Is it safe to decock the hammer on a loaded gun? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Z71bill
03-16-2012, 09:14
Is it safe to decock the hammer on a loaded gun?

Obviously I am not asking about a gun with a manual decocker -


But a typical revolver - 1911 - CZ97B

My S&W revolver has some sort of hammer block - if you release the trigger before the hammer drops - the manual even tells you how to decock the hammer.

My S&W 1911 manual says

WARNING: NEVER ATTEMPT TO CARRY YOUR PISTOL
WITH THE HAMMER DOWN ON A LIVE CARTRIDGE.
THIS WOULD REQUIRE YOU TO DECOCK THE PISTOL
WITH A LIVE ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. DECOCKING THE
HAMMER OVER A LIVE ROUND SHOULD NEVER BE
ATTEMPTED. TO DO SO COULD RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY
OR DEATH TO YOU OR OTHERS


Not sure why the difference between a 1911 and a revolver?


When I am at the range - I will sometime decock a loaded gun - I can have the gun pointed down range - so if it did fire - no big deal - the round will go into the berm -

I don't ever decocking a loaded gun - while inside my home -

eracer
03-16-2012, 09:16
The 1911 does not have a decocker. They used the wrong word, and are advising against manually lowering the hammer with a round in the chamber.

It is perfectly safe to use a decocker (like those found on S&W pistols) with a live round in the chamber.

Creatism
03-16-2012, 09:21
On the 1911 do not carry hammer down on live round. It is not a matter if it is a matter of when you mess up and have a ND!
I have a hole in my wall from doing just that. Revolvers I don't know about. But very bad idea with the 1911!


Typed from my iPhone.

Rumbler_G20
03-16-2012, 09:26
There are two types of 1911s.

There is the pre brain dead 1911's and the post brain dead 1911's.

Starting with the 80 Series Colt sold out to the "guns shouldn't be dangerous" crowd and with one exception (reintroduction of a limited run of 70 series pistols) still has not climbed back out of the toilet.

70 Series and earlier 1911's should most certainly NOT have the hammer lowered on a live round.

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 09:35
What good is a DA/SA pistol if I can't carry it hammer down?

Do you have the gun loaded - round in chamber - but hammer down - if you need to put the gun into service quickly - just pull the trigger.


I am thinking CZ now - the CZ97B model does not have a manual decocker - so how would I get to the hammer down on a live round?

The manual says nothing about doing it.

TN.Frank
03-16-2012, 09:37
Series 70 is perfectly safe to have the hammer lowered with a round in the chamber, it's called Condition 2. The firing pin is actually shorter then the channel that it rides in so even with the hammer pushing on the back of the pin it'll still not contact the primer. It'll only hit the primer when the hammer hits it hard enough to drive it forward and it overcomes the firing pin spring tension.
I did have a Star 9mm that had a longer firing pin so that if you put the hammer down on the firing pin it would actually protrude into the primer, that was not a safe gun to carry with the hammer down but a 1911a1 is perfectly safe.
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

SigFTW
03-16-2012, 09:42
That is a practices I don't do. You run the risk of a ND, it only takes one slip of the finger. I always unload before decoking the hammer on my 1911.

Salmoneye
03-16-2012, 09:45
Obviously I am not asking about a gun with a manual decocker -


But a typical revolver - 1911 - CZ97B

Neither are 'revolvers' at all, let alone 'typical'...

Adam5
03-16-2012, 09:49
I am thinking CZ now - the CZ97B model does not have a manual decocker - so how would I get to the hammer down on a live round?

Why not carry it cocked and locked?

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 09:51
Neither are 'revolvers' at all, let alone 'typical'...

Not sure what you are saying -

I was trying to ask the same question (can I safely decock the hammer) on each of these 3 different guns -

1. A revolver -

2. A 1911

3. A DA/SA pistol without a manual decocker like the CZ97B

The owners manual tells me how to decock the hammer on my model 63 S&W

But the owners manuakl on my S&W 1911 says - NEVER decock on a loaded round.

The the CZ97 manual says nothing about decocking the hammer.

SigFTW
03-16-2012, 09:53
Why not carry it cocked and locked?

:agree:Exactly.

If you are worried about carrying with one in the chamber and don't want the hammer cocked. Then look at SA/DA with a decocker. There are lots of options.

SigFTW
03-16-2012, 09:56
1. A revolver - No

2. A 1911, No

3. A DA/SA pistol without a manual decocker like the CZ97B, No


It is not a good practices to decock a loaded gun.

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 09:58
Why not carry it cocked and locked?


