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Wake_jumper
03-31-2012, 11:01
Boycott every company that advertises on NBC. Let's shut them down.

pipedreams
03-31-2012, 11:12
My personal opinion, though, is a little bit different than that of author Bennett's. After listening to my favorite quintessential, 'snake oil salesman', Chuck Schumer, on TV the other night, I think what's really happening with this media-hyped rage and hysteria over the Martin shooting incident is just one more way the national news media is exploring in order to damn the rights of American citizens to keep and bear arms - I really do!
You may be right about that. They will keep beating the drum since Fast & Furious is on the ropes.

Misty02
03-31-2012, 12:03
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/30/Flashback-Al-Sharpton-Explains-How-To-Manipulate-Media

Flashback: Al Sharpton Explains How To Manipulate Media

(not that I'm willing to give him all the credit either)

.

jack76590
03-31-2012, 15:08
What is wrong with people?

Did they really think nobody would get on them about this?

Are they really this freaking concerned with creating racial tension???

I am only stating what you already know, when I say the media would like riots to cover.

ModGlock17
03-31-2012, 15:33
I am only stating what you already know, when I say the media would like riots to cover.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't remember a race riot under GWB's 8 years. Media has been the same? Please correct me if I am wrong.

When was Rodney King's ? 1992 ? Clinton's ?

Do you see a pattern? Dems Prez tenure = riots

Roger1079
03-31-2012, 17:25
I am only stating what you already know, when I say the media would like riots to cover.I doubt the media is purposely trying to insight a riot. They are just spinning the story to make it sound like much more than it really is. It wouldn't be the news if they just reported the facts without embellishing.

Bren
04-01-2012, 05:50
I doubt the media is purposely trying to insight a riot. They are just spinning the story to make it sound like much more than it really is. It wouldn't be the news if they just reported the facts without embellishing.

You trust the media more than me.

rhikdavis
04-01-2012, 05:55
I am only stating what you already know, when I say the media would like riots to cover.

I hope the journalists 'embedded' with the rioters are the first to go down.

Peace Warrior
04-01-2012, 06:37
I am only stating what you already know, when I say the media would like riots to cover.
Years ago I was trying to break into journalism. I was turning in, what I thought, to be some great written pieces, but nothing was getting published. When I personally confronted the one responsible for "killing" my work, he said, "I just can't use what you're doing, listen, if it bleeds, it leads," and then he walked away.

I promise the all the mass media's outlets would love to be able to cover race riots in Florida or around the country stemming from the M & Z event. They'd sell it to their advertisers at a premium!

Flintlocker
04-01-2012, 06:43
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/30/Flashback-Al-Sharpton-Explains-How-To-Manipulate-Media

Flashback: Al Sharpton Explains How To Manipulate Media

(not that I'm willing to give him all the credit either)

.

It's reasonable to see you shed that previous impartiality when you've acquired enough of a manufactured counter argument. Preach the controversy!

4Rules
04-01-2012, 09:31
Obama Is Trying To Start A Race War: Exploiting Trayvon's Death
Obama Is Trying To Start A Race War: Exploiting Trayvon's Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMBs1NlqOf0)

Uploaded by TheAlexJonesChannel (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAlexJonesChannel) on Mar 31, 2012


There can no longer be any doubt, the social engineers are trying to spark civil unrest as a distraction from the criminal looting the Banksters are carrying out. Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book, stir the people up against one another then pose as the savior that keeps the peace!

KMBs1NlqOf0
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMBs1NlqOf0>

Moderator Note: Folks, I think this topic belongs in Political Issues, not here. Please discuss it there.

Thanks,

RussP

steveksux
04-01-2012, 11:47
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/30/Flashback-Al-Sharpton-Explains-How-To-Manipulate-Media

Flashback: Al Sharpton Explains How To Manipulate Media

(not that I'm willing to give him all the credit either)

.There's nothing wrong with bringing the media spotlight onto a situation that needs exposing. Its a good thing to have the ability to do that. Having said that, the Spider-man Doctrine applies here. "With great power comes great responsibility".

Just like guns. The problem isn't the guns, or the media manipulation. Its the people and what they use the guns/media to do.

Randy

Misty02
04-01-2012, 12:09
There's nothing wrong with bringing the media spotlight onto a situation that needs exposing. Its a good thing to have the ability to do that. Having said that, the Spider-man Doctrine applies here. "With great power comes great responsibility".

Just like guns. The problem isn't the guns, or the media manipulation. Its the people and what they use the guns/media to do.

Randy

I see nothing wrong with bringing media attention and not backing off when there is an injustice, a right is being violated or at an attempt to sweep something under the rug. When it is done maliciously to pin people against one another for personal gain (whether it be for money, publicity, power, etc.) it is despicable. I may be wrong (I can’t read Zimmerman’s mind) but I don’t believe this tragic incident had the racial undertones others are attempting to give it. I still believe it was a preventable tragic incident, but that doesn’t make it something else.

Good people die every day because someone else made a terrible mistake. Others because another intended harm toward them. I believe this one falls in the prior category.

In other words, we’re in agreement. :)


.

Tiro Fijo
04-01-2012, 12:53
A change in things:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/01/voice-heard-screaming-on-11-tape-is-not-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman/

TBO
04-01-2012, 13:05
FWIW: I do not see a "change", just yet another "opinion".

SpringerTGO
04-01-2012, 13:16
I see nothing wrong with bringing media attention and not backing off when there is an injustice, a right is being violated or at an attempt to sweep something under the rug. When it is done maliciously to pin people against one another for personal gain (whether it be for money, publicity, power, etc.) it is despicable. I may be wrong (I can’t read Zimmerman’s mind) but I don’t believe this tragic incident had the racial undertones others are attempting to give it. I still believe it was a preventable tragic incident, but that doesn’t make it something else.

Good people die every day because someone else made a terrible mistake. Others because another intended harm toward them. I believe this one falls in the prior category.

In other words, we’re in agreement. :)


.

I have no idea whether the shooting was right or wrong, and I hope that Zimmerman gets a fair trial, if it goes to trial.

That said, if it was my teenage son who was killed, I would want answers. The Sanford police weren't responsive enough to the parent's media's questions, and because of that they fueled the media frenzy.
I think it sucks that Zimmerman is getting tried in the court of public opinion, and that a lot of this might have been avoided had the Sanford police been forthright with the information they have.
If it turns out they didn't do their job, it would have been better to figure that out right away, rather than through Grand Jury (and other) investigations. If they did do their job, they should have provided the facts much sooner.

TBO
04-01-2012, 13:29
I have no idea whether the shooting was right or wrong, and I hope that Zimmerman gets a fair trial, if it goes to trial.

That said, if it was my teenage son who was killed, I would want answers. The Sanford police weren't responsive enough to the parent's media's questions, and because of that they fueled the media frenzy.
I think it sucks that Zimmerman is getting tried in the court of public opinion, and that a lot of this might have been avoided had the Sanford police been forthright with the information they have.
If it turns out they didn't do their job, it would have been better to figure that out right away, rather than through Grand Jury (and other) investigations. If they did do their job, they should have provided the facts much sooner.
What is your answer to this?

FireForged
04-01-2012, 13:39
If you are a lawfully armed citizen, you bring a gun into any situation you are involved in. No matter if you are right, wrong or sideways...you bring a gun into it. No matter if no-one even realizes that you are armed... you bring a gun into it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as you consider the potiential for violence prior to jumping head long into something. I pass no guilt or innocent judgement on Mr Zimmerman but if (being armed) you want to chase a "suspicious" teen through the neighborhood- you have to consider "is it worth it" "is it prudent" when they may at any moment- decide to stop running. I am not against being armed or against community watches but I am against putting yourself (the armed citizen) into a possibly violent conflict over something that is not urgent.

DocCasualty
04-01-2012, 13:41
The Sanford police weren't responsive enough to the parent's media's questions, and because of that they fueled the media frenzy.

How could they be with an ongoing investigation? Seems to me some of these things are inherent to the system and people need to let it play out. I'm sure that's a tough thing to do, but screaming "foul" before anything has been determined doesn't help anybody.

Bren
04-01-2012, 13:43
I pass no guilt or innocent judgement on Mr Zimmerman but if (being armed) you want to chase a "suspicious" teen through the neighborhood- you have to consider "is it worth it" when they decide to stop running.

Like many posters, you have misstated the facts - undisputed facts - of what is alleged to have happened. There is no version of this story claiming anybody ran or was chased, only that Zimmerman followed or walked toward Martin.

SpringerTGO
04-01-2012, 13:56
How could they be with an ongoing investigation? Seems to me some of these things are inherent to the system and people need to let it play out. I'm sure that's a tough thing to do, but screaming "foul" before anything has been determined doesn't help anybody.

They were slow and unresponsive enough to get the Chief a vote of no confidence.
Again, this has nothing to do with whether it was a good shoot.
But if it was your child, and no arrest was made, how long would you be willing to wait to get the facts?

Bren
04-01-2012, 14:02
They were slow and unresponsive enough to get the Chief a vote of no confidence.
Again, this has nothing to do with whether it was a good shoot.
But if it was your child, and no arrest was made, how long would you be willing to wait to get the facts?

They've given out as many facts as the police will in any shooting - probably more. Some of you have some pretty strange ideas about how these things work. Had this been a Kentucky shooting, the press might have gotten a 2 paragraph official statement from the police - everything else they'd have to get in court appearances.

TBO
04-01-2012, 14:06
http://i44.tinypic.com/5jtwer.jpg

DocCasualty
04-01-2012, 14:10
They've given out as many facts as the police will in any shooting - probably more. Some of you have some pretty strange ideas about how these things work. Had this been a Kentucky shooting, the press might have gotten a 2 paragraph official statement from the police - everything else they'd have to get in court appearances.
^^^^^^^ This. Thanks, Bren.

steveksux
04-01-2012, 14:11
What is your answer to this?I would think the whole problem in the TM/GZ case is LACK of reliable information... The problem is there aren't any obvious easy answers to give anybody, family or the public.

Its not like the police are hiding the smoking gun, covering up for a guy that was arrested for fighting the police a while back. Yeah, that's the kind of guy the police are going to try to cover up a murder on his behalf... :rofl: NOT!

Plus there's the problem of releasing too much information and compromising the investigation.

IMO Sanford PD were caught between a rock and a hard place in this instance.

Randy

Warp
04-01-2012, 14:16
IMO Sanford PD were caught between a rock and a hard place in this instance.

Randy

IMO it was only because the media decided they didn't have a big enough story going to grab people's attention so they drummed one up.

steveksux
04-01-2012, 14:23
IMO it was only because the media decided they didn't have a big enough story going to grab people's attention so they drummed one up.I disagree, media isn't interested in the truth, or facts, only selling ad space, and the situation perfectly fit an outline guaranteed to grab headlines and generate outrage.

They had all the sketchy/misinformation they needed to run with it, didn't have to drum anything up...

We might actually be pretty much in agreement, barring semantic differences on second thought.... :supergrin:

Randy

Bilbo Bagins
04-01-2012, 15:20
try this one then: NBC News Accused of Editing 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Controversy (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1411984)


I think between that, and the blatant misuse of the photos of Zimmerman and Martin, I say Zimmerman can sue for some serious cash.

Fred Hansen
04-01-2012, 15:52
I think between that, and the blatant misuse of the photos of Zimmerman and Martin, I say Zimmerman can sue for some serious cash.I'm still shocked that Wise Latino Democrats for Truth and Justice haven't come forward with the offer of a defense fund for Mr. Zimmerman. A gun owner's association in Texas certainly did.

Misty02
04-01-2012, 16:37
I have no idea whether the shooting was right or wrong, and I hope that Zimmerman gets a fair trial, if it goes to trial.

That said, if it was my teenage son who was killed, I would want answers. The Sanford police weren't responsive enough to the parent's media's questions, and because of that they fueled the media frenzy.
I think it sucks that Zimmerman is getting tried in the court of public opinion, and that a lot of this might have been avoided had the Sanford police been forthright with the information they have.
If it turns out they didn't do their job, it would have been better to figure that out right away, rather than through Grand Jury (and other) investigations. If they did do their job, they should have provided the facts much sooner.

Why would the police provide answers to the media or even the parents on an ongoing investigation where all the answers are not yet known? Today’s society believes they are entitled to everything and instantly at that.

As a parent, in this case, I would offer my assistance. I would ask what I can do, maybe TV appeals for anyone with information to come forward. I wouldn’t want their investigation rushed, quite the contrary, I want them to do the job properly so that everything they come across sticks and doesn’t become inadmissible if it gets to a jury trial. You must be clear what your goal is on things like this and help in a way that supports your ultimate goal.

On an ongoing investigation I wouldn’t want them releasing any facts until the moment where it would have the most impact, in a court of law. The people’s and media’s need to know wouldn’t fall anywhere in my list of important things.

Which would be your goal if you’re the parent, to have the public (people you don’t know and don’t give a hoot about) informed or have a proper investigation and a trial with evidence the public/media hasn’t tainted and poked holes in?

And if you are going to lie (by omission, half truths or flat out lies) to the public to get sympathy, expect that same public whose sympathy you gained to turn on you when they find out they were mislead.

.

Misty02
04-01-2012, 16:55
They were slow and unresponsive enough to get the Chief a vote of no confidence.
Again, this has nothing to do with whether it was a good shoot.
But if it was your child, and no arrest was made, how long would you be willing to wait to get the facts?

As long as necessary, befriend one of the detectives in the case so you remain informed. Be discrete with what you learn as you are being trusted with information you shouldn’t have. Ask for advice , find out what you can do, keep eyes and ears open, talk to people and see who knows but doesn’t want to get involved, don’t attempt to approach those people but provide the detective with leads. Basically, help in lieu of becoming an obstacle. There are many ways to help, most of us don’t know exactly how, that is where guidance from those inside handling the case becomes important. Keep in mind that is not the only case they’re handling, be considerate. If it takes 6 weeks or 6 months, stay in touch continue to ask questions and offering assistance.

Or you can push and accuse, close all lines of communication and be left out in the cold not knowing a thing (because they never had to tell you in the first place). You can always then turn to the community, create conditions that you cannot control, bring in people that would do things you don’t agree with and are despicable.

The choices available are many, which are the ones that support your goals? Would you even know what your ultimate goal is?

.

Misty02
04-01-2012, 17:00
I disagree, media isn't interested in the truth, or facts, only selling ad space, and the situation perfectly fit an outline guaranteed to grab headlines and generate outrage.

They had all the sketchy/misinformation they needed to run with it, didn't have to drum anything up...

We might actually be pretty much in agreement, barring semantic differences on second thought.... :supergrin:

Randy

There are articles that lead me to believe that the media has done more than just drum things up. Look at the video at the bottom of the story.

NBC News Accused of Editing 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Controversy (Video)
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359)


.

Arc Angel
04-01-2012, 17:02
They were slow and unresponsive enough to get the Chief a vote of no confidence. Again, this has nothing to do with whether it was a good shoot. But if it was your child, and no arrest was made, how long would you be willing to wait to get the facts?

You know, all of the negative publicity and media hype over the Martin shooting is a load of media-inspired social excrement that is presently inciting America's Black community to all sorts of - apparently socially acceptable, but nonetheless thoroughly illegal - public misbehaviors.

The White Sanford, Florida Police Chief, Bill Lee, simply isn't as lucky as Black Maryland Police Chief Charles Moose was when those two homicidal Blacks terrorized Maryland for THREE ENTIRE WEEKS back in October of 2002. (My own family was forced to cancel a planned vacation to the Prince Frederick area because of these murderous random attacks; and I'm still annoyed about the $150.00 in unrefunded deposits that we lost!)

