The real problem with medicine in America [Archive] - Glock Talk

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JuneyBooney
03-15-2012, 21:00
I am sure you guys remember the horsepital visit for me a few weeks ago just to remove a contact les stuck in my eye. Well, guess what they charged.....600.00 to just remove a contact lens. That is as bad as sewing up a wound etc. No wonder our country is broke. :wow:

Dennis in MA
03-15-2012, 21:04
Only the tip of the iceberg.

First, any idea what it costs to staff a hospital?

Second, any idea how many state insured folk get billed full freight?

Third, any idea how many insured peeps get billed full freight?

If Uncle was required to pay real cost for Medicaid patients, there would be a total rationing of care supplied by the state ASAP. You are paying more than your fair share.

mikeflys1
03-15-2012, 21:09
How in the world did you get a contact stuck? :dunno:

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 21:15
How much should it cost? Give us an actual number.

ysr_racer
03-15-2012, 21:17
How is it you're an expert in everything?

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:20
I am sure you guys remember the horsepital visit for me a few weeks ago just to remove a contact les stuck in my eye. Well, guess what they charged.....600.00 to just remove a contact lens. That is as bad as sewing up a wound etc. No wonder our country is broke. :wow:

Yup!
Medical expenses in this country is a F'n joke.

Then you see many hospitals bill insurance companies for things they didnt use or multitudes of something they did use.

And once again, absolutely nothing gets done about it. Health care and insurance could be much less than what it is. Maybe then people could actually afford their medical bills and pay it.

I wish all these damn prescription drug tv commercials would get banned too.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:22
How much should it cost? Give us an actual number.

No reason it should be more than $150

podwich
03-15-2012, 21:25
Doctor's office, urgent care, or emergency department?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:25
No reason it should be more than $150

Interesting. Based on what?

Atlas
03-15-2012, 21:26
No reason it should be more than $150

On what is that figure based?
Are you a medical professional?
Hospital administrator?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:26
Yup!
Medical expenses in this country is a F'n joke.

Then you see many hospitals bill insurance companies for things they didnt use or multitudes of something they did use.

And once again, absolutely nothing gets done about it. Health care and insurance could be much less than what it is. Maybe then people could actually afford their medical bills and pay it.

I wish all these damn prescription drug tv commercials would get banned too.

Only way to effectively reduce medical costs in this country would be to eliminate medicare

AA#5
03-15-2012, 21:27
I am sure you guys remember the horsepital visit for me a few weeks ago just to remove a contact les stuck in my eye. Well, guess what they charged.....600.00 to just remove a contact lens. That is as bad as sewing up a wound etc. No wonder our country is broke. :wow:

Pure greed at its best. I'd say you got away cheap. Sewing up a wound would probably be billed under "Surgical Procedure," more like $6,000.00. When you expressed shock, did they say.....let me guess....."Well, what did you want us to do....leave it there?"

As an LEO told me yesterday: "In this economy, all forms of theft are only going to get worse."

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 21:27
No reason it should be more than $150

Based on what? How do you arrive at that number?

AA#5
03-15-2012, 21:29
Yup!
Medical expenses in this country is a F'n joke.

Then you see many hospitals bill insurance companies for things they didnt use or multitudes of something they did use.

And once again, absolutely nothing gets done about it. Health care and insurance could be much less than what it is. Maybe then people could actually afford their medical bills and pay it.

I wish all these damn prescription drug tv commercials would get banned too.

"I wish all these damn prescription drug tv commercials would get banned too."

No way!! Ya have any idea what drug companies pay for those ads?

Besides, how else can they get patients to help their doctors push drugs??

DIXIE DUCK
03-15-2012, 21:30
So what is your suggested solution? Perhaps private competition with the licensed industry? Would you have preferred to have an unlicensed individual attempt the same work for $150? Just curious!

wrx04
03-15-2012, 21:34
How much should it cost? Give us an actual number.

It depends on what the problem actually was, because I think there was a bigger issue than a "stuck" CL.

If it was only a contact lens that he couldnt remove himself, then $600 is ridiculous. However, he should not have went to the ER for that either. A private practice would remove a lens for <$100 easy.....but again, i think this was more complicated than the OP thinks.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:34
How much should it cost? Give us an actual number.

Interesting. Based on what?

On what is that figure based?
Are you a medical professional?
Hospital administrator?

Based on what? How do you arrive at that number?

I made it up. Just like they probably did that bill.

Why should it be any more?

Back in 2009 my ex-wife had to have a procedure done and got put under. You know what they charged for about 80-100ml of anesthesia? $700!! S... more expensive than friggin gold!
Sorry but that is ridiculous!

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:35
So what is your suggested solution? Perhaps private competition with the licensed industry? Would you have preferred to have an unlicensed individual attempt the same work for $150? Just curious!

I'm unlicensed and am officially extending an open offer to rip a contact lense from your cornea for $25.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:36
I made it up. Just like they probably did that bill.

Why should it be any more?

Back in 2009 my ex-wife had to have a procedure done and got put under. You know what they charged for about 80-100ml of anesthesia? $700!! S... more expensive than friggin gold!
Sorry but that is ridiculous!

Sounds like a bargain! Woulda sucked without it, no?

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:37
Only way to effectively reduce medical costs in this country would be to eliminate medicare

Probably and this ;


Then you see many hospitals bill insurance companies for things they didnt use or multitudes of something they did use.

17119jfkioe
03-15-2012, 21:40
Sounds like a bargain! Woulda sucked without it, no?

It sounds to me like your for price gouging...

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:41
Sounds like a bargain! Woulda sucked without it, no?

Glad you think so. But you didnt have to pay the bill now did you. But yeh it probably would have.

Funny how so many other countries can charge so much less than America does for medical expenses though.

JMS
03-15-2012, 21:43
http://healthcarebluebook.com/

jame
03-15-2012, 21:43
To facilitate my ties to farm and family, I've been working at a local county hospital for the last two years, and after 30 years in private enterprise, I can tell you that, at least at our place, efficiencies are no where near those of private industry.

Profit is not exactly our forte', and the focus of making big money seems to be of the vendor side, not the service side.

Ironically, the new health care bill is driving efficiencies in our group, not necessarily to embrace the new regulations, but to avoid (get around) them. In other words, if you think health care will get better, think again. We're thinking of getting better use with our money, just like any other business. By cutting staff, increasing work week hours, and selecting low bid vendors. You get all of that goodness with only a slight tax increase.

teumessian_fox
03-15-2012, 21:44
Law dictates everyone gets medical care. Even if they won't pay. Illegals. Welfare deadbeats. Everybody.

I used to live in kalifornia in the central valley. We had no fewer than five emergency rooms close their doors according to, the Sacramento Bee, because illegals used the ER as a primary care provider. They'd bring their brats in for flu and colds, lie about names and addresses. And the hospitals ate the costs. This crap goes on all the time.

So, doctors, hospitals, clinics, etc, have to pass on those costs or else go out of business.

And when the government starts enforcing nationalized health care with price ceilings on what doctors can charge, said doctors are just going to quit.

Then let's see what you whiners have to say. When you can't get decent health care at any price.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:44
It sounds to me like your for price gouging...

There is no such thing.

Can you give me an example?

If I have a product that you want to purchase, who should set the price?

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 21:44
I made it up. Just like they probably did that bill.

Why should it be any more?

Back in 2009 my ex-wife had to have a procedure done and got put under. You know what they charged for about 80-100ml of anesthesia? $700!! S... more expensive than friggin gold!
Sorry but that is ridiculous!

So what you are saying is you have no idea what goes into setting a price...but you are sure you can "feel" your way to what is "right" or "wrong?"

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:45
Glad you think so. But you didnt have to pay the bill now did you. But yeh it probably would have.

Funny how so many other countries can charge so much less than America does for medical expenses though.

And the quality and availability of care is so excellent there!

The real problem with healthcare in America is people don't pay ENOUGH for it.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:46
So what you are saying is you have no idea what goes into setting a price...but you are sure you can "feel" your way to what is "right" or "wrong?"

Yes. That is what he's saying.

Socialists call it the "feel curve".

Its an economics thing. You wouldn't understand.

bob_fuller
03-15-2012, 21:49
Funny how so many other countries can charge so much less than America does for medical expenses though.

They have to pay for it somehow. My guess is they just pay for it indirectly through taxes in other countries, rather than up front like here.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:50
Bull. i wouldnt have paid a cent if i went to the ER in New Zealand for that.

That would also have been far less in South Africa which has some of the best Doctors in the World.

17119jfkioe
03-15-2012, 21:50
There is no such thing.

Can you give me an example?

If I have a product that you want to purchase, who should set the price?

My point exactly :wavey:

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:54
My point exactly :wavey:

So you don't want to answer.

Figures.

bob_fuller
03-15-2012, 21:54
Bull. i wouldnt have paid a cent if i went to the ER in New Zealand for that.

That would also have been far less in South Africa which has some of the best Doctors in the World.

So they would have just done it for free because they're nice? Paid for it out of their own pockets?

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:55
The real problem with healthcare in America is people don't pay ENOUGH for it.

Get real..along with everything else right?

How does someone making minimum wage, afford a house, or rent, along with a car payment, living expenses, gas and these outrages medical bills, along with any unexpected costs have a decent living?

I make a little over minimum wage and can barely get by.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:55
Bull. i wouldnt have paid a cent if i went to the ER in New Zealand for that.

That would also have been far less in South Africa which has some of the best Doctors in the World.

South African doctors: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/11/south-africa-lost-14-billion-training-doctors-who-emigrated.html

I guess they actually want to get paid for their skills.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 21:56
So they would have just done it for free because they're nice? Paid for it out of their own pockets?

It would have been covered under ACC. Which you pay taxes for.

teumessian_fox
03-15-2012, 21:57
The real problem with healthcare in America is people don't pay ENOUGH for it.

Not exactly. The problem is that the people who should be paying, don't pay.

Govt mandates everybody receives medical care. Billions of dollars of fees go unpaid. Then you pay for it.

JMS
03-15-2012, 21:57
Law dictates everyone gets medical care. Even if they won't pay. Illegals. Welfare deadbeats. Everybody.

I used to live in kalifornia in the central valley. We had no fewer than five emergency rooms close their doors according to, the Sacramento Bee, because illegals used the ER as a primary care provider. They'd bring their brats in for flu and colds, lie about names and addresses. And the hospitals ate the costs. This crap goes on all the time.

So, doctors, hospitals, clinics, etc, have to pass on those costs or else go out of business.

And when the government starts enforcing nationalized health care with price ceilings on what doctors can charge, said doctors are just going to quit.

Then let's see what you whiners have to say. When you can't get decent health care at any price.

Before dealing with existing illegals they need to close the border, dealing with illegals without closing the border is like trying to bail out a boat with a teacup.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 21:58
Get real..along with everything else right?



If the government provided free or subsidized gas for 50% of the drivers in the U.S., what would a gallon cost?

If employers paid for insurance that gave you 10 gallons of gas for the price of 1 gallon of gas, what would a gallon cost?

price discovery

How does someone making minimum wage, afford a house, or rent, along with a car payment, living expenses, gas and these outrages medical bills, along with any unexpected costs have a decent living?

I make a little over minimum wage and can barely get by

Sounds like you made some poor choice in your life. Hope you turn it around.

bob_fuller
03-15-2012, 21:59
It would have been covered under ACC. Which you pay taxes for.

Then it's paid for by someone, which was my original point. Why is it so awful to pay the fee up front for services received, but bearable to cough up taxes for medical care you may never need?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:00
Not exactly. The problem is that the people who should be paying, don't pay.

Govt mandates everybody receives medical care. Billions of dollars of fees go unpaid. Then you pay for it.

Actually, they're both the problem. Good point.

The government mandate on ERs needs to end.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:00
South African doctors: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/11/south-africa-lost-14-billion-training-doctors-who-emigrated.html

I guess they actually want to get paid for their skills.

Who doesnt?
Sure the biggest reason many of the doctors in SA leave is because of what they can get paid overseas. Its also a ticket out of SA though.

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:00
Get real..along with everything else right?

How does someone making minimum wage, afford a house, or rent, along with a car payment, living expenses, gas and these outrages medical bills, along with any unexpected costs have a decent living?

I make a little over minimum wage and can barely get by.

Why does another person owe you from what he makes so that you can have a "decent" living?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:01
It would have been covered under ACC. Which you pay taxes for.

But you only make minimum wage, which means you aren't paying much in taxes.

Yet you want all the medical care.

So what you're really saying is that you want someone else to pay for your medical care.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:02
Who doesnt?
Sure the biggest reason many of the doctors in SA leave is because of what they can get paid overseas. Its also a ticket out of SA though.

But you said its better in South Africa. They have great doctors and a great healthcare system and its all free.

Ooops! Whaddya mean the doctors leave?

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:03
No way!! Ya have any idea what drug companies pay for those ads?

They pay the same price for a TV ad as Pepsi, Coke, Dorritos, etc pay for an ad.

