US to give 1.5 billion to Egypt military [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : US to give 1.5 billion to Egypt military


herose
03-24-2012, 02:09
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-resume-aid-to-egypt/2012/03/22/gIQA3B3UUS_story.html

The Obama administration has decided to resume funding for Egypt’s military and will bypass congressional requirements that U.S. officials certify the country’s progress toward democracy, according to Capitol Hill aides.

A law passed by Congress in December forbids funding unless the State Department certifies that Egypt is making progress on basic democratic freedoms.

But Clinton will waive those restrictions on national security grounds,

Well we wouldn't want the muslim brotherhood to have to pay for their own bullets would we. :steamed: GOD these people have to go!!!

Breadman03
03-24-2012, 05:47
I'm finding it difficult to formulate a sentence that can pass the expletive filter. *I am really at a loss to understand how this administration can ignore laws and the Constitution to the degree that they are.

Merriam-Webster definition of anarchy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy)

It seems to me the only reason this administration fails to meet this definition is because they are part of the government, yet they are ignoring the law.

aircarver
03-24-2012, 06:25
& this money is coming from .... where ? ....:shocked:

.

chickenwing
03-24-2012, 06:36
Simple way to solve this. No foreign aid for anyone.

MZBKA
03-25-2012, 08:27
At least this has caused foreign aid to become an issue. We've been handing Egypt billions of dollars under previous presidents and nobody said a peep. Hopefully, Republicans will start pay attention.

Kingarthurhk
03-25-2012, 08:31
I am trying to figure out how Congress will blame this on the Federal workforce. I am sure they are brainstorming right now...:supergrin:

RCP
03-25-2012, 08:33
Simple way to solve this. No foreign aid for anyone.

Clearly you are an anti-Semite, Israel hating, un-Patriotic American!:tongueout:

walt cowan
03-25-2012, 09:34
and how much more oil are they going to give us in return?

G29Reload
03-25-2012, 10:17
No aid to any hostile power.

originally, we gave aid to keep them out of the Soviet camp.

Not sure Russia has an interest anymore.

We'll sell em stuff for their oil, i think they pump a bit. We don't owe them anything.

The Machinist
03-25-2012, 10:22
Yet another brilliant example of US foreign policy. :rofl:

walt cowan
03-26-2012, 06:37
Yet another brilliant example of US foreign policy. :rofl:

winning!:rofl:

evlbruce
03-27-2012, 06:55
Gotta love blackmail.

IndianaMatt
03-27-2012, 10:51
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-resume-aid-to-egypt/2012/03/22/gIQA3B3UUS_story.html



Well we wouldn't want the muslim brotherhood to have to pay for their own bullets would we. :steamed: GOD these people have to go!!!

What amazes me the most about this story is not how stupid the Obama administration is, but how little attention this story is getting in the press.

Doesn't anybody realize how much money this is!!??

Javelin
03-27-2012, 11:11
Nice!


http://dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/They-see-me-rollin-they-hatin.jpg




Sent from my Fisher-Price phone
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/customavatars/avatar2503_1.gif

G19G20
03-27-2012, 11:23
No aid to any hostile power.

originally, we gave aid to keep them out of the Soviet camp.

Not sure Russia has an interest anymore.

We'll sell em stuff for their oil, i think they pump a bit. We don't owe them anything.

Source?

My understanding is the money Egypt has been receiving is to keep them playing nice with Israel, as part of the 1979 peace accords engineered under Carter. American taxpayers have been paying to keep Israel and Egypt from warring again.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/node/729931

maxsnafu
03-27-2012, 11:31
Source?

My understanding is the money Egypt has been receiving is to keep them playing nice with Israel, as part of the 1979 peace accords engineered under Carter. American taxpayers have been paying to keep Israel and Egypt from warring again.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/node/729931

You're absolutely correct. Think of how much money the American taxpayer could save if we cut them both loose.

G19G20
03-27-2012, 11:43
You're absolutely correct. Think of how much money the American taxpayer could save if we cut them both loose.

Always amazes me some of the things I read on this forum. A shocking number of posters just make up whatever they feel like and pass it off as fact.

Reheater
03-27-2012, 15:48
Source?

My understanding is the money Egypt has been receiving is to keep them playing nice with Israel, as part of the 1979 peace accords engineered under Carter. American taxpayers have been paying to keep Israel and Egypt from warring again.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/node/729931

Not quite. But hey ignorance on a subject never stopped anybody in this forum.

