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Fred Hansen
04-05-2012, 11:34
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

.He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.

bluemonday
04-05-2012, 11:41
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/about-those-audio-forsenic-experts#comments

ModGlock17
04-05-2012, 11:50
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/about-those-audio-forsenic-experts#comments

When in doubt, follow the money!

These two men are trying to get publicity for their businesses. I would trust FBI Quantico technology more than $39 software that people can buy for Window 7 that can display sound waves.

This article initially published by the Orlando Sentinel, the same paper that attempted to equate a Funeral Home Director's observation (said no sign of struggle on M's body) with that of a well known Coroner (Dr. G).

svtpwnz
04-05-2012, 11:51
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.

Very well said and I couldn't agree more!

Bren
04-05-2012, 11:59
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.



Exactly. I have a fresh jar of peanut butter at home (Jif creamy) and a half-empty jar of the same. If somebody tries to take my half empty jar of peanut butter against my will, we will fight until I win or can't fight any more. End of story.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 12:14
I understood what he meant in principle. I must also apply it to reality. I am more willing to spend hours in court to ensure one of the robbery victims is there so those in the legal system can see there is a human being involved and not just a name in a piece of paper, than I am to risk my life only to have the crook (and his accomplices, if there are any) be out shortly to do the deed again.

The kids that burglarized our home were caught months after they stole from us. The police was able to pin 12 robberies on them, I’m sure there were more. Of all the people affected I was the only one to appear in court whenever I learned there was a hearing, or a trial or anything that meant the case (and them) was being reviewed.

The ways you speak of were better in my opinion; that still goes on to some degree in communities where people know each other. It happens within a 3 or 4 block radius where I live with people that know one another, not so much beyond that.

We cannot ignore some realities of the new ways, we may not like them, but we have little choice but to accept some of them. You are not allowed to correct a child’s behavior beyond stern words (and cautiously) if that child is not your own, if you do, your own children and grandchildren would not have a father, mother and/or grandparents to guide them in the right path and teach them what their current and future family expects of them.

You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world. We can; however, teach our children to do the right and moral thing. If you have several children than in turn have more than one we can hopefully increase the number of those that would do good versus those that do bad.

It is not that some of us elect to do nothing, it is that at times we select other less riskier routes to do what we believe is right. That goes back to: Am I willing to invest my time and energy in seeing the right thing is done? Yes. Am I willing to risk my life for it? It would depend, protection of property (mine or of others) doesn’t fall in that list. Nonetheless, I am thankful the thoughts and opinions of others differs on this and that some of you are willing to risk more to accomplish it.

He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.

ModGlock17
04-05-2012, 12:17
Personally, I wouldn’t join a neighborhood watch (even if you paid me). If I see something wrong I’ll call them. If I can’t get a hold of them, then I’ll call the police.
.......
Pick your fights and know which are worth you risking your neck, in the big scheme of things, few of them are.


.

We introduced an alert system in our subdivision that notifies residents in REAL TIME by text messaging to their cell phones. Note that cell phones has both a number and a provider like Verizon. With these info,you can text msg from an email account like Yahoo to any phone. We had some 200 residents signed up and built a mailing list.


When an event occurs, we send out simple msgs like “man wearing xxxx crossing yards and looking in windows of houses on ___ street at 3pm” or “suspicious GMC van, old white color, license ___ ____ trolling ____ blvd”, etc… Within seconds, such msg pops up in resident’s cell phones, and window shades begin to open and people take pictures.



This method needed no capital cost but it requires one or a few people in charge and have access to mailing list in trust worthy manner.

It shut down crime in our neighborhood only after a couple notifications. I suspect that when the housing bubble burst, our subdivision became too affordable for people who are crime-ful in their ways. Many of us noticed that crime increased since that time and each crime seemed to get bolder than the last one. It seemed to work for us. At a minimum, this is an efficient alert system. See if it works for you.

bear62
04-05-2012, 12:18
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/about-those-audio-forsenic-experts#comments

Why would Martin be screaming for help while he was beating the crap out of Zimmerman? Seems more likely the man getting his head bashed was screaming for his life ....... and that man would be George Zimmerman.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 12:43
We introduced an alert system in our subdivision that notifies residents in REAL TIME by text messaging to their cell phones. Note that cell phones has both a number and a provider like Verizon. With these info,you can text msg from an email account like Yahoo to any phone. We had some 200 residents signed up and built a mailing list.


When an event occurs, we send out simple msgs like “man wearing xxxx crossing yards and looking in windows of houses on ___ street at 3pm” or “suspicious GMC van, old white color, license ___ ____ trolling ____ blvd”, etc… Within seconds, such msg pops up in resident’s cell phones, and window shades begin to open and people take pictures.



This method needed no capital cost but it requires one or a few people in charge and have access to mailing list in trust worthy manner.

It shut down crime in our neighborhood only after a couple notifications. I suspect that when the housing bubble burst, our subdivision became too affordable for people who are crime-ful in their ways. Many of us noticed that crime increased since that time and each crime seemed to get bolder than the last one. It seemed to work for us. At a minimum, this is an efficient alert system. See if it works for you.

You have a PM. :)

RussP
04-05-2012, 12:44
Excellent...He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.

High Altitude
04-05-2012, 13:31
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/cnn-enhances-zimmerman-911-call-again-and-reporter-now-doubts-racial-slur-used/

Zimmerman was saying cold, not coon.

Makes perfect sense given the weather etc... and it is easy to hear the "ol" sound instead of the "oo" sound.

Warp
04-05-2012, 14:14
You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world.


I think this sums it up.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 16:12
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/cnn-enhances-zimmerman-911-call-again-and-reporter-now-doubts-racial-slur-used/

Zimmerman was saying cold, not coon.

Makes perfect sense given the weather etc... and it is easy to hear the "ol" sound instead of the "oo" sound.

Did you see the story linked after the first paragraph about the 78 year old? Is it possible attorneys for some news outlets are letting them know they can possibly be held liable for things that happen if they can be tied back to their misinformation?

I wonder what their liability, if any, would be on something like this.

.

bluemonday
04-05-2012, 16:16
Why would Martin be screaming for help while he was beating the crap out of Zimmerman? Seems more likely the man getting his head bashed was screaming for his life ....... and that man would be George Zimmerman.

I agree, that's why that article debunking the "experts" is so interesting.

Fred Hansen
04-05-2012, 16:28
I understood what he meant in principle. I must also apply it to reality. I am more willing to spend hours in court to ensure one of the robbery victims is there so those in the legal system can see there is a human being involved and not just a name in a piece of paper, than I am to risk my life only to have the crook (and his accomplices, if there are any) be out shortly to do the deed again.

The kids that burglarized our home were caught months after they stole from us. The police was able to pin 12 robberies on them, I’m sure there were more. Of all the people affected I was the only one to appear in court whenever I learned there was a hearing, or a trial or anything that meant the case (and them) was being reviewed.

The ways you speak of were better in my opinion; that still goes on to some degree in communities where people know each other. It happens within a 3 or 4 block radius where I live with people that know one another, not so much beyond that.

We cannot ignore some realities of the new ways, we may not like them, but we have little choice but to accept some of them. You are not allowed to correct a child’s behavior beyond stern words (and cautiously) if that child is not your own, if you do, your own children and grandchildren would not have a father, mother and/or grandparents to guide them in the right path and teach them what their current and future family expects of them.

You have to pick your battles, as much as anyone would want to, we can’t fix the world. We can; however, teach our children to do the right and moral thing. If you have several children than in turn have more than one we can hopefully increase the number of those that would do good versus those that do bad.

It is not that some of us elect to do nothing, it is that at times we select other less riskier routes to do what we believe is right. That goes back to: Am I willing to invest my time and energy in seeing the right thing is done? Yes. Am I willing to risk my life for it? It would depend, protection of property (mine or of others) doesn’t fall in that list. Nonetheless, I am thankful the thoughts and opinions of others differs on this and that some of you are willing to risk more to accomplish it.Fair enough. :wavey:

ATW525
04-05-2012, 16:37
What do you guys think of this critical article on the two audio experts who claim Zimmerman's voice was not a match on the 911 tape for the person yelling "help"?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/about-those-audio-forsenic-experts#comments

I'm not surprised. I had my suspicions that they were self proclaimed "experts" when I first heard about them. It's like the "expert" saying that Zimmerman was intoxicated based on the 911 call. There's no shortage of lowlifes looking to grab their 15 minutes at somebody else's expense.

Misty02
04-05-2012, 17:06
The search for probable cause in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-probable-cause-20120404,0,5746293.story


When that happens, police can rearrest the suspect, and prosecutors are free to file charges. But they must bring the case to trial within 175 days ofarrest, according to Florida rules of criminal procedure.

That ticking clock is often an incentive for prosecutors to hold off on an arrest, they said. It gives them more time to collect evidence — for example, to get ballistics tests done if a gun is involved or to have fingerprints analyzed.


Among the reasons why letting (and helping) them do their job is important. That is less than 6 months to investigate, do all the lab work, consult experts, prepare a case, the works. At times people don’t understand the full ramifications of what they ask for. It is my understanding that there is no statute of limitations on murder. Again, what is the goal of the family?

As the person waiting, I would want to get it out of the way and not have to spend decades wondering what my fate would be, that has to be the worst (I think).

