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Sam Spade
03-16-2012, 08:57
I frequently write of awareness, the three stupids, and a bunch of other things that apply to the armed lifestyle. Here's a video that's chock full of illustrations. www.liveleak.com/view?i=1bc_1331685445

So, what's the takeaway?

("Sam is an idiot who can't link for squat" is a given.)

firefighter4215
03-16-2012, 09:06
Wow. I think he needs a proportionally bigger person to give him an attitude adjustment. Hopefully, since he's on video, he'll at least be arrested soon.

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smokin762
03-16-2012, 09:24
My first thought was, you should know when to mind your own business. Sometimes, you are better off calling the police and reporting the situation instead of taking matters into your own hands. They are trained for these situations.

My second thought was, never allow a stranger to get that close to you. You are putting yourself in jeopardy when you are within arm’s reach of a stranger. I don’t like it when people invade my personal space. As my personal rule, I will usually try to back up from a person who gets too close to me. After doing this twice with the same person, I have no problem asking them politely to stop getting so close to me.



I am not a professional anything. I am just a guy that tries to keep a little situational awareness. I believe our personal safety is our own responsibility.

redbaron007
03-16-2012, 09:27
Why did the ladies turn around and come back to him? Why did she allow him to put his arm around her? It's almost as if they knew him.

The link I have is just the video, is there more to this story? Moral of the story, avoid drunks walking on the sidewalk! :rofl:


:wavey:

red

RoundBrown
03-16-2012, 09:29
Im betting that was his GF, and he got mad for reasons unknown.went outside of bar/club, she then came out to talk to him...what it looks like to me

slickt0mmy
03-16-2012, 09:35
That's a great example of the need to be able to walk away from a confrontation. Without audio it's hard to know what was said between the two. I assume he said something derogatory to the two women as they walked past and the one came back to defend her honor. There's no need for that. What's the point in defending your honor to a drunk guy on the sidewalk? He won't remember it in the morning anyway.

Next, like others have said, NEVER get that close to someone on the street. If he can put his arm around you like that, he can just as easily cut your throat.

Sam Spade
03-16-2012, 09:44
Im betting that was his GF, and he got mad for reasons unknown.went outside of bar/club, she then came out to talk to him...what it looks like to me

I don't think so. There's no signal, not even body language, on her initial approach that suggests she has the slightest clue who this guy is. Only after he addresses her on passing does she change posture.

fuzzy03cls
03-16-2012, 09:53
When keeping it real goes wrong

UtahIrishman
03-16-2012, 09:54
She let him get to close. She should have avoided the confrontation entirely and walked away.

I've had people get too close on the street. In one case I jumped up onto a concrete planter box to put some distance between me and them.

Keep your distance...that's my number one rule when walking on the street.

robhic
03-16-2012, 17:10
I think the correct answer is ALL OF THE ABOVE. Situational awareness, knowing when to walk away (or stay away in the first place) and if it HAD been a boyfriend / girlfriend squabble, walking away from the AH would have gotten the "thumbs up" (along with finding a new boyfriend!!!).

Torontogunguy
03-17-2012, 21:52
Generally, in order to justify the use of lethal force on your behalf, there must (a) be a conspicuous disparity of force; and (b) one must be in fear for their life or grievous personal harm that is also imminent.

This is pretty much common throughout the United States and Canada (although concealed carry in Canada is pretty much nonexistant for regular folks).

The protection of PROPERTY on the other hand will vary from state to state and in Canada and is much less liberal than the aforementioned protection of life and limb.

Know the law or pay the price.

HKLovingIT
03-17-2012, 22:25
ETA: Some Video Highlights I Saw...

From the plates on the cars this appears to be in Europe yet the girls seem rather chubby for Euro girls so I'm going to have to go with somewhere in the UK or Quebec for location. American style obesity has made it's way there. It's certainly not anywhere in Eastern Europe, those chicks are hot and slender still. :whistling: Anyway...The second car going down the street appeared to be following the first car too close. He needs to be stopped and possibly treated as a criminal. However, if he has a CCW badge and he is wearing a hat, pat him on the bottom and give him an "On your way good sir."

[FYI - I pegged the location based on car plate style, which indicated Euro, and the chubbiness of the chicks, which indicated UK, before I ever saw in the vid description that yes, this was in the UK :rofl:]

Now the more pertinent things...

At about 00:09 the puncher appears to move to confront the male walking towards him but thinks better of it. At about 00:13 if you watch it in full screen it appears that he actually spits at the blonde girl or does something to insinuate that he is going to spit and that is the trigger of the altercation itself. Though one could argue that the blonde girl staring at him as they walked by was a trigger. Play it full screen and just concentrate on watching his face. He also had his left hand in his pocket for most of it. Could just be a mannerism, could also have had hand on knife or other. The chubby guy in black with the cell and smoking comes on at 00:12. He appears to possibly be with the puncher. Never can tell if you might have to fight one, or a whole pack you didn't expect. Best not to get into street fights.

Here are the takeaways I see...

First mistake: They were too busy talking and not paying attention or they would have noticed the drunk guy staggering around and punching walls just up the street and maybe could have crossed over or stayed more out of the way.

Second mistake: The blonde girl stares the guy down as they pass. Not a bad move to keep an eye on him but she was making eye contact which some people will take as a sign of aggression even from a woman. I view it as a signal to approach and get a phone number if a woman stares at me. Cause I'm so dang good looking.

Next mistakes...

Girls should not engage in verbal altercations on the street with strange drunk guys, or guys in general. Nor should women step to and "keep it real" with said drunk guys. Most men would never lay a hand on a woman. Some guys don't operate by that rule but thankfully they are still in the minority I think. At least in my circles...see below for thoughts on that...

She made a mistake in not realizing that a stranger was using different rules of social conduct and that he would not only violate her personal space but also touch her. In the words of Marc MacYoung "She was a Roman partying with the barbarians and she thought the rules of Rome still applied..."

Same mistake guys make when they refuse to back down from a verbal sleight or they go places they shouldn't be without knowing that the rules of the playground have changed along with the change of scenery and the crowd.

She didn't deserve to get hit, but it appeared from the behavior in the video, that whatever he said or did when they first walked by, she just couldn't let it go and she had to come back (in her mind) and verbally up the ante or have the last word. Mistake. She should have no more done that than I should walk into a biker bar and announce I'm going to kick everyone's a@# and expect that there might be no consequences to what I do.

She played a part in what happened from the moment she decided to turn back around and apparently give him a piece of her mind. Though she did not make him hit her, nor was that even remotely right, her own behavior contributed to put her in the final outcome of the situation through an apparent verbal escalation that she came back and initiated.

In fact, the blonde girl in the pants tried to reel her friend in because she had enough sense to know this was going nowhere good. The girl who confronted him did not listen to her friend and walk away. Mistake.

She absolutely should not have moved closer to a stranger on the street nor allowed a stranger to come close to her like that. But, she was suffering from the white woman's delusion. (see my side note)

It could have been avoided by just continuing to walk down the street. It could have ended up much worse if it had been a knife and not a punch or if he had decided to stomp her when she was down. Hopefully she is okay and learned an important lesson in street smarts.

Oh and notice everyone else just watches. Don't expect people to come running even to the aid of a woman these days.

Worst mistake: Those chicks need to lose about 15-20 and they would be super cute. :dunno:

Stupid Places, With Stupid People, Doing Stupid Things = Stupid Outcomes.

On a side note:

Young ladies used to know better than to stay out late and drunkenly walk the streets scantily dressed and throwing up in bushes. Though their antics are crass, crude and sometimes laughable, it is a mistake to think that you have the right to go where you want and do and say as you please without consequence. You do have the right to go, say and do as you please, but you will take the consequences, good or bad.

Women, particularly suburban white women, seem to suffer from the delusion that no matter what they say or do, no one will touch them. That may well be true in the suburbs or the Giant grocery parking lot but late at night on a city street filled with bars, drunks and alcohol the same rules and social norms do not apply. Too many white suburban women fed high doses of self esteem and empowerment mantra to the point where the sense of entitlement overrides the sense of self preservation and common sense. They get themselves into troubles or their men into troubles. (yes I know we have no timeframe in this particular video and it does not appear these girls were drunk)

I am certain many of us who have lived in larger cities have personally seen cases where kids from the 'burbs come into the city to party and someone's girlfriend shoots her mouth off and gets her boyfriend mixed up in a royal butt whipping or worse. That's also a delightful game younger ladies like to play called "Let's you and him fight.." Google that one if you want to read the psychological literature and underpinnings. Here let me help you...http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_LYAHF.htm

OCCHPT. :rofl:

steveksux
03-18-2012, 06:11
ETA: Some Video Highlights I Saw...

From the plates on the cars this appears to be in Europe yet the girls seem rather chubby for Euro girls so I'm going to have to go with somewhere in the UK or Quebec for location. American style obesity has made it's way there. It's certainly not anywhere in Eastern Europe, those chicks are hot and slender still. :whistling: Anyway...The second car going down the street appeared to be following the first car too close. He needs to be stopped and possibly treated as a criminal. However, if he has a CCW badge and he is wearing a hat, pat him on the bottom and give him an "On your way good sir."

[FYI - I pegged the location based on car plate style, which indicated Euro, and the chubbiness of the chicks, which indicated UK, before I ever saw in the vid description that yes, this was in the UK :rofl:]

Now the more pertinent things...

At about 00:09 the puncher appears to move to confront the male walking towards him but thinks better of it. At about 00:13 if you watch it in full screen it appears that he actually spits at the blonde girl or does something to insinuate that he is going to spit and that is the trigger of the altercation itself. Though one could argue that the blonde girl staring at him as they walked by was a trigger. Play it full screen and just concentrate on watching his face. He also had his left hand in his pocket for most of it. Could just be a mannerism, could also have had hand on knife or other. The chubby guy in black with the cell and smoking comes on at 00:12. He appears to possibly be with the puncher. Never can tell if you might have to fight one, or a whole pack you didn't expect. Best not to get into street fights.

Here are the takeaways I see...

First mistake: They were too busy talking and not paying attention or they would have noticed the drunk guy staggering around and punching walls just up the street and maybe could have crossed over or stayed more out of the way.

Second mistake: The blonde girl stares the guy down as they pass. Not a bad move to keep an eye on him but she was making eye contact which some people will take as a sign of aggression even from a woman. I view it as a signal to approach and get a phone number if a woman stares at me. Cause I'm so dang good looking.

Next mistakes...

Girls should not engage in verbal altercations on the street with strange drunk guys, or guys in general. Nor should women step to and "keep it real" with said drunk guys. Most men would never lay a hand on a woman. Some guys don't operate by that rule but thankfully they are still in the minority I think. At least in my circles...see below for thoughts on that...

She made a mistake in not realizing that a stranger was using different rules of social conduct and that he would not only violate her personal space but also touch her. In the words of Marc MacYoung "She was a Roman partying with the barbarians and she thought the rules of Rome still applied..."

Same mistake guys make when they refuse to back down from a verbal sleight or they go places they shouldn't be without knowing that the rules of the playground have changed along with the change of scenery and the crowd.

She didn't deserve to get hit, but it appeared from the behavior in the video, that whatever he said or did when they first walked by, she just couldn't let it go and she had to come back (in her mind) and verbally up the ante or have the last word. Mistake. She should have no more done that than I should walk into a biker bar and announce I'm going to kick everyone's a@# and expect that there might be no consequences to what I do.

She played a part in what happened from the moment she decided to turn back around and apparently give him a piece of her mind. Though she did not make him hit her, nor was that even remotely right, her own behavior contributed to put her in the final outcome of the situation through an apparent verbal escalation that she came back and initiated.

In fact, the blonde girl in the pants tried to reel her friend in because she had enough sense to know this was going nowhere good. The girl who confronted him did not listen to her friend and walk away. Mistake.

She absolutely should not have moved closer to a stranger on the street nor allowed a stranger to come close to her like that. But, she was suffering from the white woman's delusion. (see my side note)

It could have been avoided by just continuing to walk down the street. It could have ended up much worse if it had been a knife and not a punch or if he had decided to stomp her when she was down. Hopefully she is okay and learned an important lesson in street smarts.

Oh and notice everyone else just watches. Don't expect people to come running even to the aid of a woman these days.

Worst mistake: Those chicks need to lose about 15-20 and they would be super cute. :dunno:

Stupid Places, With Stupid People, Doing Stupid Things = Stupid Outcomes.

On a side note:

Young ladies used to know better than to stay out late and drunkenly walk the streets scantily dressed and throwing up in bushes. Though their antics are crass, crude and sometimes laughable, it is a mistake to think that you have the right to go where you want and do and say as you please without consequence. You do have the right to go, say and do as you please, but you will take the consequences, good or bad.

