinking it was self-defense, unless Martin thought he was going back to the vehicle to get a weapon. No one will ever know what Martin was thinking at the time.

No argument on the staying in the car, that move was unwise and terribly dangerous.

Many things may come out at the trial that are irrelevant, just as some that are very relevant may be suppressed and no one will be allowed to put it on the table for consideration.

Finding an impartial jury is going to be difficult (to put it mildly). That is not a jury I would like to be a part of, depending on the ultimate outcome their lives and that of their family could be seriously impacted as well.

.

Misty02
03-30-2012, 06:01
And Zimmerman would have to be an absolute (not partial as we kind of already know he is) moron, to have pulled his gun (thinking it would scare Martin, a common misconception among people who haven't been in deadly force encounters), then been attacked by Martin in self-defense when he saw it, and then shooting Martin, and then admitting it happened that way to the police.

When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.

Misty02
03-30-2012, 06:04
That instantly causes me some doubt (being a lawyer working close to this area of law (other attorneys in my office specifically work with juvenile records)). Here and, I would think, most other places, a juvenile's arrest record is not open to public inspection, but the response to a public records request, as we do it, is always, "we have no public records responsive to this request." There could be a truck load of juvenile arrest records for the person, but they aren't public records, so we don't tell you they exist.

A crafty lawyer or reporter, wanting to support the Trayvon side, would know in advance that's the response that will be given and would also know that most people wouldn't know what it really means, which is nothing.

I'm calling BS on this one.

Edit: a quick google search says that some Florida juvenile records would be available, while others would not - hard to say, without having an insider in FL juvenile justice.

Thank you for explaining that one further.

.

RussP
03-30-2012, 07:29
And Zimmerman would have to be an absolute (not partial as we kind of already know he is) moron, to have pulled his gun (thinking it would scare Martin, a common misconception among people who haven't been in deadly force encounters), then been attacked by Martin in self-defense when he saw it, and then shooting Martin, and then admitting it happened that way to the police.
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?
.Misty, very interesting question. Interesting enough for its own thread. How about starting it? :supergrin:

Thanks...

PEC-Memphis
03-30-2012, 08:08
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.

Ah, the ole two-edged sword.

1. Yes, it would make sense to employ a ready position in the situation you describe; however, it makes more (orders of magnitude) sense to not put yourself in the situation if given the choice (as Zimmerman did). If the danger were great enough to require a ready position, it should have been avoided.

2. If you (as a completely innocent person) saw someone following you with a firearm at low ready, would you take this an act of aggression (a threat) - I believe I would. Provided that there was not a duty to retreat, could you legally respond to the threat? I believe so.

3. Provided that Martin was in a location where he could legally occupy and had not committed a crime, would it even be legal for Zimmerman to remove the firearm from the holster? In my opinion, it would be brandishing at the least - and perhaps aggravated assault; either of which would probably disqualify self-defense on Zimmerman's part - and support self-defense on Martin's part.

SpringerTGO
03-30-2012, 08:15
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.

As the media is pointing out (for a civilian), drawing a weapon and following someone because of their appearance/race might not be a good idea.

As a white person, if I was walking in a predominantly black neighborhood, I would be concerned if a black person was following me with a weapon drawn in the low and ready position. I might even attack him, given the opportunity.

HexHead
03-30-2012, 08:15
And that is a very valid argument. However with the little we do know to be fact without speculation at this point, (which more and more information seems to be trickling out daily), it seems that Zimmerman was attacked from behind on the way back to his vehicle after the initial contact.

Regardless of what happened before that, if Zimmerman had his back turned walking away, there was no immediate threat which makes Treyvon acting in self defense an impossibility.

I still stick to my original opinion of this situation. It could have all been avoided had Zimmerman just stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive. His extremely poor judgment caused this tragedy and that is something he will carry on his shoulders for the rest of his life no matter what happens now.

If it goes to trial and the prosecutor has half a brain, I bet it will come up.

The next question though is if Zimmerman ultimately is arrested, charged, and put on trial for this, is there any chance of a fair trial with what the media has done?

First of all, IMO Zimmerman was doing his job, watching Martin. He told the dispatcher, "they always get away" referring to the time it takes for the police to,show up. Let's ot forget there had been a rash of buglaries there. So he was watching to see where Martin went. He returned towards his vehicle when advised to by the dispatcher.

