Problem with my S&W 13-3 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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3rdgen40
03-10-2012, 10:28
I recently aquired a Smith model 13-3 at a local gun show.Took it out to shoot it last weekend and realized the single action trigger pull was extremely light.As in "hair trigger" light.So, after reading the "how to check a revolver" sticky I performed the test's.I can cock the hammer and push it off the sear with slight pressure.So, I am assuming someone got carried away with a trigger job on this gun.What parts do I need to replace to bring the trigger pull back to factory spec's? Are these parts still available?If not, are there any other options?This gun was purchased as a CCW, so this trigger pull is unacceptable.
What can I do ? :dunno:

UPDATE:
Finally got it back from S&W.They fixed the timing, but did nothing about the trigger pull.I asked them to check it and return to factory specs.So, I guess it's okay.Going to the range today and see how it shoots.

tgmr05
03-10-2012, 10:37
First, for ccw you should never be cocking the hammer manually, you should be shooting double action.

Second, glocks have spoiled folks with their parts interchangeability. A revolver may or may not function properly with swapped out parts. Without seeing it, etc. it could be more than one part messed up. A good gunsmith is your best bet. Get to know them, and they will help you learn what you need to know.


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3rdgen40
03-10-2012, 10:47
First, for ccw you should never be cocking the hammer manually, you should be shooting double action.


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Thanks for the "how to shoot a CCW " tip .:upeyes:

tgmr05
03-10-2012, 10:58
You are the one who said the hair trigger is unacceptable


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tgmr05
03-10-2012, 11:01
The single action hair trigger.


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tgmr05
03-10-2012, 11:03
The trouble you are speaking of affects the single action trigger pull, not necessarily the double action. You really should go to a gunsmith. They can more easily show you


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tgmr05
03-10-2012, 11:05
Then attend a firearms class of some sort so you can understand the advice given to you concerning single action/double action and revolvers in a ccw/self defense situation


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Tiro Fijo
03-10-2012, 11:19
It means that some knucklehead before you has jacked with the guts, probably the sear and that you need to have new parts fitted. That's the good news. The bad news is that S&W no longer carries nor makes these older forged parts as they now use MIM.


1. Start checking gunbroker for parts.

2. Start looking for a QUALIFIED gunsmith to install & FIT the parts needed.


You should have checked this out BEFORE buying the gun. Live & learn.

3rdgen40
03-10-2012, 11:19
..............................

TN.Frank
03-10-2012, 11:54
You may be able to stone/file the SA notch back into shape so it'll not push off and fix the problem without the need for any parts. If I had the gun here I could pull it apart and check it and probably get it so that you'd have a decent SA let off without it being dangerous. S&W revolvers really are quite easy to work on once you get the hang of it. Only other gun that I'm as comfortable working on is the 1911a1, they're pretty simple too. Good luck with getting it fixed, the M13's really are nice little carry guns and once you get your bugs worked out I'm sure you'll really fall in love with it.

tgmr05
03-10-2012, 11:57
Did not mean to offend you, just offering some truth. Most young shooters have no clue about revolvers other than what they have read. When I got out of law enforcement 20 years ago there were folks who had never shot revolvers. You would be shocked to know the number of folks, over the years prior to semiautos becoming the preferred le gun, who thought cocking the hammer was the way to properly shoot a da revolver.
Based on your questions, I gave you sound advice. Sorry it offended you.

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3rdgen40
03-10-2012, 12:40
You may be able to stone/file the SA notch back into shape so it'll not push off and fix the problem without the need for any parts. If I had the gun here I could pull it apart and check it and probably get it so that you'd have a decent SA let off without it being dangerous. S&W revolvers really are quite easy to work on once you get the hang of it. Only other gun that I'm as comfortable working on is the 1911a1, they're pretty simple too. Good luck with getting it fixed, the M13's really are nice little carry guns and once you get your bugs worked out I'm sure you'll really fall in love with it.
I will give that a try thanks.

CAcop
03-10-2012, 12:50
I would send it to Smith. They have worked on older revolvers before. What you are describing is called "push off." Smith might also be able to convert it to DAO if they can't fix the single action notch.

Bruce M
03-10-2012, 14:26
I'd try Smith and Wesson first and if not find a gunsmith (probably an older one) familiar with Smith revolvers. I don't doubt that if one knows what one is doing the repair may be easy but I have heard that some experience in fitting and dealing with geometry can help. A couple decades ago it seemed that there were about as many people who you paid who could screw up a revolver trying to do a trigger job as there were who could get it right.

3rdgen40
03-10-2012, 14:30
Upon further inspection, I just found that one cylinder is out of time.Think I will call S&W monday.

