Class 3 weapons for Survival purposes... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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nightwolf1974
03-09-2012, 18:24
Recently I was talking with another local prepper the other day. We were discussing the practicallity(sp?) of a select-fire firearm (Uzi, AK, M16,MP5,Thompson,ect) or a light machinegun (M-60, BAR, BREN GUN, LEWIS GUN) in a survival situation.


***Clearly all these weapons are high-end and expensive. AND require a tax stamp to own(where legal) after all the paperwork is approved***



The idea of fending off a mob of would-be attackers/pillagers with a said selectfire gun or a M-60 may sound like a cool idea. BUT in a real-world scenario with a limited amount of available ammo is not really logical. Although it may have a limited psych value, the longterm effects (if any) aren't really justified.


My personal opinion(and goal for next year) is to invest in some suppressors for one of my 1911s, a 10/22, and a AR-15. That's around $3600.00 for the tax stamps and suppressors.

And personally, I find SBR,AOW, and SBS a waste of time and money!!

What do you guys think?

Javelin
03-09-2012, 18:33
Recently I was talking with another local prepper the other day. We were discussing the practicallity(sp?) of a select-fire firearm (Uzi, AK, M16,MP5,Thompson,ect) or a light machinegun (M-60, BAR, BREN GUN, LEWIS GUN) in a survival situation.


***Clearly all these weapons are high-end and expensive. AND require a tax stamp to own(where legal) after all the paperwork is approved***



The idea of fending off a mob of would-be attackers/pillagers with a said selectfire gun or a M-60 may sound like a cool idea. BUT in a real-world scenario with a limited amount of available ammo is not really logical. Although it may have a limited psych value, the longterm effects (if any) aren't really justified.


My personal opinion(and goal for next year) is to invest in some suppressors for one of my 1911s, a 10/22, and a AR-15. That's around $3600.00 for the tax stamps and suppressors.

And personally, I find SBR,AOW, and SBS a waste of time and money!!

What do you guys think?

I guess. :dunno:

For those of us who like AR platforms the SBR option is the only way to run it. When you add on a suppressor to the rifle with a standard 16" barrel it makes it 21"+ very quickly. For a real SHTF rifle I would recommend an 8" 300BLK build from a reputable builder (Noveske comes to mind). Throw on an AAC 762SD or if you have the cash you could pick up a Surefire suppressor. That will be an awesome setup... I went with the 762SD & 8" 300BLK Noveske FWIW (Also have 2x10.5" Noveske rifles in 5.56 & 300BLK which I would highly recommend as well).

Also the 1911's do not suppress well. FYI. And the .45 is not really all that great from a suppressor either. 9mm w/ 147gr subs would be a far better choice. Hk, Glock, Beretta (pick your sin) would offer a far superior platform host for your SHTF.

In terms of an M60... if you got the $ for one then I doubt a few cases of linked ammo will be forcing you to eat Top Romen noodles every night.

I think a good AAC Tirant 9mm suppressor + Glock 19 would be the best SHTF combo. If you add that .22LR suppressor you can do so easily and cheaply. AAC, SWR, lots of good brands out there.

:wavey:

AK_Stick
03-09-2012, 18:40
If you've got the money to swing it, a belt fed, is a considerable step up in terms of defensive firepower.


That said, it would really, REALLY have to be a bad day before you would get any use out of it.

For the price, if you were interested in defensive preps, I think a supressor, and quality NVG's and IR would be a much better choice.

michael e
03-09-2012, 18:47
Only people I know that own FA toys have alot more ammo than me. And they own several that are not FA. So not like that FA M-16 they grab is the only gun they would have on them during a SHTF situation.

kirgi08
03-09-2012, 18:54
LG1 would be the one ta ask about this subject.'08.

cowboy1964
03-09-2012, 19:13
Just curious, how do you tote around a suppressed pistol?

Bolster
03-09-2012, 19:14
Also curious: if you pay the tax stamps, is it illegal to make a suppressor? Must you buy them prefab?

LongGun1
03-09-2012, 19:33
Also curious: if you pay the tax stamps, is it illegal to make a suppressor? Must you buy them prefab?


Citizens in the more firearms friendly freedom loving states can fabricate certain NFA items (suppressor, SBR, SBS, etc...but not select-fire/full auto) after they are in possession of an approved Form 1 with tax stamp...IIRC.

I have built NFA items in this manner! :supergrin:

Lone Kimono
03-09-2012, 19:58
If you are buying them for when it hits the fan I'm not sure a 556 can is the way to go. In real life it's not "movie" quiet at all. A .45 would be better, but still not very high on my priority list. For those who haven't heard one up close it sounds like a loud nail gun.

I could absolutely see a .22 or .308 having some use for both hunting and defense. Both can be very quiet on bolt actions. A .22 could also be thrown on a pistol if you had to use it up close.

Cowboy, you don't have to leave the can on the pistol. It doesn't take very long to put them on. Some people on silencer talk a while back liked this one

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/TRW500-33.html

I have no idea if it works or not.

nightwolf1974
03-09-2012, 22:12
Well like I said, I don't feel a FA or SF gun is a practical prep item for my money. The suppressor idea is practical for not drawing a lot of attention to gunfire in certain circumstances. The 223 for the AR would be for semi long-range shooting (200-400yds.), and the supressor for the 10/22(or even better a bolt action using .22 shorts) for upto 100yds max. And I do know the difference between what things sound like in reallife vs. the movies.

But, if i did win the PowerBall or some lottery,,, I'd probably get a real AK and lots of ammo! But trying to save up $10-14K for one gun is a little out of my reach and not very practical.

Syclone538
03-09-2012, 22:42
I don't see much of a reason against suppressors, and sbr's and stuff, but couldn't hardly justify full auto. Totally guessing on price here but, a $15,000 pre '86 M16, or a $1000 AR15 and $14,000 of other stuff looks like a pretty easy decision to me.

LongGun1
03-09-2012, 22:45
Recently I was talking with another local prepper the other day. We were discussing the practicallity(sp?) of a select-fire firearm (Uzi, AK, M16,MP5,Thompson,ect) or a light machinegun (M-60, BAR, BREN GUN, LEWIS GUN) in a survival situation.


***Clearly all these weapons are high-end and expensive. AND require a tax stamp to own(where legal) after all the paperwork is approved***



The idea of fending off a mob of would-be attackers/pillagers with a said selectfire gun or a M-60 may sound like a cool idea. BUT in a real-world scenario with a limited amount of available ammo is not really logical. Although it may have a limited psych value, the longterm effects (if any) aren't really justified.


My personal opinion(and goal for next year) is to invest in some suppressors for one of my 1911s, a 10/22, and a AR-15. That's around $3600.00 for the tax stamps and suppressors.

And personally, I find SBR,AOW, and SBS a waste of time and money!!

What do you guys think?



Use of an NFA item in a self-defense scenario is asking for a lot of government & media scrutiny, loss of the NFA item(s) for an extended period of time, etc..


That being said.. :whistling:

..in a TEOTWAWKI or major SHTF those considerations are either non-existent or secondary to community & self-defense needs...IMO!

YMMV


Concerning your stated goals concerning specific weapons...

The 1911 in .45 ACP...

Most cans in .45 ACP are run wet for decent noise suppression..

..but there are some ear safe units that can be run dry.

Off the top of my head..

.the AAC Ti-Rant .45

..& the Silencerco 45Osprey


The 10/22...

You might want to check out this thread..

http://pullig.dyndns.org/practicalpreps/forums3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=700&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


..especially towards the end of page 3..

..concerning the pros & cons of integral vs. detachable suppressed..

..and the pluses of SBR'ing the 10/22 platform! :supergrin:


The AR in 5.56...

..lots of good choices here..

I personally like the now discontinued AAC SPR/M4..

..but the soon to be released AAC SR5 (& SR7) should be interesting..

..along with Silencerco's Saker.

Some run .30 caliber cans on 5.56 platforms with good results..

..like the AAC 762SD & the newer AAC 762SDN6

One big consideration for me personally on the 5.56 platforms is blowback of gases & particulate thru the ejection port..

..accompanied by higher SPL to the ears...