Look fact of the matter is we sold a lot of stuff to Egypt. Example, they are the forth largest operator of F-16s in the world. We sold them D model Apaches (at over 30 mil a piece). We've sold them C-130s and produce M1 Abrams under license. We operate joint training with them under "Operation Brightstar" which is a major training event for both the 6th Fleet, the Air Force, and CENTCOM.

There are currently task forces of US advisers operating in the Sinai and other locations to help them learn how to use all the billions of dollars of hardware they've bought from us. We do the same with every country that writes a big enough Check. And we arent the only arms producers that do it. Think about it, when you buy a brand new car you get support from the Manufacturers. You think a country penning a XXX million to XXX billion dollar contract for a metric butt ton of Military Hardware wouldnt expect a little help in figuring out how to use it. I know a couple other pilots right now that operate out of the Sinai teaching these guys.

So yeah if giving a country 1.5 Billion in aid is what makes the difference between a US company like Boeing getting a Billions of dollars in contracts rather than letting them go to Russia or France, well damn if we dont have to sweeten the pot a little.

RC-RAMIE
03-27-2012, 16:56
Always amazes me some of the things I read on this forum. A shocking number of posters just make up whatever they feel like and pass it off as fact.

We wouldn't save money?


"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it is realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy. - Ron Paul

RC-RAMIE
03-27-2012, 16:59
Not quite. But hey ignorance on a subject never stopped anybody in this forum.

Look fact of the matter is we sold a lot of stuff to Egypt. Example, they are the forth largest operator of F-16s in the world. We sold them D model Apaches (at over 30 mil a piece). We've sold them C-130s and produce M1 Abrams under license. We operate joint training with them under "Operation Brightstar" which is a major training event for both the 6th Fleet, the Air Force, and CENTCOM.

There are currently task forces of US advisers operating in the Sinai and other locations to help them learn how to use all the billions of dollars of hardware they've bought from us. We do the same with every country that writes a big enough Check. And we arent the only arms producers that do it. Think about it, when you buy a brand new car you get support from the Manufacturers. You think a country penning a XXX million to XXX billion dollar contract for a metric butt ton of Military Hardware wouldnt expect a little help in figuring out how to use it. I know a couple other pilots right now that operate out of the Sinai teaching these guys.

So yeah if giving a country 1.5 Billion in aid is what makes the difference between a US company like Boeing getting a Billions of dollars in contracts rather than letting them go to Russia or France, well damn if we dont have to sweeten the pot a little.

Sweeten the pot with tax payers money, so people at Boeing gets billions of dollars in contracts.


"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it is realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy. - Ron Paul

Walt_NC
03-27-2012, 18:03
Not quite. But hey ignorance on a subject never stopped anybody in this forum.

How is his response ignorant? The main purpose of foreign aid to Egypt is to ensure a US-friendly stabilizing force in the region. That includes providing a check to what was formerly Ghadaffi's Libya, secure the Egypt/Palestine border and to not stir stuff up with Israel.

As I understand it, the purpose of the sale of weapons systems to Egypt serves three purposes:

1) It gives the US control over the preparedness of Egypt's military. If the Egyptians want to continue to receive the latest and greatest toys, the US gets a large say in how it operates.
2) The prices the US charges for weapons systems and maintenance offsets the $1.5B in foreign aid by opening up a new market for US products.
3) In order to effectively act as a stabilizing influence in the region that is capable of pursuing US goals, Egypt needs the military resources to make them a deterrent to big regional players like Iraq, Syria and Libya.

So yeah if giving a country 1.5 Billion in aid is what makes the difference between a US company like Boeing getting a Billions of dollars in contracts rather than letting them go to Russia or France, well damn if we dont have to sweeten the pot a little.

What's your point? That the US gives aid to Egypt for the sole purpose of selling them stuff?

GAFinch
03-27-2012, 19:16
No aid to any hostile power.

originally, we gave aid to keep them out of the Soviet camp.

Not sure Russia has an interest anymore.

We'll sell em stuff for their oil, i think they pump a bit. We don't owe them anything.

When the Islamists took over Iran, Russia was more than happy to step in. Just like in Soviet time, the only big things Russia exports are weapons and oil products. Not many countries left that still buy their weapons and I'm sure they'd be more than happy to add Egypt. Russians doesn't care the slightest bit how bad or dangerous a regime is as long as it's keeping their fragile economy propped up.

G19G20
03-27-2012, 21:52
Not quite. But hey ignorance on a subject never stopped anybody in this forum.

