Taking a head shot in self defense [Archive] - Glock Talk

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3000fps
03-10-2012, 10:16
Here is my original thread that I asked Mr. Ayoob in GATE: Self Defense

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407347

If anyone could give me any input that would be greatly appreciated.

I really didn't want to throw the "what if" type situation out there, but in the particular circumstance I was referring to in my original question, you would be within arms length of the individual, making it easier to hit the smaller target with such a small gun and crude sights.


Also, provided the same circumstance if you were carrying a BUG or just a small gun in general and were presented with a lethal threat of a firearm, would you put rounds center mass hoping it would be enough to drop him, or try to take out his CNS?

I would also like to thank Mr. Ayoob again if he is reading this. I really appreciate this website, and all the information and expertise you all provide.

I have decided not to leave home without my G23 anymore, I don't get worried when I carry that out the door :)

techiej
03-10-2012, 10:33
IMHO if it's self-defense and you are certain of making the headshot I would take it...more likely to stop the attack with 1 shot vs not being able to get off multiple shots at that distance.

xmanhockey7
03-10-2012, 11:38
Food for though:
My CPL instructor was a LEO. He was involved in a shootout in Texas in the mid 90's. A gist of what happened was he and his partner pulled a car over. Once the guy pulled over he jumped out of his car and being firing at them with a Glock 17. Him and his partner return fire with the 9mm Sigs. My instructors first shot (he believes his first) hits the guy in the forehead skims up across the guys skull and keeps going. So basically the bullet never even penetrated the guys skull.
Not saying that will always happen just food for thought.

ponders
03-10-2012, 12:04
Food for though:
My CPL instructor was a LEO. He was involved in a shootout in Texas in the mid 90's. A gist of what happened was he and his partner pulled a car over. Once the guy pulled over he jumped out of his car and being firing at them with a Glock 17. Him and his partner return fire with the 9mm Sigs. My instructors first shot (he believes his first) hits the guy in the forehead skims up across the guys skull and keeps going. So basically the bullet never even penetrated the guys skull.
Not saying that will always happen just food for thought.



ive heard of that b4 as well... kinda hard to believe tho.. not saying anyone involved is lying, but still hard to believe ymmv

Misty02
03-10-2012, 12:25
The smaller the target, the greater risk of missing, more so if that target is moving. What is behind/near your target in those cases?

Based on what you posted in the GATE; however, I believe the conditions at that very moment were as favorable as you can get to attempt a head shot. The way I understood it, and please correct me if Iím wrong, you were in a sitting position (not the most favorable, but at times we have to work with what we have), the other person was standing close by (not exactly moving around). Had the situation presented itself at that moment, your angle (shooting up) would have yielded the lowest risk of injuring innocent people. If youíre standing, drop a knee low enough to change the angle, if you can.

I also share Massí opinion about the LCP. I can count in one hand the number of times Iíve carried mine in two years, those have been the times when I would have had to go completely unarmed if I didnít own one. It has its purpose and Iím glad I own it; conversely, Iím not about to extend its use when I need to make a quick trip somewhere and I can just as easily take my G19.

Donít take shortcuts! Most vehicle accidents occur while weíre close to our home. It stands also to reason that since we spend more time in areas close to our home, if we were to become the target of a criminal odds are high it will take place in areas we frequent. Iím glad youíre opting for your more efficient pistol for those short/frequent trips.

:wavey:.

Breadman03
03-10-2012, 12:30
ive heard of that b4 as well... kinda hard to believe tho.. not saying anyone involved is lying, but still hard to believe ymmv

It is all in the angle of impact. You can skip a stone off of water with ease, at the right angle.

Misty02
03-10-2012, 13:09
It is all in the angle of impact. You can skip a stone off of water with ease, at the right angle.

Thank you! I was trying to respond to pondersí comment but was unable to come up with the right analogy. I canít think of a better one than the one you used! :)

.

cowboy1964
03-10-2012, 14:41
Considering that the majority of shots fired in self-defense miss unless you're talking 2-3 feet, trying to take an even harder shot is a bad choice, generally.

If one really feels "outgunned" perhaps one should reexamine their carry choice.

3000fps
03-10-2012, 14:57
The smaller the target, the greater risk of missing, more so if that target is moving. What is behind/near your target in those cases?

Based on what you posted in the GATE; however, I believe the conditions at that very moment were as favorable as you can get to attempt a head shot. The way I understood it, and please correct me if Iím wrong, you were in a sitting position (not the most favorable, but at times we have to work with what we have), the other person was standing close by (not exactly moving around). Had the situation presented itself at that moment, your angle (shooting up) would have yielded the lowest risk of injuring innocent people. If youíre standing, drop a knee low enough to change the angle, if you can.

I also share Massí opinion about the LCP. I can count in one hand the number of times Iíve carried mine in two years, those have been the times when I would have had to go completely unarmed if I didnít own one. It has its purpose and Iím glad I own it; conversely, Iím not about to extend its use when I need to make a quick trip somewhere and I can just as easily take my G19.

Donít take shortcuts! Most vehicle accidents occur while weíre close to our home. It stands also to reason that since we spend more time in areas close to our home, if we were to become the target of a criminal odds are high it will take place in areas we frequent. Iím glad youíre opting for your more efficient pistol for those short/frequent trips.

:wavey:.

Bolded, exactly!

Secondly Misty, I started carrying FMJ in my .380 a few weeks ago :whistling: :)

Misty02
03-10-2012, 15:20
Bolded, exactly!

Secondly Misty, I started carrying FMJ in my .380 a few weeks ago :whistling: :)


:supergrin: Good! Buffalo Bore (flat nose) is also very good. From Iíve been told by those that know a lot more than I, an even better option. FMJ is not a bad choice though, now I have both.

.

ZO6Vettever
03-10-2012, 15:28
Double tap, 45ACP JHP, center mass, end of story? I don't know for sure and hope never to find out, but, that is where I'm going if TSHTF!

harrygunner
03-10-2012, 16:49
Sometimes we may be attending events that requires more discrete carry. But, generally, we don't have the information beforehand to logically decide to take the smaller gun as we leave the house. In other words, how can we know that a particular quick run to the store is more or less likely to include a need to defend ourselves?

The solution is to always carry the best gun you can handle.

Humans can be bad at statistics. We spend a lot of time in our local area and nothing has happened so far, so we decide it's safe. Yet statistically, our local area could have crime rates comparable to areas that show up in the newspaper.

