So, You're Going To A Gunfight! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Arc Angel
03-14-2012, 09:08
:) I'd like your opinion.

(1) You know you're going to be in a pistol gunfight; which pistol would you rather have, one with a ported or a nonported barrel? Tell me why?

(2) You're shooting in a self-defense style pistol match. Which pistol would you rather have, now? Ported or nonported? Again, tell me why?

(3) Are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to using either design?

HoldHard
03-14-2012, 09:24
If I know I'm going to a gunfight, I bring my rifle and all my friends that have rifles.

Handguns are used to fight your way to your rifle.

In response to your questions:

1) The one I have on me at the moment. I don't go looking for gunfights so it would be a non-ported G21 that's on my hip.

2) I shoot competition with a compensated racegun which would be considered ported. Less muzzle lift, the red dot stays within the "A" zone of the target allowing quick follow-up shots. The entire gun is designed so it is able to shoot very, very quickly but is the furthest thing from a concealed carry weapon, especially with the 29 round "big stick" magazine sticking out of the grip....

3) Advantages: Less muzzle climb. Disadvantages: Muzzle flash directed up in a low light situation is going to temporarily blind you. Not good in a self-defense situation.

My 2 cents....

HH

OctoberRust
03-14-2012, 09:29
He specifically said if a Pistol is all you can choose. So enough with the gun store commando crap sayings.

And for me would depend on the caliber. If it was the .40 I'd prefer the comp for both questions. Why? The flames aren't nearly as "distracting" as many here claim them to be. In fact many times there all no flames you can see coming from the ports.

For 9mm? The recoil seems tame enough for me where it doesn't seem like it'd matter, that being said though, I've never tried a ported glock in 9mm, maybe it makes just as big of a difference in muzzle rise as the .40 glocks experience.

of course YMMV.

HoldHard
03-14-2012, 09:41
He specifically said if a Pistol is all you can choose. So enough with the gun store commando crap sayings.Maybe it's different in Texas but in Detroit, invitations don't usually get sent out for gunfights.... they happen numerous times on a daily basis... all by themselves....

HH

CLoft239
03-14-2012, 09:48
Maybe it's different in Texas but in Detroit, invitations don't usually get sent out for gunfights.... they happen numerous times on a daily basis... all by themselves....

HH

What? You mean y'all don't meet out front the saloon at high noon? ... Where have I been all this time?

Heh.

As for the question, I would simply have to go whatever I'm carrying at the time. I change up between a Glock 31 .357sig, and a Sig SP2022 in .40cal flavor. I won't carry a gun on duty until I've had many hours of range time with it, am comfortable with it, and know it's reliable.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

ChuteTheMall
03-14-2012, 09:50
Non-ported; sometimes gunfights involve not only close retention shooting, but actual grappling & groundfighting & contact. I want all those hot gases following the bullet, not blinding me.

Train as you fight, so no gamesmanship gadgets to reinforce bad habits.

jmoore
03-14-2012, 09:51
No way - no how!

If forced to fire from a close in "retention" position (think of a classic "speed rock") - the flash will be directed straight into your face & eyes!

jm

Deployment Solu
03-14-2012, 09:53
G30SF/G36 Hybrid, non-ported. Nothing wrong with a ported or comped gun as long as you have chosen your ammo wisely. Some ammo brands produce way more muzzle flash due to powder choice.

Rumbler_G20
03-14-2012, 10:01
Maybe it's different in Texas but in Detroit, invitations don't usually get sent out for gunfights.... they happen numerous times on a daily basis... all by themselves....

HH



Psssst, read your signature. :blondmoment:

Radian
03-14-2012, 10:15
If I know I am going requesting several AH64s to provide overwatch and someone who can drop 155 in an orderly manner...

To answer you question.

Same gun, different caliber. Competition based on IDPA rules would be some 9mm glock 19 sized or better.

If it were people shootin with a pistol cartridge any major round (357 sig is my choice, all about same) will do the job in a pinch.

Ported non ported not going to be a deciding factor to me.

to each their own.

M&P15T
03-14-2012, 10:15
3) Advantages: Less muzzle climb. Disadvantages: Muzzle flash directed up in a low light situation is going to temporarily blind you. Not good in a self-defense situation.


For 9mm? The recoil seems tame enough for me where it doesn't seem like it'd matter...

:rofl:

Nothing is more miss-understood, or straight out commanding of ignorant posting, than porting.

-Porting will not blind you, unless we're talking big mutha cartridges.
-Porting does nothing for recoil.

faawrenchbndr
03-14-2012, 10:28
If I can not take a carbine, I would take a high cap pistol.
9mm BHP would do nicely

OctoberRust
03-14-2012, 10:39
Maybe it's different in Texas but in Detroit, invitations don't usually get sent out for gunfights.... they happen numerous times on a daily basis... all by themselves....

HH


Maybe it's different in Detroit, but there is this thing called a hypothetical question.

ETA - It's asked a lot on the internet. I guess they just recently let you guys have the interwebs over there.

