Off-duty security ofc. shooting, FL [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Mr. Blandings
03-12-2012, 23:22
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/3/6/man_killed_in_overni

Mr. Blandings
03-12-2012, 23:28
Florida law on Justifiable Use of Force - FSS Chapter 776. (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html)

Patchman
03-13-2012, 03:19
Seems to me the Baker brothers know they can drive whichever way they want on a public roadway and act like bullies because the vast majority of people are just not going to get involved.

Rick68FL
03-13-2012, 04:02
I have a feeling this one isn't going to end well...

GoBigOrange
03-13-2012, 05:11
The security guard will not be charged. Florida's "stand your ground" laws will protect him.

I'm not going to judge the shooter because as with any news story there will always be something missing. I will say that if I ever see someone driving that dangerously that I want to call it in, I'm not going to follow so closely that I don't leave a way to drive away safely.

HandyMan Hugh
03-13-2012, 05:32
Depending on the totality of the circumstances, the police could; declare it to be a justifiable use of deadly force, or recommend sending it to a grand jury.

LoadToadBoss
03-13-2012, 05:59
At some point when aggressive and agitated people are approaching your car, you need to roll up the windows, lock the doors and drive away.Everyone goes home alive. If you're boxed in, then call 911. However, the shooter's real mistake was to follow the guy all the way to his subdivision. If someone did that to me, I'd be agitated and might even approach the guy's car aggressively because he followed me to my house.

There's just something hinky about this.

xmanhockey7
03-13-2012, 07:21
At some point when aggressive and agitated people are approaching your car, you need to roll up the windows, lock the doors and drive away.Everyone goes home alive. If you're boxed in, then call 911. However, the shooter's real mistake was to follow the guy all the way to his subdivision. If someone did that to me, I'd be agitated and might even approach the guy's car aggressively because he followed me to my house.

There's just something hinky about this.

Why would you want to start a confrontation with someone?

RussP
03-13-2012, 07:34
Why would you want to start a confrontation with someone?Someone is following you as you're driving home. You turn into your subdivision, they follow. What would you do?

Patchman
03-13-2012, 08:30
How does the security guy know that's where the brothers live? And since they were in two (2) cars, did they box him in so he couldn't drive around them?

Article wasn't clear on that. Wait.

It seemed like the article noted that the vehicles came to a stop and Brandon Baker exited his vehicle and aggressively approached Browning's car.

I have to assume Brandon's car was stopped on the right lane/against curb. He got out his car on the driver's side, and approached along that side of the car (ie: along left lane).

The security guy would have to run him down to get away. But this was before anything started, so the security guy would be guilty of intentionally using a car to run someone down.

Sounded more like he followed them a little too closely and they trapped him.

James Dean
03-13-2012, 09:46
Whats that old saying? Oh Yeah If you go out looking for trouble chances are your going to find it.

LoadToadBoss
03-13-2012, 10:34
Why would you want to start a confrontation with someone?
I wouldn't start a confrontation, but I would be pretty upset if someone followed me all the way to my subdivision.

As a fact, that did happen to me several years ago. I noticed some guy following Mrs. LTB and me after we left a local restaurant. At first I thought nothing of it; just coincidence that they guy was making every turn and lane change I made. After a while I thought something was hinky (this was in the days before cell phones), so I drove into a neighboring subdivision. I knew the streets well and kept driving through the maze of streets until the guy was able to tell that I was on to him (went down the same streets multiple times). Eventually the guy stopped following and left the subdivision and we were able to proceed home.

I don't know what the deal was, but I was pretty scared and agitated. Nothing good could come from a direct confrontation, so I did my best to avoid it and everyone went home alive.

There are so many ways the OP story could have turned out better. Mr. Security Guard is not a traffic cop. Leave it be and MYOB.

plainsman
03-13-2012, 19:42
You can bet more happened then is being reported. Stand your ground was not meant for people that take it upon themselves to stalk others, track them down, or behave like criminals. His actions were one of a agressor, not a victim.

If you can't, if that is your intention, simply get a tag number without getting into a altercation, macing some people, and getting into situation where you have to shoot some unarmed person, who possibly committed some minor traffic offense which is not your duty to enforce, then maybe the security business is not your cup of tea....

I'll bet three things, one he did not show up for work the next day, two his boss will not really be happy to shot someone with the companie's gun, three, his promising security guard career is going down the toliet fast.

packsaddle
03-13-2012, 21:09
Here's how I see it playing out:

Browning was still in his vehicle and therefore not in imminent danger of being killed.

Browning true billed on murder charges.

Browning convicted of murder.

Sentencing will be equal to or less than 5 years prison.

Security career over.