I would carry my 1911 cocked and locked - it is SA only - but I almost never CC it.

What is the purpose of DA part of a DA/SA pistol - if you never plan to carry hammer down?

--

I am use to carrying a Glock type gun - no manual safety - I just draw from the holster and pull the trigger -

I was thinking - if I got a gun like the CZ97B I would just keep it hammer down - safety off - round in the chamber - and it would be "just as safe" as my G19.

Plus - I don't need to change my normal routine - no safety to mess with.

I could just be confused and mixed up - that is why I am asking.

Salmoneye
03-16-2012, 10:02
Not sure what you are saying -

I was trying to ask is the same question (can I safely decock the hammer) one each of these 3 different guns -

1. A revolver -

2. A 1911

3. A DA/SA pistol without a manual decocker like the CZ97B

The owners manual tells me how to decock the hammer on my model 63 S&W

But the owners manuakl on my S&W 1911 says - NEVER decock on a loaded round.

The the CZ97 manual says nothing about decocking the hammer.

Your writing style is confusing at best...

To answer your question, you can decock anything you want...

But you need to be aware of each firearm's mechanisms, and idiosyncrasies...

For a firearm that distinctly advises against lowering on a loaded chamber, eject the magazine, and rack the slide...

Or, as others have suggested, carry cocked and locked...

taurn88
03-16-2012, 10:03
Since you are used to Glocks, just keep it simple and get a CZ97 BD with a decocker.

SigFTW
03-16-2012, 10:06
Since you are used to Glocks, just keep it simple and get a CZ97 BD with a decocker.

:agree:An even better option.

1gewehr
03-16-2012, 10:06
Even if you have a decocker, you should hold the hammer as you de-cock the weapon slowly. Less stress on the parts, and less chance of breaking something.

Many pistols are perfectly safe to carry with the hammer down on a live round. It is your responsibility to know your own weapon. It's easy enough to check. Put a piece of tape over the base of a fired cartridge case. Chamber it. Lower the hammer. Manually push the hammer as far forward as it will go. Eject the case. If the tape has a hole or dimple, don't ever lower the hammer with a live round in the chamber or cylinder.

Rustin
03-16-2012, 10:35
When concerning a 1911, friends don't let friends carry in condition 2. It is an ND waiting to happen. Just carry condition 1 or condition 3. They are both acceptable and safe. You say that you do it on the range and don't worry about an ND? Think of whats happening when a semi automatic gun fires. The slide jars back with a hell of a punch. If your thumb was in it's path it would certainly be broken. DON'T DO IT! I don't understand where condition 2 even came from, it's certainly ignorant.

P.S if you really want to decock a gun, get a DOUBLE ACTION gun such as the Sig p226 or an HK, FN, Beretta 92, or a CZ-75. If you want to carry a SINGLE ACION firearm, a decocking will eventually cause an ND.

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 11:30
When concerning a 1911, friends don't let friends carry in condition 2. It is an ND waiting to happen. Just carry condition 1 or condition 3. They are both acceptable and safe. You say that you do it on the range and don't worry about an ND? Think of whats happening when a semi automatic gun fires. The slide jars back with a hell of a punch. If your thumb was in it's path it would certainly be broken. DON'T DO IT! I don't understand where condition 2 even came from, it's certainly ignorant.

P.S if you really want to decock a gun, get a DOUBLE ACTION gun such as the Sig p226 or an HK, FN, Beretta 92, or a CZ-75. If you want to carry a SINGLE ACION firearm, a decocking will eventually cause an ND.

Good point about decocking a semi auto - will not be doing that again -

The only real reason for the DA capability on a DA/SA pistol would be to give you two strike capability?

So if you had a hard primer and the round didn't fire the first time you pull the trigger you could just try again.


I try my best to error on the side of safety. Better to ask now VS have a ND.

elsolo
03-16-2012, 11:31
Yes, it is safe to decock a CZ97B with one in the chamber.
Use two hands, don't thumb it down like seen in movies.

USPSA and IPSC require it during "load and make ready" for production division, the sport takes safety very seriously and has a track record to back it up.

elsolo
03-16-2012, 11:38
The the CZ97 manual says nothing about decocking the hammer.