ChuteTheMall
03-14-2012, 10:40
If I can not take a carbine, I would take a high cap pistol.
9mm BHP would do nicely

But, ported or non-ported?

HoldHard
03-14-2012, 10:40
:rofl:

Nothing is more miss-understood, or straight out commanding of ignorant posting, than porting.

-Porting will not blind you, unless we're talking big mutha cartridges.

If you happen to re-read my original post, a low light situation was mentioned. Personally the picture below looks strange (elapsed time photograph?) or shot with a load that has a specific type of powder to produce the "dragon breath" effect.

I've seen flames come out of a barrel but nothinig that looked like this. It would ignite the paper targets and burn the range down... :supergrin:

http://atlantisarms.com/images/AtlantisArms/Glock%20Compensated%20vent%20example.jpg

HH

OctoberRust
03-14-2012, 10:41
No way - no how!

If forced to fire from a close in "retention" position (think of a classic "speed rock") - the flash will be directed straight into your face & eyes!

jm


interesting. I've hip fired all types of hot loads from my G23c with no hot gases blinding me or burning my face. I must be superman. :rofl:

nursetim
03-14-2012, 11:16
If I know before hand I am going to need a handgun, I would pick either a draco short or a 629.

M2 Carbine
03-14-2012, 11:23
I've had a few ported handguns and I don't like them. Basically I want all the blast and fire going forward.

As far as the handgun. There are a lot of choices but I think I'd be satisfied with my ATI 92C as much as anything, during daylight. In low light I'd want one of my laser equipped handguns.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/ATC92.jpg


If I can "cheat" a little about "handguns". This would be my handgun choice against another handgun.:)
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/PLRCarbinesling-1.jpg

M&P15T
03-14-2012, 12:38
If you happen to re-read my original post, a low light situation was mentioned. Personally the picture below looks strange (elapsed time photograph?) or shot with a load that has a specific type of powder to produce the "dragon breath" effect.

I've seen flames come out of a barrel but nothinig that looked like this. It would ignite the paper targets and burn the range down... :supergrin:

http://atlantisarms.com/images/AtlantisArms/Glock%20Compensated%20vent%20example.jpg

HH

That picture is photo-shopped, and the main reason so many people think you'll be blinded by a ported pistol at night. Notice the slide isn't moving?

I've shot my G17C in low-light/night conditions....you don't see a thing, especially with quality SD ammo, which has flash-suppressant.

Anyhow, to answer the OPs question, a ported pistol like my G17C is always the right answer. Any mechanical advantage that gets you back on target quicker for faster follow-up shots should be taken.

High Altitude
03-14-2012, 12:48
I wouldn't worry about flash, but I would worry about gases hitting me from a close rentention firing.

Personally, I would go with the non ported option.

M&P15T
03-14-2012, 12:53
I wouldn't worry about flash, but I would worry about gases hitting me from a close rentention firing.

Personally, I would go with the non ported option.

What ported pistols have you owned?

fastbolt
03-14-2012, 13:08
If you happen to re-read my original post, a low light situation was mentioned. Personally the picture below looks strange (elapsed time photograph?) or shot with a load that has a specific type of powder to produce the "dragon breath" effect.

I've seen flames come out of a barrel but nothinig that looked like this. It would ignite the paper targets and burn the range down... :supergrin:

http://atlantisarms.com/images/AtlantisArms/Glock%20Compensated%20vent%20example.jpg

HH

In one of my Glock armorer classes the instructor mentioned that a cutting torch flame had been superimposed on a C model Glock to achieve the brochure image.

I've owned and used a number of revolvers & pistols with ported barrels over the years.

One of them was a I once owned a Safari Arms Match Master .45 pistol with the Schumann Hybrid Compensator Porting system, or whatever they liked to call it. This involved a modified barrel that had the sequentially placed circular ports, of increasing size, cut into a raised rib that was part of the barrel, which fit within a long U-cut in the top of the slide. The gasses were vented directly from the barrel to the air, without having to jump to reach through any slide cuts. It worked remarkably well.

If you were standing off to the side you could see a huge line of flaming gasses blending into a single large fireball, but this happened too fast for me to see it when I was the one behind the gun, shooting it, unless it was completely dark ... and even then it wasn't blinding. Just noticeable. Not anything like shooting a .357 Magnum revolver, though.

While I'm disinclined to participate in fantasy football or gunfight scenarios, I would offer that ported handguns do present some considerations when it comes to using them as dedicated defensive weapons, in order to best avoid exposure to the hot gasses and any shaved debris (jacketing, etc) being directed out of the porting. For most folks, they're probably best employed as gaming guns being fired at arm's length.

I think I only have 3 ported handguns left in my collection (all revolvers), and they've all served me as off-duty weapons over the years. I did, however, recognize the inherent issues involved with ported barrels (much like I keep in mind the hot gasses & potential debris that can be directed from a barrel/cylinder gap ;) ), and I trained & practiced to best use them while keeping safety considerations in mind.

SC Tiger
03-14-2012, 13:15
:) I'd like your opinion.