Look fact of the matter is we sold a lot of stuff to Egypt. Example, they are the forth largest operator of F-16s in the world. We sold them D model Apaches (at over 30 mil a piece). We've sold them C-130s and produce M1 Abrams under license. We operate joint training with them under "Operation Brightstar" which is a major training event for both the 6th Fleet, the Air Force, and CENTCOM.

There are currently task forces of US advisers operating in the Sinai and other locations to help them learn how to use all the billions of dollars of hardware they've bought from us. We do the same with every country that writes a big enough Check. And we arent the only arms producers that do it. Think about it, when you buy a brand new car you get support from the Manufacturers. You think a country penning a XXX million to XXX billion dollar contract for a metric butt ton of Military Hardware wouldnt expect a little help in figuring out how to use it. I know a couple other pilots right now that operate out of the Sinai teaching these guys.

So yeah if giving a country 1.5 Billion in aid is what makes the difference between a US company like Boeing getting a Billions of dollars in contracts rather than letting them go to Russia or France, well damn if we dont have to sweeten the pot a little.

What's your point? Egypt ends up with a ton of free toys paid for by US taxpayers (big transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the military industrial complex), was instituted as part of the 1979 peace accords between Egypt and Israel, and had precisely nothing to do with the Soviet Union, as was attempted as the explanation. What exactly makes my original post "ignorant"? My statement is completely verifiable fact.

We wouldn't save money?

I was referring to G29reload's absurd assertion that Egyptian "aid" has anything to do with the Soviet Union. I can't decide whether it was just ignorance or whether it was an attempt to misdirect from the real origination of why Egypt receives all this money in the first place.

RC-RAMIE
03-27-2012, 22:49
What's your point? Egypt ends up with a ton of free toys paid for by US taxpayers (big transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the military industrial complex), was instituted as part of the 1979 peace accords between Egypt and Israel, and had precisely nothing to do with the Soviet Union, as was attempted as the explanation. What exactly makes my original post "ignorant"? My statement is completely verifiable fact.



I was referring to G29reload's absurd assertion that Egyptian "aid" has anything to do with the Soviet Union. I can't decide whether it was just ignorance or whether it was an attempt to misdirect from the real origination of why Egypt receives all this money in the first place.

I understand now. I missed read it, my apologizes.


"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it is realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy. - Ron Paul

Reheater
03-28-2012, 01:07
How is his response ignorant?

Relax dude that wasnt so much a dig at you as a statement that within this forum specifically, any time a thread about Military Spending comes up there are about a dozen or so posters who always come out to decry it in a "They Took Our Jobs!" manner of ignorance.

1.5 Billion in aid is the only thing we have to go on here. Nobody knows where that number came from but we've got people on here assuming that we just write Egypt a check for 1.5 Billion dollars and let them loose in "Crazy Akbars house of Bombs and IEDs," or something. Id like to see where they pulled this number out of. Are they talking about the costs of the logistical train for our US presence of advisers and contractors, very good chance of it. Has that spending been going on for decades, yes it has so nothing really new here.

And to the people *****ing that using tax payer money to get contracts for Boeing, Raytheon, GE, etc is somehow abhorant, realize that we buy the same stuff. The more F-16's or Apaches a company sells, the further it displaces the cost per unit to pay of the R&D, so the ones that we buy get cheaper. Foreign Military Sales are the key reason why we have so many F-16s at such a cheap price. When you've got over 4000 built and sold the R&D cost across the fleet is pennies, vs something like the B-2 where the thing costs into the Billion dollar range per unit because we only built 20 of them to fund what was one of the most expensive Aircraft Development programs ever. So it laymans terms, if we sell a bunch of stuff to Egypt our military spending gets lower because we get a discount on the stuff we buy. Is it "robbing Peter to pay Paul" so to speak, yeah sometimes, but it also increases our Nations GDP and strengthens our Economy as a whole.

Reheater
03-28-2012, 01:15
What's your point? Egypt ends up with a ton of free toys paid for by US taxpayers (big transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the military industrial complex), was instituted as part of the 1979 peace accords between Egypt and Israel, and had precisely nothing to do with the Soviet Union, as was attempted as the explanation. What exactly makes my original post "ignorant"? My statement is completely verifiable fact.