Page 20 of the 75b manual
http://www.cz-usa.com/assets/product_downloads/CZ_75.pdf

Page 20 of the 97b manual, under "engaging the safety mode"
http://www.cz-usa.com/assets/product_downloads/CZ_97.pdf

Rumbler_G20
03-16-2012, 11:40
Series 70 is perfectly safe to have the hammer lowered with a round in the chamber, it's called Condition 2. The firing pin is actually shorter then the channel that it rides in so even with the hammer pushing on the back of the pin it'll still not contact the primer. It'll only hit the primer when the hammer hits it hard enough to drive it forward and it overcomes the firing pin spring tension.
I did have a Star 9mm that had a longer firing pin so that if you put the hammer down on the firing pin it would actually protrude into the primer, that was not a safe gun to carry with the hammer down but a 1911a1 is perfectly safe.
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm



Well, OK. But lets be perfectly clear: There is not even one single expert who has lived in the last 100 years that will agree with you. Zip. Zero. Nada.:dunno:

Cobra64
03-16-2012, 11:53
What good is a DA/SA pistol if I can't carry it hammer down?

Do you have the gun loaded - round in chamber - but hammer down - if you need to put the gun into service quickly - just pull the trigger.


I am thinking CZ now - the CZ97B model does not have a manual decocker - so how would I get to the hammer down on a live round?

The manual says nothing about doing it.

All my DA/SA Sigs are designed to carry hammer down on a hot chamber.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P1000554-PICASSA.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P229/P229RIG1.jpg




That's why they're fitted with this de-cocker thingy:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P220/P1010425.jpg

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 12:02
Page 20 of the 97b manual, under "engaging the safety mode"
http://www.cz-usa.com/assets/product_downloads/CZ_97.pdf

I missed that part - on page 20 - thanks

But the owners manual does seem to make it clear it is risky to decock the gun.

TN.Frank
03-16-2012, 12:03
Well, OK. But lets be perfectly clear: There is not even one single expert who has lived in the last 100 years that will agree with you. Zip. Zero. Nada.:dunno:

Don't really care. I've owned 1911a1's off and on for over 30 years and I don't see the big deal of holding the hammer between your left thumb and forefinger(NOT the thumb on your shooting hand) and letting the hammer down easily by pulling the trigger while keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I've done it hundreds of times without a single ND. There's no way in heck that the hammer can slip when you've got it between two fingers but I'm sure there are some butter fingers out there that could have an empty gun go off but it's not a problem for me, never has been, never will be.
Also, I don't want to store my loaded 1911a1 in a "Cocked n' Locked" condition, much rather have it in Condition 2(if it wasn't safe then why is there even a Condition 2?) so all I need to do is pick up the gun and cock the hammer, slip on the safety and then go check what made the "bump in the night".
You store your guns the way you want too and I'll store mine the way I want too and we'll both be happy. :whistling:

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 12:04
All my DA/SA Sigs are designed to carry hammer down on a hot chamber.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P1000554-PICASSA.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P229/P229RIG1.jpg




That's why they're fitted with this de-cocker thingy:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P220/P1010425.jpg

I was talking about a semi auto pistol without a decocker.

Cobra64
03-16-2012, 12:04
It is not a good practices to decock a loaded gun.

Really? Perhaps a revolver is not in your firearms lifestyle unless you decock it by firing it into a bucket of sand.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1030803.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1030812.jpg








http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1020141.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/CONFUSED.jpg

How do I decock this thing?

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 12:18
Really? Perhaps a revolver is not in your firearms lifestyle unless you decock it by firing it into a bucket of sand.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1030803.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1030812.jpg








http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1020141.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/CONFUSED.jpg

How do I decock this thing?

Good point - my S&W revolver has two choices when it is cocked -

fire it - decock it


I should have left revolvers out of the thread - all they have done is make it more confusing.

elsolo
03-16-2012, 12:20
I missed that part - on page 20 - thanks

But the owners manual does seem to make it clear it is risky to decock the gun.

It is the same level of risk as chambering the first round, maybe even less.

I have seen multiple AD's during the loading process, none during decocking, not that it proves anything.

Manipulating the controls on a loaded firearm has an inherent risk of human and mechanical failure, that's why "point gun in a safe direction" is in bold type for: loading, unloading, engaging the safety, disengaging the safety, and decocking procedures.

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 12:25
It is the same level of risk as chambering the first round, maybe even less.

I have seen multiple AD's during the loading process, none during decocking, not that it proves anything.

Manipulating the controls on a loaded firearm has an inherent risk of human and mechanical failure, that's why "point gun in a safe direction" is in bold type for both the loading and decocking procedures.

"I have seen multiple AD's during the loading process"

What caused the ND?

Finger on the trigger?

Malfunction of gun?

TN.Frank
03-16-2012, 12:29
Go
I should have left revolvers out of the thread - all they have done is make it more confusing.