And crime rates "go out the window" when you are the one having to defend against a deadly threat.

So, I personally always carry the most powerful round I can handle.

About head shots, as a non-LEO, I've had the opportunity to train with a LEO department for several years. This department is very strong on officer training. I use my imagination to stress myself as I draw. At ten yards, I can keep all rounds in a four or five inch circle over a two hour session. That includes moving, shooting quickly at stationary targets.

Can I hit a possibly moving head under stress? Perhaps, but I like the idea of shooting to the body, then to the head if body shots failed to stop.

steveksux
03-10-2012, 19:04
Shoot COM and if you miss, you're still likely to be making some hits, ought to slow him down a bit. Aim for head and miss, you're likely to not hit anything at all, and that will have even less effect than hits to non-vital parts of the body near COM.

I'm assuming people are going to be moving around, consider most folks are lucky to get 25% hits going for COM in very close encounters. So head shot is something I'll save for later. I'd consider hits to the body and transitioning to the head if they don't stop him. I don't think the idea of starting with a head shot is a good strategy.

Just my opinion, I'm a nobody, never been there, never done that, so don't take my advice.

I figure in a real situation I'll be lucky to have half the success I do at the range of doing a quick head shot, considering lack of stress and lack of movement at the range.

Randy

3000fps
03-10-2012, 21:56
Let's hypothetically say he is within arms reach of you. You can practically extend your arm out and be within 1-2 inches of the back of his head, and he has just fired a round into the ceiling demanding money or he's gonna kill the clerk.

Misty02
03-10-2012, 22:22
How easy is it for your barber to mess up if you move your head by leaning forward to scratch your nose? Think of how much information your body is sending him if he is touching you, he can likely even feel/see you tense up right before the movement takes place.

All your senses are likely to be on overload. Personally, I may still look for an angle where if the situation quickly changes between the decision to pull the trigger and the impact, the possibility to harm others is substantially reduced.

.

DaneA
03-10-2012, 22:24
After reading your OP in GATE I would suggest you sell your LCP. Or spend a lot of time on the range to build your confidence in that little gun. You obviously have no faith in it doing you any good should the SHTF.

That said, I wouldn't hesitate to put a round or two into the head of a BG. I practice shots like that at the range regularly. I know range practice and real life are completely different. My typical practice includes rapid fire of 2 COM and 1 to the head @ 21 ft. At just over arms length I would take it in a heart beat. Take out the connection from the brain to the body and the BG ceases activity, it is just that simple.

NEOH212
03-10-2012, 23:25
Head shots should be something that are practiced for regularly when at the range.

It may be the only shot you have, it may be the only shot that will stop the fight. The Perp may be wearing body armor.

Failsafe drill: Two to the body and one to the head. Repeat as necessary.

ScottieG59
03-11-2012, 01:34
I would feel fine if I hit the center of mass. The head shots would be for special situations that I cannot predict. They are a lot easier is the bad guy stands still, like those paper targets.

Before I start thinking of a head target, I will go with something with more punch.

AA#5
03-11-2012, 02:32
Food for though:
My CPL instructor was a LEO. He was involved in a shootout in Texas in the mid 90's. A gist of what happened was he and his partner pulled a car over. Once the guy pulled over he jumped out of his car and being firing at them with a Glock 17. Him and his partner return fire with the 9mm Sigs. My instructors first shot (he believes his first) hits the guy in the forehead skims up across the guys skull and keeps going. So basically the bullet never even penetrated the guys skull.
Not saying that will always happen just food for thought.

Certainly possible with just the right angle (as in an officer firing from a crouch position). Skulls are pretty hard & also round. Isn't that how a military helmet works?

xmanhockey7
03-11-2012, 04:32
Certainly possible with just the right angle (as in an officer firing from a crouch position). Skulls are pretty hard & also round. Isn't that how a military helmet works?

Oh I'm sure he was certain about the round hitting the guy in the forehead then going up and across the guys skull. I just wonder how he would know it was his round that did it or that it was his first round that did that.

Darkangel1846
03-11-2012, 11:28
Here is my original thread that I asked Mr. Ayoob in GATE: Self Defense

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407347

If anyone could give me any input that would be greatly appreciated.

I really didn't want to throw the "what if" type situation out there, but in the particular circumstance I was referring to in my original question, you would be within arms length of the individual, making it easier to hit the smaller target with such a small gun and crude sights.


Also, provided the same circumstance if you were carrying a BUG or just a small gun in general and were presented with a lethal threat of a firearm, would you put rounds center mass hoping it would be enough to drop him, or try to take out his CNS?

I would also like to thank Mr. Ayoob again if he is reading this. I really appreciate this website, and all the information and expertise you all provide.

I have decided not to leave home without my G23 anymore, I don't get worried when I carry that out the door :)

Well if I had a good 380 with a laser I might chance a head shot, but mostly I would just let the guy rob the place and not get in the way unless he wanted to put everyone in the back room(bad idea as he might just kill everyone.:wavey:

Ahmid
03-12-2012, 04:56
A head shot in a gun fight ?????

Rumbler_G20
03-12-2012, 05:21
A head shot in a gun fight ?????

A .380 in a gun fight???? :wow:

Deaf Smith
03-12-2012, 20:49
Also, provided the same circumstance if you were carrying a BUG or just a small gun in general and were presented with a lethal threat of a firearm, would you put rounds center mass hoping it would be enough to drop him, or try to take out his CNS?

3000,

You do what you have to do with what equipment you have. And if all you have is a BUG and the shot is long well, lots of luck!

I practice every week, but then I love to shoot, and I practice with what I carry. That being sub-compact Glocks and J .38s.

Hope I never need a 15 yard head shot with a DAO 642 but never know what will be handed to you. Lots of people get up every morning, dress, eat a bit, and start to drive to work and get killed. So you just never know. Might live to 100 and ever pull your gun, or next time at the stop-n-rob you are confronted with several armed robbers and you plumb forgot to even bring your gun.

But yes, learn to shoot as fast and accurate as you can and pack your best shoot 'en gun that you can conceal.... and then stay away from the stop-n-rob in the late evenings!

Deaf

Sharky7
03-13-2012, 01:50
It's all situational and you have to know your limitations for your abilities and incident. I know an officer who was being choked out while the offender was on top of him - he used a single shot to the head to save his own life.