Many otherwise good-to-excellent suppressors are a "fail" in this department!


Concerning your comments about SBR..

..SBR'ing some weapons really reduces their terminal effectiveness..... (5.56x45 is one example)

..but other calibers work well even with shorter barrels..

..such as the AAC .300 BLK & the 5.7x28mm

kirgi08
03-09-2012, 23:07
Sorry.'08. :sorry:

You could handle the above better than I

LongGun1
03-09-2012, 23:24
But, if i did win the PowerBall or some lottery,,, I'd probably get a real AK and lots of ammo! But trying to save up $10-14K for one gun is a little out of my reach and not very practical.


As I consult for several FFL/SOT as a sideline..

..I get a lot of NFA trigger time!

But if SHTF....

..& I was given the choice between an...

..select-fire AKM..

..or an semi-auto AKM with a red-dot optic..

..it would be the latter...hands down!


The former may be more fun...

..but the latter is more effective (when presented with most scenarios I could envision)!



That being said...

Suppressed...especially if using subsonics..

..has a real SHTF usefulness...IMO!

Combined with NVD and/or thermal...

..real game changer! :whistling:

LongGun1
03-09-2012, 23:30
Just curious, how do you tote around a suppressed pistol?


With some suppressors like the AWC Abraxas & Silencerco Osprey..

...you just need an open ended holster.


With others...you have to be more creative..

..such as an open front IPSC-type holster.

3000fps
03-10-2012, 08:58
I don't want to say anything that could get me in trouble but, if it's the SHTF "End Times"..... are you going to be worried about an ATF law?

How difficult is it to purchase cheap components now that you know will work and can be assembled later to produce a can or an auto sear.

I'm NOT saying to do anything illegal now, but it could leave you far better off in the long run with much much much more money. People make cans and auto sears all the time.

The Cartel's buy WASR-10's and pay bubba gunsmiths to convert them to F/A

inzone
03-10-2012, 09:11
If I were rich I would definitely have top end class III's.....instead the po' boy strategy is Stalin's adage the "quantity has a quality all its own"..... SKS's and cases of ammo with cheap stripper clips, and a boatload of uber cheap Russian nagants and those wooden crates of 7.62 54 and plastic buckets of beans and rice, lots of slat and sugar, etc..... and approx. 10 to 14 people..... and plenty of scatterguns....that SERIOUSLY is actually what I have done and it is my plan fwiw.... I have a large poor extended family and I cant afford anything better but I think it just might work but IF won the lottery...belt fed .50 cal's for everybody!

DustyJacket
03-10-2012, 10:03
If you watch the pros in action (not hollywood) most folks like Special Forces use their M16s on semi-auto.

It is a lot more accurate to do 2-3 rapid fire SA shots, and since you have to carry your own ammo, you do not want to shoot much FA.

In my case, I don't own FA but I do cave some suppressed weapons.

Outer Rondacker
03-10-2012, 10:39
I hate shotguns!!!! But with that said say, my first grab is the case of buckshot and my mossberg 500 that holds 8+1. What you say well with buckshot loaded up and 12 pellets a shot I can drop more um targets coming across a feild with 9 then I bet most can do with 30+ rounds in an ar. Just my 2 cents. In life or death I dont aim to wound and I do belive that is why we use 223/556 in this day and age is it not.

AK_Stick
03-10-2012, 13:36
must be an awfully short field if 12 gauge with buckshot is effective all the way across it.


But then again, with your last sentence, I'm pretty sure you're clueless enough to beleive that.

cyrsequipment
03-10-2012, 14:20
must be an awfully short field if 12 gauge with buckshot is effective all the way across it.


But then again, with your last sentence, I'm pretty sure you're clueless enough to beleive that.

You JUST relied on his last sentence to determine that???

AK_Stick
03-10-2012, 14:45
I was feeling generous today.

quake
03-10-2012, 16:08
...For the price, if you were interested in defensive preps, I think a supressor, and quality NVG's and IR would be a much better choice.

+1 completely. I have suppressors, but have no desire for full auto anything.



Just curious, how do you tote around a suppressed pistol?
As LG1 says, it's not as bad as many think, at least if you go with a compact suppressor.

Glock 19 - a 16-shot 9mm - even with the suppressor in place, roughly the same size as a target-barreled .22 pistol:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/quake316/LE/G19-AbraxasMk2.jpg
(That .22 is suppressed, but no larger than many non-suppressed pistols)


Same suppressor on an 11-shot glock 26, the overall suppressed 9mm package is actually smaller than the .22 pistol is:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/quake316/LE/G26-AbraxasMk2-edited.jpg

Not compact or deep-concealment guns, but not as bad as you might think.

Glockdude1
03-10-2012, 16:12
+1 completely. I have suppressors, but have no desire for full auto anything.




As LG1 says, it's not as bad as many think, at least if you go with a compact suppressor.

Glock 19 - a 16-shot 9mm - even with the suppressor in place, roughly the same size as a target-barreled .22 pistol:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/quake316/LE/G19-AbraxasMk2.jpg
(That .22 is suppressed, but no larger than many non-suppressed pistols)


Same suppressor on an 11-shot glock 26, the overall suppressed 9mm package is actually smaller than the .22 pistol is:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/quake316/LE/G26-AbraxasMk2-edited.jpg

Not compact or deep-concealment guns, but not as bad as you might think.

I really like that suppressed Ruger. :thumbsup:

RMTactical
03-10-2012, 16:22
Select fire has very limited use IMO.

However, silencers I believe could be very useful. Sometimes, it's just best if nobody hears or knows what is going on...

RMTactical
03-10-2012, 16:34
I hate shotguns!!!! But with that said say, my first grab is the case of buckshot and my mossberg 500 that holds 8+1. What you say well with buckshot loaded up and 12 pellets a shot I can drop more um targets coming across a feild with 9 then I bet most can do with 30+ rounds in an ar. Just my 2 cents. In life or death I dont aim to wound and I do belive that is why we use 223/556 in this day and age is it not.

uhhh, completely false!

SFCSMITH(RET)
03-10-2012, 16:52
I hate shotguns!!!! But with that said say, my first grab is the case of buckshot and my mossberg 500 that holds 8+1. What you say well with buckshot loaded up and 12 pellets a shot I can drop more um targets coming across a feild with 9 then I bet most can do with 30+ rounds in an ar. Just my 2 cents. In life or death I dont aim to wound and I do belive that is why we use 223/556 in this day and age is it not.


LOL.

You MAY want to go out to that field and set up some targets before hand, just to have a look-see at what you can... or more rightly.. cannot, do with a shotgun.

I have killed 10 or so deer with .223. Not a one of them was wounded.

nightwolf1974
03-10-2012, 17:22
Select fire has very limited use IMO.

However, silencers I believe could be very useful. Sometimes, it's just best if nobody hears or knows what is going on...

I agree 100%! I was taught to shoot by hitting what you are aiming at. The "spray and pray" technique seems fooilsh.

cyrsequipment
03-10-2012, 17:38
I run my rifles and pistols as fast as I can control them. If I were to go full auto, I'd have to pay a heck of a lot initially, then tinker with the things getting the cyclic rate reduced to where I could control them again...

OR I could just keep doing what I am doing now and spend the extra money on ammo and hookers...

cyrsequipment
03-10-2012, 17:39
I was feeling generous today.

Such a humanitarian...

UneasyRider
03-10-2012, 17:44
For the price, if you were interested in defensive preps, I think a supressor, and quality NVG's and IR would be a much better choice.

Me too. I would choose NVG's with a suppressor so that I can see and hear them but they can't see me, or locate my position easily.

DustyJacket
03-10-2012, 17:54
Select fire has very limited use IMO.

However, silencers I believe could be very useful. Sometimes, it's just best if nobody hears or knows what is going on...

I wish they worked that well.

They'll hear, but they may not understand, and it will make it very hard to locate the shooter.

AK_Stick
03-10-2012, 18:25
I run my rifles and pistols as fast as I can control them. If I were to go full auto, I'd have to pay a heck of a lot initially, then tinker with the things getting the cyclic rate reduced to where I could control them again...

OR I could just keep doing what I am doing now and spend the extra money on ammo and hookers...

