Is this considered open carry? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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crash_gsxr750
03-14-2012, 13:36
See pic

Booker
03-14-2012, 13:39
In my State, Yes, until you cover it!

xmanhockey7
03-14-2012, 13:40
Depends on your state. In Michigan many consider it a "gray area". If you ask me yeah that would be considered open carry but again it depends on your state. Although I strongly recommend NOT open carrying in an IWB holster as the retention is horrible compared to a good OWB holster. Also carrying it in that position leaves you more susceptible to a gun grab. If you're going to open carry get a good OWB holster.

jknight8907
03-14-2012, 13:40
There's no clear answer, it depends on the exact wording of your state's law. I would NOT carry openly like that, however, just too much potential trouble.

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crash_gsxr750
03-14-2012, 13:48
Well I live in michigan

I ask only out of curiosity, as I have my CPL so I'm a shirt flip away from concealed

jknight8907
03-14-2012, 13:50
Well I live in michigan

Well how does your legislation describe what "open" means? Handgunlaw.us

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RussP
03-14-2012, 13:52
See pic

Well I live in michigan

I ask only out of curiosity, as I have my CPL so I'm a shirt flip away from concealedSo do you open carry or carry concealed?

Blaster
03-14-2012, 13:57
I fail to see any grey area. If you can see it it is open carry.

It makes no sense to me to mince words over how much of the weapon or holster is exposed. Kinda like being a little bit pregnant. You either are or you are not.

crash_gsxr750
03-14-2012, 14:01
So do you open carry or carry concealed?

I carry concealed, I just had a question I knew I could get answered or pointed on right direction

RussP
03-14-2012, 14:05
I carry concealed, I just had a question I knew I could get answered or pointed on right direction:thumbsup:

xmanhockey7
03-14-2012, 15:03
Well I live in michigan

I ask only out of curiosity, as I have my CPL so I'm a shirt flip away from concealed

I'm from Michigan too. Like I said it's a "grey area". There was a guy arrested for carry concealed in an IWB holster. It never went to trial because he took a plea bargain. If you plan on OCing in a place where you can CC go for it since you have a CPL. But if you plan on OCing into a place where CC is illegal, for example a school, I would highly discourage OCing in an IWB and very much encourage an OWB holster.

crash_gsxr750
03-14-2012, 15:58
I'm from Michigan too. Like I said it's a "grey area". There was a guy arrested for carry concealed in an IWB holster. It never went to trial because he took a plea bargain. If you plan on OCing in a place where you can CC go for it since you have a CPL. But if you plan on OCing into a place where CC is illegal, for example a school, I would highly discourage OCing in an IWB and very much encourage an OWB holster.

I have a Blackhawk serpa (I think it's what it's called, it has a lever to release pistol)

That's what I use for CC/OC times

When I'm just CC I use my IWB

Brian Lee
03-14-2012, 16:21
According to what I heard Sheriff Joe saying on TV one time back when AZ still required CC permits, it would be legal open carry. He said "if any part of it is visible, it's legal." Of course now that we have CC with no permit needed it would not matter.

Too bad this doesn't help you in Michigan.

xmanhockey7
03-14-2012, 17:09
I have a Blackhawk serpa (I think it's what it's called, it has a lever to release pistol)

That's what I use for CC/OC times

When I'm just CC I use my IWB

Serpa would be perfect for OC.

crash_gsxr750
03-14-2012, 18:44
Thx everyone

TMNKWD
03-14-2012, 18:47
Basically, if you ask someone the question; "What's that?" and they answer; "It's a gun.", it's open carry.

steveksux
03-14-2012, 19:59
alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htmSeems clear, but the opinion was written for reserve officers who open carry with exposed holsters, not IWB holsters.

Does it still apply to IWB holsters. And AG opinions are not necessarily legally binding, are they?

Like someone said, IWB is a grey area. Until there's case law, its a risk.

Randy

xmanhockey7
03-14-2012, 20:06
http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htmSeems clear, but the opinion was written for reserve officers who open carry with exposed holsters, not IWB holsters.

Does it still apply to IWB holsters. And AG opinions are not necessarily legally binding, are they?

Like someone said, IWB is a grey area. Until there's case law, its a risk.