Free? Who the hell said anything about Free? We sold them this stuff. Do you not understand the concept of how much the equipment we sold them costs? An Apache is 38 million a piece when its delivered to the Army, Egypt bought 40+ of them. They pay Chrysler a Licensing fee every year to build M1 Abrams tanks, and they buy the production parts from the same subcontractors which are US based companies. If you think Lockheed is just pushing out fighters for anybody to drive away and the US Taxpayer is left holding the check your desperately mistaken. We have people in Egypt the same way we have people in Taiwan, in Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Greece, .... I could go on for a while. Because they listen to their Generals the next time around they buy something. If their Generals all say "We hate this damn helicopter, because its always broken and never available to train," because we wont send them the expertise to learn to maintain it, then they'll buy more Hinds instead next time.

G19G20
03-28-2012, 02:02
Free? Who the hell said anything about Free? We sold them this stuff. Do you not understand the concept of how much the equipment we sold them costs? An Apache is 38 million a piece when its delivered to the Army, Egypt bought 40+ of them. They pay Chrysler a Licensing fee every year to build M1 Abrams tanks, and they buy the production parts from the same subcontractors which are US based companies. If you think Lockheed is just pushing out fighters for anybody to drive away and the US Taxpayer is left holding the check your desperately mistaken. We have people in Egypt the same way we have people in Taiwan, in Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Greece, .... I could go on for a while. Because they listen to their Generals the next time around they buy something. If their Generals all say "We hate this damn helicopter, because its always broken and never available to train," because we wont send them the expertise to learn to maintain it, then they'll buy more Hinds instead next time.

Yes, Egypt spent the money that US taxpayers gave to them on weapons that ended up costing Egypt nothing, in a 30+ year agreement that continues to this day. Unless your point is giving taxpayer money spurs spending with the internationally owned defense contractors that may or may not end up back in the US. ? Arming enemies isn't what I call "stimulus spending".

series1811
03-28-2012, 03:40
At least this has caused foreign aid to become an issue. We've been handing Egypt billions of dollars under previous presidents and nobody said a peep. Hopefully, Republicans will start pay attention.

The mind of a liberal at work.

Reheater
03-28-2012, 05:29
Yes, Egypt spent the money that US taxpayers gave to them on weapons that ended up costing Egypt nothing, in a 30+ year agreement that continues to this day. Unless your point is giving taxpayer money spurs spending with the internationally owned defense contractors that may or may not end up back in the US. ? Arming enemies isn't what I call "stimulus spending".

So you think 1.5 billion dollars buys them all the stuff try purchase from us? Ok well there would be your first problem.

Again nobody here can even offer a gleam as to where the article gets that figure. For all we know they pulled it from space or used money we spend on our military forces which just happen to be in Egypt, not the egyptian military. Again it's a fluff figure that people keep throwing around. You have this assumption that we just hand them hardware and say have fun which is a crock because 1.5 billion wouldnt cover the cost of what they would need.

I'm neither defending this or any previous administrations stance on a nation like Egypt. But were getting in a fit over bad journalism with no actual idea as what this 1.5 billion figure actually is.

RC-RAMIE
03-28-2012, 08:22
Is it "robbing Peter to pay Paul" so to speak, yeah sometimes, but it also increases our Nations GDP and strengthens our Economy as a whole.

Screw it I refuse to call myself Conservative from now on people might think I mean something like this.

MZBKA
03-28-2012, 09:51
The mind of a liberal at work.

Excuse me?

I've been against foreign aid for Egypt regardless of who was president. That makes me a liberal in your mind?

Oh that's right, I'm a liberal because I don't think Obama's mother was an agent of the CIA. Have you finished your tinfoil wallpapering btw?

MZBKA
03-28-2012, 09:55
Is it "robbing Peter to pay Paul" so to speak, yeah sometimes, but it also increases our Nations GDP and strengthens our Economy as a whole.

The mind of a conservative.

Reheater
03-28-2012, 12:11
Oh geez. Seriously have some of you no idea other than to pick through an entire point in order to pull out some sentence you can use for a bull**** point to a nonsense argument completely ignoring the content of the paragraph.

We spend 1.5 billion dollars to insure multiple billions (I think theyre on the hook for around 6 this year alone) in Arms sales. We put people to work in major plants like Marietta Georgia's Lockheed plant, or Mesa for Boeing. Not to mention the hundreds of sub contractors building the parts that go into making a fully assembled Apache or Chinook, employing thousands of people. How the heck is that losing?

We're not talking about handing a bunch of Surplus M1 Garands over to some back water military so they can say "we love you USA" we're talking about selling multiple billions of dollars worth of Hardware.