Truffle8Shuffle
03-13-2012, 22:53
Here's how I see it playing out:

Browning was still in his vehicle and therefore not in imminent danger of being killed.

Browning true billed on murder charges.

Browning convicted of murder.

Sentencing will be equal to or less than 5 years prison.

Security career over.


I'm no lawyer but...

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle;

wprebeck
03-14-2012, 06:41
Someone is following you as you're driving home. You turn into your subdivision, they follow. What would you do?

I'd keep driving, instead of allowing said clown to know where I live. I'd then proceed to call local LE, identify myself, give a vehicle description of both my truck and the suspect vehicle, then drive to the nearest police station, if possible. Usually, the dispatcher/call taker will try to keep you on the phone, as to update your location to a responding officer.

Being that I "may" have made some unfriendly types dislike me over the years, I tend to pay attention when driving home, especially at night, after work.

plainsman
03-14-2012, 11:49
Maybe you didn't notice, or someone takes "issues" with whatever you did, mistakes you for someone, etc. There are all kinds of crazies out there. The onus is on the aggressor.

Big point is mr. off duty guard, chose to follow/stalk his victim to deal with whatever issue he perceived happened, "personally."
His phone worked after he had time to mace two people then shoot and kill one of them, so I would assume it was operational at the time he began following them. A simple phone call to the police, would have saved the shooter alot of trouble.

At the end of the day, the price this shooter will pay in legal, financial, criminal, and other costs, will simply not be worth it.

saxconnection
03-14-2012, 12:23
Someone is following you as you're driving home. You turn into your subdivision, they follow. What would you do?
I'd keep driving, instead of allowing said clown to know where I live. I'd then proceed to call local LE, identify myself, give a vehicle description of both my truck and the suspect vehicle, then drive to the nearest police station, if possible. Usually, the dispatcher/call taker will try to keep you on the phone, as to update your location to a responding officer.

Being that I "may" have made some unfriendly types dislike me over the years, I tend to pay attention when driving home, especially at night, after work.
:goodpost: EXACTLY!!!

I have been followed to the point of near my home. When I catch a tail, obvious at night, I let them follow me to the point that I am half a mile away from home. If they continue to follow me, I start a zig-zag pattern through the side streets. That does two things: lets them know I know they're following me, and wastes their time. If after the first few zig-zags, they are still following me, I go back to a main road.

I've only been truly followed once, and this technique worked. Turned out it was an old friend that recognized me, but it was still a bit scary, as it was before I got my CPL. I lost my friend with this technique, and didn't find out it was him until the next day. It was funny after the fact, but not so funny at the time.

Adam

PEC-Memphis
03-14-2012, 16:08
Originally Posted By LoadToadBoss

There's just something hinky about this.

Well, what does that mean Boss, 'hinky'? I'm taking the stairs and walking.

RussP
03-22-2012, 10:46
Why would you want to start a confrontation with someone?Someone is following you as you're driving home. You turn into your subdivision, they follow. What would you do?I'll ask this again... What would you do?

RussP
03-22-2012, 10:51
As a fact, that did happen to me several years ago. I noticed some guy following Mrs. LTB and me after we left a local restaurant. At first I thought nothing of it; just coincidence that they guy was making every turn and lane change I made. After a while I thought something was hinky (this was in the days before cell phones), so I drove into a neighboring subdivision. I knew the streets well and kept driving through the maze of streets until the guy was able to tell that I was on to him (went down the same streets multiple times). Eventually the guy stopped following and left the subdivision and we were able to proceed home.

I don't know what the deal was, but I was pretty scared and agitated. Nothing good could come from a direct confrontation, so I did my best to avoid it and everyone went home alive.I'd keep driving, instead of allowing said clown to know where I live. I'd then proceed to call local LE, identify myself, give a vehicle description of both my truck and the suspect vehicle, then drive to the nearest police station, if possible. Usually, the dispatcher/call taker will try to keep you on the phone, as to update your location to a responding officer.

Being that I "may" have made some unfriendly types dislike me over the years, I tend to pay attention when driving home, especially at night, after work.:goodpost: EXACTLY!!!

I have been followed to the point of near my home. When I catch a tail, obvious at night, I let them follow me to the point that I am half a mile away from home. If they continue to follow me, I start a zig-zag pattern through the side streets. That does two things: lets them know I know they're following me, and wastes their time. If after the first few zig-zags, they are still following me, I go back to a main road.

I've only been truly followed once, and this technique worked. Turned out it was an old friend that recognized me, but it was still a bit scary, as it was before I got my CPL. I lost my friend with this technique, and didn't find out it was him until the next day. It was funny after the fact, but not so funny at the time.

Adam:cool:

glockurai
03-22-2012, 16:52
I'm no lawyer but...