While I don't think he will, nor should stand trial, if Casey Anthony can get a fair trial in FL, anyone can. All he did was kill a thug in self defense, not a 3 year old.

Roger1079
03-30-2012, 08:21
As the media is pointing out (for a civilian), drawing a weapon and following someone because of their appearance/race might not be a good idea.
Aside from the fact that it is a bad idea, it is illegal. A CCW should never leave the holster unless you plan to shoot in a self defense situation, period.

Roger1079
03-30-2012, 08:25
if Casey Anthony can get a fair trial in FL, anyone can.Good point. Edited out the stuff I cannot agree with because there is still quite a bit missing from the story at this point.

bear62
03-30-2012, 08:56
Aside from the fact that it is a bad idea, it is illegal. A CCW should never leave the holster unless you plan to shoot in a self defense situation, period.

Agree with you, Roger ......... Here in Colorado a drawn handgun would fall in the "menacing" category.......

Warp
03-30-2012, 09:34
I still stick to my original opinion of this situation. It could have all been avoided had Zimmerman just stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive. His extremely poor judgment caused this tragedy and that is something he will carry on his shoulders for the rest of his life no matter what happens now.

Absolutely.



When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.

No. He is neighborhood watch. He does not seem to have any reason to believe the person is armed or is committing/is about to commit/just commit a violent crime. It is far beyond any capacity he might have to follow somebody with a gun drawn.

Fortunately, for Zimmerman, it does not currently appear that he did so.

jack76590
03-30-2012, 09:57
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.

It would make no sense to me. If you feel the need to draw your weapon you must be concerned about a potential immediate attack.

You are not a police officer, so withdrawal from situation. Maybe having firearm ready as you withdrew could be justified however.

Frankly, this whole neighborhood watch thing is making less and less sense to me. Sure if you see something report it, but don't go following people or going on patrol.

Misty02
03-30-2012, 10:13
Misty, very interesting question. Interesting enough for its own thread. How about starting it?

Thanks...

Na, I’m shy! :embarassed: It may also not make sense to others when out of context (comment that brought the question and previous comments as well).

As the media is pointing out (for a civilian), drawing a weapon and following someone because of their appearance/race might not be a good idea.

We don’t need the media to point that out for us, hopefully.

Aside from the fact that it is a bad idea, it is illegal. A CCW should never leave the holster unless you plan to shoot in a self defense situation, period.

In my uneducated opinion, it could be deadly to develop hard rules where self-defense is concerned that don’t allow adjustment to the actual situation being faced. Yes, there are certain lines I have no intentions of ever crossing but the rest of my physical, mental and emotional training needs to allow flexibility to address specifics unknown to me now.

For the sake of argument assume I’m the one being followed. I’ve made some turns, I’ve hidden, there is little doubt that an unknown person with unknown intentions is after me. I would not hesitate to make a run for my car or other cover/concealment place with my firearm drawn and ready to address being confronted at that point.

There could be times when your firearm may need to leave its holster and not a shot be fired. I do agree that if you draw it, it is not to be for intimidation, if necessary the shot is to be fired.

.

Misty02
03-30-2012, 10:22
Absolutely.





No. He is neighborhood watch. He does not seem to have any reason to believe the person is armed or is committing/is about to commit/just commit a violent crime. It is far beyond any capacity he might have to follow somebody with a gun drawn.

Fortunately, for Zimmerman, it does not currently appear that he did so.

I’ve read no reports to that effect either. In this case getting out of the car was not appropriate. Following someone you know nothing about alone was not appropriate. (My personal opinions that have absolutely nothing to do with what is legal or not)

The comment about following with a drawn weapon was more in the general sense and not necessarily specific to Zimmerman's case/side. I can’t see myself following a possibly dangerous person, unless the safety of a loved one was at risk, that being the case, it would likely be with firearm drawn low and ready.

.
.

Misty02
03-30-2012, 10:27
It would make no sense to me. If you feel the need to draw your weapon you must be concerned about a potential immediate attack.

You are not a police officer, so withdrawal from situation. Maybe having firearm ready as you withdrew could be justified however.

Frankly, this whole neighborhood watch thing is making less and less sense to me. Sure if you see something report it, but don't go following people or going on patrol.


Lucky you! It has never made any sense to me at all.

.