Seriously you people think we're bad off you should look at some of the Euro conglomerates like Airbus. The subsudies those Nations pay out to insure the use of the "local product" is obscene.

G19G20
03-29-2012, 12:02
^^^^^^^
All hail the military industrial complex! I assume you'll call foreign aid an "investment in America" like Obama does. In my book, it's a transfer of wealth from the poor and middle classes to the wealthy.

Reheater
03-29-2012, 12:16
^^^^^^^
All hail the military industrial complex! I assume you'll call foreign aid an "investment in America" like Obama does. In my book, it's a transfer of wealth from the poor and middle classes to the wealthy.

Right... Cause all the proles at Boeing and Raytheon just walk around in their blue overalls working away aimlessly to suffer the whims of their overseas and waiting for the two minutes of hate....

We export weapons. We make money doing it. The government spends less money on its own weapons because of it. And millions of Americans whether they are building circuit boards or turbine blades feed their kids and pay their mortgage.

G19G20
03-29-2012, 19:56
Eisenhower warned the future generations about giving too much power, money and influence to the MIC.

Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex. - YouTube

In conclusion, if Egypt wants to buy weapons from us, great. No problem. We shouldn't be paying to entice them to do so nor should we be paying to prevent other countries from fighting each other. If foreign aid is just some stimulus plan then it's more of the same bad policy that's gotten us into the swamp of debt that we're in currently.

itstime
03-29-2012, 20:17
Nice!


http://dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/They-see-me-rollin-they-hatin.jpg




Sent from my Fisher-Price phone
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/customavatars/avatar2503_1.gif

I chuckled at the photo.

I rolled at the Fisher Price phone.

itstime
03-29-2012, 20:28
Eisenhower warned the future generations about giving too much power, money and influence to the MIC.

Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY)

In conclusion, if Egypt wants to buy weapons from us, great. No problem. We shouldn't be paying to entice them to do so nor should we be paying to prevent other countries from fighting each other. If foreign aid is just some stimulus plan then it's more of the same bad policy that's gotten us into the swamp of debt that we're in currently.

My conclusion is the same as yours.

With that said I sure would like to know how much money it is actually. I'm sure the 1.5B isn't what it really is and where is the money going to exactly.

From what I read, we are giving them money and nobody is talking. Huh...

Reheater
03-29-2012, 23:34
Eisenhower warned the future generations about giving too much power, money and influence to the MIC.


Ike wouldnt have gotten his troops across the channel much less to Germany without the same people he "warned us about." Is the Automotive industrial complex a threat to our freedom because we buy vehicles from them for government use at every level? Oh, or how about Apple and Microsoft since we spend government money buying computers is that somehow propping them up as the "Electronic Industrial Complex?" People screaming about this vast planned conspiracy to line the pockets of a few CEOs are about one step away from believing the idea of a group of men, sitting around a large table, in a dark war room, with a world map, just eating steak, and ruling the world.


Heres the fact, all you have in that article is a BS number with no actual accounting of what it is and where it comes from. Keep screaming about us giving away tax payer money all you like, but we dont just hand them a check and walk off. If all we wanted to do was make money (or as you said shift it from the poor/middle class to the elite) we'd have sold them the Strike Eagles and AMRAAM missiles they wanted a few years back. That deal was worth Billions. We told them to pound sand.

series1811
03-30-2012, 06:46
Excuse me?

I've been against foreign aid for Egypt regardless of who was president. That makes me a liberal in your mind?

Oh that's right, I'm a liberal because I don't think Obama's mother was an agent of the CIA. Have you finished your tinfoil wallpapering btw?

Sorry. Come back after you've taken your meds. :supergrin:

chickenwing
03-30-2012, 07:55
I wonder how much of that foreign aid made into into Mubarak's personal assets.:whistling:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1317237



So I guess it's the muslim brotherhood's turn. Such nice guys too.

MZBKA
03-30-2012, 07:58
Sorry. Come back after you've taken your meds. :supergrin:

Two posts in a row without substance.

Do you think this makes you look intelligent?

G19G20
03-30-2012, 10:21
Ike wouldnt have gotten his troops across the channel much less to Germany without the same people he "warned us about." Is the Automotive industrial complex a threat to our freedom because we buy vehicles from them for government use at every level? Oh, or how about Apple and Microsoft since we spend government money buying computers is that somehow propping them up as the "Electronic Industrial Complex?" People screaming about this vast planned conspiracy to line the pockets of a few CEOs are about one step away from believing the idea of a group of men, sitting around a large table, in a dark war room, with a world map, just eating steak, and ruling the world.


