.380 vs .38 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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CDR_Glock
03-15-2012, 20:45
Aren't +P rounds equivalent in effectiveness assuming proper shot placement?


Lifetime NRA Member

dsa1115
03-15-2012, 20:48
.38 special is a more potent round.

bac1023
03-15-2012, 20:49
The 38Special packs more punch.

Folsom_Prison
03-15-2012, 20:52
I'd pick the 38 if it were me.

Zombie Steve
03-15-2012, 20:53
.38 Special has a much larger case. More room for powder, more room for bullet... It's going to be able to do whatever the .380 can do at lower pressures, or outperform it at similar pressures. That's about all there is to it.

Glock40man
03-15-2012, 21:03
According to Speer, The 380 90 gr. GD 1040 fps. with 214 ft lbs. While the 38 SPL+P 125 gr. GD moves at 945 fps. With 248 ft lbs. of energy. So, the 38 SPL is slower but, with a bit more energy.

OldSchool64
03-15-2012, 21:10
The only advantage to the .380 over 38 special is the guns size, if you consider that smaller is better, and that comes with a reduction in stopping power.

Energy = Stopping Power

CDR_Glock
03-15-2012, 21:34
Ok, thanks.

You guys are awesome.


Lifetime NRA Member

3000fps
03-15-2012, 21:43
Great question, I just purchased a 642 and am currently deep pocket carrying the LCP at work. Need to find a holster that can hide the 642.

BFN
03-15-2012, 22:50
The 38 sp has much more penetration than .380, heavier bullets, more sectional density.

Folsom_Prison
03-15-2012, 23:07
Great question, I just purchased a 642 and am currently deep pocket carrying the LCP at work. Need to find a holster that can hide the 642.

I've never had a lcp, but I've had one in my pocket before to try one out. I've owned a LCR and 642 and pocket carried both. The lcp is more comfortable but I'd rather have the 38.

Gregg702
03-15-2012, 23:44
Great question, I just purchased a 642 and am currently deep pocket carrying the LCP at work. Need to find a holster that can hide the 642.

A DeSantis Nemesis works well.

GlockFish
03-16-2012, 14:25
38 Rounds can be much heavier. That makes em better.

Narkcop
03-16-2012, 14:33
.380 is more potent than it is given credit for.

WarEagle32
03-16-2012, 19:54
The 380 in an LCP is sooo light. That is an advantage to me against the 38. I have a 38 snubbie and an Lcp, and all I carry the Lcp a lot more. The 38 just is barely any better than a 380 ballistically so I will stick with the Lcp size 380!

WarEagle32
03-16-2012, 20:02
I have just bought a Mil/Mil Weaver Grand slam tactical 3x10x40 scope that I installed on my DPMS 308B. I am a total newbie all around when it comes to a Mil/Mil scope from zeroing to shooting long with it. I have put a 20 moa base on it and nice rings, so the setup is there. I just need functional info. Thanks for any help because I need it!

3000fps
03-16-2012, 20:05
I've never had a lcp, but I've had one in my pocket before to try one out. I've owned a LCR and 642 and pocket carried both. The lcp is more comfortable but I'd rather have the 38.

Same here. The J Frame rides too high in my slacks at work. You can see the butt of the grip in my pocket from behind when it's holstered which makes it a no-go for work carry.

The LCP sits deep and flat in my pocket. I may have to get an ankle rig for the J frame, although I don't know what's better.

Ankle carrying a 5 shot J frame, or pocket carrying a 7 shot LCP.

CDR_Glock
03-16-2012, 20:10
I had just gotten a Sig P238. I shoot it more efficiently than my LCR because of the single action. I have been carrying it the past couple of days as a primary. Because the weather has gotten much warmer, I cannot hide my G30.

Anyways, I will be carrying my G27, again, with the 380 as backup. The 380 really can go anywhere without notice. I'm putting my Diamondback DB9 on consignment. It's a POS. I give up on that.

However, my LCR will be in the rotation as a PRIMARY, too.


Lifetime NRA Member

PrecisionRifleman
03-16-2012, 20:11
38Spcl all the way. I'm not a 380 fan. If your going to get a 380 you ought to be getting a 9mm, and if your getting a 9mm you ought to be getting a 40S&W, and if your getting a 40S&W you ought to be getting a 10mm. 10mm FTW! :P lol j/k.... kind of..http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/embarass%20.gif

Folsom_Prison
03-16-2012, 22:26
Same here. The J Frame rides too high in my slacks at work. You can see the butt of the grip in my pocket from behind when it's holstered which makes it a no-go for work carry.

The LCP sits deep and flat in my pocket. I may have to get an ankle rig for the J frame, although I don't know what's better.

Ankle carrying a 5 shot J frame, or pocket carrying a 7 shot LCP.