Bruce M
03-10-2012, 14:35
Best of luck with it. Smith and Wesson treated me very well and others who have had experience with multiple companies say their customer service is one of the best.

Chup
03-10-2012, 14:50
Who ever sold it to you was aware the gun had a problem. That's whats wrong about buying at a Gun Show. Dishonest people sell their junk there.

3rdgen40
03-10-2012, 14:52
Doing more research on timing.Is it possible for just one cylinder to be out of time.I have checked all 6 cylinders several times.It only happens on 1 out of 6.If the hand is worn, wouldn't every chamber be off?
This is the method I'm using to check timing.
Checking Timing on your Revolver, by www.ArmsPost.com - YouTube

pennlineman
03-10-2012, 15:22
The push off may be able to be fixed as TN.Frank said. If there is not enough metal left to square things back up then a hammer and/or trigger replacement may be needed.

The timing issue is more of a result of one of the ratchets on the cylinder being worn down a bit. An oversized hand may fix this as it would advance all six chambers into lockup quicker. If so I doubt you'll ever notice the difference between them unless that one ratchet is way out of wack. If that does not work in addition to the new hand you will need the ratchets cut so they they are all in sync provided there is enough metal there to do so. If not there is a possibility that the extractor may need replaced.

At this point I'd let S&W take care of it.

tgmr05
03-10-2012, 19:04
Good revolver smiths are hard to come by, anymore. It does sound like your best bet is to contact smith and wesson. Just know, you can wind up spending more than you paid for it....

Having one chamber out of time, typically is a sign of wear, and as others mentioned, it could be as easy a fix as stretching the hand, or as bad as needing extractor replacement. Your 13-3, could be from an era where smith had some quality issues, and wore a little faster than expected, too....

Look into top strap cutting, cylinder endshake, and forcing cone cracks/wear, too. If you find excessive play, a lot of cutting on topstrap, or too much wear on the forcing cone,.. you may be better off selling it. If the cone is cracked, you may be out of luck all together.

3rdgen40
03-11-2012, 09:04
Look into top strap cutting, cylinder endshake, and forcing cone cracks/wear, too. If you find excessive play, a lot of cutting on topstrap, or too much wear on the forcing cone,.. you may be better off selling it. If the cone is cracked, you may be out of luck all together.
Everything else is good.Locks up tight, no cylinder play.If I cock the hammer at a normal speed, it stays in time.If I cock it very slowly,then one cylinder stops out of time.

Line Rider
03-11-2012, 09:12
I'd send it to D.O.Reichard at the Sand Burr Ranch. He has reworked two J frames for me. He is a great guy.

http://www.sandburrgunranch.com/public/default.aspx

Sgt127
03-11-2012, 10:05
If you know any old cops in a major city around you, ask who the old range master/armorer was. If he is still around, I'll bet he has a couple bins of parts and the skill to time it back up.

We don't know why its pushing off. Something could have chipped, worn, or, some idiot went nuts with a stone or dremel tool in there. Alot of times, the parts are salvagable and can be repaired. If not, its parts replacement time. Most likely the hammer, thats where the single action notch is most likely to have been "polished" by a home gunsmith. Worst case, both the hammer and the trigger.

It could be even easier to fix. Does the gun have a REALLY light DA trigger? It could be that someone cut the trigger return spring and unscrewed the mainspring strain screw. Check the mainspring strain screw first. That may mimic push off. It may be backed out, or, someone cut it.

As far as the slow timing, again, easy fix with an oversized hand. If its just one charge hole carrying up slowly, I have (very lightly) peened that one ratchet and solved the problem.

Slightly slow carry up is rarely that big a problem. If you are shooting it, the last thousands of an inch of trigger travel will likely "click" it into place.

If you can't find a local smith, I would send it off to the factory. It will literally, be as good as new at a fairly reasonable cost.

Line Rider
03-11-2012, 10:15
If you know any old cops in a major city around you, ask who the old range master/armorer was. If he is still around, I'll bet he has a couple bins of parts and the skill to time it back up.

Then D.O. is you man. He first went to S&W armorer school in the late 1970's

BamaTrooper
03-11-2012, 15:29
First, for ccw you should never be cocking the hammer manually, you should be shooting double action.
...
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Never say never.
While it may open you to civil liability should you "hair trigger" it and negligently shoot someone, if shooting a person is justified, it is justified. A comment like ...never... would lead one to assume all SD revolvers should be DA.

tgmr05
03-11-2012, 16:01
The revolver in question is a model 13 smith, not a single action army or any other single action revolver. I stand by the selection of the word never, and will continue to do so. You are free to do otherwise.