Women, particularly suburban white women, seem to suffer from the delusion that no matter what they say or do, no one will touch them. That may well be true in the suburbs or the Giant grocery parking lot but late at night on a city street filled with bars, drunks and alcohol the same rules and social norms do not apply. Too many white suburban women fed high doses of self esteem and empowerment mantra to the point where the sense of entitlement overrides the sense of self preservation and common sense. They get themselves into troubles or their men into troubles. (yes I know we have no timeframe in this particular video and it does not appear these girls were drunk)

I am certain many of us who have lived in larger cities have personally seen cases where kids from the 'burbs come into the city to party and someone's girlfriend shoots her mouth off and gets her boyfriend mixed up in a royal butt whipping or worse. That's also a delightful game younger ladies like to play called "Let's you and him fight.." Google that one if you want to read the psychological literature and underpinnings. Here let me help you...http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_LYAHF.htm

OCCHPT. :rofl:Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, but how could she possibly know that a drunk guy that spits on random women walking down the street wasn't going to be a gentleman and would also resort to hitting a woman? :whistling::whistling:

Randy

DannyII
03-18-2012, 06:23
This fight didn't come to her, she came to it. Once they passed, and she went back, she became the aggressor.

No, she shouldn't have gotten hit, but she also should have just kept walking like her friend wanted to.

"Bravery" without intelligence is dangerous.

Dogbite
03-18-2012, 06:34
Do not let someone get very close to you.
Do not get in a verbal confrontation.
Do not escalate an already bad situation.
If in doubt, shut your mouth. (I have seen countless situations where this
would have helped keep everything from going ugly).

Misty02
03-18-2012, 08:55
The ladies appear from the beginning of the video, they are walking past that man. It seems he said something to them that the lady in shorts with the dark top took offense to. At :21 sheís come back to confront him, her friend later tries to pull her away. She responds to him putting his arm around her shoulders by pushing him away and he decks her.

My personal opinion, she shouldnít have turned back to confront him. The two second satisfaction of telling him off is not worth the possible consequences, although now she could press charges against him. Still, not worth it. The risk far outweighs the rewards, why even think about it? In a way she was fortunate, it could have been much worse.

Iím also in agreement with HKLovingITís assessment, with a single exception men are also often guilty of not taking a second to analyze how a situation can reach a point where control is out of their hands as well.

I tried to apply that scenario to something that could happen to me, not that it is impossible for someone to get that close without my consent, but it would be rather difficult. He wouldnít have been allowed to get that close even if attempted during the first passing. I donít stand within peopleís personal space when I speak with them, I donít permit others to stand in mine either (and this is during friendly conversations). A friendly conversation with a stranger would require even more space. An adversarial type of conversation would just be avoided all together.


.

HKLovingIT
03-18-2012, 11:50
The ladies appear from the beginning of the video, they are walking past that man. It seems he said something to them that the lady in shorts with the dark top took offense to. At :21 sheís come back to confront him, her friend later tries to pull her away. She responds to him putting his arm around her shoulders by pushing him away and he decks her.

My personal opinion, she shouldnít have turned back to confront him. The two second satisfaction of telling him off is not worth the possible consequences, although now she could press charges against him. Still, not worth it. The risk far outweighs the rewards, why even think about it? In a way she was fortunate, it could have been much worse.

Iím also in agreement with HKLovingITís assessment, with a single exception men are also often guilty of not taking a second to analyze how a situation can reach a point where control is out of their hands as well.

I tried to apply that scenario to something that could happen to me, not that it is impossible for someone to get that close without my consent, but it would be rather difficult. He wouldnít have been allowed to get that close even if attempted during the first passing. I donít stand within peopleís personal space when I speak with them, I donít permit others to stand in mine either (and this is during friendly conversations). A friendly conversation with a stranger would require even more space. An adversarial type of conversation would just be avoided all together.


.

I agree with you 100%.

AA#5
03-18-2012, 12:09
Looks like he spat at the women, which, of course ticked them off. I'd have called police instead of confronting him. Even the victim's friend tried to restrain her from confronting him.

steveksux
03-18-2012, 12:10
I agree with you 100%.
I see what you did there... Well played, sir...

Randy

Misty02
03-18-2012, 13:11
I see what you did there... Well played, sir...

Randy

:rofl::rofl::rofl: Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

.

bug
03-18-2012, 13:52
ETA: Some Video Highlights I Saw...

From the plates on the cars this appears to be in Europe yet the girls seem rather chubby for Euro girls so I'm going to have to go with somewhere in the UK or Quebec for location. American style obesity has made it's way there. It's certainly not anywhere in Eastern Europe, those chicks are hot and slender still. :whistling: Anyway...The second car going down the street appeared to be following the first car too close. He needs to be stopped and possibly treated as a criminal. However, if he has a CCW badge and he is wearing a hat, pat him on the bottom and give him an "On your way good sir."

[FYI - I pegged the location based on car plate style, which indicated Euro, and the chubbiness of the chicks, which indicated UK, before I ever saw in the vid description that yes, this was in the UK :rofl:]

Now the more pertinent things...

At about 00:09 the puncher appears to move to confront the male walking towards him but thinks better of it. At about 00:13 if you watch it in full screen it appears that he actually spits at the blonde girl or does something to insinuate that he is going to spit and that is the trigger of the altercation itself. Though one could argue that the blonde girl staring at him as they walked by was a trigger. Play it full screen and just concentrate on watching his face. He also had his left hand in his pocket for most of it. Could just be a mannerism, could also have had hand on knife or other. The chubby guy in black with the cell and smoking comes on at 00:12. He appears to possibly be with the puncher. Never can tell if you might have to fight one, or a whole pack you didn't expect. Best not to get into street fights.

Here are the takeaways I see...

First mistake: They were too busy talking and not paying attention or they would have noticed the drunk guy staggering around and punching walls just up the street and maybe could have crossed over or stayed more out of the way.

Second mistake: The blonde girl stares the guy down as they pass. Not a bad move to keep an eye on him but she was making eye contact which some people will take as a sign of aggression even from a woman. I view it as a signal to approach and get a phone number if a woman stares at me. Cause I'm so dang good looking.

Next mistakes...

Girls should not engage in verbal altercations on the street with strange drunk guys, or guys in general. Nor should women step to and "keep it real" with said drunk guys. Most men would never lay a hand on a woman. Some guys don't operate by that rule but thankfully they are still in the minority I think. At least in my circles...see below for thoughts on that...

She made a mistake in not realizing that a stranger was using different rules of social conduct and that he would not only violate her personal space but also touch her. In the words of Marc MacYoung "She was a Roman partying with the barbarians and she thought the rules of Rome still applied..."

Same mistake guys make when they refuse to back down from a verbal sleight or they go places they shouldn't be without knowing that the rules of the playground have changed along with the change of scenery and the crowd.

She didn't deserve to get hit, but it appeared from the behavior in the video, that whatever he said or did when they first walked by, she just couldn't let it go and she had to come back (in her mind) and verbally up the ante or have the last word. Mistake. She should have no more done that than I should walk into a biker bar and announce I'm going to kick everyone's a@# and expect that there might be no consequences to what I do.

She played a part in what happened from the moment she decided to turn back around and apparently give him a piece of her mind. Though she did not make him hit her, nor was that even remotely right, her own behavior contributed to put her in the final outcome of the situation through an apparent verbal escalation that she came back and initiated.

In fact, the blonde girl in the pants tried to reel her friend in because she had enough sense to know this was going nowhere good. The girl who confronted him did not listen to her friend and walk away. Mistake.

She absolutely should not have moved closer to a stranger on the street nor allowed a stranger to come close to her like that. But, she was suffering from the white woman's delusion. (see my side note)

It could have been avoided by just continuing to walk down the street. It could have ended up much worse if it had been a knife and not a punch or if he had decided to stomp her when she was down. Hopefully she is okay and learned an important lesson in street smarts.

Oh and notice everyone else just watches. Don't expect people to come running even to the aid of a woman these days.

Worst mistake: Those chicks need to lose about 15-20 and they would be super cute. :dunno:

Stupid Places, With Stupid People, Doing Stupid Things = Stupid Outcomes.

On a side note:

Young ladies used to know better than to stay out late and drunkenly walk the streets scantily dressed and throwing up in bushes. Though their antics are crass, crude and sometimes laughable, it is a mistake to think that you have the right to go where you want and do and say as you please without consequence. You do have the right to go, say and do as you please, but you will take the consequences, good or bad.

Women, particularly suburban white women, seem to suffer from the delusion that no matter what they say or do, no one will touch them. That may well be true in the suburbs or the Giant grocery parking lot but late at night on a city street filled with bars, drunks and alcohol the same rules and social norms do not apply. Too many white suburban women fed high doses of self esteem and empowerment mantra to the point where the sense of entitlement overrides the sense of self preservation and common sense. They get themselves into troubles or their men into troubles. (yes I know we have no timeframe in this particular video and it does not appear these girls were drunk)

I am certain many of us who have lived in larger cities have personally seen cases where kids from the 'burbs come into the city to party and someone's girlfriend shoots her mouth off and gets her boyfriend mixed up in a royal butt whipping or worse. That's also a delightful game younger ladies like to play called "Let's you and him fight.." Google that one if you want to read the psychological literature and underpinnings. Here let me help you...http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_LYAHF.htm

OCCHPT. :rofl:

I agree with you

I have seen enough cases of women who at every turn take advantage of the average man like most of us, who will not hit a woman. because you have good sense and some honor!

So In turn I have met and know women who actually believe they could go toe to toe with a Man in a physical alteration.
Are there women out there who could? Yes!! but they are few and far between. Are there ways to defend your self yes.

These women made a bad choice going back, they were past the danger zone and on there way to where they were going.
But the victim wanted to get some Payback for what ever chicken **** thing the punk did and by doing so gave him a chance to prove how big of a chicken **** he was.

I have walked away from people trying to push buttons and get a reaction, but as far as carrying a gun goes you owe it to all people who carry everyday to be as nice and polite as possible to every person you come in contact with.
And only use that weapon as a last resort to defend the lives of others or yourself.

Those girls should have just kept walking.

ETA: Chick Fights Dude In MMA Fight Video@@AMEPARAM@@http://embed.break.com/2310107@@AMEPARAM@@2310107
Just so I don't Offend Any women by my comments the above link for your Pleasure She is cute to.

ithaca_deerslayer
03-18-2012, 16:52
I didn't notice any spitting.

What I think happened was the woman (who later got elbowed to the head) did not veer away from the dunk guy as she walked past him, and bumped him in the shoulder. He probably called her the B word after that bump, and looked like he was happy to end it and go on his way.

She turned around and came back to him, probably to say something nasty to him. The other drunk guy, probably friends with the guy who got bumped, came up to her. I think that second drunk guy's plan after his buddy got chewed out was to smash the woman. So he charmed up to her and put his arm around her, maybe being vulgar and giving her an odd chance to change her tune (or not, not sure), then elbowed her in the head and she went down like a sack of potatoes. She may have been hurt, I don't know how bad.

garebel
03-18-2012, 18:11
There is considerable knowledge to be gleaned from the video.
Most learning points have already been brought to light.

It is a valuable learning tool, but, I must admit I find the video disturbing, to say the least.
It sickens me to see that girl elbowed in the face.
She paid a terrible price for the mistakes she and her friend made.

It is a shame that there was no one around to introduce that "tough guy" to a brachial stun, or some other delightful means to help him deal with his problems.:whistling:

HKLovingIT
03-18-2012, 18:29
I see what you did there... Well played, sir...

Randy

Hehehe. :rofl::whistling:

NMGlocker
03-18-2012, 20:47
I didn't notice any spitting.
At 12 seconds he either spits or says something in a spitting manner.

What I think happened is as the girls walked toward him he propositioned them.
They told him to F-off.
He either spit on them or faked a spit on them.
The brunette got mad and went back to "tell him off".
See the above post re: suburban white girls.
He knocked her down and out.

SCmasterblaster
03-19-2012, 05:37
She was asking for what she got. She should have never gone back to him.

fuzzy03cls
03-19-2012, 08:01
Agree, All this nonsense about sit awareness & blah blah blah..... She decided to step up & she got decked for it plain & simple.

djpuffnstuff
03-19-2012, 10:07
When keeping it real goes wrong
This clip would have been a perfect bit.

Lindenwood
03-19-2012, 12:11
As a teacher, I might show this to my classes just as a general life lesson of "think before you act, because the consequences might not be what you expect."

A lot of good posts here!

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MoneyMaker
03-19-2012, 12:26
who knows its just another sensless act,but for selfdefense measures she would haave been convicted even though he hit her 1st.

garebel
03-19-2012, 20:15
She was asking for what she got. She should have never gone back to him.

Are you serious? She was "asking for what she got"?
The guy grabs an innocent young lady and elbows her in the face...and you have the nerve to say it was her fault?
Not allowing some jackass on the street to spit, curse, bump...whatever it was he did to her, without giving him a piece of her mind, is NOT "asking for it".
I guess if he had grabbed her as she and her friend were minding their own business,and started fondling her, that would have been alright too, according to your logic?

