Philadelphia police harrass man with a carry license [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jdavionic
03-20-2012, 19:04
Should be interesting to see how this ends up
http://pennrecord.com/news/lawsuit-claims-harassment-of-lawful-gun-owners-is-turning-phila-into-a-police-state/

James Dean
03-20-2012, 19:59
As long as its taxpayer money this will continue to happen.

jdavionic
03-21-2012, 03:20
There was some liberal politician on CNN the other day who was discussing the neighborhood watch incident in FL...which I don't want to discuss the details here. However the relevant part is that she said "federal law trumps state law" while taking about Florida's laws in that incident. So does that mean that "state law trumps city law" here?

We are seeing more challenges at a state vs. federal level. However I don't recall seeing a recent conflict of local vs. state. It seems those who carry are caught in the middle of this one.

NEOH212
03-21-2012, 03:35
There was some liberal politician on CNN the other day who was discussing the neighborhood watch incident in FL...which I don't want to discuss the details here. However the relevant part is that she said "federal law trumps state law" while taking about Florida's laws in that incident. So does that mean that "state law trumps city law" here?

We are seeing more challenges at a state vs. federal level. However I don't recall seeing a recent conflict of local vs. state. It seems those who carry are caught in the middle of this one.

We had a similar problem here in Ohio several years ago. To make a long story short, we have state wide preemption on firearms laws and the local anti-gun governments lost.

:cool:

RussP
03-21-2012, 05:01
What are the details of the three encounters Mr. Lavalliere had with PPD?

Tvov
03-21-2012, 05:08
What is an "armed security agent"? Another term for private security guard?

jdavionic
03-21-2012, 05:32
What are the details of the three encounters Mr. Lavalliere had with PPD?

I tried to find more and haven't yet. I can find the detailed docket info - charges, defendants listed, lawyers, etc. But there are no details of the 3 encounters other than what I posted...basically that he was found not guilty on all charges.

eracer
03-21-2012, 05:58
Any and all state or local LEO's, along with politicians (particularly upper-echelon) who react to laws that increase citizen freedom by seeking to harass said citizens in other ways should be removed from office by the Governor and Attorney General of the state.

Mayor Daley comes to mind, with his onerous attempts to ways to continue harassing Chicago citizens whose rights have been confirmed by the Heller decision. Philly seems to be on the path, and of course Mayor Bloomberg in NY is the most obvious example of a politician who completely ignores the fact that he is a public servant. The fact that a portion of the populace of NYC supports his fascism is irrelevant. Those sheep have been brainwashed into believing that an unarmed citizenry is a safer society. Hopefully the residents of Philly (long known for their individualism) will not fall into the same sinkhole.

md2lgyk
03-21-2012, 10:08
We had a similar problem here in Ohio several years ago. To make a long story short, we have state wide preemption on firearms laws and the local anti-gun governments lost.

:cool:

This is the key. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Philidelphia's carry law is stricter than the rest of PA, which does not have a statewide preemption law.

Jud325
03-21-2012, 12:48
Pa has state wide preemption. It is state law that is stricter in cities of the first class.


18 Pa.C.S. 6120: Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition


(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.(a.1) No right of action.-- (1) No political subdivision may bring or maintain an action at law or in equity against any firearms or ammunition manufacturer, trade association or dealer for damages, abatement, injunctive relief or any other relief or remedy resulting from or relating to either the lawful design or manufacture of firearms or ammunition or the lawful marketing or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public. (2) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit a political subdivision from bringing or maintaining an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision. (b) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection: "Dealer." The term shall include any person engaged in the business of selling at wholesale or retail a firearm or ammunition. "Firearms." This term shall have the meaning given to it in section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training) but shall not include air rifles as that term is defined in section 6304 ( relating to sale and use of air rifles). "Political subdivision." The term shall include any home rule charter municipality, county, city, borough, incorporated town, township or school district.