Randy
AG opinions are just their opinions, they hold no weight of law (even though they sort of do reference suppressors). Additionally the opinion you are referring to referenced that a reserve officer, just like any citizen, can openly carry in a holster. So it really doesn't just apply to them.

MarkM32
03-14-2012, 20:07
In Virginia, that can be considered OC, if your shirt is tucked in. Some guys may say too much is hidden so it's concealed, but IMO it is open, I wouldn't ask for a CHP.

steveksux
03-14-2012, 20:19
AG opinions are just their opinions, they hold no weight of law (even though they sort of do reference suppressors). Additionally the opinion you are referring to referenced that a reserve officer, just like any citizen, can openly carry in a holster. So it really doesn't just apply to them.
Didn't say it only applies to them, but they carry in exposed holsters, so it definitely applies to exposed holsters. However, IWB, a concealed holster, could that be considered different? Less exposed? Maybe, may not be covered. Depends on the agenda of the prosecutor interpreting it.

Randy

DaneA
03-14-2012, 20:41
Whatever you want to call it keep in mind that you will get attention from it. I recently had an incident at my work where one of my managers called the police about a customer with a gun. Her impression was that it was stuffed in his waist band (aka mexican carry) and it spooked her.
A conversation with the "OCer" the next day (he called to complain), I discovered he was carrying using a CBST in a similar manner. After a few minutes of discussion he concluded that the way in which he was carrying gave off the wrong impression.

*Note* This story is not to spark a discussion of OC/CC or if what my manager did was right or wrong. Simply to show the impression given to those that are not experienced with firearms. Legal or not, trying to OC with a CC holster is not a good idea.

xmanhockey7
03-14-2012, 20:47
Whatever you want to call it keep in mind that you will get attention from it. I recently had an incident at my work where one of my managers called the police about a customer with a gun. Her impression was that it was stuffed in his waist band (aka mexican carry) and it spooked her.
A conversation with the "OCer" the next day (he called to complain), I discovered he was carrying using a CBST in a similar manner. After a few minutes of discussion he concluded that the way in which he was carrying gave off the wrong impression.

*Note* This story is not to spark a discussion of OC/CC or if what my manager did was right or wrong. Simply to show the impression given to those that are not experienced with firearms. Legal or not, trying to OC with a CC holster is not a good idea.
So if it had been in a OWB holster it would have been different for her?

DaneA
03-14-2012, 20:49
So if it had been in a OWB holster it would have been different for her?

Actually yes. We have people in all the time wearing OWB holsters.

SgtScott31
03-14-2012, 21:38
AG opinions are just their opinions, they hold no weight of law (even though they sort of do reference suppressors). Additionally the opinion you are referring to referenced that a reserve officer, just like any citizen, can openly carry in a holster. So it really doesn't just apply to them.

Although they don't hold weight of law, AG opinions are taken heavily into consideration when the courts are looking into issues. It's sort of like one district court reading opinions of other district courts. They don't have to go by the other court, but it may sway their opinion one way or the other.

Glockrunner
03-15-2012, 05:30
I have a Blackhawk serpa (I think it's what it's called, it has a lever to release pistol)

That's what I use for CC/OC times

When I'm just CC I use my IWB

I hope your medical insurance is up to date.

Unistat
03-15-2012, 06:37
I hope your medical insurance is up to date.

Or that he just knows and practices how to properly draw from the Serpa. Really, they are not fundamentally more dangerous than other holsters. If you are not paying attention and practicing, NDs can happen with any pistol/holster combo.

golls17
03-15-2012, 09:15
Basically, if you ask someone the question; "What's that?" and they answer; "It's a gun.", it's open carry.

Not here in WI. If you carried like that before concealed carry passed here, you'd get nailed for a concealed weapon (the way the law was written said it had to be completely visible). Heck, if you were open carrying in your vehicle, you could get in trouble because the vehicle "hid" your gun from outside viewers.

Now that we've got all that worked out, it wouldn't matter either way (I've carried like that doing work around the house), but I think here it would still be considered concealed.

tango44
03-15-2012, 11:56
Of course!

concretefuzzynuts
03-15-2012, 20:47
In Virginia, that can be considered OC, if your shirt is tucked in. Some guys may say too much is hidden so it's concealed, but IMO it is open, I wouldn't ask for a CHP.