Don't get too caught up in others fantasies how a self defense shooting could happen. It could be a very dynamic quickly unfolding situation where even using your sights was an after thought. Don't count on a whole lot of time to make a decision.

Think about this situation:
CHICAGO GUN SHOOTOUT IN FRONT OF STORE - YouTube

Not the idealistic shooting scenario many on this board think will happen to them. You can't count on people standing still in an old west duel.

It's all very situational...it's not to be ruled out completely in my opinion, but pretty rare where the opportunity would present itself in most situations. Just remember that the force is used to stop the threat - not to just kill someone. Like the above example I gave, the quickest way to incapacitate the offender was a head shot. Head shots aren't a "finishing move" like a video game.

Merkavaboy
03-13-2012, 17:34
The OP posted in GATE:

"I finished my errands and stopped by a hole in the wall Chinese restaraunt to pick up some dinnner. I placed my order and sat down at a waiting area for my food to be ready, about 15 minutes.

A man walks in with his hand in his pocket, acting really shady, ordered his food and said he'd be back to pick it up. It got me to thinking while sitting there, I would feel REALLY outgunned with this little LCP, had he decided to try and rob the place, or even shoot someone in the process of a robbery. I would not want to take my chances against a violent criminal with a larger gun than I."

If you feel so concerned about this one customer thinking he may be armed and/or is planning on robbing the place, forget about your Chinese dinner and LEAVE!!!

Don't stick around and wait to find out what's going to happen and try to be some type Hero. Do what's necessary to AVOID a shooting situation and possibly becoming a corpse assuming room temperature yourself.

Deaf Smith
03-13-2012, 17:52
Not the idealistic shooting scenario many on this board think will happen to them. You can't count on people standing still in an old west duel.

But that video was the most pathetic 'combat' I've ever seen. No wonder they missed each other with their gang-bang 'combat' hold on the weapons. Heck it wasn't even point shooting. It was all one handed while the other hand flapped about in the wind while they bobbed, weaved, and sprayed.

Sure you can't count on them standing still but hey they weren't moving all that fast. And in the 'old west' the tea drinking stance was used. And I bet for most cowhands about like what we saw on this video, and with the same results. But at least the cowboys had black powder to camouflage their getaways.

Deaf

MarkM32
03-13-2012, 18:13
But that video was the most pathetic 'combat' I've ever seen. No wonder they missed each other with their gang-bang 'combat' hold on the weapons. Heck it wasn't even point shooting. It was all one handed while the other hand flapped about in the wind while they bobbed, weaved, and sprayed.
Deaf


It's apparent that you've never been in that situation. Someone could shoot at you, stand perfectly still, and chances are you are just going to let rounds rip. Now I don't mean you personally, I mean in general.

I'll tell you why I say this, my first tour in Afghan, my unit was on a patrol trying to find some info on a group of farmers that were murdered. We were walking down the street, and BAM. Guy with an AK was standing by the corner of a building letting it rip. I dropped to my knee and returned fire. I fired 17 rounds, none of which hit the guy. When it happend, I pretty much just pointed in his direction and put a couple of bursts in his area.

Now, as a military operator, I received ample training on shooting accurately. When, and if, that moment comes when shots ring out towards you, it's a much different situation. Trust me, rounds sound completely different when they are coming your way.

Blaster
03-13-2012, 18:43
I am at a bit of a lose trying to determine what the OP is asking.

A. Shooting for the head rather than COM?
B. Shooting preemptively?
C. Doing A or B above dependent upon the caliber of the weapon being small?
D. All of the above.

Thoughts:
1. I ain't the Lone Ranger. I'm looking out for me and mine.
2. If I don't have to shoot I won't.
3. Don't carry pea shooters.
4. Solve the problem as efficiently as possible.

Deaf Smith
03-13-2012, 20:30
It's apparent that you've never been in that situation. Someone could shoot at you, stand perfectly still, and chances are you are just going to let rounds rip. Now I don't mean you personally, I mean in general.

I'll tell you why I say this, my first tour in Afghan, my unit was on a patrol trying to find some info on a group of farmers that were murdered. We were walking down the street, and BAM. Guy with an AK was standing by the corner of a building letting it rip. I dropped to my knee and returned fire. I fired 17 rounds, none of which hit the guy. When it happend, I pretty much just pointed in his direction and put a couple of bursts in his area.

Now, as a military operator, I received ample training on shooting accurately. When, and if, that moment comes when shots ring out towards you, it's a much different situation. Trust me, rounds sound completely different when they are coming your way.

But Mark, did you dance around firing one handed just sticking the gun out? No, you did follow your training to an extent. Yes I know it's easy to get target fixated and forget the sights, especially if it was your first gunfight and if you were surprised (you were, right?), but some of your training did come through? And notice he missed you to, and he got the first shot off.

Deaf

OldSchool64
03-13-2012, 21:24
For me if .380 P3AT with Armalaser was my only option in a self defense situation, it would be the head shot, otherwise it's center of mass.

PlasticGuy
03-14-2012, 03:43
I think Mas summed it up perfectly in his response. If you are carrying a gun that you don't trust to be effective with anything other than a head shot, you need to switch to a handgun caliber that sucks less.

dosei
03-14-2012, 07:35
Would I take a head shot? It is a conceivable possiblity, but unlikely.

Would I carry a caliber that made me feel a headshot might be the only way to stop a non-armored attacker...no.

Presscheck40
03-14-2012, 07:53
Many LEO instructor classes I have attended teach 2 to the chest and one to the head keeps me alive and makes you dead and that has stuck with me over the years and that's what I also teach my LEO students. I do not stress it to my civilian students because they do not have as much trigger time as my LEO students so we discuss more center mass issues to give them a larger target. With that being said yes I would take a head shot but only after a double tap chest shot.


Presscheck40

KappaAlphaASU
03-14-2012, 08:19
The way that our training officer teaches us, center of mass is your best bet, but if a head shot presents itself, take it. We are trained to stop the threat and the quickest way is by a head shot. If the perosn dies in the process, oh well. If they die, that is a by product of what they caused us to do in a deadly force situation.

Deaf Smith
03-14-2012, 17:20
And Mark, another thing about training and what happens in combat.

Look at this video below were an attendant in a drive-thru beer store defended himself against a robber. Notice how the attendant used good technique while the robber used very bad technique (not unlike the video we are discussing.) The attendant used good two handed hold, good index, good solid stance, and he shot the robber FOUR TIMES, four out of four shots, while the robber missed every shot.