Heres the fact, all you have in that article is a BS number with no actual accounting of what it is and where it comes from. Keep screaming about us giving away tax payer money all you like, but we dont just hand them a check and walk off. If all we wanted to do was make money (or as you said shift it from the poor/middle class to the elite) we'd have sold them the Strike Eagles and AMRAAM missiles they wanted a few years back. That deal was worth Billions. We told them to pound sand.

No surprise that someone whose livelihood apparently depends on said MIC would be so vehemently defending it. Gotta protect the hand the feeds you, right? This isn't a one year thing, but rather something that's been ongoing for 33 years and is only one of the many instances of taxpayer money doled out annually to foreign countries. For the record, when the Fed budget is over $4 TRILLION a year (40% of which is borrowed), there's a crapload of wasteful spending going on. Aid (bribes?) to Egypt to buy weapons from private corporations is only one of many examples. MS and Apple are other examples but are for a different thread. It's called fascism btw.

Reheater
03-30-2012, 11:31
No surprise that someone whose livelihood apparently depends on said MIC would be so vehemently defending it. Gotta protect the hand the feeds you, right? This isn't a one year thing, but rather something that's been ongoing for 33 years and is only one of the many instances of taxpayer money doled out annually to foreign countries. For the record, when the Fed budget is over $4 TRILLION a year (40% of which is borrowed), there's a crapload of wasteful spending going on. Aid (bribes?) to Egypt to buy weapons from private corporations is only one of many examples. MS and Apple are other examples but are for a different thread. It's called fascism btw.

Right, because selling Tanks and Missiles to Egypt has anything to do with my job as an Officer.

No surprise somebody that isnt in a job backed by the so-called "Military Industrial Complex" is so quick to call it unnecessary.

G19G20
03-30-2012, 15:11
We are capable of providing our own defense just fine without giving billions to foreigners.http://dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/quotYou-cannot-invade-mainland-America-There-would-be-a-rifle-behind-every-blade-of-grassquot-Isoroku-Yamamoto-Japanese-Admiral.jpg

Reheater
03-30-2012, 15:52
We are capable of providing our own defense just fine without giving billions to foreigners.http://dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/quotYou-cannot-invade-mainland-America-There-would-be-a-rifle-behind-every-blade-of-grassquot-Isoroku-Yamamoto-Japanese-Admiral.jpg

Oh Bull****

People like you would look at something like Combined Task Force 151 and see it as a gross misappropriation of government money. Others would realize that since the Majority of economic trade on this Earth moves by Ocean Freight (along with the majority of our military logistics) its important that we along with other nations provide for the freedom of the seas.

People like you see programs for 5th Generation fighters or the next advance in aircraft/land vehicles/tanks/etc and say "we're already the Worlds only Super Power we dont need _____" and just go about because thats your opinion.


No amount of armed citizens will stop a modern military aggressor. You can buy all the rifles and shotguns you want. You can place them behind every blade of grass. Military Hardware has far outstripped anything you could even dream of matching. I can kill people that dont even know Im there. At 5 miles from a target I can tell whether or not they are armed and if they are US/ISAF or something else. Half the time when we blow somebody up they dont even know we were there until their world starts exploding and even then they dont know where those explosions came from. The speed of fear (IE running when 30mm HEDP rounds start going off around you) is about 3 meters per second. My rounds travel at 2650 feet per second, good luck. Or you can deal with the fact that the Military Industrial Complex means we will never worry about an enemy massing at our borders with the intention of doing us harm and us having no ability to stop it. You want to reverse the rolls in the world, and be the country with a ****ty propaganda department trying to tell everybody their arent enemy tanks rolling through their cities and that the power isnt out because somebody just dropped a hundred cruise missiles on your infrastructure, than go ahead and stop funding defense.

Most of the people on this forum that go railing against Defense are the same maniacs that support Ron Pauls idea of buying a few dozen attack subs, a few hundred F-22s, and maintaining a beefy nuclear deterrent. And those people are idiots. Our national well being goes hand in hand with our ability as a military. If the world is on fire, people are worried about the fire and not about buying your stuff. So our economy stops and we find ourselves in the same isolationist stupidity that caused not 1 but 2 World Wars.


Freedom is having the ability to tell anybody that would challenge your way of life to F off, and the gun to stop them when that isnt enough.