Yes. Read Va Commonwealth law. "OC is the act of carrying a firearm (mostly handguns however rifles and shotguns may be OC’d) in plain sight on your person while conducting your daily business. This normally means a handgun secured in a holster on the outside of your clothing much the same way a police officer would carry their weapon. Alternative options would be a shoulder holster, “in the waistband” holster (providing your shirt is tucked in exposing the butt of the handgun) and tactical / drop leg holsters. “In the waistband” holsters are not considered “concealed” under VA law since about 1/3 of the firearm (the butt) is exposed. Just take care not to let your shirt come un-tucked and cover the firearm if you are not in possession of a CHP."

HarleyGuy
03-15-2012, 22:01
Those who do not have a CPL but choose to "OC" here in Michigan should take every precaution necessary to make sure that their gun is clearly visible and that there is no attempt to cover, hide , or conceal it.
Carrying a concealed weapon (CCW) without a CPL is a felony in Michigan.

IMHO, an IWB holster doesn't cover any more of the gun than most OWB holsters, but with the IWB holster being inside the pants, most of the holster and the gun is covered.

This could come down to a police officer's judgement (and his superior) whether or not to detain or arrest and the prosecutors choice of whether to charge and prosecute.

Either way, this could be a lot of inconvenience and perhaps a lot of legal fees, and perhaps a felony conviction, where a little caution could prevent this.

yesterdave
03-15-2012, 23:04
I'm a LEO in Michigan, and this would be considered concealed carry. Firearm must be holstered and 100% visible to be considered "open carry".

Lindenwood
03-15-2012, 23:22
I'm a LEO in Michigan, and this would be considered concealed carry. Firearm must be holstered and 100% visible to be considered "open carry".

That is the impression I had. Any perceived attempt to hide any part of it inside clothing (including the tip of the slide, and / or the holster itself) could be considered concealment in some states.

I've even heard of a guy who was trying to OC, but his jacket inadvertantly covered part of the gun while he was walking or something. The holster and rest of the gun were clearly visible, but just part of the grip was covered by the jacket. Ended up being a huge annoyance for him.

Rustin
03-15-2012, 23:47
Bottom line is that is a concealment holster. It's not worth it. Go get yourself a damned serpa. They're cheap now cause nobody wants em.

MarkM32
03-16-2012, 01:43
Yes. Read Va Commonwealth law. "OC is the act of carrying a firearm (mostly handguns however rifles and shotguns may be OC’d) in plain sight on your person while conducting your daily business. This normally means a handgun secured in a holster on the outside of your clothing much the same way a police officer would carry their weapon. Alternative options would be a shoulder holster, “in the waistband” holster (providing your shirt is tucked in exposing the butt of the handgun) and tactical / drop leg holsters. “In the waistband” holsters are not considered “concealed” under VA law since about 1/3 of the firearm (the butt) is exposed. Just take care not to let your shirt come un-tucked and cover the firearm if you are not in possession of a CHP."

There you go, 1/3. Although it says IWB is not considered concealed, the gun must be plainly visible. You've got to be careful in those situations. Like I said before, as long as your shirt is tucked in and I can plainly see it, I'm good with it.

NEOH212
03-16-2012, 02:23
Well, lets see here.............


































It's not concealed!


What's that mean.......?

Hmmmmmmmm.......:dunno:

MarkM32
03-16-2012, 02:29
Well, lets see here.............


It's not concealed!


What's that mean.......?

Hmmmmmmmm.......:dunno:

If I were to guess, I would have to say... hm, this is tough, I see why you asked.

Not sure, since I was the last to post, but I hope that wasn't aimed toward me.

xmanhockey7
03-16-2012, 05:44
I'm a LEO in Michigan, and this would be considered concealed carry. Firearm must be holstered and 100% visible to be considered "open carry".

Do you have a cite for the law or case law saying this?

RoundBrown
03-16-2012, 08:42
The way I see it is in this situation the same amount of the ACTUAL GUN is exposed weather it is in a IWB or OWB. So if he were to carry it in a OWB the holster would still be covering the same amount of the pistol..just a thought

Bill Lumberg
03-16-2012, 10:09
Yes. Everyone may not notice it, but it's open carry. You may bet better results if you put some glitter on it.