It is obvious that he was in the mood for trouble (punching the wall, etc) before he ever encountered those girls.
The unfortunate fact is that the trouble he found was not in the form of someone who was prepared and capable of defending themself against that POS, and his friend as well, if need be.
Just as Sam meant when he posted this clip, It most certainly IS about situational awareness and being able to quickly ascertain and handle a rapidly developing, or deteriorating, encounter on the street.
You guys who have the nerve to blame the girl for getting assaulted make me sick. Grow a pair!

garebel
03-19-2012, 20:50
who knows its just another sensless act,but for selfdefense measures she would haave been convicted even though he hit her 1st.

I apologize if i missed something here, but I have no earthly idea what you are saying.

garebel
03-19-2012, 20:59
Agree, All this nonsense about sit awareness & blah blah blah..... She decided to step up & she got decked for it plain & simple.

Nonsense? Really?
And you advocate "decking" a girl for not allowing some jackass to harass or assault her?

I would love to see how you react to the same treatment she got.
I'm thinking you would just keep on walkin' away after the dude spat on you, or bumped you, or whatever he did to them... so you don't get decked, plain and simple.
Whatever floats your boat...

fuzzy03cls
03-20-2012, 09:33
The basic point is still that she went back to confront after she passed him. She choose the path she chose. If you feel the need to confront everyone who bumps you or makes a comment maybe you need to reevaluate yourself. Remember your carrying a gun. Don't put yourself into the position over some BS that means nothing. Nothing the guy did was enough to get me to confront them. He was not threatening. I'm not a hothead, kickass like some I guess.

VELO
03-20-2012, 09:56
Nonsense? Really?
And you advocate "decking" a girl for not allowing some jackass to harass or assault her?

Step up like a man, get decked like a man.

I'm not advocating hitting women (the hitter is definitely a POS), but you're implying she bears no responsibility for what happened. That's just not true.

The dude on the phone needs his butt kicked as much as the lady-hitter.

I would love to see how you react to the same treatment she got.
I'm thinking you would just keep on walkin' away after the dude spat on you, or bumped you, or whatever he did to them... so you don't get decked, plain and simple.

That's *exactly* what I would do.

slickt0mmy
03-20-2012, 15:18
I would love to see how you react to the same treatment she got.
I'm thinking you would just keep on walkin' away after the dude spat on you, or bumped you, or whatever he did to them... so you don't get decked, plain and simple.
Whatever floats your boat...

This is precisely what I would do. ESPECIALLY if I had my firearm on me. I don't go looking for a fight. If a situation presents itself where it looks like a fight could develop, I get out of there. My firearm is there as an ABSOLUTE last resort in a situation that I cannot control otherwise. This situation absolutely could have been controlled, in the form of prevention.
Some drunk spits at me on the street? Who cares! Keep on walking. It's not like he will remember me going back to tell him off in the morning anyway.

NMGlocker
03-20-2012, 16:43
I would love to see how you react to the same treatment she got.
IF I decided to turn around and confront the guy, my expectations would be a fist fight. And my reactions would be centered around beating him down.
That's the whole point people are trying to get across.
SHE was the one who didn't understand the possible consequences of her actions. She expected to have free rein in a verbal smackdown... she got sucker punched instead.
Sucks to be her.
Lesson learned hopefully.

Reminds me of those stupid tourists who feed the bears then are surprised when the bear mauls them.

robhic
03-20-2012, 16:48
This is one of the more fascinating threads I've read in a long time in a number of places. I especially enjoyed getting the reactions from both sides -- male and female. The reactions to this simple video made a great learning experience. A lot of things to think about.

Thanks to all who commented because this was good!

garebel
03-20-2012, 17:52
Some of my comments have been made in anger, I admit that.
Some of the comments I've seen claiming "she got what she deserved", etc. are disgusting to me, as a husband, a father, a brother, and as a man.

Simply put, I have no use for any male who raises his hand in violence against a woman.
Neither do I have any use for any man here who believes that girl "got what she deserved".

I am not a "kickass hothead" by any means, but I will not stand by and watch a woman get elbowed to the face in front of me either.
Nor will I read comments depicting that girl as at fault in this instance without offering up a dissenting opinion.

Fragman
03-20-2012, 18:05
I'm thinking you would just keep on walkin' away.......

As would you, hopefully.




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Fragman
03-20-2012, 18:10
Some of my comments have been made in anger, I admit that.
Some of the comments I've seen claiming "she got what she deserved", etc. are disgusting to me, as a husband, a father, a brother, and as a man.

Simply put, I have no use for any male who raises his hand in violence against a woman.
Neither do I have any use for any man here who believes that girl "got what she deserved".

I am not a "kickass hothead" by any means, but I will not stand by and watch a woman get elbowed to the face in front of me either.
Nor will I read comments depicting that girl as at fault in this instance without offering up a dissenting opinion.

Agree with you there too. However, if you are armed, and the perp has disengaged as he has in this instance, and no-ones life is in danger, I suggest you comfort the victim and act as a good witness, not a vigilante. Handing out a retaliatory beating that serves no purpose other than to punish, while armed with a deadly weapon is not going to turn out well for you, nor help the victim one bit.

Now, if the attack is still underway, then that changes matters.


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garebel
03-20-2012, 19:10
The basic point is still that she went back to confront after she passed him. She choose the path she chose. If you feel the need to confront everyone who bumps you or makes a comment maybe you need to reevaluate yourself. Remember your carrying a gun. Don't put yourself into the position over some BS that means nothing. Nothing the guy did was enough to get me to confront them. He was not threatening. I'm not a hothead, kickass like some I guess.

The girl did nothing to warrant being elbowed in the face by a stranger.
SHE was not threatening. She never touched him.

This "She stepped up like a man, got decked like a man" mentality doesn't fly with me.
The victim IS NOT A MAN.

How can men here so nonchalantly rationalize seeing a young girl physically assaulted on the street by a complete stranger by saying she brought it on herself?

steveksux
03-20-2012, 19:19
The girl did nothing to warrant being elbowed in the face by a stranger.
SHE was not threatening.

This "She stepped up like a man, got decked like a man" mentality doesn't fly with me.
The victim IS NOT A MAN, in case you missed that little point.Then perhaps she should not mouth off to a drunk guy like a man.

I'm all for never hit a woman, never spit on a woman. However she already knows he's no gentleman for spitting on her. So she thinks its a good idea to confront a guy that can beat her down, all the while depending on the fact that a gentleman would never hit a woman, so she can safely give him a piece of her mind.

People shouldn't act like he did. Problem is they do. And if you base your actions on what people should do when dealing with low life *******s, you shouldn't be surprised when you get beat up by someone who behaves as low life *******s actually do.

It always amazes me when people are mystified when their plans go awry when the plans are based on what people ought to do rather than what people actually do.

There's a world of difference between believing you should be able to walk through the bad sections of town unarmed with $100 bills hanging out of your pockets, and believing you actually can do so without any ill effects. Because people aren't supposed to rob you.

Randy

Misty02
03-20-2012, 19:51
Some of my comments have been made in anger, I admit that.
Some of the comments I've seen claiming "she got what she deserved", etc. are disgusting to me, as a husband, a father, a brother, and as a man.

Simply put, I have no use for any male who raises his hand in violence against a woman.
Neither do I have any use for any man here who believes that girl "got what she deserved".

I am not a "kickass hothead" by any means, but I will not stand by and watch a woman get elbowed to the face in front of me either.
Nor will I read comments depicting that girl as at fault in this instance without offering up a dissenting opinion.

I understand what you mean, garebel and, in a way, it is a good thing there are men like you around. Personally, I don’t believe a man should raise a hand to a lady.

What we saw on the video is not the same thing, but I actually had to undo our teachings to our boys to never hit a girl after a girl beat the living daylights out of my oldest (ok, it wasn’t as bad, but he sure had plenty of black and blues from it) and he never raised a hand even to restrain her. It took me forever to undo the damage I had done, to this day I don’t know if it worked because the opportunity to test it has never presented itself again.

Here is the thing, while I don’t expect a gentleman to sit by and see a lady be hit by another man; I also don’t expect a gentleman to jump when a woman has provoked a situation where she is over her head. If I am to talk to man that has offended me (not that I'll bother since he's likely not worth the effort), I would talk to him softly, with respect and with full intent to make him feel ashamed for his behavior. It is illogical to go full steam ahead, unless I just want to be punched on the nose. Now, if the man physically assaults me, I’ll likely just shoot him.

A woman that is with a man (husband, boyfriend, son, friend, etc.) that provokes drunks, or any other person, doesn’t care much about that man that is with her. She knows what will happen if she doesn’t prevent it somehow, it says much about her (and none of it is good).

My sincere recommendation, if you weren’t around to witness the entire thing, and you don’t know why you saw a man hit a woman, call the police and let them handle it. If you were around for the whole thing and it was unwarranted, then by all means, be the gentleman you were taught to be. However, keep in mind you are armed, a serious fight that gets out of control can claim the ultimate price.


ETA: my oldest was around 13 or so (perhaps a bit younger) when that happened.
.

MinnesnowtaWild
03-20-2012, 21:41
Why did the other guy not beat the piss out of him?

garebel
03-20-2012, 22:05
I understand what you mean, garebel and, in a way, it is a good thing there are men like you around. Personally, I don’t believe a man should raise a hand to a lady.

What we saw on the video is not the same thing, but I actually had to undo our teachings to our boys to never hit a girl after a girl beat the living daylights out of my oldest (ok, it wasn’t as bad, but he sure had plenty of black and blues from it) and he never raised a hand even to restrain her. It took me forever to undo the damage I had done, to this day I don’t know if it worked because the opportunity to test it has never presented itself again.

Here is the thing, while I don’t expect a gentleman to sit by and see a lady be hit by another man; I also don’t expect a gentleman to jump when a woman has provoked a situation where she is over her head. If I am to talk to man that has offended me (not that I'll bother since he's likely not worth the effort), I would talk to him softly, with respect and with full intent to make him feel ashamed for his behavior. It is illogical to go full steam ahead, unless I just want to be punched on the nose. Now, if the man physically assaults me, I’ll likely just shoot him.

A woman that is with a man (husband, boyfriend, son, friend, etc.) that provokes drunks, or any other person, doesn’t care much about that man that is with her. She knows what will happen if she doesn’t prevent it somehow, it says much about her (and none of it is good).[/FONT]

My sincere recommendation, if you weren’t around to witness the entire thing, and you don’t know why you saw a man hit a woman, call the police and let them handle it. If you were around for the whole thing and it was unwarranted, then by all means, be the gentleman you were taught to be. [FONT=Verdana]However, keep in mind you are armed, a serious fight that gets out of control can claim the ultimate price.


ETA: my oldest was around 13 or so (perhaps a bit younger) when that happened.
.

You raise some good points Misty (as usual)

I agree wholeheartedly that once a girl engages in a physical altercation with a man, she is crossing the line, and subjecting herself to the consequences of whatever it takes for the man to defend himself, even possibly catching an elbow to the face.

Additionally, I've seen girls run their mouth and end up having their boyfriends/husbands end up in jail or beat up (or both).
No way would I sit by and allow a girl I was with to drag me into a situation by continuing to run her mouth while knowing I would most likely be "taking the hit" for it, possibly literally.

There is a bit of gray area, IMO, when it comes to how a woman may have provoked an attack.
In the case of this video, the girl doesn't instigate the encounter, she responds to it.
She doesn't stand there for any length of time and provoke the guy (the encounter doesn't last more than a few seconds in its entirety), and she never lays a finger on him.
I don't deny that going back and telling him off was probably not the best thing for her to do, and I would tell my daughter NOT to do that as well.

The thing that has gotten me worked up about this thread (Can you tell?) is the attitude that so many guys have expressed, and the manner in which they expressed it....
To watch that POS attack that girl on the street with no provocation, and then to read that "She got what she deserved", "Step up like a man get punched like a man", "She got dropped"......"She shouldn't "mouth off to a drunk guy" (Really Randy? she deserved an elbow to the face for that?)
I wasn't raised like that, and I'm damn proud of that.

I usually am armed with both a pistol and a folding pocket knife. A knife I have carried since I was a boy, the pistol for almost twenty five years. I've never drawn either, for any combative reason, and I plan to keep it that way.
I'm aware that getting into a physical confrontation while armed carries consequences, and I trust my judgement and instincts (still) to help me avoid possible conflicts.

If I was not around to see what transpired completely, trust me, I would not be jumping in, or on, other than to prevent any further attacks. However, if I witnessed this scene,from the beginning, that guy would not be allowed to walk away after striking her like that.

