Solid specs for Upper tier over lower tier [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RJHUB
03-09-2012, 13:22
Is there a good source for specifications on Colt,Noveske,LMT,Etc. compared to others?

I am new to AR's but not to firearms and manufacturing/machining and having trouble as an engineer finding the real value(not trade-in) for some of big name manufacturers.

Comparitively some of the new comers seem to have better or equal fit and finish with same specs as others.

Am I missing something?

Looks like building a top notch AR is the way to go for as value.

Is there an agreement from experienced folks on a complete rifle or made from different parts for each price range?
Like Under $1k, 1-$2K, 2-$3K, 3-$4K, and up.

I know you get what you pay for. Most the time.:supergrin:

WoodenPlank
03-09-2012, 14:16
Ut oh. Since you asked for specs, you get the infamous chart (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html)...

Where the chart goes, complaining, whining, and butt-hurt attitudes usually follow.

Original M4C thread can be found here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642).

Javelin
03-09-2012, 14:27
Ut oh. Since you asked for specs, you get the infamous chart (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html)...

Where the chart goes, complaining, whining, and butt-hurt attitudes usually follow.

Original M4C thread can be found here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642).

I'm not a fan of "the chart" but it seems that most folks who get butt-hurt are the ones that buy their rifle and then run to the internet only to find their rifle isn't so great or that for the price of their Bushmaster, Armalite, etc they could have had an LMT, BCM, DD, etc.

:wavey:

WoodenPlank
03-09-2012, 14:45
I'm not a fan of "the chart" but it seems that most folks who get butt-hurt are the ones that buy their rifle and then run to the internet only to find their rifle isn't so great or that for the price of their Bushmaster, Armalite, etc they could have had an LMT, BCM, DD, etc.

:wavey:

I agree. While the chart isn't something EVERYONE buying an AR needs to abide buy (different tools for different tasks, and all), for anyone wanting a hard-use weapon, or something they are going to bet their life behind as a HD/SD weapon, it is definitely useful.

RatDrall
03-09-2012, 14:47
Is there an agreement from experienced folks on a complete rifle or made from different parts for each price range?
Like Under $1k, 1-$2K, 2-$3K, 3-$4K, and up.


When I was shopping, comparing features to prices, etc. there seems to be 3 groups of guns.

The lowest guns, like DPMS, Del-ton, and Olympic cut as many corners as they can, in both materials and quality control. These can be had for $600-1200. You might luck out and get a good one, or you might have to send it back to the factory a few times to get it working right. Don't be suprised if your chamber is not true 5.56mm, your gas key works itself loose from not being staked, or you experience constant malfunctions.

The mid level guns, like S&W M&P15, CMMG, and Stag generally use better materials and perform most of the "mil spec" quality control tests. This includes staking the stock tube nut and the gas key. The barrels won't be cold hammer forged and the bolts and barrels will not be HP tested. These can be had for $750 - 1200. These generally function reliably and many good deals can be found. I had an M&P15 that went 500 rounds in an afternoon without cleaning and didn't malfunction once.

The best rifles, that are truly "mil-spec" are made by Colt, FN, Bravo Company, Daniel Defense, and Noveske. These will be made out of the proper materials, have cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels, have proper staking of the gas key and stock tube nut, and have MPI and HP tested barrels and bolts. These can be found for $950 and up.

Obviously I'm missing some brands, just listing what I looked at.

Right now, the best values are from Palmetto State Armory and Bravo Company. PSA offers an upgrade to an FN made cold hammer forged chrome lined barrel, you can buy a complete lower and upper from them for under $800 or so, made from some pretty good parts. Or you could spend right around $950 for a complete upper and lower from Bravo Company and have a much better rifle than anything else in the price range. There is a BCM rifle around that went 43k rounds and was only cleaned once (google "filthy 14").

I hope this helps :wavey:

I wouldn't hesitate to trust any of the mid or top level rifles, but I wouldn't bother with the cheapest AR15s. If I couldn't afford an extra $150 for a rifle, I couldn't afford ammunition to shoot it, buy magazines, etc. and wouldn't even bother.