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Drive-Thru-Owner-Shoots-Guy-Who-Tried-To-Rob-Store/MwifoKVaPkq4gdQB-fkrDA.cspx

Deaf

Sharky7
03-14-2012, 17:43
And Mark, another thing about training and what happens in combat.

Look at this video below were an attendant in a drive-thru beer store defended himself against a robber. Notice how the attendant used good technique while the robber used very bad technique (not unlike the video we are discussing.) The attendant used good two handed hold, good index, good solid stance, and he shot the robber FOUR TIMES, four out of four shots, while the robber missed every shot.

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Drive-Thru-Owner-Shoots-Guy-Who-Tried-To-Rob-Store/MwifoKVaPkq4gdQB-fkrDA.cspx

Deaf

I think you are missing Mark's point and the point of the video I linked.

Regardless of how good your stance or grip is - shootings happen very quickly and can come about in a split second. People don't always stand still and are 10 yards away. The video you posted was probably a mall ninja's dream - store owner was in a back room where the armed robbers didn't see him. All that store owner needed was some good cover and an AR and it would have been one of those ideal situations I was talking about.

The video I posted was to show two skells shooting it out in a parking lot and how quick it happened and what they did. That's how 2 criminals with probably no training in firearms acted - those criminals are probably who you would be defending yourself against. Sounds like Mark doesn't need any help on understanding what real combat is like.

Sharky7
03-14-2012, 17:58
This was posted in Coptalk, but a lot of it rings true here talking about action vs reaction times.

Hollywood vs. Reality Officer Involved Shootings - YouTube#!

Deaf Smith
03-14-2012, 20:36
I think you are missing Mark's point and the point of the video I linked.

Regardless of how good your stance or grip is - shootings happen very quickly and can come about in a split second. People don't always stand still and are 10 yards away. The video you posted was probably a mall ninja's dream - store owner was in a back room where the armed robbers didn't see him. All that store owner needed was some good cover and an AR and it would have been one of those ideal situations I was talking about.

The video I posted was to show two skells shooting it out in a parking lot and how quick it happened and what they did. That's how 2 criminals with probably no training in firearms acted - those criminals are probably who you would be defending yourself against. Sounds like Mark doesn't need any help on understanding what real combat is like.

Sharky7, it was not the store owner with a AR, but the attendant with a pistol. And he was not behind cover. Watch the video. He used good technique and lived, the bad guy took 4 slugs and was found in somebody's yard a few doors down.

And that attended was in 'real combat', as real as those idiots in the video you posted.

Deaf

Sharky7
03-14-2012, 20:44
Sharky7, it was not the store owner with a AR, but the attendant with a pistol. And he was not behind cover. Watch the video. He used good technique and lived, the bad guy took 4 slugs and was found in somebody's yard a few doors down.

And that attended was in 'real combat', as real as those idiots in the video you posted.

Deaf

I didn't say he had those. I said all he needed was - meaning if he had those items it would have been one of those almost ideal shooting scenarios many on this board seem to think would happen.

It's pretty nice to approach from behind without the knowledge of the robbers - that is great. Add to that some cover and a rifle and it makes a bad situation a lot better and almost ideal - except ideal would not be in a gun fight to begin with.

My point and Mark's point with his post above was that sometimes you get confronted with these situations VERY quickly and have to react. Your reaction is always going to be slower then the bad guy's action. You can do a lot of things to mitigate and help such as situational awareness - but regardless of how good you are or how prepared you think you are, we can all be caught in a crap sandwich really quickly. In those situations, sometimes it's just absolute chaos and you might not even be looking at your sights - so taking head-shots is almost impossible.

SC Tiger
03-15-2012, 10:53
IMNLO (In My Non-Lawyer Opinion) - if you are in a SD situation get what you can get to END THE THREAT. I would aim center mass as it will be the easiest to hit, has a high probability of stopping the threat, and a reduced overpenetration risk (this one is debatable). I don't know that I'm worried about legal implications during the actual incident. The time for that is during training, practice, and how you handle yourself afterwards.

The clerk scenario is a tough one. DarkAngel may actually have the best scenario, depending on where you are. If, in your judgement, the BG will let the clerk live if he gives up the money, get yourself and your family/party to cover, get your weapon out, and stay out of it.

All of the above is my non-LEO, non-lawyer opinion.

g26andgtrs
03-15-2012, 11:10
I can see instances where it would make sense to take a head shot, such as on my back getting raped and managing to free my pistol... head shot might be at the clearest angle.

However, I think that in a defensive situation with the amount of adrenaline going thru my system, it would be more like point gun at biggest part of target and pull trigger. That would usually be the torso.

I suppose you could find yourself in a situation where you could feel the need to take a close-range sniper shot, such as an armed hostage situation. But that's a shot you'd want to be really sure of if there are a lot of other people nearby.

A head shot wouldn't be my first choice if a solid gut shot were more available (and more hittable). But regardless... if someone is trying to kill me, I'm going to shoot them, and I don't really care what part I hit, so long as it neutralizes the threat to my life.

Deaf Smith
03-15-2012, 17:27
I didn't say he had those. I said all he needed was - meaning if he had those items it would have been one of those almost ideal shooting scenarios many on this board seem to think would happen.

It's pretty nice to approach from behind without the knowledge of the robbers - that is great. Add to that some cover and a rifle and it makes a bad situation a lot better and almost ideal - except ideal would not be in a gun fight to begin with.

My point and Mark's point with his post above was that sometimes you get confronted with these situations VERY quickly and have to react. Your reaction is always going to be slower then the bad guy's action. You can do a lot of things to mitigate and help such as situational awareness - but regardless of how good you are or how prepared you think you are, we can all be caught in a crap sandwich really quickly. In those situations, sometimes it's just absolute chaos and you might not even be looking at your sights - so taking head-shots is almost impossible.

Jim Cirillo was surprised by three robbers. Cirillo fired six shots (.38 revolver) one robber was shot in the head THREE TIMES, the other two got hit to (yes six out of six hits.)

What I'm pointing out, in REAL shootings, is that one can prevail, even with the head shot option.

Not everyone will miss a head shot.

Is it easy to do? No.

Is it impossible? No.