.

RussP
04-05-2012, 17:27
[SIZE=3]
As the person waiting, I would want to get it out of the way and not have to spend decades wondering what my fate would be, that has to be the worst (I think).

.Not knowing how the facts will be interpreted, yeah, it sucks...

vkscott
04-05-2012, 18:20
I picked up the latest copy of People Magazine at WallyWorld tonight. I had to pass it by three times before my curiosity got the best of me. Although I haven't read the story yet, the front cover reads "American Tragedy."

Is it really? I feel regret for the parents that lost their child. I feel regret for the life Z will have (regardless of the outcome of this situation). I feel sorry for the fools that are trying to convict and crucify him through the media. I feel sick that Sharpton, Jackson, POTUS and others are playing to the emotions of many and feeding the flames that can only do harm. But an American Tragedy? That seems a little far fetched.

In my opinion, here are three real American Tragedies (not listed in any particular order).

1. Homeless (http://cflhomeless.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/how-many-children-are-homeless-in-america/) - 1.5 MILLION = the number of children in America who go to sleep without a home each year
1 in 50 = an American child’s chances of experiencing homelessness in their lifetime.

2. Hunger (http://www.childhungerendshere.com/Html/Index.html) - 16million children face hunger in America.

3. Abuse (http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics) - In 2009, approximately 3.3 million child abuse reports and allegations were made involving an estimated 6 million children.

IMHO, there are the real American Tragedies, but it doesn't appear anyone wants to rally against that.

Warp
04-05-2012, 18:25
If by "picked up" you mean "purchased", you are fueling the fire and supporting the media turning something like this into such a big deal while ignoring those other problems

jdavionic
04-05-2012, 18:55
and not have to spend decades wondering what my fate would be, that has to be the worst (I think).

.

Knowing a person that went through a home invasion with a fatal shooting of one of the suspects, I can tell you that he endured a lot of anxiety having to wait for the investigation / resolution. It's not bad enough that he had to experience the incident in the first place and take a life, but then not knowing his own fate afterward...a stress that none of us want to endure.

vkscott
04-05-2012, 19:36
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.

:agree: Amen brother

Warp
04-05-2012, 19:39
Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.


Nobody, other than you, has said anything of the sort.

jdavionic
04-05-2012, 19:42
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.

I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.

ModGlock17
04-05-2012, 19:42
Here's a shooting that had the benefit of a video.
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502&start=0

Still, not a whole lot of peace in the mind of the one who had to shoot to defend self.

vkscott
04-05-2012, 20:06
If by "picked up" you mean "purchased", you are fueling the fire and supporting the media turning something like this into such a big deal while ignoring those other problems

Yes purchased and how did you come to that assumption? Do you know me, do you know what my thoughts are, what I support and don't support, I highly doubt it. So when that high horse of yours stops trotting, get off of it. I firmly believe, based on what I have read and heard that Z was 100% justified in using lethal force. I don't believe for a minute that he expected the night to end that way, but that is something he will have to deal with for the rest of his life. My point, in case you missed it sir, is that what happened in Florida that night, while tragic, is not an American tragedy.

RussP
04-05-2012, 20:46
Folks, we've come a long way in this thread. Let's not lose the civility that got us here.

Thanks...

RussP
04-05-2012, 20:49
I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.The part in bold, what do you mean?

Misty02
04-05-2012, 20:51
Fair enough. :wavey:

Oh and Fred, I understand what you meant as well. :)

.

vkscott
04-05-2012, 20:52
Folks, we've come a long way in this thread. Let's not lose the civility that got us here.

Thanks...

Point taken, apologies extended :wavey:

jdavionic
04-05-2012, 20:54
The part in bold, what do you mean?

Since you're the "mod" and may somehow misinterpret, I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.

Fred Hansen
04-05-2012, 21:00
Oh and Fred, I understand what you meant as well. :)

.:cheers:

Misty02
04-05-2012, 21:08
The part in bold, what do you mean?

I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong they’ll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. I’m not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.

jdavionic
04-05-2012, 21:13
I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.


Exactly!

RussP
04-05-2012, 21:26
I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong they’ll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. I’m not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.Thanks, Misty...a very good expansion on the topic.

janice6
04-05-2012, 21:29
Okay, I'll bite...aware me as to how the family is responsible for "making him shoot the kid"


I was going to let this go since I was expressing sarcasm, but you seem to want to make it an arguing point.

in the interest of accuracy I'll explain it to you.

SARCASM.......

RussP
04-05-2012, 21:29
Since you're the "mod" and may somehow misinterpret,And that is why I asked the question. I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.Thank you...

jdavionic
04-05-2012, 21:39
And that is why I asked the question. Thank you...

Not sure how you could have misinterpreted it, but okay.

RussP
04-05-2012, 21:48
Not sure how you could have misinterpreted it, but okay.Where did I make a statement about your post that showed I misinterpreted what you said?

I posted a simple question asking for clarification before commenting..:cool:

jdavionic
04-05-2012, 21:50
Where did I make a statement about your post that showed I misinterpreted what you said?

I posted a simple question asking for clarification before commenting..:cool:

Of course...you're right. :cool:

Misty02
04-06-2012, 06:38
Thanks, Misty...a very good expansion on the topic.

It kind of follows my original comment that Fred commented on, which is the one jdavionic was commenting on. Fred mentioned the old ways as being better (which I think we all agree with). The only thing I would have changed in jdavionic’s comment would be “our” in lieu “their”. Whether by active participation in getting to where we are today or by our silence and allowing it to happen, we are all at fault. Teachers that attempt to correct our children’s behavior and moral compass are punished for overstepping their bounds, neighbors that do it are told to mind their business, the same with strangers that may merely offer a suggestion on curving inappropriate behavior.

When I was a kid, had I said anything other than “I’m sorry” to an adult that told me what I was doing/saying was wrong in front of my mother, she would have back-handed me into the next kingdom. Even if the adult was wrong, we couldn’t disrespect them; we had to stop doing whatever was bothering the adult and allow my mother to deal with them if they were out of line (and we couldn’t resume what we were doing unless she said it was ok), but God help us if we tried to do it ourselves.

Things have changed to the point where there is no common sense any more. A parent would be arrested, charged and convicted of a felony for spanking a child on the tush and then have their children taken away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU We should have form protests around the country when this happened and demanded the government back off, but we didn’t. Our inaction will allow the courts to do this again and make parents think twice when attempting to discipline their children; the same ones we later complain are preying on society because they are out of control.


.

RussP
04-06-2012, 06:54
For context, here is the whole conversation...I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

.He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.The part in bold, what do you mean?I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.
We want to live your life a certain way


We're not immune to how others live theirs


We're not immune to how the government runs theirs and ours.

That's very good and very true.I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong they’ll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. I’m not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.
Society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in


We can’t divorce ourselves from it


We are not immune to its side effects.



A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims.


A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being.


A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.



At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong



they’ll be left to hang alone,


they and their families will be destroyed.


jdavionic, Misty, these are facts, not just opinions, real facts about where we are, that everyone, not just everyone who carries, but really everyone can use in deciding what role they individually and collectively will play in today's society.

That, jdavionic, is why I asked the question.

Southswede
04-06-2012, 07:57
It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!

.

Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?

Misty02
04-06-2012, 08:28
Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?

That is a good question. I have spent as much time training with my firearm, reading the statutes, and some case law as I have spent mentally and emotionally preparing myself for an event I pray never takes place. That preparation has taken me beyond the use and legalities of weapons and into prevention, avoidance and de-escalation of possible conflicts to reduce the possibility of ever needing to use my firearm.

Each of us has to determine where that line is. As an example, Bren and I have drawn that line in different places. I don’t believe either of us is wrong or right. Each of us has taken into consideration our level of experience and various skills to determine where our breaking point is. I have little doubt that his hand to hand (H2H) skills allow him to stand his ground successfully in many areas where the use of a firearm is neither legal nor appropriate. I, on the other hand, am a middle aged woman with little to no experience in H2H; obviously I’m going to do everything in my power to avoid such situations.

I believe it is important to objectively know yourself, your capabilities, your skill level and then proceed accordingly. I believe that is an area where Zimmerman failed. One thing is to address trouble that comes to you the best way you can because you can’t escape it, quite another to follow a person that you know nothing about. He didn’t know if Martin was a criminal in the prowl, if he was armed, what his H2H skill level was or if he was alone. He was in over his head and didn’t take a second to think of the consequences. He may have had good intentions in keeping an eye on Martin until police arrived but it is obvious his plan didn’t work out quite as he thought. He either overestimated himself or underestimated his opponent, either could be deadly.

May I turn the question back to you? Based on your skills, physical condition and knowledge, do you believe you have the capability to successfully follow someone because there have been break-ins in your neighborhood and you wish to prevent another? Would the property of your neighbor, or yours, be worth the risk? Can you handle what would likely come your way? The answer for you may be yes. For me is no, and sadly, there are likely more people on my side of the fence than on the opposite one.


.

steveksux
04-06-2012, 08:34
Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy

Misty02
04-06-2012, 08:44
If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy

May I add: something you only need to worry about if you survive the encounter.

.

steveksux
04-06-2012, 09:08
May I add: something you only need to worry about if you survive the encounter.