White people were being shot down like, 'ducks in a shooting gallery'; even school children were threatened; but, NO GROUP OF WHITE PEOPLE assaulted any Black people in their homes, or publicly offered a million dollar bounty for the depraved souls of either John Allen (Muhammad) or Lee Boyd Malvo. How soon the public forgets! There were days when Black Chief Moose actually had tears-of-frustration in his eyes over law enforcement's inability to stop these killers; but absolutely NO WHITE GROUP called for his resignation - And, God bless him, in retrospect Chief Moose made plenty of mistakes!

So, at risk of having a bounty placed on my own head for speaking out against this racist (or, 'reverse racist') social insanity, how about Black people showing both the White and Hispanic communities the same patience and tolerance that other Americans have long shown to them - Even when there was sufficient provocation not to!



And, before somebody goes off, 'half-cocked' I've been married twice in my life - Both times by a Black minister. I am, also, the second White student at my college to have a Black roommate; and, unlike today, this was back in the 1960's when American students rarely did anything like this.

MtnBiker
04-01-2012, 18:01
Hindsight's always 20/20. I think all the players had a part in creating the current state.
1) The shooter should have backed off and not followed.
2) The shootee, very likely created the end-game situation. (It wasn't that long ago my son was 17. There's a lot of testosterone and not always good judgement at that age.)
3) Sanford PD could have handled it better, especially once the media circus began.
4) The media. (This case should be tried in court, not in emotional sound bites.)

The silver lining in this cloud?

I haven't been a registered voter in Sanford, Fl for almost 2 decades. I'm not worried about ending up on the jury. It won't be an easy one, for a lot of reasons.

Vancleave
04-01-2012, 19:22
"Why would anyone put ice tea in the pocket unless they needed their hands free." Are you suggesting that the young man put the candy and tea in his pocket to prepar for combat? By the way, which pocket or pockets were used, the hoodie or pants pockets or one of each? The young man had probably eaten and drank all that he cared for at the time and simply put the rest in his pocket. Personally, if I were confronted by an imposing figure, I would want the bottle in my hand.

KCCAD
04-01-2012, 20:59
Police surveillance video of Zimmerman may show head injury (http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/)

RussP
04-01-2012, 21:11
I have no idea whether the shooting was right or wrong, and I hope that Zimmerman gets a fair trial, if it goes to trial.

That said, if it was my teenage son who was killed, I would want answers. The Sanford police weren't responsive enough to the parent's media's questions, and because of that they fueled the media frenzy.
I think it sucks that Zimmerman is getting tried in the court of public opinion, and that a lot of this might have been avoided had the Sanford police been forthright with the information they have.
If it turns out they didn't do their job, it would have been better to figure that out right away, rather than through Grand Jury (and other) investigations. If they did do their job, they should have provided the facts much sooner.They were slow and unresponsive enough to get the Chief a vote of no confidence.
Again, this has nothing to do with whether it was a good shoot.
But if it was your child, and no arrest was made, how long would you be willing to wait to get the facts?I'm going to quote Misty...Why would the police provide answers to the media or even the parents on an ongoing investigation where all the answers are not yet known? Today’s society believes they are entitled to everything and instantly at that.

As a parent, in this case, I would offer my assistance. I would ask what I can do, maybe TV appeals for anyone with information to come forward. I wouldn’t want their investigation rushed, quite the contrary, I want them to do the job properly so that everything they come across sticks and doesn’t become inadmissible if it gets to a jury trial. You must be clear what your goal is on things like this and help in a way that supports your ultimate goal.

On an ongoing investigation I wouldn’t want them releasing any facts until the moment where it would have the most impact, in a court of law. The people’s and media’s need to know wouldn’t fall anywhere in my list of important things.

Which would be your goal if you’re the parent, to have the public (people you don’t know and don’t give a hoot about) informed or have a proper investigation and a trial with evidence the public/media hasn’t tainted and poked holes in?

And if you are going to lie (by omission, half truths or flat out lies) to the public to get sympathy, expect that same public whose sympathy you gained to turn on you when they find out they were mislead.

.

As long as necessary, befriend one of the detectives in the case so you remain informed. Be discrete with what you learn as you are being trusted with information you shouldn’t have. Ask for advice , find out what you can do, keep eyes and ears open, talk to people and see who knows but doesn’t want to get involved, don’t attempt to approach those people but provide the detective with leads. Basically, help in lieu of becoming an obstacle. There are many ways to help, most of us don’t know exactly how, that is where guidance from those inside handling the case becomes important. Keep in mind that is not the only case they’re handling, be considerate. If it takes 6 weeks or 6 months, stay in touch continue to ask questions and offering assistance.

Or you can push and accuse, close all lines of communication and be left out in the cold not knowing a thing (because they never had to tell you in the first place). You can always then turn to the community, create conditions that you cannot control, bring in people that would do things you don’t agree with and are despicable.

The choices available are many, which are the ones that support your goals? Would you even know what your ultimate goal is?

.Springer, last year, late spring, my best friend had to shoot someone in self defense. The physical investigation, the police interviews, the forensic work, the follow up interviews of witnesses, review by the state attorney and preparation for the Grand Jury took 8 months and 3 weeks. I lived through those 35 weeks with him and his wife, kids and his mom who lives with them.

The family of the man shot said the usual our son had his issues, but he didn't deserve this. His history included not just issues, but serious violent behavior. The family started demanding information after two months. They were told that no information would be released until the police and state attorney completed their investigations. The family went to the media. The media started their search for information. They were told the same thing. No information prior to completing the investigations.

A month later the media did another story, this time with the family's version of what happened. Their version was not even close to reality. Police response to the media was the same.

As Misty suggested, early on we sought out a contact within the police department to work with using his attorney as the go between. It worked perfectly. Plus, I have a close friend on the force who also was able to help us communicate with the investigating detective and the state attorney.

After 7 1/2 months the family went back to the media with more false information about what happened and about the investigation - totally false information.

The day of the grand jury came, testimony given and then we waited. A few days later we got the call. The GJ had no billed the case.

But, it took 8 months and 3 weeks to accomplish that. It is not a quick process. It is methodical. It is thorough. It is not meant to be a fast-food drive-thru process. A person's life is on the line.

As to why police and prosecutor withhold information, an investigation involves asking questions to gather information. If you put out that information as you get it, others may be influenced by the witness statements of others. It might influence what others recall.

Look at what's happening in Sanford. Witnesses are still coming forward. How much have they been influenced by the 24/7 media reports? Now they have the "voice recognition experts" hired by the media.

People are infected by the CSI syndrome. They want everything done in the nice compact 1-hour format they see on television. They want the investigators to explain what they're doing as they're doing it.

That is not how it's done in the real world.

Oh, and my friend was never arrested. That is how it's done in the real world.

ModGlock17
04-01-2012, 21:14
Here is an interesting context that I am sure many people don't know, unless you've lived in Central Florida for extended time and have heard the underlying history of the region, some through tales from old timers at the coffee shop hang outs and documents at the local libraries that have now made some megabytes at internet history sites.

Some 40-60yrs ago, this region of Florida had been a hot bed for the Klan. There are many stories about how black men walking with white women, then completely "disappeared" from the face of the earth days later. I've collected earfuls of such stories but they are hard to identify as tales or history. However, from the volumes of such stories and the fervent attitude that accompanied the stories as they were told to me, I think there's a lot of truth in them.

Sanford, FL is no stranger to black/white controversy. There's a story of Harry Moore who was a Black activist registering so many blacks to vote. Moore and his wife died from their injuries when their house was fire-bombed around Xmas 1951. No one was ever arrested. And then there are stories of black business owners got stopped by police for no particular reason, etc. And there are stories of people just disappeared after conflicts with whites. All of these are backdrop to the current event, as it may explain how blacks view this event in the context of history.

perhaps if you are bored, you may find some of them made way to the internet.

No excuse. Just interesting backdrop!

In this 21st century, I am quite confident that the "feelings" are still alive, post MLK. It doesn't seem as blatant as in the old days, but it simmers.

DocCasualty
04-01-2012, 21:15
Former NAACP leader accuses Sharpton and Jackson of ‘exploiting’ Trayvon Martin
Published: 2:17 PM 03/26/2012
By Alex Pappas - The Daily Caller


Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.”

http://cdn2.dailycaller.com/2012/03/cl01-300x166.jpg

“His family should be outraged at the fact that they’re using this child as the bait to inflame racial passions,” Rev. C.L. Bryant said in a Monday interview with The Daily Caller.

The conservative black pastor who was once the chapter president of the Garland, Texas NAACP called Jackson and Sharpton “race hustlers” and said they are “acting as though they are buzzards circling the carcass of this young boy.”

Jackson, for example, recently said Martin’s death shows how “blacks are under attack” and “targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business.” (SEE ALSO: Jesse Jackson says Trayvon Martin ‘murdered and martyred’)

George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain, killed Martin, a 17-year-old black man who was unarmed at the time of his death, last month. Zimmerman has claimed to have shot Martin in self-defense and has not been charged with a crime.

But Bryant, who explores the topic of black-on-black crime in his new film “Runaway Slave,” said people like Jackson and Sharpton are being misleading to suggest there is an epidemic of “white men killing black young men.”

“The epidemic is truly black on black crime,” Bryant said. “The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/#ixzz1qqcJiNLM

TBO
04-01-2012, 21:20
Hindsight's always 20/20. I think all the players had a part in creating the current state.
1) The shooter should have backed off and not followed.
2) The shootee, very likely created the end-game situation. (It wasn't that long ago my son was 17. There's a lot of testosterone and not always good judgement at that age.)
3) Sanford PD could have handled it better, especially once the media circus began.
4) The media. (This case should be tried in court, not in emotional sound bites.)

The silver lining in this cloud?

I haven't been a registered voter in Sanford, Fl for almost 2 decades. I'm not worried about ending up on the jury. It won't be an easy one, for a lot of reasons.
Please detail for us how the PD could/should have "handled it better".

Thanks in advance

RussP
04-01-2012, 21:20
Here is an interesting context that I am sure many people don't know, unless you've lived in Central Florida for extended time and have heard the underlying history of the region, some through tales from old timers at the coffee shop hang outs and documents at the local libraries that have now made some megabytes at internet history sites.

Some 40-60yrs ago, this region of Florida had been a hot bed for the Klan. There are many stories about how black men walking with white women, then completely "disappeared" from the face of the earth days later. I've collected earfuls of such stories but they are hard to identify as tales or history. However, from the volumes of such stories and the fervent attitude that accompanied the stories as they were told to me, I think there's a lot of truth in them.

Sanford, FL is no stranger to black/white controversy. There's a story of Harry Moore who was a Black activist registering so many blacks to vote. Moore and his wife died from their injuries when their house was fire-bombed around Xmas 1951. Stories of black business owners got stopped by police for no particular reason, etc. And there are stories of people just disappeared after conflicts with whites. All of these are backdrop to the current event, as it may explain how blacks view this event in the context of history.

perhaps if you are bored, you may find some of them made way to the internet.

No excuse. Just interesting backdrop!It is interesting because a lot of the roots of the current underlying turmoil go back to those times. I was stationed in Orlando in 1967. Racial tensions were strong then.

Warp
04-01-2012, 21:21
Please detail for us how the PD could/should have "handled it better".

Thanks in advance


MtnBiker, I too am interested in what you think sanford PD could or should have done better

whoflungdo
04-01-2012, 21:59
Please detail for us how the PD could/should have "handled it better".

Thanks in advance


MtnBiker, I too am interested in what you think sanford PD could or should have done better


Not to answer for MTNbiker, but so far my experience with people with these views want Zimmerman falsely arrested to show they are working on the investigation.

janice6
04-01-2012, 22:27
If Zimmerman is judged to be legal, he should file a civil suit against the family for causing him stress and making him shoot the kid

Warp
04-01-2012, 22:32
If Zimmerman is judged to be legal, he should file a civil suit against the family for causing him stress and making him shoot the kid

The family? I definitely disagree.

Specific news media? Would like to see that.

janice6
04-01-2012, 22:40
The family? I definitely disagree.

Specific news media? Would like to see that.



OK. You disagree.

Warp
04-01-2012, 22:42
OK. You disagree.

Okay, I'll bite...aware me as to how the family is responsible for "making him shoot the kid"

Bren
04-02-2012, 04:31
It is interesting because a lot of the roots of the current underlying turmoil go back to those times. I was stationed in Orlando in 1967. Racial tensions were strong then.

I lived in Orlando in the 80's and there were KKK members around then. I recall the story of a white power skinhead band getting some sponsorship from the Klan (Brutal Assault, from Jacksonville). Orlando in the 80's was also home to a white power skinhead group, O-Town Skinheads - that first started using the crossed hammers, from The Wall as a skinhead symbol - 2 members of that group, and of local white power band, the Bully Boys, later moved to Texas and, based on that symbol, founded the Hammerskins and reformed the band.

"The Hammerskins are considered the United States' most well-organized white power skinhead group. ... In addition to the five chapters in the United States, Hammerskin chapters exist in Canada, France, Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, Hungary, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand and Australia."

Not bad for a couple of local guys from Orlando.

However, there were also some large black gangs and at least one black supremacist group linked to some murders, that the paper called the "Yawehs" - some sort of religious thing, best I recall.

Misty02
04-02-2012, 04:50
It is interesting because a lot of the roots of the current underlying turmoil go back to those times. I was stationed in Orlando in 1967. Racial tensions were strong then.

And they will remain strong for an eternity if fueled by others. Even if people try to work through it, there are others unwilling to let go that continue to bring it up as often as they possibly can.

I am part of a minority; I refused to state that in the census and listed us as “Americans”. I know that official documents in some places list us as Hispanic because we continue to receive poling calls where they want our opinion as representative of the Republican-Hispanic population. I’ve received at least 2 calls asking what is important for a Hispanic female. I would be a tad more cooperative if the callers just addressed me as the American citizen I am. If politicians only knew how that ticks off some Americans they might have a different script for their callers. It is as if certain segments of society refuses to accept full integration and provide a constant reminder of heritage that is not relevant, other than observing some traditions at home. As long as there are labels as Hispanic-American, African-American, Jewish-American and any other hyphenated American, people will continue to feel as outsiders in lieu of part of the overall American population.

I don’t have to accept it and I don’t. I know I’m not a natural born American citizen, but my children and grandchildren are. If where your parents, grandparents or ancestors were from is important, then all Americans should be hyphenated something unless they were Native Americans.

I won’t play the game by accepting such labels, unless others refuse to accept it as well it won’t go away, now or ever. That also means you can’t accept benefits because you are part of a segment of society, I wouldn’t accept money for college because I was Hispanic, but I accepted a grant based on my grades.

.

Arc Angel
04-02-2012, 04:51
Am I the only one who finds it odd that Zimmerman fired only once? I'd be really curious to discover the angle of that bullet path, too. I'd, also, like to know more about, 'the jewelry' reported to be found in Martin's backpack - What's up with that?

Misty02
04-02-2012, 06:04
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-shooting-prosecutor-angela-corey-jvm

Prosecutor: We haven't spoken to Zimmerman

"I wish there was this much outrage each time an innocent citizen is murdered."

ETA: I also agree with Russ' next post, prayer versus protest might be a better outlet for all involved.
.

RussP
04-02-2012, 06:43
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-shooting-prosecutor-angela-corey-jvm

Prosecutor: We haven't spoken to Zimmerman

"I wish there was this much outrage each time a citizen is murdered."People need to listen to this. Angela Corey, the Special Prosecutor, recognizes the family's need for information and says she'll provide it in a timely manner, but the investigation is ongoing.