I had the same problem with all my pants and shorts. Also with the revolver you get the buldge from the width of the cylinder. You could always tell I had something fairly bulky in my pocket.

Like I said I don't have an lcp, never thought I'd ever have a need for one, but the more and more I think about it I can see where it would come in handy in certain situations.

My main squeeze is a G19 so I think it would be weird shooting one of those little things.

Cole125
03-16-2012, 22:42
Original poster, don't ask us, use google and look at ballistic data of the two rounds.

I carry a J frame .38 with +p Gold Dots as a back up gun, I would rather have 5 shots of .38 +p than 6 or 7 shots of .380. Thats just me.

hogship
03-16-2012, 22:44
Like I said I don't have an lcp, never thought I'd ever have a need for one, but the more and more I think about it I can see where it would come in handy in certain situations.


The LCP, or one that small and thin is the one you can always have, no matter what......

No matter how much you detest the 380, or even 32, 25, or 22.....they all beat the hell out of not being armed at all.:faint:

ooc

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/372938565.jpg

No matter how much you'd rather have a 38spl, there are plenty of times where something this big and bulky isn't going to work......just face that fact.
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/200767950.jpg

Folsom_Prison
03-16-2012, 23:26
I can't argue with you one bit!

The LCP, or one that small and thin is the one you can always have, no matter what......

No matter how much you detest the 380, or even 32, 25, or 22.....they all beat the hell out of not being armed at all.:faint:

ooc

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/372938565.jpg

No matter how much you'd rather have a 38spl, there are plenty of times where something this big and bulky isn't going to work......just face that fact.
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/200767950.jpg

LawScholar
03-16-2012, 23:55
The LCP, or one that small and thin is the one you can always have, no matter what......

No matter how much you detest the 380, or even 32, 25, or 22.....they all beat the hell out of not being armed at all.:faint:

ooc

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/372938565.jpg

No matter how much you'd rather have a 38spl, there are plenty of times where something this big and bulky isn't going to work......just face that fact.
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/200767950.jpg

Excellent post, and the reason I own my .380.

I'm under no illusions that it's a combat round, but it carries like nothing else.

Reb 56
03-17-2012, 00:02
I can conceal my LCP so much easier than my 642 so thats what I carry in warm weather. In the winter the G26 gets the nod.
The 642 stays in the safe most of the time.

Metal Angel
03-17-2012, 03:13
I wish someone would come up with a .38short cartridge. As I understand it, 38special was designed for a black powder, with the brass topped off, that's why it's so long. It really could be about as short as a .380 cartridge. Imagine how much more concealable the j frames would be if you could cut the cylinder length down by about a third.

hogship
03-17-2012, 03:37
I wish someone would come up with a .38short cartridge. As I understand it, 38special was designed for a black powder, with the brass topped off, that's why it's so long. It really could be about as short as a .380 cartridge. Imagine how much more concealable the j frames would be if you could cut the cylinder length down by about a third.

I've wondered the same thing.......I'm no firearms designer, but it's occurred to me that a short cylinder might be a problem with gasses escaping from the cylinder gap, and the position of the shooter's hands if the cylinder was that short.......don't know for sure. (I suppose it's possible to shield it in some way to overcome that.)

If it was feasible to use a shorter cartridge case, we do have other cartridges already in existence, like the 9mm, or 357sig (:shocked:) that might do pretty darn well in a small, short revolver intended for ccw.......that way, by using star clips, it would kill two birds with one stone, and make reloading much better! :supergrin:

ooc

IV Troop
03-17-2012, 11:52
I wish someone would come up with a .38short cartridge. As I understand it, 38special was designed for a black powder, with the brass topped off, that's why it's so long. It really could be about as short as a .380 cartridge. Imagine how much more concealable the j frames would be if you could cut the cylinder length down by about a third.


You mean like the .38 Long Colt, the .38 short Colt, the .38 Smith and Wesson...:whistling:

hogship
03-17-2012, 12:09
You mean like the .38 Long Colt, the .38 short Colt, the .38 Smith and Wesson...:whistling:

That thought occurred to me, but this is the same reason why we have the longer 357mag case by 1/10th inch over the 38spl.......to prevent the more powerful cartridge from being chambered in a gun that can't take the pressure. The 357mag could easily have been designed around the 38spl case.

The only solution that prevents someone from getting injured, is to design a new cartridge altogether, or use something that doesn't jeopardize the safety of unsuspecting persons.

ooc

Berto
03-17-2012, 20:37
The .380 is more comparable to the old .38 S@W round whereas .38sp compares to
9mmP.
THe .380 will do Ok with careful load selection.

GlockFish
03-17-2012, 22:45
The question was "which is the better round", not "what gun is easier to carry".
Ballistics prove the 38+P is better than the .380.