(1) You know you're going to be in a pistol gunfight; which pistol would you rather have, one with a ported or a nonported barrel? Tell me why?

(2) You're shooting in a self-defense style pistol match. Which pistol would you rather have, now? Ported or nonported? Again, tell me why?

(3) Are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to using either design?

1) Non-ported - it's what I'm familiar with.

Reality - every d@mn gun I can find. Pistols, rifles, machine guns, if I can get my hands on a 120mm smoothbore gun and/or and ICBM Submarine, I'm bringing them. Or hit the BG with a rifle shot from somewhere he doesn't expect me to be.

Real Reality - if I know where the gunfight is going to be, I'm gonna be somewhere else!

2 and 3 - no idea.

skeeter7
03-14-2012, 13:47
:deadhorse:

Kulprit
03-14-2012, 14:12
As a 23c owner, I cannot believe the ill-informed and unknowingly stupid opinions some people hold about C model glocks. From a C owner I will state the following fact:

Unless you put your eyeball over the ports while firing, C model glocks have ABSOLUTELY no ill effect on your vision in ANY situation.

ratf51
03-14-2012, 15:07
If I knew beforehand that I was going to be in a gun fight I would make sure to wear some tacticool Depends.

ChuteTheMall
03-14-2012, 20:39
I suppose a serious recoil wimp might depend on his barrels having extra holes, but any semi-auto between 9mm and .45acp doesn't recoil enough to worry any man and most adult women.

I can't think of any large professional organizations that issue compensated pistols to those who may actually go in harms way, but there is quite a list of those who don't (US Military, FBI, US Marshal Service, US Secret Service, and every police agency I know of; yes, even for women).

Again, if we are talking about gunfighting, which means fighting with guns, your favorite retention position might not be available; you might be on your back with your favorite arm broken. You won't be flinching from the recoil.
The last thing you need in a real fight is a bunch of sissy vents in your barrel; add extra vents to your opponent instead.
:nutcheck:

Arc Angel
03-15-2012, 07:56
I suppose a serious recoil wimp might depend on his barrels having extra holes, but any semi-auto between 9mm and .45acp doesn't recoil enough to worry any man and most adult women.

I can't think of any large professional organizations that issue compensated pistols to those who may actually go in harms way, but there is quite a list of those who don't (US Military, FBI, US Marshal Service, US Secret Service, and every police agency I know of; yes, even for women).

Again, if we are talking about gunfighting, which means fighting with guns, your favorite retention position might not be available; you might be on your back with your favorite arm broken. You won't be flinching from the recoil. The last thing you need in a real fight is a bunch of sissy vents in your barrel; add extra vents to your opponent instead.

OK, this is as good a place as any for me to jump back in. First, I’d like to thank everyone who took the time to make a serious reply. I appreciate the opportunity to consider a variety of different views. Second, Chute, I’ve always liked your posts and comments; and, even though it might not seem like it, now, I like your comments, here, too. You’ve given me a perfect opportunity to come right on out and say what I really think:

I suppose a serious recoil wimp might depend on his barrels having extra holes, but any semi-auto between 9mm and .45acp doesn't recoil enough to worry any man and most adult women.

Know what? I was never old before; so, like you I really didn’t know what to expect once I finally got there. I never had a heart attack before, either; so I, also, had no idea how my shooting skills would be affected after my health turned out to be less than perfect.

Now that both of these things have happened to me, and to my complete surprise, I think I’ve become, something of a, ‘recoil wimp’. I’ve fired 9mm and 45 ACP pistols all of my long life, and in all different barrel configurations, too. Guess what? Today it’s not as easy for me to shoot a pistol as it used to be; consequently, I’m forced to agree with you: A, ‘recoil wimp’ is, indeed, going to benefit from the use of a pistol with some sort of ported barrel.

However, my present situation isn’t too different from other pistol shooting experiences of my lifetime - The ones where I used ported pistol barrels to do some phenomenally fast and accurate pistol shooting. (The kind of pistol shooting that, twice in my life, brought me standing ovations from a watching audience.)

Unlike many of today's heavily practiced pistol competition professionals, I was able to do this kind of exceptional pistol shooting with no more than the expenditure of between 1,000 and 1,500 fired rounds per month! (For me and my ported pistols I always thought that was pretty good!) Does this qualify me as a, ‘lifelong pistol wimp’? Well, maybe; but I’m able to think of a whole lot of people who would never dared to say something like that to my face. ;)

Consequently, I don’t think the, ‘pistol wimp’ comment is, either, germane or an entirely fair remark.

I can't think of any large professional organizations that issue compensated pistols to those who may actually go in harms way, but there is quite a list of those who don't (US Military, FBI, US Marshal Service, US Secret Service, and every police agency I know of; yes, even for women).

OK, here, I couldn’t agree with you more! However, if there’s one thing I’ve learned about all bureaucracies and all bureaucratic thinking it’s that, intellectually speaking, the kind of thinking bureaucrats do, as well as the type of innovations (changes) they invariably come up with, are predominantly academically stultified and, over time, ultimately self-defeating.