ModGlock17
03-30-2012, 10:28
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.

Consult the law where you are.

This is Florida (land of "flowers") Statue:

-----
Title XLVI (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVI#TitleXLVI)
CRIMESChapter 776 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html)
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCEView Entire Chapter (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html)776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=776.013&URL=0900-0999/0943/Sections/0943.10.html)(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.



----

ModGlock17
03-30-2012, 10:40
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?

In a CCW class, we talked about a gas station case (not your biz or property) when a hold up is occuring and you see it from the outside, BG (s) pointing gun(s) at clerks. Do you, at that point, use your 10mm hollowpoint to address the situation and still be protected by the FL law ? They said, "Yes".

Or do you sit in the car and wait for LE, watching and watching ? Very expedient but should the clerk expires leaving kids then will you sleep well ?

The law covers some parts and morality covers some parts. Then simple expediency provides a different guide.

ModGlock17
03-30-2012, 11:34
This is the FL Statue that protects Zimmer:

Title XLVI (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVI#TitleXLVI)
CRIMESChapter 776 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html)
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCEView Entire Chapter (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html)776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html).

Roger1079
03-30-2012, 12:19
In my uneducated opinion, it could be deadly to develop hard rules where self-defense is concerned that don’t allow adjustment to the actual situation being faced. Yes, there are certain lines I have no intentions of ever crossing but the rest of my physical, mental and emotional training needs to allow flexibility to address specifics unknown to me now.

For the sake of argument assume I’m the one being followed. I’ve made some turns, I’ve hidden, there is little doubt that an unknown person with unknown intentions is after me. I would not hesitate to make a run for my car or other cover/concealment place with my firearm drawn and ready to address being confronted at that point.

There could be times when your firearm may need to leave its holster and not a shot be fired. I do agree that if you draw it, it is not to be for intimidation, if necessary the shot is to be fired.

.My uneducated opinion is that the person following me will never know I have a concealed firearm unless I have to draw it because I feel my life is in immediate danger. My hand would be near it in a ready position should the need arise, but the pistol would not be drawn. The only scenario where my CCW would ever be drawn and no shots fired is if the action of my assailant seeing me draw my weapon diffused the situation and I no longer felt there was a threat. As in, he either retreats or hits the floor and stops advancing.

Spiffums
03-30-2012, 12:43
And Zimmerman would have to be an absolute (not partial as we kind of already know he is) moron, to have pulled his gun (thinking it would scare Martin, a common misconception among people who haven't been in deadly force encounters), then been attacked by Martin in self-defense when he saw it, and then shooting Martin, and then admitting it happened that way to the police.

The bigger moron would be the one attacking someone with a gun out with just his hands.

Warp
03-30-2012, 13:09
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?

In a CCW class, we talked about a gas station case (not your biz or property) when a hold up is occuring and you see it from the outside, BG (s) pointing gun(s) at clerks. Do you, at that point, use your 10mm hollowpoint to address the situation and still be protected by the FL law ? They said, "Yes".

Or do you sit in the car and wait for LE, watching and watching ? Very expedient but should the clerk expires leaving kids then will you sleep well ?

The law covers some parts and morality covers some parts. Then simple expediency provides a different guide.

Where was Zimmerman, precisely?

ATW525
03-30-2012, 13:21
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?


Whose property do you think he was on? Usually the grounds of these types of places are designated as common areas and maintained by the homeowners' association. As a resident of the community, he'd generally have a right to be there as long as he was in compliance with any rules set forth by the association.

series1811
03-30-2012, 13:23
The bigger moron would be the one attacking someone with a gun out with just his hands.

So, if someone pulls a gun on you, and you don't have a weapon, and you think he is going to shoot you, what is your plan? To just die?

Bren
03-30-2012, 13:28
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?

In a CCW class, we talked about a gas station case (not your biz or property) when a hold up is occuring and you see it from the outside, BG (s) pointing gun(s) at clerks. Do you, at that point, use your 10mm hollowpoint to address the situation and still be protected by the FL law ? They said, "Yes".

Or do you sit in the car and wait for LE, watching and watching ? Very expedient but should the clerk expires leaving kids then will you sleep well ?

The law covers some parts and morality covers some parts. Then simple expediency provides a different guide.