Her last statement in the clip when asked about the 18 protests planned responded that she wished people would hold prayer rallies instead of protest rallies. She said everyone involved needs peoples prayers right now.

Funny, isn't it. Aren't some of the most vocal organizers of these protests preachers?

ZombieKing
04-02-2012, 07:44
Am I the only one who finds it odd that Zimmerman fired only once? I'd be really curious to discover the angle of that bullet path, too. I'd, also, like to know more about, 'the jewelry' reported to be found in Martin's backpack - What's up with that?

From what has been put out in the media and it has not been confirmed by police of course:

In the fight the gun came out. There was a struggle over the gun and it appears that Martin was holding the slide and when the gun was fired this prevented the gun from cycling and loading another round. So one shot.

The jewelry and a screwdriver was found in Martins backpack at school. He was under investigation for possible burglary.

ModGlock17
04-02-2012, 07:45
Funny, isn't it. Aren't some of the most vocal organizers of these protests preachers?

Preaching is a forum to exert control and regularly scheduled "air time" to an audience of their own, not because they are believers in Jesus.

Furthermore, some are just trouble makers looking for a reason to rebel (I would not elevate them to the status of "rebels"). Since Sanford is a site where an NAACP official was eliminated back in 1951 (Moore), I get the idea that these trouble makers would not mind having a place in the history book, which is a huge jump from where they are right now.

ModGlock17
04-02-2012, 07:53
Another 17 yrs old shot in Sanford early this Monday morning.
http://www.wesh.com/news/30815828/detail.html

Protest Plus?

And a 20yrs old shot dead from Sunday, in nearby area.
http://www.wesh.com/news/30815650/detail.html

Protest Plus Plus.

Jesseh gonna be busy.

RussP
04-02-2012, 07:56
Here is an article that reports that police did photograph Zimmerman's injuries. It is way down in the article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46922042/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.T3mriqtSTw1

There is also information about why Martin's family did not start looking for him for so long.

There is much more background on both Zimmerman and Martin. It's organized and readable.

whoflungdo
04-02-2012, 07:58
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-shooting-prosecutor-angela-corey-jvm

Prosecutor: We haven't spoken to Zimmerman

"I wish there was this much outrage each time an innocent citizen is murdered."

ETA: I also agree with Russ' next post, prayer versus protest might be a better outlet for all involved.
.


I like what I'm hearing from the prosecutor so far. She must be under quite a bit of pressure and scrutiny right now...

bear62
04-02-2012, 08:05
Here is an article that reports that police did photograph Zimmerman's injuries. It is way down in the article.

There is also information about why Martin's family did not start looking for him for so long.

There is much more background on both Zimmerman and Martin. It's organized and readable.

Russ, what article are you referring to?

FireForged
04-02-2012, 08:18
Like many posters, you have misstated the facts - undisputed facts - of what is alleged to have happened. There is no version of this story claiming anybody ran or was chased, only that Zimmerman followed or walked toward Martin.

Purhaps you are correct...Purhaps "chased" is not the correct term. As I said, I am not trying to judge the end result or who attacked who. Only that he "pursued"- "followed" "trailed" a suspicious teen in some fashion. It doesnt change the point I was attempting to make.

RussP
04-02-2012, 08:31
Russ, what article are you referring to?:embarassed: The one I went back and put in the link for...:embarassed:

RussP
04-02-2012, 08:42
I understand Martin's parents wanting an arrest, but, has anyone asked them if they would have wanted Trayvon arrested pending investigation, under the exact same circumstances?

redbaron007
04-02-2012, 09:01
Here is an article that reports that police did photograph Zimmerman's injuries. It is way down in the article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46922042/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.T3mriqtSTw1

There is also information about why Martin's family did not start looking for him for so long.

There is much more background on both Zimmerman and Martin. It's organized and readable.

The article quotes the Special Prosecutor, Ms. Corey, stating the Stand Your Ground law she be reviewed. Seems she may have some preconcieved prejudices. Question is, could these prejudices hamper her objectivity in handling the investigation? Let's hope not.

:wavey:

red

ModGlock17
04-02-2012, 09:13
The article quotes the Special Prosecutor, Ms. Corey, stating the Stand Your Ground law she be reviewed. Seems she may have some preconcieved prejudices. Question is, could these prejudices hamper her objectivity in handling the investigation? Let's hope not.

:wavey:

red

I noticed the same thing.

Orlando Sentinel is the local paper that posted articles about Zimmer video not seen injured, Scream not Zimmer's, etc. They don't post info that this MSNBC articles has. Could be two reasons:

1. Sentinel often got criticized as being high school level news org., with articles having grammatical mistake and spelling. Basic comprehension of the written subjects got challenged. Some people say they got their writers from nearby Evans HS, a D- level and nearly all black HS. People complain all the times.

2. MSNBC has better access to police info. Really? So I am not sure what to make of Ms. Corey's comment, whether it's taken out of context or she just appease to the other crowd to buy time.

RussP
04-02-2012, 09:40
The article quotes the Special Prosecutor, Ms. Corey, stating the Stand Your Ground law she be reviewed. Seems she may have some preconcieved prejudices. Question is, could these prejudices hamper her objectivity in handling the investigation? Let's hope not.

:wavey:

redYes, that needs to be placed in context.

She also said that Stand Your Ground has changed the rules for prosecutors, that now there's a different standard.

She said her office has handled at least three or four self defense cases every month, hundreds of them. But, here's the rub. It isn't just situations like this where people are using the Stand Your Ground defense. She said people are using it for everything from fights in bars to road rage.

She says, “We’ve lost Stand Your Ground motions that in my experience showed the shooter should not have shot,” she said. “Stand Your Ground needs a second look.”

We do not know the circumstances of those cases where she says the shooter should not have shot, and those who benefited from the law certainly would not have appreciated any restrictive change, but the law will be reviewed. Whether it will be changed - who knows...

Bren
04-02-2012, 09:46
She says, “We’ve lost Stand Your Ground motions that in my experience showed the shooter should not have shot,” she said. “Stand Your Ground needs a second look.”

Unless the facts of this case are far different than the police have told the press, the "stand your ground" law is irrelevant. Prior to it, the duty to retreat only applied where you could safely do so. It did not apply to a situation where a person was on top of you, beating your head against a sidewalk. Since that is the undisputed claim here, this shooting was allowed before "stand your ground."

RussP
04-02-2012, 10:06
Unless the facts of this case are far different than the police have told the press, the "stand your ground" law is irrelevant. Prior to it, the duty to retreat only applied where you could safely do so. It did not apply to a situation where a person was on top of you, beating your head against a sidewalk. Since that is the undisputed claim here, this shooting was allowed before "stand your ground."That is the test people are not applying, nor do they want to.

Now, whether either party had the opportunity to disengage before physical altercation...

redbaron007
04-02-2012, 10:48
Yes, that needs to be placed in context.

She also said that Stand Your Ground has changed the rules for prosecutors, that now there's a different standard.

She said her office has handled at least three or four self defense cases every month, hundreds of them. But, here's the rub. It isn't just situations like this where people are using the Stand Your Ground defense. She said people are using it for everything from fights in bars to road rage.

She says, “We’ve lost Stand Your Ground motions that in my experience showed the shooter should not have shot,” she said. “Stand Your Ground needs a second look.”

We do not know the circumstances of those cases where she says the shooter should not have shot, and those who benefited from the law certainly would not have appreciated any restrictive change, but the law will be reviewed. Whether it will be changed - who knows...

I agree, without knowing the context of the other cases, it's hard to make a firm determination; but, just on the surface of her comments, it does provide cause to make the hair on the back of my neck to rustle. :supergrin:

:wavey:

red

ZombieKing
04-02-2012, 10:48
Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-enhanced-video-040212_1_reporter-matt-gutman-abc-news-neighborhood-watch-volunteer-zimmerman)



"Reporter Matt Gutman said the clearer video shows "what appear to be a pair of gashes or welts on George Zimmerman's head.""

Fred Hansen
04-02-2012, 11:01
http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/2012/03/31/97965

ModGlock17
04-02-2012, 11:24
[QUOTE=ZombieKing;18790577]From what has been put out in the media and it has not been confirmed by police of course:

In the fight the gun came out. There was a struggle over the gun and it appears that Martin was holding the slide and when the gun was fired this prevented the gun from cycling and loading another round. So one shot.

QUOTE]

Does it help quench the debate that 9mm is adequate ?

Sorry. Off topic.

ModGlock17
04-02-2012, 11:32
I agree, without knowing the context of the other cases, it's hard to make a firm determination; but, just on the surface of her comments, it does provide cause to make the hair on the back of my neck to rustle. :supergrin:

:wavey:

red

Once you allow FLoridians to own, and carry guns, and defend themselves with it, it would take a miracle to take that away. I am confident of it.

There's a whole economic activity related to guns (retails, business). Plus it has become part of the "culture". You can't change culture in one generation.

Warp
04-02-2012, 11:34
Once you allow FLoridians to own, and carry guns, and defend themselves with it, it would take a miracle to take that away. I am confident of it.

There's a whole economic activity related to guns (retails, business). Plus it has become part of the "culture". You can't change culture in one generation.

I question how strong the culture is when open carry remains illegal.

dosei
04-02-2012, 11:53
Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-enhanced-video-040212_1_reporter-matt-gutman-abc-news-neighborhood-watch-volunteer-zimmerman)



"Reporter Matt Gutman said the clearer video shows "what appear to be a pair of gashes or welts on George Zimmerman's head.""

IMHO...the marks on the back of his head were visible in the original video. And one would fully expect to not see blood. The medics on scene would have cleaned him up and stopped the bleeding, especially nowadays with all the "blood borne pathogens".

RussP
04-02-2012, 11:55
I question how strong the culture is when open carry remains illegal.Warp, that's for another thread, please.

It's a valid topic, "Will this event influence or change efforts to repeal anti-open carry laws?"

bear62
04-02-2012, 13:06
:embarassed: The one I went back and put in the link for...:embarassed:

Thanks Russ for the link ........ VERY interesting read ....:wavey:

ballr4lyf
04-02-2012, 13:33
Here it comes...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/02/lawmakers-target-gun-laws-neighborhood-watch-in-wake-florida-teen-shooting/

cowboywannabe
04-02-2012, 13:53
criminals wearing hoodies.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10933801/

4TS&W
04-02-2012, 13:58
criminals wearing hoodies.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10933801/

Wow, seems more like mobwars than farmville.. :wow:

Peace Warrior
04-02-2012, 14:11
Here it comes...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/02/lawmakers-target-gun-laws-neighborhood-watch-in-wake-florida-teen-shooting/
eric holder decided to go after the Second Amendment,m but it backfired. he had his minions sell guns to Mexico's drug cartels, and then his internal memos/emails were leaked and we found out he did it so he strip away the 2A. This backfired on him after the leak, but even after he perjured himself, he kept his job, which means he was acting under orders.

I'm sure, with his hat in his hand, he promised barry soetoro he'd find something to get the 2A with, and now this M & Z thing is on the dictator's radar. Like ralph emanuel said, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste."

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste."

They couldn't take these rights away before, so now they will try based on this event. While we are using up resources keeping what we have, the puppets in DC are pressing forward with the agenda of their handlers. Folks, the endgame for the globalists is to get our guns, and if martial law being declared will facilitate this pursuit, then martial law it will be, and the excuse will be the civil unrest, which they caused all along, from this event. (hegel's dialectic is a favorite ploy with these gun grabbing cronies.)

IndyGunFreak
04-02-2012, 14:22
Well, if the Democrats want to get absolutely pummeled in November, this is the perfect way to go about it.

Blackhawk2001
04-02-2012, 14:23
While we may never know the truth of this incident, the MSM's spin on the story just keeps unraveling, giving more credence to Zimmerman's story and NO traction to the race baiters who are pushing this thing. I don't believe the feds will be able to muscle this their way because it's looking more and more like Z. was telling the truth.

vkscott
04-02-2012, 14:47
criminals wearing hoodies.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10933801/

So what are the local Yemenites to do? Can we get someone down there to demand answers? Can we get the Rev Al to make a statement? Where is this world heading?

kahrguy
04-02-2012, 14:58
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412#.T3oSjuKoSp4

SCmasterblaster
04-02-2012, 15:45
I cannot wait for this whole thing to end . . . . . a thread with over a thousand entries!!!!!!!!

Misty02
04-02-2012, 15:58
I cannot wait for this whole thing to end . . . . . a thread with over a thousand entries!!!!!!!!

I have a feeling that it is just beginning (obviously not the thread).

.

NDCent
04-02-2012, 16:00
I cannot wait for this whole thing to end . . . . . a thread with over a thousand entries!!!!!!!!

Why not treat it like I do the dancing with the stars tv show? I've never clicked on the channel, much less watched it. :dunno:

bear62
04-02-2012, 16:02
I cannot wait for this whole thing to end . . . . . a thread with over a thousand entries!!!!!!!!

I find the whole story line interesting. :wavey:

Warp
04-02-2012, 16:09
I cannot wait for this whole thing to end . . . . . a thread with over a thousand entries!!!!!!!!

There hasn't even been a grand jury event yet.

This is just getting started, one way or the other.

IndyGunFreak
04-02-2012, 16:25
There hasn't even been a grand jury event yet.

This is just getting started, one way or the other.

From what the new prosecutor has said, she said she doesn't think she'll need a GJ.. but.. who knows what that means.

Warp
04-02-2012, 16:27
From what the new prosecutor has said, she said she doesn't think she'll need a GJ.. but.. who knows what that means.

That...is kind of scary.

I think she needs the grand jury no matter how obvious she thinks her evidence is. The country will not even begin to accept anything less than a grand jury ruling. And even that...iffy

Misty02
04-02-2012, 16:32
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/angela-corey-prosecutor-i_n_1393810.html

She also has instituted a media blackout, refusing to comment on any aspect of the case as of this week. Corey refused to take any questions about the Trayvon Martin case during a telephone interview on Friday.

.

IndyGunFreak
04-02-2012, 16:37
That...is kind of scary.

I think she needs the grand jury no matter how obvious she thinks her evidence is. The country will not even begin to accept anything less than a grand jury ruling. And even that...iffy

That's also my line of thinking, but the article I read about it, said she rarely presented a case to a GJ.

Peace Warrior
04-02-2012, 16:39
Why not treat it like I do the dancing with the stars tv show? I've never clicked on the channel, much less watched it. :dunno:
Great point. Nice avatar! :wavey:

Misty02
04-02-2012, 17:36
That...is kind of scary.

I think she needs the grand jury no matter how obvious she thinks her evidence is. The country will not even begin to accept anything less than a grand jury ruling. And even that...iffy

There might not be grand jury ruling. She mentioned that a few days ago.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html#storylink=cpy


State attorney Angela Corey indicated her office, not a grand jury, will decide whether to bring charges in the death of Trayvon Martin.

.

Misty02
04-02-2012, 17:50
Here it comes...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/02/lawmakers-target-gun-laws-neighborhood-watch-in-wake-florida-teen-shooting/

This isn’t good! I better start writing to our legislators again.

.

bear62
04-02-2012, 18:41
This isn’t good! I better start writing to our legislators again.

.

All pro gun folks should be "writing" their legislators no matter what the issue....... :wavey:

vkscott
04-02-2012, 18:43
This isn’t good! I better start writing to our legislators again.

.

About attacking the gun laws or making it illegal to wear that hat :rofl:

Pardoner
04-02-2012, 18:45
This isn’t good! I better start writing to our legislators again.

.

This might make some of my voting decisions easier.

bear62
04-02-2012, 18:51
I see where Slick Willie is questioning the "stand your ground" law........ Guess he wants the victim to just lay down and die.......:whistling:

Misty02
04-02-2012, 19:07
All pro gun folks should be "writing" their legislators no matter what the issue....... :wavey:

Some times with more urgency than others. This one takes top priority!