WoodenPlank
03-09-2012, 15:11
Hammer forged isn't the default among all the top tier brands, however. My LMT barrel is not hammer forged (at least it's not advertised as such), and BCM doesn't use their hammer-forged barrels by default. It's a great option, but I don't think the TDP actually calls for it.

pag23
03-09-2012, 16:42
Man... The "chart" came out after the first post :)

There is good advice on this and a couple other forums..

jrs93accord
03-09-2012, 17:35
Well, I will have to weigh in here. First off, anyone that knows me here will attest to my knowledge of ARs and components. I have been building my own for several years now. At one time, I had amassed 26 of them. Over the past few years, I sold and traded some. I am back up to 20 as of now, with #21 in the works already. I own, and have owned, several high end ARs. I also own, and have owned, several other ARs. When it comes to an AR, whether buying one complete or building your own, what you pay for is dependent on what you plan on using it for. The HS/LD Operator type want a weapon they can run hard on a regulat basis and have very few malfunctions with. These guys will spend a few thousand dollars for that weapon. Putting $3000 into an AR like that is about par for the course. Some examples may include: LWRC, LMT, Noveske, Colt, PWS, POF, KAC, and LaRue.

For the avid AR enthusiast who will compete with his AR, in 3-Gun perhaps, and use it for defensive purposes, he wants something he can run reliably without breaking the bank. An AR in this class could involve spending a couple Grand. A quality AR and optic are a must. Some examples may include: BCM, CMMG, STAG, Doublestar, Daniel Defense, and a few others.

Then you have the new guy who has his AR for plinking and HD, possibly for hunting too. He wants a bargain setup since he will not be using it all the time. He still wants something that will dependable for his purposes and not empty his wallet. This type will generally keep the expense below $1K. Some will venture to aound $1500 with the optic included. Some examples may include: Del-Ton, PSA, DS Arms, DPMS, and Spikes.

Now, all that said, there is a multitude of name brand upper and lowers out there. There is also a mass amount of LPKs, BCGs, CHs, barrels, FHs, rails, handguards, sights, stocks, etc. Anyone can build a good quality AR. It just depends on what you want. Do you want a Mil-Spec weapon, or do you just want one that will be dependable for its intended purpose? Do you have unlimited finances, or are you on a strict budget? Do you want all of the bells and whistles, or are you looking just for the basics? Do you want top quality glass, or are you satisfied with an inexpensive decent copy?

I am not a fan of the chart. Although informative, it does cause some to demean others simply because they bought a Del-Ton M4 instead of a KAC SR-15E3. I have never used the chart to make any decision. I do my homework. I will say this, some of my best ARs are not in the top tier. Some of their parts are. The guts are a lot more important than the glamour. I say to educate yourself on the different ARs and AR products that are available. Talk to people who have used certain products. Feedback from the users is invaluable.

As far as the "chart" is concerned, it should only be used as a reference tool. It is NOT Gospel.

RJHUB
03-09-2012, 17:45
Thanks WoodenPlank.
I am thinking about using PSA parts on a build and the only AR's I have shot recently are Stag and PSA.
I have a couple of the Lowers and they look really nice.

I shot a Colt HBAR years ago before I ever got interested in buying myself.

I have looked at the chart before but was wondering more about tolerance and manufacturing procedures.
Is that kind of information avialable?

I want to buy a Colt but was really disappointed in the one I saw at WalMart. Really loose fit and finish on lower looked like paint.

As I mentioned on another post. I really like Colt.
And I am trying to convince myself the LE6920 would not disapoint after I bought it. I only shoot rifles 2 to 3 times a month.

WoodenPlank
03-09-2012, 17:49
Thanks WoodenPlank.
I am thinking about using PSA parts on a build and the only AR's I have shot recently are Stag and PSA.
I have a couple of the Lowers and they look really nice.

I shot a Colt HBAR years ago before I ever got interested in buying myself.

I have looked at the chart before but was wondering more about tolerance and manufacturing procedures.
Is that kind of information avialable?

I want to buy a Colt but was really disappointed in the one I saw at WalMart. Really loose fit and finish on lower looked like paint.

As I mentioned on another post. I really like Colt.
And I am trying to convince myself the LE6920 would not disapoint after I bought it. I only shoot rifles 2 to 3 times a month.