Not sure at what point this came up, but under the facts as they have been stated in the press, the "duty to retreat" and "stand your ground" are irrelevant. You never had a "duty to retreat" if you couldn't do so, safely, and the only version of this story on record says Martin knocked Zimmerman down and jumped on him. "Stand your ground" is not a factor.

The evidence suggests they were both on a public sidewalk (hence, Zimmerman's head being beaten against it).

Bren
03-30-2012, 13:33
Whose property do you think he was on? Usually the grounds of these types of places are designated as common areas and maintained by the homeowners' association. As a resident of the community, he'd generally have a right to be there as long as he was in compliance with any rules set forth by the association.

I'll add that, under Florida law, it is not a trespass to just be on someone else's private property (unless it is land used for growing crops, like orange groves). They could both have been walking through the private yard of a house and it would not have been a crime.

810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.09.html).—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or
2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass,

commits the offense of trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance.

Roger1079
03-30-2012, 13:52
So, if someone pulls a gun on you, and you don't have a weapon, and you think he is going to shoot you, what is your plan? To just die?I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GAURANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 14:36
I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GUARANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.

Bingo! As far as I'm concerned this remark is spot-on. That's one of the things that's been bothering me, most, about this incident. I'd, also, like to know whether or not evidence of narcotics use was found in Martin's blood?



ADDED: The alternative is, of course, that Zimmerman did NOT reveal the pistol until some point after his head was being smacked into the ground. The only thing I do not doubt is that Zimmerman WAS getting the worst of this engagement until he fired that shot.

Peace Warrior
03-30-2012, 14:44
... I'd, also, like to know whether or not evidence of narcotics use was found in Martin's blood? ...
Me too, and add Z's as well.

High Altitude
03-30-2012, 14:46
http://news.yahoo.com/spike-lee-settles-retweeting-wrong-address-202747871.html

series1811
03-30-2012, 15:11
I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GAURANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.

Who is providing you with this information on what is a possible risk and what is guaranteed, when facing someone with a gun who you believe intends to shoot you?

TBO
03-30-2012, 15:34
Rush to judgment in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

:faint:

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 15:37
Who is providing you with this information on what is a possible risk and what is guaranteed, when facing someone with a gun who you believe intends to shoot you?

It's common sense! Besides, on reflection, Roger1079's comment is right in line with your own signature line:

'A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.' - Proverbs 22:3

From what I've been reading, so far it really does look like Martin ran towards, rather than away from, Zimmerman.

High Altitude
03-30-2012, 15:46
rush to judgment in trayvon martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

:faint:

the leading cause of death for black male teenagers is homicide, according to the national center for health statistics. Of all the black homicide victims, about 93% are killed by other black people. In 2011, nearly 85% of all people murdered in philadelphia were black. Where are the marches and protests for these victims? Is it justice people seek or are they looking and even hoping for signs of white racism so they can exploit it?

bingo!

Misty02
03-30-2012, 15:50
I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GAURANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.

It is impossible to determine as of now what would work in a future situation and what will not. As difficult as it may be at the time, you have to play it by ear based on all the data your senses are receiving from all sources (the location you’re in, the person that is threatening you, who else is present, etc). Running away may in fact be the best possible move that yields the highest possibility of success; the same will be true of fighting your way out; each will be directly tied to the situation faced (not to what you think you’ll do as of today).

.

ModGlock17
03-30-2012, 16:02
Whose property do you think he was on? Usually the grounds of these types of places are designated as common areas and maintained by the homeowners' association. As a resident of the community, he'd generally have a right to be there as long as he was in compliance with any rules set forth by the association.

I do not have the facts of this case.

My research shows this community has about 42 buildings, each generally comprised of 6 separately owned units to a building format. Each owned unit is two floors and owner of generally a 25'x65' piece of land, if you can picture that. It's about 1,600sqft. Unit footprints are about 600sqft, which leaves 1,000sqft of grass and driveways. So there's about 260,000sqft or 6 acres of land owned that is not occupied by buildings and separate from roadways. They have a large pond and a clubhouse with large grassy area, typically seen in FL subdivisions.

Definitely high density, and lower priced real estates.

As a matter of probability, I think it is likely to be on someone's yard and Martin could have weaved in-out between the buildings.

Again, I think what covers Zimmer is this FL Statue:
Title XLVI (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVI#TitleXLVI)
CRIMESChapter 776 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html)
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCEView Entire Chapter (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html)776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html).

Whether he originally pursue Martin is irrelevant at that point. The law allows him to defend himself. The truth is that his life will change forever, which is true whenever you pull the trigger on someone, justifiable or not.

----
Al Sharpie now threatens civil disobedience. LOL

If Obama is looking for a reason to unite dark people, he's getting close.
And I thought he was to unite ALL Americans. LOL

But my hope is that more people will see his true face !

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 16:11
It is impossible to determine as of now what would work in a future situation and what will not. As difficult as it may be at the time, you have to play it by ear based on all the data your senses are receiving from all sources (the location you’re in, the person that is threatening you, who else is present, etc).

True! Hence the wisdom of Proverbs 22:3 When confronted by the unknown, withdrawl is always the best option. I wasn't there; I don't know for certain; but, I have begun to strongly suspect that Martin had quite a temper; and, whatever else happened that night, he decide to follow it.

Running away may in fact be the best possible move that yields the highest possibility of success; the same will be true of fighting your way out; each will be directly tied to the situation faced (not to what you think you’ll do as of today).

No! 'Fighting your way out' always involves definite and immediate risks that have little or no part in straightforwardly running away. I think the assumption more than safe that IF Martin had, in fact, run away that night then Zimmerman would NOT have shot him in the back. Hence, on the evidence at hand, Martin was an active (and culpable) contributor to his own death.

ModGlock17
03-30-2012, 16:33
I think the assumption more than safe that IF Martin had, in fact, run away that night then Zimmerman would NOT have shot him in the back. Hence, on the evidence at hand, Martin was an active (and culpable) contributor to his own death.

I agree.

Once Martin was on top beating a smaller man on the bottom (if true), at that point, he lost the protection of the law and the law came on Zimmer's side.

Misty02
03-30-2012, 16:37
True! Hence the wisdom of Proverbs 22:3 When confronted by the unknown, withdrawl is always the best option. I wasn't there; I don't know for certain; but, I have begun to strongly suspect that Martin had quite a temper; and, whatever else happened that night, he decide to follow it.



No! 'Fighting your way out' always involves definite and immediate risks that have little or no part in straightforwardly running away. I think the assumption more than safe that IF Martin had, in fact, run away that night then Zimmerman would NOT have shot him in the back. Hence, on the evidence at hand, Martin was an active (and culpable) contributor to his own death.


You are talking about this particular case; the comment I responded to was talking in general terms, thus you’re responding to my comments out of context.

I will always select retreat as my first option; to think that option will be available always is unreasonable. To develop a mindset that at the sight of an aimed firearm you program yourself to run could leave you (and your loved ones) as dead as if you had just stood there, when the better option would have been to run.

.

SpringerTGO
03-30-2012, 17:27
I think a lot of what determines whether to fight or retreat depends on the distance to the attacker, and whether you have the physical ability to overcome the attacker, should you be able to close the range.

If someone was up close to me, and telling me to get on my knees, I'd fight.
I can see where a small woman might only consider running, especially against a large man with a weapon.

Misty..... I don't see any scenarios for a civilian on a public street, to have a weapon drawn in the ready position, because of a suspicious sighting. I can see having a hand on my weapon while it is holstered, but that's about it.

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 17:34
You are talking about this particular case; the comment I responded to was talking in general terms, thus you’re responding to my comments out of context.

Oh, no I wasn't. That's the way you read my reply. My opening remarks were strictly generalized. It's only towards the end of the paragraph that I, 'switched gears' and became subjective.

...... to think that option will be available always is unreasonable. To develop a mindset that at the sight of an aimed firearm you program yourself to run could leave you (and your loved ones) as dead as if you had just stood there, when the better option would have been to run.

Misty, you need to stop emoting and actually read and think about what I said. Trust me on this: What you think I said, and what I actually said are NOT the same thing. OK!

opto_isolator
03-30-2012, 17:37
Rush to judgment in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

:faint:

Its nice to see a voice of reason in the media, rather than the lambasting of the guy before all of the facts are known. Of course, folks such as sharpton an jackson will look the other way, claiming bias, etc....

series1811
03-30-2012, 17:49
It's common sense! .

I guess I'll have to go back for retraining.

dpadams6
03-30-2012, 17:52
Arrest the victim? The suspect was killed

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 17:57
I guess I'll have to go back for retraining.

I don't know; but it IS your sig line. :dunno:

Misty02
03-30-2012, 18:48
Oh, no I wasn't. That's the way you read my reply. My opening remarks were strictly generalized. It's only towards the end of the paragraph that I, 'switched gears' and became subjective.



Misty, you need to stop emoting and actually read and think about what I said. Trust me on this: What you think I said, and what I actually said are NOT the same thing. OK!

This is the conversation in question. If what I understood and what you said are not the same thing, then I may need some help seeing the difference.

So, if someone pulls a gun on you, and you don't have a weapon, and you think he is going to shoot you, what is your plan? To just die?
I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GAURANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.
It is impossible to determine as of now what would work in a future situation and what will not. As difficult as it may be at the time, you have to play it by ear based on all the data your senses are receiving from all sources (the location you’re in, the person that is threatening you, who else is present, etc). Running away may in fact be the best possible move that yields the highest possibility of success; the same will be true of fighting your way out; each will be directly tied to the situation faced (not to what you think you’ll do as of today).
True! Hence the wisdom of Proverbs 22:3 When confronted by the unknown, withdrawl is always the best option. I wasn't there; I don't know for certain; but, I have begun to strongly suspect that Martin had quite a temper; and, whatever else happened that night, he decide to follow it.



No! 'Fighting your way out' always involves definite and immediate risks that have little or no part in straightforwardly running away. I think the assumption more than safe that IF Martin had, in fact, run away that night then Zimmerman would NOT have shot him in the back. Hence, on the evidence at hand, Martin was an active (and culpable) contributor to his own death.
You are talking about this particular case; the comment I responded to was talking in general terms, thus you’re responding to my comments out of context.

I will always select retreat as my first option; to think that option will be available always is unreasonable. To develop a mindset that at the sight of an aimed firearm you program yourself to run could leave you (and your loved ones) as dead as if you had just stood there, when the better option would have been to run.






ETA: I didn't experess the blue part correctly, what I meant was that there would be times where running away is the best option and others where fighting your way out would be the best option. Select the wrong one and you're just as dead. You have to pay attention (not be set in just one way) to know which would be appropriate.

Arc Angel
03-30-2012, 18:56
This is the conversation in question. If what I understood and what you said are not the same thing, then I may need some help seeing the difference.

:shocked: Nevermind!

(If I weren't such a devious and complex person, I'd try to explain it all to ya; but, let's be perfectly honest: THAT would take all the fun out of things - Wouldn't it!) ;)

bear62
03-30-2012, 19:16
Rush to judgment in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

:faint:

Read it twice....... all I can say is WOW ..... I hope everyone will take the time to read this article....... Thanks for posting...:wavey:

Fred Hansen
03-30-2012, 19:44
Read it twice....... all I can say is WOW ..... I hope everyone will take the time to read this article....... Thanks for posting...:wavey:I'm curious to know what part(s) are "WOW" for you?

Misty02
03-30-2012, 20:02
:shocked: Nevermind!

(If I weren't such a devious and complex person, I'd try to explain it all to ya; but, let's be perfectly honest: THAT would take all the fun out of things - Wouldn't it!) ;)

If you say so. :wavey:

bear62
03-30-2012, 20:14
I'm curious to know what part(s) are "WOW" for you?

Mostly every part, Fred ............:wavey:

Fred Hansen
03-30-2012, 21:50
Mostly every part, Fred ............:wavey:try this one then: NBC News Accused of Editing 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Controversy (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1411984)

ballr4lyf
03-30-2012, 21:55
Rush to judgment in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

:faint:

This falls into the "No *****, Sherlock!" category. Unfortunately, I believe it is too little, too late. The fuse has been lit, and the mob is out for blood.

vkscott
03-30-2012, 22:44
Not sure if this was posted from a 2-day old article.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense?ocid=twitter

Reading the article it states that when the lead investigator interviewed the 13 year old witness, 8 days after the shooting, the LI tried to coax the boy about the race of the person on bottom. The boy stood firm saying he couldn't tell because it was too dark. The article went on to say that the LI told the boy's mother that he didn't believe it eas SD and that he needed to prove it.

What I have to say about that, didn't we already know this from the beginning? Wasn't it the LI that told the DA that he didnt believe Zimmerman and wanted to arrest him that night? If that is accurate (at least from what the media reported) what weight does this article have? I think it has no weight.