G19G20
03-30-2012, 16:07
All hail the military industrial complex! Bow before their amazing ability to waste trillions while giving away money AND technology to enemies. But but but it keeps us safe. Please man, take all that stuff somewhere else, namely where people don't mind borrowing the entire military budget. That's not conservative nor does it keep us safe.

Reheater
03-30-2012, 16:28
All hail the military industrial complex! Bow before their amazing ability to waste trillions while giving away money AND technology to enemies. But but but it keeps us safe. Please man, take all that stuff somewhere else, namely where people don't mind borrowing the entire military budget. That's not conservative nor does it keep us safe.

Yeah that whole 55 years of Cold War against a country whose political ethos was in direct conflict with ours, it didnt happen. That Iraqi Army which invaded one ally and stood poised to roll into a second and put the worlds economic welfare in free fall in 1991, completely manufactured. Those buildings that a few dozen cave men with no effort as to threaten our very existence and way of life... oh well that was just manufactured by the government. Havent you seen the poorly put together power point slides and everything else. Either we made it up, or we deserve it for being so mean to all those nice countries, like Somalia where stealing freighters on the high seas and holding their crews hostage is a more lucrative job than say farming. Oh and dont forget the Philippians where 80% of the worlds trade flows through their waters but hey lets not send Marines over there to combat the Militant Islamic Liberation Front (No we didnt name them for those of you getting the joke). Hey its all the fault of some greedy war mongering capitalist pigs who arent real businessmen but war profiteers who would manufacture their own conflicts so that they can keep the pay checks rolling. If you truly believe this your beyond helping.

Guess what, one of the few things written into the constitution that the Government has not only the right but the duty to perform is to provide for the common defense. Now that might not equate to the simple idea of "unless they cross a US border/boundary they arent a threat," to you.... But to those of us that actually have an inkling of strategic or tactical knowledge we know that your an ill informed guard house lawyer and we know better.

The Machinist
03-30-2012, 17:25
Keep doing the Lord's work with your HEDP rounds, Reheater. America can only sleep soundly, knowing that people like you are keeping Afghanistan's opium fields safe from harm.

The U.S. protecting opium fields in Afghanistan - YouTube

LOL! Just found this little gem: Marine raises rainbow flag in Afghanistan. (http://www.care2.com/causes/marine-raises-rainbow-flag-in-afghanistan.html)

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/2924/2923373.large.jpg

No doubt, this is exactly what our Founding Fathers intended for our military. Money well spent. :upeyes:

Reheater
03-30-2012, 17:43
Keep doing the Lord's work with your HEDP rounds, Reheater. America can only sleep soundly, knowing that people like you are keeping Afghanistan's opium fields safe from harm.

The U.S. protecting opium fields in Afghanistan - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56XpRyNkf6w)

Yeah... cause given the choice between shooting farmers (whatever they are growing) or shooting guys coming across the passes and moving up to MSR Ohio to range attacks in Helmand and Kabul we're making the wrong choice. :upeyes:

Wait arent all you guys against the War on Drugs anyway?

The Opium is the DEAs responsibility. My job is to put steal on the forehead of guys that would blow up bombs whether they were next to US soldiers on a dirt road or a food court in a shopping mall in Denver.

Reheater
03-30-2012, 17:46
LOL! Just found this little gem: Marine raises rainbow flag in Afghanistan. (http://www.care2.com/causes/marine-raises-rainbow-flag-in-afghanistan.html)

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/causes/2924/2923373.large.jpg

No doubt, this is exactly what our Founding Fathers intended for our military. Money well spent. :upeyes:

Regardless of whatever that guy wants to do in his off time between the 12 hour shifts he pulls for 14 days in a row gaining him 1 down day (not including guard shifts/SDO/etc) he has probably done more in the service of his country and given up more of his adult life than people like you could even fathom.

G19G20
03-30-2012, 18:55
Yeah that whole 55 years of Cold War against a country whose political ethos was in direct conflict with ours, it didnt happen. That Iraqi Army which invaded one ally and stood poised to roll into a second and put the worlds economic welfare in free fall in 1991, completely manufactured. Those buildings that a few dozen cave men with no effort as to threaten our very existence and way of life... oh well that was just manufactured by the government. Havent you seen the poorly put together power point slides and everything else. Either we made it up, or we deserve it for being so mean to all those nice countries, like Somalia where stealing freighters on the high seas and holding their crews hostage is a more lucrative job than say farming. Oh and dont forget the Philippians where 80% of the worlds trade flows through their waters but hey lets not send Marines over there to combat the Militant Islamic Liberation Front (No we didnt name them for those of you getting the joke). Hey its all the fault of some greedy war mongering capitalist pigs who arent real businessmen but war profiteers who would manufacture their own conflicts so that they can keep the pay checks rolling. If you truly believe this your beyond helping.