.Then you shot in defense of life, not property... :supergrin:

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy

Misty02
04-06-2012, 09:44
Then you shot in defense of life, not property... :supergrin:

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy

Got ya!!! :thumbsup:

I'm quite dense at times. :embarassed:

.

vkscott
04-06-2012, 10:18
It kind of follows my original comment that Fred commented on, which is the one jdavionic was commenting on. Fred mentioned the old ways as being better (which I think we all agree with). The only thing I would have changed in jdavionic’s comment would be “our” in lieu “their”. Whether by active participation in getting to where we are today or by our silence and allowing it to happen, we are all at fault. Teachers that attempt to correct our children’s behavior and moral compass are punished for overstepping their bounds, neighbors that do it are told to mind their business, the same with strangers that may merely offer a suggestion on curving inappropriate behavior.

When I was a kid, had I said anything other than “I’m sorry” to an adult that told me what I was doing/saying was wrong in front of my mother, she would have back-handed me into the next kingdom. Even if the adult was wrong, we couldn’t disrespect them; we had to stop doing whatever was bothering the adult and allow my mother to deal with them if they were out of line (and we couldn’t resume what we were doing unless she said it was ok), but God help us if we tried to do it ourselves.

Things have changed to the point where there is no common sense any more. A parent would be arrested, charged and convicted of a felony for spanking a child on the tush and then have their children taken away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU) We should have form protests around the country when this happened and demanded the government back off, but we didn’t. Our inaction will allow the courts to do this again and make parents think twice when attempting to discipline their children; the same ones we later complain are preying on society because they are out of control.


.

Good thing I watched the video before I posted. I was going to post that in TX, the penal code section 9.61 states:

§ 9.61. PARENT-CHILD. (a) The use of force, but not
deadly force, against a child younger than 18 years is justified:
(1) if the actor is the child's parent or stepparent or
is acting in loco parentis to the child; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is necessary to discipline the child or to
safeguard or promote his welfare.
(b) For purposes of this section, "in loco parentis"
includes grandparent and guardian, any person acting by, through,
or under the direction of a court with jurisdiction over the child,
and anyone who has express or implied consent of the parent or
parents.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


But the judge was out of Corpus Christi, TX. I wonder if there was more to the evidence than the media released (that would never happen, would it :whistling:). BTW, I spank my kids when they need it.

SCmasterblaster
04-06-2012, 10:49
52 pages - has everything been discussed?

ModGlock17
04-06-2012, 10:57
52 pages - has everything been discussed?

yes, but we have to start over every time new evidence comes out....

:supergrin:

Misty02
04-06-2012, 11:13
Good thing I watched the video before I posted. I was going to post that in TX, the penal code section 9.61 states:

§ 9.61. PARENT-CHILD. (a) The use of force, but not
deadly force, against a child younger than 18 years is justified:
(1) if the actor is the child's parent or stepparent or
is acting in loco parentis to the child; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is necessary to discipline the child or to
safeguard or promote his welfare.
(b) For purposes of this section, "in loco parentis"
includes grandparent and guardian, any person acting by, through,
or under the direction of a court with jurisdiction over the child,
and anyone who has express or implied consent of the parent or
parents.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


But the judge was out of Corpus Christi, TX. I wonder if there was more to the evidence than the media released (that would never happen, would it :whistling:). BTW, I spank my kids when they need it.


That is always a possibility; however, the judge’s own comment alone is all telling. He’s talking about a spanking, not child abuse, and continues to mention that is the way it was done before but you don’t go around spanking kids today. It wasn’t the media misquoting him, it was his own statement

.

Southswede
04-06-2012, 12:34
If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy

"Steve" don't put the cart before the horse. Maybe I should have put it this way: does a criminal think my stuff is worth dying for?

Southswede
04-06-2012, 12:43
[FONT=Verdana]May I turn the question back to you? Based on your skills, physical condition and knowledge, do you believe you have the capability to successfully follow someone because there have been break-ins in your neighborhood and you wish to prevent another? Would the property of your neighbor, or yours, be worth the risk? Can you handle what would likely come your way? The answer for you may be yes. For me is no, and sadly, there are likely more people on my side of the fence than on the opposite one.


.


My answer is of course yes. It was an easy answer for me to make.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Southswede
04-06-2012, 12:45
Then you shot in defense of life, not property... :supergrin:

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy

And this is what it comes down to Randy.

steveksux
04-06-2012, 14:47
"Steve" don't put the cart before the horse. Maybe I should have put it this way: does a criminal think my stuff is worth dying for?I got exactly what you meant. How do you figure my reply doesn't apply in that case too?

Randy

Misty02
04-06-2012, 15:01
My answer is of course yes. It was an easy answer for me to make.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

I understand what you mean. Just do your best to make sure that in your endeavor to do so, you have in fact observed evil being done.

:wavey:

Misty02
04-06-2012, 15:22
Denials, details continue to bubble up in Trayvon Martin shooting case
[/URL]

[URL]http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/02/2728440/denials-details-continue-to-bubble.html#morer (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/02/2728440/denials-details-continue-to-bubble.html#morer#storylink=cpy)

The former prosecutor assigned to the Trayvon Martin case participated in a “suspicious” meeting with police on the night of the disputed shooting, Martin’s family alleged on Monday.

.

cgjane
04-06-2012, 15:40
My answer is of course yes. It was an easy answer for me to make.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

How about letting the professionals handle it? Like the Police...

jdavionic
04-06-2012, 17:00
Denials, details continue to bubble up in Trayvon Martin shooting case


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/02/2728440/denials-details-continue-to-bubble.html#morer

The former prosecutor assigned to the Trayvon Martin case participated in a “suspicious” meeting with police on the night of the disputed shooting, Martin’s family alleged on Monday.

.

Interesting bias in reporting. The headline could have been "More alleged false accusations pertaining to the Trayvon Martin Case"

writwing
04-06-2012, 17:17
I picked up the latest copy of People Magazine at WallyWorld tonight. I had to pass it by three times before my curiosity got the best of me. Although I haven't read the story yet, the front cover reads "American Tragedy."



Yeah I saw that issue checking out today. It should TM as a very young teen and NOT how he looks on his website.

I wouldnt use people magazine to wipe my *****.

Warp
04-06-2012, 19:32
nvm, would delete if we could do that

Southswede
04-06-2012, 20:14
I got exactly what you meant. How do you figure my reply doesn't apply in that case too?

Randy


Just making sure we are on the same page. Have to not only survive the incident, but the aftermath as well.

Southswede
04-06-2012, 20:17
How about letting the professionals handle it? Like the Police...

Don't the police actively encourage neighborhood watch programs? Don't the police ask for citizen involvement with community based policing and crime watch programs?

Warp
04-06-2012, 20:20
Don't the police actively encourage neighborhood watch programs? Don't the police ask for citizen involvement with community based policing and crime watch programs?

They do around here, yes. They need eyes and ears. Nobody knows what is ordinary or abnormal for a neighborhood better than the residents.

vkscott
04-06-2012, 22:43
That is always a possibility; however, the judge’s own comment alone is all telling. He’s talking about a spanking, not child abuse, and continues to mention that is the way it was done before but you don’t go around spanking kids today. It wasn’t the media misquoting him, it was his own statement

.

I'm just saying that the judge is full of crap. I wonder where she obtained counsel and why would the let her plead guilty for spanking her child. IMO, the judge should have been able to apply the penal code to this situation. OTOH, we don't know the entire story, perhaps there was a history of CPS calls. But just hearing the short video, its frightening.

Misty02
04-07-2012, 05:28
I'm just saying that the judge is full of crap. I wonder where she obtained counsel and why would the let her plead guilty for spanking her child. IMO, the judge should have been able to apply the penal code to this situation. OTOH, we don't know the entire story, perhaps there was a history of CPS calls. But just hearing the short video, its frightening.

You are correct. It appears there was also an ongoing feud between her and her MIL, no clue as to who was right on that one, or even if either was. There is always more to the story than what it becomes known by the general public. My concern was with the actual statements made by the judge, not having more information to put it in context, I had no choice but to allow his words to stay on its own and it was less than comforting.

.

Misty02
04-08-2012, 09:11
Police Gave George Zimmerman Voice Stress Test

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406

George Zimmerman's defense team is growing, suggesting that he's planning for a grand jury indictment and a subsequent criminal trial. Interestingly, his new attorney has begun releasing some previously unknown facts.

.

Peace Warrior
04-08-2012, 11:26
NBC news, or at this point, NoBody Cares news, is back stepping and apologizing for the "mistake" that was made by a producer for skillfully, carefully, and intentionally editing Z's 911 call to make Z sound guilty as charged by sharpton.

They advise it was a mistake. Well, that just fixes everything for Z huh?

Sam Spade
04-08-2012, 12:20
Let's recap:

CNN falsely attributed a racial slur to Zimmerman; on enhancement, their own folk say that the word was actually "cold".

ABC falsely stated that Zimmerman suffered no injury; on enhancement their own video shows gashes on the back of his head, just like his report.

The NYT (and the Atlantic, and the Village Voice, and ABC, and CBS and the Miami Herald...) falsely reported on both Zimmerman and Martin's sizes, making it appear that Z was much heavier than M.

And NBC actually willfully altered evidence of the situation, using creative editing to change what Zimmerman said.