Bureaucracies are seldom successful innovators or adaptors - not in their generally applicable polices, and certainly not in anything as particularly as handgun usage and technology, as well. In other words, if you want to discover what’s the, ‘latest and greatest’ in virtually any technology or field of endeavor you’re going to have to look to the greater mass of the imaginative and unrestricted general public.

Want an example? How about Jeff Cooper and his shooting associates at Big Bear Lake, CA. If I were to follow your line of reasoning I would expect modern combat pistol technology, things like two-handed pistol holds, the predominant use of semiautomatics, and Weaver stances, to have come from: The FBI, Quantico, or the Army Marksmanship Training Unit; but, that didn’t happen - Did it! It took a group of private citizens largely armed with semiautomatic handguns to completely, even radically, change the FBI’s handgun shooting methodology; and, thereby, the handgun usage and technology of every police agency in America.

Again, if we are talking about gunfighting, which means fighting with guns, your favorite retention position might not be available; you might be on your back with your favorite arm broken. You won't be flinching from the recoil. The last thing you need in a real fight is a bunch of sissy vents in your barrel; add extra vents to your opponent instead.

Damned right we are! But, there’s a big difference between fighting with: A pistol, or fighting with your hands, an impact weapon, or a blade. I don’t know about you; but I didn’t spend more than 30 years as a practicing martial artist in order to attempt to engage an opponent - AT SPITTING DISTANCE - with a handgun. That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Besides I’ve, now, watched dozens and dozens of police confrontations and fights recorded by onboard dash cams. It is obvious to me that, once an officer is physically engaged, it becomes extremely difficult for most officers to successfully draw and/or use a handgun.

The big gunzine and internet objection to using a pistol with a ported barrel is always, ‘facial splatter’. However, if someone is lucky enough to be able to successfully fire his pistol while grappling I would suggest that any splatter is going to be absorbed between both combatants’ bodies. From what I've seen so far it’s highly unlikely that a closely engaged pistolero is going to be able to mount his pistol into body-pressing retention between his heart and his nose the way students are taught to do in many popular pistol training schools.

So, ‘Why’ do so many pistol combat training facilities teach close retention pistol shooting from in front of the heart or (literally) right under a person’s nose? I certainly wasn’t trained to, either, grapple or pistol fight that way! It’s just my personal opinion, of course, but I personally believe that a majority of lightly experienced pistol shooting students need to be offered gun training exercises that encourage students to easily hit the target and acquire a sense of (albeit misguided) self-confidence with a handgun.

‘If you’re favorite retention position isn’t available’ then don’t be stupid and attempt to draw your gun. Do something really smart, and stomp on a shin, strike the side of a knee, (Elbows are good, too!) or grab your opponent’s hair while you stick your thumb, deeply, into his eye. (Breaking individual fingers is, also, another self-defense technique I always liked!)

All pulling a gun at such close quarters is going to do for you is give the other guy a golden opportunity to get his hands on your weapon. ‘If you’re on your back and your favorite arm is broken’, well, let’s be perfectly honest: You’ve already made, at least, one serious confrontational mistake; and you’re already thoroughly screwed.

There’s internet gunfighting; and there's gunfighting school gunfighting. Then there’s, also, real world gunfighting combat. Trust me on this! The two are NOT the same thing. I’ve been using pistols with muzzle-ported barrels for more than 35 years and as well as through a number of armed confrontations.

When I was in my prime nobody, and I do mean nobody, would have wanted to screw around with me or my ported pistol. This is one of the principal things I see wrong with, ‘gunzines’ and the internet: Both are loaded with a very great deal of: personal prejudice, minimal experience, and glitzy disinformation.

None of which may be genuinely relied upon by a desperate combatant in order to survive during a real world altercation. What looks good during an IDPA or IPSC pistol shooting match may have little or no genuine usefulness to keeping you alive on the street.

This is what my own life experience has taught me; and, this is how I regard the authentic effectual use of combat pistol porting. God gave you a brain; and He expects you to use it. It's not clever to fail to exploit every opportunity, or every advantage, that presents itself in order to succeed.

In my experience pistol barrel muzzle-porting is one of those advantages. You're not going to set your clothes on fire; you're not going to lose any more of your night vision than any other type of handgun might cause you to do; and used properly (Like canting the muzzle to the outer edged of your strong side) you're not going to splatter your face - either. Not if you do everything else right!

Rumbler_G20
03-15-2012, 08:21
As a 23c owner, I cannot believe the ill-informed and unknowingly stupid opinions some people hold about C model glocks. From a C owner I will state the following fact:

Unless you put your eyeball over the ports while firing, C model glocks have ABSOLUTELY no ill effect on your vision in ANY situation.


I'm sorry, but this can not stand.