I don't see you wanting to ban them from advertising a product.

-Dana

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:06
Sounds like you made some poor choice in your life. Hope you turn it around.

How do you figure?

I came from losing my job, wife, everything. No place to stay or go. Have no family in the U.S, to now having a job, a car, roof over my head and a great girlfriend. All in a little over a year.
Job pays for my Health and Dental Insurance too.

But thanks for your concern.

Peace Warrior
03-15-2012, 22:07
I was just recently charged $550.00 by a doctor for a swollen knee visit. He was in my room maybe 5 minutes total. The first visit was about 2 minutes with him inspecting the knee and then ordering an x-ray. The second and final visit took maybe three minutes with him 1, ordering a pair a crutches for me before I left, 2, writing a scrip for narcotics which I asked him NOT to do (I asked for rx motrin), and 3, him telling me he didn't know what was wrong further advising me that I needed to go see a specialist.

I caught him on the way out after his second and last visit and ask him what exactly was wrong with my knee. He advised he was listing it as a "knee sprain" in my file as he only really knew what is wasn't, which it wasn't gout or trouble from a blood clot. The doctor that actually took the water off the knee billed me $630, which was a deal considering the relief I felt afterward!!! :dancingbanana:

HUGE difference in price, but what are you gonna do?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:08
How do you figure?

With rare exception, if you follow the rabbit hole far enough, a person's place in life is directly attributable to the sum total of his choices.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:10
Funny how so many other countries can charge so much less than America does for medical expenses though.

Lets take your example. Lets take Germany which,outside the USA, is essentially the gold standard for care.

Did you realize that Germany has TWO medical systems? There is the public system and the private system. The public hospitals/doctors you have long waits for appointments. The hospitals: you are in a ward sharing the room with 20 other patients. Air Conditioning? Nope. Think 1950s style bedside manners. In the USA I have only seen wards in the movies. I have been in German hospitals and seen the wards.

Now the private system, very nice hospitals. Just like the new modern ones in the USA. But guess what. If you show up there, even in emergency (unless you are dying..not a broken leg or other "emergency") you are sent away unless you participate in the private system.

The USA gives EVERYONE good care even if you don't pay. Just the people paying actually are paying for those who don't pay.

-Dana

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:13
With rare exception, if you follow the rabbit hole far enough, a person's place in life is directly attributable to the sum total of his choices.

Edited my last post.


I came from losing my job, wife, everything. No place to stay or go. Have no family in the U.S, to now having a job, a car, roof over my head and a great girlfriend. All in a little over a year.
Job pays for my Health and Dental Insurance too.

But thanks for your concern.

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:14
The USA gives EVERYONE good care even if you don't pay. Just the people paying actually are paying for those who don't pay.

-Dana

Agreed, I wish the have nots would just die and stop riding on our coat tails.

If anyone disagrees with me they must be commie reds.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:15
Lets take your example. Lets take Germany which,outside the USA, is essentially the gold standard for care.

Did you realize that Germany has TWO medical systems? There is the public system and the private system. The public hospitals/doctors you have long waits for appointments. The hospitals: you are in a ward sharing the room with 20 other patients. Air Conditioning? Nope. Think 1950s style bedside manners. In the USA I have only seen wards in the movies. I have been in German hospitals and seen the wards.

Now the private system, very nice hospitals. Just like the new modern ones in the USA. But guess what. If you show up there, even in emergency (unless you are dying..not a broken leg or other "emergency") you are sent away unless you participate in the private system.

The USA gives EVERYONE good care even if you don't pay. Just the people paying actually are paying for those who don't pay.

-Dana

South Africa and New Zealand have a similar system.

17119jfkioe
03-15-2012, 22:16
With rare exception, if you follow the rabbit hole far enough, a person's place in life is directly attributable to the sum total of his choices.

Where did you get this? Do you have facts to back it up, or is this just the way you FEEL?

DIXIE DUCK
03-15-2012, 22:18
I'm unlicensed and am officially extending an open offer to rip a contact lense from your cornea for $25.

Perfect. Ok folks why are you still complaining? Dr. Certified here ain't price gouging! Why hasn't anyone taken up his offer?

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:18
But you said its better in South Africa. They have great doctors and a great healthcare system and its all free.

Ooops! Whaddya mean the doctors leave?

I never said that. I said they have some of the best doctors in the world. I also said their health care is a lot cheaper than here. I never said anything about free.

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:18
Where did you get this? Do you have facts to back it up, or is this just the way you FEEL?

There's a few people on this forum who believe their opinion truly means more than others. I'm not going to call them out though. It's funny to see them make fools of themselves.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:18
I made it up. Just like they probably did that bill.

Why should it be any more?

Back in 2009 my ex-wife had to have a procedure done and got put under. You know what they charged for about 80-100ml of anesthesia? $700!! S... more expensive than friggin gold!
Sorry but that is ridiculous!

Do you know why anesthesia is so expensive? Half of what is charged goes to pay malpractice insurance. A person is most likely to die from anesthesia than any other procedure in a hospital.

Did you read the first line of the form you signed? It says the anesthesia might kill you. You sign a "waiver". And guess what happens when a patient dies? Does the family go away and say the patient knew the risk or want to sue?

-Dana

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:19
Where did you get this? Do you have facts to back it up, or is this just the way you FEEL?

Are you actually going to make your stand that most people are not a fairly accurate representation of the sum total of their choices? Are you going to be that guy?

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:20
I never said that. I said they have some of the best doctors in the world. I also said their health care is a lot cheaper than here. I never said anything about free.

And did you know that when a company wants to perform a clinical trial that the European ethical committees won;t sign off on, they go to South Africa because of the much looser regulations?

-Dana

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:21
Edited my last post.

Like I said, I hope you turn it around. Sounds like you are.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:22
But you only make minimum wage, which means you aren't paying much in taxes.

Yet you want all the medical care.

So what you're really saying is that you want someone else to pay for your medical care.

What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:22
There's a few people on this forum who believe their opinion truly means more than others. I'm not going to call them out though. It's funny to see them make fools of themselves.

That was smoooooth

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:22
A person is most likely to die from anesthesia than any other procedure in a hospital.



That is not true. There are many procedures with a higher mortality rate than being anesthetized.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:23
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

I already told you why it is expensive earlier in the thread.

17119jfkioe
03-15-2012, 22:24
Are you actually going to make your stand that most people are not a fairly accurate representation of the sum total of their choices? Are you going to be that guy?

I was asking for the facts Mr. Rabbi, a practice you are very familiar with...:wavey:

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:24
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

The poor deserve to die. That's the consensus, if you disagree you're a socialist commie red pig! Why should it be affordable. It doesn't have to be. Instead of thinking of solutions just come up with the same rhetoric thread after thread. Why should our government get anything done, let's decide who's more right first the Republicans or the Democrats. If you disagree you must be a liberal or a commie!

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:24
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

Why cant a Ferrari be affordable?

What right do you have to the labors of others?

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:25
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

It has to be expensive so they'll be stay at home dad's who are supported by their women and if it wasn't high they'd have to work! D'uh.

Don't question the system! Commie.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:26
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

Why don't you come over to my house and do some work in my yard for what ever I think your services are worth?

Or better, yet, why don't you go write a half billion dollar check to research, do the clinical trial, bring up an FDA approved manufacturing facility, and then go give the drugs away for what ever you deem AFFORDABLE to be?

Or hell, maybe you can help me out. I need some implant cases machined. I was quoted $800 for each implant (just bare titanium housing that does nothing). Why don't you make thme for me and I will give your $25 each?

-Dana

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:27
That was smoooooth

How am I doing? I think you've really had a positive influence on me.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:27
The poor deserve to die. That's the consensus, if you disagree you're a socialist commie red pig! Why should it be affordable. It doesn't have to be. Instead of thinking of solutions just come up with the same rhetoric thread after thread. Why should our government get anything done, let's decide who's more right first the Republicans or the Democrats. If you disagree you must be a liberal or a commie!

Well, lets think about it instead of getting angry.

Why is healthcare different from any other good or service?

If someone can't afford healthcare, why should someone else be forced to pay for it?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:27
How am I doing? I think you've really had a positive influence on me.

It is a rewarding undertaking.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:29
Why cant a Ferrari be affordable?

What right do you have to the labors of others?

You do have a point there. They should be affordable because I want one and $300k is out of my price range for a car. They should be forced to sell me one for like, $14k because Kia can make a car for $14k.

-Dana

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:29
Well, lets think about it instead of getting angry.

Why is healthcare different from any other good or service?

If someone can't afford healthcare, why should someone else be forced to pay for it?

I don't, I think if someone has pre-existing conditions or can't afford health care they should be left to die. Anything but that would be un-American. Let them charge it on the credit cards and work for the rest of their lives to pay it off. U.S.A.!!

My personal favorite thing to do would be to buy up anti-cancer drugs to dry up the market and charge 1000% more to the patients who require it. If they can't afford it they die, if they can I get rich. Win win. USA, USA, USA.

Atlas
03-15-2012, 22:31
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

Not so long ago I heard a young woman lament, "why do we have to pay for food ???"

This woman would starve and die if she had to grow/produce the food she eats.

jame
03-15-2012, 22:32
That is not true. There are many procedures with a higher mortality rate than being anesthetized.

I had the same opinion about anesthesia. What are some examples of higher mortality? Are you talking about a percentage of all procedures, or a comparison of similar procedures? (Heart transplant, for example, would be higher in mortality rate?)

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:32
If anyone want, I am feel that I have become quite the accomplished surgeon. Of course it has been 6 years or so since I performed the surgery. I even trained surgeons how to implant devices. Not a single patient I ever cut into, drilled holes into their skulls, put bone screws in, etc complained. The patients got my services free of charge. Who wants me operating on them?

-Dana

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:33
It has to be expensive so they'll be stay at home dad's who are supported by their women and if it wasn't high they'd have to work! D'uh.

Don't question the system! Commie.

No! You didn't hear? The bastards brought me back to work!

:rofl:

Didn't really want to......well, kinda, well, some offers are just tough to refuse!

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:34
No! You didn't hear? The bastards brought me back to work!

:rofl:

Didn't really want to......well, kinda, well, some offers are just tough to refuse!

? I was generally speaking.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:35
Well, lets think about it instead of getting angry.

Why is healthcare different from any other good or service?

If someone can't afford healthcare, why should someone else be forced to pay for it?

Someone else shouldnt be forced to pay it.

But if it was affordable in the first place, maybe people would pay their damn bills instead of it going to collections or filing for bankruptcy.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:35
I don't, I think if someone has pre-existing conditions or can't afford health care they should be left to die. Anything but that would be un-American. Let them charge it on the credit cards and work for the rest of their lives to pay it off. U.S.A.!!

My personal favorite thing to do would be to buy up anti-cancer drugs to dry up the market and charge 1000% more to the patients who require it. If they can't afford it they die, if they can I get rich. Win win. USA, USA, USA.

You really are getting delirious.:rofl:

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:36
? I was generally speaking.

Sure you were

Its kinda stalker-creepy though, I have to say.

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:37
Someone else shouldnt be forced to pay it.

But if it was affordable in the first place, maybe people would pay their damn bills instead of it going to collections or filing for bankruptcy.

I've helped out others in similar situations, either A)offer to pay them what insurance would or B)pay them whatever you are able to pay. I helped someone make arrangements for $50 a month on a $25k bill. They're happy, the hospital is happy they're getting something. No reason to file BKO for medical.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:37
Why cant a Ferrari be affordable?

What right do you have to the labors of others?

Because its a Ferrari.

I dont and not saying that i should.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:37
Someone else shouldnt be forced to pay it.

But if it was affordable in the first place, maybe people would pay their damn bills instead of it going to collections or filing for bankruptcy.

Sure. Ok. So, you have to figure out why it is expensive. Consider the things that cause price inflation.

Then, end subsidized medical care for the largest consumers of medical care.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:38
That is not true. There are many procedures with a higher mortality rate than being anesthetized.

I am not stating it correctly. There are very risky procedures, but these are genearlly taken because if you don't do them, you will die.

Anesthesia is the most likely to kill you for a procedure that you are not as risk of dying from before the procedure.

Also, most patients that die on the OR table, die due to heart stopping and breathing stopping (kinda the definition of death). Many times, since the patient is under anesthesia it is a complication of the anesthesia and not of the other procedure because in lawyers eyes complications of anesthesia are easier to prove.

Go look at the insurance costs of anesthesiologists compared to other doctors.

-Dana

DIXIE DUCK
03-15-2012, 22:38
You do have a point there. They should be affordable because I want one and $300k is out of my price range for a car. They should be forced to sell me one for like, $14k because Kia can make a car for $14k.

-Dana

So should different qualities of health care be offered for different prices?

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:41
And did you know that when a company wants to perform a clinical trial that the European ethical committees won;t sign off on, they go to South Africa because of the much looser regulations?

-Dana

And??

They still have some of the best doctors in the world.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:41
So should different qualities of health care be offered for different prices?