Deaf

NDCent
03-15-2012, 18:36
This was posted in Coptalk, but a lot of it rings true here talking about action vs reaction times.



Thanks for reposting the video link, very informative.

Lindenwood
03-15-2012, 18:40
Do you guys think the would be legal issues with it?

Say there is a case where the assailant is accosting someone else, but doesn't know you were there. Whatever the reason, you are close enough for a headshot--could be you were on the other side of a table tying your shoe when he bardged in, and is now standing 5 yards away from you, and not looking at you.

So, if you then had the time to take a few seconds to make the head shot (based on your own justification), would there be any legal issues? Case precedents would be best here, or even simple anecdotes.

imSteve
03-15-2012, 18:52
if you have to do a headshot straight on, you should aim at the base of the nasal cavity.
the bullet will go through the nasal cavity and sever the T-stem and the person will drop.

between the eyes is a thick bone plate.

I learned this at a self defense handgun class
you have to practice this shot, over & over

MarkM32
03-16-2012, 02:04
But Mark, did you dance around firing one handed just sticking the gun out? No, you did follow your training to an extent. Yes I know it's easy to get target fixated and forget the sights, especially if it was your first gunfight and if you were surprised (you were, right?), but some of your training did come through? And notice he missed you to, and he got the first shot off.

Deaf

Yes, I watched the video all the way through. No, I try not to dance around when rounds are coming my way, unless I'm completely in the zone and do some ballerena stuff. I was very surprised, and my training did take over. I think you're somewhat making my point with this though. I'm simply saying that no matter how much you train, or how well you believe you are. When it comes time to return fire, the game changes. I will add that experience doesn't mean you're any better than the next guy. I've seen guys with way more combat experience than I loose their nerve and not be able to return fire. Being in war is different than a SD shooting back home, I'll give you that.

You won't catch me going for a headshot, nor would I recommend trying to do so. If I were one of the officers, or the DA/PA on this case, that would tell me right away that you meant to kill the individual, and that you had ample time to take careful aim and do so.

That being said, if I were a DA/PA, I'd push 2nd degree murder. I bet I'd get it too, especially here in Va. SD laws are extremely... stupid. I'm sure it's like this elsewhere, but in Va to claim SD, you are admitting to 1st degree murder, so the prosecutor's job is done. Add a carefully placed head shot to that, you're pretty much done for.

EDIT: Sorry, switch those two, I just caught that I mixed them up. It's way early..

Deaf Smith
03-16-2012, 17:41
No Mark, when you claim self defense you admit to a committing a homicide (which can be murder, manslaughter, or a justified killing), but being a affirmative defense the onus is on you to prove it was justified. One must be able to articulate why any avenue of action was needed, and that includes performing a head shot.

All states laws work that way. The purpose of using lethal force is to stop the attack. If the only available target is the head, or the attacker's method of attack makes an instantaneous stop necessary, well then that indicates a head shot is needed.

Oh, and Cirillo put THREE in the head and didn't go to jail.

And about combat. Read John George's book, "Shots Fired in Anger". He made many head shots on Japanese soldiers in Burma with a M1 Carbine when they tried to trap his patrol (he was a Lt. in the 5307th.)

And folks, here is a head shot that missed (but worked out ok.)

http://www.kcci.com/news/23208133/detail.html

Deaf

jdavionic
03-16-2012, 18:13
No Mark, when you claim self defense you admit to a committing a homicide (which can be murder, manslaughter, or a justified killing), but being a affirmative defense the onus is on you to prove it was justified. One must be able to articulate why any avenue of action was needed, and that includes performing a head shot.


So guilty until you can prove innocent?

HKLovingIT
03-16-2012, 18:22
I think you are missing Mark's point and the point of the video I linked.

Regardless of how good your stance or grip is - shootings happen very quickly and can come about in a split second. People don't always stand still and are 10 yards away. The video you posted was probably a mall ninja's dream - store owner was in a back room where the armed robbers didn't see him. All that store owner needed was some good cover and an AR and it would have been one of those ideal situations I was talking about.

The video I posted was to show two skells shooting it out in a parking lot and how quick it happened and what they did. That's how 2 criminals with probably no training in firearms acted - those criminals are probably who you would be defending yourself against. Sounds like Mark doesn't need any help on understanding what real combat is like.


Here is some interesting information from an FBI report to go along with that:
http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_cop_killers.asp

MarkM32
03-16-2012, 22:41
No Mark, when you claim self defense you admit to a committing a homicide (which can be murder, manslaughter, or a justified killing), but being a affirmative defense the onus is on you to prove it was justified. One must be able to articulate why any avenue of action was needed, and that includes performing a head shot.

Deaf

Once again, you're missing where I'm coming from. And yes, by definition, you killed someone, you admit to doing so on purpose. That is a confession to 2nd degree murder. That is all a prosecutor needs, so their job is done. Anything else they can use is icing on the cake for them.

Trust me, I'm very familiar with how this works. I'm also aware that there are different ways to classify this. Justified homicide, Excusable homicide, Manslaughter, Second degree murder, First degree murder. Those are what you're facing in Virginia in a SD shooting. It will be classified as one of them.

I'm not saying that if you get a head shot you are surely going to be charged with murder for it, I'm saying with the prosecutor's case made, you don't want to make it more difficult for yourself to prove it was a righteous kill.

MarkM32
03-16-2012, 22:52
To end this thread on my behalf, no, I wouldn't go for a head shot intentionally. I train in point shooting, and I think anyone serious about SD should as well. You also need to be able to use your sights, though.

jdavionic
03-17-2012, 06:35
Once again, you're missing where I'm coming from. And yes, by definition, you killed someone, you admit to doing so on purpose. That is a confession to 2nd degree murder. That is all a prosecutor needs, so their job is done. Anything else they can use is icing on the cake for them.

Trust me, I'm very familiar with how this works. I'm also aware that there are different ways to classify this. Justified homicide, Excusable homicide, Manslaughter, Second degree murder, First degree murder. Those are what you're facing in Virginia in a SD shooting. It will be classified as one of them.

I'm not saying that if you get a head shot you are surely going to be charged with murder for it, I'm saying with the prosecutor's case made, you don't want to make it more difficult for yourself to prove it was a righteous kill.

You're missing a key point, or just failing to mention it. The DA or ADA will bear the burden of proving that it was not SD. The victim (SD shooter) will need to counter with a defense that shows the flaws in the case against them, assuming a case is made against them.