Flash, be it from the muzzle or the ports, is an effect of the AMMUNITION used. To say

Unless you put your eyeball over the ports while firing, C model glocks have ABSOLUTELY no ill effect on your vision in ANY situation.

is patently false. Irresponsibly false. :steamed:

TN.Frank
03-15-2012, 08:30
Ports are places for Ships to Dock at. Don't think they're really need on most "normal" handgun calibers. Of course if you're talking a 500 S&W Mag, well then you just may need it to be ported.:cool:

M&P15T
03-15-2012, 08:32
I suppose a serious recoil wimp might depend on his barrels having extra holes, but any semi-auto between 9mm and .45acp doesn't recoil enough to worry any man and most adult women.

The ignorance (lack of knowledge and experience with) ported pistols is strong with this post. Porting does nothing for recoil. The rest of your post, purposely omitted, just highlights how little you know about porting.

I'm sorry, but this can not stand.

Flash, be it from the muzzle or the ports, is an effect of the AMMUNITION used. To say

is patently false. Irresponsibly false. :steamed:

The point to be made is that quality SD ammo has flash suppressant in it. There's no blinding flash, no loss of night vision, etc. If you get into cartridges like .35MAG, then yes there might be some serious flash. But with the cartridges that the G17/22/31/19/23/32 are chambered for (and also .45ACP), muzzle flash in dark conditions is not a problem with quality SD ammo.

So, the statements were NOT false.

Rumbler_G20
03-15-2012, 08:39
First picture is 9mm with high dollar defensive ammo. Second is .40 S&W with wallyworld elcheapo.

Can you say "flashbulb effect"? BOTH these shooters commented that they couldn't see "anything for seconds after" pulling the trigger.

http://www.canopy.net/arms/9mm.muzzleflash.jpg




http://www.canopy.net/arms/40sw.muzzleflash.jpg


All I ask is that prior to making your own decisions in this regard you do your homework. Go shoot in the dark.:dunno:

BuckyP
03-15-2012, 08:42
Well if I know and it has to be a handgun, I guess ported!

http://www.pollardfamily.net/al/svopen.jpg

:tongueout:

High Altitude
03-15-2012, 09:35
What ported pistols have you owned?

I have shot plenty of ported pistols, most where competition pistols.

My experience has been that the flash is a non issue, but there is definitely some gases coming out the top of the gun. I personally would not want to fire a ported pistol from a close retention position. The top of the pistol is directly under your face.

M&P15T
03-15-2012, 09:52
First picture is 9mm with high dollar defensive ammo. Second is .40 S&W with wallyworld elcheapo.

Can you say "flashbulb effect"? BOTH these shooters commented that they couldn't see "anything for seconds after" pulling the trigger.

http://www.canopy.net/arms/9mm.muzzleflash.jpg




http://www.canopy.net/arms/40sw.muzzleflash.jpg


All I ask is that prior to making your own decisions in this regard you do your homework. Go shoot in the dark.:dunno:


Are either of those pistols ported? Doesn't look like it to my eyes.

M&P15T
03-15-2012, 09:54
I have shot plenty of ported pistols, most where competition pistols.

My experience has been that the flash is a non issue, but there is definitely some gases coming out the top of the gun. I personally would not want to fire a ported pistol from a close retention position. The top of the pistol is directly under your face.

Neither would I, but that is the only draw-back to a ported pistol. I will take that draw-back any day, since the over-all shooting performance of a ported pistol is worth dealing with it.

.45Super-Man
03-15-2012, 10:21
Muzzle brakes are standard equipment on everything from sub machineguns to assault rifles. So why should a fighting handgun not benefit from porting as well?

fastbolt
03-15-2012, 11:35
Can you say "flashbulb effect"? BOTH these shooters commented that they couldn't see "anything for seconds after" pulling the trigger.

... All I ask is that prior to making your own decisions in this regard you do your homework. Go shoot in the dark.:dunno:
[/CENTER]

It's a reasonable suggestion to find a range where you can practice shooting in reduced/low light conditions. The direction of the light (or lights), and the shooter's positional relationship to the light, can create some potential for different experiences.

When folks are engaging a threat target that's illuminated by some good light source (directed or non-directed environmental light source, flashlight, headlights, street light, etc), their "night vision" is already compromised by the light. The muzzle flash may startle them, though. (Or maybe not, since their sensory focus may be affected and degraded.) Becoming accustomed to it is probably going to be helpful, so it's one less potential distraction that might be problematic under stress.

Not all commercial ammunition produces the same muzzle flash signature, either. Some are noticeable, and some are barely noticeable ... by the shooter.

As I've observed other shooters complete qual courses of fire under reduced light conditions I've been able to clearly observe their muzzle flashes, but when I was the one shooting, using the same ammunition, I often wasn't able to easily and consistently see the same muzzle flash signature. Just depends.

Sure, when I've been shooting my .357's & .44's I've experienced noticeably larger flash signatures, but those were also more noticeable because of the hot gasses exiting the B/C gaps.

The escaping hot gasses, and the potential for any debris to be contained within those gasses, has always been much more of a consideration, for me, than anything having to do with the flash signature.