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tgmr05
03-11-2012, 16:08
Let me put it this way. I never want to know of an accidental shooting due to hair trigger or other single action manipulation of a double action revolver because I said it was OK to do so. I, also, never want to be dragged into court for any type case/litigation for being the person who said such action was OK.

Deal with the justice system enough, and you will understand the second reason. The first is simply common sense, and/or my conscience.


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Wyoming
03-11-2012, 18:19
To answer your question. Either the hammer or trigger or both. It depend on what got "stoned".

It is a K frame Smith and there is still millions of parts available. I am not sure why you think there is a timing issue but fixing that and trigger is out of your league. If there is a good gunsmith in your area have him repair it. If not then send it to Smith & Wesson. They made it and they can fix it.

faawrenchbndr
03-12-2012, 04:08
Not to bust your ballz Randy,.....but trigger & timing should
have been checked before you bought it.


As for the repairs,........I'd call S&W.

As for using SA in a defensive situation, some instructors
are all for it. Some state use only DA,........it's your call,
not some unknown internet comando!

BamaTrooper
03-12-2012, 08:06
The revolver in question is a model 13 smith, not a single action army or any other single action revolver. I stand by the selection of the word never, and will continue to do so. You are free to do otherwise.


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I know what it is, I have several fixed sight K frames, but I see we are going to disagree on the issue of single action shooting.

If the OP wants to prevent that, he could have the SA notch removed and make his DA smooth.

A question though, do you recommend only DAO autos and revolvers for SD?

Andrewsky
03-12-2012, 08:13
The signal to noise ratio is low in this thread.

I don't think the OP cares about DA vs. SA theory so much as getting his firearm in proper condition.

BamaTrooper
03-12-2012, 08:16
The signal to noise ratio is low in this thread.

I don't think the OP cares about DA vs. SA theory so much as getting his firearm in proper condition.

I thought his issue was being resolved by sending it to an armorer and we were contiuning with the regularly scheduled hijacking:tongueout:

m2hmghb
03-12-2012, 10:18
While you're at it check the main spring screw to make sure it's tight. Some of the fools will loosen that to make for a better trigger pull not realizing that it will make for light strikes.

3rdgen40
03-12-2012, 16:41
I am not sure why you think there is a timing issue .See post #18

but fixing that and trigger is out of your league.You have no clue what league I am in...;)
Not to bust your ballz Randy,.....but trigger & timing should
have been checked before you bought it.

Yes Greg, I know that.The problem is that I bought it at a gun show and every gun that comes through the door gets a zip tie through the action and it can't be removed until you walk out the door.I checked it as best as I could and hoped for the best.Going to call S&W tomorrow hopefully.Work was crazy busy today so I never did get a chance to try calling.I plan to send it in and let them fix the timing and bring the trigger pull back into factory specs.

faawrenchbndr
03-12-2012, 16:54
One reason I quit buying at Shows,........S&W will get it back
into spec. Did you check the spring retaining screw?

faawrenchbndr
03-12-2012, 16:56
You have no clue what league I am in...;)




You're in a League all your own,.........:tongueout:

AA#5
03-12-2012, 17:06
See post #18
You have no clue what league I am in...;)

Yes Greg, I know that.The problem is that I bought it at a gun show and every gun that comes through the door gets a zip tie through the action and it can't be removed until you walk out the door.I checked it as best as I could and hoped for the best.Going to call S&W tomorrow hopefully.Work was crazy busy today so I never did get a chance to try calling.I plan to send it in and let them fix the timing and bring the trigger pull back into factory specs.

That's right - the zip tie thing. I've bought guns at gun shows before they started using the zip ties but I wouldn't buy one unless I could test the action.

Your reply reminded me of when I bought my new Wilson CQB 8 years ago. It had a zip tie. I told the salesman I wanted to check the trigger pull and the slide before spending what that gun cost. He did remove the zip tie after I assured him I planned on buying it.

3rdgen40
03-12-2012, 17:09
One reason I quit buying at Shows,........S&W will get it back
into spec. Did you check the spring retaining screw?
Yep, mainspring screw is tight.
You're in a League all your own,.........:tongueout:
:rofl:

faawrenchbndr
03-12-2012, 17:28
Randy,

How much heavier is DA over SA?

3rdgen40
03-12-2012, 18:02
Randy,

How much heavier is DA over SA?
I have no way to measure trigger pull, but I would guestimate DA to be 4-5# and SA about 1.5-2#.

faawrenchbndr
03-12-2012, 18:04
Even the DA seems VERY low,.......have you thought about replacing the spring?