Everything that you've cited on this issue is backwards. You seem to continue arguing that the victim needs to prove the shooting was in SD. True, they eventually may be faced with that position, but that's only after the DA has reviewed the case, decided there is evidence to suggest the contrary, convinced a GJ of the same, and indicted the victim.

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MarkM32
03-17-2012, 10:08
You're missing a key point, or just failing to mention it. The DA or ADA will bear the burden of proving that it was not SD. The victim (SD shooter) will need to counter with a defense that shows the flaws in the case against them, assuming a case is made against them.

Everything that you've cited on this issue is backwards. You seem to continue arguing that the victim needs to prove the shooting was in SD. True, they eventually may be faced with that position, but that's only after the DA has reviewed the case, decided there is evidence to suggest the contrary, convinced a GJ of the same, and indicted the victim.

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Either you're not from Virginia, or you aren't very well educated on this works.

You shoot someone, the police come, they investigate and ask you some questions. You're going to talk, it's human nature. You're going to claim SD, admitting that you killed them, and meant to.

The prosecutor's case is made. They don't need any more evidence or to prove anything. It will take a couple days for everything to be sorted out, if not longer, which is ample time for them to know if there is evidence that shows a clean shoot. If there is, say a video, showing evidence of a clean shoot, good for you, hopefully you are off the hook. Knowing how CA's work in Virginia, I highly doubt that you're getting a pat on the back and a 'good job.' Chances are that you're still going to court, and that they are trying for anything they can get.

The burden IS on the shooter from the trigger is pulled, whether the BG dies or not.

jdavionic
03-17-2012, 11:31
Either you're not from Virginia, or you aren't very well educated on this works.

No, I'm not from Virginia. However I did serve serve on the GJ for 6 months and heard 500-600 felony cases, including many that involved homicides. In addition, I have a friend that was involved in an SD shooting and am quite aware of all the details of that case. But I guess it's better to just toss out insults when you're unable to support your position :whistling:

[QUOTE=MarkM32]You shoot someone, the police come, they investigate and ask you some questions. You're going to talk, it's human nature. You're going to claim SD, admitting that you killed them, and meant to.

The prosecutor's case is made. [/qupte]
Well apparently Virginia has tossed aside the Bill of Rights, according to you.

Police investigate...obviously. This is one of the first levels of scrutiny or gates that the case passes through. For example (based on facts), an individual has shot a BG 7 times in center mass with a .40 cal. He claimed SD. According to you, in Virginia...the police apparently ignore the facts and input received from questioning, and they just arrest you. In this case, the police found the intruder dead on the floor in the victim's house when they arrived. They found a vehicle running at the curb with duct tape and other items indicative of a possible home invasion. They found that the vehicle is registered to another person that matches the description given by the victim of a second BG who fled the scene.

The investigation goes on scene with lots of questioning of the victim, gathering evidence at the scene, etc. The victim is never arrested.

Investigators continue to contact the victim over a period after the initial investigation. An ADA is also involved in the investigation. After the investigation, they decide to close the case because they conclude the shooting was in SD...even though there were 7 shots to center mass and no shots fired by the BG...no video and no witnesses, excluding the 2nd BG who refused to talk at all.

Had they decided to pursue it further, they would have presented the case to a Grand Jury...yet another gate, yet another presumption of innocence. The GJ decides whether there is enough evidence to warrant an indictment.

According to you...in Virginia, you are questioned by police, arrested, tried, and must fight to prove you are not guilty because, apparently in Virginia, you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.

Don't get me wrong...you might spend a lot of money and endure a lot if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in such an incident. However, it's far from a 'given' that you'll get arrested and endure a trial if you are involved in a shooting...even if there is no video, no witnesses, etc.

MarkM32
03-17-2012, 12:30
No, I'm not from Virginia. However I did serve serve on the GJ for 6 months and heard 500-600 felony cases, including many that involved homicides. In addition, I have a friend that was involved in an SD shooting and am quite aware of all the details of that case. But I guess it's better to just toss out insults when you're unable to support your position :whistling:

[QUOTE=MarkM32]You shoot someone, the police come, they investigate and ask you some questions. You're going to talk, it's human nature. You're going to claim SD, admitting that you killed them, and meant to.

The prosecutor's case is made. [/qupte]
Well apparently Virginia has tossed aside the Bill of Rights, according to you.

Police investigate...obviously. This is one of the first levels of scrutiny or gates that the case passes through. For example (based on facts), an individual has shot a BG 7 times in center mass with a .40 cal. He claimed SD. According to you, in Virginia...the police apparently ignore the facts and input received from questioning, and they just arrest you. In this case, the police found the intruder dead on the floor in the victim's house when they arrived. They found a vehicle running at the curb with duct tape and other items indicative of a possible home invasion. They found that the vehicle is registered to another person that matches the description given by the victim of a second BG who fled the scene.

The investigation goes on scene with lots of questioning of the victim, gathering evidence at the scene, etc. The victim is never arrested.

Investigators continue to contact the victim over a period after the initial investigation. An ADA is also involved in the investigation. After the investigation, they decide to close the case because they conclude the shooting was in SD...even though there were 7 shots to center mass and no shots fired by the BG...no video and no witnesses, excluding the 2nd BG who refused to talk at all.

Had they decided to pursue it further, they would have presented the case to a Grand Jury...yet another gate, yet another presumption of innocence. The GJ decides whether there is enough evidence to warrant an indictment.

According to you...in Virginia, you are questioned by police, arrested, tried, and must fight to prove you are not guilty because, apparently in Virginia, you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.

Don't get me wrong...you might spend a lot of money and endure a lot if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in such an incident. However, it's far from a 'given' that you'll get arrested and endure a trial if you are involved in a shooting...even if there is no video, no witnesses, etc.

Firstly, no insults were made on my part. If you feel they were, you're incorrect. Once again, I am not addressing every SD case there is.

I'm not saying that this is going to happen to you, and there is no other way this will be handled. Of course there are those cases in which the shooter is instantly praised, it is not often, though.

Nor did I say that a video was the only evidence that can exonerate a person. I was using an example, as you did with your reference.

Each SD is vastly different and to speak on a future case is nearly impossible, I'm giving the OP things to think about. Of course there is an investigation, and as I said, your case will be labeled as one of the 5 I listed in my above post.