Sorry if this has been discussed. I'm tired and don't want to play catchup :faint:

Tiro Fijo
03-30-2012, 22:54
...Unfortunately, I believe it is too little, too late. The fuse has been lit, and the mob is out for blood.


All it would take would be few famous & respected Black celebrities to quell this but many remember what happened to Bill Cosby after his "tennis shoes" speech. :upeyes:

vkscott
03-30-2012, 23:15
This is the type of fuel that feeds the black community. I wonder if Zimmerman is not charged, will there be a retraction? I highly doubt it.

http://brotherpeacemaker.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/if-george-zimmerman-was-black/

Warp
03-30-2012, 23:34
I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GAURANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.

Yes. Even if you have a gun shooting back/shooting your attacker is generally not the top priority.

Not getting shot is the top priority.

Warp
03-30-2012, 23:40
Rush to judgment in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

:faint:

That's a helluva article. And from CNN!

Good link.

HKLovingIT
03-30-2012, 23:44
This is interesting. Perhaps people, or at least some, are calming down just a notch. Which, is good.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Civil-rights-leaders-condemn-Sharpton-s-call-for-escalated-civil-disobedience/-/1637132/9863196/-/owq31pz/-/index.html

HKLovingIT
03-30-2012, 23:46
Then again, just when I had some hope for humanity.

Wow, this is just...yeah...read it...

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/30/strip-club-cancels-party-in-honor-of-trayvon-martin/

TBO
03-31-2012, 00:12
Photos shape opinions of Trayvon Martin case

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/11629677-418/photos-shape-opinions-of-trayvon-martin-case.html

TBO
03-31-2012, 00:21
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120328030503-ac-kth-trayvon-martin-photos-00004308-story-top.jpg

vkscott
03-31-2012, 06:16
Just saw this (http://http://www.npr.org/2012/03/31/149685179/in-trayvon-martin-case-attorney-also-scrutinized). Seems like everything is under scrutiny.

Arc Angel
03-31-2012, 06:21
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/opinion/bennett-trayvon-martin/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

The leading cause of death for black male teenagers is homicide, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Of all the black homicide victims, about 93% are killed by other black people. In 2011, nearly 85% of all people murdered in Philadelphia were black. Where are the marches and protests for these victims? Is it justice people seek or are they looking and even hoping for signs of white racism so they can exploit it?

You know living some 50 miles outside of Philadelphia, somehow, I knew this; it's just that with all of the national news media furor over the past 3 weeks, this otherwise obvious reality has seemed to almost disappear.

My personal opinion, though, is a little bit different than that of author Bennett's. After listening to my favorite quintessential, 'snake oil salesman', Chuck Schumer, on TV the other night, I think what's really happening with this media-hyped rage and hysteria over the Martin shooting incident is just one more way the national news media is exploring in order to damn the rights of American citizens to keep and bear arms - I really do!

Pretty damned slick - Ain't it! Oh, and I still want to know what Martin's toxicology report shows? (The silence is almost deafening!)

Roger1079
03-31-2012, 06:22
Who is providing you with this information on what is a possible risk and what is guaranteed, when facing someone with a gun who you believe intends to shoot you?

It is impossible to determine as of now what would work in a future situation and what will not. As difficult as it may be at the time, you have to play it by ear based on all the data your senses are receiving from all sources (the location you’re in, the person that is threatening you, who else is present, etc). Running away may in fact be the best possible move that yields the highest possibility of success; the same will be true of fighting your way out; each will be directly tied to the situation faced (not to what you think you’ll do as of today).

.

Common sense would be my guide in that situation. In my eyes, location, race, religion, type of clothing worn, and any other variable you can throw in there is meaningless. The only situation where any variables other than the gun come into play for me is if it is a LEO pointing a gun at me. In that situation, I know that unless I make a really bad decision, I will likely not be shot. If ANYONE else pulls a gun on me, especially a citizen with a CCW, I am going to believe my life is in danger and that their intention is to shoot me regardless of any other circumstances. I would believe that to be true simply because with a FL CCW, nobody should ever know you have it unless they are looking down the muzzle. If they are in that situation, it should only be because the person that pulled it intends to shoot.