I would deal with the consequences of my action, as opposed to having to try to deal with the personal knowledge of my inaction.

jpa
03-20-2012, 22:21
Garebel, I understand what you're talking about. Understand the people who are saying she got what was coming to her are those who have dealt with scumbags, have been in scrapes with drunken aholes and have the common sense and street smarts to know that a thug on the street operates within a different set of beliefs and values than the rest of us do. A drunk on the street has his inhibitions and judgement sufficiently impaired by alcohol that he won't act as he normally would. Maybe he was raised in a fine upper class family and would never THINK of hitting a woman, but he went out on a bender with his frat brothers and is blindingly drunk. At that point you can't hold him to the same standard as a sober, rational human. I don't excuse the behavior but at the same time I understand how and why it happens. The best way to avoid being the victim of an assault is to avoid contact with the people who are capable of assaulting you. That includes not confronting that person about their crass manners and verbally cornering them until they feel the need to lash out.

As the saying goes "don't start none, won't be none."

Fragman
03-20-2012, 22:30
You raise some good points Misty (as usual)

I agree wholeheartedly that once a girl engages in a physical altercation with a man, she is crossing the line, and subjecting herself to the consequences of whatever it takes for the man to defend himself, even possibly catching an elbow to the face.

Additionally, I've seen girls run their mouth and end up having their boyfriends/husbands end up in jail or beat up (or both).
No way would I sit by and allow a girl I was with to drag me into a situation by continuing to run her mouth while knowing I would most likely be "taking the hit" for it, possibly literally.

There is a bit of gray area, IMO, when it comes to how a woman may have provoked an attack.
In the case of this video, the girl doesn't instigate the encounter, she responds to it.
She doesn't stand there for any length of time and provoke the guy (the encounter doesn't last more than a few seconds in its entirety), and she never lays a finger on him.
I don't deny that going back and telling him off was probably not the best thing for her to do, and I would tell my daughter NOT to do that as well.

The thing that has gotten me worked up about this thread (Can you tell?) is the attitude that so many guys have expressed, and the manner in which they expressed it....
To watch that POS attack that girl on the street with no provocation, and then to read that "She got what she deserved", "Step up like a man get punched like a man", "She got dropped"......
I wasn't raised like that, and I'm damn proud of that.

I usually am armed with both a pistol and a folding pocket knife. A knife I have carried since I was a boy, the pistol for almost twenty five years. I've never drawn either, for any combative reason, and I plan to keep it that way, God willing.
I'm aware that getting into a physical confrontation while armed carries consequences, and I trust my judgement and instincts (still) to help me avoid possible conflicts.

If I was not around to see what transpired completely, trust me, I would not be jumping in, or on, other than to prevent any further attacks. However, if I witnessed this scene,from the beginning, that guy would not be allowed to walk away after striking her like that.
There are plenty of non-lethal methods that could be employed to stop/drop an indidual, like that guy, without needing to get into any prolonged grappling or scuffling, and absolutely without ever having to even reveal that I was carrying a concealed weapon.

I would deal with the consequences of my action, as opposed to having to try to deal with the personal knowledge of my inaction.

Uhuh, and how do you know that the guy on the phone was not with the perp? Now it's two on one, you are out of your depth in a situation that you initiated. The attack on the girl is OVER and the perp has disengaged. Your encounter is a new encounter. So, at the very least, you would be guilty of assault. At the worst, you would be in jail for murder. Because you started THAT encounter. Not to mention that you risk the perp re-engaging the victim, or producing a weapon and the victim getting caught up in YOUR battle.

You're not a cop. Tend to the victim, get a description and be a good witness.


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Fragman
03-20-2012, 22:33
Why did the other guy not beat the piss out of him?

Because he was probably WITH him. The perp was just ahead of him because the guy was on the phone. Look at how they both turn at the same time. Look how they both stop and stand close together during the encounter with the girls. Look how he heads off ambling after the perp rather than running to help the girls.
They were TOGETHER.


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Fragman
03-20-2012, 22:40
Oh, and I should add that I totally agree with garebel's sentiments about the somewhat disturbing posts that suggest she 'deserved it'. I just disagree with initiating a new encounter when it would not help the situation.


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Misty02
03-20-2012, 22:49
You are right, garebel. The guy was a jerk; he deserves to be smacked into the next kingdom. People like that end up getting what they deserve, its best if the next person does it and someone we care about is not the one that has to sit in jail or nurture a broken jaw.

No one deserves what she got, but she went back to escalate things. Her attitude and body language when she pulled away from her friend was very telling. She would have likely smacked him eventually, even if he had not attempted to put his arm around her. If anyone goes back to confront another in full rage, what should that person expect be the response of the other? Rage invites rage. It had nowhere to go but down.

You should be proud of the way you were raised. I hope any woman that is with either of my boys feels safe and protected and I hope that is exactly the way either makes them feel. I would not be a happy camper if I was ever to find out they took advantage of them and purposely got them into a fight.

As I attempted to modify our teachings I had to explain to them that there is a difference between a lady and a woman. They should always protect a lady, exercise caution when they decide to protect a woman.

And yes, I saw the text shaking and could tell you were all worked up in spite not knowing you. :) Iím married to and am the mother of two boys that are just like you. I would do just about anything to ensure they never got into something because of me.


.

garebel
03-20-2012, 23:03
Garebel, I understand what you're talking about. Understand the people who are saying she got what was coming to her are those who have dealt with scumbags, have been in scrapes with drunken aholes and have the common sense and street smarts to know that a thug on the street operates within a different set of beliefs and values than the rest of us do. A drunk on the street has his inhibitions and judgement sufficiently impaired by alcohol that he won't act as he normally would. Maybe he was raised in a fine upper class family and would never THINK of hitting a woman, but he went out on a bender with his frat brothers and is blindingly drunk. At that point you can't hold him to the same standard as a sober, rational human. I don't excuse the behavior but at the same time I understand how and why it happens. The best way to avoid being the victim of an assault is to avoid contact with the people who are capable of assaulting you. That includes not confronting that person about their crass manners and verbally cornering them until they feel the need to lash out.As the saying goes "don't start none, won't be none."

I've dealt with scumbags and drunken aholes as well, plenty of them. I've worked in some environments where both were quite prevalent. I'm "retired" from that type of life and activity now, and actually make it a habit to avoid spots where I know trouble is more than likely hanging out.
My brother is a retired LEO from an agency in DeKalb County, GA, where he was in the creme de la creme, including a long stint in domestic violence.
He has seen the disfigured faces, knocked out teeth, and broken bones, and he would be the first to tell you that, in this video, the girl DID NOT get what was coming to her.

garebel
03-20-2012, 23:13
Oh, and I should add that I totally agree with garebel's sentiments about the somewhat disturbing posts that suggest she 'deserved it'. I just disagree with initiating a new encounter when it would not help the situation.


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Thank you.

Shinesintx
03-20-2012, 23:22
IF I decided to turn around and confront the guy, my expectations would be a fist fight. And my reactions would be centered around beating him down.
That's the whole point people are trying to get across.
SHE was the one who didn't understand the possible consequences of her actions. She expected to have free rein in a verbal smackdown... she got sucker punched instead.
Sucks to be her.
Lesson learned hopefully.

Reminds me of those stupid tourists who feed the bears then are surprised when the bear mauls them.

One of the most sensible posts that I have read.

Is it wrong that I laughed at the video?:supergrin:

garebel
03-21-2012, 05:24
One of the most sensible posts that I have read.

Is it wrong that I laughed at the video?:supergrin:

If that is your choice, go right ahead.

Is it ok if someone laughs at seeing your wife, girlfriend, daughter, sister, etc. take an elbow to the face ? :D

garebel
03-21-2012, 06:17
You are right, garebel. The guy was a jerk; he deserves to be smacked into the next kingdom. People like that end up getting what they deserve, its best if the next person does it and someone we care about is not the one that has to sit in jail or nurture a broken jaw.

No one deserves what she got, but she went back to escalate things. Her attitude and body language when she pulled away from her friend was very telling. She would have likely smacked him eventually, even if he had not attempted to put his arm around her. If anyone goes back to confront another in full rage, what should that person expect be the response of the other? Rage invites rage. It had nowhere to go but down.

You should be proud of the way you were raised. I hope any woman that is with either of my boys feels safe and protected and I hope that is exactly the way either makes them feel. I would not be a happy camper if I was ever to find out they took advantage of them and purposely got them into a fight.

As I attempted to modify our teachings I had to explain to them that there is a difference between a lady and a woman. They should always protect a lady, exercise caution when they decide to protect a woman.

And yes, I saw the text shaking and could tell you were all worked up in spite not knowing you. :) I’m married to and am the mother of two boys that are just like you. I would do just about anything to ensure they never got into something because of me.


.

Thank you for your kind words Misty,

This thread has stirred emotions in me such as no other has. I suppose it has to do with being a father of a daughter, close to the girls age in the video, as well as bringing back old memories of things that I have, in fact, seen, and would like to forget.
There are two seperate issues that I have weighed in on, the first being the comments that have been tossed out, which I have already said my piece concerning, and the second is what I would do if witnessing the incident in person.

I went back, and took another look at the video to see if there was something I missed, regarding the girl's actions.
Watching even more closely, I draw the conclusion that the girl who was spit upon was not the girl who turned back, but rather her friend. At first, she was content to continue walking on, but, apparently she got mad when she either saw, or was told, that he had actually spit on her friend, and that is when she made the decision to confront the guy. You're right, her friend was indeed tryng to restrain her, as if to say "its okay, lets just go". I also came away with the opinion that the guy on the phone is absolutely with the other guy, no doubt in my mind.
I agree with you, and others here, that her decision to to turn and confront was not a good one, but I can see my own emotions certainly ratcheted up when the person hurt is someone I care about, rather than myself.
In all honesty, its easy for me to see that video and get worked up and spout off about "what I would do to that guy", just as it is easy for anyone here to form their opinion while sitting at a computer.
We all put forth what we hope is the correct thing to say for a particular situation, and hope that we would do the "right thing" if ever confronted with it in real life.
I can't say , honestly, what I would do or, not do. Anyone prepared to deal in absolutes here on a forum, regarding an incident such as this, is kidding themself.
I retract my original statement about my absolutely intervening physically against the guy(s), and I'll just say that, unless I was there, I can't say either way.

The comments regarding the girl have left a bad taste in my mouth, and a different opinion, unfortunately, of several members here.
No big deal, it is a gun forum, not a family reunion.

jpa
03-21-2012, 08:09
I've dealt with scumbags and drunken aholes as well, plenty of them. I've worked in some environments where both were quite prevalent. I'm "retired" from that type of life and activity now, and actually make it a habit to avoid spots where I know trouble is more than likely hanging out.
My brother is a retired LEO from an agency in DeKalb County, GA, where he was in the creme de la creme, including a long stint in domestic violence.
He has seen the disfigured faces, knocked out teeth, and broken bones, and he would be the first to tell you that, in this video, the girl DID NOT get what was coming to her.

So based on your experience and knowledge, would you advise this girl that confronting this unknown stranger in the street is a good idea? If you were in her position would you have returned to confront him? What would you expect his reaction to be if you confronted him and what would the probable outcome be?

How about your brother? Based on his training and experience, would he advise this girl to confront this person on the street? If someone would summarize what happened in the video, would he be shocked at the ending?

Domestics and random street violence have nothing in common. Completely different circumstances, different relationships between the victim and offender and different social expectations of that relationship. In a domestic usually the offender and victim know each other very well, they cohabitate, they have a history together and the social expectation is that they treat each other with a level of mutual respect that precludes violence against each other. In random street violence that relationship and expectation doesn't exist. I don't condone either form of violence but to compare a random act of street violence to domestic violence doesn't make sense.

fuzzy03cls
03-21-2012, 08:47
The girl did nothing to warrant being elbowed in the face by a stranger.
SHE was not threatening. She never touched him.

This "She stepped up like a man, got decked like a man" mentality doesn't fly with me.
The victim IS NOT A MAN.

How can men here so nonchalantly rationalize seeing a young girl physically assaulted on the street by a complete stranger by saying she brought it on herself?
Ok, well ask yourself this... Would you have the same reaction if this was a man that get elbowed? If not, your using you own prejudice & feelings in anger because it's a woman.
I don't see it as a woman. I see it as someone that decided to confront a non threatening person because of his minor BS actions, whether that be cursing, spitting, heckling, etc & they got decked for their trouble.
No one is saying woman should get beat up or males should beat them up, of course if the man was beating her up in public some should step in & I would if I was there. The guy backed off after the elbow. It's over at that point. Being all "man" now & "defending" her while armed mind you is a bad choice. Attend to the woman, make sure she is ok, Then fend if the guy starting again.

VELO
03-21-2012, 09:59
Some of my comments have been made in anger, I admit that.
I am not a "kickass hothead" by any means...

So which is it?

The girl did nothing to warrant being elbowed in the face by a stranger.
SHE was not threatening. She never touched him.

This "She stepped up like a man, got decked like a man" mentality doesn't fly with me.
The victim IS NOT A MAN.