Truth. As I stated, I think the only full auto that is really more useful than semi-auto is belt feds. And the realistic usefulness of those, is limited to truly TEOTWAKI.


I wish they worked that well.

They'll hear, but they may not understand, and it will make it very hard to locate the shooter.

Really depends on what caliber, and what sort of firearm you are using. But for the most part, I'm in agreement with you.

I've got a buddy with a suppressed bolt 22, that is quieter than a airgun. If its more than a few yards away with suppressed ammo, or there's an obstruction between him and you, you'll never hear it.

I've had him shoot from inside the house, out a open window with me a few yards from the window, and I never heard the shot. I only saw the reaction of the rabbit he was shooting.

Lone Kimono
03-10-2012, 19:24
Truth. As I stated, I think the only full auto that is really more useful than semi-auto is belt feds. And the realistic usefulness of those, is limited to truly TEOTWAKI.




Really depends on what caliber, and what sort of firearm you are using. But for the most part, I'm in agreement with you.

I've got a buddy with a suppressed bolt 22, that is quieter than a airgun. If its more than a few yards away with suppressed ammo, or there's an obstruction between him and you, you'll never hear it.

I've had him shoot from inside the house, out a open window with me a few yards from the window, and I never heard the shot. I only saw the reaction of the rabbit he was shooting.

Would you mind saying which brand that .22 bolt action is?

RMTactical
03-10-2012, 19:29
I wish they worked that well.

They'll hear, but they may not understand, and it will make it very hard to locate the shooter.

It just depends. People have shot other people in houses without silencers in suburban areas and nobody noticed...

AK_Stick
03-10-2012, 19:39
Would you mind saying which brand that .22 bolt action is?



Its a CZ-452 Lux with 20 or 22 inch barrel.

vram74
03-10-2012, 20:31
In a SHTF scenario, I'd be sticking to readily available calibers .22, 9mm, .40 and .223. Suppressors would be great to as they would help keep your location hidden. Every gunshot heard is a potential compromise in security to you and those you're protecting.

Lone Kimono
03-10-2012, 20:59
Its a CZ-452 Lux with 20 or 22 inch barrel.
Thanks! I've heard really good things about those. Four hundred is a bit out of my price range though. I may have to spring for a Savage instead.

I've thought about a 556 or AK can. From what I've read you have to port your AK gas block. I don't like drilling holes in places they were intended to be. 556 would probably be easier.

PS this is a really good thread! Thanks for starting it nightwolf1974!

AK_Stick
03-10-2012, 21:21
The CZ's are ridiculous for what they cost/what they are

cyrsequipment
03-11-2012, 07:48
Truth. As I stated, I think the only full auto that is really more useful than semi-auto is belt feds. And the realistic usefulness of those, is limited to truly TEOTWAKI.




I have aboslutely no experience with belt-fed weapons (or suppressive fire for that matter) so I'll take your word for it.

I REALLY hope I never get to the point that I need a belt-fed weapon. Not to say that I don't want a belt-fed weapon for my collection now.

LongGun1
03-11-2012, 08:29
I have aboslutely no experience with belt-fed weapons (or suppressive fire for that matter) so I'll take your word for it.

I REALLY hope I never get to the point that I need a belt-fed weapon. Not to say that I don't want a belt-fed weapon for my collection now.


No time like the present to get started! ;)

My 1st belt-fed...an aircooled 1919A4 (semi) now an A6..

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/LG1/PICT2351-1.jpg

.. my next is planned to be FA! :supergrin:


As far as suppressive..

..the rather tiny..

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/LG1/PICT3225_edited.jpg


..to the rather large..

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/LG1/MiscFavorites002.jpg



Once you get one....hard not to continue! :supergrin:

LongGun1
03-11-2012, 08:50
It just depends. People have shot other people in houses without silencers in suburban areas and nobody noticed...



Suppressed with subsonics can be very quiet!


Suppressed with supersonic ammo...

..much quieter....(than unsuppressed)

..but with many variables that affect sound signature.

The 'suppressed with supersonic ammo' sound signature can vary greatly depending where you are located..

..also what and where solid objects are located downrange near the ballistic trajectory of the projectile.

Regardless...the SPL from the supersonic bullet path normally is much louder than any sound emission from the firearm...

..very hard to pinpoint where the shot was made.

There are suppressed tactics that can be used to a shooter's advantage as well! :whistling:

eracer
03-11-2012, 08:58
Just curious, how do you tote around a suppressed pistol?If the SHTF, who cares about concealment?

cyrsequipment
03-11-2012, 09:05
No time like the present to get started! ;)



Well there is a slight issue of available funds... unless you want to adopt me :supergrin:

UneasyRider
03-11-2012, 09:08
If the SHTF, who cares about concealment?

If you are shooting at each other I think that you would care about it very much.

Bren
03-11-2012, 09:08
Recently I was talking with another local prepper the other day. We were discussing the practicallity(sp?) of a select-fire firearm (Uzi, AK, M16,MP5,Thompson,ect) or a light machinegun (M-60, BAR, BREN GUN, LEWIS GUN) in a survival situation.


***Clearly all these weapons are high-end and expensive. AND require a tax stamp to own(where legal) after all the paperwork is approved***



The idea of fending off a mob of would-be attackers/pillagers with a said selectfire gun or a M-60 may sound like a cool idea. BUT in a real-world scenario with a limited amount of available ammo is not really logical. Although it may have a limited psych value, the longterm effects (if any) aren't really justified.


My personal opinion(and goal for next year) is to invest in some suppressors for one of my 1911s, a 10/22, and a AR-15. That's around $3600.00 for the tax stamps and suppressors.

And personally, I find SBR,AOW, and SBS a waste of time and money!!

What do you guys think?

I think "an individual in a survival situation" is a very broad category and could mean anything. However, a crew-served weapon seems like a lot to pack around and might make you less likely to survive, instead of more likely.

In addition, if the individual is surviving against armed groups, he doesn't have much chance of overcoming them with slow mobility and a high volume of fire. The only way the individual survives against armed groups, unless they are really, really amateur groups, is with greater speed, stealth and, most of all, the ability to shoot them from outside their effective range.

In short, you need to be thinking more of being a sniper, than Rambo standing in the middle of the street hosing the town with an M60.

The good news is, long range rifles are a lot cheaper, less government controlled, cheaper to shoot, allowed at your local range, etc.

So my advice is to go buy a good, long range .308, instead of a machinegun. More importantly - I'd rather go into the end of the world scenario with shooting skills and no guns, than with a lot of fancy guns I couldn't use past 100 yards.

Sorry to kill yourr dream of investing $30K into a completely useless crew-served machinegun.

nightwolf1974
03-11-2012, 10:33
I think "an individual in a survival situation" is a very broad category and could mean anything. However, a crew-served weapon seems like a lot to pack around and might make you less likely to survive, instead of more likely.

In addition, if the individual is surviving against armed groups, he doesn't have much chance of overcoming them with slow mobility and a high volume of fire. The only way the individual survives against armed groups, unless they are really, really amateur groups, is with greater speed, stealth and, most of all, the ability to shoot them from outside their effective range.

In short, you need to be thinking more of being a sniper, than Rambo standing in the middle of the street hosing the town with an M60.

The good news is, long range rifles are a lot cheaper, less government controlled, cheaper to shoot, allowed at your local range, etc.

So my advice is to go buy a good, long range .308, instead of a machinegun. More importantly - I'd rather go into the end of the world scenario with shooting skills and no guns, than with a lot of fancy guns I couldn't use past 100 yards.

Sorry to kill yourr dream of investing $30K into a completely useless crew-served machinegun.

First, if you read my statement, I feel that spending tons of money on a weapon like an M-60 is not practical. I have hefted one at a gunshow and wouldn't really wanna hump it around, even if someone wasn't shooting at me.

Second, I also stated later on after my original post that I believe in hitting what I aim at other than "spray and pray".

I do have some nice long range guns, including a Serbu carbine in .50 BMG. I have absolutly no interest in SBRs, and little interest in SBSs or AOWs. A SMG is too limited to of any real use in a survival situation(in my opinion) and would burn through too much pistol ammo that may be needed for short range/defensive shooting.