Wyoming
03-12-2012, 20:48
That's right - the zip tie thing. I've bought guns at gun shows before they started using the zip ties but I wouldn't buy one unless I could test the action.

Your reply reminded me of when I bought my new Wilson CQB 8 years ago. It had a zip tie. I told the salesman I wanted to check the trigger pull and the slide before spending what that gun cost. He did remove the zip tie after I assured him I planned on buying it.

OK it time for the Big League for gun show purchasers. I make them cut the zip ties. On a revolver you don't have to snap it to try trigger. All the problems this gun has would have been obvious by cycling hammer all the way back and down to frame. While holding trigger back, hammer all the way down you check for "wiggle" in cylinder.

Most revolvers haven't mess with as bad as this gun. Who ever sold that gun has no integrity. He had to know it had problems.

I have never had anyone refused to cut a zip tie. If they did I would just walk.

BTW, I like buying used guns and have bought 100's over the years without any problems. You just have to know what you are looking at. If you are knew ask someone you trust to look over a used gun for you.

Wyoming
03-12-2012, 21:05
Doing more research on timing.Is it possible for just one cylinder to be out of time.I have checked all 6 cylinders several times.It only happens on 1 out of 6.If the hand is worn, wouldn't every chamber be off?
This is the method I'm using to check timing.
Checking Timing on your Revolver, by www.ArmsPost.com - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkyuD3EjN6Y)

Yes if the hand was worn all six would be out of timing. If only one ratchet on your ejection star is damaged could explain only one being out. BTW, it might not be noticeable while shooting because the momentum of the cylinder mass might be enough to carry it it lock up.

That is why you need to send it back to Smith. They made it in the first place and when they send it back to you it will be right. Their price will be fair.

It used to be that every police department had at least one certified Smith armorer. If you find one now he will probably be retired.

Please don't be like the SOB that sold it to you in the first place and sell it to someone else without telling them about it. When you get it back from Smith it might not be a great deal but it will be a great revolver for CCW. :thumbsup:

3rdgen40
03-13-2012, 03:56
OK it time for the Big League for gun show purchasers. I make them cut the zip ties. On a revolver you don't have to snap it to try trigger. All the problems this gun has would have been obvious by cycling hammer all the way back and down to frame. While holding trigger back, hammer all the way down you check for "wiggle" in cylinder.

Most revolvers haven't mess with as bad as this gun. Who ever sold that gun has no integrity. He had to know it had problems.

I have never had anyone refused to cut a zip tie. If they did I would just walk.

BTW, I like buying used guns and have bought 100's over the years without any problems. You just have to know what you are looking at. If you are knew ask someone you trust to look over a used gun for you.

Yes if the hand was worn all six would be out of timing. If only one ratchet on your ejection star is damaged could explain only one being out. BTW, it might not be noticeable while shooting because the momentum of the cylinder mass might be enough to carry it it lock up.

That is why you need to send it back to Smith. They made it in the first place and when they send it back to you it will be right. Their price will be fair.

It used to be that every police department had at least one certified Smith armorer. If you find one now he will probably be retired.

Please don't be like the SOB that sold it to you in the first place and sell it to someone else without telling them about it. When you get it back from Smith it might not be a great deal but it will be a great revolver for CCW. :thumbsup:
Looking back now,I realize I should have asked to cut the zip tie so I could have done a proper function check.The gun is tight and has been shot very little.Barely has a turn line on the cylinder,locks up tight.
I have no intentions of selling this gun.I like it and I intend to make it one of my carry guns when these issues are resolved by S&W.

Wyoming
03-13-2012, 08:25
Looking back now,I realize I should have asked to cut the zip tie so I could have done a proper function check.The gun is tight and has been shot very little.Barely has a turn line on the cylinder,locks up tight.
I have no intentions of selling this gun.I like it and I intend to make it one of my carry guns when these issues are resolved by S&W.

Good to hear that. Keep us posted when you get it back.

Ahmid
03-13-2012, 08:55
Send it back to Smith and Wesson if you want to carry it. No other choice.
I would not trust any smith to play with a good S&W I purchased for carry...

3rdgen40
03-17-2012, 06:25
You may be able to stone/file the SA notch back into shape so it'll not push off and fix the problem without the need for any parts.
Got it ! I removed the hammer and filed the notch enough to put a good edge on it.Doesn't push off now. Thanks Frank...:wavey:

tgmr05
03-17-2012, 08:50
One down, two more issues to go. If you checked the strain screw on the front of frame, and it was tight, then you need new springs, too. Here is link to some good replacements, I would get the le main spring, based on ccw purpose and the fact someone has monkeyed with internals.

http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=3&mID=58

Then you can work on the hand, or replace the hand with oversize, or peen extractor. I would do oversize hand, based on condition of other internal parts being monkeyed with, and not much wear from actual shooting.