LawScholar
03-17-2012, 22:56
The question was "which is the better round", not "what gun is easier to carry".
Ballistics prove the 38+P is better than the .380.

The guns a round is chambered in are, in my opinion, a good proportion of the calculation of the worthiness of the round.

The 45 G.A.P is a great ballistic performer, but I think the round is near-useless due to a lack of supportive manufacturers.

Similarly, .500 S&W is ballistics-wise superior to almost every handgun round, but is not necessarily a better round than the .45 ACP for a given task.

Not trying to be difficult, just pointing out that the guns do matter, as the rounds don't exist in a vacuum.

byf43
03-18-2012, 04:54
For defensive purposes, .38 Special gets the nod over the .380 acp, IMNSHO.

The .38 Spec. is bigger, badder, faster, better, cheaper.

(I know. . . . someone's going to stand up and say, "Why don't you go over there and let me shoot you with my LCP in .380 and let's see just how puny it really is.")
:rofl:




"Yeah, o.k. You first. Let's see how you like my Federal Nyclad +P at 10 feet."
:wavey:

hogship
03-18-2012, 06:54
The question was "which is the better round", not "what gun is easier to carry".
Ballistics prove the 38+P is better than the .380.

This is true.....the 38spl is the better of the two. Without the method of using either cartridge, the question isn't relevant to anything, other than in a statistical comparison....

=====================================

OK, do you want relevance?


If you knew in advance this day was the day that you were going to defend yourself against a deadly threat, which one of these two, and only these two weapons would you choose:


BJT derringer in 38spl:
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/393014275.jpg
Mac 11 in 380acp:
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/277730000/277730653/pix879443753.jpg


OK........now choose!


Now we have some relevant application, and a basis for making that choice.:supergrin:


ooc
.

hogship
03-18-2012, 06:58
OK, I admit that was a little facetious.....but, the principle holds true.

In this thread, those who would choose a 380acp over a 38spl to for a defensive purpose, are doing so strictly because they feel the platform is more suitable for ccw within the limitations they personally set for themselves.......it has nothing to do with the peak effectiveness of the cartridge in a sterile statistical sense.


ooc

Chup
03-18-2012, 09:04
If I had to worry about concealment such as a work environment in specific clothing, I would think about size and power. With the size of some of the 9MM. Pistols available I would not carry a 380. I can't see why anyone would buy a 380 when a Kahr PM9 or other 9s of that size are out there. I realize the Kahr cost twice what a LCP cost but, what is your life worth. Slow down save your money and buy what you need. I admit I don't have to worry about what I ware and can conceal a Glock 21 if I want to. I'm just saying if you see the performance of the 380 why not carry the same size gun in 9MM. Now that you 380 lovers hate me, I don't even carry semi-autos. I carry Two 357 Snubs all day every day. Now I'm going to here how 2" 357s are worthless. Hold your breath I have herd it before.

hogship
03-18-2012, 09:17
If I had to worry about concealment such as a work environment in specific clothing, I would think about size and power. With the size of some of the 9MM. Pistols available I would not carry a 380. I can't see why anyone would buy a 380 when a Kahr PM9 or other 9s of that size are out there. I realize the Kahr cost twice what a LCP cost but, what is your life worth. Slow down save your money and buy what you need. I admit I don't have to worry about what I ware and can conceal a Glock 21 if I want to. I'm just saying if you see the performance of the 380 why not carry the same size gun in 9MM. Now that you 380 lovers hate me, I don't even carry semi-autos. I carry Two 357 Snubs all day every day. Now I'm going to here how 2" 357s are worthless. Hold your breath I have herd it before.

If you want to carry two 357 snubs, that's fine with me......
If I were to contemplate that, I'd feel it was borderline ridiculous, but what you do for your own protection is strictly your personal choice......

......but, there is a demonstrable difference in size and thinness between an LCP and PM9. So much of a difference, in fact, that the LCP can go places and be used with clothes, and pockets that the PM9 can't.......it's a simple truth.

In this photo, the two on the right are an LCP and MK40 (which is the exact same size as the PM9) Check it out......there is a difference in size.

ooc

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/372938565.jpg

CDR_Glock
03-18-2012, 10:50
Original poster, don't ask us, use google and look at ballistic data of the two rounds.

I carry a J frame .38 with +p Gold Dots as a back up gun, I would rather have 5 shots of .38 +p than 6 or 7 shots of .380. Thats just me.

There's a lot of misinformation on the Internet. I would like to get a perceptive from people here since a good number is military or LEO.

Being a physician, I've been reading a textbook on Forensic Pathology related to the damage caused by projectiles.

One of the interesting observations is about high caliber projectiles versus smaller caliber projectiles. A 22 tends to ricochet in the cranial vault more than a larger caliber. Most of the literature is based upon the 38. Pathologically, there is no difference in the wound cavity between a hollow point and a full metal jacket on autopsy.