Then she should have acted like a lady.

How can men here so nonchalantly rationalize seeing a young girl physically assaulted on the street by a complete stranger by saying she brought it on herself?

Because she did. Should the man have hit the girl? Absolutely not, but she *did* bring this on herself when she decided to turn around and give the guy an earful.

Additionally, I've seen girls run their mouth and end up having their boyfriends/husbands end up in jail or beat up (or both).
No way would I sit by and allow a girl I was with to drag me into a situation by continuing to run her mouth while knowing I would most likely be "taking the hit" for it, possibly literally.

So then you admit that this girl was escalating a situation that could lead to violence?

What if some kickass hothead walked up on this after she's already engaged in an argument with this guy, makes a dangerous assumption based on personal prejudice and decides that the drunk needs some wall to wall counseling?

There is a bit of gray area, IMO, when it comes to how a woman may have provoked an attack.
In the case of this video, the girl doesn't instigate the encounter, she responds to it.
She doesn't stand there for any length of time and provoke the guy (the encounter doesn't last more than a few seconds in its entirety), and she never lays a finger on him.
I don't deny that going back and telling him off was probably not the best thing for her to do, and I would tell my daughter NOT to do that as well.

Here we agree. You should show your daughter this video so she can get a good look at what could happen if she decides to take on a drunk.

Simply put, I have no use for any male who raises his hand in violence against a woman.
Neither do I have any use for any man here who believes that girl "got what she deserved".

This "She stepped up like a man, got decked like a man" mentality doesn't fly with me.

The thing that has gotten me worked up about this thread (Can you tell?) is the attitude that so many guys have expressed, and the manner in which they expressed it....
To watch that POS attack that girl on the street with no provocation, and then to read that "She got what she deserved", "Step up like a man get punched like a man", "She got dropped"......"She shouldn't "mouth off to a drunk guy" (Really Randy? she deserved an elbow to the face for that?)


I think we're all aware of your position. But please stop saying that she didn't provoke the guy. She turned around and got in his face. That's provocation.

I wasn't raised like that, and I'm damn proud of that.

You've made some assumptions that don't fly with me. I was going to let it go, but since you've decided to repeatedly quote me I'm going to address them.

I was raised very well, thank you. I would never, ever hit a woman. Period. I also would never, ever mouth off to a drunk. Period. I was also raised that are consequences to my actions. Sometimes those consequences hurt....badly.

Your huffing and puffing about the manliness of rest of us (who would be the majority in this thread) that think this girl played a stupid game and won a stupid prize is getting old. I don't think there's a person here who would do what the drunk guy did and more than likely each of us would come immediately to her aid had we witnessed this happen. So get off that high horse of yours. It's easier to see what's actually happening when you have a closer view.

garebel
03-21-2012, 10:53
So which is it?



Then she should have acted like a lady.



Because she did. Should the man have hit the girl? Absolutely not, but she *did* bring this on herself when she decided to turn around and give the guy an earful.



So then you admit that this girl was escalating a situation that could lead to violence?

What if some kickass hothead walked up on this after she's already engaged in an argument with this guy, makes a dangerous assumption based on personal prejudice and decides that the drunk needs some wall to wall counseling?



Here we agree. You should show your daughter this video so she can get a good look at what could happen if she decides to take on a drunk.







I think we're all aware of your position. But please stop saying that she didn't provoke the guy. She turned around and got in his face. That's provocation.



You've made some assumptions that don't fly with me. I was going to let it go, but since you've decided to repeatedly quote me I'm going to address them.

I was raised very well, thank you. I would never, ever hit a woman. Period. I also would never, ever mouth off to a drunk. Period. I was also raised that are consequences to my actions. Sometimes those consequences hurt....badly.

Your huffing and puffing about the manliness of rest of us (who would be the majority in this thread) that think this girl played a stupid game and won a stupid prize is getting old. I don't think there's a person here who would do what the drunk guy did and more than likely each of us would come immediately to her aid had we witnessed this happen. So get off that high horse of yours. It's easier to see what's actually happening when you have a closer view.

"Step up like a man, get decked like a man"
There is your quote, again.

Did I imply that you, or anyone else here would do what the drunk guy did? No.
Do I think your comment, and others posted here to be ignorant? Yep.

Perhaps you , and a lot of others on this board should be the ones to take a closer look at the video again.
Look closely...does she touch him. or even get in his face? No.
We seem to differ as to what "stepping up like a man" actually is.

Her actions were ill advised, I have stated that, but to say "GET DECKED LIKE A MAN" OR "SHE HAD IT COMING" is ignorant, and completely uncalled for.
Frankly, I could give a rat's ass about your opinion of my "huffing and puffing"

VELO
03-21-2012, 11:23
Some of my comments have been made in anger, I admit that.
I am not a "kickass hothead" by any means,

So which is it?

"Step up like a man, get decked like a man"
There is your quote, again.

Frankly, I could give a rat's ass about your opinion of my "huffing and puffing"

Thanks for clearing that up.

/threadjack

Apologies to Sam for this derailment.

garebel
03-21-2012, 11:37
So based on your experience and knowledge, would you advise this girl that confronting this unknown stranger in the street is a good idea? If you were in her position would you have returned to confront him? What would you expect his reaction to be if you confronted him and what would the probable outcome be?

How about your brother? Based on his training and experience, would he advise this girl to confront this person on the street? If someone would summarize what happened in the video, would he be shocked at the ending?

Domestics and random street violence have nothing in common. Completely different circumstances, different relationships between the victim and offender and different social expectations of that relationship. In a domestic usually the offender and victim know each other very well, they cohabitate, they have a history together and the social expectation is that they treat each other with a level of mutual respect that precludes violence against each other. In random street violence that relationship and expectation doesn't exist. I don't condone either form of violence but to compare a random act of street violence to domestic violence doesn't make sense.

I have stated that her actions were ill advised.
I do ,however, take exception to the posts here made by many "men" that say she "had it coming" and "she stepped up like a man and got decked like a man" ,"laughed at the video", etc.
You have told me that you understand my thinking, but then you seem to defend the remarks that I took offense to by saying those posters were , in a sense, more "streetwise", and used to dealing with aholes and scumbags.
I tend to find that somewhat doubtful, in all honesty. Can you clarify for me where these gentlemen acquired all of this experience?
I'm "stepping up like a man"and saying that a man can deal with aholes and scumbags day in and day out, and not stoop to making comments of that nature.
Do you disagree??

Random street violence and domestic violence are, indeed, quite different, in some aspects. In fact, DV can almost be perceived to be even more horrific, due to the fact that the abuse can last for years, perhaps lifetimes, rather than be a single brutal attack on the street.

The bottom line, however, is that violence against women is violence against women.
The particular breed of ahole might be different, but the damage wrought forth is quite the same.

NMGlocker
03-21-2012, 11:41
To quote William Munney from the movie The Unforgiven just before he kills Little Bill.
"Deserves got nuthin to do with it."

Of course this young woman didn't deserve to get sucker punched.
But deserves got nuthin to do with it.
Bad things happen to good people when they make poor choices.

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garebel
03-21-2012, 11:42
Thanks for clearing that up.

/threadjack

Apologies to Sam for this derailment.

You are most welcome.
I also apologize to Sam for getting incensed at a few stupid comments in an otherwise very informative thread.

slickt0mmy
03-21-2012, 12:05
A poor choice led to a poor outcome. Simple as that.

NMGlocker
03-21-2012, 14:46
For you "white knights" who want to ride to her rescue.
I suggest you read the Trayvon Martin - Zimmerman shooting thread.

Let's say you witnessed this clown punch the woman.
You decide to defend her honor and run over and grab the guy.
He ends up being a lot tougher than you and starts to beat you down, BADLY.
Right before you fade into unconsciousness you draw your CCW and shoot him.
When the cops arrive, it's you with a bloody nose and a smoking gun, he's dead.
The woman you "saved" has disappeared and all the witnesses saw was you and this guy involved in a fight that YOU seemed to have started.
What now tough guy?

Fragman
03-21-2012, 17:42
For you "white knights" who want to ride to her rescue.
I suggest you read the Trayvon Martin - Zimmerman shooting thread.

Let's say you witnessed this clown punch the woman.
You decide to defend her honor and run over and grab the guy.
He ends up being a lot tougher than you and starts to beat you down, BADLY.
Right before you fade into unconsciousness you draw your CCW and shoot him.
When the cops arrive, it's you with a bloody nose and a smoking gun, he's dead.
The woman you "saved" has disappeared and all the witnesses saw was you and this guy involved in a fight that YOU seemed to have started.
What now tough guy?

Well put.


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Deaf Smith
03-21-2012, 17:52
I frequently write of awareness, the three stupids, and a bunch of other things that apply to the armed lifestyle. Here's a video that's chock full of illustrations. www.liveleak.com/view?i=1bc_1331685445

So, what's the takeaway?

("Sam is an idiot who can't link for squat" is a given.)

Sam,

It's ok to try to help people, or to even complain to people about their conduct, for the Good Samaritan did help others and Jesus did point out others failings from time to time, BUT the Samaritan gave aid to a HELPLESS MAN who had been beaten and robbed and thus unable to attack the Samaritan (and the disciples of Jesus had swords!)

This lady could have confronted him at a distance and if he got closer told him to back off (as anyone who as been to SouthNarc's class would know.)

Her problem was letting him get his arm around her. I bet she won't do that again.

Deaf

Fragman
03-21-2012, 18:02
Sam,

It's ok to try to help people, or to even complain to people about their conduct, for the Good Samaritan did help others and Jesus did point out others failings from time to time, BUT the Samaritan gave aid to a HELPLESS MAN who had been beaten and robbed and thus unable to attack the Samaritan (and the disciples of Jesus had swords!)

This lady could have confronted him at a distance and if he got closer told him to back off (as anyone who as been to SouthNarc's class would know.)

Her problem was letting him get his arm around her. I bet she won't do that again.

Deaf

The Good Samaritan tended to the victim. He did not pursue the perp to administer a vigilante justice beat down.


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garebel
03-21-2012, 18:47
The Good Samaritan tended to the victim. He did not pursue the perp to administer a vigilante justice beat down.


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Where in the video is the girl attempting to do a vigilante beat down?

Fragman
03-21-2012, 19:11
Where in the video is the girl attempting to do a vigilante beat down?

Not talking about the girl.


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Deaf Smith
03-21-2012, 21:53
The Good Samaritan tended to the victim. He did not pursue the perp to administer a vigilante justice beat down.


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Stopping a criminal from leaving the scene of the crime is not a 'vigilante justice beat down'. If force is needed to apprehend him, then so be it, but it is not 'vigilante'. It can be citizens arrest. Plenty of cases where people stepped in to detain criminals for the police.

In fact in the Virgin Islands, on my honeymoon, two of us did chase down a purse snatcher in Charlot and held him down for the police. If he had done more that struggle to resist WE would have done more than keep him in joint locks.

And in college I held a man who broke into my parents house in the winter, with a Colt Agent .38. If he had of attacked, yep I'd have done what was necessary to stop that.

Deaf

Fragman
03-21-2012, 22:33
Stopping a criminal from leaving the scene of the crime is not a 'vigilante justice beat down'. If force is needed to apprehend him, then so be it, but it is not 'vigilante'. It can be citizens arrest. Plenty of cases where people stepped in to detain criminals for the police.

In fact in the Virgin Islands, on my honeymoon, two of us did chase down a purse snatcher in Charlot and held him down for the police. If he had done more that struggle to resist WE would have done more than keep him in joint locks.

And in college I held a man who broke into my parents house in the winter, with a Colt Agent .38. If he had of attacked, yep I'd have done what was necessary to stop that.

Deaf

I am referring to the posters who say they would have gone after the guy and given him what he deserved.

They were not talking about detaining him for the cops.

And, again, it's evident from the video that the guy on the phone is with the perp. So, now you are one on two. And you are armed. Surely your CCW class talked about not provoking a situation?

If the attack was in progress, then if course, that's different. But it is not. So, you have no legal recourse if it goes pear shaped.

If you carry a gun, then unfortunately, there are some avenues that just are not open to you. Besides, his ass ain't getting away when he is that toasted. Cops will get him 40 yards down the road.

I live in Texas, where the deadly force statutes are pretty liberal. You can even deploy it in defence of your property. Hell, you can deploy it defending your neighbours property. Even here though, if I went after the guy, then it turns out his buddy is with him and it escalates, I am not in great shape legally as I would have been the instigator.

Sucks, because he does need to be taken down and handed over to the cops, but not while I am packing. Not if there isn't any threat.




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fuzzy03cls
03-22-2012, 07:57
Frankly, I could give a rat's ass about your opinion of my "huffing and puffing"
Just remember if you carry a concealed firearm you should watch your actions in situations that you walk into blindly. Remember there's always someone bigger faster stronger & more determined then you out there.
We wouldn't want to to have a incident.

badge315
03-22-2012, 09:04
Any man that lays a hand on a woman because of something she said is a subhuman, punk-ass *****.