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tgmr05
03-17-2012, 08:57
If you still have too light trigger after spring replacement, you will need to replace either trigger or hammer or both.


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3rdgen40
05-20-2012, 05:55
Send it back to Smith and Wesson if you want to carry it. No other choice.
I would not trust any smith to play with a good S&W I purchased for carry...
Well, I did end up sending it in about 6 weeks ago.Just received an e-mail from S&W with a tracking number.I will have it back Tue.They replaced the hand,cyl stop and center pin.I asked them to return the trigger pull to factory specs,but I'm not sure what they did about that.Can't wait to get it back and see how it shoots.

Bruce M
05-20-2012, 07:47
I will be curious as to how it shoots and at the risk of being nosey how much they charge. Hopefully it will function nicely.

WiskyT
05-20-2012, 07:48
Never say never.
While it may open you to civil liability should you "hair trigger" it and negligently shoot someone, if shooting a person is justified, it is justified. A comment like ...never... would lead one to assume all SD revolvers should be DA.

SA shooting is neither safe or necessary for defensive shooting. There were many documented incidents of shootings by police that were from accidental discharges of cocked revolvers that lead to lawsuits and dead people. Mas Ayoob wrote about them back when it was relevant. If you think you're going to decock a cocked gun after you decide you don't need to let a round go safely, you are definitely one cool John Wayne. And if you can't hit a target at 25 yards or more double action, you need to check your ability to even be carrying a gun in the first place.

There's a reason why NYPD, LAPD and others specified DAO for their guns. And no, you aren't any better at dealing with the adrenaline dump that accompanies gunfighting than their people are and in fact, since they are used to being under stress that the average person is not, you'll likely be worse at gunfighting.

3rdgen40
05-20-2012, 08:29
I will be curious as to how it shoots and at the risk of being nosey how much they charge. Hopefully it will function nicely.
Total charges came to $105.I will let you know how she shoots.

3rdgen40
05-25-2012, 15:12
update bump........................

3rdgen40
06-17-2012, 04:59
update bump........................
Guess no one cares...:crying:

Bruce M
06-17-2012, 06:17
Thanks sorry I did not see this before today. How does it shoot now?

3rdgen40
06-17-2012, 06:55
Thanks sorry I did not see this before today. How does it shoot now?
Shoots great now.They repleaced the hand with an oversized one,new cylinder stop and new center pin.Locks up tight, timing is perfect.Extracts spents cases much smoother now.I'm happy with it.

pennlineman
06-17-2012, 11:21
Guess no one cares...:crying:

I would not say that. :supergrin:

I'm very happy they fixed it up for you. Now you have a good shooter, enjoy!

AA#5
06-17-2012, 11:44
It means that some knucklehead before you has jacked with the guts, probably the sear and that you need to have new parts fitted. That's the good news. The bad news is that S&W no longer carries nor makes these older forged parts as they now use MIM.


1. Start checking gunbroker for parts.

2. Start looking for a QUALIFIED gunsmith to install & FIT the parts needed.


You should have checked this out BEFORE buying the gun. Live & learn.

I bought an old Mod. 629 Classic that was out of time. I sent it to S&W & they replaced the hand & extractor star. The cost was very reasonable. I don't care if they used MIM parts as long as it works.

Bruce M
06-17-2012, 13:26
Shoots great now.They repleaced the hand with an oversized one,new cylinder stop and new center pin.Locks up tight, timing is perfect.Extracts spents cases much smoother now.I'm happy with it.

That's great to hear. When I comsider what I am guessing is the cost of those parts and the skilled labor to install and fit them, your cost seems very good to me. I would guess perhaps twice that a decent gunsmith.

Tiro Fijo
06-17-2012, 22:33
I bought an old Mod. 629 Classic that was out of time. I sent it to S&W & they replaced the hand & extractor star. The cost was very reasonable. I don't care if they used MIM parts as long as it works.


The new MIM hammers don't fit the older S&W's. Many people now send in old revolvers only to be told that there are no parts available and to call Jack First, etc. Colt is even worse. There are no new hands available for Pythons for example. I know of one guy who waited a year & a half before his gunsmith found a suitable used replacement hand.


I have a Model 13-3 and baby it as I know my only source for parts is sporadic Gun Broker auctions. :whistling:

Glock40man
06-18-2012, 00:20
Shoots great now.They repleaced the hand with an oversized one,new cylinder stop and new center pin.Locks up tight, timing is perfect.Extracts spents cases much smoother now.I'm happy with it.

Awesome!:cool: