Police harassment or trolling for attention or both? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jdavionic
03-20-2012, 19:28
Police harassment or trolling for attention or both?

What say you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWghJrVeYA&feature=youtu.be

jdavionic
03-20-2012, 19:29
IMO, the OC person was seeking the attention in the initial encounter. The subsequent encounter seemed like the police making an effort to make him uncomfortable. So I say both.

Mister_Beefy
03-20-2012, 19:57
the guy in the video has second amendment rights, the police just needed to make sure he had their permission to exercise them.

just another day on the job. :rofl:

jdavionic
03-20-2012, 20:00
the police just needed to make sure he had their permission to exercise them.


Twice? I can understand the first time. But the second time after he had already been checked?

kensteele
03-20-2012, 21:27
I dunno, people need to learn to stop talking so much I guess.

MinnesnowtaWild
03-20-2012, 21:44
These videos are f-ing annoying. Give them you're g-dang ID and be done with it instead of being a know it all lawyer wannabe.

Please.

AKmik
03-21-2012, 01:51
:steamed:

These videos kill me. I am no sure what would make any gun owner want to go out and bait the cops. Like it or not in todays day and age when an officer sees a weapon on someone not wearing a uniform he is probably going to investigate,that is a proven fact. every one of these videos is the same, some smug little smart ass proving that he has the right to carry, thats great.
The thing that burns me up is the attitude they take in trying to get a reaction out of LE so he can somehow prove that his rights are being violated. There is no winning that one, if the cop asks for ID he is wrong and abusing his power. If the guy strolling down the crowded pier full of sheeple pulls his gun and starts shooting and the cops did not challange the gunslinger, then they are wrong for letting it happen. Its easily twisted and can be argued forever.

This is not the old west, he is in FL where CCW licenses are very easy to obtain. The guy is a tool who is wasting the officers time, distracting him from his job. No one needs to know you are armed.

I have been carrying concealed for twenty years, five of which were in FL, and I have never had any issues with law enforcement trying to infringe on my second amendment right to bear arms.

The video proves Officer McGee was paying attention, if my family was out on the pier that day I'd be glad he checked that guys ID and varified he is legal.

beatcop
03-21-2012, 05:07
cop baiting.

As an aside, the mere smoking of that rolled up dog turd would be enough for me

jdavionic
03-21-2012, 05:33
cop baiting.

As an aside, the mere smoking of that rolled up dog turd would be enough for me

I agree with respect to the first encounter. The guy appears to be trolling for attention...and got it.

But what about the second encounter?

acg8276
03-21-2012, 05:34
:steamed:

These videos kill me. I am no sure what would make any gun owner want to go out and bait the cops.

Unfortunately there is a website that has a devoted following of such knuckleheads. They get some kind of enjoyment out of being straw lawyers and going after not only LEO's but townships as well. They secretly tape record and/or video their preplanned encounters to get some kind of feeling of self worth or satisfaction.

While I agree we need to protect our rights as gun owners, the tact they use is a detriment to us all. They act like a bunch of nut jobs for the most part. Giving the rest of us a bad name.

beatcop
03-21-2012, 06:13
I agree with respect to the first encounter. The guy appears to be trolling for attention...and got it.

But what about the second encounter?

Not sure if it was a recon to put eyes on the guy in the event of nonsense or otherwise. More than likely the Sgt prob said, "show me this guy" and was taken to him.

Either way, it falls under "he got the attention he was looking for". I don't live there, but my opinion is that it appeared minimally intrusive. Guys like that have a zero tolerance policy for any LE investigation, but will criticize LE if they don't stop a guy with a TV on his back.

MoneyMaker
03-21-2012, 06:33
just expressing his 2A rights

slickt0mmy
03-21-2012, 08:28
:steamed:

These videos kill me. I am no sure what would make any gun owner want to go out and bait the cops. Like it or not in todays day and age when an officer sees a weapon on someone not wearing a uniform he is probably going to investigate,that is a proven fact. every one of these videos is the same, some smug little smart ass proving that he has the right to carry, thats great.
The thing that burns me up is the attitude they take in trying to get a reaction out of LE so he can somehow prove that his rights are being violated. There is no winning that one, if the cop asks for ID he is wrong and abusing his power. If the guy strolling down the crowded pier full of sheeple pulls his gun and starts shooting and the cops did not challange the gunslinger, then they are wrong for letting it happen. Its easily twisted and can be argued forever.

This is my opinion as well. I'm all for the right to open carry and if that's what you want to do, more power to you. But purposely baiting the police is what really irks me about these guys. There's exercising your rights, and then there's being a smart ass punk. This guy was both.

HKLovingIT
03-21-2012, 09:30
The vid poster wanted to get some content to post. The officer wanted to check his ID and make sure the guy wasn't doing anything goofy out on the pier. Nothing to fuss about from either perspective as far as I could see.

I will note that neither officer was wearing his hat. So that does bring the entire interaction into question from a legal standpoint. :whistling:

Shark1007
03-21-2012, 10:57
Youthful zeal and arrogance. I wonder how the video would have turned out if some father saw the gun on the pier near his kids, freaked and beat the kid down with a folding chair. The kid would have reached for the gun, Dad would have beat him harder.

Hope he has to call the officer he harassed for real help some day.

Just asking for trouble and making gun toters look like pinheads.

Bill Lumberg
03-21-2012, 11:03
Idiot. They've always existed, procreated even. Now they have youtube. Or as I like to call it, the Darwin channel.

SGT HATRED
03-21-2012, 11:26
Good god. I'm so thankful I live in ARIZONA where I don't have to worry about people like all of you. I OC nearly every day and have never been harassed or labeled a zealot. Such a different mentality out here.

Shark1007
03-21-2012, 12:30
We're thankful you're happy in Arizona too. You see, here in Florida, we are pretty populated and some smirking kid with a gun, brandishing a video camera, giving cops a hassle just doesn't seem wise, or safe with our "stand your ground law"

It just seemed dangerous and irresponsible. I'm an ex LEO and sympathize with officers these days, they have so much going on with gangbangers, officer involved shootings, budget issues, they don't need these cute little showoffs messing with them.

Obviously it caused a scene, I can assure you people fishing with their kids wouldn't say "he's exercising his right to bear arms" they would likely wonder what the kid was doing in public with a gun, that just scares folks these days when shooting occur so frequently. Better hope a legit CCW holder doesn't draw down on him.

Back in my day, my Dad would have challenged the kid and if he got a smart ass response, whipped his ass and maybe have thrown him over the pier.

Bruce M
03-21-2012, 19:00
It seems as though open carry works much better in some areas than in others. For instance, it seems to attract less attention in some rural areas and more in some urban areas. And specifically to this case, it might attract less attention if someone was fishing in a desolate remote area in Florida than on an urban (suburban?) pier.

DannyII
03-21-2012, 19:28
This velcro wallet carrying punk is a class A jerk. He gives pro-ccw folks a bad name, and does more harm than good.

Sharky7
03-21-2012, 19:34
Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html

jdavionic
03-21-2012, 19:37
Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html


So since this man was fishing, would you call this harassment?

kenpoprofessor
03-21-2012, 19:53
Good god. I'm so thankful I live in ARIZONA where I don't have to worry about people like all of you. I OC nearly every day and have never been harassed or labeled a zealot. Such a different mentality out here.

:cool::wavey:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

gunowner1
03-21-2012, 20:27
The kids an idiot!

Sharky7
03-21-2012, 20:27
So since this man was fishing, would you call this harassment?

The second contact was a very clear consensual contact. Officer comes up, shakes hand, and introduces himself.

"How are you doing?"

"Is this your fishing gear?"

"Can you show me which one is yours?"

Officer doesn't request/demand ID, doesn't command movement of OCer, basically does not seize the individual.

Generally, 99% of law enforcement contacts will fall under
1.) consensual contacts
2.) investigatory stops/detained
3.) arrest

The officers were operating at the lowest level possible - consensual contact. No, I don't consider it harassment.

jkm
03-21-2012, 21:05
What a cool idea! Strap on a gun and go looking for trouble. He's a punk.

Mister_Beefy
03-21-2012, 21:15
for a firearm centered web forum, there are sure a lot of people here who really hate anyone but the police carrying firearms.

slickt0mmy
03-21-2012, 21:18
for a firearm centered web forum, there are sure a lot of people here who really hate anyone but the police carrying firearms.

We love people carrying firearms. But we hate when those people act like assclowns and go searching for trouble just to prove a point.

noway
03-21-2012, 21:20
Back in my day, my Dad would have challenged the kid and if he got a smart ass response, whipped his ass and maybe have thrown him over the pier.

Wow, speak highly of your dad :whistling:

If the OC want to follow the letter of the law, no matter who distracting he is, than why would the police need to harass him?


See the problem with the police, they have problems with citizens exercising the law and then want to be pricks about it. And then the LEO community is shock when the public don't trust them.

What this venice PD did is infringe on this person right give exclusively by state-law ( notice I didn't even mention RKBA ) and then we ( gun owners ) want to **** on the guy for doing something.

Speaks very highly of us gun owners.


btw: I woul dlove some one to organize a carry your gun to the pier fishing day at venice. I might just drive over and hook up with them, even tho I like Naples pier better.

kensteele
03-21-2012, 21:44
We love people carrying firearms. But we hate when those people act like assclowns and go searching for trouble just to prove a point.

I'm not happy about it and I don't condone and I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm certainly not going to get all broken up about it and start wanting to change rights and laws, etc. Just view the video and get over it, I did.

slickt0mmy
03-21-2012, 21:47
I'm not happy about it and I don't condone and I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm certainly not going to get all broken up about it and start wanting to change rights and laws, etc. Just view the video and get over it, I did.

If you could kindly point out where I said anything about changing rights and laws, that would be great. Thanks.

AKmik
03-21-2012, 22:37
See the problem with the police, they have problems with citizens exercising the law and then want to be pricks about it. And then the LEO community is shock when the public don't trust them.

What this venice PD did is infringe on this person right give exclusively by state-law ( notice I didn't even mention RKBA ) and then we ( gun owners ) want to **** on the guy for doing something.



I completely disagree with this mindset.

In no way could I twist what was seen in the video into "the cop had a problem with him exercising his rights". The officer asked for his ID to verify he was indeed a legal gun owner.
It is a situation that open carry invites, if you have a problem with cops and are irritated by speaking to them don't open carry where CC is an option. It is his job to protect the public, the price of advertising that you are armed will most likely be that you will be checked by LE to make sure you are not a danger to those around you. If you are legal no harm no foul, but there is no need to be a prick to someone who is doing their job. As soon as they check you and confirm you are legal it is always have a nice day, its called common courtesy.

It blows my mind that people are somehow bothered by having to show ID and confirm compliance with the law when they display a gun. I would also imagine the police show up for half of these encounters because they are called by a concerned citizen who sees a man with a gun.

I just think this is the wrong approach to fighting for gun rights. The police do not make the laws and breaking their balls will do nothing for second amendment rights.

MoneyMaker
03-22-2012, 05:13
Where is RussP to disect this thread to death ask why members are calling him a idiot?

beatcop
03-22-2012, 05:31
for a firearm centered web forum, there are sure a lot of people here who really hate anyone but the police carrying firearms.

All of the actual "adults" here support this guys rights...I do too, but the reality of policing is that you have to look out for the greater good on ocassion...and we still reserve the right to call a tool a tool.

Based on the post quoting the statute, I'd give my subjective opinion as follows: Guy appears to be following the letter of the law. That being said, my own opinion of the statute is that a pistol has no use when fishing in the environment he chose. If he was in a boat in alligator alley or fishing for large sharks, sure, it would seem reasonable. **just saying**.

When your sole intent is to generate fodder for youtube viewers, my respect for you drops a bit. It's one thing to bring intentional deprivation of rights to light, but we're splitting hairs now.

Bill Lumberg
03-22-2012, 06:18
He's fishing. BTW, grandma called down, says your pizza rolls are ready.
Where is RussP to disect this thread to death ask why members are calling him a idiot?

Sendarr
03-22-2012, 06:52
First off, let me say this. Clearly this guy was looking for attention or perhaps he's a tool. However, our rights apply to us all, tool or not.
I disagree with checking his papers solely because he's carrying. Why not check the ID of everyone driving in the parking lot as well? I'm pretty sure a vehicle can cause at least as much damage as a Glock, and driving isn't even a right. Also, I'm not sure how "sharks or gators" really matter. When we start drawing lines on when its ok to carry, everyone loses.

RussP
03-22-2012, 07:48
Some observations that have not been made yet.

In the first part of the video:Mr. Traub pulls into the pier parking lot to "go fishing".

He sees a police car. He sounds disappointed that it might only be "a car", but, then he sees the officer inside.

He parks in front of the patrol car.

He exits his car to "go fishing".

Problem is, he has no fishing gear with him, only a folding chair. Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html
Observation: What evidence did Officer McGee observe that indicated Mr. Traub would be fishing from the pier?

Mr. Traub told Officer McGee his gear was already on the pier. How did it get there and when?

In the second part of the video: Mr. Traub is standing on the pier, away from his fishing gear.

Mr. Traub is not holding a rod. Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html
Observation: What evidence is visible that indicates Mr. Traub is engaged in lawful fishing?

Was Mr. Traub trolling for an encounter with Venice Police? Why, yes he was.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was on his way to fish when he exited his car? No, a blue folding chair is not normally used to catch fish from a pier.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was actively fishing while standing away from his fishing gear? No, he didn't.

Had Mr. Traub ever touched his gear which somehow was already on the pier? Don't know.

Would the police have approached him the second time if he had walked over, picked up his rod and actually "fished"? In my opinion, probably not.

Did Mr. Traub do anything to show, before police contact and questions, he was complying with the Florida law regarding open carry? No.

:cool:

Edited to add: Oh, and when he refused to stand in front of the patrol car, after being told to (how many times?), was that real smart?

TBO
03-22-2012, 08:24
The legalist asks, Can I?

The libertine asks, Shall I?

And the prudent man asks, SHOULD I?

LawScholar
03-22-2012, 08:31
:steamed:

These videos kill me. I am no sure what would make any gun owner want to go out and bait the cops. Like it or not in todays day and age when an officer sees a weapon on someone not wearing a uniform he is probably going to investigate,that is a proven fact. every one of these videos is the same, some smug little smart ass proving that he has the right to carry, thats great.
The thing that burns me up is the attitude they take in trying to get a reaction out of LE so he can somehow prove that his rights are being violated. There is no winning that one, if the cop asks for ID he is wrong and abusing his power. If the guy strolling down the crowded pier full of sheeple pulls his gun and starts shooting and the cops did not challange the gunslinger, then they are wrong for letting it happen. Its easily twisted and can be argued forever.

This is not the old west, he is in FL where CCW licenses are very easy to obtain. The guy is a tool who is wasting the officers time, distracting him from his job. No one needs to know you are armed.

I have been carrying concealed for twenty years, five of which were in FL, and I have never had any issues with law enforcement trying to infringe on my second amendment right to bear arms.

The video proves Officer McGee was paying attention, if my family was out on the pier that day I'd be glad he checked that guys ID and varified he is legal.

+1,000

There are two ways to promote the Second Amendment. You can work within the system as a soft spoken, respectful firearms advocate who takes into account current court decisions and societal trends, or you can dig in your heels, bellow "shall not be infringed" (even though every single Constitutional right has been partially infringed now, and usually for good reason like time, place, and manner restrictions on the First Amendment), and try and provoke authority figures and anti-gun figures.

Guess which one wins more to the cause? In quietly carrying concealed, and respectfully and soft-spokenly arguing with critics, I've helped four people, including two previous anti-gunners, pick their first gun this year alone.

People like this hurt the cause, they don't help it.

Dukeboy01
03-22-2012, 08:36
Where is RussP to disect this thread to death ask why members are calling him a idiot?

Some observations that have not been made yet.

In the first part of the video:Mr. Traub pulls into the pier parking lot to "go fishing".

He sees a police car. He sounds disappointed that it might only be "a car", but, then he sees the officer inside.

He parks in front of the patrol car.

He exits his car to "go fishing".

Problem is, he has no fishing gear with him, only a folding chair.Observation: What evidence did Officer McGee observe that indicated Mr. Traub would be fishing from the pier?

Mr. Traub told Officer McGee his gear was already on the pier. How did it get there and when?

In the second part of the video: Mr. Traub is standing on the pier, away from his fishing gear.

Mr. Traub is not holding a rod.Observation: What evidence is visible that indicates Mr. Traub is engaged in lawful fishing?

Was Mr. Traub trolling for an encounter with Venice Police? Why, yes he was.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was on his way to fish when he exited his car? No, a blue folding chair is not normally used to catch fish from a pier.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was actively fishing while standing away from his fishing gear? No, he didn't.

Had Mr. Traub ever touched his gear which somehow was already on the pier? Don't know.

Would the police approached him the second time if he had walked over, picked up his rod and actually "fished"? In my opinion, probably not.

Did Mr. Traub do anything to show, before police contact and questions, he was complying with the Florida law regarding open carry? No.

:cool:

Edited to add: Oh, and when he refused to stand in front of the patrol car, after being told to (how many times?), was that real smart?

Careful what you wish for... Heh.

Good analysis, Russ.

MoneyMaker
03-22-2012, 08:52
So RussP when members here called the guy in a the video a idiot,Do you think of him as the idiot or do you feel the members feel he is a idiot or just annoying?How could one tell if he is a idiot?

RussP
03-22-2012, 08:53
Careful what you wish for... Heh.

Good analysis, Russ.The sad thing about the video, if the intent was to "catch-a-cop", it failed.

If the purpose was to illustrate the success of the Open Carry Walk-a-Thon held in Venice, the education of the Venice PD on the open carry law, it was a win.

MoneyMaker
03-22-2012, 08:53
I dont much care for pizza rolls how about some brooklyn style pizza

RussP
03-22-2012, 11:35
How could one tell if he is a idiot?Clinical evaluation.So RussP when members here called the guy in a the video a idiot,
Do you think of him as the idiot or


do you feel the members feel he is a idiot or


just annoying?
:rofl:
In the clinical sense of being mentally deficient, I'm not qualified to judge.

In this video, I believe he is being self-centered and his actions are self-defeating and/or counterproductive.


You need to ask them.


Again, you need to ask them.

On another note, I've read your posts in other GT forums and on several other websites. Most often in those posts you present your thoughts very clearly, succinctly. I'm certain that same presentation style would be appreciated here. :thumbsup:

A6Gator
03-22-2012, 13:25
The legalist asks, Can I?

The libertine asks, Shall I?

And the prudent man asks, SHOULD I?

Amen. Is it legal? Is it smart?

Shark1007
03-22-2012, 13:25
I do speak highly of my Dad, who's been dead over 20 years now. He was a 6th grade grad. and probably would type poorly and wouldn't spell very well either if he figured this internet thing out.

He had a great sense of propriety and a big pair of arms as a house painter. I've seen him, on fishing piers when I was tiny, telling drunks to chill, they were scaring the kids.

Maybe I'm too old school, but I was a Police Officer before law school and I think there's a reasoned blend of constitutional protections and common sense. If some smirky kid with a gun had refused staying at the front of the car with a video camera, I'd have put him in jail. Too many variables out there these days. Somebody drives by, sees the gun, screeches up to "protect" the officer or back him up..... all sorts of issues unfold.

I'm totally on the officer's side, he showed restraint and professionalism. He shouldn't have to put up with this crap so a kid can post a video.

Sendarr
03-22-2012, 13:33
I do speak highly of my Dad, who's been dead over 20 years now. He was a 6th grade grad. and probably would type poorly and wouldn't spell very well either if he figured this internet thing out.

He had a great sense of propriety and a big pair of arms as a house painter. I've seen him, on fishing piers when I was tiny, telling drunks to chill, they were scaring the kids.

Maybe I'm too old school, but I was a Police Officer before law school and I think there's a reasoned blend of constitutional protections and common sense. If some smirky kid with a gun had refused staying at the front of the car with a video camera, I'd have put him in jail. Too many variables out there these days. Somebody drives by, sees the gun, screeches up to "protect" the officer or back him up..... all sorts of issues unfold.

I'm totally on the officer's side, he showed restraint and professionalism. He shouldn't have to put up with this crap so a kid can post a video.

If you're looking for a job where you dont have to "put up with crap" then law enforcement and/or the military probably isn't for you.

Shark1007
03-22-2012, 13:43
I agree, having been in both and also having been shot, which hurts like the dickens. I'm just critical of unsafe behavior like this. To be objective, you'd have to give the kid credit for having stones. I'd be afraid of gettin my butt shot if something went wrong and then having my last words be "check out my facebook open carry page"

From a technical perspective, it did seem to be an experienced officer, who took the license with his weak hand while standing at an angle, protecting his weapon just like we were trained long ago.

HKLovingIT
03-22-2012, 14:13
Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html


Makes sense then, they went out on the pier to make sure he was fishing or has his fishing gear. If not, and he was just hanging out on the pier he would be in violation I suppose.

ijacek
03-22-2012, 16:49
He is a TOOL! Yes he can openly display his weapon while on the fishing trip, but few questions beg to ask:

1) What is he trying to prove? Wow I am over 21 and have this cool gun, and I can openly carry it too. BTW he is fishing with one K-mart special pole? Wow!

2) Why so surprised when approached by LEO? Florida is not (with already cited exceptions) an open carry state. It is unusual to go in the middle of the day, to a crowded pier, fishing with your gun strapped.

3) How is the LEO to know whether the citizen that displays a firearm is not a felon (790.023), subject to domestic violence injunction (790.0233), or a violent career offender (790.0235) illegally carrying a firearm?

4) If you have a chair in one hand and the camera in the other, how do you plan on defending yourself? How do you plan on completing any type of weapon retention, should one of the other citizens decided to wanting your pistol'a.

I am all for 2A and the right of people to own guns, but be responsible about it.

jdavionic
03-22-2012, 16:55
Observation: What evidence did Officer McGee observe that indicated Mr. Traub would be fishing from the pier?

Mr. Traub told Officer McGee his gear was already on the pier. How did it get there and when?

In the second part of the video:
Mr. Traub is standing on the pier, away from his fishing gear.

Mr. Traub is not holding a rod.

Good explanation. Not sure that's really what they were thinking, but it's certainly a logical possibility.

rvrctyrngr
03-22-2012, 16:58
Some observations that have not been made yet.

In the first part of the video:Mr. Traub pulls into the pier parking lot to "go fishing".

He sees a police car. He sounds disappointed that it might only be "a car", but, then he sees the officer inside.

He parks in front of the patrol car.

He exits his car to "go fishing".

Problem is, he has no fishing gear with him, only a folding chair.Observation: What evidence did Officer McGee observe that indicated Mr. Traub would be fishing from the pier?

Mr. Traub told Officer McGee his gear was already on the pier. How did it get there and when?

In the second part of the video:Mr. Traub is standing on the pier, away from his fishing gear.

Mr. Traub is not holding a rod.Observation: What evidence is visible that indicates Mr. Traub is engaged in lawful fishing?

Was Mr. Traub trolling for an encounter with Venice Police? Why, yes he was.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was on his way to fish when he exited his car? No, a blue folding chair is not normally used to catch fish from a pier.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was actively fishing while standing away from his fishing gear? No, he didn't.

Had Mr. Traub ever touched his gear which somehow was already on the pier? Don't know.

Would the police have approached him the second time if he had walked over, picked up his rod and actually "fished"? In my opinion, probably not.

Did Mr. Traub do anything to show, before police contact and questions, he was complying with the Florida law regarding open carry? No.

:cool:

Edited to add: Oh, and when he refused to stand in front of the patrol car, after being told to (how many times?), was that real smart?

Good summary, Russ. That whole event was a PITA for the legitimate fight for OC and firearms rights in Florida. Within minutes of that starting up, we had calls from legislators asking what the heck was going on and threatening to pull pro-rights bills from the legislative session.

Not a smart way to go about things.

bug
03-22-2012, 17:30
How could one tell if he is a idiot?

Did you see the cheap gas station cigar???

Bruce M
03-22-2012, 18:20
Did you see the cheap gas station cigar???
:rofl::rofl:

OctoberRust
03-22-2012, 19:29
this is in FL? I thought open carry wasn't legal in FL...

RussP
03-22-2012, 20:17
this is in FL? I thought open carry wasn't legal in FL...See Post #21 and Post #37...

RussP
03-22-2012, 20:57
Good summary, Russ. That whole event was a PITA for the legitimate fight for OC and firearms rights in Florida. Within minutes of that starting up, we had calls from legislators asking what the heck was going on and threatening to pull pro-rights bills from the legislative session.

Not a smart way to go about things.Thank you...

For all y'all not familiar with Florida Carry's good works, visit their website, Florida Carry, Inc. (http://www.floridacarry.org/)

If you'd like to see how real OCers act on real fishing 'expeditions', go to their Florida Carry Meet-up Page (http://www.meetup.com/Florida-Carry/) and click on the Photos. (http://www.meetup.com/Florida-Carry/photos/)

Now someone is going to ask, "Hey, some of them are just standing near their rods, some nearer than others, so what's the difference between them and Mr. Traub?"

I'll invite rvrctyrngr to answer that.

Oh, and for any Floridians wishing to participate in some social fishing expeditions, rvrctyrngr, are they still held monthly on the 2nd Saturday of the month?

Mister_Beefy
03-22-2012, 21:16
The legalist asks, Can I?

The libertine asks, Shall I?

And the prudent man asks, SHOULD I?


well the country and this forum will be much better places once everyone conforms to your idea of "appropriate"

:rofl:

SanJuanTrout
03-22-2012, 21:48
We're thankful you're happy in Arizona too. You see, here in Florida, we are pretty populated and some smirking kid with a gun, brandishing a video camera, giving cops a hassle just doesn't seem wise, or safe with our "stand your ground law"

It just seemed dangerous and irresponsible. I'm an ex LEO and sympathize with officers these days, they have so much going on with gangbangers, officer involved shootings, budget issues, they don't need these cute little showoffs messing with them.

Obviously it caused a scene, I can assure you people fishing with their kids wouldn't say "he's exercising his right to bear arms" they would likely wonder what the kid was doing in public with a gun, that just scares folks these days when shooting occur so frequently. Better hope a legit CCW holder doesn't draw down on him.

Back in my day, my Dad would have challenged the kid and if he got a smart ass response, whipped his ass and maybe have thrown him over the pier.
Wow, Really because he carried a gun legally, whats the big deal. Only you are allowed to carry a gun( cop) my dad would have kicked your dads ass and thrown him over the pier

SanJuanTrout
03-22-2012, 22:05
Youthful zeal and arrogance. I wonder how the video would have turned out if some father saw the gun on the pier near his kids, freaked and beat the kid down with a folding chair. The kid would have reached for the gun, Dad would have beat him harder.

Hope he has to call the officer he harassed for real help some day.

Just asking for trouble and making gun toters look like pinheads.
He did not harass anybody. Exercising his rights. When he was checked twice he was the one being harassed. If Dad freaked and attacked a law abiding citizen maybe he would get shot full of holes. Good shoot.

Bill Lumberg
03-23-2012, 04:20
He sought attention. He got it. He didn't kill anybody. Sounds like it went well for both parties.

Bren
03-23-2012, 04:34
He did not harass anybody. Exercising his rights. When he was checked twice he was the one being harassed. If Dad freaked and attacked a law abiding citizen maybe he would get shot full of holes. Good shoot.

Yeah, alarming a few "undecided" voters and giving them a negative impression of gun owners really did us all a favor, too.:upeyes:

Sheepdog Scout
03-23-2012, 05:07
Quoted post removed

Bren, your post are always entertaining. :rofl:

Anyways. Was this guy breaking the law? Probably not. I don't think so. Is this guy a royal tool? Definitely. Was he looking for a confrontation with police? It certainly seems that way.

I'd say he got what he wanted. His intentions are clear within the first couple seconds.:faint:

Bill Lumberg
03-23-2012, 06:20
Win. .
Quoted post removed

RussP
03-23-2012, 07:17
This is obviously an edited video. I would like to see the uncut version.

I would like to see when he dropped off his fishing gear.

I would like to see how long he drove around, or how long he waited for a police officer to arrive, and hear his comments and thoughts while doing so.

I'd like to see and hear what happened between the car and the pier and while he was on the pier before he was asked to identify his gear.

I'd like to hear him expound on his, "Now that was interesting" comment that closed his video.

Is anyone else curious?

rvrctyrngr
03-23-2012, 07:45
Thank you...

For all y'all not familiar with Florida Carry's good works, visit their website, Florida Carry, Inc. (http://www.floridacarry.org/)

If you'd like to see how real OCers act on real fishing 'expeditions', go to their Florida Carry Meet-up Page (http://www.meetup.com/Florida-Carry/) and click on the Photos. (http://www.meetup.com/Florida-Carry/photos/)

Now someone is going to ask, "Hey, some of them are just standing near their rods, some nearer than others, so what's the difference between them and Mr. Traub?"

I'll invite rvrctyrngr to answer that.

Oh, and for any Floridians wishing to participate in some social fishing expeditions, rvrctyrngr, are they still held monthly on the 2nd Saturday of the month?

Thanks, Russ.

While we hold no ill will towards Ethan, we do disagree on methodology.

We don't seek confrontation with LE. We try to work WITH LE within the boundaries and scope of the legislative and judicial processes. We've had conversations with LE during some of our events, but no confrontations. Advocate and educate.

When we hold an OC fishing event, we park at the designated spot, and go fish. This group parked a mile or so away from the pier and walked that mile or so through downtown Venice...and you saw Mr. Traub's version of advocating OC.

Yes, we still hold our OC Fishing events on the 2nd Saturday of the month through out the state. Info is available at the links you posted. We also have a very active Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/groups/FLopencarry/).

Off topic, I got the VCDL update from Phil last night indicating NM no longer recognizes VA carry permits. Sad.

redbaron007
03-23-2012, 08:05
Well, I guess we can call this a learning experience.

#1-If one wants attention, it's pretty easy to get it...youtube;

#2-If one wants to challenge someone and fail, they can do it...trolling for a LEO to show off your pretty little thing works;

#3-the smartphone video camera is not the best cinematography instrument....:supergrin:

I support and encourage OC; I wish he had not gone on a fishing expedition (no pun intended:rofl:) to make his point. I'm not sure he advanced anything/agenda.


:wavey:

red

RussP
03-23-2012, 17:35
Thanks, Russ.

While we hold no ill will towards Ethan, we do disagree on methodology.

We don't seek confrontation with LE. We try to work WITH LE within the boundaries and scope of the legislative and judicial processes. We've had conversations with LE during some of our events, but no confrontations. Advocate and educate.

When we hold an OC fishing event, we park at the designated spot, and go fish. This group parked a mile or so away from the pier and walked that mile or so through downtown Venice...and you saw Mr. Traub's version of advocating OC.

Yes, we still hold our OC Fishing events on the 2nd Saturday of the month through out the state. Info is available at the links you posted. We also have a very active Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/groups/FLopencarry/).

Off topic, I got the VCDL update from Phil last night indicating NM no longer recognizes VA carry permits. Sad.Thanks for the insight and input, sir.

Yep, saw the update about NM...very sad.

rvrctyrngr
03-24-2012, 13:13
Thanks for the insight and input, sir.

Yep, saw the update about NM...very sad.

They dumped us, too, though we have yet to receive 'official' word.

AKmik
03-24-2012, 17:26
I just watched another OC tool doing the same thing. Irritating as hell, and again made us all look bad.

I am all for a 50 state CC permit and hope that day comes. But I would have absolutely no heartache if OC was gone completely except for military and LE. It just worries people, and brings out the LE baiters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFzH5Oe-YL4

sorry, I see no value in carrying an unloaded weapon, just stupid. So some thug can beat his ass and take it, now weapons free for the taking. Its good for .......?

jdavionic
03-24-2012, 18:49
I just watched another OC tool doing the same thing. Irritating as hell, and again made us all look bad.

I am all for a 50 state CC permit and hope that day comes. But I would have absolutely no heartache if OC was gone completely except for military and LE. It just worries people, and brings out the LE baiters.

sorry, I see no value in carrying an unloaded weapon, just stupid. So some thug can beat his ass and take it, now weapons free for the taking. Its good for .......?

So while I agree the guy in the video is not helping matters, I strongly disagree with the bolded part. Because YOU see no reason for OC, you are advocating that everyone else should not be allowed to OC. So because I OC while riding a bicycle because a) I'm allowed to, and b) my holster with the best retraint mechanism is my OC holster...if I follow you're logic, I should not be allowed to do so because YOU disagree. Spoken like a true liberal. You know what's best for all of us???:steamed:

AA#5
03-24-2012, 19:09
:steamed:

These videos kill me. I am no sure what would make any gun owner want to go out and bait the cops. Like it or not in todays day and age when an officer sees a weapon on someone not wearing a uniform he is probably going to investigate,that is a proven fact. every one of these videos is the same, some smug little smart ass proving that he has the right to carry, thats great.
The thing that burns me up is the attitude they take in trying to get a reaction out of LE so he can somehow prove that his rights are being violated. There is no winning that one, if the cop asks for ID he is wrong and abusing his power. If the guy strolling down the crowded pier full of sheeple pulls his gun and starts shooting and the cops did not challange the gunslinger, then they are wrong for letting it happen. Its easily twisted and can be argued forever.

This is not the old west, he is in FL where CCW licenses are very easy to obtain. The guy is a tool who is wasting the officers time, distracting him from his job. No one needs to know you are armed.

I have been carrying concealed for twenty years, five of which were in FL, and I have never had any issues with law enforcement trying to infringe on my second amendment right to bear arms.

The video proves Officer McGee was paying attention, if my family was out on the pier that day I'd be glad he checked that guys ID and varified he is legal.

CC'ing would deprive OC'ers of the attention they so desperately crave.

jdavionic
03-24-2012, 19:18
CC'ing would deprive OC'ers of the attention they so desperately crave.

So you think the only reason someone OCs is for attention...really?

kensteele
03-24-2012, 19:18
sorry, I see no value in carrying an unloaded weapon, just stupid. So some thug can beat his ass and take it, now weapons free for the taking. Its good for .......?

You see no value because you plain don't understand what is happening in this old video. At least you can ask somebody here to explin why a person in CA at the time would OC unloaded. Then after you get the facts, you can honestly "no value" to OC unloaded for you because you live outside of CA but at least you would understand why it happened and kinda separate yourself a little from the other anti-gun folks who choose to remain ignorant, too....maybe?

AKmik
03-24-2012, 20:05
Jdavonic,
I see your arguement to a point. Me, if I was on a bike I personally would look for another option for carry. Although I have this mental picture of a spandex clad bicyclist with a gun belt :rofl: I suppose CC could be difficult.

kensteele,
I definitely do understand what the video was about. Yes the ONLY option for him in CA. understandable, and a great statement he is making. "I will carry my gun its my right and your not the boss of me Mr. cop".
Definitely don't need anyone to explain anything to me, that is a pretty ignorant statement in itself without knowing someone. I was merely stating MY opinion which like your OPINION it is not going to change the laws.
I DO understand CA is infested with an anti gun attitude, and laws there are out of control, you couldn't pay me to live there. But even so he is trying to make a statement that he is exercising his rights under the law, I get it. All that aside what is the point of openly carrying an unloaded weapon? what good is it? Any purpose at all, self defense? A hammer would be better. Still don't get it and never will. He is open carrying a weapon and a camera for one reason, attention from LE. He gets it, it goes nowhere but youtoube, then he goes home to his room in his moms basement.
Here's another great one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUIxrfKPZX4



I CC for personal protection because the law allows it, if it only allowed unloaded CC, I would not. Fighting for rights is one thing but busting the police officers balls on the street will go nowhere.
The OP asked for Opinions, harassment or not. I still say no.

jdavionic
03-24-2012, 20:25
Jdavonic,
I see your arguement to a point. Me, if I was on a bike I personally would look for another option for carry. Although I have this mental picture of a spandex clad bicyclist with a gun belt :rofl: I suppose CC could be difficult.
I CC for personal protection because the law allows it, if it only allowed unloaded CC, I would not. Fighting for rights is one thing but busting the police officers balls on the street will go nowhere.
The OP asked for Opinions, harassment or not. I still say no.

First off...no spandex:supergrin: I commute via bike now. The bike shorts are the baggy mountain bike ones. I am working on another option for carrying. However for now, OC is the most reliable option. I am shopping for a fanny pack...I know, might as well carry open. The challenge for biking is to have ready access, but strong & reliable retention...while not obstructing pedaling the bike.

My issue with your comment was not a contradiction of your assessment on my OP. What I took exception to was your point that OC serves no purpose that you see...therefore you'd had no issue with the elimination of OC for everyone.

kensteele
03-24-2012, 20:26
I CC for personal protection because the law allows it, if it only allowed unloaded CC, I would not.

You don't understand unloaded CC. I get it.... it's not for you... so you put it down. But I'm still thinking you don't fully understand it.

Which is ok, if you wouldn't do it, I guess you don't need to understand it at all. The anti-gun folks don't understand loaded CC and they put that down, too. Understandable.

AKmik
03-24-2012, 20:56
Agreed guys,

My problem is more with the video clowns than OC.
They target the police to somehow prove their rights are being violated. It just drives me batty to watch these guys mouth off rather than just show ID and be on their way.

Its all just opinion gents. I am not working to outlaw OC, Don't take it that way. I do think that in the eyes of the general public or antis CC and OC are no different, which is why I frown on OC. It draws attention to the average joes ability to carry a weapon and it gives the antis more to work with.

Bill Lumberg
03-25-2012, 07:49
Some permittees who OC where concealment is legal are fools. Some are squared away. All who seek out encounters with LE are complete idiots. They hold ( and display for your viewing pleasure) every juvenile, narcicisstic,and cognitively distorted trait that anti-gun anti-permit groups incorrectly assume are present in all non-LE who wish to carry firearms. Agreed guys,

My problem is more with the video clowns than OC.
They target the police to somehow prove their rights are being violated. It just drives me batty to watch these guys mouth off rather than just show ID and be on their way.

Its all just opinion gents. I am not working to outlaw OC, Don't take it that way. I do think that in the eyes of the general public or antis CC and OC are no different, which is why I frown on OC. It draws attention to the average joes ability to carry a weapon and it gives the antis more to work with.

noway
03-26-2012, 21:19
Agreed guys,

My problem is more with the video clowns than OC.
They target the police to somehow prove their rights are being violated. It just drives me batty to watch these guys mouth off rather than just show ID and be on their way.



So what that approach, the persons feed up with taxes, shouldn't have throw the tea in port @ boston

Rosa Park, should have just sat in the back of the bus

And the Vietnam protestors should have shut up and not carry signs or protest

Must I go on?

Regardless, the OC'er did nothing wrong, was target twice for doing nothing wrong , followed the letter of the law in doing "nothing wrong" twice if I may state.

slickt0mmy
03-26-2012, 21:29
So what that approach, the persons feed up with taxes, shouldn't have throw the tea in port @ boston

Rosa Park, should have just sat in the back of the bus

And the Vietnam protestors should have shut up and not carry signs or protest

Must I go on?

Regardless, the OC'er did nothing wrong, was target twice for doing nothing wrong , followed the letter of the law in doing "nothing wrong" twice if I may state.

You're seriously comparing this clown to Rosa Parks? :rofl:

AKmik
03-26-2012, 23:11
Whhhhhheeeeewww....Thats quite a stretch there. Apples to Volkswagens.

Sorry, some smart ass with a gun and camera who heads out looking for confrontations with law enforcement is not even in the same ball park as Rosa Parks.


Regardless, the OC'er did nothing wrong, was target twice for doing nothing wrong , followed the letter of the law in doing "nothing wrong" twice if I may state.

Yes the OC'r did nothing wrong, and once his ID was checked and he was found to be in compliance with the law he was on his way. I do not feel that having to prove you are legal by showing ID if you choose to display a gun for all to see is infringement of your rights. You have got to know its coming if you are OC in FL.
OC in Florida is not very common, there are many many shootings in the state, there are readily available CCW permits if you feel the need to be armed, and weapons make the general public nervous. Like I said before, I would want to see him checked if I was there with my family.

RussP
03-27-2012, 05:09
So what that approach, the persons feed up with taxes, shouldn't have throw the tea in port @ boston

Rosa Park, should have just sat in the back of the bus

And the Vietnam protestors should have shut up and not carry signs or protest

Must I go on?

Regardless, the OC'er did nothing wrong, was target twice for doing nothing wrong , followed the letter of the law in doing "nothing wrong" twice if I may state.noway, which will happen first, the law prohibiting general open carry will be repealed, or the law allowing open carry while hunting, fishing or camping will be repealed?

Sharky7
03-27-2012, 20:55
We should come up with a Glocktalk drinking game.

-Everytime someone compares a nut to Rosa Park, take 1 shot.

-Everytime someone compares the police to Nazi's, take 2 shots.

-Everytime someone compares showing an ID to "show your papers" take 1 shot.

slickt0mmy
03-27-2012, 22:35
We should come up with a Glocktalk drinking game.

-Everytime someone compares a nut to Rosa Park, take 1 shot.

-Everytime someone compares the police to Nazi's, take 2 shots.

-Everytime someone compares showing an ID to "show your papers" take 1 shot.

:supergrin::rofl:

RussP
03-29-2012, 16:19
We should come up with a Glocktalk drinking game.

-Everytime someone compares a nut to Rosa Park, take 1 shot.

-Everytime someone compares the police to Nazi's, take 2 shots.

-Everytime someone compares showing an ID to "show your papers" take 1 shot.:cool:

noway
03-31-2012, 10:07
noway, which will happen first, the law prohibiting general open carry will be repealed, or the law allowing open carry while hunting, fishing or camping will be repealed?

Don't know, my crystal ball is broke and out for repairs :wavey:

Regardless he didn't break any laws & the LEO knew that and insist into encounter him twice.

mrsurfboard
03-31-2012, 10:12
:steamed:

These videos kill me. I am no sure what would make any gun owner want to go out and bait the cops. Like it or not in todays day and age when an officer sees a weapon on someone not wearing a uniform he is probably going to investigate,that is a proven fact. every one of these videos is the same, some smug little smart ass proving that he has the right to carry, thats great.
The thing that burns me up is the attitude they take in trying to get a reaction out of LE so he can somehow prove that his rights are being violated. There is no winning that one, if the cop asks for ID he is wrong and abusing his power. If the guy strolling down the crowded pier full of sheeple pulls his gun and starts shooting and the cops did not challange the gunslinger, then they are wrong for letting it happen. Its easily twisted and can be argued forever.

This is not the old west, he is in FL where CCW licenses are very easy to obtain. The guy is a tool who is wasting the officers time, distracting him from his job. No one needs to know you are armed.

I have been carrying concealed for twenty years, five of which were in FL, and I have never had any issues with law enforcement trying to infringe on my second amendment right to bear arms.

The video proves Officer McGee was paying attention, if my family was out on the pier that day I'd be glad he checked that guys ID and varified he is legal.

:goodpost:

mrsurfboard
03-31-2012, 10:13
Some permittees who OC where concealment is legal are fools. Some are squared away. All who seek out encounters with LE are complete idiots. They hold ( and display for your viewing pleasure) every juvenile, narcicisstic,and cognitively distorted trait that anti-gun anti-permit groups incorrectly assume are present in all non-LE who wish to carry firearms.

100% agree!

DScottHewitt
03-31-2012, 10:21
Police harassment or trolling for attention or both?

What say you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWghJrVeYA&feature=youtu.be

The problem with trolling for attention.....

















































































is sometimes you catch it.

Clearly, the video poster had an agenda.....

"Oh, is it just a car?"
"No, there's someone in it."

DScottHewitt
03-31-2012, 10:22
These videos are f-ing annoying. Give them you're g-dang ID and be done with it instead of being a know it all lawyer wannabe.

Please.

And buy a frakking windscreen for your camcorder!!!!!

kenpoprofessor
03-31-2012, 10:35
Whhhhhheeeeewww....Thats quite a stretch there. Apples to Volkswagens.

Sorry, some smart ass with a gun and camera who heads out looking for confrontations with law enforcement is not even in the same ball park as Rosa Parks.




Yes the OC'r did nothing wrong, and once his ID was checked and he was found to be in compliance with the law he was on his way. I do not feel that having to prove you are legal by showing ID if you choose to display a gun for all to see is infringement of your rights. You have got to know its coming if you are OC in FL.
OC in Florida is not very common, there are many many shootings in the state, there are readily available CCW permits if you feel the need to be armed, and weapons make the general public nervous. Like I said before, I would want to see him checked if I was there with my family.

I would also like to see ministers licensed before I see them on a street corner preaching, or in church. I'd like to see press credentials of every person taking pictures/video. I'd like gov. licenses to make sure that reporters report stories properly. I'd like to see that you're free from disease before you or yours get anywhere near me in case you're contagious.


I could go on, but "shall not be infringed" means something.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

noway
03-31-2012, 10:42
I would also like to see ministers licensed before I see them on a street corner preaching, or in church. I'd like to see press credentials of every person taking pictures/video. I'd like gov. licenses to make sure that reporters report stories properly. I'd like to see that you're free from disease before you or yours get anywhere near me in case you're contagious.


I could go on, but "shall not be infringed" means something.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

ditto


And how about the police stopping you while driving your car just to make sure you have a license and insurance with no reason outside of just stopping you?

How about patting you down, due to a bulge in your coat or maybe you wife is carry a gun/bomb in her purse or your kid having drugs in his/her book bag?

Now I bet if any of the above happen to you/yours your would be here post a whoop-haw over your rights being infringed by the police.

Rights/Laws where created for a reasons

just food for thought as you go thru your merry ways. I too don't carry for his action, but once again he did nothing wrong or illegal.

slickt0mmy
03-31-2012, 10:45
I would also like to see ministers licensed before I see them on a street corner preaching, or in church. I'd like to see press credentials of every person taking pictures/video. I'd like gov. licenses to make sure that reporters report stories properly. I'd like to see that you're free from disease before you or yours get anywhere near me in case you're contagious.


I could go on, but "shall not be infringed" means something.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

And I'm sure if you asked a preacher, none of them would have a problem showing you such credentials. They might think it's a bit of an odd request though.

But why would someone taking pictures need press credentials? Not all photographers are with the press.
Why would a reporter need a government license? I assume you realize the media and the government are two separate entities, correct?

noway
03-31-2012, 11:17
And I'm sure if you asked a preacher, none of them would have a problem showing you such credentials. They might think it's a bit of an odd request though.

But why would someone taking pictures need press credentials? Not all photographers are with the press.
Why would a reporter need a government license? I assume you realize the media and the government are two separate entities, correct?

I'm sure he was being sarcasmatic & in his example and how they would infringe on a few of the rights identified by our own gov :tongueout:

kenpoprofessor
03-31-2012, 11:21
And I'm sure if you asked a preacher, none of them would have a problem showing you such credentials. They might think it's a bit of an odd request though.

But why would someone taking pictures need press credentials? Not all photographers are with the press.
Why would a reporter need a government license? I assume you realize the media and the government are two separate entities, correct?

Really? You obviously didn't understand the context of my post, :dunno:

I don't have credentials to show to say that I am indeed an ordained minister with the Universal Life Church, and I'm an atheist :supergrin:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

steveksux
03-31-2012, 13:12
sorry, I see no value in carrying an unloaded weapon, just stupid. So some thug can beat his ass and take it, now weapons free for the taking. Its good for .......?It was the best way to get the legislature to ban unloaded OC in CA just like loaded OC was banned. That's how it turned out.

Randy

RussP
03-31-2012, 13:15
Regardless he didn't break any laws & the LEO knew that and insist into encounter him twice.The question is at what point did the LEO know he was wasn't breaking the law. Did you read my earlier post?
Some observations that have not been made yet.

In the first part of the video:Mr. Traub pulls into the pier parking lot to "go fishing".

He sees a police car. He sounds disappointed that it might only be "a car", but, then he sees the officer inside.

He parks in front of the patrol car.

He exits his car to "go fishing".

Problem is, he has no fishing gear with him, only a folding chair. Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html
Observation: What evidence did Officer McGee observe that indicated Mr. Traub would be fishing from the pier?

Mr. Traub told Officer McGee his gear was already on the pier. How did it get there and when?

In the second part of the video: Mr. Traub is standing on the pier, away from his fishing gear.

Mr. Traub is not holding a rod. Summary
Florida is not a traditional open carry state.
Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k) (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec25.HTM)

http://www.opencarry.org/fl.html
Observation: What evidence is visible that indicates Mr. Traub is engaged in lawful fishing?

Was Mr. Traub trolling for an encounter with Venice Police? Why, yes he was.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was on his way to fish when he exited his car? No, a blue folding chair is not normally used to catch fish from a pier.

Did Mr. Traub give any physical indication he was actively fishing while standing away from his fishing gear? No, he didn't.

Had Mr. Traub ever touched his gear which somehow was already on the pier? Don't know.

Would the police have approached him the second time if he had walked over, picked up his rod and actually "fished"? In my opinion, probably not.

Did Mr. Traub do anything to show, before police contact and questions, he was complying with the Florida law regarding open carry? No.

:cool:

Edited to add: Oh, and when he refused to stand in front of the patrol car, after being told to (how many times?), was that real smart?

slickt0mmy
03-31-2012, 14:00
Really? You obviously didn't understand the context of my post, :dunno:

I don't have credentials to show to say that I am indeed an ordained minister with the Universal Life Church, and I'm an atheist :supergrin:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Haha woah. I just reread the post and I don't know what was going on the first time but I definitely read it incorrectly. I apologize. :embarassed:

noway
03-31-2012, 15:14
The question is at what point did the LEO know he was wasn't breaking the law. Did you read my earlier post?


Yes I did and can't answer that. So he didn't know if the OC was breaking the law and how does that fit into his OC right not to be infringed upon?

So it's okay for the LEO to stop, investigate, request ID, callin and check out the OC twice ? ( okay the 2nd time they didn't call in or request id )

I can't speak on what the officer did or not know at the time , but still the OC'er did not break one letter of the law as it is written.

What happen, would be the same as if a LEO stop you while driving and ask you for your ID and name, just to see if your breaking the law.

What you be happy with that?

ModGlock17
03-31-2012, 16:22
There are people who don't carry openly at the piers. I am impressed with the Venice Police. They need to assure the public that they are on top of it.

The guy's a jerk, obviously not too worry about employment, probably a rich kid whose father hold some level of importance in the community. Just an arrest record would probably put him out of employment competition at McDonalds. He was more focused on being a jerk. He put undue stress on the cops for no good reason. I'm not an LE and I think people like this guy make gun owners look bad.

oldman11
03-31-2012, 16:40
Just a punk kid looking to harass the cops and cause a little hassle.

slickt0mmy
03-31-2012, 16:48
I think what bugs me the most is the bit where he keeps saying "I want to make you guys look good. I told the chief I want to make you guys look good."
No you don't! If you did, you wouldn't be out looking for confrontation in the first place! :steamed:

RussP
04-01-2012, 09:48
The question is at what point did the LEO know he was wasn't breaking the law. Did you read my earlier post?Yes I did and can't answer that. You cannot answer that? Or do you not want to answer that?So he didn't know if the OC was breaking the lawSo? Is that "so" as in, "So what that the OCer was not exhibiting any visual evidence that he was complying with Florida law?"and how does that fit into his OC right not to be infringed upon?I know in Virginia that would apply, but didn't Florida's attempt at repealing open carry prohibition fail? Florida law currently acknowledges ones right to OC under certain conditions, and the OCer exhibited no indicators he was in pursuit of any of those conditions when he exited his car.

At that point he was suspected of illegal open carry.So it's okay for the LEO to stop, investigate, request ID, callin and check out the OC twice ? ( okay the 2nd time they didn't call in or request id )You ask, "Is it okay." Being "okay" is subjective. The question is, "Is it legal 'for the LEO to stop, investigate, request ID, callin and check out the OC twice'?" Well, is it legal?

Is this one of those times where just because it is legal does not make it okay to do?I can't speak on what the officer did or not know at the time , but still the OC'er did not break one letter of the law as it is written.That is true and was determined by the legal actions of the officers.What happen, would be the same as if a LEO stop you while driving and ask you for your ID and name, just to see if your breaking the law.

What you be happy with that?Come on, you've been around here long enough to know you need an analogy that is in some way similar to the topic being discussed.

Choose one where the driver of a car does not exhibit behavior expected of someone legally operating a vehicle. :cool:

steveksux
04-01-2012, 10:49
The guy is a Leonard Embody impersonator, plain and simple.

Do something that is legal in such a way as to make it appear he's doing something illegal in hopes of getting hassled by cops, hoping they make a mistake and arrest him, make him famous on the internet, possibly rich in a lawsuit, while wrapping himself in some noble pretense of a purpose pretending to stand up for 2nd amendment rights, when in reality he's merely fighting for his right to be a dumbass.

Randy

RussP
04-01-2012, 11:46
The guy is a Leonard Embody impersonator, plain and simple.

Do something that is legal in such a way as to make it appear he's doing something illegal in hopes of getting hassled by cops, hoping they make a mistake and arrest him, make him famous on the internet, possibly rich in a lawsuit, while wrapping himself in some noble pretense of a purpose pretending to stand up for 2nd amendment rights, when in reality he's merely fighting for his right to be a dumbass.

RandyAll these years and NOW you sum it up!!! :faint:
Damn, boy, wish you'd given me that line long ago!! :cool:

steveksux
04-01-2012, 11:50
All these years and NOW you sum it up!!! :faint:
Damn, boy, wish you'd given me that line long ago!! :cool:Russ, are you calling me slow???

http://i2.listal.com/image/1891278/600full-forrest-gump-screenshot.jpg

:supergrin:

Randy

RussP
04-01-2012, 12:28
Russ, are you calling me slow???


:supergrin:

RandyDon't make me go all "RussP" on you!!! :tongueout:

steveksux
04-01-2012, 13:41
Don't make me go all "RussP" on you!!! :tongueout:I have the swear filter to protect me, the English equivalent of Deutchbag was *****'d out.. had to substitute dumbass... :supergrin:

randy

Sendarr
04-01-2012, 13:46
Back to the title of this thread. I'm changing my answer to BOTH. He was clearing trolling for attention, but I also don't think the officer needed to card him "just to make sure he wasn't a felon". He was doing something completely lawful, and he was obviously right next to the pier, and heading there.

I don't think that many LEO or protectionist would agree with me, but whatever. Many LEO don't think citizens should carry a gun in any way, let alone OC.

I think the analogy of stopping someone driving and running their ID is the same thing. I don't agree with DUI checkpoints either. However, checking to make sure you can be driving legally, and checking to make sure you can carry a gun have a slight difference also. As any cop will point out to you, driving a car is a priviledge. However, the 2nd ammendment and state laws extending circumstantial OC are not. They're rights. I personally don't feel I or anyone else should be carded and checked everytime I excersize my rights according to the state and US constitution.

Again, his actions were pointless, and possibly damaging to the pro-gun cause, they were however completely legal and protected.

steveksux
04-01-2012, 14:26
All these years and NOW you sum it up!!! :faint:
Damn, boy, wish you'd given me that line long ago!! :cool:

Russ, are you calling me slow???

http://i2.listal.com/image/1891278/600full-forrest-gump-screenshot.jpg

:supergrin:

Randy

Don't make me go all "RussP" on you!!! :tongueout:Well, in all fairness, I had to ask to make sure, just in case I AM slow.. :supergrin:

Randy

Bill Lumberg
04-01-2012, 14:48
The sad part is, I lived in the same area where he lived, with his busted up honda civic and his picket fence smile. In times of old, only one town would have known he was an idiot, the town fool. But on the internet, you can be a regional fool, and have a complete doofus following. Now I've transferred, and find that he's still in the same state. I think of him every time I flip past Idiocracy. All these years and NOW you sum it up!!! :faint:
Damn, boy, wish you'd given me that line long ago!! :cool:

RussP
04-01-2012, 14:49
Back to the title of this thread. I'm changing my answer to BOTH. He was clearing trolling for attention, but I also don't think the officer needed to card him "just to make sure he wasn't a felon". He was doing something completely lawful, and he was obviously right next to the pier, and heading there.Tell me, Sendarr, where exactly did Mr. Traub park? I'm not familiar with the area.

Also, was Mr. Traub carrying any equipment to indicate the pier was his destination? Between where he parked and the pier, are there other places where one could open a folding chair and enjoy the sunshine?

Last, is it illegal for the officer to check the identification and verify the background of someone OCing?I don't think that many LEO or protectionist would agree with me, but whatever. Many LEO don't think citizens should carry a gun in any way, let alone OC.You are correct. There are some in the business who hold those viewpoints. The open carry point is more prevalent than being against us citizens carrying for self defense....As any cop will point out to you, driving a car is a priviledge. However, the 2nd ammendment and state laws extending circumstantial OC are not. They're rights. I personally don't feel I or anyone else should be carded and checked everytime I excersize my rights according to the state and US constitution.Actually, Florida law establishing circumstantial open carry does establish a privilege for those participating in fishing, hunting and camping not available to those not doing so. So, until the law changes, open carry is a privilege extended to only a few, not all.Again, his actions were pointless, and possibly damaging to the pro-gun cause, they were however completely legal and protected.As were the actions of the Venice Police Officers.

SCmasterblaster
04-01-2012, 14:59
Police harassment or trolling for attention or both?

What say you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWghJrVeYA&feature=youtu.be

They all treated you with respect.

Sendarr
04-01-2012, 16:44
I'm not saying the police did anything illegal, at least I don't think I said as much. Just unnecessary in my opinion. Again in my opinion, the logic that someone's legal right to carry or status as a felon (or not) should be arbitrarily checked makes no sense. The whole motivation to run his license was because he was OC'ing. Now, I realize my state only has circumstantial OC, but we see guys who get checked all the time in OC states, just because they're excersizing their right.

So basically the only reason conceal weapon carrying individuals arent checked everytime they pass a cop is because he can't see it... Let's hope noone ever invents TSA style scanners in a sunglasses format lol.

Again let me say, this guy was an idiot. From the "black" he was smoking to the retarded way he carried himself and talked, he was annoying. Alot of the criticisms leveled about him here are true. He had D-bag written all over.

Also, I have no issue at all with how the second encounter was handled. Had the first officer asked him where he was going, and where his fishing gear was to verify he was engaged in or on his way to one of the specified activities, then I'd have no issue at all. I just think running his ID just to check if he were a felon was unecessary, even if legal. A lot of things that are "legal" or "law" aren't right or necessary.

On a side note, much of my family works for the state of Florida, including both of my parents. My Mother works for Florida fish and wildlife (aka FWC). Their LEOs run into guys fishing and hunting all the time, and often OC'ing. To my knowledge, they don't run IDs on everyone to see if they're a felon. Unless of course they're breaking the law in some other way.

steveksux
04-01-2012, 17:27
The sad part is, I lived in the same area where he lived, with his busted up honda civic and his picket fence smile. .Hey, I'll have you know I've still got most of my teeth.... the important ones anyway....

Randy

Bruce M
04-01-2012, 17:48
/...
" . Their LEOs run into guys fishing and hunting all the time, and often OC'ing. To my knowledge, they don't run IDs on everyone to see if they're a felon. Unless of course they're breaking the law in some other way.

Are you saying the only time the FWC officers run someone is if they are breaking the law? That they never run someone to check for warrants or history if they are acting suspiciously but have not crossed the line into criminality?

Sendarr
04-02-2012, 00:22
Are you saying the only time the FWC officers run someone is if they are breaking the law? That they never run someone to check for warrants or history if they are acting suspiciously but have not crossed the line into criminality?

I guess that would depend. Do you consider OC'ing while hunting or fishing acting suspiciously?

I've had FWC LEOs come talk to me and my friends before because we were out shining a light across a lake to see how many gators there were (this was years back). I think from his point of view it was suspicious, given that people poach gators sometimes illegally, especially after dark. However he didn't check for warrants or history or anything like that. He asked what our business was there, and looked around our area with his flashlight. I think if we had shown more probable cause for concern he would have gone further.

I can see where this guy OC'ing would alarm certain people,especially those with a fear of weapons, and I wouldn't blame the officer for keeping an eye on him at the very least.

owl6roll
04-02-2012, 11:47
That is an IDIOT!

RussP
04-02-2012, 13:00
I'm not saying the police did anything illegal, at least I don't think I said as much. Just unnecessary in my opinion. Again in my opinion, the logic that someone's legal right to carry or status as a felon (or not) should be arbitrarily checked makes no sense. The whole motivation to run his license was because he was OC'ing. Now, I realize my state only has circumstantial OC, but we see guys who get checked all the time in OC states, just because they're excersizing their right.Yes, it is understood you know the actions of the cops were legal.

The legal right to carry was not being questioned. He was not being arbitrarily stopped. Determining that Traub was in compliance with Florida law regarding open carrying was the focus. Yes, the motivation to check Mr. Traub was because he was open carrying. That is the subject of the law.

This isn't about other states. It is about Florida. No other state has Florida's law on open carry.

AndrewG23
04-02-2012, 22:26
see heres the thing the kid already had the tape rolling when he saw the cop "oh hahaha hmmm err lets see if the cop says anything to me" What a *******. I OC in PA and i always keep a little pocket cam on me, just in-case a leo stops me and my rights are heavily violated i have proof. But i dont start taping until hes engaging me. When the cops asks me for ID, THIS IS WHAT I SAY!!!!! Officer am i being detained or accused of committing a crime? officer "No". Me. Since i am not detained i do not have to show you my id, have a nice day ill be on my way now, bye....

Now if he tells me to stop or i am now being detained then my rights are violated and being infringed upon... Camera rolling i let him harass me keeping my mouth shut and when everything is said and done i tell him to show me I.D and Badge number.... Simple file a complaint take it to court and request the LEOs be informed of our right... Simple with no attitued.

This has only happened once. That kid was a ******* and making US look bad. I would have beat the **** out of him if i was the judge just for saying to the cop holdon let me edit this!!!

Bill Lumberg
04-03-2012, 05:30
Funny, I've never been stopped enough or had my rights violated to make it occur to me to want to tape a police officer. May be that whole law abiding adult thing working against me.

RussP
04-03-2012, 07:29
Let's get some background on Mr. Traub...

Gun owners to march through Venice (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110722/ARTICLE/110729877/2055/NEWS?p=1&tc=pg)

Ethan Traub Facebook Wall Page (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1695777809&sk=wall)

At the OC walk tomorrow, I plan on not bringing any fishing gear with me. (http://flaguns.com/showthread.php?14659-Open-carry-action-discussion&p=103952#post103952)Hello everybody, I am the Ethan Traub that is being discussed in this forum.

At the OC walk tomorrow, I plan on not bringing any fishing gear with me. Why you ask? Because it's not required by law, and if the LEO's and citizens always see us with gear in hand, they could easily draw the assumption that gear is necessary in order to practice this right of ours, and this is our right. Florida Statute 790.25 is neither vague or ambiguous. It is a law that was written very broadly.

For you who think I will be arrested for my lack of gear, I ask you this question: On what grounds to the authorities have to arrest or even detain or question me? I have every intent to go fishing if the fish are biting, which I will be able to observe other fishers in the area. I have another situation that is totally different but it has the same principals. Say that you want to go to a concert and you plan on purchasing you tickets at the box office. However, when you arrive to the venue the concert is sold out. You then turn around and go home. Does this mean that you had no intent to see the concert?

Also, the argument that our "actions" might cause more restrictions on our gun rights is unsupported.

opencarry.org discussion of the first Traub protest march (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?93160-Herald-Tribune-Florida-open-carriers-to-walk-through-Venice-on-Saturday-July-23d)Rich7553 on OCDO is Glock Talk member Rich7553.

'Going Fishing’ to Protest Florida’s Open Carry Ban (http://www.guns.com/going-fishing-to-protest-floridas-open-carry-ban.html)I don't think we really want to replace the law with anything else," said co-organizer of the group, Ethan Traub. "That could stir up an ant's nest we really don't want to stir up."

Goading an officer, or exercising a right? (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120329/COLUMNIST/120329462)

RussP
04-03-2012, 07:31
By the way, if anyone here on GT knows Mr. Traub, please invite him to come here and sign up, participate in the discussion.

RussP
04-03-2012, 08:01
Reading the links I just posted, especially this quote, At the OC walk tomorrow, I plan on not bringing any fishing gear with me.It begs the question, did he even have fishing gear with him that day of the video. Did he lie when he said he had gear already on the pier? When he pointed to gear on the pier, was that actually his?

rvrctyrngr
04-03-2012, 10:18
Tell me, Sendarr, where exactly did Mr. Traub park? I'm not familiar with the area.

Also, was Mr. Traub carrying any equipment to indicate the pier was his destination? Between where he parked and the pier, are there other places where one could open a folding chair and enjoy the sunshine?

Last, is it illegal for the officer to check the identification and verify the background of someone OCing?You are correct. There are some in the business who hold those viewpoints. The open carry point is more prevalent than being against us citizens carrying for self defense.Actually, Florida law establishing circumstantial open carry does establish a privilege for those participating in fishing, hunting and camping not available to those not doing so. So, until the law changes, open carry is a privilege extended to only a few, not all.As were the actions of the Venice Police Officers.

Russ, this may not translate well because 'quotes' don't quote, but if I may:

Under Florida law, individuals are required to identify themselves to LE if asked (NOT provide identification). Failure to do so can lead to arrest under the loitering law. To 'demand' physical identification is a bit different. No one is required to carry ID unless engaged in an activity that requires a license (concealed carry, driving, etc...). We don't have to carry 'papers' as a general rule. To demand physical ID, LE must have RAS/PC of a crime afoot (grounds for a detention).

All that being said, carrying a firearm in FL is generally illegal. Two recent rulings from the 11th CCA supports this and that LE have RAS to investigate folks carrying firearms (these decisions are in conflict with a previous 4th DCA decision on the same subject).

Having a CWFL OR engaging in one of the limited activities where OC is legal (home/place of business/hunting, fishing, camping, going to or from), has been determined to simply be an affirmative defense to the otherwise unlawful acts of carrying a firearm openly or concealed.

My personal opinion is that if Mr. Traub did not reasonably appear to be fishing or going to/from (reasonable from the officer's standpoint), then the officer had every legal right to detain him, run ID, etc., until he was satisfied that nothing illegal was afoot. That's his job.

Hope that helps.

Complicated and convoluted? Sure. But, unfortunately, that's how it is here for the time being.

RussP
04-03-2012, 11:03
Russ, this may not translate well because 'quotes' don't quote, but if I may:

Under Florida law, individuals are required to identify themselves to LE if asked (NOT provide identification). Failure to do so can lead to arrest under the loitering law. To 'demand' physical identification is a bit different. No one is required to carry ID unless engaged in an activity that requires a license (concealed carry, driving, etc...). We don't have to carry 'papers' as a general rule. To demand physical ID, LE must have RAS/PC of a crime afoot (grounds for a detention).

All that being said, carrying a firearm in FL is generally illegal. Two recent rulings from the 11th CCA supports this and that LE have RAS to investigate folks carrying firearms (these decisions are in conflict with a previous 4th DCA decision on the same subject).

Having a CWFL OR engaging in one of the limited activities where OC is legal (home/place of business/hunting, fishing, camping, going to or from), has been determined to simply be an affirmative defense to the otherwise unlawful acts of carrying a firearm openly or concealed.

My personal opinion is that if Mr. Traub did not reasonably appear to be fishing or going to/from (reasonable from the officer's standpoint), then the officer had every legal right to detain him, run ID, etc., until he was satisfied that nothing illegal was afoot. That's his job.

Hope that helps.

Complicated and convoluted? Sure. But, unfortunately, that's how it is here for the time being.That's very clear and it is the way I understand the law.

rvrctyrngr
04-04-2012, 15:16
That's very clear and it is the way I understand the law.

:thumbsup:

writwing
04-06-2012, 17:27
These videos are f-ing annoying. Give them you're g-dang ID and be done with it instead of being a know it all lawyer wannabe.

Please.
Right on!!! Why fight for your rights. :upeyes:

Sharky7
04-07-2012, 00:49
Right on!!! Why fight for your rights. :upeyes:

What is the rights he is fighting for? If it's an investigatory stop, he has to produce name or ID. See the Hiibel case.

Ryobi
04-07-2012, 05:33
Looked for attention got it. Police were spot on. And Dudley's precedent definitely applies.