Fortunately for me, my wife has the ability to tell somebody to go to hell in such a manner that they look forward to the trip. :supergrin:

garebel
03-22-2012, 16:08
Just remember if you carry a concealed firearm you should watch your actions in situations that you walk into blindly. Remember there's always someone bigger faster stronger & more determined then you out there.
We wouldn't want to to have a incident.

When did I say anything about walking into a situation blindly?

This was my posting:
"There is considerable knowledge to be gleaned from the video.
Most learning points have already been brought to light.

It is a valuable learning tool, but, I must admit I find the video disturbing, to say the least.
It sickens me to see that girl elbowed in the face.
She paid a terrible price for the mistakes she and her friend made.

It is a shame that there was no one around to introduce that "tough guy" to a brachial stun, or some other delightful means to help him deal with his problems. "

I stand by my statement.

The "huffing and puffing" was after i admittedly became angered by some of the posts that claimed "She had it coming to her".

I still find those posts to be ignorant and, yes, they still piss me off.

If I truly felt as if my firearm was the only means by which I could protect myself, or a young lady who was getting attacked, I WOULD NOT carry a firearm.

I've had my ass kicked before, rest assured, but would that stop me from engaging that guy, or his friend, or both, to physically stop them from attacking her? Nope.
Would getting my ass kicked force me to draw my firearm?
Unless those two guys happen to have a lot more going on physically than what I see on the video, I don't see that happening.
Now, if they produce a weapon, that changes things.
__________________
What we do in life echoes in eternity

garebel
03-22-2012, 16:27
I am referring to the posters who say they would have gone after the guy and given him what he deserved.

They were not talking about detaining him for the cops.

And, again, it's evident from the video that the guy on the phone is with the perp. So, now you are one on two. And you are armed. Surely your CCW class talked about not provoking a situation?

If the attack was in progress, then if course, that's different. But it is not. So, you have no legal recourse if it goes pear shaped.

If you carry a gun, then unfortunately, there are some avenues that just are not open to you. Besides, his ass ain't getting away when he is that toasted. Cops will get him 40 yards down the road.

I live in Texas, where the deadly force statutes are pretty liberal. You can even deploy it in defence of your property. Hell, you can deploy it defending your neighbours property. Even here though, if I went after the guy, then it turns out his buddy is with him and it escalates, I am not in great shape legally as I would have been the instigator.

Sucks, because he does need to be taken down and handed over to the cops, but not while I am packing. Not if there isn't any threat.




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I assume, from your postings quoting me earlier, that you are speaking of me here.
Please see above...my only posting concerning physical action against the guy. I never made any indication whatsoever that I would "chase him down and give him the beatdown he deserved".

"It is a shame that there was no one around to introduce that "tough guy" to a brachial stun, or some other delightful means to help him deal with his problems. " was a hypothetical, in the event that someone happening upon the ongoing attack was willing and qualified to engage in helping her.



I did make one subsequent posting to the effect that were I to witness the attack, he would not be allowed to just walk away as he did. I didn't say I would give him a "beatdown."
What I said would certainly not qualify as "vigilante justice"

There are quite a few posts here in this thread that mention "not while I am carrying".
In effect, those people are more or less disqualifying themselves from potentially engaging physically (without drawing your weapon) to help someone else, or possibly defend themselves, against a less than lethal attack, because of concerns of repercussions, but carrying in the event of "the big one"?

I would rather not carry if I walked around feeling that way.

ever heard of krav maga?

__________________

bug
03-22-2012, 16:54
When did I say anything about walking into a situation blindly?

This was my posting:
"There is considerable knowledge to be gleaned from the video.
Most learning points have already been brought to light.

It is a valuable learning tool, but, I must admit I find the video disturbing, to say the least.
It sickens me to see that girl elbowed in the face.
She paid a terrible price for the mistakes she and her friend made.

It is a shame that there was no one around to introduce that "tough guy" to a brachial stun, or some other delightful means to help him deal with his problems. "

I stand by my statement.

The "huffing and puffing" was after i admittedly became angered by some of the posts that claimed "She had it coming to her".

I still find those posts to be ignorant and, yes, they still piss me off.

If I truly felt as if my firearm was the only means by which I could protect myself, or a young lady who was getting attacked, I WOULD NOT carry a firearm.

I've had my ass kicked before, rest assured, but would that stop me from engaging that guy, or his friend, or both, to physically stop them from attacking her? Nope.
Would getting my ass kicked force me to draw my firearm?
Unless those two guys happen to have a lot more going on physically than what I see on the video, I don't see that happening.
Now, if they produce a weapon, that changes things.
__________________
What we do in life echoes in eternity

It was a hit and run they did not beat that girl (I don't like it any better than you the guy who hit her deserves some attention from the right guy for a couple of rounds) It was a hit and run like it or not the best thing to do at that point was to be a witness. AND HELP THE VICTIM.

I agree, stop them from attacking but if you get involved physically you run the risk of them escalating, if that happens and you have to shoot them then I do not know what happens then, I guess it would depend on your location and how the local police and the media react.

Now if they were beating her half to death I say stop them with force by all means but you better be right.

And like it or not The women choose to go back and confront him... from everything I can see in the video she was safe.
She made A very poor decision, and she got a elbow to the face for her trouble.. but she could have been badly beaten, raped or killed in a situation like this.

A few months ago A guy I work with comes in a tells me about an altercation his dad was in, he stopped a group of young people from beating a girl in the street.

They all turned on him including the victim all gang or drug related somehow. He was doing the right thing but he almost got his ass kicked..

What if the the the drunk guy was on a bender because he just found out the women who killed his kid got off with probation + time served.... and the women who killed the kid(texting and driving) was out celebrating getting off easy they cross paths.....

What happened on the video happens in front of you, but you don't know the back story and you shoot the guy or confront him and get into a fight.

I know it far fetched but weird stuff happens.

I think its best to stick with only get involved to defend your life or someone else. Bar fights don't count even when the guy deserves a beat down for hitting that girl.

slickt0mmy
03-22-2012, 16:54
I've had my ass kicked before, rest assured, but would that stop me from engaging that guy, or his friend, or both, to physically stop them from attacking her? Nope.
Would getting my ass kicked force me to draw my firearm?
Unless those two guys happen to have a lot more going on physically than what I see on the video, I don't see that happening.
Now, if they produce a weapon, that changes things.


I don't know about you, but I didn't see that elbow coming. Do you really think you could have run up and engaged the drunk and his friend BEFORE the elbow flew?

At what point in the video would you have engaged?

Who would you engage first?

With the girl already that close to the drunk, how are you going to get her to safety while fighting off two men?

You implied that if either of the men produced a weapon, you would use your own. Are you aware that now, having inserted yourself into a situation and been the one to escalate it to violence, you are the bad guy? How's that going to look in court?

The idea that you could have prevented this girl's attack is naive. Unless you plan on inserting yourself into every small squabble that COULD turn into a fight (which is a supremely bad idea for someone who is not a LEO) your chances of preventing anything are about zilch. And you've already stated that you would not chase the man down and give him some vigilante justice, so that pretty much leaves you with nothing but render aid to the wounded and be a good witness.

Deaf Smith
03-22-2012, 17:18
I am referring to the posters who say they would have gone after the guy and given him what he deserved.

They were not talking about detaining him for the cops.

And, again, it's evident from the video that the guy on the phone is with the perp. So, now you are one on two. And you are armed. Surely your CCW class talked about not provoking a situation?

If the attack was in progress, then if course, that's different. But it is not. So, you have no legal recourse if it goes pear shaped.

If you carry a gun, then unfortunately, there are some avenues that just are not open to you. Besides, his ass ain't getting away when he is that toasted. Cops will get him 40 yards down the road.

I live in Texas, where the deadly force statutes are pretty liberal. You can even deploy it in defence of your property. Hell, you can deploy it defending your neighbours property. Even here though, if I went after the guy, then it turns out his buddy is with him and it escalates, I am not in great shape legally as I would have been the instigator.

Sucks, because he does need to be taken down and handed over to the cops, but not while I am packing. Not if there isn't any threat.


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And Texas law says you can employ force, or deadly force to PROTECT A THIRD PARTY. And to stop a fleeing criminal.

But if one does decide to challenge the drunk, make sure you can handle yourself without having to draw a gun unless they employ deadly force.

Deaf

garebel
03-22-2012, 17:38
I don't know about you, but I didn't see that elbow coming. Do you really think you could have run up and engaged the drunk and his friend BEFORE the elbow flew?At what point in the video would you have engaged?
Who would you engage first?
With the girl already that close to the drunk, how are you going to get her to safety while fighting off two men?

You implied that if either of the men produced a weapon, you would use your own. Are you aware that now, having inserted yourself into a situation and been the one to escalate it to violence, you are the bad guy? How's that going to look in court?

The idea that you could have prevented this girl's attack is naive. Unless you plan on inserting yourself into every small squabble that COULD turn into a fight (which is a supremely bad idea for someone who is not a LEO) your chances of preventing anything are about zilch. And you've already stated that you would not chase the man down and give him some vigilante justice, so that pretty much leaves you with nothing but render aid to the wounded and be a good witness.

I'll answer your questions in order.

I wouldn't have engaged before the elbow flew....why would I?

I would have engaged as soon as I saw him strike her, and I would engage the guy who HIT her.

I disagree with your claim that I am "now the bad guy" for coming to the aid of a girl being attacked by at least one, and possibly two men.

I never claimed to be able to prevent her from being attacked.

I don't insert myself in "small squabbles". I mind my own business. if I witness a young girl get hit , then it becomes my business to help her.

Now, may I please offer you some advice?
You are one who seems so reluctant to help a girl who is being attacked that you come across as one hell of a wimp.

If carrying a firearm has produced the level of concern that would allow you to not help her, you should take some type of training for personal defense, and get your confidence level up. Depending on that pistol as your sole means of protection might end up costing you more than you know...

garebel
03-22-2012, 17:55
It was a hit and run they did not beat that girl (I don't like it any better than you the guy who hit her deserves some attention from the right guy for a couple of rounds) It was a hit and run like it or not the best thing to do at that point was to be a witness. AND HELP THE VICTIM.

I agree, stop them from attacking but if you get involved physically you run the risk of them escalating, if that happens and you have to shoot them then I do not know what happens then, I guess it would depend on your location and how the local police and the media react.

Now if they were beating her half to death I say stop them with force by all means but you better be right.
And like it or not The women choose to go back and confront him... from everything I can see in the video she was safe.
She made A very poor decision, and she got a elbow to the face for her trouble.. but she could have been badly beaten, raped or killed in a situation like this.

A few months ago A guy I work with comes in a tells me about an altercation his dad was in, he stopped a group of young people from beating a girl in the street.

They all turned on him including the victim all gang or drug related somehow. He was doing the right thing but he almost got his ass kicked..

What if the the the drunk guy was on a bender because he just found out the women who killed his kid got off with probation + time served.... and the women who killed the kid(texting and driving) was out celebrating getting off easy they cross paths.....

What happened on the video happens in front of you, but you don't know the back story and you shoot the guy or confront him and get into a fight.

I know it far fetched but weird stuff happens.

I think its best to stick with only get involved to defend your life or someone else. Bar fights don't count even when the guy deserves a beat down for hitting that girl.

So, I should ask them to stop attacking her?

If I decided to engage those guys, I would have made the determination that I was "right".

She was struck in the face. I would not have stood around to see what happened next.

What you choose to do, or not do, is your choice.
I hope you feel the same way if the young lady happens to be your loved one.

slickt0mmy
03-22-2012, 17:57
Did you not read your own quote? I will highlight it again so you don't miss it this time.

I've had my ass kicked before, rest assured, but would that stop me from engaging that guy, or his friend, or both, to physically stop them from attacking her? Nope.

Again....

physically stop them from attacking her

Unless you mean it another way (in which case, I suggest you reword it) I read that as "I see this situation escalating and I will physically stop them from attacking her before they have a chance." which would make you the aggressor in a not-yet-violent situation.

But even if you wait until the point he elbows her, once again, all you can do is render aid to the wounded because he walks away as soon as he hits her. You've already stated you wouldn't chase him down, so in order to engage him, you would have to be right next to the girl when it all happened. What are the odds of that?

I have no qualms helping a girl who is being attacked. Read that carefully. "being attacked." Not "was attacked". One punch and then walking away is "was attacked". At that point, the fight is over and I have no business starting it back up again. If that makes me a wimp, so be it.

One more thing. Acting like you know me, and trying to insult my level of training, confidence, or reasons for carrying makes you look awfully petty. How about we be adults here and discuss the video, rather than have an internet pissing contest? Mmk?

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 18:01
So, what's the takeaway?



Where do you begin? How about a short summary...People under the influence are unpredictable.