IF I had the funds I would probably invest in either a M-16 or AK-47, with LOTS of ammo and spare parts. BUT I think my best (and the most logical route) is to inevest in some supressors for a .22 rimfire rifle, an AR-15( with heavy barrel and scope), and lastly a 1911.

Javelin
03-11-2012, 10:47
IF I had the funds I would probably invest in either a M-16 or AK-47, with LOTS of ammo and spare parts. BUT I think my best (and the most logical route) is to inevest in some supressors for a .22 rimfire rifle, an AR-15( with heavy barrel and scope), and lastly a 1911.

Good luck.

:wavey:

LongGun1
03-11-2012, 11:28
If you are shooting at each other I think that you would care about it very much.


Are y'all talking about concealment (& carry) of a pistol (as relating to holstering/presenting)..

..or concealment of the shooter while engaging/disengaging threats?

Lone Kimono
03-11-2012, 11:36
The CZ's are ridiculous for what they cost/what they are

Oh, I absolutely believe it. The thing is they are a bit over $400 and you have to pay for a thread adapter. After shipping they will probably be $475-$500 (double the price of a threaded Savage Mark II) That's a lot for a .22 which will mostly only be used 25-50 yards. It's a hard choice when bills are adding up.

MoneyMaker
03-11-2012, 11:58
Filling out my Form now,I need 10 Fully Auto weapons

LongGun1
03-11-2012, 12:02
Oh, I absolutely believe it. The thing is they are a bit over $400 and you have to pay for a thread adapter. After shipping they will probably be $475-$500 (double the price of a threaded Savage Mark II) That's a lot for a .22 which will mostly only be used 25-50 yards. It's a hard choice when bills are adding up.


If you shoot a lot...

..consider an integral suppressed over a thread-on can.

http://www.awcsystech.com/products/suppressors/ultra-ii-bolt-action/

An quality integral suppressed .22 LR rifle shooting inexpensive plated bulk pack SV or HV ammo..

..is as quiet (or quieter) than the much more expensive & dirty subsonics needed to keep a rifle with a can quiet.


Other benefits also...

..such as OAL..."Integral vs. Can" shown here...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/LG1/PICT3050_edited.jpg



My integral suppressed AWC 77/22 bolt is spookily quiet... :shocked:

(my pellet guns are much louder)

..but visually stealthy as well..

..as it looks just like a bull-barrelled bolt gun..

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/LG1/09252009061.jpg

quake
03-11-2012, 14:16
...The thing is they are a bit over $400 and you have to pay for a thread adapter...

Don't know prices nowadays, but my 452 came factory threaded, just not 1/2 x 28; you're right about the adapter. IIRC, it was only $20 or so mail-order. The clerk at the store said the threading was for a "special target sight" (:rofl:); I had to show him in the manual where it specifically stated it was for a "sound moderator".

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/quake316/LE/DSCN0908.jpg

LG1's right about integrals usually being more compact and being 'regulated' to keep normal (cheap, bulk) ammo subsonic, but the other side of that coin is the transportability between numerous guns that the screw-on units offer. Either/or, give up one benefit to get another; just a question of priorities, preferences & costs.

nightwolf1974
03-11-2012, 15:12
Good luck.

:wavey:

So Javelin, What made you edit your post? Obviously you had an issue with what I said.

SBRs are a waste of time! You lose accuracy and velocity and only gain the ability to conceal it. IF I got into an exchange with someone I'd take a fullsize rifle any day.

As for surpressed 1911s... The averge standard 230grn. FMJ 45 auto round measures out at about 820fps at full power. The average 147grn. FMJ 9mm round measures out at about 1100pfs to 1,200fps at full power. From what I gather from people who shoot and have surpressed guns, that a round going under 1,000fps. is best for a surpressed sound. So,doing the numbers which is better?

MoneyMaker
03-11-2012, 16:15
What about trip wire flares?White phosphurus grenades?Frag grenades? Claymore mines? Bouncing Betty's?Flash Bangs?Pressure mines?Barbed wire?Napalm?Cluster bombs?Bunker Busters?New Hornady Zombie Ammo?

cyrsequipment
03-11-2012, 16:31
What about trip wire flares?White phosphurus grenades?Frag grenades? Claymore mines? Bouncing Betty's?Flash Bangs?Pressure mines?Barbed wire?Napalm?Cluster bombs?Bunker Busters?New Hornady Zombie Ammo?

Well, if you want to talk about those things, start your own thread.:upeyes:

cyrsequipment
03-11-2012, 16:42
SBRs are a waste of time! You lose accuracy and velocity and only gain the ability to conceal it. IF I got into an exchange with someone I'd take a fullsize rifle any day.

I'm not sure if you think that you're Rambo or not, but how easily do you feel that you can lug a MBR around? I understand the premise here is a SHTF event at best but let's get a grip for a second. Now, I'm not saying that I carry my SBR around daily (or ever for that matter) but which do you feel would be easier to carry, a 10in AR or one with a longer barrel? Which do you feel would work better in your house? Which is easier to get into and out of a vehicle?

As for ballistics, a SBR would be MUCH more effective than a pistol of any size and it would be a heck of a lot better than a MBR that you left in your house. Besides (again assuming that we are dealing with a fictional complete breakdown of society) do you really want to make yourself a target by carrying around your large rifle everywhere?

You are also talking about a limited ammo selection (mainly because you obviously don't know what you are talking about and assume your abject ignorance on the issue equates to everyone else's reality). There are many rounds that function quite well from short barrels, even some .223 /5.56 rounds can work in some situations from a relatively short barrel.

quake
03-11-2012, 17:29
...SBRs are a waste of time! You lose accuracy and velocity and only gain the ability to conceal it.
Waste of time, perhaps but not always; very caliber-dependent imo. A .300RUM sbr, I'd say waste of time. But some calibers can do pretty good with short barrels.

You do lose velocity but don't necessarily lose accuracy by any means.

An SBR is just inherently more compact than a longer-barreled version of the same gun. Not just a concealability thing, it's also often a use-ability thing. My 16" CAR, while not an SBR, is much better suited to normal defensive or law-enforcement use than a heavy-barreled 24" AR would be. An SBR would (typically) be even moreso.

...As for surpressed 1911s... The averge standard 230grn. FMJ 45 auto round measures out at about 820fps at full power. The average 147grn. FMJ 9mm round measures out at about 1100pfs to 1,200fps at full power. From what I gather from people who shoot and have surpressed guns, that a round going under 1,000fps. is best for a surpressed sound. So,doing the numbers which is better?
Neither have nor want a suppressed 1911 myself. Your 45acp numbers are good, but the 9mm numbers are substantially off, on the high side. An average 147 grain 9mm won't come close to 1100-1200 fps from a pistol, and doesn't hit transonic/supersonic (around 1125 fps) even from a carbine; not from mine at least. Even buffalo bore's +P+ 147 (the only 147 +P+ I'm aware of) won't hit 1200 from a handgun. A surprising number of 115 grain 9mm's don't even hit 1200fps, for that matter. Typically, most 147 9mm's run 875-975 from a handgun; they're very barrel-length dependent as far as velocity. Thing is, that's still pretty close power-wise to a 230-grain milspec 45 load, and is easier to suppress due to the smaller diameter and difference in powder charges.

If I knew I were going into a situation where I needed a suppressed pistol for defensive use (however unlikely), I'd rather have the 9mm than the .45acp. Just my preference; probably nothing inherently "better" about it.

One thing I'd do different than most is that I wouldn't use a JHP in 147 9mm bullets. Some have had good luck with them, but the one time I used one on a feral dog harassing our animals, it performed very disappointingly. After that experience, I'd rather use an fmj-fp bullet for the extra penetration over a jhp, if I were using a 147 grain 9mm load; suppressed or not. I've actually been relatively impressed with RWS's 158-grain fmj, but as it's an RN profile, I'd personally stick with the 147 fmj-fp for added "thump" factor.

nightwolf1974
03-11-2012, 18:12
I'm not sure if you think that you're Rambo or not, but how easily do you feel that you can lug a MBR around? I understand the premise here is a SHTF event at best but let's get a grip for a second. Now, I'm not saying that I carry my SBR around daily (or ever for that matter) but which do you feel would be easier to carry, a 10in AR or one with a longer barrel? Which do you feel would work better in your house? Which is easier to get into and out of a vehicle?