I fail to see what that has to do with me getting a Ferrari?

-Dana

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:42
Do you know why anesthesia is so expensive? Half of what is charged goes to pay malpractice insurance. A person is most likely to die from anesthesia than any other procedure in a hospital.

Did you read the first line of the form you signed? It says the anesthesia might kill you. You sign a "waiver". And guess what happens when a patient dies? Does the family go away and say the patient knew the risk or want to sue?

-Dana

Well in that case its understandable.

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:44
Sure you were

Its kinda stalker-creepy though, I have to say.

Profiling is one of the things the KGB teaches us well :tongueout:

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:45
Do you know why anesthesia is so expensive? Half of what is charged goes to pay malpractice insurance. A person is most likely to die from anesthesia than any other procedure in a hospital.

Did you read the first line of the form you signed? It says the anesthesia might kill you. You sign a "waiver". And guess what happens when a patient dies? Does the family go away and say the patient knew the risk or want to sue?

-Dana

What's the purpose of a waiver if someone can still sue? Why have them sign a waiver in the first place?

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:45
Sure. Ok. So, you have to figure out why it is expensive. Consider the things that cause price inflation.

Then, end subsidized medical care for the largest consumers of medical care.

Well you and i already agree on that.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:46
And??

They still have some of the best doctors in the world.

You think that.

I have seen hospitals all over (none in SA) and I will tell you what, I will chose and American hospital and doctor over foriegn ones any day.

As an example, a medical doctor in Germany is not a post graduate degree. Specialists are, but generalists are not.

6 years to become a doctor in germany. How may 24 -25 year old doctors have you visited in the USA?


http://www.medknowledge.de/germany/study/students_medicine_germany.htm



-Dana

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:46
What's the purpose of a waiver if someone can still sue? Why have them sign a waiver in the first place?

Thats what i was wondering?

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:47
What's the purpose of a waiver if someone can still sue? Why have them sign a waiver in the first place?

Informed Consent. Medical ethics.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/legal-topics/patient-physician-relationship-topics/informed-consent.page

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:49
Profiling is one of the things the KGB teaches us well :tongueout:

Ok, that was clever :wavey:

DIXIE DUCK
03-15-2012, 22:49
I fail to see what that has to do with me getting a Ferrari?

-Dana
Ohh sorry I can't help with your car problem. I was trying to see if anyone here had any ideas that would improve our health care system.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:50
And??

They still have some of the best doctors in the world.

Seriously, read between the lines just a little.

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:51
Informed Consent. Medical ethics.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/legal-topics/patient-physician-relationship-topics/informed-consent.page

Which can be done via a consent form. A waiver should be written to preclude even the possibility of a lawsuit. Sorry, ___ signed the waiver, he died, the waiver clearly said that was a possibility and the waiver (waved) the right of the estate to sue.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:51
What's the purpose of a waiver if someone can still sue? Why have them sign a waiver in the first place?

I dunno. It looks pretty? Why does everything want a waiver and people can still sue? Once you figure it out, let me know too.

-Dana

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:51
I am not stating it correctly. There are very risky procedures, but these are genearlly taken because if you don't do them, you will die.

Anesthesia is the most likely to kill you for a procedure that you are not as risk of dying from before the procedure.

Still not true (you are not stating it correctly) all procedures carry a risk. Some a very high risk.

Also, most patients that die on the OR table, die due to heart stopping and breathing stopping (kinda the definition of death). Many times, since the patient is under anesthesia it is a complication of the anesthesia and not of the other procedure because in lawyers eyes complications of anesthesia are easier to prove.

Go look at the insurance costs of anesthesiologists compared to other doctors.

-Dana

In general, Neurosurgeons have the highest insurance costs.

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:53
You think that.

I have seen hospitals all over (none in SA) and I will tell you what, I will chose and American hospital and doctor over foriegn ones any day.

As an example, a medical doctor in Germany is not a post graduate degree. Specialists are, but generalists are not.

-Dana

To each his own.

Not saying its different anywhere else but more people die in the US from infections they got from being in hospital, than people that die from breast cancer.

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:53
We can all agree the medical system is broken, regardless of which side you stand on. The question that I haven't heard answered is how do we fix it.

Reminds me of Congress, "fix the budget", ok we will once we decide which side is right and which is wrong. In the mean time we're all left pissing in the wind.

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:54
Because its a Ferrari.

I dont and not saying that i should.

What makes a Ferrari valuable? Can you answer that question? Actually financially answer that question? I mean they could build a million of them just like they do with Ford Trucks or the like.

What is it you think that DOESNT make the Surgeon valuable?

JMS
03-15-2012, 22:55
To each his own.

Not saying its different anywhere else but more people die in the US from infections they got from being in hospital, than people that die from breast cancer.

I'd be afraid to be worked on by a German doctor. I have a feeling they'd see my Judaism oriented tattoos and magically I wouldn't make it out of surgery. "But it was only a splinter."

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:55
Which can be done via a consent form. A waiver should be written to preclude even the possibility of a lawsuit. Sorry, ___ signed the waiver, he died, the waiver clearly said that was a possibility and the waiver (waved) the right of the estate to sue.

Interesting read on the topic

http://books.google.com/books?id=fXpgZsdNeZwC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=what+is+the+purpose+of+an+anesthesia+waiver&source=bl&ots=HMqV8CjUq3&sig=PhlJBM52UcBRBJbVxmW99wZgzQw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dsdiT6HYEqX_sQLl7dycCw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20the%20purpose%20of%20an%20anesthesia%20waiver&f=false

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:56
Ohh sorry I can't help with your car problem. I was trying to see if anyone here had any ideas that would improve our health care system.

I offered to do surgeries cheap. We will just go to mexico to do them. Pacemaker? I got a few extras laying around. What would be a fair price? $500 installed?

-Dana

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 22:57
What's the purpose of a waiver if someone can still sue? Why have them sign a waiver in the first place?

It mitigates the circumstances.

You can sue for anything but what you can win, in general, is for negligence. Somethings, including death, can happen in "due course" of a surgery. You are being told about those things up front.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 22:57
We can all agree the medical system is broken, regardless of which side you stand on. The question that I haven't heard answered is how do we fix it.



Healthcare and higher education both suffer from the same affliction.

The fix is the same.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 22:58
I'd be afraid to be worked on by a German doctor. I have a feeling they'd see my Judaism oriented tattoos and magically I wouldn't make it out of surgery. "But it was only a splinter."

I can give ya a special deal on tatoo removal. I think a Nd:YAG laser will remove them quite nicely.

-Dana

Slug71
03-15-2012, 22:58
What makes a Ferrari valuable? Can you answer that question? Actually financially answer that question? I mean they could build a million of them just like they do with Ford Trucks or the like.

What is it you think that DOESNT make the Surgeon valuable?

Perhaps because they are built mostly of carbon Fiber and Aluminum. But they are also hand built.

I never said a surgeon wasnt valuable.
Its also not only their services that contribute to the cost of health care.

JMS
03-15-2012, 23:00
I can give ya a special deal on tatoo removal. I think a Nd:YAG laser will remove them quite nicely.

-Dana

I appreciate it but I wear my Israeli flag, etc proudly.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 23:00
I can give ya a special deal on tatoo removal. I think a Nd:YAG laser will remove them quite nicely.

-Dana

You laugh but in a past life........

JMS
03-15-2012, 23:02
Perhaps because they are built mostly of carbon Fiber and Aluminum. But they are also hand built.

I never said a surgeon wasnt valuable.
Its also not only their services that contribute to the cost of health care.

They're valuable because some shmuck is willing to pay the price for it. Give me a used F355 6-speed yellow spyder that's already depreciated and due for a belt service.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:03
You laugh but in a past life........

You used an Nd:YAG laser for tattoo removal?

-Dana

JMS
03-15-2012, 23:04
You used an Nd:YAG laser for tattoo removal?

-Dana

Gender reassignment :rofl:

Slug71
03-15-2012, 23:06
They're valuable because some shmuck is willing to pay the price for it. Give me a used F355 6-speed yellow spyder that's already depreciated and due for a belt service.

Well and that.
And yeh id totally take one of those. They sound awesome too!

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 23:08
You used an Nd:YAG laser for tattoo removal?

-Dana

If we had them sitting around with the Holmium lasers and someone wanted it done I'm not sure it would have been legal...

JMS
03-15-2012, 23:09
Well and that.
And yeh id totally take one of those. They sound awesome too!

The 8's have always sounded better than their 12's. Lamborghini's 12's have always sounded best of all though. I'll take deep over shreiky anyday.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:09
Its also not only their services that contribute to the cost of health care.

So what contributes to the cost of health care that you think can be magically lowered?

Let me ask you this.

You have a heart attack. You need a ICD put into you. What is that ICD worth to you?

Lets do this with pictures:

YOU:

http://healthinformationworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/cold-weather-boost-heart-attack-risk-267x300.jpg


Which is worth more?

http://www.lavazzaarticle.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Implantable-Cardioverter-Defibrillators-5.jpg

http://www.automotorblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ferrari-599-84.jpg

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:10
Gender reassignment :rofl:

But you will need to sign a waiver and informed consent papers.

-Dana

JMS
03-15-2012, 23:11
So what contributes to the cost of health care that you think can be magically lowered?

Let me ask you this.

You have a heart attack. You need a ICD put into you. What is that ICD worth to you?

Lets do this with pictures:

YOU:

http://healthinformationworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/cold-weather-boost-heart-attack-risk-267x300.jpg


Which is worth more?

http://www.lavazzaarticle.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Implantable-Cardioverter-Defibrillators-5.jpg

http://www.automotorblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ferrari-599-84.jpg

At least the 612 guarantees you're getting to the hospital in time, so I'd say the Ferrari is worth more.

BTW who's designing Ferrari's nowadays? Is Pininfarina, etc designing these hideous cars? Ech! Not that Lamborghini is doing much better with the Aventador. It's like a Diablo and a Countach mated.

certifiedfunds
03-15-2012, 23:11
But you will need to sign a waiver and informed consent papers.

-Dana

Risk of anesthesia is too great

He'd be better off just tucking his junk

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:15
You guys are distracting me from working. And you wonder why medical care costs so much. Some poor schmuck may wet himself while I screw around here.

-Dana

GVFlyer
03-15-2012, 23:21
There are models for good medicine in the U.S. where consumers can shop for prices and those prices are actually decreasing. Unfortunately, so far it's only boutique medicine like plastic surgery and lasik. Look at medical costs in Switzerland, where all medical care is in the private sector, to see a better model than exists in America where 51 cents of every healthcare dollar is spent in the public sector for Medicare/Medicaid.

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 23:25
Perhaps because they are built mostly of carbon Fiber and Aluminum. But they are also hand built.

I never said a surgeon wasnt valuable.
Its also not only their services that contribute to the cost of health care.

Nah, you dont get it. You simply dont understand finance and economics. You just know what you want. We are all that way about something, so I am not "picking" on you, I am just showing, on this issue, you dont have facts, you have feelings.

You may be good at something, I dont have a clue who you are or what you are about but market forces, value, finance, economcs, economies of scale...and so on.... Those are not your skill sets. That is cool but your opinion on these things dont show you are wise, they prove you dont understand them.

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 23:25
At least the 612 guarantees you're getting to the hospital in time, so I'd say the Ferrari is worth more.

BTW who's designing Ferrari's nowadays? Is Pininfarina, etc designing these hideous cars? Ech! Not that Lamborghini is doing much better with the Aventador. It's like a Diablo and a Countach mated.

That is not a 612. It is a 599.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:29
That is not a 612. It is a 599.

At least someone knows their Ferarris. But I still prefer a C-GT.

-Dana

treeline
03-15-2012, 23:30
I have seen hospitals all over (none in SA) and I will tell you what, I will chose and American hospital and doctor over foriegn ones any day.

As an example, a medical doctor in Germany is not a post graduate degree. Specialists are, but generalists are not.


Why would it need to be a post-graduate degree? In many countries, Germany included, the pre-med courses aren't generally seen as enough to earn a first degree. Medical degrees are a medicine major right from the start. Anyone who is a qualified doctor in Germany (or France, or the UK) should be of roughly the same standard as a doctor in the US.

You might laugh at this but I suspect you've fallen for the thinking that because something's different it must be worse. People choose to travel to Germany (and France, and the UK) for care because they have as high a standard of clinical skill as the US. The real failings of the socialized systems is usually waiting lists and non-clinical stuff like shabby buildings, but the actual clinical care is first rate.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:32
How about this.

I will stick carbon fiber on the outside of beer cans. Then I will have aluminum and carbon fiber beer cans and I will be rich.

Kinda a funny side story. I am a part owner in a prothestics company that uses a lot of carbon fiber. Most docs/patients LIKE the carbon fiber (its half the weight and 1/3 the tickness of traditional thermoplastic devices) yet they don't seem to want pay extra for the carbon fiber. Maybe aluminum was added....