About attacking the gun laws or making it illegal to wear that hat :rofl:

:tongueout: I’m so not going there!

This might make some of my voting decisions easier.

I usually don’t like any and have to settle for the least worst of the bunch. This doesn’t help me any! :crying:

.

ModGlock17
04-02-2012, 19:22
I see where Slick Willie is questioning the "stand your ground" law........ Guess he wants the victim to just lay down and die.......:whistling:

Floridians are OK with the law, as they had it voted in.

IMHO, it's the OUTSIDERs who are agitators. They came to Sanford and demonstrated in general (granted there are some local people, but the portion of outsiders is large). If it wasn't for the high gas prices, demontrations could have been much larger. It's the outsiders who stick their nose where it doesn't belong. They are not vested in the city's welfare so they don't mind causing harvoc.

Interestingly, neither Zimmerman nor Trayvon rooted in Sanford. Their paths just intersected there.

steveksux
04-02-2012, 19:25
Grand Jury sounds like a good idea, you can't trust the authorities to put aside their personal biases and make a decision based on legal expertise and only the available evidence, being sure to ignore all the misinformation put out by the media. :whistling:

Randy

Warp
04-02-2012, 19:32
Grand Jury sounds like a good idea, you can't trust the authorities to put aside their personal biases and make a decision based on legal expertise and only the available evidence, being sure to ignore all the misinformation put out by the media. :whistling:

Randy

If they decide not to pursue charges and then publicly release a bunch of evidence in support of that decision...yeah still not sure how that would go over.

I can imagine an awful lot of evidence that would support that decision, though...and not via grainy, enhanced surveillance videos

Peace Warrior
04-02-2012, 19:43
Grand Jury sounds like a good idea, you can't trust the authorities to put aside their personal biases and make a decision based on legal expertise and only the available evidence, being sure to ignore all the misinformation put out by the media. :whistling:

Randy
Tainting the public opinion and possible jury pool is what the media is doing. They use this script quite often. The added function of once again blaming guns in the hands of the citizens is also a script from this administration. They use the cold war communistic pl;an of taking three steps forward, retreating two, and telling everyone how much they lost, when in reality, they gained one step forward in their agenda the entire time. barry soetoro, as a former community organizer, knows this one very well.

CitizenOfDreams
04-02-2012, 21:10
She also has instituted a media blackout, refusing to comment on any aspect of the case as of this week. Corey refused to take any questions about the Trayvon Martin case during a telephone interview on Friday.

That's how Sanford Police should have handled it. "Mr Zimmerman shot Mr Martin in what we believe was an act of self defence. The investigation is still ongoing, we have no further comments at this moment."

TBO
04-02-2012, 21:37
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/zimmerman-family-member-calls-naacp-racists-says-there-will-be-blood-on-your-hands-if-george-is-hurt/#ixzz1qvA0vsM4

JuneyBooney
04-02-2012, 22:40
Did you guys see the enhanced ABC video? It appears Zimmerman was telling the truth. What will happen is that in the future is that Black teenagers will be allowed free rein on our streets.:wow: Wait a minute, that happens now. :shocked::whistling:

Warp
04-02-2012, 23:01
Did you guys see the enhanced ABC video? It appears Zimmerman was telling the truth.

It certainly appears that way.

janice6
04-02-2012, 23:26
Okay, I'll bite...aware me as to how the family is responsible for "making him shoot the kid"


Because it makes as much sense as all the people calling for suits against Zimmerman without the facts being determined.

No one cares for facts, just race.

Warp
04-02-2012, 23:37
Because it makes as much sense as all the people calling for suits against Zimmerman without the facts being determined.

No one cares for facts, just race.

It doesn't even make that much sense. They are calling for suits against Zimmerman based upon Zimmerman's own actions. You are talking about suing people who weren't even there.

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 04:44
It doesn't even make that much sense. They are calling for suits against Zimmerman based upon Zimmerman's own actions. You are talking about suing people who weren't even there.

If it was truly self defense, FL gives immunity from criminal prosecution and CIVIL actions. See the portion of FL statue:

776.032&emsp;Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.&mdash;
(1)&emsp;A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term &ldquo;criminal prosecution&rdquo; includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2)&emsp;A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3)&emsp;The court shall award reasonable attorney&rsquo;s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
History.&mdash;s. 4, ch. 2005-27.



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Misty02
04-03-2012, 05:09
The question is, does not guilty of murder equate to justified self-defense? Can or would a court deliver a verdict of one without mentioning the other?

.

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 05:16
The question is, does not guilty of murder equate to justified self-defense? Can or would a court deliver a verdict of one without mentioning the other?

.

I am not a PA. (Disclaimer)

It takes an arrest and a trial to get a "not guilty" verdict. FL law prevents an arrest (see earlier post statue 776.032) if it is self defense.

The point is, if it is deemed self-defense, you don't even enter the court system = less costs all around.

redbaron007
04-03-2012, 07:47
If Corey wants to make the decision, then obviously this will not be a capitol case, since they have to have a GJ to pursue capitol charges.

Although she seems to already have controversy surrounding her prior actions; the comment about this being an election year, for her position, also opens the door of scrutiny.

Unfortunately, Zimmerman is going to be criticized regardless of what happens. If he is convicted, many will say he was railroaded by the media and prosecutor; however, if he walks, the race baitors will cry foul and Zimmerman will never be able to live in peace.

:wavey:

red

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 08:13
As a defense atty, I think you would hate FL law here, because it means less business for you.

I would guess this incidence is a whole lot simpler than it appears to us, who have no access to evidences. What complicates things for Corey is all about public relations. Zimmerman can hedge by filing libel charges against the Opposing crowd and seek injunctions against them. Other than that, his life is forever changed and he has to look over his back all the times.

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OctoberRust
04-03-2012, 09:15
Looks like enhanced video may back up Zimmerman's claims



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57408577-504083/enhanced-video-shows-apparent-injury-on-george-zimmermans-head-police-say/

whoflungdo
04-03-2012, 09:41
Looks like enhanced video may back up Zimmerman's claims



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57408577-504083/enhanced-video-shows-apparent-injury-on-george-zimmermans-head-police-say/


"That does not change our position," she said. "Once again, George Zimmerman was the aggressor. He pursued Trayvon in this instance. If he did have any medical injuries, that did not give him the right to use deadly force and shoot and kill Trayvon."

I think they have finally settled on their claim now that the evidence is continuing to come in and seems to be verifying what Zimmerman claims. They seem to be conceding that Trayvon assaulted George. Trayvon was justified in beating Zimmerman because he "pursued" Trayvon, but Zimmerman wasn't justified or in fear for his life from said beating and should of used less force than he did. Yes, I am inferring quite a bit here, but that is what appears to be going on.

ballr4lyf
04-03-2012, 10:06
I think they have finally settled on their claim now that the evidence is continuing to come in and seems to be verifying what Zimmerman claims. They seem to be conceding that Trayvon assaulted George. Trayvon was justified in beating Zimmerman because he "pursued" Trayvon, but Zimmerman wasn't justified or in fear for his life from said beating and should of used less force than he did. Yes, I am inferring quite a bit here, but that is what appears to be going on.

I believe head injuries could be counted as "great bodily harm". Correct me if I'm wrong. I just remember a story of a local off duty EMT here who tried to break up a fight, ended up taking a punch (just a single punch) which knocked him out. His head bounced off the concreted and he was DRT.

RussP
04-03-2012, 10:08
What whoflungdo said...

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 10:09
I am not a PA. (Disclaimer)

It takes an arrest and a trial to get a "not guilty" verdict. FL law prevents an arrest (see earlier post statue 776.032) if it is self defense.

The point is, if it is deemed self-defense, you don't even enter the court system = less costs all around.
We Floridians fought long and hard for this common sense aspect of the OUR law. Some of us have been fighting since 1983. :cool:

High Altitude
04-03-2012, 11:20
I think they have finally settled on their claim now that the evidence is continuing to come in and seems to be verifying what Zimmerman claims. They seem to be conceding that Trayvon assaulted George. Trayvon was justified in beating Zimmerman because he "pursued" Trayvon, but Zimmerman wasn't justified or in fear for his life from said beating and should of used less force than he did. Yes, I am inferring quite a bit here, but that is what appears to be going on.

I agree, the evidence is there and they can't ignore it in court.

I am sure they are going to basically say if a strange person with a gun is stalking you, wouldn't you want to protect yourself???

Since there is evidence that there might of been a struggle for the pistol, they will probably say this shows Zimmerman had his pistol out before the altercation happened, this is the reason Trayvon attacked him, to protect his life etc.....

Of course there is no evidence to support this beyond a reasonable doubt, but they have to come up with their side of the story..............

My question would be how do you bash someones head into the ground and fight for the pistol at the same time without getting shot, which would of had to have happened if Zimmerman had his pistol out before the fighting started and was set on killing him. Makes sense to me that the struggle for the pistol came after the beating.

I seriously doubt the pistol was out of the holster before the beating began.

whoflungdo
04-03-2012, 11:36
I believe head injuries could be counted as "great bodily harm". Correct me if I'm wrong. I just remember a story of a local off duty EMT here who tried to break up a fight, ended up taking a punch (just a single punch) which knocked him out. His head bounced off the concreted and he was DRT.


You misunderstood my point. I was stating what I inferred the family of Trayvon was up to and how they are going to proceed. If what has been reported to up to this point and from all the information I've seen, read, or heard, GZ was justified in using deadly force and was in fear for his life or grave bodily harm.

Watch the talking heads and race baiters change their tactic to GZ pursued Trayvon and should not of used as much force as he did on an unarmed child...They can't change the facts, but they can change the narrative.

NDCent
04-03-2012, 11:58
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/zimmerman-family-member-calls-naacp-racists-says-there-will-be-blood-on-your-hands-if-george-is-hurt/#ixzz1qvA0vsM4

I realize the family/lawyers probably feel their hands are tied at the moment, but glad to see someone in the family had enough sac to speak up. :thumbsup:

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 12:00
delete (posted before reading a couple posts deeper.)

ballr4lyf
04-03-2012, 12:02
You misunderstood my point. I was stating what I inferred the family of Trayvon was up to and how they are going to proceed. If what has been reported to up to this point and from all the information I've seen, read, or heard, GZ was justified in using deadly force and was in fear for his life or grave bodily harm.

Watch the talking heads and race baiters change their tactic to GZ pursued Trayvon and should not of used as much force as he did on an unarmed child...They can't change the facts, but they can change the narrative.

Oh... I'm dense sometimes. :faint:

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 12:09
You misunderstood my point. I was stating what I inferred the family of Trayvon was up to and how they are going to proceed. If what has been reported to up to this point and from all the information I've seen, read, or heard, GZ was justified in using deadly force and was in fear for his life or grave bodily harm.

Watch the talking heads and race baiters change their tactic to GZ pursued Trayvon and should not of used as much force as he did on an unarmed child...They can't change the facts, but they can change the narrative.
Gotcha!
What whoflungdo said...
Hear hear.
I agree, the evidence is there and they can't ignore it in court.

I am sure they are going to basically say if a strange person with a gun is stalking you, wouldn't you want to protect yourself???

Since there is evidence that there might of been a struggle for the pistol, they will probably say this shows Zimmerman had his pistol out before the altercation happened, this is the reason Trayvon attacked him, to protect his life etc.....

Of course there is no evidence to support this beyond a reasonable doubt, but they have to come up with their side of the story..............

My question would be how do you bash someones head into the ground and fight for the pistol at the same time without getting shot, which would of had to have happened if Zimmerman had his pistol out before the fighting started and was set on killing him. Makes sense to me that the struggle for the pistol came after the beating.

I seriously doubt the pistol was out of the holster before the beating began.
Completely agree at this point with the facts as presented thus far, and without forthcoming evidence to show otherwise, Z killed M in self-defense.

The rest is just racially motivated suppositions by nottoosharpton in an attempt to blackmail both emotions and money from the American public at large.

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 12:13
Oh... I'm dense sometimes. :faint:
Nawtatall. I needed the second clarification post too as he is typically too well thought out to believe the hype from an attorney. (NOTE: Not that there is anything wrong with that as if I were the attorney I'd probably do the same with as much or more fervor.)

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 12:45
That's how Sanford Police should have handled it. "Mr Zimmerman shot Mr Martin in what we believe was an act of self defence. The investigation is still ongoing, we have no further comments at this moment."
If I'm not mistaken, the Sanford Police did do this at first, but I may be mistaken.

bear62
04-03-2012, 13:16
What if Zimmerman is never charged with anything ..... that is, no trial whatsoever??

If this is the case ... and I believe it will be ... when will the Sanford Police (and other authorities) release all the pertinent data, such as an autopsy report?? There must be dozens of detailed photos of Z's head after being attacked to share with the public ...... Just sayin'

IndyGunFreak
04-03-2012, 13:38
Trayvon Martin Story [4 Min Tribute Film] - YouTube

I'm speechless.. "but it's not meant to alter anyone's views or opinions"..lol

Yeah right. I like how it shows "Zimmerman" standing over him swinging and Trayvon laying on the ground trying to defend himself.

Bren
04-03-2012, 13:45
What if Zimmerman is never charged with anything ..... that is, no trial whatsoever??

If this is the case ... and I believe it will be ... when will the Sanford Police (and other authorities) release all the pertinent data, such as an autopsy report?? There must be dozens of detailed photos of Z's head after being attacked to share with the public ...... Just sayin'

Zimmerman wasn't autopsided and CSI is not real life, so I doubt they took dozens of pictures of his head - probably a couple, plus the report from the EMT's would be plenty.

jack76590
04-03-2012, 14:33
If the case goes to trial, jury selection will be interesting. In fact, I believe, jury selection would pretty much determine the outcome. Do you agree?

bear62
04-03-2012, 15:09
I don't see anything except civil trial(s)....... and hopefully the
"media" is the defendant in some of these.

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 15:10
Zimmerman wasn't autopsided and CSI is not real life, so I doubt they took dozens of pictures of his head - probably a couple, plus the report from the EMT's would be plenty.
This^^^, and adding the fact that practically all professional care givers make their notes immediately upon ending care. Mentioned that to note that there is typically zero ambiguity ('cept maybe for prognoses) and no seconds reports unless patient returns for follow-up.

Peace Warrior
04-03-2012, 15:15
The Trayvon Martin Story huh?

Yup, it's a story alright.

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 16:05
I don't see anything except civil trial(s)....... and hopefully the
"media" is the defendant in some of these.

I see civil trial(s), too.

George Zimmerman can make plenty against major news organizations, for malicious libel (redundant terms, I know).

If he is smart enough to negotiate rights to the story with Tracy Martin and if Martin is smart enough to accept, then they can share royalty to books and movie deals.

May be this is the break in life he's looking for, a more solid future for the family.

Roger1079
04-03-2012, 16:42
Trayvon Martin Story [4 Min Tribute Film] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaSK4lk3ox0)

I'm speechless.. "but it's not meant to alter anyone's views or opinions"..lol

Yeah right. I like how it shows "Zimmerman" standing over him swinging and Trayvon laying on the ground trying to defend himself.Did Al Sharpton direct and produce that?

xmanhockey7
04-03-2012, 17:05
Whoever made that video must have been there to know what really happened. Or they're speculating on what they think happened.

257 roberts
04-03-2012, 17:10
If the case goes to trial, jury selection will be interesting. In fact, I believe, jury selection would pretty much determine the outcome. Do you agree?
absolutely without a doubt!!!!!