Spike52
03-22-2012, 18:04
subscribe

NMGlocker
03-22-2012, 18:14
I've had my ass kicked before, rest assured, but would that stop me from engaging that guy, or his friend, or both, to physically stop them from attacking her? Nope.
Exactly when would you have intervened in this situation?
The attack was over before anyone knew what happened.
Heck the drunk guy was 10' away before she hit the ground.
Are you going to chase him down the street?
Good luck turning that into a "defense of an innocent 3rd party" argument if you have to escalate to lethal.

NMGlocker
03-22-2012, 18:18
So, I should ask them to stop attacking her?

She was struck in the face. I would not have stood around to see what happened next.

The attack was a single elbow to the face then he walked away.
A classic "one punch".
You wouldn't have had time to intervene before it was over and he was no longer a threat.
How are you going to justify assaulting the guy after he's disengaged and is walking away? He's no longer threatening or attacking her.
In the eyes of the law the fight has ended.

garebel
03-22-2012, 18:20
Did you not read your own quote? I will highlight it again so you don't miss it this time.



Again....



Unless you mean it another way (in which case, I suggest you reword it) I read that as "I see this situation escalating and I will physically stop them from attacking her before they have a chance." which would make you the aggressor in a not-yet-violent situation.

But even if you wait until the point he elbows her, once again, all you can do is render aid to the wounded because he walks away as soon as he hits her. You've already stated you wouldn't chase him down, so in order to engage him, you would have to be right next to the girl when it all happened. What are the odds of that?I have no qualms helping a girl who is being attacked. Read that carefully. "being attacked." Not "was attacked". One punch and then walking away is "was attacked". At that point, the fight is over and I have no business starting it back up again. If that makes me a wimp, so be it.

One more thing. Acting like you know me, and trying to insult my level of training, confidence, or reasons for carrying makes you look awfully petty. How about we be adults here and discuss the video, rather than have an internet pissing contest? Mmk?

IF I SAW HER BEING ATTACKED, I WOULD PHYSICALLY ENGAGE ONE, OR BOTH, OF THOSE GUYS TO STOP THEM.
I WOULD NOT LET THE FACT THAT I WAS ARMED DETER ME FROM COMING TO HER DEFENSE, NOT FOR A SECOND.
WE ARE, INDEED , SPEAKING TO MY BEING "RIGHT NEXT TO HER WHEN IT HAPPENED", OR IF IT HAPPENED RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.

Is that clear enough?

Sorry that you were offended by my suggestion that you not rely on your handgun as your sole protection.
Your comments to me in your post led me to assume that you might.

bug
03-22-2012, 18:22
So, I should ask them to stop attacking her?

YES A nice STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING works sometimes.

What you choose to do, or not do, is your choice.
I hope you feel the same way if the young lady happens to be your loved one.


A young Lady (loved one) has been in a situation like this before. I was 14 and it took 4 grown adult men to hold me down so I did not get involved.

So lets explore that
They (the Uncles that held me down) knew that if I went over and beat him half to death(like he deserved) that not only he would go to jail so would I...

So letting you emotions get involved with this is a bad plan I understand why you do not like it but the only thing you could have done after the fact was detain the guy that hit her.... And if he started to resist or fight you have no back up you are not a cop what will you do??

I am betting you have no handcuffs. no tazer...
And even if you did do you know the rules for citizens arrest and the use of those items?
I know I don't.

Just a gun and fists.

The old saying when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

It sucks but to me the best thing to do is let him go and help and protect the victim.

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 18:37
Guys....I posted an incident that I was involved in some time ago. Long story, short...I entered a Target with my kids and saw a large man throwing a woman to the ground. I was unarmed and went after the guy. I got him 'restrained' and into a room near the entrance where security cuff him, which he was thankful for because of the choke hold he was in.

Here are some lessons I took away.

I was lucky he was not armed. Oddly enough, I was also lucky that I was not armed, since it would have added another risk factor.

Despite the crowd, absolutely NO ONE helped me even though the guy was much bigger than me....not even security - other than asking me to bring him into a room and then they cuffed him.

The woman turned out to be the store manager. He was a shoplifter that had just hit 2 other stores in the same plaza by walking out and intimidating the security. When it was done, the lady was thanking me over & over again. Then something odd happened...she said I needed to leave right away. Why? She didn't want me involved in the aftermath and at risk for any legal issues.

Not saying to do nothing. Not saying to intervene. What I am saying is that you need to be aware of the risks...even if you firmly believe that you are 100% in the right. If I had to do it again, I would have done it again.

slickt0mmy
03-22-2012, 18:39
IF I SAW HER BEING ATTACKED, I WOULD PHYSICALLY ENGAGE ONE, OR BOTH, OF THOSE GUYS TO STOP THEM.
I WOULD NOT LET THE FACT THAT I WAS ARMED DETER ME FROM COMING TO HER DEFENSE, NOT FOR A SECOND.
WE ARE, INDEED , SPEAKING TO MY BEING "RIGHT NEXT TO HER WHEN IT HAPPENED", OR IF IT HAPPENED RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.

Is that clear enough?


Well on that day, when the planets align and you find yourself standing about two feet away from a girl being attacked, I will applaud you for helping her.
Perhaps next time you should preface your entire argument with "If I were standing right next to her and could reach the man as he was attacking, I would have done _________" Because I (and I assume everyone else who is confused by your view) are watching the video, seeing that there is no one else within striking distance, and are assuming you're talking about it in that same situation. If your reply is based on the fact that you are standing right there when it all happens, you should say so.

ETA: If you DID say so in a previous post, I apologize. I must have missed it.

bug
03-22-2012, 18:46
Guys....I posted an incident that I was involved in some time ago. Long story, short...I entered a Target with my kids and saw a large man throwing a woman to the ground. I was unarmed and went after the guy. I got him 'restrained' and into a room near the entrance where security cuff him, which he was thankful for because of the choke hold he was in.

Here are some lessons I took away.

I was lucky he was not armed. Oddly enough, I was also lucky that I was not armed, since it would have added another risk factor.

Despite the crowd, absolutely NO ONE helped me even though the guy was much bigger than me....not even security - other than asking me to bring him into a room and then they cuffed him.

The woman turned out to be the store manager. He was a shoplifter that had just hit 2 other stores in the same plaza by walking out and intimidating the security. When it was done, the lady was thanking me over & over again. Then something odd happened...she said I needed to leave right away. Why? She didn't want me involved in the aftermath and at risk for any legal issues.

Not saying to do nothing. Not saying to intervene. What I am saying is that you need to be aware of the risks...even if you firmly believe that you are 100% in the right. If I had to do it again, I would have done it again.

Very Interesting thanks for the info.

Did you talk to cops or did you just leave like she asked?

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 18:52
Very Interesting thanks for the info.

Did you talk to cops or did you just leave like she asked?

I offered my name and info, and she told me that she didn't want it and that I needed to leave. The police arrived while I was at the store next to Target to meet my wife (that's where she was during the incident). When we came back out, the police were putting the guy in their car. I never spoke to them and never left my name...although I offered to the lady immediately after he was cuffed.

It was initially very odd to me that she didn't want my name and wanted me to leave...yet she kept thanking me over & over again.

bug
03-22-2012, 18:58
Very strange indeed.

but good info. What state do you live in?

I can see 2 separate outcomes depending on the place it happened

California vs Texas or South Dakota

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 19:02
Very strange indeed.

but good info. What state do you live in?

I can see 2 separate outcomes depending on the place it happened

California vs Texas or South Dakota

The incident happened in GA

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 19:09
The incident happened 6 yrs ago...so I apologize that I don't recall all the details. I found my write up on the incident (originally on another forum). She never actually said "leave", but "she was obviously ushering me to be on my way". She also mentioned something about me being on video camera...but I had no idea what she was trying to say.

bug
03-22-2012, 19:26
A large grocery store chain had a incident a while back here near my home in Ohio.

A group of employees stopped a man who was shop lifting and they ended up killing him on accident (they sat on him while waiting for police) I will have to look it up but I think they prosecuted them for manslaughter.

Maybe she was afraid they would allow him to sue you or an assault charge who knows. I say you did good. Everyone walked away unhurt.

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 19:30
A large grocery store chain had a incident a while back here near my home in Ohio.

A group of employees stopped a man who was shop lifting and they ended up killing him on accident (they sat on him while waiting for police) I will have to look it up but I think they prosecuted them for manslaughter.

Maybe she was afraid they would allow him to sue you or an assault charge who knows. I say you did good. Everyone walked away unhurt.

The general concensus when I originally posted this was similar...she was concerned that he might try & sue me. She didn't need me to prove that he committed a crime there.

fuzzy03cls
03-23-2012, 07:56
Some just don't get it, I'm out....

Fragman
03-23-2012, 12:14
And Texas law says you can employ force, or deadly force to PROTECT A THIRD PARTY. And to stop a fleeing criminal.

But if one does decide to challenge the drunk, make sure you can handle yourself without having to draw a gun unless they employ deadly force.

Deaf

we may actually be on the same page then.

Fragman
03-23-2012, 12:32
There are quite a few posts here in this thread that mention "not while I am carrying".
In effect, those people are more or less disqualifying themselves from potentially engaging physically (without drawing your weapon) to help someone else, or possibly defend themselves, against a less than lethal attack, because of concerns of repercussions, but carrying in the event of "the big one"?

I would rather not carry if I walked around feeling that way.

ever heard of krav maga?

__________________

But we are not talking about protecting anyone in thic scenario, are we? the danger is passed. What everyone has been trying to say, and what you conveniently continue to stidestep, is the fact that the attack is OVER.

Most have also said, me included, that if the attack was still underway, then yes, we would intervene.

But, to try and act as cop AFTER the fact, when in fact, if you really give a crap about helping the girl, you should be acting as paramedic.

And yes, I have heard of Krav Maga. it's my favorite curry. :)

Seriously though, yes, I have heard of it. the perp may have too. Pretty fast and effecitve elbow strike, while staggering drunk too.

How can you say that, in this case, the best course of action is not in fact to help the victim who may have a serious injury that her friend may not know how to treat, but rather the best course of action is to arrest, detain or whatever, the perp?

How does the latter help the girl at all?

And, again, surely when you took your course, you were told about not initiating physical encounters, even if it makes people think you are a wuss?

Again, not talking about coming across an attack that is actully ongoing, right there, right now. Talking about initiating a new encounter.

garebel
03-23-2012, 17:16
But we are not talking about protecting anyone in thic scenario, are we? the danger is passed. What everyone has been trying to say, and what you conveniently continue to stidestep, is the fact that the attack is OVER.

Most have also said, me included, that if the attack was still underway, then yes, we would intervene.

But, to try and act as cop AFTER the fact, when in fact, if you really give a crap about helping the girl, you should be acting as paramedic.

And yes, I have heard of Krav Maga. it's my favorite curry. :)

Seriously though, yes, I have heard of it. the perp may have too. Pretty fast and effecitve elbow strike, while staggering drunk too.

How can you say that, in this case, the best course of action is not in fact to help the victim who may have a serious injury that her friend may not know how to treat, but rather the best course of action is to arrest, detain or whatever, the perp?

How does the latter help the girl at all?

And, again, surely when you took your course, you were told about not initiating physical encounters, even if it makes people think you are a wuss?

Again, not talking about coming across an attack that is actully ongoing, right there, right now. Talking about initiating a new encounter.

That attack may be over. Judging by his actions, that we all witnessed, would I be wrong to assume that the next "easy target" that those guys encounter down the street could end up hurt even worse?
I am not a cop, nor do I have any desire to appear or act like a cop. Trying to stop that guy from possibly harming another person by physically detaining them until an actual cop can get there does not make me a cop.
In my first posting, I said it was too bad that someone was not there, as the attack was ongoing, that could administer a brachial stun, or something similar, to drop him.
If I happened upon the ongoing attack, I would, most likely, attack him immediately to stop him.
Of course, after the attack was over, my concern for the victim's condtition would be my first priority, but as I am not a paramedic, I could only make sure, as best I could, that she was stable, and not in shock.
If I could quickly ascertain that she was, in fact, stable, I truly believe that I would then do my best to stop and detain the guy, in a non physical manner, if possible.
If he, or his friend, or both, decided to fight instead, I would use the level of force that matched their level of force, and see what happened.
I certainly would not approach the guy(s) with my first and foremost intention being to beat them, only stop and detain the one responsible for the attack.
BTW, all of my actions, other than rendering aid, would be in response, of course, to an attack that I had actuallly witnessed myself, and not happened upon.
I never intended for my remarks to come across as vigilante justice, but rather simply as a citizen who would be willing to intervene and possibly stop/detain that guy, or guys.

We all have our own opinions as to what we do in this case, and we can agree to disagree.
For my part, I feel the need to apologize to slickt0mmy for making a disparaging comment to him about his training and confidence. I am truly sorry for saying that.
Also, you agreed with me about the comments made along the lines of "she got what she was asking for", and I appreciate your saying that.