As for ballistics, a SBR would be MUCH more effective than a pistol of any size and it would be a heck of a lot better than a MBR that you left in your house. Besides (again assuming that we are dealing with a fictional complete breakdown of society) do you really want to make yourself a target by carrying around your large rifle everywhere?

You are also talking about a limited ammo selection (mainly because you obviously don't know what you are talking about and assume your abject ignorance on the issue equates to everyone else's reality). There are many rounds that function quite well from short barrels, even some .223 /5.56 rounds can work in some situations from a relatively short barrel.

So, according to you a 20" barreled AR-15 is too much to carry or take out of a car? Of course you'll driving around while society falls apart, right?

And a AR-15 pistol can't stand upto a SBR AR-15 velocity wise? Look who doesn't know what they are talking about now.

And a YOU have thousands of rounds of ammo to burn up?

And what &^%$# would shoot in the house with a rifle? Maybe you would, but the bullet(after it passes through the perp) continues into the next room through the wall into your kids' room or the neighbor's house. Yeah, real smart! Ever hear of a shotgun?

nightwolf1974
03-11-2012, 18:25
Thanks for the comments. THREAD CLOSED!!!

quake
03-11-2012, 18:29
Don't want to (and not going to) get in the middle of the argument here, but just in the "for what it's worth" category...

If by "rifle" you mean the AR mentioned in your post, it actually poses less of an over-penetration risk than even a milk-toast 9mm load when fired into and thru normal construction materials. Personally I prefer a pistol for clearing (only had to do it "for real" four times), but that doesn't change the fact that even my little 9mm glock is more likely to hurt somebody on the other side of the bedroom wall than my CAR-15 is when loaded with M193 or other 55's; even fmj 55's. Sounds just "wrong", but it's been tested & evaluated many times. Lighter bullet of the 5.56 has three times the energy, but less than half the mass; and so is actually more easily stopped in most common building materials.

{edit - was typing when you declared "thread closed" or I wouldn't have bothered. (I thought only a mod could close a thread..?)}

kirgi08
03-11-2012, 18:50
Your correct.'08.

emt1581
03-11-2012, 18:54
I've got a .22lr can and half-dozen guns threaded I can use it on. From defensive/offense to small game that covers those bases. For compact pure deck-clearing capability I've got an 8.5" AOW that hold 3+1 of 2.75" shells pending right now.

I have no use for full auto at the prices they are going for. I also do not have much use for SBR's as the pistol AK and other pistol versions of rifles I have do the job just fine.

-Emt1581

LongGun1
03-11-2012, 19:40
SBRs are a waste of time! You lose accuracy and velocity and only gain the ability to conceal it. IF I got into an exchange with someone I'd take a fullsize rifle any day.



This was a really good thread that went south in a hurry! :whistling:


I will wholeheartedly agree that certain ammo selections combined with SBRs are far less than optimal.

And while your statement concerning velocity reduction in an SBR is true..

..you do not have to experience a loss in practical accuracy provided the barrel has a good crown & the ammo selection is optimized for shorter barrel lengths.

Keep in mind the short barreled Remington XP-100 & Thompson Center handguns and the amazing long range accuracy they are capable of.


IMO...Concealability is not the main reason for an SBR..

..Speed-on-target & the ability to effectively function in tight spaces (such as vehicles & buildings) is..

Also the lighter weight (especially towards the muzzle) really factors in when already loaded down with body armor, ammo, commo, med kit, secondary weapons, NVD, hydration bladders, etc..

..especially when you have been rotating the weapon from "low ready to high ready to low ready" for the umpteenth time! :shocked:





All that being said...

A forum at its best ..

..is a really good place to exchange ideas..

..learn new information...(especially from trusted sources such as Quake & other quality posters)

..& maybe to set aside preconceptions on certain issues we are not intimately familiar with!


Just enter with an open mind! :cool:

YMMV

RMTactical
03-11-2012, 20:12
The CZ's are ridiculous for what they cost/what they are

I agree. I have the youth model 452 and the thing is ridiculously accurate.

RMTactical
03-11-2012, 20:13
Filling out my Form now,I need 10 Fully Auto weapons

Haha, I dont think you should be handling guns... you could probably benefit from some meds though.

matt_lowry123
03-11-2012, 20:16
Select fire has very limited use IMO.

However, silencers I believe could be very useful. Sometimes, it's just best if nobody hears or knows what is going on...



This!!! I love cans and sbr's!!

Javelin
03-11-2012, 20:38
So Javelin, What made you edit your post? Obviously you had an issue with what I said.

SBRs are a waste of time! You lose accuracy and velocity and only gain the ability to conceal it. IF I got into an exchange with someone I'd take a fullsize rifle any day.

As for surpressed 1911s... The averge standard 230grn. FMJ 45 auto round measures out at about 820fps at full power. The average 147grn. FMJ 9mm round measures out at about 1100pfs to 1,200fps at full power. From what I gather from people who shoot and have surpressed guns, that a round going under 1,000fps. is best for a surpressed sound. So,doing the numbers which is better?

I edited it because I've given up trying to type words in an attempt to give experience. And also we have different platform preferences I guess. 1911 = 9 shots G19 = 34 shots. We are talking purely SHTF so there is the difference in pistols. Hk makes some good platforms as well as I own a few of them. The 1911's I have seen running suppressed have been a tad too finicky and throw tantrums with feeding as the current booster designs on the suppressors is oftentimes not enough to compensate for the added weight on the end of the barrel to allow for proper functioning in the fine tuned 1911 platform. Again, just my personal experience with suppressed 1911's.

I agree the 5.56 is an anemic round in the shorter barrels but hardly that SBRs are a waste of time. You won't see, or more importantly feel, what I am talking about until you try it for yourself. Short rifle is quick on target, easy to manipulate in a dynamic or tight quarter environment and you can conceal it which will be very important in a disaster (you don't want to be the that guy with the rifle visible in a SHTF... being a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' you just don't; being gray man appearing like everybody else will be an asset you cannot afford to give up).

If you want serious firepower, suppressability & concealability then I would definitely choose an 8" 300BLK AR w/ 762SD suppressor. You could go as little as a 6" barrel if you really wanted to push the envelope (I went with an 8" FWIW). I also have a 10.5" 5.56 and also a 10.5" 300BLK (both suppressed) and they do a decent job.

Since you are thrift consider that a 762SD suppressor for your 300BLK will also fit any 5.56 rifle as well as .308 & even .30-06 on a 51T blackout QD flash hider so you could really get some good use out of it. My M4-2000 5.56 suppressor is pretty much just dedicated to my 10.5" 5.56 rifle and looking back I could have solely gone with the 762SD. Probably could have saved those $$ buy not buying that 4th suppressor.

Still talking strictly SHTF here so I am going to be blunt. It's a BOYB fight in a SHTF (Bring Your Own Bullets) so don't let the caliber choice be determined by some ideology of what caliber to choose. You need to choose the one that you feel will best fit your battle plan and personal abilities. Whichever caliber you go with you need to stock your own ammo. This idea that you will "find" 5.56 ammo, 9mm or whatever laying around is not a viable plan. No one (including .mil or .gov) will be giving out ammo. Not going to happen, the gov will see anyone armed as a threat and by no means will be giving handout. Store shelves will be empty first sign of anything. Ammo will be the most precious thing you own for protection ... even more than your guns. Lots of folks will have guns very few will have ammo. If you want barter then yeah stack an extra case of NATO flavors of your choosing.

Anyway that is my thought on this. Drawn out. No one probably cares and that is ok. Because after reading the other thread I have learned from personal confessions is that most on this forum will be trying to kill me and take my stuff anyway so why the hell would I want to help them by giving advice freely on which the "best" is only to get into a pissing match that they will probably end up using to take me out with later down the road you know?

Well good luck to you whichever route you go. In the end it's really all personal preference.