The problem arguing this topic in great detail, is just that, we lack them. We don't have the details because this is a hypthetical. To use a previous case, one which does not relate to the one in question, by the way, can and will not give you detail.

jdavionic
03-17-2012, 14:12
Firstly, no insults were made on my part. If you feel they were, you're incorrect.
I tend to think claiming someone is grossly ignorant is meant as an insult and a means of discounting the person's position without any substantiation. However if you believe that's not the case, then you are incorrect.

Once again, I am not addressing every SD case there is.

I'm not saying that this is going to happen to you, and there is no other way this will be handled.
No...apparently you're just claiming this is the case in Virginia.

Of course there are those cases in which the shooter is instantly praised, it is not often, though.
Instant praise? Really? You cannot water down the argument to something like that. Certainly the real example that I provided did not result in any kind of "praise" - instant or belated.

Nor did I say that a video was the only evidence that can exonerate a person. I was using an example, as you did with your reference.
And where did I or anyone else claim that you've asserted "video was the only evidence that can exonerate a person"?

Each SD is vastly different and to speak on a future case is nearly impossible, I'm giving the OP things to think about. Of course there is an investigation, and as I said, your case will be labeled as one of the 5 I listed in my above post.

The problem arguing this topic in great detail, is just that, we lack them. We don't have the details because this is a hypthetical.
I agree. However the issue that I've taken with some of your posts and another individual's posts is that you both were presenting the OP with this premise of 'if you're involved and you do take that shot, you're guilty until you can prove otherwise...and in your case, apparently even more so for Virginians.'

Sorry, but that's just inaccurate. And you've even acknowledged that above. HOWEVER...I think the underlying point is one that I've previously made - if you're involved in an SD shooting, you might end up spending a lot of time and money trying to get through the post-shooting challenges.

Should this weigh into your decision to shoot or not to shoot (head or otherwise)? Absolutely not. Your decision should be based on whether or not you believe you need to take that shot because your life is in danger.

To use a previous case, one which does not relate to the one in question, by the way, can and will not give you detail.
Actually the case that I provided is very relevant. If you will recall, I noted the number of shots and shot placement. True, none were head shots. However the fact that the victim fired 7 times with all center mass hits...and the BG never fired a shot...that was closely scrutinized. In addition, the victim was a competitive shooter. Again, a factor that came into play in this case.

MarkM32
03-17-2012, 14:22
I didn't claim you were grossly ignorant. It seems you are trying to turn this into a pissing contest. Praise is common terminology, and you are reaching far outside the meaning of my posts. No where did I say every Virginian is subject to this. Nor anyone else for that matter. And yes, you are burdened with providing your own evidence. That is a fact. I'm done arguing with you, as you seem to continue to bend my meanings. What I said was possibility for THIS situation.

Good day.

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jdavionic
03-17-2012, 14:59
I didn't claim you were grossly ignorant. It seems you are trying to turn this into a pissing contest.
These are your words below, not mine. As for the "pissing contest" remark, perhaps if you refrained from starting a discussion with a post like the one below and pissing down the driveway, you might avoid a "pissing contest" in the future.
Either you're not from Virginia, or you aren't very well educated on this works.


Praise is common terminology, and you are reaching far outside the meaning of my posts.
Again, it looks like you should chose your words more carefully. This is posted by you, not me.
Of course there are those cases in which the shooter is instantly praised, it is not often, though.



No where did I say every Virginian is subject to this.


Really? Look again...your words, not mine.
Either you're not from Virginia, or you aren't very well educated on this works.

You shoot someone, the police come, they investigate and ask you some questions. You're going to talk, it's human nature. You're going to claim SD, admitting that you killed them, and meant to.

The prosecutor's case is made.


As I said before, I first commented on your post because I was taking issue with some of your posts and another individual's posts in that you both were presenting the OP with this premise of 'if you're involved and you do take that shot, you're guilty until you can prove otherwise...and in your case, apparently even more so for Virginians.' Sorry, but that's just inaccurate.

Within the carry section, I think it's important to raise flags when something is put out there that is either wrong or misleading. It's not a desire to "argue". It's a desire to clarify or highlight points when it appears to be needed.

MarkM32
03-17-2012, 15:09
Again you're stretching. I never said this is what happens every time. I said it's that simple should things go that direction.

Again, I'm not well educated in rocket science, that doesn't mean I'm calling myself ignorant.

Again, I wish nit to argue. You've mistaken my statements, lets end things agreeing to disagree.

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jdavionic
03-17-2012, 15:15
lets end things agreeing to disagree.

Agreed, Mark. As I said, it's not my intent to argue for the sake of arguing.

Best regards,
JD

MarkM32
03-17-2012, 15:18
I believe that to be. I understand what you're saying, had I not been the author of those posts I can understand misinterpreting them.

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unit1069
03-17-2012, 17:07
Here is my original thread that I asked Mr. Ayoob in GATE: Self Defense

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407347

Here's the nub of the question posed:

My question to you is, if you were presented with a situation where you KNEW for a fact this guy was going to harm someone, or already did, would you be clear in taking a head shot?


Please clarify; how did you "know" the guy was intent on a committing a crime?

If the theoretical "guy" already presented an immediate deadly threat you have nothing to worry about in defending yourself and family.

Just my opinion but I'd aim COM with the pelvis as secondary target from what I've read. A head shot is probably too difficult for an untrained civilian like me and I understand the critical vessels in the pelvic area can immediately immobilize an assailant.

Deaf Smith
03-17-2012, 17:16
So guilty until you can prove innocent?

jdavionic,

In essence you have told everyone you shot/stabbed/clubbed/etc... whomever it was. If you do not try to show WHY you did this then the DA will just point out you shot/stabbed/clubbed/etc... the guy to the jury and if he gives any halfway good story and you give nothing, yes they will convict you.

They don't have to prove you killed him cause you just said you did. The DA just puts on a theory you hated them, or robbed them, or just
liked to kill and that's that.

Normally the DA would have to prove you killed someone (you had the means, motive, and opportunity, witnesses, finger prints, DNA, security cameras, etc..) and then come up with a reason why you did it.

Over half the DA's job is done. And it was the hardest part at that.

This is why claiming self-defense is called an 'affirmative' defense. To keep silent is to risk conviction.