RussP
04-03-2012, 17:13
Whoever made that video must have been there to know what really happened. Or they're speculating on what they think happened.I believe you forgot the sarcasm smilie...

Warp
04-03-2012, 19:00
Whoever made that video must have been there to know what really happened. Or they're speculating on what they think happened.

What they think happened? Or what they want other people to believe happened...?

Misty02
04-03-2012, 19:39
I see civil trial(s), too.

George Zimmerman can make plenty against major news organizations, for malicious libel (redundant terms, I know).

If he is smart enough to negotiate rights to the story with Tracy Martin and if Martin is smart enough to accept, then they can share royalty to books and movie deals.

May be this is the break in life he's looking for, a more solid future for the family.

I doubt they will be able to collaborate on a book or a movie, I don’t think either will concede to the other story being the correct one. Stranger things have happened though.
.

G22Dude
04-03-2012, 19:56
Whoever made that video must have been there to know what really happened. Or they're speculating on what they think happened.

That's what's most offensive about this whole situation. People who really have no idea of what happened are so willingly running off at the mouth and whipping others up in a frenzy:steamed:

Blackhawk2001
04-03-2012, 20:07
I think they have finally settled on their claim now that the evidence is continuing to come in and seems to be verifying what Zimmerman claims. They seem to be conceding that Trayvon assaulted George. Trayvon was justified in beating Zimmerman because he "pursued" Trayvon, but Zimmerman wasn't justified or in fear for his life from said beating and should of used less force than he did. Yes, I am inferring quite a bit here, but that is what appears to be going on.

If M. DID beat on Z., he was in violation of a Florida Statute which makes it unlawful to interfere with, intimidate or assault a neighborhood watchman in pursuit of his neighborhood watch activities. So M. gets no slack either way it went down as long as it was ruled a self-defense shooting. Not that the "interference" or the "intimidation" would have been reason to shoot, but the "fear of great bodily injury or death" probably applies.

Warp
04-03-2012, 20:10
I think they have finally settled on their claim now that the evidence is continuing to come in and seems to be verifying what Zimmerman claims. They seem to be conceding that Trayvon assaulted George. Trayvon was justified in beating Zimmerman because he "pursued" Trayvon, but Zimmerman wasn't justified or in fear for his life from said beating and should of used less force than he did. Yes, I am inferring quite a bit here, but that is what appears to be going on.

If their argument requires Trayvon being justified in attacking Zimmerman they seem to have already lost.




I am sure they are going to basically say if a strange person with a gun is stalking you, wouldn't you want to protect yourself???


Trayvon knew Zimmrerman had a gun...?

janice6
04-03-2012, 20:24
What they think happened? Or what they want other people to believe happened...?


This is closer to the truth.

debbert
04-03-2012, 20:28
If M. DID beat on Z., he was in violation of a Florida Statute which makes it unlawful to interfere with, intimidate or assault a neighborhood watchman in pursuit of his neighborhood watch activities. So M. gets no slack either way it went down as long as it was ruled a self-defense shooting. Not that the "interference" or the "intimidation" would have been reason to shoot, but the "fear of great bodily injury or death" probably applies.

Do you have that Statute number? I've tried to look it up with no luck, and I want to read it.

noway
04-03-2012, 20:42
Same here, I would like to see this supposed statute :wow:

vkscott
04-03-2012, 21:18
Trayvon Martin Story [4 Min Tribute Film] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaSK4lk3ox0)

I'm speechless.. "but it's not meant to alter anyone's views or opinions"..lol

Yeah right. I like how it shows "Zimmerman" standing over him swinging and Trayvon laying on the ground trying to defend himself.

I like the disclaimer at the end of the video that says its not inteneded to change anyones views, it just to shed light that Z's actions led to the event. While that may be true, it altercation is completely against eyewitness accounts. The many "earwitnesses" reported what they heard and even stated they were too afraid to go look out their window during the altercation. Only after the gun was fired. At least for me, it would be the opposite (I think). I would look out the window during the screaming and be more leery after the gunshot.

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 21:24
Do you have that Statute number? I've tried to look it up with no luck, and I want to read it.

Title XLVI (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVI#TitleXLVI)
CRIMESChapter 843 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0843/0843ContentsIndex.html)
OBSTRUCTING JUSTICEView Entire Chapter (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0843/0843.html)843.20 Harassment of participant of neighborhood crime watch program prohibited; penalty; definitions.—(1) It shall be a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=crime%20watch&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.082.html) or s. 775.083 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=crime%20watch&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.083.html), for any person to willfully harass, threaten, or intimidate an identifiable member of a neighborhood crime watch program while such member is engaged in, or traveling to or from, an organized neighborhood crime watch program activity or a member who is participating in an ongoing criminal investigation, as designated by a law enforcement officer.
(2) As used in this section, the term:(a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress in that person and serves no legitimate purpose.
(b) “Organized neighborhood crime watch program activity” means any prearranged event, meeting, or other scheduled activity, or neighborhood patrol, conducted by or at the direction of a neighborhood crime watch program or the program’s authorized designee.

History.—s. 2, ch. 2004-18.

It's important to note that Crime Watch programs are blessed by local police departments. It's meant to DETER crime, which is a tad more than a feel-good activity but it is never tasked with "policing power" for that community. Therefore, people working in Crime watch programs do not have any special policing power like pursue, arrest, nor detain others. They are not even granted permission to open carry firearms !

George carried his firearm as a given right to all Floridians, as long as it is concealed. He may not be around now, if it had been an open carry, a totally different outcome!

debbert
04-03-2012, 21:28
Title XLVI (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVI#TitleXLVI)
CRIMESChapter 843 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0843/0843ContentsIndex.html)
OBSTRUCTING JUSTICEView Entire Chapter (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0843/0843.html)843.20 Harassment of participant of neighborhood crime watch program prohibited; penalty; definitions.—(1) It shall be a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=crime%20watch&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.082.html) or s. 775.083 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=crime%20watch&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.083.html), for any person to willfully harass, threaten, or intimidate an identifiable member of a neighborhood crime watch program while such member is engaged in, or traveling to or from, an organized neighborhood crime watch program activity or a member who is participating in an ongoing criminal investigation, as designated by a law enforcement officer.
(2) As used in this section, the term:(a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress in that person and serves no legitimate purpose.
(b) “Organized neighborhood crime watch program activity” means any prearranged event, meeting, or other scheduled activity, or neighborhood patrol, conducted by or at the direction of a neighborhood crime watch program or the program’s authorized designee.

History.—s. 2, ch. 2004-18.



Thanks! I wonder if George Zimmerman would be considered "identifiable" in this case?

High Altitude
04-03-2012, 21:34
If their argument requires Trayvon being justified in attacking Zimmerman they seem to have already lost.





Trayvon knew Zimmrerman had a gun...?

Of course we have no idea. I am only saying what I think the prosecution will say......

There is evidence that there was a struggle for the pistol so the prosecution will probably say that Trayvon saw the gun, attacked Z to protect himself, went for the gun etc.... and in the process got shot.

Only my opinion.

What else are they going to say........ Trayvon attacked a man that was legally following and approached him, saying "Hey, what are you doing here?"

Warp
04-03-2012, 21:37
What else are they going to say........ Trayvon attacked a man that was legally following and approached him, saying "Hey, what are you doing here?"

Who says that there will be a prosecution to say anything?

They would have to try and say that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation and is therefore not able to claim self defense.

You don't have to argue that Trayvon was completely justified in all of his actions to claim that Zimmerman was not justified...and vice versa.

High Altitude
04-03-2012, 21:56
But Zimmerman would have to do something that would justify Trayvon to legally attack him.

Following someone, walking up to them and confronting someone with words is not instigation enough for someone to go right to beating them.

Who says that there will be a prosecution to say anything?

They would have to try and say that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation and is therefore not able to claim self defense.

You don't have to argue that Trayvon was completely justified in all of his actions to claim that Zimmerman was not justified...and vice versa.

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 22:00
Thanks! I wonder if George Zimmerman would be considered "identifiable" in this case?

I got stumped with that word, too.

But it is only a misdemeanor and pretty much academic now. I don't think this statue would ever be enforced by the DAttorney unless it can be proven that the BGuy knew Crime Watch people on duty. No badge, and usually no uniform or even a standard uniform that is identifiable by non-local people.

All of this is really irrelevant to this case. The bottomline is that George got the crap beat out of him and had to defend himself. Trayvon miscalculated. End of story.

It goes for all Floridians. We don't have to be in a Crime Watch program to defend ourselves. If we are threatened or see other threatened, we can use deadly force only for defensive purpose.

vkscott
04-03-2012, 22:08
I read an interesting article (http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-183813181.html) that has me somewhat confused. The article was published by Daniel Trotta of Reuters a few hours ago. In the story, when the police made initial contact with Tracy Martin (the father) the morning after the shooting, they showed a crime scene photo of Trayvon with “his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth.” I don’t believe I have ever heard that account, not that it really matters what I recall, it just sounded interesting and I supposed expected, they needed to see if this was Tracy’s son. The story goes on to say (please forgive any formatting issues)

“On Wednesday, the day after receiving the news, Martin went to the Sanford Police Department looking for answers - and his son's body. Police took him to a room and played some of the 911 recordings of neighbors who called to report a disturbance followed by a gunshot. They did not play an earlier call to a police non-emergency line, during which Zimmerman reported a "suspicious guy" and ignored the operator's suggestion to quit following him.”

What is interesting to me is Zimmerman’s phone call reference to the non-emergency line. I recall hearing that in the beginning but couldn't recall where. I assume this is when Tracy made the initial statement that the voice was not Trayvon (again an assumption). But what I found most interesting, is Investigator Serino’s conversation with Tracy in “another room” of the police department. In that room, Investigator Serino would tell Tracy Martin, George Zimmerman’s account of that night. Here is how Martin recalls what Serino said:

"He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.

"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, ‘What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says ‘I don't have a problem.'

"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.

"At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'"


I do not recall ever reading or hearing this account of the story, and from listening to the tapes of George calling the non-emergency dispatcher, how can that be. Unless this is what happened after George hung up. Which if that is the case, does this prove George had retreated to his vehicle and was in fact “confronted” by Trayvon? I thought Trayvon was found face down, I suppose he could have rolled over before he died.


The story talks about finding their attorney, Ben Crump. His initial phone conversation with Tracy Martin (he has taken the case pro bono)

"I told him to believe in the system," Crump said of that first call. "I really believed they were going to arrest Zimmerman. I said, 'He's a neighborhood watch person with a gun. Of course they are going to arrest him just for that.'" "Then 48 hours passed and they still hadn't arrested him," Crump said. "After that we just had to do what we had to do."


What? When did it become a crime to lawfully carry a handgun when you are part of an NWP? Glad its not that way in TX, otherwise I wold be breaking the law.:supergrin:

Ben Crump insisted that Chief Lee to make the tapes public. The Chief resisted but was overruled by Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett. On March 16th, the mayor invited the Martins and their legal team into his office and played all of the 911 calls.

"When we got to the cries for help, that was when Sybrina burst into tears," recalled Jackson. "She said, 'That's Trayvon. That's our son.' She ran out of the room crying."


Ms. Jackson is another attorney for the Martins, she too took this case pro bono.

I’m so confused. What are your thoughts?

Warp
04-03-2012, 22:14
But Zimmerman would have to do something that would justify Trayvon to legally attack him.


Not necessarily, no.

Even if Trayvon illegally attacked Zimmeran that does not guarantee that Zimmeran would be found justified in using lethal force.

I think no charges will be filed, for the record

ModGlock17
04-03-2012, 22:16
But Zimmerman would have to do something that would justify Trayvon to legally attack him.

Following someone, walking up to them and confronting someone with words is not instigation enough for someone to go right to beating them.

My argument against that notion would be: this 17 yrs old is not that logical. If he had been logical, he would not be horizontal now.

If he had been smart, he would have unhood and be friendly and perhaps even apologize for causing concerns. There's no cost for a few friendly words, then why didn't he use friendly words so people can hear him. If he was indeed confrontational, then he must have done and planned to do something more sinister.

As George's lawyer, I would paint Trayvon as an angry young man, an aggressive football player, a young man whose world was not a happy one with parents who didn't care enough for him to give him the ultimate gift of a happy family and a stay-together parent, a young man so angry at his world that he felt like he had nothing to lose. He leveraged his physical prowess to beat up on George.

vkscott
04-03-2012, 22:19
Title XLVI (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVI#TitleXLVI)
CRIMESChapter 843 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0843/0843ContentsIndex.html)
OBSTRUCTING JUSTICEView Entire Chapter (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0843/0843.html)843.20 Harassment of participant of neighborhood crime watch program prohibited; penalty; definitions.—(1) It shall be a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=crime%20watch&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.082.html) or s. 775.083 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=crime%20watch&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.083.html), for any person to willfully harass, threaten, or intimidate an identifiable member of a neighborhood crime watch program while such member is engaged in, or traveling to or from, an organized neighborhood crime watch program activity or a member who is participating in an ongoing criminal investigation, as designated by a law enforcement officer.
(2) As used in this section, the term:(a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress in that person and serves no legitimate purpose.
(b) “Organized neighborhood crime watch program activity” means any prearranged event, meeting, or other scheduled activity, or neighborhood patrol, conducted by or at the direction of a neighborhood crime watch program or the program’s authorized designee.

History.—s. 2, ch. 2004-18.

It's important to note that Crime Watch programs are blessed by local police departments. It's meant to DETER crime, which is a tad more than a feel-good activity but it is never tasked with "policing power" for that community. Therefore, people working in Crime watch programs do not have any special policing power like pursue, arrest, nor detain others. They are not even granted permission to open carry firearms !

George carried his firearm as a given right to all Floridians, as long as it is concealed. He may not be around now, if it had been an open carry, a totally different outcome!

I doubt Trayvon would have been able to "identify" George as part of the NWP. Afterall, he was a guest of the community. Plus, didn't the police report state that George was on a personal errand when the shooting took place. The only place I have seen that he was "on patrol" was in the media.

High Altitude
04-04-2012, 00:24
Not necessarily, no.

Even if Trayvon illegally attacked Zimmeran that does not guarantee that Zimmeran would be found justified in using lethal force.

I think no charges will be filed, for the record

I agree that that is the whole case, was Zimmerman in a life or death situation etc...... but I don't think the prosecution will go with this. I think they will try to show why Trayvon was justified to beat him etc... and that Trayvon was the victim, only protecting himself.

I also thought no charges would be filed, but after listening to the lady prosecutor on TV I am not so sure now.

Shouldn't be that much longer before we find out what is the next step.

If this goes to trial it will be the biggest case in the publics eye since OJ IMO.

High Altitude
04-04-2012, 00:27
I doubt Trayvon would have been able to "identify" George as part of the NWP. Afterall, he was a guest of the community. Plus, didn't the police report state that George was on a personal errand when the shooting took place. The only place I have seen that he was "on patrol" was in the media.

I agree with this. It sounds like once words where starting to be said Zimmerman went from hero to zero and wanted nothing more than to get out of there with his tail between his legs. In other words, I think Zimmerman realized that he was in over his head. I seriously doubt he pulled the watch captain routine etc...

Warp
04-04-2012, 00:28
. I think they will try to show why Trayvon was justified to beat him etc... and that Trayvon was the victim, only protecting himself.


I don't see how they could make that case, based upon what we know.

You aren't justified in attacking somebody because they are tailing you.

High Altitude
04-04-2012, 01:06
I don't see how they could make that case, based upon what we know.

You aren't justified in attacking somebody because they are tailing you.

Well they have the girlfriend's testimony who was on the cell phone with Trayvon at the time. Who knows what she will say......