-Dana

JMS
03-15-2012, 23:35
That is not a 612. It is a 599.

Close enough, they look nearly the same and are as uninspiring as the 456 and its other front engine predecessors.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:36
Why would it need to be a post-graduate degree? In many countries, Germany included, the pre-med courses aren't generally seen as enough to earn a first degree. Medical degrees are a medicine major right from the start. Anyone who is a qualified doctor in Germany (or France, or the UK) should be of roughly the same standard as a doctor in the US.

You might laugh at this but I suspect you've fallen for the thinking that because something's different it must be worse. People choose to travel to Germany (and France, and the UK) for care because they have as high a standard of clinical skill as the US. The real failings of the socialized systems is usually waiting lists and non-clinical stuff like shabby buildings, but the actual clinical care is first rate.

So let me ask it this way.

1) How many German doctors have you used as a patient?
2) How many German doctors have you worked with?
3) How many German doctors do you know?

I highly suspect I have had more opportunity to use European doctors than most people. I CHOOSE to US doctors.



-Dana

Rabbi
03-15-2012, 23:37
Why would it need to be a post-graduate degree? In many countries, Germany included, the pre-med courses aren't generally seen as enough to earn a first degree. Medical degrees are a medicine major right from the start. Anyone who is a qualified doctor in Germany (or France, or the UK) should be of roughly the same standard as a doctor in the US.

.

I would, to a point, agree with this. Not having an undergrad would not change the kind of doctor many doctors in the US would be. However, with some specialties, hard science/engineering undergrads simply make for a better doctor.

The other side of that is an undergrad does produce an important part of the vetting process. The 22 year old with a 3.85 and a degree in Physics is a pretty good candidate. Whereas the 19 year old with a handful of science classes...a lot more hit or miss.

DanaT
03-15-2012, 23:39
People choose to travel to Germany (and France, and the UK) for care because they have as high a standard of clinical skill as the US.

This is not the case. They typically travel because what is available in the EU (and CH) is approved with a CE Mark which is much less stringent to get than FDA approval. Most of the time, devices and drugs will have a European trial and obtain a CE before attempting to go for an FDA IDE.

The differences in approval processes results in therapies being available earlier in Europe and since efficacy is not required for a CE mark, there is more latitude in market.


-Dana

SIG-O-MATIC
03-15-2012, 23:46
Americans have been divorced from the financial consequences of receiving health care. Insurance/Medicare is the culprit. Why restrict or regulate your lifestyle choices when there are no financial consequences? Amazingly, this shielding of patients from the financial burdens of their care has spawned a popular perception that access and payment for health care are "rights" that somebody ELSE should have to pay for. It is an easy sentimental trap to fall into - it isn't FAIR that I'm sick, so why the hell should I have to pay for it! I see an iPad in every hand, a truck and snowmobiles in every driveway, and full restaurant parking lots on Tuesday nights, but God forbid if I have to pay $1000 to see two doctors who successfully fix my bad knee. People apparently want first world entertainment and technology, but third world medicine.

One way to reduce health care spending is shift the financial responsibility for health care payment away from the government, insurance companies, and employers back to patients. Unfortunately, this is precisely the opposite of what Obamacare accomplishes.

Instead, the government and employers should encourage high deductible/catastrophic insurance policies. The premiums on such policies are (relatively) cheap, thus freeing up money (passed to employees via higher salary) that employee patients can use to pay for ROUTINE and EXPECTED health care problems (including bad knees and stuck contact lenses).

JuneyBooney
03-15-2012, 23:55
How in the world did you get a contact stuck? :dunno:

It was a Synergeyes Clearkone which is hard in the center and soft on the outside. They don't tell you that the lens must be really wet to come out and fingers dry. So it was like glued on. The physician's assistant took twenty minutes to get it out but I spent most of the time just sitting around.:shocked: I almost fell down when I saw the bill.

JuneyBooney
03-15-2012, 23:57
How much should it cost? Give us an actual number.

No more than 200.00 at most. It was a night and they were not busy at all. Probably even less than that if you look at it realistically. But 200.00 would be ok even though a doc at his office would charge 60.00

JuneyBooney
03-15-2012, 23:58
How is it you're an expert in everything?

Who, me or Rabbi? I don't know anything about anything. :rofl:

JuneyBooney
03-15-2012, 23:59
No reason it should be more than $150

I agree.

treeline
03-15-2012, 23:59
1) How many German doctors have you used as a patient?
2) How many German doctors have you worked with?
3) How many German doctors do you know?


1) Don't know, more than a few. I lived there in the late 90s and now travel there every 6-8 weeks for work. I've seen GPs for various stuff and seen doctors privately for a second opinion on my Crohns. Two hospital stays, once in the 90s and one last year, both Crohns related.
2) Haven't worked with any
3) 3, I think.

If you thought I was wrong, you could have explained why instead of taking it as some kind of challenge.

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:01
Doctor's office, urgent care, or emergency department?

I was at the er. The urgent care near me only charges 80.00 if you pay them yourself if it is just something minor. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Too bad I didn't know it til later. :crying:

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:03
Only way to effectively reduce medical costs in this country would be to eliminate medicare

I think requiring doctors to live in normal sized homes like they used to do would be good. Everyone wants to "live large" now. My "ole Jewish Doc" lived in a modest home that doubled as his office. Now they want Bentleys and Rolex watches right out of med school. :whistling:

GVFlyer
03-16-2012, 00:04
Why would it need to be a post-graduate degree? In many countries, Germany included, the pre-med courses aren't generally seen as enough to earn a first degree. Medical degrees are a medicine major right from the start. Anyone who is a qualified doctor in Germany (or France, or the UK) should be of roughly the same standard as a doctor in the US.

You might laugh at this but I suspect you've fallen for the thinking that because something's different it must be worse. People choose to travel to Germany (and France, and the UK) for care because they have as high a standard of clinical skill as the US. The real failings of the socialized systems is usually waiting lists and non-clinical stuff like shabby buildings, but the actual clinical care is first rate.

By any standard medical outcomes in the U.S are superior to those anywhere on the planet. It's not the quality of healthcare in America that suffers - it's the cost. The etiology of the inflated costs is multifaceted - a fee for service, third party payer system and an ungoverned group of suppliers are central players in this drama with government inefficiencies in Medicare/Medicaid serving as a cost multiplier.

Subjectively, when I flew for the Omani Royal family we would overfly all the European countries with socialized healthcare systems to land at the Mayo clinic in Rochester, Minnesota for their care. Objectively, last year the Canadian government budgeted $9 billion dollars for U.S. healthcare. Famously, Labrador Premier Danny Williams came to America for heart surgery (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/02/danny-williams-canadian-o_n_446481.html).

I recently had a shoulder repair by a sports orthopedist using technology only available in our country. When I lived in Germany, my friends who could afford private healthcare bought it. Next door in France, with it's much touted socialized healthcare system, 90% of citizens buy private healthcare insurance. That should be instructive.

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:06
It depends on what the problem actually was, because I think there was a bigger issue than a "stuck" CL.

If it was only a contact lens that he couldnt remove himself, then $600 is ridiculous. However, he should not have went to the ER for that either. A private practice would remove a lens for <$100 easy.....but again, i think this was more complicated than the OP thinks.

No, it was not complicated at all. They just overcharge people and thievery is rampant. I just got the bill today. Wait until I give them a call. :faint:I have gotten sitches for 350.00. If it had been the day time I would have never gone to the er.

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:09
There is no such thing.

Can you give me an example?

If I have a product that you want to purchase, who should set the price?

I don't agree with "free market" theory. People are inherently dishonest so some control must be in place. :whistling:

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:14
So they would have just done it for free because they're nice? Paid for it out of their own pockets?

In law school they talk about "reasonable person" :rofl:In medical school they must talk about "shafting person". Free would have been good or actual cost but not 600.00 for using a little rubber grip and removing a stuck contact lens? :shocked:

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:15
But you only make minimum wage, which means you aren't paying much in taxes.

Yet you want all the medical care.

So what you're really saying is that you want someone else to pay for your medical care.

As rich as America truly is we should have free care but that is not what Obama wanted. :whistling::upeyes:

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 00:22
The poor deserve to die. That's the consensus, if you disagree you're a socialist commie red pig! Why should it be affordable. It doesn't have to be. Instead of thinking of solutions just come up with the same rhetoric thread after thread. Why should our government get anything done, let's decide who's more right first the Republicans or the Democrats. If you disagree you must be a liberal or a commie!

No, all politicians are crooks. The charges are reasonable if they do something. I had a $15000.00 dollar plastic surgery done for 2k total by an honest doctor because he said five grand on insurance was too high and he did it for cash. America has really changed in the past twenty years.

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 00:23
No more than 200.00 at most. It was a night and they were not busy at all. Probably even less than that if you look at it realistically. But 200.00 would be ok even though a doc at his office would charge 60.00

You do realize that you didnt pay $600 dollars for a doctor to just take out the lense. You payed $600 dollars to have a system that provided a doctor that performed what you needed at the exact moment you needed it.


They are not the same thing.

nursetim
03-16-2012, 00:26
I would, to a point, agree with this. Not having an undergrad would not change the kind of doctor many doctors in the US would be. However, with some specialties, hard science/engineering undergrads simply make for a better doctor.

The other side of that is an undergrad does produce an important part of the vetting process. The 22 year old with a 3.85 and a degree in Physics is a pretty good candidate. Whereas the 19 year old with a handful of science classes...a lot more hit or miss.

Isn't that what the MCAT is for?

AirCav
03-16-2012, 00:32
I think requiring doctors to live in normal sized homes like they used to do would be good. Everyone wants to "live large" now. My "ole Jewish Doc" lived in a modest home that doubled as his office. Now they want Bentleys and Rolex watches right out of med school. :whistling:

No, it was not complicated at all. They just overcharge people and thievery is rampant. I just got the bill today. Wait until I give them a call. :faint:I have gotten sitches for 350.00. If it had been the day time I would have never gone to the er.

I don't agree with "free market" theory. People are inherently dishonest so some control must be in place. :whistling:

In law school they talk about "reasonable person" :rofl:In medical school they must talk about "shafting person". Free would have been good or actual cost but not 600.00 for using a little rubber grip and removing a stuck contact lens? :shocked:

No, all politicians are crooks. The charges are reasonable if they do something. I had a $15000.00 dollar plastic surgery done for 2k total by an honest doctor because he said five grand on insurance was too high and he did it for cash. America has really changed in the past twenty years.Wow.

What size home should you be required to live in and who gets to decide? Me?




.

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 00:37
Isn't that what the MCAT is for?

MCAT shows how well a person can do on a standardized test. It doesnt show how well a person can do over a long period of time while dealing with real life.

Of course an undergrad is not the best indicator of that either but it is AN indicator of that. Of course like most schools, Medical Schools do look at students in a global sense.

Yeah, MCAT and the metrics of your undergrad mean the most but when it comes time to start picking people for medical school (after the noncompetitive candidates have been cut) You end up with a pile of high scores and impressive undergrad candidates...and they cant let them all in.

I am watching lady Rabbi look through med school apps right now. (as in, she is on the couch next to me looking though a pile of apps) There comes a point were what is left is nothing but highly qualified people (again, high scores and good undergrad metrics) so in some ways they have to look at what these people have done and most of that was done in undergrad.

treeline
03-16-2012, 00:52
By any standard medical outcomes in the U.S are superior to those anywhere on the planet. It's not the quality of healthcare in America that suffers - it's the cost.

Subjectively, when I flew for the Omani Royal family we would overfly all the European countries with socialized healthcare systems to land at the Mayo clinic


You're right that statistics for US outcomes are the best, or at least better than the socialized countries. However, that does not mean the compatence of the doctors is better. It's the lack of waiting, the aftercare and so on. Waiting lists don't usually count as a clinical care issue but it does affect outcome.

Your client might have chosen the Mayo clinic but some others might pick a British practitioner. I know they do because UK papers are always complaining about some Islamic 'leader' or third world dicators coming for surgery. there a few hospitals, like St Barts childrens or Christies (oncology), that are world leaders and part of the NHS. The point I'm trying to make is that Europe has plenty of world class doctors. Any failing in care can be blamed on the payment system...


I recently had a shoulder repair by a sports orthopedist using technology only available in our country. When I lived in Germany, my friends who could afford private healthcare bought it. Next door in France, with it's much touted socialized healthcare system, 90% of citizens buy private healthcare insurance. That should be instructive.

Well, sort of. In Germany most people pay for better insurance fund than the state one. If you can't afford any, the state steps in and pays into a basic fund. It's not like Britain where you pay taxes for the NHS even if you also pay for private health insurance. I've had fantastic results from NHS doctors and can't fault the level of care. However, I recognize that the payment model is unworkable and if they don't create a better option the NHS will get worse and worse.

el_jewapo
03-16-2012, 01:15
I listened to a drug commercial today, they spent longer talking about the possible side effects than they did talking about what it fixed. I was thinking that's what's wrong with medicine in America.