I'm not much into this particular thread, but I'd appreciate it if people would remember these events and cut me (and others) some slack when I/we suggest waiting for investigations to be completed.

Misty02
04-08-2012, 12:26
Let's recap:

CNN falsely attributed a racial slur to Zimmerman; on enhancement, their own folk say that the word was actually "cold".

ABC falsely stated that Zimmerman suffered no injury; on enhancement their own video shows gashes on the back of his head, just like his report.

The NYT (and the Atlantic, and the Village Voice, and ABC, and CBS and the Miami Herald...) falsely reported on both Zimmerman and Martin's sizes, making it appear that Z was much heavier than M.

And NBC actually willfully altered evidence of the situation, using creative editing to change what Zimmerman said.


I'm not much into this particular thread, but I'd appreciate it if people would remember these events and cut me (and others) some slack when I/we suggest waiting for investigations to be completed.


... and I'm hoping this one is a lie too....

Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are "Prepared" For Post-Trayvon Martin Violence

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php)


.

Warp
04-08-2012, 12:32
... and I'm hoping this one is a lie too....

Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are "Prepared" For Post-Trayvon Martin Violence

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php)


.

Excerpt:

""Whenever there is one of these racially charged events, Al Sharpton goes wherever blacks need him," Schoep said. "We do similar things. We are a white civil rights organization."

He went to great lengths to contrast his organization with the New Black Panther Party, who he blamed for scaring local whites and spurring the need for NSM patrols. Schoep admits that the NSM and the Black Panthers are actually alike in that they are both racial separatists. But he sees a double-standard in the government's treatment of the two groups.

"The Black Panthers have been offering bounties and all that," he says. "But if we called for a bounty on someone's head, I guarantee we'd be locked up as quick as I could walk out of my house.""

Peace Warrior
04-08-2012, 12:39
Let's recap:

CNN falsely attributed a racial slur to Zimmerman; on enhancement, their own folk say that the word was actually "cold". ...
Sounded like punk to me, but that's just it actually, no one can say with 100% certainty.
...ABC falsely stated that Zimmerman suffered no injury; on enhancement their own video shows gashes on the back of his head, just like his report. ...
Yes, and an NBC producer carefully, calculatingly, and purposely edited the recording, which was played on air repeatedly to possibly millions of people, to make Z "sound/appear" guilty of a crime.
...The NYT (and the Atlantic, and the Village Voice, and ABC, and CBS and the Miami Herald...) falsely reported on both Zimmerman and Martin's sizes, making it appear that Z was much heavier than M. ...

Thousands of us were saying the networks were in absolute and willful collusion on this whole Z vs. M event. It appeasr we were all correct at this point.
...And NBC actually willfully altered evidence of the situation, using creative editing to change what Zimmerman said. ...
Carefully, calculatingly, and purposely did so. Their so-called apology be damned. It's not an apology, it is damage control due to millions finally realizing they have been creating specific ideas in the minds of people for decades, but they have not and are NOT reporting the news anymore.
...I'm not much into this particular thread, but I'd appreciate it if people would remember these events and cut me (and others) some slack when I/we suggest waiting for investigations to be completed.
You along with MILLIONS of others, and especially those of us in Florida who try to respect the rule of law, the LEOs, and the judicial system.

Many thousands of Officers here uphold and agree with Florida's stand your ground law for civilians.

Peace Warrior
04-08-2012, 12:43
... and I'm hoping this one is a lie too....

Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are "Prepared" For Post-Trayvon Martin Violence

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/heavily_armed_neo-nazis_patrol.php)


.
Hegel's Dialectic (i.e., thesis, antithesis, and finally synthesis)

MtnBiker
04-08-2012, 17:51
Sanford, FL is no stranger to black/white controversy. There's a story of Harry Moore who was a Black activist registering so many blacks to vote. Moore and his wife died from their injuries when their house was fire-bombed around Xmas 1951. No one was ever arrested. And then there are stories of black business owners got stopped by police for no particular reason, etc. And there are stories of people just disappeared after conflicts with whites. All of these are backdrop to the current event, as it may explain how blacks view this event in the context of history.

perhaps if you are bored, you may find some of them made way to the internet.

No excuse. Just interesting backdrop!

In this 21st century, I am quite confident that the "feelings" are still alive, post MLK. It doesn't seem as blatant as in the old days, but it simmers.
I lived in Sanford, Fl for 10 years in the mid 80’s through mid-90’s. I didn’t see the bigotry you mention above. I don’t know how things were in 1951, but a lot has changed in Sanford and the rest of the world in the 60 years that have ensued.
In the 80’s Sanford changed from a largely agricultural area to one that fostered new bedroom communities for the people who work in the Orlando area. A lot of these people came from places other than Sanford. Many of the transplants were better educated and had more diverse views than the locals. As the new population grew and the existing population waned or moved away; the character of Sanford changed. I can’t tell you how things were 50 years ago, but I didn’t see evidence of Klan participation.
Those central FL communities have changed a lot since the mid-20th century. In the case of the Orlando area, it was fueled largely by Disney opening the Reedy Creek Management area (Disney World) and some bad winters that were hard on the local citrus groves. As a result a lot of agricultural land became new residences.

People's attitudes and behaviors in Sanford today have little to do with whatever the town's history was from 3 generations ago.

TBO
04-08-2012, 19:00
Area[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford,_Florida#cite_note-GR1-0) • City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_municipalities_in_Florida) 26.5 sq mi (69 km2)
• Land 23.0 sq mi (60 km2)
• Water 3.5 sq mi (9 km2)

Population (2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_Census))[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford,_Florida#cite_note-GR2-2)
• City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_municipalities_in_Florida) 53,570
• Density 2,333.4/sq mi (900.9/km2)
• Urban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_area) 1,377,342 (35th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas))
• Metro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_area) 2,134,411 (26th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas))

Peace Warrior
04-08-2012, 19:31
If Zimmerman is judged to be legal, he should file a civil suit against the family for causing him stress and making him shoot the kid
I disagree, the family should be given a 'pass' on this whole thing. Family, IMHO, has a right to be emtionally led in such a time as this; however, the actions of the nbpp, al sharpton, j. jackson and the media should be held severely accountable. For instance, were it not for the audio editing of Z's 911 by NBC, many people may have been allowed to think about the facts of the case instead of the highly edited audio of a phone call that made Z sound as if he were glad the event occurred.

I hope in all of this NBC is sued to the hilt due to their sensationalized and false reporting that was done so ONLY to "stir the pot." They have no excuse. they have no "out." they are advising they "apologize," but rather than an apology, they are merely trying to mitigate the damage from being found out so quickly after airing the highly edited and perverted audio from the 911 call.

NBC, and the others, are not even trying to report news, they are hell bent on CREATING news that serves their or their paycheck issuers' agenda.

As well, if there are any more acts of vandalism, then al sharpton should be held accountable financially for the damages. And so on and so forth.

Misty02
04-09-2012, 04:08
I disagree, the family should be given a 'pass' on this whole thing. Family, IMHO, has a right to be emtionally led in such a time as this; however, the actions of the nbpp, al sharpton, j. jackson and the media should be held severely accountable. For instance, were it not for the audio editing of Z's 911 by NBC, many people may have been allowed to think about the facts of the case instead of the highly edited audio of a phone call that made Z sound as if he were glad the event occurred.

I hope in all of this NBC is sued to the hilt due to their sensationalized and false reporting that was done so ONLY to "stir the pot." They have no excuse. they have no "out." they are advising they "apologize," but rather than an apology, they are merely trying to mitigate the damage from being found out so quickly after airing the highly edited and perverted audio from the 911 call.

NBC, and the others, are not even trying to report news, they are hell bent on CREATING news that serves their or their paycheck issuers' agenda.

As well, if there are any more acts of vandalism, then al sharpton should be held accountable financially for the damages. And so on and so forth.

I’m in agreement with your opinion.

.

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 07:04
Interesting article by Gabe Suarez on this story -
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/04/commentary-the-zimmerman-martin-shooting.html

Bren
04-09-2012, 07:40
Interesting article by Gabe Suarez on this story -
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/04/commentary-the-zimmerman-martin-shooting.html

Not really worth reading. He did follow the trend of ignoring that Zimmerman was actually involved in neighboorhood watch and addressing it as if he was just some busybody driving down the street who decided to follow a random pedestrian. I don't look to Suarez for useful advice.

Gallium
04-09-2012, 08:01
Not really worth reading. He did follow the trend of ignoring that Zimmerman was actually involved in neighborhood watch and addressing it as if he was just some busybody driving down the street who decided to follow a random pedestrian. I don't look to Suarez for useful advice.

I disagree with your synopsis.

Nabe watch does not grant police status to follow, it never did, and it probably never will. The foundation of NW is "observe and report".

His advice to seek distance from disorder is reasonable, and rational, when juxtaposed with the mentality of the majority of folks who carry concealed or openly (excluding law enforcement).

His advice on noting the difference between two extremes is also timely and on point.

He acknowledges that IF Zimmerman was getting his ass handed to him, use of deadly force is justified. (But that Zimmerman created those circumstances)

He also very succinctly discusses the chasm between perception and reality of the "justice system", citing another well known case.