Then again, as a long time revolver shooter, and someone who carried issued .357 Magnum revolvers on-duty and .357 & .44 Magnum revolvers off-duty, I learned to adjust to the muzzle flash signatures many years ago. None of my 9, .40 or .45 pistols have ever produced the same sort of muzzle flash signatures as those Magnum revolvers. ;) Not even that Safari Arms Match Master, or a ported P90 I used to shoot with +P loads (not mine, but one I had access to for a while).

This is something for each individual shooter to consider and determine for themselves, though.

OctoberRust
03-15-2012, 13:28
I'm sorry, but this can not stand.

Flash, be it from the muzzle or the ports, is an effect of the AMMUNITION used. To say



is patently false. Irresponsibly false. :steamed:


You really don't know what you're talking about. Once you buy/rent a compensated pistol and shoot from a retention position then come talk to the big boys. For now, you're just making yourself look like an arm chair commando who plays too much call of duty.

Arc Angel
03-17-2012, 15:57
The most recent issue of, ‘Combat Handguns’ magazine (June 2012) contains an article by Bruce M. Towsley entitled, ‘Mag-Na-Port Muzzle Vents’ which makes several favorable claims for pistol barrel porting. (Which is NOT the same thing as compensating a barrel.) Pistol barrel porting exists in two basic designs: Muzzle porting which is installed near the muzzle end of an extended pistol barrel, and slide porting which is accomplished by cutting gas discharge openings through both the slide and the wall of a typical length barrel.

Either type of barrel porting differs from compensation which, in addition to cutting gas vents into the barrel/slide, also adds additional weight and, often, some sort of gas venting or redirection system to a pistol barrel. The article recounts the career of Larry Kelly, Founder of Mag-Na-Port, and his application of EDM (‘erosion’) cutting to create gas vents, or ports, in pistol barrels. The claim is made that perceived recoil and muzzle flip will be reduced by as much as 15 to 20%; and, in subjective tests carried out by the Towsley, himself, overall recoil reduction was perceived to be as high as 30%. It should be mentioned that these percentages only apply to a 2 port gas venting system. The author makes a suggestion that the installation of more ports will produce an even greater reduction in recoil.

While my own experience with pistol barrel porting does not indicate recoil reductions greater than, what I would estimate as, ‘up to 15%’ - with most reductions occurring in a range I’d guesstimate as somewhere between 8 and 12% - I still think that pistol barrel porting is well worth the effort. (I’ve definitely experienced perceptible recoil reduction in, both, quicker and easier-to-control front sight pictures, as well as consequent and significantly reduced split times.) So, why don’t all pistols come with, at least, ported barrels? I’m going to suggest several principal reasons:

First, I think there is a longstanding media bias against pistol barrel porting - One that began with any number of poorly written, and exaggerated, ‘gunzine articles’; and, later on, continued by any number of pistol owner/users over the internet. Some complaints against pistol barrel porting are easily dismissed. I, particularly, like the concern expressed by one, often repeated, ‘gunzine author’ who expressed what has proven to be an unusually durable assertion: That when fired from close retention to the body pistol barrel porting can (Ready?) set your clothes on fire!

Well, yeah; but, as far as I’m concerned, you’ll only light up IF your clothes happen to be soaked in gasoline! The most recent and vociferous complaints against pistol barrel porting all seem to come from a popular cadre of professional and commercial handgun shooters and trainers. What’s more, the major complaint is always the same - Namely, that when you fire a ported pistol from close retention your face is going to be splattered by hot gas and discharge residue. The questions beg: How likely is something like this to happen? How often might an event like this occur; and can smacking yourself in the face with muzzle splatter be avoided?

While setting your clothes on fire is, - upon reflection - a ridiculous claim, it’s not so easy to refute the muzzle retention/splatter-in-the-face objection. Is getting splattered in the face actually likely to occur? More succinctly, is a ported pistol barrel more likely to produce a noisome facial muzzle blast than a conventional pistol barrel? I’ve given a lot of thought to this proposition; and I’ve tried to be as fair-minded as possible. The best answers I’ve been able to come up with all involve, ‘How’ each individual shooter uses a pistol, AND, ‘How’ an individual has been trained to use a pistol.

There are several different ways to, ‘fire from retention’. One way is to tuck the pistol in tight to your side as you begin firing. This is little, or no, different from drawing and firing a handgun from a waist holster. I’ve been shooting like this since I was 13 or 14 years old; and at no time have I ever splattered my face with anything. I have, however, occasionally splattered my face with powder discharge, probably from the forcing cone area, released from large centerfire caliber revolvers. None of these big revolvers, though, were being held under my nose at the time - OK.

Another (presently incumbent) way to fire from retention is to mount the pistol to your center chest, hold it in front of your heart, and begin firing. I first became aware of this technique about 12 years ago. Exactly where it came from I do not know; but it is at divergence with everything else I’ve ever learned about using a pistol.

Is there, or could there be, any difference between firing a ported or non:ported handgun from center chest retention? If we’re talking about short barreled pistols then, no, there is not. If the shooter of a ported pistol has the God-given sense (or the proper training) to cant his ported pistol off to one side - usually to the right outside - then, all of a sudden and miracle-of-miracles, there is no functional difference between either type of pistol. Both ported and non:ported pistols, for all practical intents and purposes, perform in exactly the same manner.