Don't see where it makes any difference. If your thumb/fingers slip off of the hammer on a revolver it'll go off just like with a semi. Main rule of Thumb(pun intended) is to POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION then hold the hammer between your non-shooting hand thumb and forefinger(in front of the hammer, not behind it, man I wish I had a pic so you could see what I'm talking about) and safely and slowly lower the hammer. Done it a thousand times, NEVER had an ND.

Cobra64
03-16-2012, 12:39
Good point about decocking a semi auto - will not be doing that again -

The only real reason for the DA capability on a DA/SA pistol would be to give you two strike capability?

So if you had a hard primer and the round didn't fire the first time you pull the trigger you could just try again.


I try my best to error on the side of safety. Better to ask now VS have a ND.

I disagree. A DA/SA pistol is considered safer-er with a long-er stroke 10# trigger pull. This is one reason why the US Army almost considered the DA/SA Sig P226 as their combat issue sidearm.

All of my teach firearms instructors teach "tap-rack-bang."

Example:
Pistol Malfunction Clearance - YouTube

elsolo
03-16-2012, 12:49
"I have seen multiple AD's during the loading process"

What caused the ND?

Finger on the trigger?

Malfunction of gun?

Broken gun, modified gun, dirty gun, high primer, operator error.

It has always been during the "load and make ready" at pistol matches. Figuring out the cause is an exercise in eliminating possible causes.



Say a match has 100 shooters, six stages, that's six hundred times "load and make ready" occurs on any given Saturday or Sunday. I used to shoot 4-6 matches a month, so we'll say 3000 a month, for ten years, that's 360,000 loading sequences I have been present for. (everybody hears about it when somebody DQ's) Out of those I have seen about half a dozen AD's during the loading sequence. That makes it roughly 1:50,000 among experienced shooters, many using modified guns, many with dirty guns. Not a common malfunction, but always a big surprise to the guy holding the pistol.

SigFTW
03-16-2012, 13:05
Really? Perhaps a revolver is not in your firearms lifestyle unless you decock it by firing it into a bucket of sand.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/CONFUSED.jpg

How do I decock this thing?


:faint:Because I don't cock my SA Rugers unless to fire. I forgot about having to decock to unload.

HAMMERHEAD
03-16-2012, 13:48
I de-cock my CZ 75B to the half cock notch and my Ruger single action to the hammer full down position without worry.
If you own a revolver long enough, there will come a time when you'll want to de-cock, may as well practice at the range where you can keep the gun in a safe direction.

TN.Frank
03-16-2012, 14:17
I posted this question over on a 1911a1 forum and most of the guys there either keep their 1911a1 in Condition 1 or totally empty. Looks like when my gun is in the drawer it'll be Condition 3 from here on out(since I'm such a danger to others when I lower the hammer to Condition 2,LOL) and of course Condition 1 when it's on my person. :supergrin:

GlockFish
03-16-2012, 14:20
Yes, it is safe.... if done properly.

Tim151515
03-16-2012, 14:30
I much prefer to have the BD model, rather than letting it down with my thumb on a live round, even to the half way point, but thats just me. It also has a lot to do with the shape of the CZ's hammer...its completely flush-round with no groove for your thumb to go into. I think that its a nice looking hammer..but if it was up to me, it would only be on the SAO and BD model CZ's, with the B model CZ's having the original spur type hammer..which I think is much easier and safer to let down, since your thumb has a groove to fit into. But, as I said, thats just my opinion.

hogship
03-16-2012, 14:35
Many older lever and pump rifles have a half-cock which was intended to be used on a loaded chamber. There were safety issues with these rifles because of hammer slipping off the thumb and causing an AD while lowering the hammer from full cock.

The 1911 action also has a half-cock.......so couldn't this be used on a loaded chamber when full-cock isn't desired? (As with the old rifles, lowering the hammer is a safety issue in itself, but I'm thinking that the half-cock on the 1911 could be used as an alternate method to C&L........?

ooc

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 14:49
Many older lever and pump rifles have a half-cock which was intended to be used on a loaded chamber. There were safety issues with these rifles because of hammer slipping off the thumb and causing an AD while lowering the hammer from full cock.

The 1911 action also has a half-cock.......so couldn't this be used on a loaded chamber when full-cock isn't desired? (As with the old rifles, lowering the hammer is a safety issue in itself, but I'm thinking that the half-cock on the 1911 could be used as an alternate method to C&L........?

ooc

The owners manual of my S&W 1911

"HALF-COCKED POSITION of the hammer functions as an automatic safety position. It will prevent the hammer from falling fully forward unintentionally. Never attempt to fire the pistol from the half-cocked position. To remove the hammer from the half-cocked position, keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, then draw the hammer to the fully-cocked position. From this position, the pistol may be fired or decocked.