If I happen to be armed, common sense may tell me my best option is to stand my ground and try to defend myself while running the risk of being shot. However, if I am not armed which is the case here, common sense would tell me I am in a dangerous/potentially deadly situation where the other person UNQUESTIONABLY has the upper hand by a HUGE margin.

That being said, with my belief that anyone pointing a gun at me intends to harm me, common sense is going to tell me that my best chance at survival is to retreat and hope that my behavior is sufficient enough to avoid me being shot rather than bringing fists to a gunfight and making the chance of me being shot just about certain. I don't gamble, but i do know a 50/50 shot is better than nearly 100% certainty.

Odds are if Treyvon was retreating, Zimmerman would NOT have put a bullet in his back. That of course is my opinion but common sense also tells me that is likely a true statement.

Roger1079
03-31-2012, 06:36
This is the conversation in question. If what I understood and what you said are not the same thing, then I may need some help seeing the difference.



ETA: I didn't experess the blue part correctly, what I meant was that there would be times where running away is the best option and others where fighting your way out would be the best option. Select the wrong one and you're just as dead. You have to pay attention (not be set in just one way) to know which would be appropriate.Well of course there are scenarios where attempting to fight back is the best/only option. However for me at least, these situations would only be if my family/loved ones were with me and the odds of everyone escaping unharmed was slim or if I was backed into a corner with no possible way to retreat. Neither of these are the situation in this particular case. All accounts say Treyvon was alone and near the sidewalk in a residential community. Running and hiding would have definitely been the smarter option for preservation of his own life IF what we have heard to this point is true.

Arc Angel
03-31-2012, 06:55
Common sense would be my guide in that situation. In my eyes, location, race, religion, type of clothing worn, and any other variable you can throw in there is meaningless. THe only situation where anythings comes into play for me is if it is a LEO pointing a gun at me. In that situation, I know that unless I make a really bad decision, I will likely not be shot. If ANYONE else pulls a gun on me, especially a citizen with a CCW, I am going to believe my life is in danger and that their intention is to shoot me regardless of any other circumstances.

If I happen to be armed, common sense may tell me my best option is to stand my ground and try to defend myself while running the risk of being shot. However, if I am not armed which is the case here, common sense would tell me I am in a dangerous/potentially deadly situation where the other person UNQUESTIONABLY has the upper hand by a HUGE margin.

That being said, with my belief that anyone pointing a gun at me intends to harm me, common sense is going to tell me that my best chance at survival is to retreat and hope that my behavior is sufficient enough to avoid me being shot rather than bringing fists to a gunfight and making the chance of me being shot just about certain. I don't gamble, but i do know a 50/50 shot is better than nearly 100% certainty.

Odds are if Treyvon was retreating, Zimmerman would NOT have put a bullet in his back. That of course is my opinion but common sense also tells me that is likely a true statement.

Yes, and yes again on all counts!

If you're looking at a gun barrel (or someone with his hand on a gun) the, 'fight or flight decision' has already been made for you. On the other hand if time and distance are on your side I'm going to go with the Bible's advice:

'A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.' - Proverbs 22:3

Recent eyewitness testimony indicates that Martin did NOT try to run away from Zimmerman. He ran AT HIM instead. I am further convinced that Martin did NOT know that Zimmerman was armed until after he had Zimmerman down and was pummeling him about the head.

Contrary to what the national news media has been portraying, the Martin shooting is NOT a, 'black and white' racial incident. It is, instead, a straightforward case of interpersonal aggression and corresponding self-defense.

Misty02
03-31-2012, 09:56
Well of course there are scenarios where attempting to fight back is the best/only option. However for me at least, these situations would only be if my family/loved ones were with me and the odds of everyone escaping unharmed was slim or if I was backed into a corner with no possible way to retreat. Neither of these are the situation in this particular case. All accounts say Treyvon was alone and near the sidewalk in a residential community. Running and hiding would have definitely been the smarter option for preservation of his own life IF what we have heard to this point is true.

No argument here, I agree. :)

Misty02
03-31-2012, 09:58
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359

NBC News Accused of Editing 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Controversy (Video)


Interesting video at the bottom of the article.

.

Warp
03-31-2012, 10:23
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359

NBC News Accused of Editing 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Controversy (Video)


Interesting video at the bottom of the article.

.


What is wrong with people?

Did they really think nobody would get on them about this?

Are they really this freaking concerned with creating racial tension???