I may not personally like someone, or even have very little respect for them, or they may even be a child molester/rapist/ex-convict...but that does not preclude me from learning something from them.

There is currently no word in the English language to describe someone who thinks they can't learn things from people seemingly inferior to them, and/or folks who refuse to accept another's opinion because of that other person's past deeds.

We already have Jambog and Zumbo.

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 08:06
I disagree with your synopsis.

Nabe watch does not grant police status to follow, it never did, and it probably never will. The foundation of NW is "observe and report".

His advice to seek distance from disorder is reasonable, and rational, when juxtaposed with the mentality of the majority of folks who carry concealed or openly (excluding law enforcement).

His advice on noting the difference between two extremes is also timely and on point.

He acknowledges that IF Zimmerman was getting his ass handed to him, use of deadly force is justified. (But that Zimmerman created those circumstances)

He also very succinctly discusses the chasm between perception and reality of the "justice system", citing another well known case.

I may not personally like someone, or even have very little respect for them, or they may even be a child molester/rapist/ex-convict...but that does not preclude me from learning something from them.

There is currently no word in the English language to describe someone who thinks they can't learn things from people seemingly inferior to them, and/or folks who refuse to accept another's opinion because of that other person's past deeds.

We already have Jambog and Zumbo.

This is more consistent with my takeaway from the article. I am not fan of Gabe's, but I did find that he offered some valuable info.

4Rules
04-09-2012, 08:08
I like Suarez' book The Tactical Advantage, but come on.

RussP
04-09-2012, 08:56
Interesting article by Gabe Suarez on this story -
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/04/commentary-the-zimmerman-martin-shooting.htmlNot really worth reading. He did follow the trend of ignoring that Zimmerman was actually involved in neighboorhood watch and addressing it as if he was just some busybody driving down the street who decided to follow a random pedestrian. I don't look to Suarez for useful advice.Sure it's worth reading, Bren.

If for no other reason than to see that he advocates his position that as soon as he saw the media manipulation (my word) of the story, "before anything else is done to him," Zimmerman should have opted for a nice apartment in Bolivia instead of working through the justice system.

Okay, okay... I know that absent charges, thus travel restrictions, Zimmerman is free to go wherever he wants. But, the phrase in quotes, "before anything else is done to him," sure sounds like he is advocating fleeing to avoid prosecution.

CitizenOfDreams
04-09-2012, 09:16
The only good thing about this Martin-Zimmerman mess is that it finally pushed Casey Anthony off the front pages.

expatman
04-09-2012, 10:02
Just in on CNN Live.....................NO GRAND JURY in Zimmerman-Martin case!

CitizenOfDreams
04-09-2012, 10:20
Just in on CNN Live.....................NO GRAND JURY in Zimmerman-Martin case!

Does that mean the case will be dismissed, or charges will be filed?:dunno:

RussP
04-09-2012, 11:05
Just in on CNN Live.....................NO GRAND JURY in Zimmerman-Martin case!

Does that mean the case will be dismissed, or charges will be filed?:dunno:Here's the link to the story: Prosecutor won't use grand jury in Trayvon Martin shooting case (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/09/us/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 11:09
Sure it's worth reading, Bren.

If for no other reason than to see that he advocates his position that as soon as he saw the media manipulation (my word) of the story, "before anything else is done to him," Zimmerman should have opted for a nice apartment in Bolivia instead of working through the justice system.

Okay, okay... I know that absent charges, thus travel restrictions, Zimmerman is free to go wherever he wants. But, the phrase in quotes, "before anything else is done to him," sure sounds like he is advocating fleeing to avoid prosecution.

Having read other articles by him, I doubt seriously he is advocating fleeing the country. IMO, he was exaggerating to make a point - lay low and get out of the local limelight.

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 11:17
He also very succinctly discusses the chasm between perception and reality of the "justice system", citing another well known case.

I found this part to very interesting as well. It's second time in recent weeks that I've read someone asserting that position. The other time was in this forum.

Still not sure I'm convinced that prosecutors are going to push for indictments and inevitably convictions based on political climate. My exposure is relatively limited to hearing GJ testimony in about 500-600 cases in one county in the country. In that, I saw a DA's office that was solely interested in pursuing cases that were based on evidence and ones where they believed a crime was committed. A DA or ADA that routinely takes cases to trial where they inevitably get thrown out or the defendants are routinely found not guilty would have a short-lived career in my county.

However, just like we have judges that operate from their own personal agendas, I'm sure there are parts of the country where the DA's office does the same.

RussP
04-09-2012, 12:25
Having read other articles by him, I doubt seriously he is advocating fleeing the country. IMO, he was exaggerating to make a point - lay low and get out of the local limelight.Really? "As soon as he saw the media's intent and “flow of story”, before anything else is done to him, he should have been pulling a Russell Crow in "The Next Three Days". A nice apartment in Bolivia is far better than what I think will be his future."Really?

Mayhem like Me
04-09-2012, 12:39
Gabe was convicted of defrauding workmans comp.

I DO NOT value his opinion in any legal matters.



:wavey:

RussP
04-09-2012, 12:55
Having read other articles by him, I doubt seriously ...Could you, would you please provide links to those articles?

Thanks...

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 13:16
Could you, would you please provide links to those articles?

Thanks...

Could I?...possibly. Would I?...no. I get them as emails from his website...almost daily. I don't save them. He has an archive section and you could dig on that if you desire.

I said it was my opinion, based on reading articles from him the past. If you disagree, fine. If others are looking for me to defend the guy on other issues, look elsewhere. I already said that I'm not a fan of Gabe's.

Any additional discussion on him would probably be best served with separate thread. I posted what I felt was relevant to the thread. I believe that he raises some points that are interesting. I don't think that I've violated any rules in doing so. Russ, I'm not going down the path that I discussed with you separately. I cannot ignore a moderator, but I also don't feel that I have to entertain bias attacks either.

TBO
04-09-2012, 13:27
Gabe was convicted of defrauding workmans comp.

I DO NOT value his opinion in any legal matters.



:wavey:
Ethics/Integrity are just words to some.

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 13:32
Ethics/Integrity are just words to some.

I liked this wording better...
I may not personally like someone, or even have very little respect for them, or they may even be a child molester/rapist/ex-convict...but that does not preclude me from learning something from them.

There is currently no word in the English language to describe someone who thinks they can't learn things from people seemingly inferior to them, and/or folks who refuse to accept another's opinion because of that other person's past deeds.

We already have Jambog and Zumbo.

RussP
04-09-2012, 13:50
Could I?...possibly. Would I?...no. I get them as emails from his website...almost daily. I don't save them. He has an archive section and you could dig on that if you desire.

I said it was my opinion, based on reading articles from him the past. If you disagree, fine.So you really do not have anything other than a general feeling that he didn't mean what he wrote...okay. I thought perhaps you had specifics on which you based your opinion. No, I have no desire to read through his archives. His statement was very clear to me.Any additional discussion on him would probably be best served with separate thread.Very true...I posted what I felt was relevant to the thread. I believe that he raises some points that are interesting.He does make some good points. I don't think that I've violated any rules in doing so. Who said you violated any rules?

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 13:59
Who said you violated any rules?

Did I say that someone had accused me of violating rules? No. It was a statement that was relevant to the other context in the paragraph.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

jack76590
04-09-2012, 14:23
Not really worth reading. He did follow the trend of ignoring that Zimmerman was actually involved in neighboorhood watch and addressing it as if he was just some busybody driving down the street who decided to follow a random pedestrian. I don't look to Suarez for useful advice.

As a lawyer, do you believe the court will view Zimmerman differently than "some busybody driving down the street," because of his association with the neighborhood watch?

PEC-Memphis
04-09-2012, 14:47
Nabe watch does not grant police status to follow, it never did, and it probably never will. The foundation of NW is "observe and report".

Does it take "police status" to (legally) follow?

If so, can you provide the relevant code/law?

So if you are neighborhood watch, you must observe and report only from a fixed location?

I'm asking - I don't know the applicable law in Florida.

What Martin did doesn't seem to fit the generally accepted criteria for criminal menace or criminal harassment.

Peace Warrior
04-09-2012, 15:00
Does that mean the case will be dismissed, or charges will be filed?:dunno:
It's typically a plus for a possible defendant, but it's completely meaningless as far as either being arrested and charges brought or not being arrested and no charges made.

Peace Warrior
04-09-2012, 15:10
Interesting article by Gabe Suarez on this story -
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/04/commentary-the-zimmerman-martin-shooting.html
Stopped reading here...

Like everything, no absolute is right since the world is not made up of absolutes.
(http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/04/commentary-the-zimmerman-martin-shooting.html)
I wonder if gabe is absolutely sure there are no absolutes. What a maroon. :bugsbunnyfacehere:

Peace Warrior
04-09-2012, 15:22
I’m in agreement with your opinion.

.
Great minds think alike. :supergrin: (Or, sometimes a blind hog like myself finds an apple core 'ever now and again. :whistling:)

Gallium
04-09-2012, 16:20
[/COLOR]

I liked this wording better...

Jdavionic,

I would provide a link to a thread where a GTer appears to endorse violating an employer's direct mandate against conceal carrying.

That thread seemed to have disappeared. :headscratch:

Same GTer literally harangues others and bandies about phrases on ethics and integrity in threads here in CI if/when the topic of carrying (LAWFULLY) where the owner/establishment of the venue requests there be no weapons on their premises.