Jud325
03-21-2012, 12:53
18 Pa.C.S. 6108: Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia


No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless: (1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106 (http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6106/firearms-not-to-be-carried-without-a-license/) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

18 Pa.C.S. 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license


(a) Offense defined.-- (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree. (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to: (1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers. (2) Members of the army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty. (3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such firearms from the United States or from this Commonwealth. (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded. (5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm. (6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties. (7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business. (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm. (9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing as permitted by such license, or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places. (10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season. (11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state. (12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the license. (13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm. (14) A person lawfully engaged in the interstate transportation of a firearm as defined under 18 U.S.C 921(a)(3) (relating to definitions) in compliance with 18 U.S.C. 926A (relating to interstate transportation of firearms). (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided: (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109. (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth. (16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109(f)(3).(c) Sportsman's firearm permit.-- (1) Before any exception shall be granted under paragraph (b)(9) or (10) of this section to any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be issued immediately and be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years from the date of issue for any legal firearm, when carried in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be in triplicate on a form to be furnished by the Pennsylvania State Police. The original permit shall be delivered to the person, and the first copy thereof, within seven days, shall be forwarded to the Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police by the county treasurer. The second copy shall be retained by the county treasurer for a period of two years from the date of expiration. The county treasurer shall be entitled to collect a fee of not more than $6 for each such permit issued, which shall include the cost of any official form. The Pennsylvania State Police may recover from the county treasurer the cost of any such form, but may not charge more than $1 for each official permit form furnished to the county treasurer. (2) Any person who sells or attempts to sell a sportsman's firearm permit for a fee in excess of that amount fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.(d) Revocation of registration.--Any registration of a firearm under subsection (c) of this section may be revoked by the county treasurer who issued it, upon written notice to the holder thereof.(e) Definitions.-- (1) For purposes of subsection (b)(3), (4), (5), (7) and (8), the term "firearm" shall include any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of the weapon. (2) As used in this section, the phrase "place of instruction" shall include any hunting club, rifle club, rifle range, pistol range, shooting range, the premises of a licensed firearms dealer or a lawful gun show or meet.

Jud325
03-21-2012, 12:56
Lethal Weapons Training - PA Act 235


Lethal Weapons certification, officially known as PA Act 235, is mandatory for all privately employed persons who utilize any type of a lethal weapon in the performance of their work. Lethal Weapons Training Academy is a state certified center for PA Act 235.
Information and official PA Act 235 application forms can be obtained from the Pennsylvania State Police lethal weapons training program website.

Jud325
03-21-2012, 13:04
I think there are 8 or 9 people with recent stories like this.

http://www.policeone.com/news/2864454-Pa-cops-spar-with-licensed-concealed-carrier/

Jud325
03-21-2012, 13:35
I found the philly.com article.

http://articles.philly.com/2010-08-31/news/24974423_1_city-cops-philadelphia-cops-security-guards

Kaonashi
03-21-2012, 13:51
the relevant part is that she said "federal law trumps state law" while taking about Florida's laws in that incident. So does that mean that "state law trumps city law" here?


The article says that Pennsylvania has a preemption clause at the state level so yeah, that would mean that when the laws conflict state law is the one that rules.

I don't think that would stop the city of Philadelphia from passing a tougher law, it just would have no effect until/unless the preemption was repealed.




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jdavionic
03-21-2012, 17:35
I found the philly.com article.

http://articles.philly.com/2010-08-31/news/24974423_1_city-cops-philadelphia-cops-security-guards

Interesting. So while there is reciprocity with PA, the people who are carrying in performing a job in PA AND do not have the training mandated by PA Act 235 are violating PA law.

What's unclear is how the OP case that I posted happened. They stated that the guy was found 'not guilty'. So if they were unable to prove that he violated a law, how can they refuse to return his property (firearm)?

Steve in PA
03-21-2012, 22:48
They refuse, because they want to be @#$% (nickname for someone named Richard).

They will probably say that the person needs a court order to get his things back, which is wrong. Once the case is over, the belongings should and must be returned.