**The half cocked position is not a manual safety. The hammer should never be left in this position. Never carry the pistol in the half-cocked position.**"

hogship
03-16-2012, 14:59
The owners manual of my S&W 1911

"HALF-COCKED POSITION of the hammer functions as an automatic safety position. It will prevent the hammer from falling fully forward unintentionally. Never attempt to fire the pistol from the half-cocked position. To remove the hammer from the half-cocked position, keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, then draw the hammer to the fully-cocked position. From this position, the pistol may be fired or decocked.

**The half cocked position is not a manual safety. The hammer should never be left in this position. Never carry the pistol in the half-cocked position.**"

So, if I understand correctly, the half-cock is a safety measure in the event of a hammer dropping without the trigger being depressed (bumped, or jarred).......? I see that the safety cannot be engaged with the hammer in half-cock, and the hammer will fall forward from the half cock when the trigger is depressed.......different than the older lever rifles, for sure.

Thanks for the info.......not a good idea to use the half cock for a method of use.......

ooc

SauerChoi
03-16-2012, 15:30
While it may not be a big deal to decock the hammer on a 1911, why would you?

Why would you need to go through the motion of cocking the hammer if you need it? The simple motion of pressing the safety off with your shooting hand is alot simpler than manually cocking a hammer. I really don't understand why this discussion is even had on gun forums.

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 15:33
So, if I understand correctly, the half-cock is a safety measure in the event of a hammer dropping without the trigger being depressed (bumped, or jarred).......? I see that the safety cannot be engaged with the hammer in half-cock, and the hammer will fall forward from the half cock when the trigger is depressed.......different than the older lever rifles, for sure.

Thanks for the info.......not a good idea to use the half cock for a method of use.......

ooc

I think the half cock position is a safety -

Assume you are cocking the gun and you get the hammer back 95% - and it slips off your thumb - most guns would fire if the hammer is dropped from an almost full cock position.

The force of the hammer being dropped from less than 1/2 way back - should not be enough to fire the gun -

Obviously I am not expect - just been doing a lot of reading lately.

Rumbler_G20
03-16-2012, 16:00
While it may not be a big deal to decock the hammer on a 1911, why would you?

Why would you need to go through the motion of cocking the hammer if you need it? The simple motion of pressing the safety off with your shooting hand is alot simpler than manually cocking a hammer. I really don't understand why this discussion is even had on gun forums.


+1. The 1911 was originally and specifically designed to be carried hammer back with the thumb safety engaged on a loaded chamber.

It is not like that is a secret . . . :tongueout:

hogship
03-16-2012, 16:03
Don't see where it makes any difference. If your thumb/fingers slip off of the hammer on a revolver it'll go off just like with a semi.

Double action revolver: I believe this is only true if the trigger remains depressed, otherwise it will not fire. Not sure about all DA revolvers, but this is true for those made in recent times........

ooc

hogship
03-16-2012, 16:13
I think the half cock position is a safety -

Assume you are cocking the gun and you get the hammer back 95% - and it slips off your thumb - most guns would fire if the hammer is dropped from an almost full cock position.





Yes....the half cock on a 1911 is an automatic safety device, as I understand it.......not to be used as a manual safety measure.

While manually cocking a hammer on a 1911, I believe a discharge could only occur if the trigger remains depressed......that is, if I understand the purpose of the half cock on the 1911. I doubt that very many people would have any need to manually cock a 1911 at any time......but, I'm open to being corrected if that's incorrect.......

ooc

Z71bill
03-16-2012, 16:19
Yes....the half cock on a 1911 is an automatic safety device, as I understand it.......not to be used as a manual safety measure.

While manually cocking a hammer on a 1911, I believe a discharge could only occur if the trigger remains depressed......that is, if I understand the purpose of the half cock on the 1911. I doubt that very many people would have any need to manually cock a 1911 at any time......but, I'm open to being corrected if that's incorrect.......

ooc

Good point - can't get a round in the chamber without racking the slide - so you really should never need to manually cock the hammer.

ithaca_deerslayer
03-16-2012, 19:08
I posted this question over on a 1911a1 forum and most of the guys there either keep their 1911a1 in Condition 1 or totally empty. Looks like when my gun is in the drawer it'll be Condition 3 from here on out(since I'm such a danger to others when I lower the hammer to Condition 2,LOL) and of course Condition 1 when it's on my person. :supergrin:

Wait, what?