The only certain incapacitation is to hit the brainstem or the basal ganglia. Other than that, even with a cardiac rupture, a person can continue to move for 10 seconds. The only firearms that have a more certain and destructive effect are a high caliber rifle and a shotgun, especially at a close range.




Lifetime NRA Member

Chup
03-18-2012, 13:04
If you want to carry two 357 snubs, that's fine with me......
If I were to contemplate that, I'd feel it was borderline ridiculous, but what you do for your own protection is strictly your personal choice......

......but, there is a demonstrable difference in size and thinness between an LCP and PM9. So much of a difference, in fact, that the LCP can go places and be used with clothes, and pockets that the PM9 can't.......it's a simple truth.

In this photo, the two on the right are an LCP and MK40 (which is the exact same size as the PM9) Check it out......there is a difference in size.

ooc

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1401653/372938565.jpg

I guess I'm not that stylish that my pockets couldn't handle the Kahr. In fact my Wife has to approve the clothes I ware. My taste in clothes pretty much sucks and apparently so does my choice of carry weapons. But, I am what I am.

barth
03-18-2012, 13:13
My S&W 342 ti weights 11.1 oz empty. 13.5 oz loaded with 135 gr 38+P ammo.
100% (not 99) reliable and deadly accurate at close range.
I don't think any .380 out of a 3" barrel is going to match the
performance of Bonded Speer GDHP Short Barrel 135 gr 38 +P from my 2" snubbie.
http://randywakeman.com/SpeerGoldDotTests.jpg
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullet_tests.htm

hogship
03-18-2012, 13:42
I guess I'm not that stylish that my pockets couldn't handle the Kahr. In fact my Wife has to approve the clothes I ware. My taste in clothes pretty much sucks and apparently so does my choice of carry weapons. But, I am what I am.

Don't worry about it, Chup........

Right......you are what you are......:wavey:

You do what you will do, and just because my preferences aren't the same as yours, there isn't a thing wrong with carrying two 357 snubs......hell, that's great! I'd certainly agree that two revolvers are better than one! ......Just isn't within the realm of possibllity for my requirements. :supergrin:

ooc

Haldor
03-18-2012, 15:46
I would love to see something like a J-Frame revolver in 9mm where the cylinder was actually the appropriate length for a 9mm. That could shorten the gun by least 0.39".

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTL819ORfuNFM_XWjgarNanMSnx68bE3f0b586fCwV4aGfVwWiS28UmFIRggQ

A J-frame or a Rino designed for 9mm could be a very compact CCW.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3408/wr642.jpg

barth
03-18-2012, 16:03
I would love to see something like a J-Frame revolver in 9mm where the cylinder was actually the appropriate length for a 9mm. That could shorten the gun by least 0.39".


Ops, I didn't read the short cylinder thingy sorry - LOL!

S&W 940 9mm Centennial

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__KONc6M3jls/SkrerzD0I7I/AAAAAAAAAqQ/iJA4Hqranj0/s640/sw940+008.JPG

Berto
03-18-2012, 16:05
I would love to see something like a J-Frame revolver in 9mm where the cylinder was actually the appropriate length for a 9mm. That could shorten the gun by least 0.39".

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTL819ORfuNFM_XWjgarNanMSnx68bE3f0b586fCwV4aGfVwWiS28UmFIRggQ

A J-frame or a Rino designed for 9mm could be a very compact CCW.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3408/wr642.jpg

I always liked that idea too, esp given moon clips...but the execution has been iffy getting the tapered 9mm case to work well in a revolver and whether it merits the effort when .38sp approximates the same performance with almost half the pressure and more bullet weights.
IIRC they tried doing something similar with 9mm Federal.

BuckyP
03-18-2012, 16:35
I wish someone would come up with a .38short cartridge. As I understand it, 38special was designed for a black powder, with the brass topped off, that's why it's so long. It really could be about as short as a .380 cartridge. Imagine how much more concealable the j frames would be if you could cut the cylinder length down by about a third.


If it was feasible to use a shorter cartridge case, we do have other cartridges already in existence, like the 9mm, or 357sig (:shocked:) that might do pretty darn well in a small, short revolver intended for ccw.......that way, by using star clips, it would kill two birds with one stone, and make reloading much better! :supergrin:


This. Even though they have made 9mm J frames, they are, well J frames. Also, it seems that all the J frames are now cut to accommodate the even longer .357 magnum, even the guns that are "only" chambered in .38 special. I have an older model 36, and you can see that frame is shorter (only long enough for .38 special) than my 642.

PostMortemElvis
03-18-2012, 19:18
Both are deadly given good shot placement, otherwise neither is effective.

That said, I carry 100gr hardcast buffalo bore in my P380 bug.