How is this relevant to this thread? Gabe Suarez's name has been interjected into this thread, and we have been discussing his article related to the shooting, and the topic of Gabe's ethics and integrity has been raised. There have been broader, more general statements made with regards to ethics and integrity.

Yes, it is important to have some understanding and knowledge of the background of folks who issue statements from a soapbox. I am aware of Suarez's history, and as I most eloquently (:cool:) stated before, there is something wise men can learn, even from "fools"....> I have never trained with/alongside him, and I probably will never voluntarily, knowingly chose to do so.


<...Likewise, when folks here harp on the topic of ethics and integrity, their own words and/or positions should similarly fall under the bright lights of public scrutiny.

We all carry some degree of hypocrisy within our hearts, and with our words and actions. There is no man that can maintain a claim of having "100% ethics or integrity". Both of these things do have some degree of fluidity. The wise person accepts and acknowledges this.

Respectfully,
Gallium.

jdavionic
04-09-2012, 16:30
Jdavionic,

I would provide a link to a thread where a GTer appears to endorse violating an employer's direct mandate against conceal carrying.

That thread seemed to have disappeared. :headscratch:

Same GTer literally harangues others and bandies about phrases on ethics and integrity in threads here in CI if/when the topic of carrying (LAWFULLY) where the owner/establishment of the venue requests there be no weapons on their premises.

How is this relevant to this thread? Gabe Suarez's name has been interjected into this thread, and we have been discussing his article related to the shooting, and the topic of Gabe's ethics and integrity has been raised. There have been broader, more general statements made with regards to ethics and integrity.

Yes, it is important to have some understanding and knowledge of the background of folks who issue statements from a soapbox. I am aware of Suarez's history, and as I most eloquently (:cool:) stated before, there is something wise men can learn, even from "fools"....> I have never trained with/alongside him, and I probably will never voluntarily, knowingly chose to do so.


<...Likewise, when folks here harp on the topic of ethics and integrity, their own words and/or positions should similarly fall under the bright lights of public scrutiny.

We all carry some degree of hypocrisy within our hearts, and with our words and actions. There is no man that can maintain a claim of having "100% ethics or integrity". Both of these things do have some degree of fluidity. The wise person accepts and acknowledges this.

Respectfully,
Gallium.

I'm not familiar with the other threads mentioned. However I agree with your main point...and well said. I found his commentary on the judicial system to be interesting, which I am eagerly awaiting to see the response to a question that someone else that posed in a reply.

I think his prediction is interesting as well. It will be interesting to see the accuracy in his predictions. Guilt or innocence is not a factor in his estimate of the outcome.

Gallium
04-09-2012, 17:04
Does it take "police status" to (legally) follow?

If so, can you provide the relevant code/law?

So if you are neighborhood watch, you must observe and report only from a fixed location?

I'm asking - I don't know the applicable law in Florida.

What Martin did doesn't seem to fit the generally accepted criteria for criminal menace or criminal harassment.

In my state, it is a criminal offense to "follow" someone if you are not a law enforcement officer, a state licensed private investigator, an on duty security (or peace) officer, or as so directed by any LE or the courts. They may also be exclusions carved out for other .gov (state/local) entities.

What is the law in Florida? I don't know (actually don't know, and don't care).

Specifically as it applies to neighborhood watches, within the United States they are STRONGLY DISCOURAGED from "following.

I assume you are aware of the speculation that lawyers representing Martin's estate are almost certain to go after the deep(er) pockets of the neighborhood watch of that secluded community.

Having explained that, you can see the dichotomy between what you asked and what I was talking about. My comments you quoted are directly related to neighborhood watches, and the liability police departments and the actual watches wish to isolate themselves from.

You were asking about code, and/or law.

-G

East River Guide
04-09-2012, 19:44
In my state, it is a criminal offense to "follow" someone if you are not a law enforcement officer, a state licensed private investigator, an on duty security (or peace) officer, or as so directed by any LE or the courts.



Really? What state is that?

Mayhem like Me
04-10-2012, 07:33
Really? What state is that?

We have that law in GA as well STALKING,..

however if it is done with a lawfull purpose it is an affirmative defense so I would say that just following someone that stole you car or is tresspassing or you suspect of a crime would not be prosecutable..
It is still a free country.

whoflungdo
04-10-2012, 07:42
In my state, it is a criminal offense to "follow" someone if you are not a law enforcement officer, a state licensed private investigator, an on duty security (or peace) officer, or as so directed by any LE or the courts. They may also be exclusions carved out for other .gov (state/local) entities.

What is the law in Florida? I don't know (actually don't know, and don't care).

Specifically as it applies to neighborhood watches, within the United States they are STRONGLY DISCOURAGED from "following.

I assume you are aware of the speculation that lawyers representing Martin's estate are almost certain to go after the deep(er) pockets of the neighborhood watch of that secluded community.

Having explained that, you can see the dichotomy between what you asked and what I was talking about. My comments you quoted are directly related to neighborhood watches, and the liability police departments and the actual watches wish to isolate themselves from.

You were asking about code, and/or law.

-G

And that shows you what they are really after rather than "Justice"...

PEC-Memphis
04-10-2012, 10:27
We have that law in GA as well STALKING,..

Generally, state laws in the US have laws refereed to "criminal harassment" or "criminal menace" rather than the term "stalking".

Generally, the behavior must give you good reason to fear for personal safety and it must have no legitimate purpose. Generally, the behavior must happen not just once but repeatedly. However, where the behavior is overtly threatening, a single incident may be considered criminal harassment.

Zimmerman's behavior doesn't seem to fit the commonly accepted criteria for "stalking", "criminal harassment" or "criminal menace".

In my state, it is a criminal offense to "follow" someone if you are not a law enforcement officer, a state licensed private investigator, an on duty security (or peace) officer, or as so directed by any LE or the courts. They may also be exclusions carved out for other .gov (state/local) entities.

For your state, what is the code reference?

What is the law in Florida? I don't know (actually don't know, and don't care).

Well it seems that Florida law is what is applicable, so if you are participating in the discussion, maybe you should care.

Here it is:

Fla. Stat. § 784.048. Stalking; definitions; penalties. (2008)

(1) As used in this section, the term:

(a) "Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.

(b) "Course of conduct" means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct." Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.

(c) "Credible threat" means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.

(d) "Cyberstalk" means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose.

(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person's child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(4) Any person who, after an injunction for protection against repeat violence, sexual violence, or dating violence pursuant to s. 784.046, or an injunction for protection against domestic violence pursuant to s. 741.30, or after any other court-imposed prohibition of conduct toward the subject person or that person's property, knowingly, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(5) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks a minor under 16 years of age commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(6) Any law enforcement officer may arrest, without a warrant, any person he or she has probable cause to believe has violated the provisions of this section.

(7) Any person who, after having been sentenced for a violation of s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) and prohibited from contacting the victim of the offense under s. 921.244, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks the victim commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(8) The punishment imposed under this section shall run consecutive to any former sentence imposed for a conviction for any offense under s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5).

It doesn't appear that Zimmerman's actions would fall under "stalking" under Florida law.

Gallium
04-10-2012, 11:02
...

Zimmerman's behavior doesn't seem to fit the commonly accepted criteria for "stalking", "criminal harassment" or "criminal menace".

...

Well it seems that Florida law is what is applicable, so if you are participating in the discussion, maybe you should care....


It doesn't appear that Zimmerman's actions would fall under "stalking" under Florida law.


Again, my statements were in reference to what is broadly acceptable behavior within the USA. Neighborhood watch folks are more often than not advised to not "follow".

When I want to discuss applicable law to this situation, I'll be sure to bring it up, or comment on those aspects of the dialogue, but since I don't - :wavey: , and my apologies for not realizing what the constraints and limitations on the discussion were.

-G

vkscott
04-10-2012, 14:29
This might have already been posted,http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/tyrone-woodfork-charged-in-home-invasion-elderly-murder if so, I apologize. If not, why isn't anyone saying anything about this tragic event? So if POTUS had another son would he look like Tyrone Woodfork? Why isn't the ZPOTUS making comments about having to thoroughly investigate this homicide. This is just awful. But maybe he thinks, what the hell, another 2 dead.

Bruce M
04-10-2012, 14:41
The Zimmerman legal team has announced it has withdrawn. Sounds like he and the attorneys have had some difficulty with each other the last few days.

IndyGunFreak
04-10-2012, 16:00
Interesting development, Zimmermans attorney's withdraw from the case.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/10/11124992-george-zimmermans-attorneys-withdraw-from-trayvon-martin-case?lite

High Altitude
04-10-2012, 16:40
IMO, the prosecution has no choice, they are going to trial. The prosecution doesn' t even want to chance it with a grand jury.

They do not care if they win or lose the trial. If they don't go to trial, there will be a LA type riot.

If they go to trial, there is always a chance they might win, and if they don't, at least they tried etc....

Just my opinion of course.

jdavionic
04-10-2012, 16:54
Interesting development, Zimmermans attorney's withdraw from the case.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/10/11124992-george-zimmermans-attorneys-withdraw-from-trayvon-martin-case?lite

One thing that I saw mentioned on their interview, but did not see in the article is that Zimmerman has not actually signed the paperwork retaining them as his attorneys. So while reports are citing that they "dropped" him, I think that's not entirely accurate. They never had him as a client in the first place.