But yeah, they're probably expensive as hell too.

Slug71
03-16-2012, 01:33
I listened to a drug commercial today, they spent longer talking about the possible side effects than they did talking about what it fixed. I was thinking that's what's wrong with medicine in America.

But yeah, they're probably expensive as hell too.

Exactly why they should be banned....

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 01:36
Exactly why they should be banned....

Considering that government is the #1 factor in the cost of medicine, you think the answer, in part, is more government...got it.

Slug71
03-16-2012, 01:37
Considering that government is the #1 factor in the cost of medicine, you think the answer, in part, is more government...got it.

Wrong

Doctors get paid to do a job. Let them decide what is good for the patient and not the patient tell the doc what they think is good for them...


These commercials wouldnt make air in most other countries.

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 01:40
Wrong

So do you think the fact that government is the number 1 problem with the cost of medicine is wrong or do you think someone other than government can ban the ads?

Or do you really just want to keep telling us how you feel, no matter what the facts are.

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 01:42
Wrong

Doctors get paid to do a job. Let them decide what is good for the patient and not the patient tell the doc what they think is good for them...


These commercials wouldnt make air in most other countries.

Ah, I see, you added more that doesnt have anything to do with what I said.

Stay on message.

If you want the ads banned then no matter how you feel, your answer is "more government"

....btw, in your world, the doc has all the power....except for how much they charge?....you really have not thought this through very much.

AA#5
03-16-2012, 01:46
What???

All im saying is, why cant medical care be AFFORDABLE!!!

I have full health and dental insurance thanks to my employee thank you.

Whenever someone has a medical professional in their family, you can always expect to hear nonsense in a lame attempt to justify medical rip-offs:

1. "So you want it for free."

2. "Would you rather pay an auto mechanic to take out your appendix."

3. "How much is your health worth?"

4. "Are you a doctor?" (one of my favorites)

Slug71
03-16-2012, 01:48
Wow.

What size home should you be required to live in and who gets to decide? Me?

.

I love how this is always brought up.

What happened to ever working for your money instead of becoming a millionaire overnight. Everyone wants this hollywood lifestyle now and will screw the next person over to get it. God forbid everything be a little more affordable to those that earn a bit less. Yeh maybe the Ferrari will have to wait a year but why when you can have it now right?

Who cares that about goods and services being a little more affordable for our kids/grand kids right? I mean eff it, they are already stuck with the mess of SS and Medicare....
Pile it on...... :upeyes::upeyes:

AA#5
03-16-2012, 01:49
I listened to a drug commercial today, they spent longer talking about the possible side effects than they did talking about what it fixed. I was thinking that's what's wrong with medicine in America.

But yeah, they're probably expensive as hell too.

They have to. That way, later, when your life is destroyed by the drug your doctor so enthusiastically pushed, they'll say, "Well, you knew the risks........"

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 01:50
You do realize that you didnt pay $600 dollars for a doctor to just take out the lense. You payed $600 dollars to have a system that provided a doctor that performed what you needed at the exact moment you needed it.


They are not the same thing.

It is still way overpriced for what they did. What if a mechanic was open and stayed open for ten minutes but charged five hundred dollars for a fifty dollar tire. The media would be all over them. I understand what you are saying but you do admit that for something so simple it is way overpriced.

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 01:52
I love how this is always brought up.

What happened to ever working for your money instead of becoming a millionaire overnight. Everyone wants this hollywood lifestyle now and will screw the next person over to get it. God forbid everything be a little more affordable to those that earn a bit less. Yeh maybe the Ferrari will have to wait a year but why when you can have it now right?

Who cares that about goods and services being a little more affordable for our kids/grand kids right? I mean eff it, they are already stuck with the mess of SS and Medicare....
Pile it on...... :upeyes::upeyes:

You are right and people want Rolls Royce cars at 18 years of age. That is why the prices are so high. The old American dream of a little house with a picket fence is not normal now..it is a 18 bedroom mansion with an indoor pool. :supergrin:

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 01:52
I love how this is always brought up.

What happened to ever working for your money instead of becoming a millionaire overnight. Everyone wants this hollywood lifestyle now and will screw the next person over to get it. God forbid everything be a little more affordable to those that earn a bit less. Yeh maybe the Ferrari will have to wait a year but why when you can have it now right?

Who cares that about goods and services being a little more affordable for our kids/grand kids right? I mean eff it, they are already stuck with the mess of SS and Medicare....
Pile it on...... :upeyes::upeyes:


If you are making (one) of your stands on "doctors becomes millionaires overnight".....your really dont have a clue.

You will find few people who work more hours over a lifetime than many doctors and most of them, while earning good livings are not "rich."

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 01:54
Considering that government is the #1 factor in the cost of medicine, you think the answer, in part, is more government...got it.

Government is corrupt and local government is even worse than the Feds from what I have seen. But the locals can't control the prices like the Feds. I think you are spot on in your assessment.

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 01:55
It is still way overpriced for what they did. What if a mechanic was open and stayed open for ten minutes but charged five hundred dollars for a fifty dollar tire. The media would be all over them. I understand what you are saying but you do admit that for something so simple it is way overpriced.

No, I admit no such thing.

If you want a better deal, look for one.

You should not dictate the price anyone else charges as long as you have a choice and you did and continue to have a choice.

Slug71
03-16-2012, 01:56
Ah, I see, you added more that doesnt have anything to do with what I said.

Stay on message.

If you want the ads banned then no matter how you feel, your answer is "more government"

....btw, in your world, the doc has all the power....except for how much they charge?....you really have not thought this through very much.

Well i guess it is then.

I dont have a problem with how much the charge. I have a problem with the system.

Rabbi
03-16-2012, 01:59
Well i guess it is then.

I dont have a problem with how much the charge. I have a problem with the system.

If you actually mean that, now you can actually get somewhere.

The system is fairly FUBAR. It is functional...but that isnt saying much.

Slug71
03-16-2012, 02:11
If you actually mean that, now you can actually get somewhere.

The system is fairly FUBAR. It is functional...but that isnt saying much.

Thats exactly what im saying.

MediaMan
03-16-2012, 04:19
"Minor stroke" - 7 doctors and their assistants and followups, 5 days in ICU, carotid artery surgery, just over $100k. $5k out of pocket, the rest allegedly covered by insurance. We'll see...bills still coming in. All from one 911 "I've fallen and can't get up" call.

I think I got my pocket picked...

eracer
03-16-2012, 05:26
Insurance companies practicing medicine are the biggest problem.

JMS
03-16-2012, 06:10
Whenever someone has a medical professional in their family, you can always expect to hear nonsense in a lame attempt to justify medical rip-offs:

1. "So you want it for free."

2. "Would you rather pay an auto mechanic to take out your appendix."

3. "How much is your health worth?"

4. "Are you a doctor?" (one of my favorites)

You do actually make a great point, the 3 posters, Certifiedfunds, Rabbi and DanaT all have skin in the game either directly or through their significant others in the medical field which makes their opinions biased. In journalism they'd call that a conflict of interest, here they call it an 'unbiased opinion based on facts.' :rofl:

douggmc
03-16-2012, 06:21
Only way to effectively reduce medical costs in this country would be to eliminate medicare

Or put everyone on it (ala single payer).

OctoberRust
03-16-2012, 06:29
Only way to effectively reduce medical costs in this country would be to eliminate medicare


Good post, and medicaid.

And insurance that cover things that are low in cost as it is, so the consumer has to SHOP, as opposed to not caring how expensive something is when it really shouldn't be.

I give the grocery store analogy, where if we had "grocery insurance" not many, if any consumers would shop with price in their mind. They'd pick whatever, and in most cases buy things they don't really need, because afterall insurance is footing the bill, and they don't realize their monthly rate won't be adjusted because of such. Ultimately this leads to higher artificial prices not caused by true supply/demand.

Anyways, many people in this country are mislead into thinking more gov't in today's medicine would be great, when in reality the more gov't we inject into the industry day by day just restrains it, everything from price to innovation.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 06:56
Or put everyone on it (ala single payer).

Nope. Wrong.

Unless you plan to reduce costs by having the government ration (deny) care.

Care needs to be rationed. That's a given with any resource. You folks advocate for the government doing it, which means it will be done along political lines = BAD.

Consumers need to ration it themselves = the market. This will ensure the best use of resources.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 07:00
Good post, and medicaid.

And insurance that cover things that are low in cost as it is, so the consumer has to SHOP, as opposed to not caring how expensive something is when it really shouldn't be.

I give the grocery store analogy, where if we had "grocery insurance" not many, if any consumers would shop with price in their mind. They'd pick whatever, and in most cases buy things they don't really need, because afterall insurance is footing the bill, and they don't realize their monthly rate won't be adjusted because of such. Ultimately this leads to higher artificial prices not caused by true supply/demand.

Anyways, many people in this country are mislead into thinking more gov't in today's medicine would be great, when in reality the more gov't we inject into the industry day by day just restrains it, everything from price to innovation.

Yeah, I've used the gasoline analogy. Same thing.

THE real answer is the elimination of medicare, medicaid and what we now call "Insurance" which is actually just prepaid medical financing. We need to return to true indemnity coverage to protect against catastrophic loss, perhaps term policies like life insurance.

Now, I don't advocate the government telling people they can't have a certain type of insurance, I'm just saying it needs to change.

Young people aren't the drivers, obviously. Older folks consume the healthcare resources and are the most protected from the cost of their care. The result is inflation.

DanaT
03-16-2012, 07:31
Wrong

Doctors get paid to do a job. Let them decide what is good for the patient and not the patient tell the doc what they think is good for them...


These commercials wouldnt make air in most other countries.

You do realize that Docs aren't all that interested in TV commercials? You do realize that the Drug Reps show up with nice suits (actually more often late 20s women that look nice and well dressed)? You do realize that EVERY company knows this? If may ONE company showed up to impress the doc, it would work but when they ALL do it, it doesn't have the same effect. It is "expected".

Now, go ask you Doc for a script. Look on the script and see if the "as written" box is checked. If it is not checked (which most of the time it isn't) the pharmacist (and insurance) are free to substitue a generic drug or cheaper "equivalent" drug.

How well is that commerical working when patients don't even know the difference in the script they look at?

-Dana

DanaT
03-16-2012, 07:33
You do actually make a great point, the 3 posters, Certifiedfunds, Rabbi and DanaT all have skin in the game either directly or through their significant others in the medical field which makes their opinions biased. In journalism they'd call that a conflict of interest, here they call it an 'unbiased opinion based on facts.' :rofl:

You mean, like a Jewish person (I actually don't like the short version) arguing that the USA should defend Israel?

-Dana

DanaT
03-16-2012, 07:40
I love how this is always brought up.

What happened to ever working for your money instead of becoming a millionaire overnight. Everyone wants this hollywood lifestyle now and will screw the next person over to get it. God forbid everything be a little more affordable to those that earn a bit less. Yeh maybe the Ferrari will have to wait a year but why when you can have it now right?

Who cares that about goods and services being a little more affordable for our kids/grand kids right? I mean eff it, they are already stuck with the mess of SS and Medicare....
Pile it on...... :upeyes::upeyes:

I have asked you if you will come over to my house and do yard work for what I decide I want done and what I want to pay.

I could use some stuff done a little more affordable.

It is quite funny that you don't see it. With your statement "Everyone wants this hollywood lifestyle now and will screw the next person over to get it." you are showing that YOU want something from someone else and foillow the idea of "why wait when you can have it now right" with regards to a service YOU want.

See you think that someone else should provide YOU with a good or service for what YOU want to pay, but I bet you would be upset if I came to your place of business and said the good/service you provide should be "more affordable" and you can take a cut to your salary so that you are "working for your money instead of becoming a millionaire overnight."



-Dana

JMS
03-16-2012, 08:15
You mean, like a Jewish person (I actually don't like the short version) arguing that the USA should defend Israel?

-Dana

Sieg Heil.

ordersman
03-16-2012, 08:30
You are right and people want Rolls Royce cars at 18 years of age. That is why the prices are so high.

Yes this is exactly why Rolls Royces cost so much ....



I believe this thread is turning into a good example of "class warfare".

douggmc
03-16-2012, 08:33
Nope. Wrong.

Unless you plan to reduce costs by having the government ration (deny) care.

Care needs to be rationed. That's a given with any resource. You folks advocate for the government doing it, which means it will be done along political lines = BAD.

Consumers need to ration it themselves = the market. This will ensure the best use of resources.

Nope. Wrong.


A) You are making economic arguments, when it isn't about economics. It is about right and wrong.

B) To play along however, yes ... By rationing you mean targeting care in the right place/person at the right time (i.e. a macro "triage" as determined by medical professionals if you will) it will be necessary. I see nothing wrong with it. Financial means should play no part in healthcare delivery.

ordersman
03-16-2012, 08:34
Nope. Wrong.


A) You are making economic arguments, when it isn't about economics. It is about right and wrong.