John Biltz
04-04-2012, 02:41
I don't think he will be prosecuted either. I don't think Zimmerman is a hero either. I said when this happened that it is probably going to be about two not very smart people who both made mistakes. But his story from what I have heard is supported by the evidence and the story was good enough to avoid being arrested. If the story stands up he will walk.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 04:19
But Zimmerman would have to do something that would justify Trayvon to legally attack him.

Following someone, walking up to them and confronting someone with words is not instigation enough for someone to go right to beating them.

I’m not so sure about that. It is obvious that in this case they might have to prove whether Zimmerman was justified or not (that is the only part in question). That alone shouldn’t negate whether Martin was also justified or not. There is still a possibility that both were justified, from their point of view, based on what was going on.

We don’t know if Martin attempted to evade, hid and in spite that was still found by Zimmerman. What would you do if an unidentified person with unknown intent was following you, you attempted to evade, found a hiding place, and that person continued looking for you until they found you?

We may now know more about Martin’s background and him not to be the angelic undeveloped 17 year old the media led everyone to believe he was, but we still know pretty much nothing other than Zimmerman’s original story. Whatever evidence the police has may assist in proving whether Zimmerman was being beaten and thus justified to defend himself. However, there may still be little to no evidence as to how they both got to that point and time and whether or not Martin was justified in defending himself as well. Just because Zimmerman might have meant no original harm to Martin doesn’t mean that Martin would have known that. As it turns out, he was in fact being followed by an armed person that ultimately took his life.

.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 04:34
How can anyone know such details unless they were there? Either there is a witness that we don’t know about or someone is making up stuff. Even if you can lay out physical evidence to support one possible scenario, where do you come up with the words, thoughts and intent? This all reads as the theatrics involved in opening or closing statements to the jury or the first draft for a movie script.

I read an interesting article (http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-183813181.html) that has me somewhat confused. The article was published by Daniel Trotta of Reuters a few hours ago. In the story, when the police made initial contact with Tracy Martin (the father) the morning after the shooting, they showed a crime scene photo of Trayvon with “his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth.” I don’t believe I have ever heard that account, not that it really matters what I recall, it just sounded interesting and I supposed expected, they needed to see if this was Tracy’s son. The story goes on to say (please forgive any formatting issues)


“On Wednesday, the day after receiving the news, Martin went to the Sanford Police Department looking for answers - and his son's body. Police took him to a room and played some of the 911 recordings of neighbors who called to report a disturbance followed by a gunshot. They did not play an earlier call to a police non-emergency line, during which Zimmerman reported a "suspicious guy" and ignored the operator's suggestion to quit following him.”


What is interesting to me is Zimmerman’s phone call reference to the non-emergency line. I recall hearing that in the beginning but couldn't recall where. I assume this is when Tracy made the initial statement that the voice was not Trayvon (again an assumption). But what I found most interesting, is Investigator Serino’s conversation with Tracy in “another room” of the police department. In that room, Investigator Serino would tell Tracy Martin, George Zimmerman’s account of that night. Here is how Martin recalls what Serino said:


"He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.


"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, ‘What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says ‘I don't have a problem.'

"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.

"At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'"
I do not recall ever reading or hearing this account of the story, and from listening to the tapes of George calling the non-emergency dispatcher, how can that be. Unless this is what happened after George hung up. Which if that is the case, does this prove George had retreated to his vehicle and was in fact “confronted” by Trayvon? I thought Trayvon was found face down, I suppose he could have rolled over before he died.


The story talks about finding their attorney, Ben Crump. His initial phone conversation with Tracy Martin (he has taken the case pro bono)
"I told him to believe in the system," Crump said of that first call. "I really believed they were going to arrest Zimmerman. I said, 'He's a neighborhood watch person with a gun. Of course they are going to arrest him just for that.'" "Then 48 hours passed and they still hadn't arrested him," Crump said. "After that we just had to do what we had to do."
What? When did it become a crime to lawfully carry a handgun when you are part of an NWP? Glad its not that way in TX, otherwise I wold be breaking the law.:supergrin:

Ben Crump insisted that Chief Lee to make the tapes public. The Chief resisted but was overruled by Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett. On March 16th, the mayor invited the Martins and their legal team into his office and played all of the 911 calls.
"When we got to the cries for help, that was when Sybrina burst into tears," recalled Jackson. "She said, 'That's Trayvon. That's our son.' She ran out of the room crying."
Ms. Jackson is another attorney for the Martins, she too took this case pro bono.

I’m so confused. What are your thoughts?

Misty02
04-04-2012, 05:16
My argument against that notion would be: this 17 yrs old is not that logical. If he had been logical, he would not be horizontal now.

If he had been smart, he would have unhood and be friendly and perhaps even apologize for causing concerns. There's no cost for a few friendly words, then why didn't he use friendly words so people can hear him. If he was indeed confrontational, then he must have done and planned to do something more sinister.

As George's lawyer, I would paint Trayvon as an angry young man, an aggressive football player, a young man whose world was not a happy one with parents who didn't care enough for him to give him the ultimate gift of a happy family and a stay-together parent, a young man so angry at his world that he felt like he had nothing to lose. He leveraged his physical prowess to beat up on George.

I don’t know about that. To me neither was logical, personal opinion and not based on legalities. Logic would dictate that you don’t follow an unknown person who you believe is suspicious and possibly on drugs, that’s for Zimmerman’s side. For Matin, logic dictates that if you believe you’re in trouble and being followed you dial 911 or someone else close by for help. If you are going based on logic it would stand to reason that the older of the two would have more maturity and thus higher accountability for following logic.

Based on some articles, Martin had not played football since he was about 14 or so. I would be more inclined to mention athletic than I would being a football player, assuming the information on the articles is correct.

I’m not an attorney but I think the first thing that needs to be justified would be Zimmerman’s thoughts at the time he exited his vehicle and how he felt it was his obligation to do whatever possible to ensure the safety of his community, that he was following in order to keep an eye on Martin and provide his location to the police once they arrived. If they can get past the hurdle of leaving the vehicle, then they get a chance to incorporate physical evidence to support his need for self-defense.

.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 05:18
I agree that that is the whole case, was Zimmerman in a life or death situation etc...... but I don't think the prosecution will go with this. I think they will try to show why Trayvon was justified to beat him etc... and that Trayvon was the victim, only protecting himself.

I also thought no charges would be filed, but after listening to the lady prosecutor on TV I am not so sure now.

Shouldn't be that much longer before we find out what is the next step.

If this goes to trial it will be the biggest case in the publics eye since OJ IMO.

And just because Martin was justified in self-defense doesn’t negate that Zimmerman could have been acting in self-defense as well.

.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 05:27
I don't see how they could make that case, based upon what we know.

You aren't justified in attacking somebody because they are tailing you.

Put yourself in these shoes: A strange man is following you in his SUV, you have a bad feeling about the whole thing and attempt to evade, in doing so you get out of the path where the vehicle can follow and hide behind some building. The man exits his vehicle and goes looking for you eventually discovering your hiding place. It is dark out, you are alone trying to escape and can’t. You don’t know who he is, what his intentions are, whether he is armed or not. All you know is that he is without a doubt following and trying to get you. What do you do when he finds you again?

.

expatman
04-04-2012, 05:31
I would ask him what his "deal" was. I would certainly not attack him at that point. I might even tell him to stop following me. Perhaps I would call the cops and tell them a strange and suspicious man was following me.

Those all sound like reasonable responses to me. Maybe my opinion is tainted because of all the Martin/Zimmerman threads though.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 05:44
I would ask him what his "deal" was. I would certainly not attack him at that point. I might even tell him to stop following me. Perhaps I would call the cops and tell them a strange and suspicious man was following me.

Those all sound like reasonable responses to me. Maybe my opinion is tainted because of all the Martin/Zimmerman threads though.

As a woman, I would not expose myself and try to confront the person following me to see why they are following me. Nonetheless, I would be on the phone with 911 and the encounter would be recorded until police arrived or a reaction became inevitable. It is quite likely the person (should they attempt to continue their approach) would be informed that I'm on the phone with the police. We play it by ear from there.

.

Toetag
04-04-2012, 06:01
What do you do when he finds you again?

.

How is it that you know that Z "found" M? From the 911 transcripts, Z plainly states that he's lost M:

Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.


Everything that I've read says that M found, or otherwise confronted or engaged, Z.

It kinda blows the whole "hunted down like a dog" theory away and puts M in the drivers seat in the altercation.

I'm curious, from the academic standpoint and in the unlikely event that this ever sees the light of day in court, what both sides do with the chain of events.

vkscott
04-04-2012, 06:01
Well they have the girlfriend's testimony who was on the cell phone with Trayvon at the time. Who knows what she will say......

But didn't her testimony come several days after the media frenzy? Plus everything I've heard about her story we already know. Their conversation stopped just as the altercation started.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 06:09
How is it that you know that Z "found" M? From the 911 transcripts, Z plainly states that he's lost M:




Everything that I've read says that M found, or otherwise confronted or engaged, Z.

It kinda blows the whole "hunted down like a dog" theory away and puts M in the drivers seat in the altercation.

I'm curious, from the academic standpoint and in the unlikely event that this ever sees the light of day in court, what both sides do with the chain of events.

I don’t, and neither does anyone else so far unless they have inside knowledge of the investigation. What is printed, and even what is in the police reports is either what Zimmerman said (they may or not be able to prove it) or what others guess happened.

My only attempt is to keep my mind open to the possibility that many things not known and that can’t be proven could have taken place.

I agree with you that this is an interesting case with enormous ramifications for us all.


.

ZO6Vettever
04-04-2012, 06:34
If George Zimmerman had broken any Florida laws he would have been arrested. Hopefully our Stare reps don't water down "the stand your ground" and "fear for your life" verbage. I thought OC would become part of Florida's gun laws but this shooting has most supporters keeping their mouth shut.

ModGlock17
04-04-2012, 07:09
However, there may still be little to no evidence as to how they both got to that point and time and whether or not Martin was justified in defending himself as well.

.

Most media article attempt to revive this incidence, which in imho, is running out of its 15min fame as more concrete fact is coming out. They all zero'ing in how the situation got to that point.

I am a neutral person (I think). I would say it is irrelevant how you got there; it's relevant how you react to the situation that came upon you.


As a woman, I would not expose myself and try to confront the person following me to see why they are following me.

.

I think that is an important statement. That's what most reasonable people would do.

Now, imagine a neighborhood cat (to say that you are annoyed by a smaller statue) tailing you in an unfriendly manner, would you turn around and kick the cat ? especially if you are an athletic teenager when most people at this age tend to feel some level of invincibility ?

But such argument is irrelevant. If you beat up on a little one causing bodily harm, FL law allows the little one to use lethal force to defend her/himself. How you got to that situation that gives you overwhelming advantage, is irrelevant.

It could be that little one threw dirty diapers at you, but if she is threatened by you with serious harm, she is allowed to take you down.

bear62
04-04-2012, 08:51
The fact is none of us know what actually happened. We have Zimmerman's account, which may be completely true, partially true, or a complete fabrication.

I tend to believe Z's story. It's my opinion that Martin grew tired of being followed and decided to end it by beating the crap out of Zimmerman. Z, in fear for his life, drew his gun and stopped the physical assault. I believe Florida's stand your ground law will prevent any criminal prosecution of Zimmerman.

It's also my opinion that George Zimmerman lacks common sense and this lack of common sense put himself in this no win situation. Z's actions that night were less than brilliant. He will live with this nightmare forever.

Just sayin' ..... :wavey:

bear62
04-04-2012, 09:09
Listen to the calls for help in this video ...... Skip to about 1 min 12 seconds for the screams to start ......... What do you think? Anyone??

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/

Warp
04-04-2012, 09:14
Put yourself in these shoes: A strange man is following you in his SUV, you have a bad feeling about the whole thing and attempt to evade, in doing so you get out of the path where the vehicle can follow and hide behind some building. The man exits his vehicle and goes looking for you eventually discovering your hiding place. It is dark out, you are alone trying to escape and can’t. You don’t know who he is, what his intentions are, whether he is armed or not. All you know is that he is without a doubt following and trying to get you. What do you do when he finds you again?

.

Why is escape not an option??

Glockdude1
04-04-2012, 09:14
The fact is none of us know what actually happened. We have Zimmerman's account, which may be completely true, partially true, or a complete fabrication.

I tend to believe Z's story. It's my opinion that Martin grew tired of being followed and decided to end it by beating the crap out of Zimmerman. Z, in fear for his life, drew his gun and stopped the physical assault. I believe Florida's stand your ground law will prevent any criminal prosecution of Zimmerman.

It's also my opinion that George Zimmerman lacks common sense and this lack of common sense put himself in this no win situation. Z's actions that night were less than brilliant. He will live with this nightmare forever.

Just sayin' ..... :wavey:

:agree:

ModGlock17
04-04-2012, 09:16
In light of situations can come at us from any angle, I think it is smart to have a video cam with us. They are so cheap and portable with good low light and high definition, smaller than a cigarette pack.

Always have one in my car.

Have a larger system in your home, a few hundred bucks for such a system, and you can view it on internet from somewhere else.

I also would like to see GT organize a defense fund for members who are contributing to the fund, may be a few bucks each can really add up.

RussP
04-04-2012, 10:04
In light of situations can come at us from any angle, I think it is smart to have a video cam with us. They are so cheap and portable with good low light and high definition, smaller than a cigarette pack.

Always have one in my car.

Have a larger system in your home, a few hundred bucks for such a system, and you can view it on internet from somewhere else.

I also would like to see GT organize a defense fund for members who are contributing to the fund, may be a few bucks each can really add up.Any fund raising would have to be cleared through Eric. Send him a pm. No response is a no answer.

ballr4lyf
04-04-2012, 10:17
It's also my opinion that George Zimmerman lacks common sense and this lack of common sense put himself in this no win situation.

Didn't I read somewhere that Z is a registered Democrat??? :whistling:

SpringerTGO
04-04-2012, 10:35
The fact is none of us know what actually happened. We have Zimmerman's account, which may be completely true, partially true, or a complete fabrication.

I tend to believe Z's story. It's my opinion that Martin grew tired of being followed and decided to end it by beating the crap out of Zimmerman. Z, in fear for his life, drew his gun and stopped the physical assault. I believe Florida's stand your ground law will prevent any criminal prosecution of Zimmerman.

It's also my opinion that George Zimmerman lacks common sense and this lack of common sense put himself in this no win situation. Z's actions that night were less than brilliant. He will live with this nightmare forever.

Just sayin' ..... :wavey:

You start by saying "The fact is none of us know what actually happened".
Then you go on to say you tend to believe Zimmermans story, and that he lacks common sense, etc.

If you would have stopped at the first line, or maybe added the last line ("He will live with this nightmare forever") after that, it would have made more sense.
Everything in-between is speculation.

ballr4lyf
04-04-2012, 10:50
I believe Florida's stand your ground law will prevent any criminal prosecution of Zimmerman.

As far as this is concerned, I don't believe the SYGL will apply. What seems to be coming out is that Z was pinned down by M (or why else could he have gotten an injury to the back of his head, and the back of his jacked covered with grass). If that is the case, then retreat was already impossible, which therefore does not even come in to SYGL territory. Simply put, SYGL says that if retreat is possible, there is no duty to do so.

vkscott
04-04-2012, 10:51
You start by saying "The fact is none of us know what actually happened".
Then you go on to say you tend to believe Zimmermans story, and that he lacks common sense, etc.

If you would have stopped at the first line, or maybe added the last line ("He will live with this nightmare forever") after that, it would have made more sense.
Everything in-between is speculation.