Are you changing your method?

The only argument I've seen against condition 2 in a 1911 is that it is an unnecessary risk. But how is it different than de-cocking a single action revolver (which I do all the time).

I personally never condition 2 my 1911, because I see no reason to. Leave it 1 or go to 3, is my own choice :)

Tim151515
03-16-2012, 19:10
Wait, what?

Are you changing your method?

The only argument I've seen against condition 2 in a 1911 is that it is an unnecessary risk. But how is it different than de-cocking a single action revolver (which I do all the time).

I personally never condition 2 my 1911, because I see no reason to. Leave it 1 or go to 3, is my own choice :)

Not a revolver guy..but arent single action revolvers supposed to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer?

SauerChoi
03-16-2012, 19:24
Not the new models. they all seem to have that transfer bar so that you can have all 6 rounds loaded and not worry about it.

nastytrigger
03-16-2012, 19:26
Not a revolver guy..but arent single action revolvers supposed to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer?

Old single-actions, yes. Newer ones have a transfer bar to transfer the hammers energy to the bar and into the primer, unlike the older guns that the hammer rested on, or close to the primer.

nastytrigger
03-16-2012, 19:27
Not the new models. they all seem to have that transfer bar so that you can have all 6 rounds loaded and not worry about it.

Must of been typing at the same time! ;)

nastytrigger
03-16-2012, 19:33
Good point - can't get a round in the chamber without racking the slide - so you really should never need to manually cock the hammer.

Agree. On a 1911, one should never lower the hammer on a live round. Bad way to carry/not needed.

It's ok with a revolver with a transfer bar. Granted, you're still holding a hammer and pressing the trigger. Release trigger while lowering, or the hammer could still slip.

DA/SA guns, of course, have a decocker, or some that have a safety/decocker.

Striker fired guns, no worries there!

SauerChoi
03-16-2012, 19:42
Must of been typing at the same time! ;)
:supergrin:

Kikon
03-16-2012, 20:06
With my Jericho 941 RPSL, no problem!!! And you can safely carry a round RTF in the chamber. The decocker actually moves the firing pin away from the hammer. All you need to fire is DA and the 16 reminder rounds will be SA.

smokeross
03-16-2012, 20:31
I will sometimes carry an old style single action revolver with all 6 holes charged, but lower the hammer so it rests between chambers.
Also many hammer guns are quite capable of striking the primer with enough force fire the round from the half cock position.

ojabog
03-16-2012, 21:44
I know what your saying, its nervewracking to try and drop the hammer on a live round. I was taught to put a finger in front of the hammer as you ease it forward....just in case you slip your finger would stop the hammer. Mine doesn't bite if your wondering. Once the hammer starts to move forward you take the pressure off the trigger and the hammer will stop at a quarter cock position. Its back in a DA pull. That is how my 75B works anyway. If you keep the pressure on the trigger as your ease it forward it wants to go all the way down to the firing pin. I don't know if that is the B in the 75B or not.

ithaca_deerslayer
03-16-2012, 21:48
I will sometimes carry an old style single action revolver with all 6 holes charged, but lower the hammer so it rests between chambers.
Also many hammer guns are quite capable of striking the primer with enough force fire the round from the half cock position.

On an old style one, even only loading 5, once you cock the hammer, a live round is now in position. You decide to uncock, there is a live round you are setting the hammer on.

I do that all the time. Obviously point in a safe direction. If you have the time and the hands free, you could put your spare thumb under the hammer to half cock, then rotate the cylinder.

But I'd bet lots of us decock all the way down to a live round, one handed.

If a newer gun with a transfer bar, you can release the trigger once you start to decock, thus withdrawing the transfer bar so it won't fire as you decock.

How do you decock with your old style single action?

TN.Frank
03-16-2012, 21:53
How do you decock with your old style single action?

I always brought it to half cock the rotated the cylinder around so that I could cock the hammer back and bring the empty chamber around, then I'd decock the hammer onto the empty chamber. For God sake people, it's not Rocket Science.:rofl:

FLIPPER 348
03-17-2012, 00:32
Well, OK. But lets be perfectly clear: There is not even one single expert who has lived in the last 100 years that will agree with you. Zip. Zero. Nada.:dunno:

The designer of the 1911 and the US Army would quite disagree with you.

FLIPPER 348
03-17-2012, 00:37
+1. The 1911 was originally and specifically designed to be carried hammer back with the thumb safety engaged on a loaded chamber.