B) To play along however, yes ... By rationing you mean targeting care in the right place/person at the right time (i.e. a macro "triage" as determined by medical professionals if you will) it will be necessary. I see nothing wrong with it. Financial means should play no part in healthcare delivery.

Wrong .... it's always about economics


ETA - It is about "right and wrong" and I do think it is "wrong" to force someone to pay for someone else, no matter what we are talking about.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 08:37
I have asked you if you will come over to my house and do yard work for what I decide I want done and what I want to pay.

I could use some stuff done a little more affordable.

It is quite funny that you don't see it. With your statement "Everyone wants this hollywood lifestyle now and will screw the next person over to get it." you are showing that YOU want something from someone else and foillow the idea of "why wait when you can have it now right" with regards to a service YOU want.

See you think that someone else should provide YOU with a good or service for what YOU want to pay, but I bet you would be upset if I came to your place of business and said the good/service you provide should be "more affordable" and you can take a cut to your salary so that you are "working for your money instead of becoming a millionaire overnight."



-Dana

Health care ain't yard work.

Atlas
03-16-2012, 08:37
..
Care needs to be rationed. That's a given with any resource. You folks advocate for the government doing it, which means it will be done along political lines = BAD.

Consumers need to ration it themselves = the market. This will ensure the best use of resources.

Case in point...
I posted recently about my girlfriend who administers ultrasound diagnostics. Her area of specialty is the vascular system, but she does occasionally administer pre-natal exams as well.

At least once per week (in the smallish northern Virginia city where she lives) a woman on "public assistance" will be in demanding that the sonographer exam her and prove her to be pregnant.
Often they will go so far as to admit that they are already receiving "benefits" for two or three children and need to have another child to increase their entitlement.
In such cases if they are determined to not be pregnant they will become indignant and demand to be examined again.

The demand for a valuable medical service is being artificially inflated and the cost therefore increased for everyone.

This is only one of an endless plethora examples of how government involvement in the medical profession drives up costs.

TheBlazer
03-16-2012, 08:38
How much should it cost to have an errant contact lens removed? The correct answer, based on my personal experience, is $84.63.

How did I arrive at this figure? In 1975, I went with a group of friends to Ft. Lauderdale for spring break. As the result of a serious party with a bunch of sorority girls who were staying at the same hotel, I woke up the next morning with a painful, swollen eye. Beside my bed on the table was a glass of water with one contact lens floating in it. (These were the days of hard contact lenses.)

I figured out that I only took one lens out before passing out. A friend drove me to the emergency room at the hospital. They had to call my parents before they treated me since I was under 21. My mother's hysterical reaction when first getting the call from the hospital is a whole story in itself.

Anyway, the total cost, including numbing eye drops, removal of the lens, and a small bottle of cleaning eye drops to take with me, was $20.00. As I recall there were two nurses and an opthamologist that attended me.

$20.00 in 1975, according to usinflationcalculator.com, is $84.63 today. An annual rate of inflation of 323.2%.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 08:38
Wrong .... it's always about economics


ETA - It is about "right and wrong" and I do think it is "wrong" to force someone to pay for someone else, no matter what we are talking about.

Logic fail. You pay for "everyone" else with every tax dollar you currently pay ... federal, state, and local. There are plenty of things my tax dollar pays for I don't particularly like. That is life in a first world country.

Atlas
03-16-2012, 08:40
Nope. Wrong.


A) You are making economic arguments, when it isn't about economics. It is about right and wrong.

B) To play along however, yes ... By rationing you mean targeting care in the right place/person at the right time (i.e. a macro "triage" as determined by medical professionals if you will) it will be necessary. I see nothing wrong with it. Financial means should play no part in healthcare delivery.

Wow. :faint:

"Right and wrong" by which standard?
Your standard?
"Right" exactly how?

ordersman
03-16-2012, 08:42
Logic fail. You pay for "everyone" else with every tax dollar you currently pay ... federal, state, and local. There are plenty of things my tax dollar pays for I don't particularly like. That is life in a first world country.

Exactly .... stop taking my tax dollars and giving it to others in the form of Medicaid, food stamps, housing, etc, etc ....


ETA - actualy stop using an "income tax" all together

douggmc
03-16-2012, 08:46
Wow. :faint:

"Right and wrong" by which standard?
Your standard?
"Right" exactly how?

It is literally undefinable in a macro sense ... you know it! :)

What are you expecting as a response? A list of "right and wrong".

When I say "right and wrong", I mean "wrong" to deny/limit health care based on the patient's financial capability (and "right" vice versa).

Life isn't absolutes.

mgs
03-16-2012, 08:47
Emergency Room = Peroxide, Liquid Bandage & BandAid for my wife' lacerated thumb (cutting onions at a fundraiser for Marching Band)....$795! WalMart = $10. That's what's wrong with Healthcare in the US. Because it happened at the school, she had to go to the ER but the school insurace does not cover volunteers.....my insurance and I paid the $100 deductible, Mike.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 08:48
Exactly .... stop taking my tax dollars and giving it to others in the form of Medicaid, food stamps, housing, etc, etc ....


ETA - actualy stop using an "income tax" all together

What about every single other publicly provide service you enjoy? National defense, streets/roads, fire stations, police, schools, clean water, sewage, ... need I go on .... ?

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 08:54
Nope. Wrong.


A) You are making economic arguments, when it isn't about economics. It is about right and wrong.



:rofl:

Socialist logic! Love it!

You say right and wrong? I'll play along.

Is it right to force one man to pay for another man's medical care?

Socialist: Yes

Is it right to deprive one man of medical care he wants and can afford because another man cannot?

Socialist: Yes

Is it right to allow politicians to decide who gets what care?

Socialist: Yes

Is it right to legally impose your value set on me under the threat of fine or imprisonment?

Socialist: Yes

B) To play along however, yes ... By rationing you mean targeting care in the right place/person at the right time (i.e. a macro "triage" as determined by medical professionals if you will) it will be necessary. I see nothing wrong with it.

Yes! That would be rationing! Politicians and bureaucrats deciding who gets what care = rationing.

Why can't you let me and my doctor decide? I'm paying for it.

Financial means should play no part in healthcare delivery.

Economics and finance MUST and always WILL play a part. Even under your scenario, they play a huge part. Otherwise, you wouldn't need to ration, would you? We could just give everything to everyone.

Don't be willfully ignorant and please keep your nose out of my wallet and out of my healthcare. I promise to do the same.

ordersman
03-16-2012, 08:55
What about every single other publicly provide service you enjoy? National defense, streets/roads, fire stations, police, schools, clean water, sewage, ... need I go on .... ?

You can go on as long as you like. But don't be dumb about it we are talking about health care on a national level not infrastructure. You are going to try to compair my taxes going to pay for the roads that I can and do use to my taxes going to pay for some guys ER visit? Get rid of the "income tax" is the only true way to have any kind of control over where your tax dollars go.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 08:55
What about every single other publicly provide service you enjoy? National defense, streets/roads, fire stations, police, schools, clean water, sewage, ... need I go on .... ?

Oh, no. Don't do that.

Don't go blurring the lines between Constitutionally-authorized powers, Constitutionally-mandated responsibilities, local government and community functions.

Don't do that. It only discredits you more.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 08:56
Emergency Room = Peroxide, Liquid Bandage & BandAid for my wife' lacerated thumb (cutting onions at a fundraiser for Marching Band)....$795! WalMart = $10. That's what's wrong with Healthcare in the US. Because it happened at the school, she had to go to the ER but the school insurace does not cover volunteers.....my insurance and I paid the $100 deductible, Mike.

The school security guard arrested her and took her to the ER?

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 08:58
It is literally undefinable in a macro sense ... you know it! :)

What are you expecting as a response? A list of "right and wrong".

When I say "right and wrong", I mean "wrong" to deny/limit health care based on the patient's financial capability (and "right" vice versa).

Life isn't absolutes.

Right and wrong is undefinable according to you.

Yet you feel it should be legislated.

:faint:

DanaT
03-16-2012, 09:01
Health care ain't yard work.

What is the difference? It is a service that is performed by someone else that you want them to do for you.

Please explain the difference of being able to demand a price Person X (who spent at least 8 years in school and then a residency) works for and being able to demand a price that Person Y works for.

-Dana

mgs
03-16-2012, 09:06
The school security guard arrested her and took her to the ER?

When your a school employee (wife)....it's their rules and I was at work...not my call. We had a school district truck hit our car and guess what?....they are exempt and not liable...my insurance made the repair. Welcome to the new USA, Mike.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 09:08
When your a school employee....it's their rules, Mike.

I thought she was a volunteer and that's why the insurance wouldn't cover her?

Emergency Room = Peroxide, Liquid Bandage & BandAid for my wife' lacerated thumb (cutting onions at a fundraiser for Marching Band)....$795! WalMart = $10. That's what's wrong with Healthcare in the US. Because it happened at the school, she had to go to the ER but the school insurace does not cover volunteers.....my insurance and I paid the $100 deductible, Mike.


employee or volunteer?

What's really interesting here is you actually illustrated the issue very well: Your wife received $800 of healthcare for $100.

Actually, she probably received $10 worth of healthcare that cost $800 because you only had to pay $100. If you had to pay the full $800 (and everyone else also) it would cost closer to $10.

Jbar4Ranch
03-16-2012, 09:12
I had my gallbladder removed last year, a pretty simple operation today, and folks routinely go home the same day - I woke up in a recovery room about 50 minutes later, so maybe 40 minutes in the OR, and the final bill was ~$12,000. Yeah, it's a lot of money, but I would have botched it for sure had I tried to do it myself using the "Laparoscopy for Dummies" manual.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 09:12
What is the difference? It is a service that is performed by someone else that you want them to do for you.

Please explain the difference of being able to demand a price Person X (who spent at least 8 years in school and then a residency) works for and being able to demand a price that Person Y works for.

-Dana

Its the socialists deciding. They're smarter than everyone else. Dumb biomedical engineers shouldn't ask questions.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 09:13
I had my gallbladder removed last year, a pretty simple operation today, and folks routinely go home the same day - I woke up in a recovery room about 50 minutes later, so maybe 40 minutes in the OR, and the final bill was ~$12,000. Yeah, it's a lot of money, but I would have botched it for sure had I tried to do it myself using the "Laparoscopy for Dummies" manual.

Bill was $12,000.

What did the insurance actually pay?

What providers and facilities charge has zero correlation to what they actually get paid.

mgs
03-16-2012, 09:15
I thought she was a volunteer and that's why the insurance wouldn't cover her?




employee or volunteer?

What's really interesting here is you actually illustrated the issue very well: Your wife received $800 of healthcare for $100.

Actually, she probably received $10 worth of healthcare that cost $800 because you only had to pay $100. If you had to pay the full $800 (and everyone else also) it would cost closer to $10.

Not working that day....volunteering. I pay $13,000 a year for insurance so others get free health care. That's the way it works, Mike.

DanaT
03-16-2012, 09:16
Lets actually go through this and try to explain to the uneducated what is wrong.

This is BASIC economics.

There are supply and demand curves (in this instance I have made them linear for simplicity). How this works (I will be referencing the graph below).

There is a quantity of product that you are able to find sellers in a given market segment that will sell for. This is the RED LINE. At $0 they are willing to supply 0 units. At $100 per unit, they are willing to supply 100 units. Now you have the buyers side (Blue line). At $0 they want (are willing to buy) 100 units. At $100 they want 0 zero units. Where both are satisfied to the maximum extent that the market will allow is where the two lines cross. In this case it is at 50/50. That means the buyer will supply 50 unit at $50 each and the consumer will buy 50 units at $50 each.

What insurance does, is it artificially manipulates these two curves. Since the buyers have insurance, and only pay $20 per unit they want 80 units. The suppliers however will not supply 80 units at $20 each. So insurance kicks in and covers the difference between the supply and demand. Now that 80 units are demanded, the price goes up to $80.
So what has happened, is what was a $50 per unit item for 50 people (or $2500 total), becomes an $80 unit for 80 people (or $6400 total). Do you see how $3900 was just added in total cost by manipulating supply and demand? That $3900 is covered under “insurance” )which is just moving money around between people.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/ddt951t/supplydeman.jpg

The way to reduce medical costs is direct pay.

Look at direct medical devices and drugs. When you go to you favorite store to buy Asprin, you can buy Bayer or a generic. Consumers decide if they want to pay the extra money for one over the other. If you go and buy a hearing aid (which is normally not covered under insurance) you can go from the $39 TV special to the $5000 full digital, beam-forming, noise cancelling devices. The $5000 units are profitable, but not the biggest sellers. If you got to chose any set you wanted for a $100 co-pay, no-one would take a $500 set of hearing aids; everyone would chose the $5000 set.

Prices for medical devices are no set by supply and demand. They are set by what is reimbursed. If a device cannot be sold for a decent margin on the reimbursed price, the companies don’t make it (or negotiate a new reimbursed price).

OF course it is easier to scream how you are getting ripped off instead of seeing how artificial demand increases price.