PSA seems to be good to go for anyone wanting a mid-range AR. The 6920 is known to be a solid, reliable, and durable weapon as well.

Tolerances and production info is hard to come by. The only company that sells ARs to civilians (and is still in business) that has the military Technical Data Package is Colt. Otherwise, the most information that seems to be publicly available is the chart.

RJHUB
03-09-2012, 17:59
Did I hear you say BUY THE COLT?
And build the PSA for my 11yr old son.
:supergrin:

Thanks for the info. I don't mind paying for quality.
The Colt will probably be gone now.

WoodenPlank
03-09-2012, 18:02
Did I hear you say BUY THE COLT?
And build the PSA for my 11yr old son.
:supergrin:

Thanks for the info. I don't mind paying for quality.
The Colt will probably be gone now.

If it is, there are more where it came from. Personally, I won't buy a Colt, but only because I go for custom builds. Easier and cheaper to build it from the ground up how I want it instead of buying a complete gun and redoing half of it.

RJHUB
03-09-2012, 18:13
Thanks also jrs93accord. That is a good explaination for my (I know)open ended question.
Your reply is a good deal of what I have found so far.

Now, I will tell you what I am dealing with now.
I have a Stag model3 with Troy BUIS back and gas block,
I shot with those for a while and got used to rifle.
I functions flawless but gets really hot.
Then I bought a Larue 104 for a Nikon Monarch3x9 to shoot bullseys at 100m.
I now have a Eotech that I love.
Shopped around and bought it at a good deal and knew I would eventually buy more.(have many other firearms)

It actually does what I want. But now I want another.
Bigger,better,faster.

You all know what I mean.:supergrin:

G30Mike
03-09-2012, 19:12
I went from Bushmaster to DPMS and now to Colt. My next M4 will be a Noveske, but it will be an added one as I don't want to get rid of the Colt. Hoping to get into one this summer. These things are more addictive than Glocks!

jrs93accord
03-09-2012, 19:29
Thanks also jrs93accord. That is a good explaination for my (I know)open ended question.
Your reply is a good deal of what I have found so far.

Now, I will tell you what I am dealing with now.
I have a Stag model3 with Troy BUIS back and gas block,
I shot with those for a while and got used to rifle.
I functions flawless but gets really hot.
Then I bought a Larue 104 for a Nikon Monarch3x9 to shoot bullseys at 100m.
I now have a Eotech that I love.
Shopped around and bought it at a good deal and knew I would eventually buy more.(have many other firearms)

It actually does what I want. But now I want another.
Bigger,better,faster.

You all know what I mean.:supergrin:

I know what you mean.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/001-28.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea%202012/003-4.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea%202012/007-1.jpg

RJHUB
03-10-2012, 10:18
Thats what I'm talking about.:supergrin::supergrin:

And your favorite is?????

jrs93accord
03-10-2012, 10:48
Thats what I'm talking about.:supergrin::supergrin:

And your favorite is?????

It is hard to pick a favorite. I like all of them for various reasons.

faawrenchbndr
03-10-2012, 11:22
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/m4chartbutthurt.jpg

RJHUB
03-10-2012, 13:40
jrs93accord,
That is an awesome site. That looks exactly like the outside of my garage. I started to do a pick just like it with my one AR.:supergrin:
AR's are a lot like Glocks and other things that have got my attention. But I believe the accesories available here is almost overwhelming. That is why I start reading and talking to others who have been interested and experienced for years.

RatDrall,
That was a good explanantion of what I have been finding as well. Thanks.

What is the all time best Colt to look for?
I will be building a PSA for now, and continue shopping for a Colt. Need to do a little more research.

jrs93accord
03-10-2012, 15:40
As far as Colts are concerned, my opinion says the LE6920.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea_08/DSC00649.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea_08/DSC00594.jpg

G30Mike
03-10-2012, 15:44
As far as Colts are concerned, my opinion says the LE6920.

Definitely a great choice. I opted for the 6720. Its the exact same thing as the 6920 except that it has the lightweight profile barrel. Either of these Colts will serve very well.