:wavey:

LongGun1
03-11-2012, 21:05
I edited it because I've given up trying to type words in an attempt to give experience. And also we have different platform preferences I guess. 1911 = 9 shots G19 = 34 shots. We are talking purely SHTF so there is the difference in pistols. Hk makes some good platforms as well as I own a few of them. The 1911's I have seen running suppressed have been a tad too finicky and throw tantrums with feeding as the current booster designs on the suppressors is oftentimes not enough to compensate for the added weight on the end of the barrel to allow for proper functioning in the fine tuned 1911 platform. Again, just my personal experience with suppressed 1911's.

I agree the 5.56 is an anemic round in the shorter barrels but hardly that SBRs are a waste of time. You won't see, or more importantly feel, what I am talking about until you try it for yourself. Short rifle is quick on target, easy to manipulate in a dynamic or tight quarter environment and you can conceal it which will be very important in a disaster (you don't want to be the that guy with the rifle visible in a SHTF... being a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' you just don't; being gray man appearing like everybody else will be an asset you cannot afford to give up).

If you want serious firepower, suppressability & concealability then I would definitely choose an 8" 300BLK AR w/ 762SD suppressor. You could go as little as a 6" barrel if you really wanted to push the envelope (I went with an 8" FWIW). I also have a 10.5" 5.56 and also a 10.5" 300BLK (both suppressed) and they do a decent job.

Since you are thrift consider that a 762SD suppressor for your 300BLK will also fit any 5.56 rifle as well as .308 & even .30-06 on a 51T blackout QD flash hider so you could really get some good use out of it. My M4-2000 5.56 suppressor is pretty much just dedicated to my 10.5" 5.56 rifle and looking back I could have solely gone with the 762SD. Probably could have saved those $$ buy not buying that 4th suppressor.

Still talking strictly SHTF here so I am going to be blunt. It's a BOYB fight in a SHTF (Bring Your Own Bullets) so don't let the caliber choice be determined by some ideology of what caliber to choose. You need to choose the one that you feel will best fit your battle plan and personal abilities. Whichever caliber you go with you need to stock your own ammo. This idea that you will "find" 5.56 ammo, 9mm or whatever laying around is not a viable plan. No one (including .mil or .gov) will be giving out ammo. Not going to happen, the gov will see anyone armed as a threat and by no means will be giving handout. Store shelves will be empty first sign of anything. Ammo will be the most precious thing you own for protection ... even more than your guns. Lots of folks will have guns very few will have ammo. If you want barter then yeah stack an extra case of NATO flavors of your choosing.

Anyway that is my thought on this. Drawn out. No one probably cares and that is ok. Because after reading the other thread I have learned from personal confessions is that most on this forum will be trying to kill me and take my stuff anyway so why the hell would I want to help them by giving advice freely on which the "best" is only to get into a pissing match that they will probably end up using to take me out with later down the road you know?

Well good luck to you whichever route you go. In the end it's really all personal preference.

:wavey:


Good Post! :thumbsup:

RWBlue
03-11-2012, 21:10
My personal opinion(and goal for next year) is to invest in some suppressors for one of my 1911s, a 10/22, and a AR-15. That's around $3600.00 for the tax stamps and suppressors.

And personally, I find SBR,AOW, and SBS a waste of time and money!!

What do you guys think?

I think you would be better off suppressing a G21 vs. the 1911. I was able to setup my G21 at home. I have a 1911 and a threaded barrel. I have not been able to get it setup at this point. The barrels are not drop in.

I don't think the suppressed AR-15 in 5.56 is a great idea. I added my 308 suppressor to my AR and find it louder than I would like.

The SBR is useful for my purposes.

I see more suppressors in my future.

I would like to get a full auto gun. I don't see it as practical for most SHTF, but it has it's time and place. I see some people who want to use a semi-auto 22LR for SHTF, I don't think it has enough stopping power, full auto.....

I would really like an AR-10 clone and pump 12GA over under. This would mean getting a 12ga SBS.

Javelin
03-11-2012, 21:31
Good Post! :thumbsup:


:wavey:

Lone Kimono
03-11-2012, 21:42
Not all SBRs are a waste of time. Having a folding stock on a Draco would be fantastic IMO.

emt1581
03-11-2012, 21:47
Not all SBRs are a waste of time. Having a folding stock on a Draco would be fantastic IMO.

It'd be nice but really not needed. My Draco is plenty accurate at 100yds WITHOUT a stock...fast followups to.

-Emt1581

Lone Kimono
03-11-2012, 21:56
It'd be nice but really not needed. My Draco is plenty accurate at 100yds WITHOUT a stock...fast followups to.

-Emt1581

I agree it's not needed, but I like stocks. A sling helps, but it's just a personal choice.

emt1581
03-11-2012, 21:57
I agree it's not needed, but I like stocks. A sling helps, but it's just a personal choice.

Totally. And if I were going to SBR anything it'd be the Draco hands down!!

The shorty AR's just cut the nuts off of the round unless you go 9mm and at that point a Glock wins.

-Emt1581

Javelin
03-11-2012, 21:59
Totally. And if I were going to SBR anything it'd be the Draco hands down!!

The shorty AR's just cut the nuts off of the round unless you go 9mm and at that point a Glock wins.

-Emt1581

Or throw a 30 cal bullet on the end of the 5.56 casing..... and then it quickly beats the AK round.

:tongueout:


EDIT:

But in all earnest the 7.62x39 is a part of my BUG-IN SHTF plan for sure.

:wavey:

emt1581
03-11-2012, 22:04
Or throw a 30 cal bullet on the end of the 5.56 casing..... and then it quickly beats the AK round very quickly.

:tongueout:

Wait...what?? :dunno:

-Emt1581

rem2429
03-11-2012, 22:08
I always thought a semi RPK or semi 1919 would be an asset in the right situation. I'll skip the F A costs.

Javelin
03-11-2012, 22:16
Wait...what?? :dunno:

-Emt1581

Though it is true that the 300BLK matches the 7.62x39 ballistically; with the current ammo selection available to the 300BLK it makes it much more venerable than the 7.62x39 offerings.

I personally like the new ammo like the Accutip and OTM available the design and money being thrown at this cartridge is nothing short of phenominal. Serious performer with great flat shooting trajectory or subsonic loads all from factory.

:dunno:

:wavey:

emt1581
03-11-2012, 22:19
Though it is true that the 300BLK matches the 7.62x39 ballistically; with the current ammo selection available to the 300BLK it makes it much more venerable than the 7.62x39 offerings.

I personally like the new ammo like the Accutip and OTM available the design and money being thrown at this cartridge is nothing short of phenominal. Serious performer with great flat shooting trajectory or subsonic loads all from factory.


Ohhhh ok....I was thinking you were suggesting we open the neck up to jam a .30 in there... :wow:

Never heard of the 300BLK but I'm guessing they don't offer them in spam cans I can bury out back... :supergrin:

:wavey:

-Emt1581

Javelin
03-11-2012, 22:22
Ohhhh ok....I was thinking you were suggesting we open the neck up to jam a .30 in there... :wow:

Never heard of the 300BLK but I'm guessing they don't offer them in spam cans I can bury out back... :supergrin:

:wavey:

-Emt1581

No. :crying:

I wish they would though! Here is a link to the 300BLK

http://300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

AK_Stick
03-11-2012, 22:30
SBRs are a waste of time! You lose accuracy and velocity and only gain the ability to conceal it. IF I got into an exchange with someone I'd take a fullsize rifle any day.
?


If SBR's are such a waste of time, why are more and more people like SWAT/SF/Military, moving to them, and away from SMG's, full size rifles and shotguns?

From 0-100m, an SBR like the 11.5-12.5 inch AR would be preferable over a 14.5 or 20 inch AR.

If I've got to do urban combat, I'd much rather have a compat SBR or carbine, than a full size rifle.


And what &^%$# would shoot in the house with a rifle? Maybe you would, but the bullet(after it passes through the perp) continues into the next room through the wall into your kids' room or the neighbor's house. Yeah, real smart! Ever hear of a shotgun?

If you miss in the house with a shotgun, it'll go through a whole bunch too.

Chances of a SBR round over penetrating through a perp and into the next room? Not very likely.