The other big objection to pistol porting is the frequent gunzine/gun forum assertion that the use of a ported barrel will destroy your night vision. Really! Let me tell you something: I’ve been using muzzle-ported pistols for almost 40 years. I, probably, built my first 1911 before most of today’s internet gunfighters and, so-called, firearm trainers were even born. Over the years I’ve often fired all different sorts of firearms in low light conditions; and, sometimes, even at night without going significantly, ‘flash blind’. Most of the time, in fact, I don’t even notice the flash while shooting a pistol under low light conditions.

Many of today's quality pistol powders are very low flash; and, in my experience, even cheap Wal-Mart, 'range quality' ammunition doesn’t flash all that consistently. To check this opinion I recently stood off to one side in a darkened room and watched several acquaintances fire their pistols. Most of the pistols I watched flashed very little and none too brightly as well. Usually, I’d say one out of every three shots produced discernible muzzle flash; and this was while using, ‘range quality’ ammunition.

The other thing I was looking for was someone to stop shooting because he could no longer clearly see his target. Know what? That NEVER happened! (Seems to be something of an internet gun forum phenomenon.) Could a shooter go flash blind while firing a pistol? By degree I’m going to say yes; but, if a pistolero knows how to fire rapidly, and is able to get a good front sight picture on the target BEFORE he starts firing then my 60 years of shooting experience say that, whether or not a pistol shooter has perfect visual acuity throughout the shot string, THE TARGET IS GOING TO TAKE SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE FROM THE FIRST THREE SHOTS; and, I’ve never seen things work out any differently - except, of course, on the internet!

NeverMore1701
03-17-2012, 16:57
I'll be another one of "those guys" and say if there's a gunfight, I'm not going. If I had to go, I would be bringing my Noveske N4 AR with all the bells and whistles, Beretta 92FS in Safariland thigh holster, wearing my IBA with SAPI plates, Esstac chest rig with a half dozen extra Pmags and a couple of pistol mags, IFAK, and as many well armed friends as I could round up.

SauerChoi
03-17-2012, 17:08
Maybe it's different in Texas but in Detroit, invitations don't usually get sent out for gunfights.... they happen numerous times on a daily basis... all by themselves....

HH

jebus tap dancing christ, it's just a hypothetical question for fun. lighten up francis!

michael e
03-17-2012, 17:15
If I knew I was it would be my G24, seem to shoot the best with it.

WarEagle32
03-17-2012, 18:39
1. non ported. My CZ 85 Combat hands down. 2nd place would be my Glock 19.
2. Depends on the competion. But I still lean towards my 85 Combat
3. Just my preference!

dakrat
03-17-2012, 20:19
:) I'd like your opinion.

(1) You know you're going to be in a pistol gunfight; which pistol would you rather have, one with a ported or a nonported barrel? Tell me why?

(2) You're shooting in a self-defense style pistol match. Which pistol would you rather have, now? Ported or nonported? Again, tell me why?

(3) Are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to using either design?

1. non-ported. in this situation, I probably wont have time to put on my hearing protection. If I come out victorious, I would love to retain my hearing.

2. non-ported. because the so called "reduce recoil" effect of the ported model is negligible, the Gen4 recoil spring assembly is 10x more effective.

3. yes, in high power rifle. its called muzzle break.

Fastfordsrus
03-17-2012, 20:52
This thread was supposed to be about a hypothetical gunfight.....not starting a gunfight! For crying out loud everyone is acting like somebody just slapped there mother.

1. Non-ported Because I don't own one!
2. Non-ported Because I don't own one!
(and I wouldn't practice SD with something I wouldn't use in SD situation.)
3. Disadvantage: "Possibility" of being blinded and possibly less velocity
Advantage: Faster target acquisition and "possibly" less recoil

As stated above it is up to each individual shooter to decide for themselves.

HK Dan
03-18-2012, 07:04
If I know I'm going to a pistol fight? I'm not going. I'll be in Tampa,or San Diego, or maybe just re-arranging my sock drawer here in Iowa, but I ain't going to a pistol fight with the full knowledge that a fight will be the outcome. They call that "pre-meditation"

Dan

Kentucky Shooter
03-18-2012, 11:52
If I know I'm going to a pistol fight? I'm not going. I'll be in Tampa,or San Diego, or maybe just re-arranging my sock drawer here in Iowa, but I ain't going to a pistol fight with the full knowledge that a fight will be the outcome. They call that "pre-meditation"

Dan

My thoughts too- gunfights in most cases I assume happen with little to no warning. If I know one is going to happen, I will stay home or go somewhere else.

Metal Angel
03-18-2012, 12:24
I think I would want some low capacity pocket .380, that way if I win, it would make me look like a real badass. If I lose, it will just look like I was outgunned.