It is not like that is a secret . . . :tongueout:


ah, no




From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

hogship
03-17-2012, 01:50
ah, no




From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

Thanks flipper, for this input......

I'm interested to hear from bac, or some of the other 1911 experts who frequent this forum......

but......

This really does seem like a revelation to me!!!!! This post from flipper sent me to the safe to check on my 1911.......and, I see that the half cock position does, indeed require the grip safety to be engaged for the trigger to release the hammer forward from the half cock position. It seems to make sense to me that JMB may have intended for the 1911 to be carried with a round in the chamber and hammer on half cock. (Besides the obvious similarities to the SAA revolver in use, this is exactly like many rifles of the day were carried.....Springfields, Winchesters, etc......)

When you think of this a little.......during these early times of automatic pistols being adopted from revolver carry, many, if not most soldiers of the day were still using single action revolvers on a regular basis (even though double action revolvers had been in use for some 20+ years at that time, the old single action army revolver was still quite relevant to the times). It would make sense that the simple act of "thumbing" the hammer was still a very common practice at that time......and this, being the mindset of those times would carry over to the conversion to automatics from revolvers.......and, thus, the basic reasoning of why JMB might have been thinking along these lines while designing the automatic pistol that eventually became the 1911........

I don't know if any of that is true, or not......but, it does seem to resonate to some degree when you consider the elements of single action revolver use, horse soldiers, and how these things may have played out in the traditional thinking of those times.......

It very well may be that the original intent of JMB might have been to thumb the hammer in order to bring the 1911 into action.......rather than C&L..........:dunno:

OK, 1911 experts..........does any of this make any sense to you?.........

ooc

CajunBass
03-17-2012, 06:19
I learned to decock a firearm, with a capgun when I was about five years old,. Didn't have any trouble then, and haven't had any sense.

You might argue that you don't need to. You might argue that it's not a good idea, but there is nothing "unsafe" about it, unless you happen to be particularly clumsey or uncordinated.

Hold the hammer back...pull the trigger...let the hammer down. What's unsafe?

series1811
03-17-2012, 06:27
What good is a DA/SA pistol if I can't carry it hammer down?

Do you have the gun loaded - round in chamber - but hammer down - if you need to put the gun into service quickly - just pull the trigger.


I am thinking CZ now - the CZ97B model does not have a manual decocker - so how would I get to the hammer down on a live round?

The manual says nothing about doing it.

Doesn't the "B" in CZ75B stand for blocker, as in firing pin blocker. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that you are fine carrying a CZ75B with the hammer down on a live round (but not so much so on an older CZ75 (without the "B"), that should be carried in at least the half cock notch.

Somebody jump in if I have that wrong.

Z71bill
03-17-2012, 08:08
OMG - I am feeling stupid -

I read the new posts on this thread - then went to get a cup of coffee - and

IT HIT ME!

I now see where the term -

Don't go off half cocked - or He went off half cocked
originated :rofl:

I never really thought about it before. :embarassed:

TN.Frank
03-17-2012, 09:27
OMG - I am feeling stupid -

I read the new posts on this thread - then went to get a cup of coffee - and

IT HIT ME!

I now see where the term -

Don't go off half cocked - or He went off half cocked
originated :rofl:

I never really thought about it before. :embarassed:

That term is way older then the handguns we're talking about here. It's actually from the flintlock days.
Also, great read Flipper 348. I think I'll share that info with some of the guys on the other forum. Thanks.

FLIPPER 348
03-17-2012, 11:05
worth a 1000 words

hogship
03-17-2012, 11:27
worth a 1000 words

Yep.....no manual safety at all!:wavey:

Is that a doctored photo, or real? Tell us about that picture and it's place in the historical evolution of the 1911......

ooc

TN.Frank
03-17-2012, 11:42
That was the original 1910 version of what eventually became the 1911. JMB intended for the gun to be carried in Condition 2, hammer on half cock with a round in the chamber. Go figure.LOL.
The Army, fearing that someone may accidentally drop the hammer on the round in the chamber ask for a manual safety lever to be added to render the gun safe until the hammer could be lowered in a safe manner at a later time. Great pic, thanks.

SauerChoi
03-17-2012, 15:26
ah, no




From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

Great information Flipper. thanks for sharing.

TN.Frank
03-17-2012, 15:45
Here's how I decock my 1911a1, been doing it this way for over 30 years, never had an ND and never will, too much "meat" between the hammer and firing pin to ever make the round in the chamber go off.
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2094/dec1g.jpg
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9206/dec2r.jpg
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg196/scaled.php?server=196&filename=dec3p.jpg&res=medium

hogship
03-17-2012, 16:53
This whole thread has been an "awakening" for me. I'm not a stranger to the 1911, but I've never been a 1911 enthusiast, either. I've always kept a 1911 either unloaded, or cocked and locked.