Rustin
03-16-2012, 10:44
If you would like to retain your freedom and rights as an American citizen, I strongly advise you to open carry with an OWB holster. It doesn't matter if the slide is covered by a holster, the holster itself will be 50% more visible, i.e., your not trying to conceal. When you OPEN CARRY with a CONCEAL CARRY holster, your asking for trouble.You could arguably carry in this mode everyday for 50 years, every day without incident, but all it will take is one cops idea of what concealed is, then your @#$%ed. Heed the warning. Spend 20 bucks to guarentee your damned freedom. It doesn't matter what should be, only what is. For instance, in Ohio we can own 33 round glock mags, but if we fill em up it's considered, and I kid you not, a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon under BATFE guidlines. Sometimes you just gotta deal with the BS and play by the crooked, sometimes retarded rules. Don't risk it.

Bill Lumberg
03-16-2012, 11:00
Attention seeking is attention seeking, discrete is discrete. And whether or not your 33 round glock mag is filled up has no bearing whatsoever on the legality of the mag or your gun under federal law/BATFE "guidelines". But you are right in one regard- if the only way you can carry legally is openly, you're better off with an OWB holster.

RussP
03-16-2012, 12:45
For instance, in Ohio we can own 33 round glock mags, but if we fill em up it's considered, and I kid you not, a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon under BATFE guidlines.I believe you mean under Ohio law:2923.11 Weapons control definitions.
As used in sections 2923.11 to 2923.24 of the Revised Code:
(A) “Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or
specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.
(B)(1) “Firearm” means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the
action of an explosive or combustible propellant. “Firearm” includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm
that is inoperable but that can readily be rendered operable.
(2) When determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the
action of an explosive or combustible propellant, the trier of fact may rely upon circumstantial evidence,
including, but not limited to, the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the
firearm.
(E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges
with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed
or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm
chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.Ohio allows ownership of automatic weapons that are properly registered with the ATF. Just register the "Automatic Weapon" and you're good to go.

The State Law defines the weapon.

ZO6Vettever
03-16-2012, 13:27
That's O/C in Florida and O/C is a no, no here.

Warp
03-16-2012, 13:48
See pic

For the record my opinion is that, legally, I would consider that unwise and possibly illegal if either open or concealed carry was not legal.

I would personally consider that open carry, but I could see the law going the wrong way for you unless both were legal.

If the law requires it to be open I would get an OWB holster, both to remove any possible 'confusion' and so that you have more choices in retention devices.

steveksux
03-16-2012, 17:09
Yes. Everyone may not notice it, but it's open carry. You may bet better results if you put some glitter on it.:rofl:

They you'd open yourself up to charges of being an attention whore... you'd hope that would squelch any talk of concealment.

I think Pinki's pink glock would qualify as open carry even without the glitter... :supergrin:

Randy

Glockrunner
03-16-2012, 18:09
:rofl:

They you'd open yourself up to charges of being an attention whore... you'd hope that would squelch any talk of concealment.

I think Pinki's pink glock would qualify as open carry even without the glitter... :supergrin:

Randy

I don't know, it would blend in pretty well with her pink shirt and that could be considered concealment!:tongueout:

glockaviator
03-17-2012, 10:35
There are always legal gray areas. And this is one. Could be open, could be concealed. I'd say it's open, but that's just my judgement. Frankly, I think most police would be scratching their head on this one.

Hey, maybe it's NOT open AND it's NOT concealed. So no matter what, it's legal?

atakawow
03-17-2012, 10:59
Great! Now we have a 3rd option! CC, OC, and SOC (semi-open carry). Why we need a 3rd option I will never know, but we like options, make us special among others!

crash_gsxr750
03-17-2012, 11:04
Guys

I have a Serpa for OC'ing my G19 and I have this IWB holster for carrying concealed because I do have my CPL

So in Michigan I can do either as I see fit

Warp
03-17-2012, 11:19
There are always legal gray areas. And this is one. Could be open, could be concealed. I'd say it's open, but that's just my judgement. Frankly, I think most police would be scratching their head on this one.