Arc Angel
03-18-2012, 12:59
:shocked: Ahh, guys, it's strictly a hypothetical question; the possible answers to which have absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject of this thread. :upeyes:

fnfalman
03-18-2012, 17:33
Non-port because I don't have any ported gun except for a 4" Colt Python.

TN.Frank
03-18-2012, 17:37
Truth be told I think I'd try to avoid a gun fight. I mean people get hurt/killed at those things. Doesn't sound like it'd be much fun IMHO.:dunno:

clancy
03-18-2012, 17:54
At the risk of sounding old-fashioned, my pistol of choice would be my S&W Model 25. I shoot it better than any handgun I have ever shot. 6 well placed 250 grain bullets at 950 fps will settle just about any problem I may ever encounter, and if not, nothing says pistol whip like an N frame revolver.

FM12
04-10-2012, 19:31
My S&W 629. Enough punch to get the job done, regardless. And it's not ported.

GlockFish
04-10-2012, 19:34
1. Non-ported. Cause 9mm don't need portin'
2. Non-ported. Cause 9mm don't need portin'
3. 9mm (specifically a Glock 17) doesn't need porting.

CharlestonG26
04-10-2012, 19:49
.Hey...what about all those small, light, easy to pocket carry 380s that GT members have been talking about???

Interesting that none of the posters plan to participate in the gun fight with their 'drop in my pocket for a quick run to the store' plastic 380. When folks think they might need a handgun...they want a real handgun...ported or not ported.

Bullman
04-11-2012, 09:29
My Glock 20

camaro_dave
04-11-2012, 19:31
i would not want a ported pistol in a gun fight. too loud, might throw off concentration ;) in a shooting match i prefer non ported as well. only cause i have only shot a few and prefer my own pistols that i am used to...

USMC Gunner
04-11-2012, 19:43
Non ported 100% of the time it's just a personal preference :D

tango44
04-12-2012, 10:45
G19 enough said!

WarEagle32
04-12-2012, 17:49
I'd go non-ported as well because it's what I feel most comfortable with. Probay take my Glock 30 or CZ Customs CZ 85 Combat to the gunfight.

To the competition hands down I would take my CZ 85 Combat Custom. Not porter because it's what I'm use to and shoots better than anything I've ever touched!

WoodenPlank
04-12-2012, 17:59
I'd simply not show up. Avoiding a gunfight to begin with means I don't risk getting shot.

Schrag4
04-12-2012, 20:56
I know the question was "ported" or "non-ported", but once you told us it was because of what many would consider extreme recoil sensitivity, why not choose a caliber that doesn't recoil nearly as much as a 9, 40, or 45? I'm thinking something like a 5.7 - cost is extreme, but if you KNOW you're going to be in a gunfight, do you really care about cost?

Hour13
04-12-2012, 21:41
Same thing I strap to my hip every single day. Fullsize H&K .40 USP. If stuck having to attend a gunfight I knew was coming, and I was going to choose something else... that's what I would be carrying now.

Ported or no? Have no experience with ported(handguns), so I'm not going to blather on about I have no knowledge of.

TactiCool
04-12-2012, 21:45
I'd simply not show up. Avoiding a gunfight to begin with means I don't risk getting shot.

Exactly. If you can keep your opponent from defeating you, then you have won.


But to answer the OP: I only have one pistol, so my plain-jane g17 would be my only option.

However, if I were ever challenged to a real 'gunfight' I would call up some action-hungry LEO friends of mine and bring a video camera.

janice6
04-12-2012, 21:55
I have shot a G22C in a dim indoor range with a black background and had no problem whatsoever. The comp gas looked like a blue flame as seen on a gas stove. I have considerable experience with an Oxy-Acet torch and it is nothing like this.

I concentrated on the comp flame for a few shots and had no problem with intensity more with seeing it during the muzzle blast.

I would own a "C" model in a second if I had the money.

I carry a .357 Magnum snubby and if you want to see some "flame", shoot one of these.

Hines57
04-12-2012, 23:26
Obvious answer, whatever pistol I am open carrying.

I would choose ported. That way, when I am taking on a gang, I can shoot all gangster style and take out one with a bullet and one with the muzzle flash and hot gas.

faawrenchbndr
04-13-2012, 06:31
But, ported or non-ported?


Well, since I've NEVER seen a ported Browning Hi Power,.........

ca survivor
04-13-2012, 08:09
As a C owner, I cannot believe the ill-informed and unknowingly stupid opinions some people hold about C model glocks. From a C owner I will state the following fact:

Unless you put your eyeball over the ports while firing, C model glocks have ABSOLUTELY no ill effect on your vision in ANY situation.
Have you ever fired that C in low light ? I think NOT

BuckyP
04-13-2012, 14:58
Have you ever fired that C in low light ? I think NOT

I've fired a 23C and 22C in low light and no light on several occasions . Flash wasn't an issue with quality ammunition (Gold Dots, SXTs) and minimal at most with cheaper practice ammo.

Hour13
04-13-2012, 21:00
Well, since I've NEVER seen a ported Browning Hi Power,.........

Pretty sure that's be considered a crime against God.