Deaf

jdavionic
03-17-2012, 17:45
jdavionic,

In essence you have told everyone you shot/stabbed/clubbed/etc... whomever it was. If you do not try to show WHY you did this then the DA will just point out you shot/stabbed/clubbed/etc... the guy to the jury and if he gives any halfway good story and you give nothing, yes they will convict you.
Okay...and where did I say that you do not answer questions and remain silent? If you read my post, it's quite the contrary with me citing initial investigations and subsequent contact with the victim. So you appear to have created a false position in order to make an obvious point.

In the case that I mentioned, the victim was very cooperative with investigators.

They don't have to prove you killed him cause you just said you did. The DA just puts on a theory you hated them, or robbed them, or just
liked to kill and that's that.
Here we go again. According to you, the DA has presumed you're guilty and is working to indict you. Funny, the ADAs and DA that I have spoken with seem more interested in getting the facts out and determining whether or not a crime has been committed.

This is why claiming self-defense is called an 'affirmative' defense. To keep silent is to risk conviction.

Deaf
Again...where did I say to keep silent?

Deaf Smith
03-18-2012, 16:36
Oh I see the problem jdavionic. I ment part of the post for Mark!

but as for the DA, go do a self defense shooting in New Jersey or DC or NYC and see if the DAs there are out for 'justice'.

Do not get the impression all DAs across the country are fair and square and view everyone has the right to have guns or even defend themselves.

Note Deputy Mayor Paul Quander said, "If you are armed, it escalates the situation. It is much better, in my opinion, to be scared, to be frightened, and even if you have to be, to be injured, but to walk away and survive. Because you can, you’ll heal, and you can replace whatever was taken away. But the trauma of that gunshot to you or to someone else is traumatic. "

Deaf

Rumbler_G20
03-18-2012, 16:38
. . . Note Deputy Mayor Paul Quander said, "If you are armed, it escalates the situation. It is much better, in my opinion, to be scared, to be frightened, and even if you have to be, to be injured, but to walk away and survive. Because you can, youíll heal, and you can replace whatever was taken away. But the trauma of that gunshot to you or to someone else is traumatic. "

Deaf

Good Lord. What an idiot. Spoken like someone with a cadre of bodyguards. Armed bodyguards. :upeyes:

Deaf Smith
03-19-2012, 12:51
Yea, and alot of liberal DAs in states like California, NJ, NY, Massachusetts, etc... BELIEVE that!

And they will do what they can to punish anyone who defends themselves.

I fact, read the other GT thread..

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409352

Eric Holder said he wants to 'brainwash' everyone against guns (and that explains Fast&Furious!)

They don't want you to defend yourself. You are to wait for the police and if you get hurt, rapped, murdered, well that was for the good of 'society' as a whole (and that's pure socialism.)

Deaf

DScottHewitt
03-19-2012, 14:50
Here is my original thread that I asked Mr. Ayoob in GATE: Self Defense

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407347

If anyone could give me any input that would be greatly appreciated.

I really didn't want to throw the "what if" type situation out there, but in the particular circumstance I was referring to in my original question, you would be within arms length of the individual, making it easier to hit the smaller target with such a small gun and crude sights.


Also, provided the same circumstance if you were carrying a BUG or just a small gun in general and were presented with a lethal threat of a firearm, would you put rounds center mass hoping it would be enough to drop him, or try to take out his CNS?

I would also like to thank Mr. Ayoob again if he is reading this. I really appreciate this website, and all the information and expertise you all provide.

I have decided not to leave home without my G23 anymore, I don't get worried when I carry that out the door :)

Reading the title of the thread, I clicked expecting a Mall Ninja thread. Like you meant YOU taking a shot TO THE HEAD for some reason.....

Caver 60
03-20-2012, 20:11
To end this thread on my behalf, no, I wouldn't go for a head shot intentionally. I train in point shooting, and I think anyone serious about SD should as well. You also need to be able to use your sights, though.

You got it. I completely agree. Head shot would be last resort IMO.

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html

It's amazing what can be accomplished with point shooting when you've had lots of practice.

I'll also add its good to train on moving targets, both inanimate moving targets and live targets when possible. I've done a lot of both. Dispatched a lot of moving small animals under difficult conditions, like at night with marginal lighting. I've practiced point shooting for many decades.

And I've never fired a lazier equipped weapon in my life. I do have two night sight equipped pistols, but many times I've been using non night sight pistols like my P3AT or my Taurus PT145.

Of course those animals weren't shooting back. That would probably change things, but I still hope my skills would come through at close range. And I practice a lot using sights at longer ranges, including out to 100 yards. Yes even with the P3AT at 100 yards.

steveksux
03-20-2012, 20:31
Note Deputy Mayor Paul Quander said, "If you are armed, it escalates the situation. It is much better, in my opinion, to be scared, to be frightened, and even if you have to be, to be injured, but to walk away and survive. Because you can, youíll heal, and you can replace whatever was taken away. But the trauma of that gunshot to you or to someone else is traumatic. "

Deafwell, he has a point. I've never really considered how traumatic trauma can be.. :rofl:

Randy

4TS&W
03-21-2012, 16:58
It's all situational and you have to know your limitations for your abilities and incident. I know an officer who was being choked out while the offender was on top of him - he used a single shot to the head to save his own life.

Don't get too caught up in others fantasies how a self defense shooting could happen. It could be a very dynamic quickly unfolding situation where even using your sights was an after thought. Don't count on a whole lot of time to make a decision.

Think about this situation:
CHICAGO GUN SHOOTOUT IN FRONT OF STORE - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dITJx0Jd5Gs)

Not the idealistic shooting scenario many on this board think will happen to them. You can't count on people standing still in an old west duel.

It's all very situational...it's not to be ruled out completely in my opinion, but pretty rare where the opportunity would present itself in most situations. Just remember that the force is used to stop the threat - not to just kill someone. Like the above example I gave, the quickest way to incapacitate the offender was a head shot. Head shots aren't a "finishing move" like a video game.

I call BS.. None of these guys have foid cards, so those must be airsoft guns... :rofl:

The young Mom in Oklahoma shot her perp in the head.

Take the shot you have.... you may not have a good shot at COM. If you score, it should give you a leg up in the fight for survival.

maddy345
03-22-2012, 10:32
I'm a firm believer of "Shoot at the center of mass". If he is shooting at you from around a corner aand is poking his head out then you shoot center of mass (it would happen to be a head shot).

If he is squared up to you with no cover then you shoot center of mass still (chest shot).