Hey, maybe it's NOT open AND it's NOT concealed. So no matter what, it's legal?

I would say that if either open or concealed carry is illegal, no matter what it is illegal. Or at least that is how I would view it. Better safe than sorry.

Rustin
03-17-2012, 12:54
I believe you mean under Ohio law:
2923.11 Weapons control definitions.
As used in sections 2923.11 to 2923.24 of the Revised Code:
(A) “Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or
specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.
(B)(1) “Firearm” means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the
action of an explosive or combustible propellant. “Firearm” includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm
that is inoperable but that can readily be rendered operable.
(2) When determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the
action of an explosive or combustible propellant, the trier of fact may rely upon circumstantial evidence,
including, but not limited to, the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the
firearm.
(E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges
with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed
or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm
chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.
Ohio allows ownership of automatic weapons that are properly registered with the ATF. Just register the "Automatic Weapon" and you're good to go.

The State Law defines the weapon.

I'm not going through the hassle and expensises of registering a 33 round magazine as an automatic weapon.:tongueout: It's just rediculous. I was just trying to make the point that no matter if it's a grey area, just be safe and make your decisions based on what you know is right, not by what you think is right.

9jeeps
03-17-2012, 14:30
Shirt behind the Gun........ OC!!!!! Shirt over the gun.......CC!

WTF does a holster have to do with anything????

Either you see it OR you don't.
Where's the argument?
Why is there an argument?

That should clear that right up!!!!!!!!!!!:wavey:

HarleyGuy
03-17-2012, 14:45
Shirt behind the Gun........ OC!!!!! Shirt over the gun.......CC!

WTF does a holster have to do with anything????

Either you see it OR you don't.
Where's the argument?
Why is there an argument?

That should clear that right up!!!!!!!!!!!:wavey:

The difference is you sitting there at home debating this on this webstite vs you being in court (hopefullly with a good expensive attorney) attempting to get acquitted of the charges that have put you there.
If you want to be the "test case" and take one "for the team" go ahead.
If you're going to exercise your chioce your right to OC, then don't attempt to conceal your gun UNLESS you also have a concealed carry license UNLESS you are prepared to face the consequences.

rallenal
03-17-2012, 14:53
See pic

Since no one could decide whether a IWB worn without cover was OC or CC, what do people say about something like a full flap holster or Safepacker worn outside the pants. I have a CCW but worry about getting busted with these in states where OC is illegal.

Warp
03-17-2012, 19:32
Shirt behind the Gun........ OC!!!!! Shirt over the gun.......CC!

WTF does a holster have to do with anything????

Either you see it OR you don't.
Where's the argument?
Why is there an argument?

That should clear that right up!!!!!!!!!!!:wavey:


Which state statute are you referring to?

redbaron007
03-17-2012, 20:38
If my wife saw this, it would be OC! :rofl: The state laws wouldn't matter! :tongueout:

My opine, what does the state law say about OC? If gray, err on a conservative side, to keep the hassle low. However, if you have deep pockets, then feel free to challenge it. :supergrin:

:wavey:

red

Sbh87
03-18-2012, 02:15
In MA thats a great way to get your 2nd amendment rights taken and never given back.

Warp
03-18-2012, 10:40
In MA thats a great way to get your 2nd amendment rights taken and never given back.

Do you ever have 2A rights in MA?

SCmasterblaster
03-18-2012, 11:29
In NH and VT it certainly is considered open carry.

yesterdave
03-19-2012, 22:12
"I am, therefore, of the opinion that if a pistol is carried in a
holster or belt, on the outside of the clothing so as to be in
plain view, it does not constitute carrying a concealed weapon. If
it is worn under a coat, it would be, in my judgment, a violation
of the statute, as the same would then not be in plain view."

~ MI AG opinion #3158

Plan view is the critical phrase here. While to the observant, a pistol inside the waistband as shown could be considered "open carry", the vast majority of normal citizens will never notice it. If a normal person can not be reasonably expected to see something, it cannot be considered plain view.

jpa
03-19-2012, 22:29
It is readily discernible as a firearm by ordinary observation so yes, it would not be considered concealed in Nevada.