RWBlue
03-11-2012, 22:46
Or throw a 30 cal bullet on the end of the 5.56 casing..... and then it quickly beats the AK round.
:tongueout:
EDIT:
But in all earnest the 7.62x39 is a part of my BUG-IN SHTF plan for sure.:wavey:

As someone who has reloaded both and shot both suppressed.....

Assuming we were going to build a gun up from scratch, the 7.36x39 wins.

With current semi-auto guns....
Yugo-AK vs. AR is a tough decision.
I could never get the accuracy I wanted out of the AR I wanted or get the reliability I wanted.
The Yugo-AK is loud in semi-auto mode.

I don't know. IF I could build at gun up from scratch...AK mag in an AR setup.

RWBlue
03-11-2012, 22:53
If SBR's are such a waste of time, why are more and more people like SWAT/SF/Military, moving to them, and away from SMG's, full size rifles and shotguns?

Chances of a SBR round over penetrating through a perp and into the next room? Not very likely.

You asked and answered your own question.

If you are concerned about over penetration then a 5.56/223 rifle is the way to go.

For me, I think I would like to have a little more pen. 300-221, 7.62x39 come to mind in a rifle. 9mm or 45ACP in pistols. I guess I don't care much about my neighbors. :shocked:

AK_Stick
03-11-2012, 23:29
The question was not for me. I know full well why the SBR is becoming more popular. Its more useful.


The question was stated, to get NW to hopefully, look into it, and perhaps understand how incorrect his thought process was.

RYT 2BER
03-12-2012, 09:24
I don't own any class III stuff and I think the biggest problem with it us the extra cost and hassle....were it not for that, I think the class III stuff is very cool..

Tax stamps, time and a firearms trust is just too much headache for me. If that crap wasn't the case I would own some for sure

cyrsequipment
03-12-2012, 15:53
So, according to you a 20" barreled AR-15 is too much to carry or take out of a car? Of course you'll driving around while society falls apart, right?

Um, I didn't say you couldn't, if you go back and actually READ what I wrote, I said "easier". I know you want to argue with everything, but you are supposed to argue against the points other people actually make, not the ones you want to argue against...


And a AR-15 pistol can't stand upto a SBR AR-15 velocity wise? Look who doesn't know what they are talking about now.

What the heck are you talking about?


And a YOU have thousands of rounds of ammo to burn up?
Again, what the heck are you talking about?


And what &^%$# would shoot in the house with a rifle? Maybe you would, but the bullet(after it passes through the perp) continues into the next room through the wall into your kids' room or the neighbor's house. Yeah, real smart! Ever hear of a shotgun?

Other people have commented on this particular part of your rant, so I'll refrain from educating you again, but suffice to say, you need to educate yourself on the matter before you comment further.

RWBlue
03-12-2012, 16:27
Just a reminder, just because someone has full auto, doesn't mean they need to use it full auto.

PlasticGuy
03-12-2012, 16:42
I see two types of posters here. I see the group that has limited funds, which are probably better spent on other things than class 3 weapons. The other group has enough money to get whatever they want, and see some class 3 weapons as more effective than off the shelf stuff. Which are you? Buy accordingly.

nightwolf1974
03-12-2012, 17:31
Javelin, I"m sorry if I started to get hot under the collar. I do have some experience with SBRs, my father has a registered SBR AR-15. I've shot it,and I'm not really impressed with it. It has (for me) too many NOW drawbacks, that maybe in a savage MADMAX future would have some merits. Currently I have 2 AR-15 pistols with a 3rd in the making. I hold the tube against my cheek when I fire them.In the NOW time I can legally carry them loaded on my passenger seat where I couldn't a SBR AR-15 or a SBS .12 ga. double. The AR-15 platform I wanna get a suppressor for is a 20" heavy barrel build I'm working on with a LowPro style top with no forward assist, deflector, or door

The suppressor I wanna get for the .45 could go on my G21 too as well as my 1911s. I love my 1911s and can shoot really good with them.


I do have 9MMs( 2x G17s, Ruger P85&P89 ) but it's not my favorite caliber. But I bought them because of the caliber popularity and availability. And for my money they are the best hicap 9s out there.

emt1581
03-12-2012, 18:08
I see two types of posters here. I see the group that has limited funds, which are probably better spent on other things than class 3 weapons. The other group has enough money to get whatever they want, and see some class 3 weapons as more effective than off the shelf stuff. Which are you? Buy accordingly.

I dunno about that. I mean I have class III toys and I still think it's a better idea to spend the money elsewhere...after you have one or two... :supergrin:

In all seriousness though I can think of very few reasons to spend the money on NFA items compared to your standard issue firearms and compared to other preps.

-Emt1581

cyrsequipment
03-13-2012, 04:39
I see two types of posters here. I see the group that has limited funds, which are probably better spent on other things than class 3 weapons. The other group has enough money to get whatever they want, and see some class 3 weapons as more effective than off the shelf stuff. Which are you? Buy accordingly.

I would not consider myself rich by any means. I have 2 NFA weapons (and AOW and an SBR) the AOW cost me an extra $5 to get and the SBR I built myself and cost me a total of $700 (ish) at the time. I've put more money into the SBR since then, but I would have done that with any AR I owned. The AOW was nothing more than a cool toy (not that my SBR is anything serious) but if I ever decide to turn it into an SBS, then all I have to do is plunk down another $200 and I'll have something useful.

If you are talking NFA weapons other than a full-auto, the costs aren't that bad. Suppressors, AOWs, SBRs and SBSs only involve a one time tax stamp and a little time. They are within reach of most people who can afford to purchase firearms.

As I said before, I personally have no practical use for a full auto weapon, and they do get expensive... VERY expensive. And I'm not sure that even if I had the money, I would invest in one... but I'd like ot get the extra money to see what I decide under those circumstances.

PlasticGuy
03-13-2012, 05:45
I dunno about that. I mean I have class III toys and I still think it's a better idea to spend the money elsewhere...after you have one or two... :supergrin:

In all seriousness though I can think of very few reasons to spend the money on NFA items compared to your standard issue firearms and compared to other preps.

-Emt1581
While I would agree that select fire has limited utility, having the ability doesn't mean you need to use it as your default. It's not a big deal for me though. I have quite a bit of time with select fire rifles and submachine guns, and I'll gladly admit that 99% of the time I would rather shoot them in semi-auto.

That said, sbr's and suppressors are highly effective and not prohibitively expensive. Being able to hide your rifle in a backpack is very useful. Being able to hunt quietly with a .22lr is possibly even more useful.

nightwolf1974
03-13-2012, 16:21
I thank those who know NFA items so well. Javelin, again bro, sorry for flipping out. I fully intend to persue the suppressors for the guns listed. I really don't know how I'd feel doing a SBR at this time. Anyway thanks guys.

Javelin
03-13-2012, 16:25
I thank those who know NFA items so well. Javelin, again bro, sorry for flipping out. I fully intend to persue the suppressors for the guns listed. I really don't know how I'd feel doing a SBR at this time. Anyway thanks guys.

Naw don't worry about it. It's a lot of money and looking at it in entirety makes one cringe. I found I picked things up in stages and now years later have everything I want.

And once you get a silencer I am 100% confident that the NFA bug bites it bites hard.

You will be back & you will probably have an SBR in the next couple years. :tongueout:

quake
03-13-2012, 17:04
...And once you get a silencer I am 100% confident that the NFA bug bites it bites hard.
:cool: Boy, that's the truth. I put off the idea of buying a suppressor for ten years or more; thinking "I don't need one".

The day I got my first one, I wanted another one immediately.

Still believe "I don't need one", but that could be said of a lot of things; from cd players to wristwatches. I just use and enjoy them.

TrueGunNut
03-13-2012, 21:24
very happy with my Osprey 45 suppressor. Something warm and fuzzy about 230 grain, subsonic slugs quiet as hell! Looking into their SS sparrow for a ruger mkiii next! That NFA bug....ouch!

BTW, suppressors are great, entertaining and useful. I would say out of all the NFA stuff- they are the most useful. I thought about an SBR .300blk... but its too much $$$$ and I couldn't justify its handiness as much as a suppressed 45 or 22. IMHO

Lone Kimono
03-14-2012, 09:57
very happy with my Osprey 45 suppressor. Something warm and fuzzy about 230 grain, subsonic slugs quiet as hell! Looking into their SS sparrow for a ruger mkiii next! That NFA bug....ouch!