-Dana

Atlas
03-16-2012, 09:20
..Life isn't absolutes.

Really?
You believe this?

No absolutes?
What if the pharmaceutical companies applied that attitude to development and testing of new drugs?

What if the manufacturer of medical diagnostic or surgical equipment applied the attitude of "there are no absolutes" to their R&D?


What if you need life-saving medical treatment and the doctor's attitude is "there are no absolutes here... I can administer whatever treatment I prefer based on nothing more than my feelings. In fact, I don't feel like attending to this now, the weather is great for golf, so I'll take care of this guy tomorrow".


I would suggest that you are quite wrong here... life is made of absolutes.
If you are really paying attention you can see that everywhere you look, every moment of the day there are absolutes.
You seem to be saying that you have a right, an absolute right to medical treatment, on your terms.


Respectfully I gotta ask... are you perhaps very young?
Like maybe 19 or 20?

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:27
Socialism ... popular refrain. Laughable.

You folks like to live in some sort of fantasy ideologue world. Everything is black and white. It is the same small, yet vocal group ironically ... that likes to pontificate in absolutes and Constitutional theory as if it were 1787. Year after year.

Atlas
03-16-2012, 09:30
No absolutes...
Try to administer full anesthesia to a patient with no absolute principals of anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Get back to us on the outcome, OK?

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:34
No absolutes...
Try to administer full anesthesia to a patient with no absolute principals of anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Get back to us on the outcome, OK?

Please. There is nothing to get back to you. Stop with the pedantic cases. Like I said before ... we are talking macro-level. Do you really not understand what I meant by using that phrase? If so, forget the word. It is largely irrelevant.

Atlas
03-16-2012, 09:37
Please. There is nothing to get back to you. Stop with the pedantic cases. Like I said before ... we are talking macro-level. Do you really not understand what I meant by using that phrase? If so, forget the word. It is largely irrelevant.

No, I do not understand what you mean.
I suspect however that you really do not have a precise meaning, that your use of that phrase is only an attempt to make your case by obfuscation.

Am I wrong?
If so please explain.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:38
Right and wrong is undefinable according to you.

Yet you feel it should be legislated.

:faint:

I defined it at the level that I meant ... and you dang well know it. Read it again.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:39
Its the socialists deciding. They're smarter than everyone else. Dumb biomedical engineers shouldn't ask questions.

There are plenty of highly educated and intelligent people that can't get over the strict fantasy ideologies that have infected this country over last decade or so.

Atlas
03-16-2012, 09:40
Socialism ... popular refrain. Laughable.

You folks like to live in some sort of fantasy ideologue world. Everything is black and white. It is the same small, yet vocal group ironically ... that likes to pontificate in absolutes and Constitutional theory as if it were 1787. Year after year.

Year after year, because always year after year there are people who will say "I don't have what you have, and I feel that I deserve anything you have, so I want to use government to take it from you (by force) and give to me".

Year after year...

Peace Warrior
03-16-2012, 09:40
We can all agree the medical system is broken, regardless of which side you stand on. The question that I haven't heard answered is how do we fix it.

Reminds me of Congress, "fix the budget", ok we will once we decide which side is right and which is wrong. In the mean time we're all left pissing in the wind.
I dont know if it can be fixed at this point. I mean what with romney care being co-opted as barry soetoro care (aka: obamacare thanks to our media); however, a great change in course towards fixing it would be to get the insurance companies out of policy mandating. For instance, it was the insurance companies that wrote romney-care for Mass, and then they had romney take the credit for it. As well, with a few socialist modifications due to centralized government streamlining it towards a global plan, it was again the insurance companies that wrote obama-care.

If you get the insurance companies OUT OF WRITING POLICY (aka: HUGE conflict of interest!) and simply providing the insurance to customers, then you begin to bring in competition. In the mean time, a stop gap measure would be to institute a "deductible" for doctor office visits. It works in keeping cost lower for other insurance companies and customers, and it would work for health care.

I'm only 50 and I can remember not even calling an insurance company for going to the doctor. Back then you paid like $25 for the visit and you simply paid cash. If you didn't have $25, you told your doctor ahead of time paid it off after the next payday or two. Today, my "primary doctor" has a $71 cash fee when services are rendered. This price includes a basic check-up and most often addresses the reason for impromptu visits. It works great for both of us. My doctor is NOT on an insurance company's pay-roll.

My previous doctor's office fee for a patient's initial visit is $320, with follow-ups visits costing $200. The reason for this is that insurance companies refuse to pay more than 25% of the stated office visit fee, which means he makes $80 and $50 respectively; however, he is NOT allowed to lower his fee for cash paying customers due to guidelines, red-tape, and bureaucracies caused by insurance lobby groups all the way through our State capital and on up to DC.

The insurance companies write/wrote all the insurance policies including the illegal obama-care. Take them out of instituting policy and it goes back to a free-market, competitive service industry, which IMHO can only begin to be done if we stop demanding $0 co-pays to get a routine check-up.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:42
Oh, no. Don't do that.

Don't go blurring the lines between Constitutionally-authorized powers, Constitutionally-mandated responsibilities, local government and community functions.

Don't do that. It only discredits you more.

I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right? :whistling:

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:46
Insurance companies practicing medicine are the biggest problem.

+1 ... profit by anybody but medical providers is the biggest problem in health care.

douggmc
03-16-2012, 09:48
Year after year, because always year after year there are people who will say "I don't have what you have, and I feel that I deserve anything you have, so I want to use government to take it from you (by force) and give to me".

Year after year...

Daft. The sooner you drop the everything is the same concept to what is done with our tax dollars ... the sooner we can move on to a legitimate debate.

Atlas
03-16-2012, 09:52
Daft. The sooner you drop the everything is the same concept to what is done with our tax dollars ... the sooner we can move on to a legitimate debate.

Debate?
People pose questions to you based on your posts and you ignore them, only to continue telling us how you feel.


And this sentence construction..
The sooner you drop the everything is the same concept to what is done with our tax dollars ... ...

..makes no sense at all.


In any case, I'm out, gotta catch a flight.
Take care, and stay safe.

ordersman
03-16-2012, 09:53
I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right? :whistling:

I have no problem with women not being able to vote and machines do the work of slaves now without the hassle ..... but aside from that what else in the contitution would you like to make "better"?

ETA - wait are you saying that the use of our tax dollars is the same today as it was in 1787 ???

Peace Warrior
03-16-2012, 09:55
I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right? :whistling:
The Constitution primarily concerned each individual state's government rights while still creating a centralized form of government, which UNITED all the states in common with respect to trade, common reciprocity of most affairs, and protection of one another from foreign attack(s); however, the Bill of Rights had nothing to do with the new federal government's or individual States' rights, but rather had/HAS EVERYTHING to do with each individual American citizens' right to not be unfairly treated by either their own State government or the newly formed centralized government, which this centralized government entity came to be known as the united States of America.

You're purposely mixing "apples and potatoes" (e.g., your not even close!) in trying to augment your agenda. With all due respect, you either need to be more honest, or you need to study this nation's true history before making your ignorance, concerning this nation's birth as well as its Constitution and Bill of Rights, so obvious on the internet.

JuneyBooney
03-16-2012, 10:10
What is the difference? It is a service that is performed by someone else that you want them to do for you.

Please explain the difference of being able to demand a price Person X (who spent at least 8 years in school and then a residency) works for and being able to demand a price that Person Y works for.

-Dana

But if you look at "reasonable cost" then what I originally posted would show that the fees were outrageous. We are not talking about great skill being needed etc. All that was done was squirt the eye with a quart or so of saline solution and use a little rubber device to pull the lens off. Anyone's mom could have done that.

dhoomonyou
03-16-2012, 10:11
A few weeks ago my son had a MIGRAINE

E.R. of a Florida hospital, 4 hours, Exam, CT Scan, $7,635.00, was billed to insurance company. Have not gotten payment report yet.

2 Motrin and we left.

ordersman
03-16-2012, 10:12
But if you look at "reasonable cost" then what I originally posted would show that the fees were outrageous. We are not talking about great skill being needed etc. All that was done was squirt the eye with a quart or so of saline solution and use a little rubber device to pull the lens off. Anyone's mom could have done that.

The obvious answer to this is why did you not go get "someone's mom" to do it then?

ETA - sorry for the smartassness

ordersman
03-16-2012, 10:15
A few weeks ago my son had a MIGRAINE

E.R. of a Florida hospital, 4 hours, Exam, CT Scan, $7,635.00, was billed to insurance company. Have not gotten payment report yet.

2 Motrin and we left.

What is your complaint? Not being a smartass just asking.

dhoomonyou
03-16-2012, 10:21
What is your complaint? Not being a smartass just asking.

No complaint, what's the use?

just stating a FACT the price.

The system is THE SYSTEM

ordersman
03-16-2012, 10:30
No complaint, what's the use?

just stating a FACT the price.

The system is THE SYSTEM


Well then what is the point of your post?

I bought a burger for lunch the other day, waited in line 7 minutes and it cost me 4 bucks .... :dunno:

DanaT
03-16-2012, 10:31
But if you look at "reasonable cost" then what I originally posted would show that the fees were outrageous. We are not talking about great skill being needed etc. All that was done was squirt the eye with a quart or so of saline solution and use a little rubber device to pull the lens off. Anyone's mom could have done that.

Then it seems that you were abusing the ER system if you had a doctor/PA perform a procedure that did not require medical intervention.

Cost could be kept lower if people didn't see a doctor for stuff that didn't need medical intervention.

From what you say (the conatact needs to be wet and a finger dry to remove it) is pretty common knowledge to those that wear contact lenses and you could have even googled that. Why did you go to a doctor when that is something, as a contact lens wearer, should have been able to do? Why did you not listen to the instructions when you were shown how to insert/remove them? If you didn't understand, why didn't you ask questions then?

This seems like user error that is now the medical systems fault for being "too expensive."

-Dana

Peace Warrior
03-16-2012, 10:47
Well then what is the point of your post?

I bought a burger for lunch the other day, waited in line 7 minutes and it cost me 4 bucks .... :dunno:
:rofl: :rofl: :supergrin: :rofl: :rofl:

OctoberRust
03-16-2012, 10:56
Lets actually go through this and try to explain to the uneducated what is wrong.

This is BASIC economics.

There are supply and demand curves (in this instance I have made them linear for simplicity). How this works (I will be referencing the graph below).

There is a quantity of product that you are able to find sellers in a given market segment that will sell for. This is the RED LINE. At $0 they are willing to supply 0 units. At $100 per unit, they are willing to supply 100 units. Now you have the buyers side (Blue line). At $0 they want (are willing to buy) 100 units. At $100 they want 0 zero units. Where both are satisfied to the maximum extent that the market will allow is where the two lines cross. In this case it is at 50/50. That means the buyer will supply 50 unit at $50 each and the consumer will buy 50 units at $50 each.

What insurance does, is it artificially manipulates these two curves. Since the buyers have insurance, and only pay $20 per unit they want 80 units. The suppliers however will not supply 80 units at $20 each. So insurance kicks in and covers the difference between the supply and demand. Now that 80 units are demanded, the price goes up to $80.
So what has happened, is what was a $50 per unit item for 50 people (or $2500 total), becomes an $80 unit for 80 people (or $6400 total). Do you see how $3900 was just added in total cost by manipulating supply and demand? That $3900 is covered under “insurance” )which is just moving money around between people.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/ddt951t/supplydeman.jpg

The way to reduce medical costs is direct pay.

Look at direct medical devices and drugs. When you go to you favorite store to buy Asprin, you can buy Bayer or a generic. Consumers decide if they want to pay the extra money for one over the other. If you go and buy a hearing aid (which is normally not covered under insurance) you can go from the $39 TV special to the $5000 full digital, beam-forming, noise cancelling devices. The $5000 units are profitable, but not the biggest sellers. If you got to chose any set you wanted for a $100 co-pay, no-one would take a $500 set of hearing aids; everyone would chose the $5000 set.

Prices for medical devices are no set by supply and demand. They are set by what is reimbursed. If a device cannot be sold for a decent margin on the reimbursed price, the companies don’t make it (or negotiate a new reimbursed price).

OF course it is easier to scream how you are getting ripped off instead of seeing how artificial demand increases price.

-Dana


Very good posting Dana.

I can't believe how many socialists there are from viewing this thread. :puking::puking:

dhoomonyou
03-16-2012, 10:57
Well then what is the point of your post?

I bought a burger for lunch the other day, waited in line 7 minutes and it cost me 4 bucks .... :dunno:

GT used to be good before all the keyboard commandos arrived.

The post speaks for itself, draw your own conclusion.

Im done here.