With all that said, the development is odd. I cannot help but wonder whether he's talking to a different attorney now that he has set up a website for funding; and this new potential attorney is awaiting him to formally retain them before they speak out on his behalf. Just pure speculation on my part.

jdavionic
04-10-2012, 16:56
IMO, the prosecution has no choice, they are going to trial. The prosecution doesn' t even want to chance it with a grand jury.

They do not care if they win or lose the trial. If they don't go to trial, there will be a LA type riot.

If they go to trial, there is always a chance they might win, and if they don't, at least they tried etc....

Just my opinion of course.

So you're essentially saying that the prosecutor will seek an indictment regardless of the evidence due to political pressure? I've seen similar opinions shared. If that turns out to be the case, that's a truly sad statement on our judicial system.

High Altitude
04-10-2012, 17:34
So you're essentially saying that the prosecutor will seek an indictment regardless of the evidence due to political pressure? I've seen similar opinions shared. If that turns out to be the case, that's a truly sad statement on our judicial system.

That is exactly what I am saying and I agree.

Misty02
04-10-2012, 18:49
One thing that I saw mentioned on their interview, but did not see in the article is that Zimmerman has not actually signed the paperwork retaining them as his attorneys. So while reports are citing that they "dropped" him, I think that's not entirely accurate. They never had him as a client in the first place.

With all that said, the development is odd. I cannot help but wonder whether he's talking to a different attorney now that he has set up a website for funding; and this new potential attorney is awaiting him to formally retain them before they speak out on his behalf. Just pure speculation on my part.

He called the prosecutor and Hannity, at least an article said so. Something is going on.

.

jdavionic
04-10-2012, 18:57
He called the prosecutor and Hannity, at least an article said so. Something is going on.

.

CNN was reporting the same thing. The press brief by the lawyers included a reference to contacting Hannity [edited...just saw it on Hannity] and the prosecutor directly. They stated that a prosecutor will not want to meet with him or talk with him without an attorney present at this stage.

opto_isolator
04-10-2012, 19:35
Someone else in another thread mentioned this, and I was thinking of this earlier. I wonder if he fled the country? He may believe that he has no chance due to public pressure, and decided to go where there are no extradition treaties.....

Pardoner
04-10-2012, 19:39
He called the prosecutor and Hannity, at least an article said so. Something is going on.

.

Something sounds strange here. They said they have not been able to get in contact with him for several days.

Uhrig is a heavy hitter for an attorney. I sure would want him representing me.

Hopefully there isn't some foul play going on here.

jdavionic
04-10-2012, 19:42
Something sounds strange here. They said they have not been able to get in contact with him for several days.

Uhrig is a heavy hitter for an attorney. I sure would want him representing me.

Hopefully there isn't some foul play going on here.

Given he has apparently contacted Hannity and attempted to contact the prosecutor, I think foul play is not likely.

hamster
04-10-2012, 19:48
Given he has apparently contacted Hannity and attempted to contact the prosecutor, I think foul play is not likely.

More proof that he isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. This is the second time George has decided to ignore sage advice.

Gallium
04-10-2012, 20:06
Au contraire. There is too much BS going around from the bad guys trying to insinuate GZ is legally guilty of a crime because of the way he followed TM. Statements to the effect that such activities are illegal should be challenged, melodrama of the author notwithstanding. So it is important to distinguish between saying following is unwise or not recommended and that it is a "criminal offense".




My statements which you have quoted started as a response to Bren, who was in turn commenting on Suarez's comments.

This is what Bren posted: (more succinctly, what I quoted, and responded to from his total post)

Not really worth reading. He did follow the trend of ignoring that Zimmerman was actually involved in neighborhood watch and addressing it as if he was just some busybody driving down the street who decided to follow a random pedestrian. I don't look to Suarez for useful advice.


This was my response:
I disagree with your synopsis.

Nabe watch does not grant police status to follow, it never did, and it probably never will. The foundation of NW is "observe and report".



Here is the rest of what I said in response to Bren's post:
His advice to seek distance from disorder is reasonable, and rational, when juxtaposed with the mentality of the majority of folks who carry concealed or openly (excluding law enforcement).

His advice on noting the difference between two extremes is also timely and on point.

He acknowledges that IF Zimmerman was getting his ass handed to him, use of deadly force is justified. (But that Zimmerman created those circumstances)

He also very succinctly discusses the chasm between perception and reality of the "justice system", citing another well known case.

I may not personally like someone, or even have very little respect for them, or they may even be a child molester/rapist/ex-convict...but that does not preclude me from learning something from them.


I will patiently wait (and I can tell it would be a very long wait) for you to figure out how the legality, or illegality of his actions have any bearing on my dialogue with Bren. It is readily apparent to anyone who has even tangential connections with neighborhood watches that "following" is not an action they support or endorse.

So in conclusion, I disagree with Bren's perspective on Suarez's article. It is an abundantly porous position - even amorphous, to argue that "... Zimmerman was actually involved in neighborhood watch..." when

a) His actions are not typical of someone on a neighbor-hood watch
b) Folllowing someone is one of those things (sometimes) strongly discouraged by watches, HAs and the police
c) Most important, everything in the media from Zimmerman's team has pointed out he WAS NOT on a watch.

Hopefully, you spent the time to read this a couple of times, and got it. The basis for legality/illegality in following Martin is not a part of the dialogue I was having in response to Bren's post.

If it makes you happy, there is nothing in Florida's statutes that prohibits someone from following someone else.

-G

RussP
04-10-2012, 20:12
Folks, please do not take this thread off the rails with personal attacks.

Thanks.

RussP

Misty02
04-11-2012, 03:49
CNN was reporting the same thing. The press brief by the lawyers included a reference to contacting Hannity [edited...just saw it on Hannity] and the prosecutor directly. They stated that a prosecutor will not want to meet with him or talk with him without an attorney present at this stage.


Something sounds strange here. They said they have not been able to get in contact with him for several days.

Uhrig is a heavy hitter for an attorney. I sure would want him representing me.

Hopefully there isn't some foul play going on here.


Given he has apparently contacted Hannity and attempted to contact the prosecutor, I think foul play is not likely.


More proof that he isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. This is the second time George has decided to ignore sage advice.


We have to understand that at times those “good” attorneys may recommend or do things that their client may not be in agreement with. They may perceive it necessary to win the case but be against what he believes should be done.

If he attempted to contact the prosecutor and Hannity, my guess is that he has not left the country; he just severed ties with his known (to us) legal representatives.

His level of concern and frustration are probably off the roof, add to that the aftermath of having to take a life (under conditions he is likely questioning now), the national attention the case has been receiving, the death threats, a bounty on his head, and the possibility he could be feeling responsible for hate crimes around the country and you have conditions no one can possibly relate to.

Nothing that can be compared with this case, back in the early 90’s I was involved in an auto accident with a private school bus that ran a stop sign. The impact was on my driver’s door. I managed to put my knee through the panel under the steering wheel. I also had injuries from the seatbelt and the steering wheel. My daughter was in the car, thankfully all she had were injuries associated with the seatbelt. I was in crutches and therapy for a long time (because I refused to have surgery). You can still see the bump under the knee, which I was told will create problems as I get older. My insurance paid for my medical bills but not lost wages. The other driver had a ringy-dingy insurance company that didn’t want to pay for my lost wages. Naturally, I went to a well known attorney experienced in handling those cases. Since I had legitimate injuries and a legitimate claim I thought it would be an easy case for them, I was wrong. They drafted this document with a bunch of lies of things I couldn’t do because of this accident. I started crossing everything that wasn’t true. When I was finished I was told they couldn’t win a case with what I left them to work with and refused to continue with my requirements. I went to another attorney, same thing. I ended up absorbing the lost wages and some other expenses because I didn’t have the patience to continue looking for an attorney that would work on contingency and would stick to the truth.

While Zimmerman did make the mistake of getting out of his vehicle (my opinion, and probably his after the fact), I get the impression from what I’ve read thus far that he is not a bad person. If his attorneys were planning on using something he objected to (for one reason or another) I can understand him severing ties with them. If you were him, facing what he is facing, who would you turn to for help, guidance and probably to get the recommendation of another legal counsel?

If I were in that mess I might be tempted to reach out to the prosecutor and plead for some guidance and recommendation (without giving out too many details). Something like “I don’t agree with the path this is taking and need help finding another competent attorney. Who can you recommend that would stick to the facts?” They say the prosecutor refused to talk with him without his legal representatives present. What is his next choice?

It is difficult to imagine that someone in his position would be able to think clearly and calmly. My demands of my lawyers in a case like this would include “Hands off the family and the kid’s background. Stick to the facts that were known to me at the time and how, based on what was going on, self-defense was necessary.” Finding an attorney that can and will do that might not be easy and require reaching out to others with more resources.

.

Misty02
04-11-2012, 04:06
State Attorney To Hold Trayvon Conference Within 72 Hours

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47011579/ns/local_news-orlando_fl/

.

c6601a
04-11-2012, 04:25
...back in the early 90’s I was involved in an auto accident....A civil case is very different than a criminal case. A contingency based civil case is a totally different animal and is not even remotely similar to the a criminal case.