But if we stuck to what we know, imagine how boring this thread would be. Not to mention how short. :rofl:

TBO
04-04-2012, 11:21
I have no idea whether the shooting was right or wrong, and I hope that Zimmerman gets a fair trial, if it goes to trial.

That said, if it was my teenage son who was killed, I would want answers. The Sanford police weren't responsive enough to the parent's media's questions, and because of that they fueled the media frenzy.
I think it sucks that Zimmerman is getting tried in the court of public opinion, and that a lot of this might have been avoided had the Sanford police been forthright with the information they have.
If it turns out they didn't do their job, it would have been better to figure that out right away, rather than through Grand Jury (and other) investigations. If they did do their job, they should have provided the facts much sooner.
What is your answer to this?

jack76590
04-04-2012, 11:32
As a woman, I would not expose myself and try to confront the person following me to see why they are following me. Nonetheless, I would be on the phone with 911 and the encounter would be recorded until police arrived or a reaction became inevitable. It is quite likely the person (should they attempt to continue their approach) would be informed that I'm on the phone with the police. We play it by ear from there.

.

Misty,

You touch on a point I think no one has mentioned. Martin had a phone, as he was talking to his girlfriend. I think the first reaction of most people concerned about being followed, but not in immediate harm, would be to call 911.

ModGlock17
04-04-2012, 12:14
Misty,

You touch on a point I think no one has mentioned. Martin had a phone, as he was talking to his girlfriend. I think the first reaction of most people concerned about being followed, but not in immediate harm, would be to call 911.

I wasn't there. Having said that, Z's intuition that M was up to no good is likely accurate, which we will never know. That explains why calling 911 wasn't done, because he might have to answer why he was snooping around.


Outdoor Hub

Blackhawk2001
04-04-2012, 12:36
I wasn't there. Having said that, Z's intuition that M was up to no good is likely accurate, which we will never know. That explains why calling 911 wasn't done, because he might have to answer why he was snooping around.


Outdoor Hub

OR he might have not been paying close attention until Z. made himself obvious, then didn't think about calling 911 because he'd been taught not to trust the cops.

RussP
04-04-2012, 13:15
OR he might have not been paying close attention until Z. made himself obvious, then didn't think about calling 911 because he'd been taught not to trust the cops.Where did you read he'd been taught not to trust the cops?

grmnracing
04-04-2012, 13:17
Where did you read he'd been taught not to trust the cops?

Lmao. Come on you don't get it!


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

SpringerTGO
04-04-2012, 13:42
What is your answer to this?

Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.

Peace Warrior
04-04-2012, 13:59
delete (off-topic)

Peace Warrior
04-04-2012, 14:21
Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.
Would you cite where the Police agreed as such.

Bren
04-04-2012, 14:26
Where did you read he'd been taught not to trust the cops?

Reality, like the answer to this question, may be racist.

John Biltz
04-04-2012, 14:37
You start by saying "The fact is none of us know what actually happened".
Then you go on to say you tend to believe Zimmermans story, and that he lacks common sense, etc.

If you would have stopped at the first line, or maybe added the last line ("He will live with this nightmare forever") after that, it would have made more sense.
Everything in-between is speculation.
By his own words he got out of his car to look for an unknown suspicious person at night in the rain. That is a very bad judgement call. For all he knew the person could have been armed and if he was he probably would have been dead. That is the first reason I think he was not very smart. The second reason is that he then allowed the suspect who he thought was suspicious already to close enough to attack him. Now none of that is illegal, but sure was not smart. Before you chase something it is always smart to consider what you are going to do if you catch it.

Peace Warrior
04-04-2012, 15:00
By his own words he got out of his car to look for an unknown suspicious person at night in the rain. ...
True. He is in the local neighborhood watch program. They are trained to observe and report.
...That is a very bad judgement call. ...
He is a participant in the neighborhood watch program, which he lives in a neighborhood that had recent numerous crimes (including break-ins). He was following through on his commitment to his neighborhood watch responsibilities.

Not bad judgement at all. You're simply wrong here.
... For all he knew the person could have been armed and if he was he probably would have been dead. That is the first reason I think he was not very smart. ...
So you would only be a good neighborhood watch participant when all the criminals coming into your neighborhood are UNARMED. Gotcha! (please don't move near me.)
... The second reason is that he then allowed the suspect who he thought was suspicious already to close enough to attack him. ...
Here is where you skew the entire scenario in order to key-hole the outcome as only caused by Z, which only this conclusion fits into your underlying supposition about this event.

As far as we know from Police reports: Z lost sight of M and then Z either had just made it back to his truck, or was going back to his truck when M attacked Z from behind. Due to Z being attacked from behind by M, M gained the upper hand quickly and opened a can of whoop-*** on Z.
... Now none of that is illegal, but sure was not smart. ...
You're right, as far as we know from eyewitnesses and Police reports, Z did NOTHING illegal, but M did by way of committing assault on Z.
... Before you chase something it is always smart to consider what you are going to do if you catch it.
You're trying to imply that Z chased M yet again. This has been your theme throughout and you are completely ignoring known facts from eyewitnesses and the statements of those involved in this event.

You sound not unlike the racists that are trumping this whole issue up based on the color of someone's skin. Are you on nottoosharpton's payroll?

Yes. M chased and caught Z. It is a tragedy for M's family

bear62
04-04-2012, 15:45
You start by saying "The fact is none of us know what actually happened".
Then you go on to say you tend to believe Zimmermans story, and that he lacks common sense, etc.

If you would have stopped at the first line, or maybe added the last line ("He will live with this nightmare forever") after that, it would have made more sense.
Everything in-between is speculation.

With more than a 1000 posts in this thread, speculation has been quite common. I doubt we will ever know exactly what happened that night. For whatever reason I tend to accept Z's story ........ and yes I have a strong belief Z is lacking in the common sense department.......... :wavey:

SpringerTGO
04-04-2012, 15:55
Would you cite where the Police agreed as such.

It's common knowledge the police didn't release information pending the investigation. It's also common knowledge that played a part in the no confidence vote and police chief stepping down.

whoflungdo
04-04-2012, 17:02
It's common knowledge the police didn't release information pending the investigation. It's also common knowledge that played a part in the no confidence vote and police chief stepping down.

It's common knowledge that police departments do not normally release specifics of a case or make public comments regarding a case until they are at least through with the investigation..

bear62
04-04-2012, 18:19
Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...:faint:

Misty02
04-04-2012, 18:35
Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.

Need, want and can have are all different things. The special prosecutor assigned has declared a media black-out until they are finished with their investigation. What makes anyone think that the rules would be different while the investigation was being conducted by the PD?

When did the police agree that they had not given the parents the information they needed?

.

Misty02
04-04-2012, 18:44
Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...:faint:

How do you know that for sure?

I’ve seen people go free that I was certain were guilty. There are also people that have been charged and convicted that are likely innocent.

If there is a trial and all the permissible evidence and witness statements is exposed to the jury, don’t assume ALL they have has been made available.

Lawyers and judges prepare and do tons of research before each case where they have access to everything there is. No one outside the special prosecutor’s office at the moment may know all there is to know and even they don’t seem to be certain yet if Zimmerman could be guilty of a crime or not (or they would have stated they have concluded their investigation and found nothing).
.

PAGunner
04-04-2012, 18:59
Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...:faint:

Based on what we know, I would concur with you. He should have NEVER gotten out of his car, even though I believe he did turn back after 911 suggested he do so and was then attacked (which is why police haven't arrested him). Responsible people who carry know to avoid confrontation when you can, part of having SA.

I believe when the facts of the case come out, you'll see all the race hustlers shut up, like what happened with the Duke Lacrosse case, but we shall see.

garebel
04-04-2012, 19:28
It's common knowledge that police departments do not normally release specifics of a case or make public comments regarding a case until they are at least through with the investigation..

+1
And that is a good thing, IMO

Blackhawk2001
04-04-2012, 19:32
Where did you read he'd been taught not to trust the cops?

Where did I read it? Obviously the same place the guy I was responding to read that Z.s suspicions were probably well-founded. I speculated.

dpadams6
04-04-2012, 19:41
Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...:faint:

That is absolutely correct. End of story. Now everybody go home and be done/move on. Should not even be a grand jury.

Warp
04-04-2012, 19:42
Where did I read it? Obviously the same place the guy I was responding to read that Z.s suspicions were probably well-founded. I speculated.

What did you base your speculation on?

Speculations don't just get created out of thin air.

PAGunner
04-04-2012, 20:32
I think it's obvious to most of us here this looks like a good shoot, but I will say this. It is also a good lesson to AVOID confrontation as much as possible. For example, getting out of your car in Zimmerman's case, bad idea. I think we can all agree there. Let's all be responsible handgun carriers and exercise outstanding judgement at all times, so if, God forbid any of us have to shoot in self defense, there is no question about the shoot and no remorse on your part (I suspect Zimmerman feels plenty of remorse and wishes he never exited his vehicle, even though what he did wasn't legal nor did it warrant an attack).

Warp
04-04-2012, 20:34
For example, getting out of your car in Zimmerman's case, bad idea.

I think that agreement to that is the closest thing to a consensus I have seen thus far.

PAGunner
04-04-2012, 20:55
So my best friend, who happens to be African-American has an opinion on the matter. He believes Zimmerman defended himself, but from his view point, he has anger towards Zimmerman because as he put it, he was the adult and didn't have to get out of his car. As he put, why would someone who was worried enough about someone to call 911 get out and follow that person or even put himself in any harms way? This is a quote from my friend, who is pro-2a although doesn't carry (NY) but knows I carrry, "You can't be an idiot with a gun."

I agree with that, I've read constantly about others on this forum who always talk about avoiding situations, well now we see why. We see how the media can spin, and even how reasonable people can see a gun owner acting in self defense as acting irresponsibly, because that gun owner could have avoided the situation even though they were attacked unprovoked.

I think this shooting is a good lesson for all of us, I hope the stand your ground law in Florida remains unchanged, but I hope that every person who carries takes note of this case and does not become braver simply because a gun is strapped to their hip.

East River Guide
04-04-2012, 21:25
Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that. But if there were 9 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood I'd have a hard time saying everyone just wait for the cops and might do a little extra to keep an eye on the bad guys. And doing so shouldn't vitiate your right of self defense. Just sayin.

Actually I'd probably move but I recognize not eveyone has that inclination or luxury.

Warp
04-04-2012, 21:29
Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that. But if there were 9 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood I'd have a hard time saying everyone just wait for the cops and might do a little extra to keep an eye on the bad guys. And doing so shouldn't vitiate your right of self defense. Just sayin.

Actually I'd probably move but I recognize not eveyone has that inclination or luxury.

Can't get out of the car? No.

Getting out of the car meaning he cannot then defend himself? Not at all.

Getting out of the car as a mistake? Call it a tactical mistake if you like. Absolutely.

The fact that we have this incident/potential case to discuss shows why. Too much risk. Too much risk. WAY too much risk, for too little reward.

SpringerTGO
04-04-2012, 21:33
Need, want and can have are all different things. The special prosecutor assigned has declared a media black-out until they are finished with their investigation. What makes anyone think that the rules would be different while the investigation was being conducted by the PD?

When did the police agree that they had not given the parents the information they needed?

.

As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.

Warp
04-04-2012, 21:34
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.

Months?

PAGunner
04-04-2012, 21:36
Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that.

I'm playing devil's advocate, I understand your point of view, but I'll try my best to make you see the other side's point of view, which is a large part of society and that happens to be important for you to understand if you want to stay out of hot water...

Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.

I'll go further, do you believe George Zimmerman regrets getting out of the car that night? Answer that honestly and I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.

Warp
04-04-2012, 21:49
I'm playing devil's advocate, I understand your point of view, but I'll try my best to make you see the other side's point of view, which is a large part of society and that happens to be important for you to understand if you want to stay out of hot water...

Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.

I'll go further, do you believe George Zimmerman regrets getting out of the car that night? Answer that honestly and I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.

Bingo.

Even if the special prosecutor comes out and says Zimmeran was 100% justified, did nothing illegal, and need not fear prosecution...he would still be 10,000x better off had he stayed in his car.

And it's not like we are saying this based purely upon 20/20 hindsight, I suspect a great many of us would recommend staying in the car if this scenario was presented as a hypothetical that stopped at that decision point.

4Rules
04-04-2012, 21:55
By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561)
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.

Warp
04-04-2012, 22:13
By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561)
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.

Whose logic are you referring to?

RussP
04-04-2012, 22:15
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.While parents and family want information, the police need to make a thorough investigation using facts collected from untainted witnesses. Withholding critical information insures witnesses' recollections will not be swayed by what others say.

That's the way it works in the real world, SpringerTGO.

I've posted here before that I just went through a self defense shooting with my best friend. It took 8 1/2 months to complete the investigation and go to the Grand Jury. My friend was never arrested. The GJ no billed the case.

The family of the man shot also wanted to know about what was happening with the investigation. They also went to the media. They also introduced false and misleading information in their interviews.

This is not CSI television where you get to see the work that goes on behind the scenes as it happens.

What the family WANTS is not important to the investigation. The fair and complete investigation IS what's important.

You keep saying, "...if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed..."

How about the parent of the person claiming self defense? Do they not deserve a fair and thorough investigation without chance of errors being made resulting in a rush to justice.

Yes, everyone, what took seconds to happen will take months to resolve.

RussP
04-04-2012, 22:21
And it's not like we are saying this based purely upon 20/20 hindsight, I suspect a great many of us would recommend staying in the car if this scenario was presented as a hypothetical that stopped at that decision point.Is what's in bold the logic you refer to here...By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561)
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.
How do you get what's in bold from Warp's "staying in the car"?

I do not see it.

4Rules
04-04-2012, 22:26
I was speaking in reference to PAGunner.

noway
04-04-2012, 22:38
Bingo.

Even if the special prosecutor comes out and says Zimmeran was 100% justified, did nothing illegal, and need not fear prosecution...he would still be 10,000x better off had he stayed in his car.

And it's not like we are saying this based purely upon 20/20 hindsight, I suspect a great many of us would recommend staying in the car if this scenario was presented as a hypothetical that stopped at that decision point.

ditto

And to summarized,


All of the hassle he is in, to include trial by media, cost of a lawyer, hiding in fear for now and potentially the rest of his life. For what..............................?

A kid who happen to be black that he thought was suspicious, but not committing a recognozable crime at the time this rope was starting unravel by Mr.Z. Nor was TM placing Mr.Z or anybody else life , into a condition of serious bodily injury or harm.

SpringerTGO
04-04-2012, 22:49
While parents and family want information, the police need to make a thorough investigation using facts collected from untainted witnesses. Withholding critical information insures witnesses' recollections will not be swayed by what others say.

That's the way it works in the real world, SpringerTGO.

I've posted here before that I just went through a self defense shooting with my best friend. It took 8 1/2 months to complete the investigation and go to the Grand Jury. My friend was never arrested. The GJ no billed the case.

The family of the man shot also wanted to know about what was happening with the investigation. They also went to the media. They also introduced false and misleading information in their interviews.

This is not CSI television where you get to see the work that goes on behind the scenes as it happens.

What the family WANTS is not important to the investigation. The fair and complete investigation IS what's important.

You keep saying, "...if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed..."

How about the parent of the person claiming self defense? Do they not deserve a fair and thorough investigation without chance of errors being made resulting in a rush to justice.

Yes, everyone, what took seconds to happen will take months to resolve.

Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.

Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.

Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.
I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.

Warp
04-05-2012, 01:14
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.

Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.

Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.
I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.

I feel I have missed something.

Would you please quote the posts of mine you are referring to/talking about here?

Tiro Fijo
04-05-2012, 01:41
...Withholding critical information insures witnesses' recollections will not be swayed by what others say.