NMGlocker
03-23-2012, 17:21
I would then do my best to stop and detain the guy, in a non physical manner, if possible.
I suggest you read the Zimmerman/Martin thread a few times and replace Zimmerman with Garabel...

garebel
03-23-2012, 18:01
I suggest you read the Zimmerman/Martin thread a few times and replace Zimmerman with Garabel...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, at least to my knowledge, Zimmerman did not witness Martin commit any crime.

In this thread, we are discussing what we would do, or not do, upon witnessing firsthand the attack depicted on the video.

If you are using that thread to draw upon any possible similarity of a citizen being overcome after engaging in trying to detain someone, I would ask you to read all of my posts and see if there is ever any mention of my drawing my (concealed) weapon.
I'll save you the trouble...there is, in fact, one post that I stated "if he (they) produce a weapon, that changes things."

I also noted in that posting that I have had my ass kicked before.
I assure you, it would take more than that for me to shoot someone.
However, if he (they) produced a weapon, I would certainly not have any reservation about drawing mine.
Remember, we are not talking about someone who followed, pursued an individual because he "looked suspicious", not in this thread.
I made it clear that my actions would have been the result of SEEING that guy attack that girl.

NMGlocker
03-23-2012, 19:11
You're posts make you out to be a white knight just like Zimmerman.
Hopefully you won't make the rest of us look bad WHEN you screw up.

HKLovingIT
03-23-2012, 19:54
Food for thought.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

bug
03-23-2012, 19:55
That attack may be over. Judging by his actions, that we all witnessed, would I be wrong to assume that the next "easy target" that those guys encounter down the street could end up hurt even worse?
I am not a cop, nor do I have any desire to appear or act like a cop. Trying to stop that guy from possibly harming another person by physically detaining them until an actual cop can get there does not make me a cop.
In my first posting, I said it was too bad that someone was not there, as the attack was ongoing, that could administer a brachial stun, or something similar, to drop him.
If I happened upon the ongoing attack, I would, most likely, attack him immediately to stop him.
Of course, after the attack was over, my concern for the victim's condtition would be my first priority, but as I am not a paramedic, I could only make sure, as best I could, that she was stable, and not in shock.
If I could quickly ascertain that she was, in fact, stable, I truly believe that I would then do my best to stop and detain the guy, in a non physical manner, if possible.
If he, or his friend, or both, decided to fight instead, I would use the level of force that matched their level of force, and see what happened.
I certainly would not approach the guy(s) with my first and foremost intention being to beat them, only stop and detain the one responsible for the attack.
BTW, all of my actions, other than rendering aid, would be in response, of course, to an attack that I had actuallly witnessed myself, and not happened upon.
I never intended for my remarks to come across as vigilante justice, but rather simply as a citizen who would be willing to intervene and possibly stop/detain that guy, or guys.

We all have our own opinions as to what we do in this case, and we can agree to disagree.
For my part, I feel the need to apologize to slickt0mmy for making a disparaging comment to him about his training and confidence. I am truly sorry for saying that.
Also, you agreed with me about the comments made along the lines of "she got what she was asking for", and I appreciate your saying that.

I don't think any of us think you are a vigilante or out for such justice we are just thinking out loud.
There is no perfect answer sometimes you could be right sometimes I could be right, it is what it is.

None of us I believe/or think she deserved it, but I think most of us are not surprised at the outcome.

I seen a few fights in my time and in all honesty I have never seen the brachial stun as you call it work in real life. Now I am not saying it could not work just that it usually does not.

fights just don't go that way most of the time with drunks. if you hit a drunk hard enough with something like that you stand at least a ok chance of killing him by damaging his wind pipe.
there drunk so there pain receptors don't work as well, same with folks on drugs ask any cop who has had to deal with someone on PCP.

And I can tell you for sure that confronting 2 drunk guys who can fight is a gigantic mistake. not all drunk folks become bumbling dip-wads some retain a lot of there coordination and lose there ability to feel as much pain.

If you decide to take on someone in a situation like this I personally would not match there level of force I would go all out and make sure it was over as fast as possible, fighting for even a few minutes at full go is more than most folks can handle for very long...
If you get tired then you may end up making mistakes, and if they get the upper hand then you may only be left with one option and that would be your weapon.... and then you may have a lot more to worry about than the guy who got away.

Then You may have to explain to the officer why you escalated instead of just letting the now DEAD guy go.

garebel
03-23-2012, 20:01
You're posts make you out to be a white knight just like Zimmerman.
Hopefully you won't make the rest of us look bad WHEN you screw up.

Did you even read my last post?

This thread has nothing in common with Zimmerman/Martin.
I tried to respectfully point that out in my post to you.

The thread you continue to reference concerns a shooting that, alledgedly, happened when an individual pursued someone and, alledgedly, tried to detain them for no other reason than the fact that the person looked "suspicious".
I will say again, for your benefit, that my postings in THIS thread concern what I would do UPON SEEING THE YOUNG WOMAN ATTACKED WITH MY OWN EYES.

I realize that I am in the minority here, evidently.
I can certainly live with that.
There is no need for you to accuse me of being a "white knight". "vigilante", or anything else for stating what I would do.

I have already offered an apology to another poster in this thread for saying something which, upon later reflection, I regretted posting to him. I'm cool with us just having our differing opinions about what we would do, and not labeling each other....okay?

garebel
03-23-2012, 20:20
I don't think any of us think you are a vigilante or out for such justice we are just thinking out loud.
There is no perfect answer sometimes you could be right sometimes I could be right, it is what it is.

None of us I believe/or think she deserved it, but I think most of us are not surprised at the outcome.

I seen a few fights in my time and in all honesty I have never seen the brachial stun as you call it work in real life. Now I am not saying it could not work just that it usually does not.

fights just don't go that way most of the time with drunks. if you hit a drunk hard enough with something like that you stand at least a ok chance of killing him by damaging his wind pipe.
there drunk so there pain receptors don't work as well, same with folks on drugs ask any cop who has had to deal with someone on PCP.

And I can tell you for sure that confronting 2 drunk guys who can fight is a gigantic mistake. not all drunk folks become bumbling dip-wads some retain a lot of there coordination and lose there ability to feel as much pain.

If you decide to take on someone in a situation like this I personally would not match there level of force I would go all out and make sure it was over as fast as possible, fighting for even a few minutes at full go is more than most folks can handle for very long...
If you get tired then you may end up making mistakes, and if they get the upper hand then you may only be left with one option and that would be your weapon.... and then you may have a lot more to worry about than the guy who got away.

Then You may have to explain to the officer why you escalated instead of just letting the now DEAD guy go.

First, and most important.
You are one of the guys that I was kinda crappy to in my response to your post. I'm sorry for that, really.


The brachial stun is actually very effective as an immediate "fight-stopper", BUT, if administered incorrectly, can be lethal.
I would never advocate, or even remotely suggest, that anyone even think of using that unless they had received the proper training beforehand.
I mentioned it in my very first post in this thread only because it is well known in close combat circles.

Heck, we all hope we never see anything like that girl getting attacked. Hopefully, we never will.
You make some good points, and I'm sure that you would handle it the best you could if something like that ever did happen. I hope I would too.:cool:

bug
03-23-2012, 20:41
First, and most important.
You are one of the guys that I was kinda crappy to in my response to your post. I'm sorry for that, really.


The brachial stun is actually very effective as an immediate "fight-stopper", BUT, if administered incorrectly, can be lethal.
I would never advocate, or even remotely suggest, that anyone even think of using that unless they had received the proper training beforehand.
I mentioned it in my very first post in this thread only because it is well known in close combat circles.

Heck, we all hope we never see anything like that girl getting attacked. Hopefully, we never will.
You make some good points, and I'm sure that you would handle it the best you could if something like that ever did happen. I hope I would too.:cool:

I Was not offended I am a fat ass so I have thick skin.:supergrin:

I did not mean to suggest you were advocating the use of this move I was just giving A personal observation of what I have seen.
I know one guy who could probably make that move work every-time and his reason for not using it is you are taking a chance on killing them.
And we all don't want that on our conscience.

He is big on the eyes you cant fight what you cant see.....
A knuckle to eye works wonders, and is 99% of the time not permanent and has a very low risk of killing anyone.

For women we are big on teaching to hit the Balls, eyes, nose for a fast and quick way out of a attack. that is if you let you guard down.

I would like to hear others opinions on this as well. what do you practice?
what do you train to do in the event that a handgun is not the correct answer?

garebel
03-23-2012, 20:48
Food for thought.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

Good article.
Brings back memories of a similar case in which , although she didn't try loading up a rifle, the wife (a very high ranking administrator in the Atlanta area education system) got really upset when she found out that her husband (even higher ranking executive in Atlanta businesscommunity) was going to jail, despite her attempts to drop charges against him for beating her up.
She filed a complaint and made a big stink against the officer (my brother, BTW) that really didn't make much headway once his supervisor talked to him.

Six months later, she was in DeKalb Medical Center, for what was to be the beginning of having her face put back together, after the husband decided to have another go at her.

I have, by far, been the most vocal about intervening to try and stop/detain the guy shown hitting the girl, without drawing my (concealed) weapon.
Not many agree with me....I can live with that.
I've discussed this thread with friends, as well as my brother, who have been in law enforcement for twenty five to thirty years, and I have not changed my opinion afterwards, regarding what I would do.

At the end of the day, we all hope and pray that we would do the best that we could, were we to be faced with such a decision in real life. I don't begrudge anyone here for what they would do or not do.

slickt0mmy
03-24-2012, 00:58
I think I've said my peace in this thread but I'll keep an eye on it for further developments. However, I just wanted to say that even if we disagree on how to respond to the situation, I'm proud to be part of a group of people who WOULD respond in some way or another. There are too many people out there who wouldn't attempt to help the woman at all. And whether you want to engage the attacker or simply render whatever aid you can to the wounded, at least you're doing SOMETHING, which is more than I believe a majority of our population can say.

And specifically to garebel, I apologize for any confusion I had about your original statements that led to any unneeded debate. What I said above applies to you as well. :wavey:

garebel
03-24-2012, 05:35
I think I've said my peace in this thread but I'll keep an eye on it for further developments. However, I just wanted to say that even if we disagree on how to respond to the situation, I'm proud to be part of a group of people who WOULD respond in some way or another. There are too many people out there who wouldn't attempt to help the woman at all. And whether you want to engage the attacker or simply render whatever aid you can to the wounded, at least you're doing SOMETHING, which is more than I believe a majority of our population can say.

And specifically to garebel, I apologize for any confusion I had about your original statements that led to any unneeded debate. What I said above applies to you as well. :wavey:

Thanks man. I couldn't agree more with you.
I don't know if you saw my apology to you in my earlier post (#102), but I want to make sure you know that I'm truly sorry for the stupid remarks I made to you earlier.

Fragman
03-24-2012, 08:38
I think it's also worth pointing out, especially as he had been slammed pretty hard, that despite the differences in response, it's clear that garabel's intentions are purely to do the right thing.

And, just as a twist, if it had been a purse snatcher, and the victim had been a little old lady, would we have pursued the perp then?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HKLovingIT
03-24-2012, 09:54
Here's another little twist.

Start the video, pause it at: 00:20 seconds.

Now clear your mind.

Start the video. Pretend you just walked out of a restaurant and you're standing on the sidewalk. All you have seen of this incident is the two of them in a verbal altercation and then he hits her.

You did not see the girls walk up the street, nor did you see him spit or whatever he was doing. Does that change how you feel about possibly getting involved? Remember, you do not know the girls were walking along and got accosted by this guy to start with.

I'm not asking if him hitting her is wrong. It is. I'm asking that if you came upon this at 00:20 and that's all you saw, would that change your opinion about how you were willing to get involved in this or to engage with the guy?

concretefuzzynuts
03-24-2012, 11:16
My first thought was, you should know when to mind your own business. Sometimes, you are better off calling the police and reporting the situation instead of taking matters into your own hands. They are trained for these situations.

My second thought was, never allow a stranger to get that close to you. You are putting yourself in jeopardy when you are within armís reach of a stranger. I donít like it when people invade my personal space. As my personal rule, I will usually try to back up from a person who gets too close to me. After doing this twice with the same person, I have no problem asking them politely to stop getting so close to me.




I am not a professional anything. I am just a guy that tries to keep a little situational awareness. I believe our personal safety is our own responsibility.

I agree totally. I keep strangers and those I don't know well at arms length. I've had people look at me weird when I back away or tell them flat out they're in my space, but I don't care. It's MY comfort zone. Once someone is close enough they can wrap you up pretty quick.

1911ES
03-25-2012, 08:03
He is just another :horse::moonie: in our society today.

BigLaw
03-25-2012, 19:21
What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?


Nothing, you've already told her twice.