BTW, suppressors are great, entertaining and useful. I would say out of all the NFA stuff- they are the most useful. I thought about an SBR .300blk... but its too much $$$$ and I couldn't justify its handiness as much as a suppressed 45 or 22. IMHO

.45 subsonic is $$$$$ I wouldn't be able to shoot that much.

TrueGunNut
03-14-2012, 10:20
basic 45acp isnt that much more than 147grain 9mm. 115 grain is a lot mote common to find at walmart too. I don't reload yet...

quake
03-14-2012, 11:08
.45 subsonic is $$$$$ I wouldn't be able to shoot that much.
Most normal .45acp is inherently subsonic; at least most loads above 200 grains or so.

Lone Kimono
03-14-2012, 16:38
Most normal .45acp is inherently subsonic; at least most loads above 200 grains or so.
Didn't know that. I googled .45 subsonic and the two things that came up were pretty expensive. Thanks, Quake!

LongGun1
03-20-2012, 07:18
:cool: Boy, that's the truth. I put off the idea of buying a suppressor for ten years or more; thinking "I don't need one".

The day I got my first one, I wanted another one immediately.



I never thought I did not 'need' one..

..but my wait was a combination of being able to shoot friend's NFA..

..and not wanting the exposure & hassle of the NFA process.


That being said.. :whistling:

In the last 2 weeks..

..dropped the hammer on a XCaliber Genesis Micro..

..and now... a 2nd Silencerco 40Osprey! :wavey:

DustyJacket
03-20-2012, 07:34
I don't want to be the grammar Nazi, but I thought some may want to know the proper terms:

'Class 3' Refers to the type of FFL for dealers that can sell NFA Title II items

'Title II' is the part that refers to restricted items like machine guns, SBRs, SBS, Silencers, and so on. Sometimes referred to as NFA firearms

'Title I' is the part that refers to the non-restricted firearms: semi-autos, bolt, lever, so on...

So, the "proper" term is Title II weapons....

I don't get hung up on terms as most know what we are talking about. Just thought someone out there would want to know.

mad.gunsmith
03-20-2012, 09:11
YHM Suppressor on a 10.5 YHM SBR
YHM Suppressor on a 10.5 YHM SBR

kirgi08
03-20-2012, 09:37
I never thought I did not 'need' one..

..but my wait was a combination of being able to shoot friend's NFA..

..and not wanting the exposure & hassle of the NFA process.


That being said.. :whistling:

In the last 2 weeks..

..dropped the hammer on a XCaliber Genesis Micro..

..and now... a 2nd Silencerco 40Osprey! :wavey:

:crying: :shocked: :supergrin: :miff:


There is a few reasons I stay away from C3,registration and cost.Those that do, enjoy it,I just can't afford it.I'd like the option, but the paper outweighs the use in my world.'08.

LongGun1
03-20-2012, 15:47
I don't want to be the grammar Nazi, but I thought some may want to know the proper terms:

'Class 3' Refers to the type of FFL for dealers that can sell NFA Title II items

'Title II' is the part that refers to restricted items like machine guns, SBRs, SBS, Silencers, and so on. Sometimes referred to as NFA firearms

'Title I' is the part that refers to the non-restricted firearms: semi-autos, bolt, lever, so on...

So, the "proper" term is Title II weapons....

I don't get hung up on terms as most know what we are talking about. Just thought someone out there would want to know.


IIRC...The rabbit hole goes a little deeper than that.... :whistling:


When referring to a FFL dealer's SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) status...

Class II = Manufacturer and Dealer of NFA firearms

Class III = Dealer of NFA firearms

PlasticGuy
03-20-2012, 19:13
I don't want to be the grammar Nazi, but I thought some may want to know the proper terms:

'Class 3' Refers to the type of FFL for dealers that can sell NFA Title II items

'Title II' is the part that refers to restricted items like machine guns, SBRs, SBS, Silencers, and so on. Sometimes referred to as NFA firearms

'Title I' is the part that refers to the non-restricted firearms: semi-autos, bolt, lever, so on...

So, the "proper" term is Title II weapons....

I don't get hung up on terms as most know what we are talking about. Just thought someone out there would want to know.
You're not wrong, but that is a bit over-simplified also. There are several types and several classes for dealers, and titles is another issue entirely. I would probably use the term "NFA items" to most accurately sum up what we are talking about, but even that is a bit of an over-simplification. That's why I don't pull grammer nazi duty on these threads. As long as the point is understood, I leave it alone. I think that is the case here.

Lone Kimono
03-20-2012, 22:42
Question for those with a .45 can...I was watching a Hickok45 Glock 21 video just now where he called a .45 can a fun "toy". Is that true? For the price of the can, stamp, and FFL fees they are $900+ That is a lot for something that isn't that quiet, unless you use gel. Makes me wonder outside of a .22 can if resources would be better spent other places.

RWBlue
03-20-2012, 22:54
Question for those with a .45 can...I was watching a Hickok45 Glock 21 video just now where he called a .45 can a fun "toy". Is that true? For the price of the can, stamp, and FFL fees they are $900+ That is a lot for something that isn't that quiet, unless you use gel. Makes me wonder outside of a .22 can if resources would be better spent other places.

I bought the 45ACP and the 22LR suppressors at the same time.

As far as a toy and fun, I think the 22LR has the edge. It is cheaper. The ammo is cheaper. It is quiet enough to kill a mime in a mall. It goes on many guns (rifles and pistols).

But the 45 suppressor is a little more serious. If I ever needed something for SHTF, the 45 would be it. It is quiet enough and packs a punch.

Bren
03-21-2012, 05:18
I don't want to be the grammar Nazi, but I thought some may want to know the proper terms:

'Class 3' Refers to the type of FFL for dealers that can sell NFA Title II items

'Title II' is the part that refers to restricted items like machine guns, SBRs, SBS, Silencers, and so on. Sometimes referred to as NFA firearms


The reason we use words is because other people understand what they mean. Class III is used pretty universally to describe NFA weapons - Title II is not. Therefore, Class III is the proper term, not matter what it means - a word means what people agree it means.


By the way - this mall ninja thread is still going?

If you have to ask on Glock Talk about the usefulness of "Class III" weapons for survival, you aren't going to survive anything that requires Class III weapons, not matter how you are armed.

Some of you need to spend more time and money preparing yourself and less preparing your gun safe.

eracer
03-21-2012, 05:41
Javelin, I"m sorry if I started to get hot under the collar. I do have some experience with SBRs, my father has a registered SBR AR-15. I've shot it,and I'm not really impressed with it. It has (for me) too many NOW drawbacks, that maybe in a savage MADMAX future would have some merits. Currently I have 2 AR-15 pistols with a 3rd in the making. I hold the tube against my cheek when I fire them.

In the NOW time I can legally carry them loaded on my passenger seat where I couldn't a SBR AR-15 or a SBS .12 ga. double. This confuses me. What NH laws allow you to drive around with an AR-15 pistol on your seat, but not a legally-owned SBR or SBS?

Or does your state flat out prohibit ownership of those?

Also, here in FL a pistol of any kind must be kept in a container of some kind, like a glovebox, or a zippered holster - it can't just lay on the seat. Are your laws different?

DustyJacket
03-21-2012, 11:00
This confuses me. What NH laws allow you to drive around with an AR-15 pistol on your seat, but not a legally-owned SBR or SBS?

Many states have a prohibition on LOADED rifles or shotguns in a vehicle.

And they differ on the term LOADED, as well.

emt1581
03-21-2012, 16:34
This confuses me. What NH laws allow you to drive around with an AR-15 pistol on your seat, but not a legally-owned SBR or SBS?

Or does your state flat out prohibit ownership of those?

Also, here in FL a pistol of any kind must be kept in a container of some kind, like a glovebox, or a zippered holster - it can't just lay on the seat. Are your laws different?

Is this with or without a license to carry?

Does on person in holster count?

Thanks

-Emt1581