In a contingency case, the lawyer is investing his time and money in the case and wants full control over things to ensure that it is a good investment. If you do not agree with him, he loses his investment and that is personally bad for the lawyer.

In a criminal case, if you tie your lawyers hands and you loose a case that you could have otherwise won, it is you that goes to jail. The lawyer is not out much.

If you had been willing to pay a lawyer up front, almost any lawyer would have taken your case and run it the way you wanted it run. Like with everything else in life, he who signs the checks gets to call the shots (for the most part).

c6601a
04-11-2012, 04:36
If his attorneys were planning on using something he objected to (for one reason or another) I can understand him severing ties with them.Severing ties is very different than stopping to answer phone calls and doing things that you are not allowed to do while you still have those ties.
If you were him, facing what he is facing, who would you turn to for help, guidance and probably to get the recommendation of another legal counsel?The last two people I would turn to would be the prosecutor or a TV personality (or talk show host). Do you really think that any TV person would do what is in your best interest or would they guide you into a course of action that will boost their own ratings?

Misty02
04-11-2012, 04:56
A civil case is very different than a criminal case. A contingency based civil case is a totally different animal and is not even remotely similar to the a criminal case.

In a contingency case, the lawyer is investing his time and money in the case and wants full control over things to ensure that it is a good investment. If you do not agree with him, he loses his investment and that is personally bad for the lawyer.

In a criminal case, if you tie your lawyers hands and you loose a case that you could have otherwise won, it is you that goes to jail. The lawyer is not out much.

If you had been willing to pay a lawyer up front, almost any lawyer would have taken your case and run it the way you wanted it run. Like with everything else in life, he who signs the checks gets to call the shots (for the most part).



Severing ties is very different than stopping to answer phone calls and doing things that you are not allowed to do while you still have those ties.

The last two people I would turn to would be the prosecutor or a TV personality (or talk show host). Do you really think that any TV person would do what is in your best interest or would they guide you into a course of action that will boost their own ratings?


I’m aware of the difference in the two types of cases and what is at stake in either. It doesn’t change what I meant with my comment. The reason for no longer maintaining contact is not known, it could have been due to a disagreement, it could have been because a new attorney has taken the case and he recommended to no longer communicating with the prior ones, it could be for a variety of reasons. In an article I read (not that you can believe anything read on this case) he had not officially signed on with the team known to us as his attorneys.

I don’t know who I would turn to if it turned out I could no longer trust or agreed with my selected counsel, but your comment is valid and I better develop a plan B (and should even consider a plan C) in case plan A fails. Where Zimmerman is in now is not the preferable condition to develop plans of action where clear thought is needed.

.

c6601a
04-11-2012, 05:31
The reason for no longer maintaining contact is not known, it could have been due to a disagreement, it could have been because a new attorney has taken the case and he recommended to no longer communicating with the prior ones, it could be for a variety of reasons.Anyone is free to fire or replace their lawyer for any reason or no reason. But just ending communication without informing the other party that the relationship is terminated is not acceptable behavior and reflects poorly on the person doing it.
In an article I read (not that you can believe anything read on this case) he had not officially signed on with the team known to us as his attorneys.According to the now former attorneys in the "we quit" press conference, Zimmerman was sent a retainer agreement which Zimmerman informed them he had signed, but the lawyers had still not received the signed copy.

Totally separate from this, in many places a verbal contract is as enforceable as a written one. I am not familiar with FL law, so I do not know if that is the case in FL or not.

Misty02
04-11-2012, 05:38
Anyone is free to fire or replace their lawyer for any reason or no reason. But just ending communication without informing the other party that the relationship is terminated is not acceptable behavior and reflects poorly on the person doing it.
[/COLOR]According to the now former attorneys in the "we quit" press conference, Zimmerman was sent a retainer agreement which Zimmerman informed them he had signed, but the lawyers had still not received the signed copy.

Totally separate from this, in many places a verbal contract is as enforceable as a written one. I am not familiar with FL law, so I do not know if that is the case in FL or not.

They quit over the holiday weekend due to Zimmerman not responding to their calls. Perhaps they have received additional information since then.

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redbaron007
04-11-2012, 06:52
Thinking outside the box a little here.

Is there a legal advantage/philosophy/theory to them severing ties at this point? Plausible deniability? It is my gut feeling, this doesn't seem right. Z may not be the sharpest tack in the box; but I don't see him being completely stupid. Just curious if there could be a legal advantage to this manuver; severing their ties.


:wavey:

red

cadillacguns
04-11-2012, 07:04
However you may feel, Zimmerman has been tried in the court of Public Opinion, and been verbaly lynched all ready, may God bless his soul as whatever happened his life (and of course the Martins) is forever changed. If he is culpable, I want him fried, if he is within the law, I want him absolved.

What I wouldn't want is to be in his shoes.

jdavionic
04-11-2012, 07:13
Anyone is free to fire or replace their lawyer for any reason or no reason. But just ending communication without informing the other party that the relationship is terminated is not acceptable behavior and reflects poorly on the person doing it.

I don't think we know enough to judge his handling of these attorneys.

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HexHead
04-11-2012, 07:15
Thinking outside the box a little here.

Is there a legal advantage/philosophy/theory to them severing ties at this point? Plausible deniability? It is my gut feeling, this doesn't seem right. Z may not be the sharpest tack in the box; but I don't see him being completely stupid. Just curious if there could be a legal advantage to this manuver; severing their ties.


Don't forget his father is (was?) a judge. I'll assume he's not without legal advice. Perhaps the attorneys were recommending he ask for a plea deal to a lesser charge to placate the masses? I'd stop taking their calls too.

Baba Louie
04-11-2012, 07:21
Do you really think that any TV person would do what is in your best interest or would they guide you into a course of action that will boost their own ratings?Both? Perhap$ help Z rai$e a little awarene$$ to help defray the legal bill$ he $oon will face... might be one reason. Some attorney or three might say "Hey a Pro Bono get our name out there" kinda thing, lets give him a call, what have we/he got to lose?.... Not to mention seek sympathy (or spin) from the "opposing side of the coin" point of view.

But probably raise moola for defense.

My initial CCW instructor, back in '95 preached "Don't scrimp on your weapon, your ammo or your lawyer". Sage advice

There but for the grace of God...

Wondering how far up the judicial ladder this case may or may not rise? One side is awarded a "You Lose". They Appeal. One side or other Loses. Appeal again? Sounds pricey. Real pricey. :whistling:

redbaron007
04-11-2012, 07:22
Don't forget his father is (was?) a judge. I'll assume he's not without legal advice. Perhaps the attorneys were recommending he ask for a plea deal to a lesser charge to placate the masses? I'd stop taking their calls too.

Could be.

I'm curious what his father has provided to him. Maybe they have gotten wind he is going to be charged; would there be an advantage to these attorneys not representing him at that juncture? I think there is more to this than we know. It'll come out sooner or later; but it is an interesting turn of events.

:wavey:

red

Gallium
04-11-2012, 07:30
They quit over the holiday weekend due to Zimmerman not responding to their calls. Perhaps they have received additional information since then.

.

Ma'am,

You have (from your posts here) followed this case more closely than I.




It is being reported in the MSM that these attorneys have never met with Zimmerman face to face.




In earlier posts here, it was reported his attorneys (these same gents) defended the wounds he had.




In other reports (I saw them outside of here) they (same attorneys) said his injuries were akin to "shaken baby syndrome" (I assume they meant coup-contrecoup...but they may not medical professionals, and I am not an attorney).

Do you find it odd that his (now ex) attorneys were reportedly able to describe the nature and quality of his injuries without seeing them 1st hand? Do you think their statements were genuine, or part of an overall defensive strategy?



-G

DocCasualty
04-11-2012, 11:34
Do you find it odd that his (now ex) attorneys were reportedly able to describe the nature and quality of his injuries without seeing them 1st hand? Do you think their statements were genuine, or part of an overall defensive strategy?



-G
I realize you directed this at Misty, but I don't find it odd that they didn't see the actual injuries, assuming they saw convincing photos taken that night as well as the paramedics documentation and that of the doctor who saw him the next morning.

Genuine or spin? Time will tell.

jdavionic
04-11-2012, 12:28
Just breaking....prosecutor will be pressing charges. No surprise here. I just hope the decision is based on evidence and not emotions or politics. If he committed a crime, he should be charged. If not, leave him alone.

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IndyGunFreak
04-11-2012, 12:42
Just breaking....prosecutor will be pressing charges. No surprise here. I just hope the decision is based on evidence and not emotions or politics. If he committed a crime, he should be charged. If not, leave him alone.

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I wanna see what the charges are. I'm guessing manslaughter.

I just hope he gets a fair trial. I'm guessing he's gonna have a lot of lawyers looking to represent him.

RussP
04-11-2012, 12:48
I believe this is a natural break point to open a new thread... Trayvon's Family Calls For Arrest Of Man: Vol II - Zimmerman Charged... (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18830915#post18830915)

RussP
04-11-2012, 12:50
I want to thank everyone contributing to this thread.

Y'all did good!!!!!!

Let's keep it going in the new thread!!

:wavey:

RussP
04-11-2012, 12:52
We'll save this as a sticky for a while...