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle;

Reaching into an occupied vehicle is considered an occupied burglary, which is a forcible felony. That is covered under SYG. The problem is that Brown may have instigated the problem. It is going to be an interesting case.

Tiro Fijo
03-22-2012, 17:31
So how do all you Gold Shield detectives know that the man who was shot KNEW that he was being followed and that it was not merely someone going the same direction? The info you have is ex post facto. If this happened to me I would do nothing. How do I know that maybe it's not the brother in law of my neighbor coming to visit him? Some of you seem to have amazing powers of telepathy which I don't. :upeyes:


Remember that this is the info given by deputies AFTER the incident. Why didn't the man who thought he was being followed call 911 and not try to be John Wayne and "show the other fella a thing or two"?

Moral of the story: don't get out of your car & try to be a bad hombre. :wavey:

bug
03-22-2012, 17:39
never mind the already said it,

ballr4lyf
03-22-2012, 19:14
Disparity of force belonged to the two brothers in this case. Even if the brother was trying to pull the victim out of the attack, the victim continued his attack after being pepper sprayed. Trapped in a car, with an enraged man coming after him who has already been pepper sprayed, it is reasonable to believe that the victim by himself was already disparately stronger and able to cause serious bodily harm to him. Also considering the violence of the moment, it would be darn near impossible to determine what the second person's intentions were, as well it would be reasonable to believe that the second person was a willing accomplice.

I don't see any charges being filed in this case. I could be wrong. It really would be based on additional evidence we don't have... Such as, was there a clear avenue of exit for the shooter, etc.

ijacek
03-22-2012, 20:40
These days everybody has a cell phone. Dial 911 provide your direction of travel, describe the vehicle and stay on the phone until the LEO's arrive, or the other driver turns. But oh, no, he is following the vehicle, that mind you is driving recklessly, away from the main road and into the apartment complex, and at no point does he call 911. Instead he [lone off duty armed security guard] puts himself in this situation and then for whatever reason pepper sprays the guy, then shoots him. Guess rolling up his windows, not stopping and driving away never crossed his mind.

People AVOIDANCE! is your best and cheapest SECURITY MEASURE! A CCW or a status as an armed Security Officer does not automatically gives you a license to solve all of the civilization's problems.

And, Security guard on his way home from work at 0200 in the morning should have a little bit more common sense than the average folk.

RussP
03-22-2012, 21:17
So how do all you Gold Shield detectives know that the man who was shot KNEW that he was being followed and that it was not merely someone going the same direction? The info you have is ex post facto.Perhaps, just perhaps, and I might be wrong, the indicators are that Mr. Baker stopped before reaching his destination, got out of his car and came back to Mr. Browning's car. I'd guess he'd figured out Browning was following him. Exactly what did Browning do to get Baker's attention? :dunno: If this happened to me I would do nothing. How do I know that maybe it's not the brother in law of my neighbor coming to visit him?At least you've decided that doing nothing is good and right for you. Some of you seem to have amazing powers of telepathy which I don't. :upeyes:Telepathy? No. Awareness and experience, yes.Remember that this is the info given by deputies AFTER the incident. Why didn't the man who thought he was being followed call 911 and not try to be John Wayne and "show the other fella a thing or two"?

Moral of the story: don't get out of your car & try to be a bad hombre. :wavey:Unless he was talking to his brother in the third car, we'll never know why he stopped and went all Rambo on Browning.

My plan, and the plan of others here, and the plan I would strongly encourage others to follow is simple: Don't stop driving until you are certain the car is not following you. Drive to a well lighted populated area with witnesses or to your local PD. Can't do that, call 911 and get someone sent to you.

Tiro Fijo, what would you do if you reached your home, pulled into your drive, and the car stopped right in front of your house? What then...?

Mr. Blandings
03-23-2012, 00:46
This article: http://palmharbor.patch.com/articles/security-guard-was-triggerman-in-deadly-shooting#photo-9294323 has several photos of the scene, although I don't know if the vehicles were moved post-shooting.

NEOH212
03-23-2012, 03:26
Maybe you didn't notice, or someone takes "issues" with whatever you did, mistakes you for someone, etc. There are all kinds of crazies out there. The onus is on the aggressor.

Big point is mr. off duty guard, chose to follow/stalk his victim to deal with whatever issue he perceived happened, "personally."
His phone worked after he had time to mace two people then shoot and kill one of them, so I would assume it was operational at the time he began following them. A simple phone call to the police, would have saved the shooter alot of trouble.

At the end of the day, the price this shooter will pay in legal, financial, criminal, and other costs, will simply not be worth it.

:perfect10:

Bill Lumberg
03-23-2012, 06:28
Guard was in the wrong on this one.