That's the way it works in the real world, SpringerTGO...


The family of the man shot also wanted to know about what was happening with the investigation. They also went to the media. They also introduced false and misleading information in their interviews.

This is not CSI television where you get to see the work that goes on behind the scenes as it happens.

What the family WANTS is not important to the investigation. The fair and complete investigation IS what's important...


How about the parent of the person claiming self defense? Do they not deserve a fair and thorough investigation without chance of errors being made resulting in a rush to justice...


SUPERB SUMMARY!!!


Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information...



Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed...


See Russ' post above. As well, would you rather we live in a dictatorship where one was summarily hung or shot without a thorough investigation of the facts merely to be "expedient" and to calm upset parents?

I recommend the movie "The Oxbow Incident". Rent it. :wavey:

John Biltz
04-05-2012, 01:51
Neighborhood watch is not allowed to be armed. Neighborhood watch is not supposed to approach suspicious people. That is because they are not police. They don't want untrained people out there acting like cops because incidents like this happen.

Whether he sneaked up behind him or approached him with a marching band does not matter, he allowed him to reach the distance to strike him. If he would have had a knife Zimmerman would have been dead. Do you think bad guys always attack from in plain sight? I had a friend who was shot by those thrill killers a few years ago in Phoenix. He was out walking the streets at 2:00 AM. He did not deserve to be shot for that. But it was stupid to be out walking around then.

My post was a reply to another poster responding to a previous post where I said he probably did nothing illegal but was not very smart. I also said Martin was not very smart also.

True. He is in the local neighborhood watch program. They are trained to observe and report.

He is a participant in the neighborhood watch program, which he lives in a neighborhood that had recent numerous crimes (including break-ins). He was following through on his commitment to his neighborhood watch responsibilities.

Not bad judgement at all. You're simply wrong here.

So you would only be a good neighborhood watch participant when all the criminals coming into your neighborhood are UNARMED. Gotcha! (please don't move near me.)

Here is where you skew the entire scenario in order to key-hole the outcome as only caused by Z, which only this conclusion fits into your underlying supposition about this event.

As far as we know from Police reports: Z lost sight of M and then Z either had just made it back to his truck, or was going back to his truck when M attacked Z from behind. Due to Z being attacked from behind by M, M gained the upper hand quickly and opened a can of whoop-*** on Z.

You're right, as far as we know from eyewitnesses and Police reports, Z did NOTHING illegal, but M did by way of committing assault on Z.

You're trying to imply that Z chased M yet again. This has been your theme throughout and you are completely ignoring known facts from eyewitnesses and the statements of those involved in this event.

You sound not unlike the racists that are trumping this whole issue up based on the color of someone's skin. Are you on nottoosharpton's payroll?

Yes. M chased and caught Z. It is a tragedy for M's family

Misty02
04-05-2012, 04:46
Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that. But if there were 9 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood I'd have a hard time saying everyone just wait for the cops and might do a little extra to keep an eye on the bad guys. And doing so shouldn't vitiate your right of self defense. Just sayin.

Actually I'd probably move but I recognize not eveyone has that inclination or luxury.

It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!

Even inside our own home, if it weren’t because our grown boys and grandson sleep on the other side of the house, we would hunker down in our room during a burglary, call the police and let them handle it. The only reason we leave our room is because there are others at risk, otherwise it would be unlikely we would go investigate things that go thump in the night.

You have to evaluate what is at risk versus what is there to gain at all times. If you take that evaluation a few steps beyond the “right now” and “what you actually know” you’ll come to the conclusion that other than the lives of your loved ones (or your own) little else is worth the risk.

.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 05:06
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.

You would be incorrect with such an assumption. I would be just as impatient (if not more). I would do everything in my power to learn what is going on, by being there and helping (rather than obstructing and becoming a nuisance) you get to find out more than you would otherwise, you get to be present during conversations that are not meant for your ears (but if you’re discrete and pretend to be doing something else you’ll get to hear). You volunteer to be their secretary, maid, delivery person (pick up lunch), whatever they need. You become as unnoticeable as their wall and as helpful as the best assistant they’ve ever had. Find out at what time people have lunch, show up with sandwiches and coffee, don’t drop them off and leave; find a way to sit there with them and eat yours too, ask some questions but not many, let them talk, listen to what they say to each other. You still will not be allowed everywhere and you won’t be told everything, but you would know a lot more than by demanding and becoming an obstruction they have to work around.

Always keep clear what your goal is and find the most positive way to attain it. It is up to you to create an atmosphere where they want to help you and keep you informed. If they don’t trust you, you’ll get what you’re entitled to, which isn’t much if you truly have a need to remain informed.

Why do people assume they’ll get the results they want by demanding them rather than working for them? I’ll never understand that.
.

Bren
04-05-2012, 05:09
It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!


I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 05:20
By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561)
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.

More than a few of my neighbors fall in the “loved ones” category. They are people that we care about and would do everything in our power to help. After the 2005 hurricanes, we became even closer. If they need someone to take them to the doctor, pick up medicine, do some grocery shopping and the like, we are there. If there is someone breaking into their home when they are not home we would call the police and let them handle it. Heck, if I came to my own home and suspected there were burglars inside I would call the police and let them handle it. When there were strange people in my neighbors back yard we called them, they weren’t expecting anyone to do any work and called the police. They didn’t ask us, nor would we have agreed to go there and try to prevent anything.

Personally, I wouldn’t join a neighborhood watch (even if you paid me). If I see something wrong I’ll call them. If I can’t get a hold of them, then I’ll call the police. If I suspect they are in danger, then I would have other decisions to make.

Pick your fights and know which are worth you risking your neck, in the big scheme of things, few of them are.


.

East River Guide
04-05-2012, 05:21
Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.


It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life?

There are different levels of analysis. If you look at it as a chain of causation or tactical error, yes there are ways to say getting out of the car was wrong, just as you can say some girl shouldn't have been walking down a street late at night alone in a short skirt or bad things wouldn't have happened to her. But I am still not eager to create legal or criminal liability for simply getting out of the car to investigate what could be a threat to your neighbors.

And of course in retrospect there was more risk there than I'm sure GZ wanted to take on. But really, there are plenty of people who go outside to investigate if they hear or see something suspicious on their property or maybe thier neighbor's. I'm not prepared to make them criminals for doing so, even if they could have stayed inside.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 05:42
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.

Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.

Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.
I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.

SpringerTGO, I went through one I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. It took many months of suffering I cannot even begin to describe. The detectives involved were incredible, and that is based on what I knew, much more went on behind the scenes that I didn’t even know about. At the end of the day they even obtained a hand written confession. His defense attorney claimed it was obtained under duress (lies), the confession became inadmissible; once the confession was thrown out witnesses started to back out. Witnesses consisted of children that had gone through hell for the many months the investigation lasted and I can’t blame the parents for backing out. The entire case evaporated right before our eyes and the guy walked.

The world and others in it owe you nothing. The police have a job to do, you can be an obstacle, demand all you want, and you’ll get nothing. Work diligently with them and you could still get nothing, but your odds suddenly get a tad better.

You think I’m a better person than you are? Hardly, I’ve just had the necessity to learn the hard way and always kept sight of what my goal actually was. It still didn’t work, but not for lack of trying.

.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 05:47
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.

We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 05:56
There are different levels of analysis. If you look at it as a chain of causation or tactical error, yes there are ways to say getting out of the car was wrong, just as you can say some girl shouldn't have been walking down a street late at night alone in a short skirt or bad things wouldn't have happened to her. But I am still not eager to create legal or criminal liability for simply getting out of the car to investigate what could be a threat to your neighbors.

And of course in retrospect there was more risk there than I'm sure GZ wanted to take on. But really, there are plenty of people who go outside to investigate if they hear or see something suspicious on their property or maybe thier neighbor's. I'm not prepared to make them criminals for doing so, even if they could have stayed inside.

I don’t believe he did anything illegal by leaving his vehicle. A girl walking alone at 2:00 AM is doing nothing illegal either. Neither is criminal and each should have the right to protect their life if the need arises. There is a huge difference between stating those actions are illegal and stating they are not wise or recommendable. Also keep in mind that there are times that doing something that is not wise is necessary, like women that are out alone at night walking toward their vehicle when they get out of work.

There are things you have to do in spite the risk; there are others you don’t have to. It is up to us to learn the difference.

.

RussP
04-05-2012, 06:01
I was speaking in reference to PAGunner.This one?I'm playing devil's advocate, I understand your point of view, but I'll try my best to make you see the other side's point of view, which is a large part of society and that happens to be important for you to understand if you want to stay out of hot water...

Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.

I'll go further, do you believe George Zimmerman regrets getting out of the car that night? Answer that honestly and I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.PAGunner is still only talking about the single point of Zimmerman, or anyone, exiting the vehicle.

Okay, is it this part that you're having trouble with?...I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.If one takes that as a standalone comment, notwithstanding the earlier established "did not get out of his car" context, then your post makes sense, good sense.

People should be involved. They should, however, know how far to take that involvement.There are things you have to do in spite the risk; there are others you don’t have to. It is up to us to learn the difference.

Peace Warrior
04-05-2012, 07:04
delete

Peace Warrior
04-05-2012, 07:13
Neighborhood watch is not allowed to be armed. ...
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/flyers/Neighborhood_Watch_english.pdf

Here is the URL for Sanford's brochure on neighborhood watch. I see no where in it where neighborhood watch participants are forbidden to be armed.

Please give me a cite or reason to believe that neighborhood watch participants are not allowed/should not be armed. (Remember, this is Florida, not Arizona, so the two may be different.)

Peace Warrior
04-05-2012, 07:17
Without a doubt,... the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.
Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents. (And understandably so by the way. If I were a parent I would WANT the information too.)

... It's also common knowledge that played a part in the no confidence vote and police chief stepping down.
Are you sure the Police Chief didn't step down due to the actual "leaks" to the media/public and or the fact that Z was not arrested that night, or AFTER THE MEDIA, with the help of infamous racists, decided to play it up as a gun control issue instead of what it actually was/is?

STGO,

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.

Look, you're not writing a newspaper article with a purely stylized entertainment value based on emotionalism in order to endear the masses to your point of view. Capisce?

RussP
04-05-2012, 07:26
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right.And I am not saying they are wrong for wanting answers. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.It is how we have evolved - instant gratification, fast food drive-thru, constant information approach to life.

I'm certain you've seen blooper clips from television shows and movies. That's where people make mistakes. Then they get to do the scene again, and again, and again, until they get it right. They finished product is seamless, a perfect flow.

Compare that to this situation. Every supposed fact discovered is a scene. Oops, that "fact" released three days ago has now been challenged and proven to be wrong, untrue, false. Can't go back and edit out the error. People believed it true when it was released. People are coming forward saying, "Yeah, that's how it happened...", only it could not in any way have happened in that manner. Oops...


And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.Sometimes, discovering the totality of the circumstances takes that long.

Okay, back to television... Has anyone here ever heard on a crime show a suspect mention a fact about a case and the cop says, "How did you know that detail? We never released that information." BAM, evildoer caught because they knew something about the crime only the person committing it would.

Collecting recollections and eyewitness observations from witnesses independently without one knowing what the other has said is the same thing. One person may recollect a detail that does not match descriptions given by others. Then you have to research whether that detail is right or wrong. If you publish the detail...Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.That's how you see it? I wish I had the skill to graph the swings in opinion in this thread as rumors emerge, as rumors are debunked or confirmed. The chart would have to come with Dramamine...Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.

I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.I do not believe we have said anyone is better or worse because of their wanting information.

Yep, the media and the glory hounds have exacerbated this event and complicated any understanding of what really happened that may come out of the investigation.

I've been questioning things since I was a teenager. Personal issues have been the toughest to question, and understanding the answers that came with the questions, that was difficult. I've made mistakes when I didn't look at both/all sides of the issue. Living with those mistakes reminds me why looking for the true cause of a situation is critically important. Life's lessons are hard.

I will say, again, that demanding every detail as it is discovered be published carries more risks than rewards.

Bruce M
04-05-2012, 07:45
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.


It can be an acceptable calculated risk dependng on skills, experience, ability, knowledge, etc.

On one hand Mr. Zimmerman's property did not seem to be in immediate jeopardy. On the other hand burglars have the ability to potentiall jeopardize anyone and everyone's property who is in the area.


As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.

Like it or not participants in events such as these generally need to wait months for final resolution. I do however wonder to what extent Sanford PD attempted to explain this to Martin's family. (Regardless of how much or little they attempted, the attempts did not work.)

SpringerTGO
04-05-2012, 07:51
Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents. (And understandably so by the way. If I were a parent I would WANT the information too.)


Are you sure the Police Chief didn't step down due to the actual "leaks" to the media/public and or the fact that Z was not arrested that night, or AFTER THE MEDIA, with the help of infamous racists, decided to play it up as a gun control issue instead of what it actually was/is?

STGO,

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.

Look, you're not writing a newspaper article with a purely stylized entertainment value based on emotionalism in order to endear the masses to your point of view. Capisce?

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.

bear62
04-05-2012, 08:08
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
Interesting read. Thanks, SpringerTGO

Peace Warrior
04-05-2012, 08:20
Interesting read. Thanks, SpringerTGO
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.
I believe I first posted this exact same link, on either this particular thread or one of GT's other Z & M threads, a LONG time ago. I've carefully read this specific release at least a dozen times before today.

You're refusing to give up your version of "facts" based on your view of what went wrong. What went wrong is that as far as we know, based on eyewitnesses and from other parties involved with this event, M attacked Z from behind.

RussP
04-05-2012, 08:22
Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.Still waiting on when the Police advise they agreed they didn't give out NEEDED information as opposed to information WANTED by the parents.

I am simply asking you to provide me with independent information which supports your claim(s) as I do not recall anything being mentioned or publicly released that backs up your assertions. In fact, it seems you are simply making "facts" up in order to under gird your own, individual suppositions about this entire event.http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.Sorry, but the the last paragraph of the letter from the City Manager does not affirm your allegation that the police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed.

The City Manager said, "Please understand that since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what information it can publicly release." is that what you're citing as your proof?

Misty02
04-05-2012, 08:23
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

It took all of 30 seconds to find, so if you really had any interest.
I'll save you a couple of pages...... just read the last paragraph.

Other than the City Manager interjecting his own opinion (or the opinion he wanted to project), what do you believe that paragraph says? A few things to keep in mind (1) he is a politician, (2) he needs to find a way to maintain peace in the community while the investigation is on-going, (3) He may not be privy to all the information at hand.


Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community



.

bear62
04-05-2012, 08:33
Gonna miss this thread when it's gone...... Lots of emotions shown here in a fairly civilized way.

I still think Z will walk ...... and while walking will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. Most likely his neighborhood watch days are behind him ......:wavey::wavey:

RussP
04-05-2012, 08:46
Like it or not participants in events such as these generally need to wait months for final resolution. I do however wonder to what extent Sanford PD attempted to explain this to Martin's family. (Regardless of how much or little they attempted, the attempts did not work.)Bruce, explaining the procedure will not satisfy the desire for the information. That is a given.

I would like to know who initiated the March 8 huffingtonpost.com article eleven days after the shooting. Did the media contact the Martins, or did they contact the media. My guess is the HuffPost Miami, launched in November 2011, went to the parents.

That started the fire storm less than two weeks into the investigation...

ZO6Vettever
04-05-2012, 09:16
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.

Bren, I can agree with keeping others away from my stuff but not at great risk to my life, perps life or general well being. Shoot somebody for messing with your stuff may have you end up his cellie or in the same cemetary. At best you would be out a whole lot of lawyer costs. Stuff is just that, stuff.