Since this whole thing came up, I have practiced "thumbing" the 1911 hammer a few times, and it really seems a bit awkward doing it one handed.......much more so than with a revolver. (Try it, and tell us if that is correct from your perspective......try it with a revolver, as well, and compare.)

Now, try lowering the 1911 hammer one handed........With a round in the chamber, this could be downright dangerous to attempt with anything but two hands. Considering this, and applying that to mounted soldiers in the cavalry, I can see why the military wanted the safety to be added to the 1910 version.

On addition.......it seems to me that "cocked and locked", even though it may not have been the original intended method of carry, remains far superior to hammer down on half cock with loaded chamber. I say that, simply because thumbing the hammer is such an awkward thing to do with anything but two hands......This is not to say it can't be done one handed, but it is not very natural or comfortable to do it one handed......it's awkward.

In a combat role, the cocked and locked condition is just a better way to be prepared to fight........

ooc

Thanks to TNFrank and Flipper for their input on this.......

edit: I don't know why I feel this is necessary, but when I suggest to practice lowering the hammer one handed, I really do mean to test it out on an unloaded chamber.........

TN.Frank
03-17-2012, 17:16
For carry I prefer Condition 1 with my 1911a1 but when I stick it in the drawer for the night I don't like to keep in in C1, I feel better about it if it's in C2. I know, it's "crazy" but that's just how I am. Also, lowering the hammer with one hand is a foolish way to do it since as pointed out your thumb can slip off of the hammer and you'll get an ND, using two hands, as in my pics is a safe and totally sane way to do it and in over 30 years of doing it that way I've never had an ND AND I even lower the hammers on guns with a decock like that. I don't like just letting a hammer drop since hammer blocks can fail. Sig is about the only pistol where the decocker lets the hammer down slowly, that's one reason that I really like the Sig design.

Cobra64
03-17-2012, 17:48
+1.

The 1911 was originally and specifically designed to be carried hammer back with the thumb safety engaged on a loaded chamber.

It is not like that is a secret . . . :tongueout:

Apparently Colt didn't get the email. :tongueout:

http://i51.tinypic.com/nxri3l.jpg

Cobra64
03-17-2012, 17:52
Old single-actions, yes. Newer ones have a transfer bar to transfer the hammers energy to the bar and into the primer, unlike the older guns that the hammer rested on, or close to the primer.


Correct. Example:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/RUGERBISLEYVAQUEROFRAMED.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1020141.jpg


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1010062.jpg

ithaca_deerslayer
03-18-2012, 15:49
. . . I even lower the hammers on guns with a decock like that. I don't like just letting a hammer drop since hammer blocks can fail. Sig is about the only pistol where the decocker lets the hammer down slowly, that's one reason that I really like the Sig design.

Beretta 92 rotates the firing pin out of alignment as you turn down the decocker lever. Can't get any safer than that, can it?

TN.Frank
03-18-2012, 16:14
Beretta 92 rotates the firing pin out of alignment as you turn down the decocker lever. Can't get any safer than that, can it?

Nope, it can't but I still don't like having the hammer hit with full force. I'd rather hold it and lower it down slowly. That's one thing I really like about Sig, the decock holds the hammer back until you let the lever up so you can slowly lower the hammer.

AA#5
03-18-2012, 16:33
Series 70 is perfectly safe to have the hammer lowered with a round in the chamber, it's called Condition 2. The firing pin is actually shorter then the channel that it rides in so even with the hammer pushing on the back of the pin it'll still not contact the primer. It'll only hit the primer when the hammer hits it hard enough to drive it forward and it overcomes the firing pin spring tension.
I did have a Star 9mm that had a longer firing pin so that if you put the hammer down on the firing pin it would actually protrude into the primer, that was not a safe gun to carry with the hammer down but a 1911a1 is perfectly safe.
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

No it isn't safe. Any blow to the hammer can fire the gun. And it has.

TN.Frank
03-18-2012, 17:14
No it isn't safe. Any blow to the hammer can fire the gun. And it has.

With a Star that has a longer firing pin yes but with a Colt style 1911a1 with the inertia firing pin no way a blow to the hammer will fire the gun. Ain't going to happen, no how, no way.
You need to read this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-13620.html
Guy put the hammer down on his 1911a1 with a primed case in place, hit it with a mallet 10 times and nothing happened, not even a ding on the primer.