IGNORE

tadbart
03-16-2012, 10:57
say i (RN) spend half an hour total with your case, from assessment, treatment, and documentation. that costs my boss $15 just in payroll, not to mention insurance, workers comp, and all the behind the scenes stuff employers pay. when you add in the equipment, supplies, ancillary staff (techs, registration, housekeeping), utilities, insurance, etc., i'd say the cost was about fair. if anything, i'd rather see the ER costs a little high, to encourage those less than critically ill to go to an urgent care. all that aside, i'm glad you got the contact unstuck.

glockdoc21
03-16-2012, 10:58
A few weeks ago my son had a MIGRAINE

E.R. of a Florida hospital, 4 hours, Exam, CT Scan, $7,635.00, was billed to insurance company. Have not gotten payment report yet.

2 Motrin and we left.

2 questions...
1. Why did you take your son to the ER for a migraine?
2. Did you try motrin at home?

The ER doctor probably assumed that since you came to the emergency room that you thought that you have an emergency and acted accordingly. I don't CT everyone's head that complains of migraine, but some people act so foolish during their exam that I do because I'm actually worried that something may be wrong. If you take your car to Jack Roush to have the oil changed, it's gonna cost more than Jiffy Lube. The ER is for the evaluation of emergencies, and sometimes "headache" can actually mean that I have a tumor/intracranial bleed/meningitis/ etc...These actually sometimes take tests and money to screen for...No emergency? Go to your regular doctor or at least TRY a motrin at home first. Complaining about the cost of emergency care in America is like complaining that it would cost a lot to have a Ferrari repaired at 3AM on a Sunday night. It's the cost of having the service available.

devildog2067
03-16-2012, 11:11
A few weeks ago my son had a MIGRAINE

E.R. of a Florida hospital, 4 hours, Exam, CT Scan, $7,635.00, was billed to insurance company. Have not gotten payment report yet.

2 Motrin and we left.

A few weeks ago my dad had a MIGRAINE

E.R. of a Chicago hospital, 4 hours, exam, CT scan (I don't know what it cost but I'm sure it was similar, several thousand dollars).

Turns out he has stage IV lung cancer that's metastasized to the brain.

If someone had done a head CT a few years ago, maybe he'd have been able to beat it.

Count your blessings.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 11:17
Lets actually go through this and try to explain to the uneducated what is wrong.

This is BASIC economics.

There are supply and demand curves (in this instance I have made them linear for simplicity). How this works (I will be referencing the graph below).

There is a quantity of product that you are able to find sellers in a given market segment that will sell for. This is the RED LINE. At $0 they are willing to supply 0 units. At $100 per unit, they are willing to supply 100 units. Now you have the buyers side (Blue line). At $0 they want (are willing to buy) 100 units. At $100 they want 0 zero units. Where both are satisfied to the maximum extent that the market will allow is where the two lines cross. In this case it is at 50/50. That means the buyer will supply 50 unit at $50 each and the consumer will buy 50 units at $50 each.

What insurance does, is it artificially manipulates these two curves. Since the buyers have insurance, and only pay $20 per unit they want 80 units. The suppliers however will not supply 80 units at $20 each. So insurance kicks in and covers the difference between the supply and demand. Now that 80 units are demanded, the price goes up to $80.
So what has happened, is what was a $50 per unit item for 50 people (or $2500 total), becomes an $80 unit for 80 people (or $6400 total). Do you see how $3900 was just added in total cost by manipulating supply and demand? That $3900 is covered under “insurance” )which is just moving money around between people.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/ddt951t/supplydeman.jpg

The way to reduce medical costs is direct pay.

Look at direct medical devices and drugs. When you go to you favorite store to buy Asprin, you can buy Bayer or a generic. Consumers decide if they want to pay the extra money for one over the other. If you go and buy a hearing aid (which is normally not covered under insurance) you can go from the $39 TV special to the $5000 full digital, beam-forming, noise cancelling devices. The $5000 units are profitable, but not the biggest sellers. If you got to chose any set you wanted for a $100 co-pay, no-one would take a $500 set of hearing aids; everyone would chose the $5000 set.

Prices for medical devices are no set by supply and demand. They are set by what is reimbursed. If a device cannot be sold for a decent margin on the reimbursed price, the companies don’t make it (or negotiate a new reimbursed price).

OF course it is easier to scream how you are getting ripped off instead of seeing how artificial demand increases price.

-Dana

This is 100% truth. Every word.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 11:18
A few weeks ago my dad had a MIGRAINE

E.R. of a Chicago hospital, 4 hours, exam, CT scan (I don't know what it cost but I'm sure it was similar, several thousand dollars).

Turns out he has stage IV lung cancer that's metastasized to the brain.

If someone had done a head CT a few years ago, maybe he'd have been able to beat it.

Count your blessings.

I'm sorry, DD.

Fatdaddy
03-16-2012, 11:24
No more than 200.00 at most. It was a night and they were not busy at all. Probably even less than that if you look at it realistically. But 200.00 would be ok even though a doc at his office would charge 60.00

Sadly, you probably would have paid less than this if you had went to a convenient care clinic.:crying:

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 11:42
No more than 200.00 at most. It was a night and they were not busy at all. Probably even less than that if you look at it realistically. But 200.00 would be ok even though a doc at his office would charge 60.00

So should an ER charge more if they're busy?

Should flying on the old Concord cost the same as a 757?

ocjackel
03-16-2012, 11:47
Lets actually go through this and try to explain to the uneducated what is wrong.

This is BASIC economics.

There are supply and demand curves (in this instance I have made them linear for simplicity). How this works (I will be referencing the graph below).

There is a quantity of product that you are able to find sellers in a given market segment that will sell for. This is the RED LINE. At $0 they are willing to supply 0 units. At $100 per unit, they are willing to supply 100 units. Now you have the buyers side (Blue line). At $0 they want (are willing to buy) 100 units. At $100 they want 0 zero units. Where both are satisfied to the maximum extent that the market will allow is where the two lines cross. In this case it is at 50/50. That means the buyer will supply 50 unit at $50 each and the consumer will buy 50 units at $50 each.

What insurance does, is it artificially manipulates these two curves. Since the buyers have insurance, and only pay $20 per unit they want 80 units. The suppliers however will not supply 80 units at $20 each. So insurance kicks in and covers the difference between the supply and demand. Now that 80 units are demanded, the price goes up to $80.
So what has happened, is what was a $50 per unit item for 50 people (or $2500 total), becomes an $80 unit for 80 people (or $6400 total). Do you see how $3900 was just added in total cost by manipulating supply and demand? That $3900 is covered under “insurance” )which is just moving money around between people.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/ddt951t/supplydeman.jpg

The way to reduce medical costs is direct pay.

Look at direct medical devices and drugs. When you go to you favorite store to buy Asprin, you can buy Bayer or a generic. Consumers decide if they want to pay the extra money for one over the other. If you go and buy a hearing aid (which is normally not covered under insurance) you can go from the $39 TV special to the $5000 full digital, beam-forming, noise cancelling devices. The $5000 units are profitable, but not the biggest sellers. If you got to chose any set you wanted for a $100 co-pay, no-one would take a $500 set of hearing aids; everyone would chose the $5000 set.

Prices for medical devices are no set by supply and demand. They are set by what is reimbursed. If a device cannot be sold for a decent margin on the reimbursed price, the companies don’t make it (or negotiate a new reimbursed price).

OF course it is easier to scream how you are getting ripped off instead of seeing how artificial demand increases price.

-Dana

We only need look at two areas of medicine that typically aren't covered by insurance/medicare to show the above it true. Cosmetic surgery and lasik eye surgery.

With both of these the end user typically pays directly out of pocket for the service. This causes the end user to seek out the service on both quality and cost.

I can use my own personal experience as an example. About 25 years ago my mother had a procedure called radial keratotomy done to correct her extreme near sightedness. This procedure was the precursor to laser eye surgery and was performed by a surgeon with a scalpel. I believe the cost was somewhere in the $15K range (which was actually covered by insurance at the time).

Fast forward to 2007 and I had laser eye surgery done to correct my near sightedness. I paid just under $3K for the procedure.

My procedure was significantly safer, faster, and had better results than my moms, and for about 1/5th the cost.

Government and regulation were not the cause of this increase in quality and decrease in cost, the free market was.

All of the doctors, laser eye equipment manufacturers, drug companies all made a profit on my procedure. Their quest for profit are what ultimately made the procedure better and less expensive that what my mom's insurance company paid.

AA#5
03-16-2012, 11:54
You do actually make a great point, the 3 posters, Certifiedfunds, Rabbi and DanaT all have skin in the game either directly or through their significant others in the medical field which makes their opinions biased. In journalism they'd call that a conflict of interest, here they call it an 'unbiased opinion based on facts.' :rofl:

Yes, I could tell long before they revealed it, just by their biased posts that they have skin in the game. I don't think they realize how obvious their bias is - or how ludicrous they sound in their desperation.

Rather amusing, actually; reminds me of how pharmaceutical companies pay for clinical drug trials, then provide doctors with their biased, tortured data, (plus big perks, of course.)

Slug71
03-16-2012, 12:00
The way to reduce medical costs is direct pay.


-Dana

I agree with this 100%
The problem is that most people cannot afford to pay direct.

But i agree 100% that Medicare/Medicaid and the Insurance system is to blame for the high prices.
I think everyone here agrees that.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 12:12
We only need look at two areas of medicine that typically aren't covered by insurance/medicare to show the above it true. Cosmetic surgery and lasik eye surgery.

With both of these the end user typically pays directly out of pocket for the service. This causes the end user to seek out the service on both quality and cost.

I can use my own personal experience as an example. About 25 years ago my mother had a procedure called radial keratotomy done to correct her extreme near sightedness. This procedure was the precursor to laser eye surgery and was performed by a surgeon with a scalpel. I believe the cost was somewhere in the $15K range (which was actually covered by insurance at the time).

Fast forward to 2007 and I had laser eye surgery done to correct my near sightedness. I paid just under $3K for the procedure.

My procedure was significantly safer, faster, and had better results than my moms, and for about 1/5th the cost.

Government and regulation were not the cause of this increase in quality and decrease in cost, the free market was.

All of the doctors, laser eye equipment manufacturers, drug companies all made a profit on my procedure. Their quest for profit are what ultimately made the procedure better and less expensive that what my mom's insurance company paid.

Wow! Excellent example and so true. My lasik in 1999 was like $4000/ eye, cash out of pocket. Costs have dropped significantly while technology has improved.

ordersman
03-16-2012, 12:14
We only need look at two areas of medicine that typically aren't covered by insurance/medicare to show the above it true. Cosmetic surgery and lasik eye surgery.

With both of these the end user typically pays directly out of pocket for the service. This causes the end user to seek out the service on both quality and cost.

I can use my own personal experience as an example. About 25 years ago my mother had a procedure called radial keratotomy done to correct her extreme near sightedness. This procedure was the precursor to laser eye surgery and was performed by a surgeon with a scalpel. I believe the cost was somewhere in the $15K range (which was actually covered by insurance at the time).

Fast forward to 2007 and I had laser eye surgery done to correct my near sightedness. I paid just under $3K for the procedure.

My procedure was significantly safer, faster, and had better results than my moms, and for about 1/5th the cost.

Government and regulation were not the cause of this increase in quality and decrease in cost, the free market was.

All of the doctors, laser eye equipment manufacturers, drug companies all made a profit on my procedure. Their quest for profit are what ultimately made the procedure better and less expensive that what my mom's insurance company paid.

Perfect example and well put.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 12:14
I agree with this 100%
The problem is that most people cannot afford to pay direct.

But i agree 100% that Medicare/Medicaid and the Insurance system is to blame for the high prices.
I think everyone here agrees that.

It is a self-perpetuating problem. The target needs to be middle America. When middle America can pay out of pocket for day to day medical care and only needs a catastrophic policy, we'll be where we need to be.

Its the typical government boondoggle that socialists like douggmc want to either ignore or perpetuate: government mucks up the market, causes a crisis and the socialists response is that we need more government.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 12:19
Socialism ... popular refrain. Laughable.

You folks like to live in some sort of fantasy ideologue world. Everything is black and white. It is the same small, yet vocal group ironically ... that likes to pontificate in absolutes and Constitutional theory as if it were 1787. Year after year.

Forcing people into a single payer pool for medical care isn't socialism?

Seeing as the founders debated, drafted and ratified the COTUS in 1787, it would see *THAT* Constitutional theory would be most correct, no?

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 12:24
I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

:whistling:

Uh, no they aren't. To believe that garbage you have to totally ignore the 9th and 10th amendments no matter how you choose to try to circumscribe the issues.

Moreover, what you're advocating for isn't a government function, it is wealth redistribution. Under your schemes the only way you can provide healthcare to one person is to take it from someone else. Else, there wouldn't be the need for your rationing, would there?


Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.



The BOR was negotiated as a CONDITION of ratification.:rofl:Largely to protect against the kind of crap you advocate for.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right?

When you folks amend the COTUS to authorize the federal government to be involved in paying for healthcare, we can have that discussion.

certifiedfunds
03-16-2012, 12:29
+1 ... profit by anybody but medical providers is the biggest problem in health care.

Does this include the many, many employees of Medicare?