Guess what, one of the few things written into the constitution that the Government has not only the right but the duty to perform is to provide for the common defense. Now that might not equate to the simple idea of "unless they cross a US border/boundary they arent a threat," to you.... But to those of us that actually have an inkling of strategic or tactical knowledge we know that your an ill informed guard house lawyer and we know better.

Your posts are so long winded and generally off topic that I don't have the time or desire to respond to the sheer volume of "America World Police Fck Yeah!" rhetoric.

Do note my bold above though.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defense?s=t


1. resistance against attack; protection: Two more regiments are needed for the defense of the city.
2. something that defends, as a fortification, physical or mental quality, or medication: This fort was once the main defense of the island.

I will never agree with you that giving money and selling weapons to unfriendly governments qualifies as defense as the Constitution is written, nor as the Founders intended. I will never agree with you that sending American troops to defend shipping lanes for foreigner commerce as defense. I'm all for defense spending but spending $1.4 TRILLION per YEAR isn't necessary to defend this country from Somali pirates or cave dwelling goat herders. Your attitude is why this nation is in debt up to our eyeballs. Giving Egypt a cool couple billion is a microcosm of just what the hell is wrong. But hey, you don't care as long as you get your slice of the pie.

G19G20
03-30-2012, 19:03
Yeah... cause given the choice between shooting farmers (whatever they are growing) or shooting guys coming across the passes and moving up to MSR Ohio to range attacks in Helmand and Kabul we're making the wrong choice. :upeyes:

Wait arent all you guys against the War on Drugs anyway?

The Opium is the DEAs responsibility. My job is to put steal on the forehead of guys that would blow up bombs whether they were next to US soldiers on a dirt road or a food court in a shopping mall in Denver.

So we're there for what reason exactly again? It's been 10 years so my memory is getting foggy. Oh that's right, 19 Saudis with box cutters.

Im curious about your Denver comment though. Since when is the US military responsible for domestic security of shopping malls?

Btw, if you end the War on Drugs then opium could be legally produced here with no need for troops to protect it (or the DEA to purchase....err....eradicate it) over there at a huge cost to taxpayers. Let's stimulate our own economy with responsible domestic production and consumption instead of putting cash into the pockets of Afghan warlords. The same warlords that pay for those roadside bombs you mentioned. Funny how that works.

Reheater
03-31-2012, 00:06
I'm all for defense spending but spending $1.4 TRILLION per YEAR isn't necessary to defend this country from Somali pirates or cave dwelling goat herders. Your attitude is why this nation is in debt up to our eyeballs. Giving Egypt a cool couple billion is a microcosm of just what the hell is wrong. But hey, you don't care as long as you get your slice of the pie.

You must have no idea how much little things cost in the military. Hell my company (8 helicopters and 50 people) is sending 5.5 million dollars worth of hardware to Afghanistan, and it cost 5 dollars a pound to ship it and that doesn't include the helicopters price or spare parts we will consume over deployment. that's just the tools and personal equipment to make mission.

Reheater
03-31-2012, 00:30
I will never agree with you that sending American troops to defend shipping lanes for foreigner commerce as defense.

You know those founding fathers and original intentions.... The first overseas defense actions we ever conducted was sending US warships to halt the Barbary Pirates in the Mediterranean not once, but twice. And that was done by Thomas Jefferson who probably had a pretty damn good idea of the intention behind the original Foundation of our National Identity.

G19G20
03-31-2012, 01:04
You must have no idea how much little things cost in the military. Hell my company (8 helicopters and 50 people) is sending 5.5 million dollars worth of hardware to Afghanistan, and it cost 5 dollars a pound to ship it and that doesn't include the helicopters price or spare parts we will consume over deployment. that's just the tools and personal equipment to make mission.

Does that sound like a good use of federal money to you? Money that is either taxed out of the pay of working Americans or borrowed at interest by the gov't from other entities. That's where that money comes from. It isn't just conjured up. People are paying to ship that hardware for that outrageous price (no doubt actually paid to a commercial org now)...is it worth it?

I was blown away tonite by a stat I saw on tv. The biggest lottery drawing in the US ever was tonite, for $640 Million. The federal government spends that figure in approximately an hour and a half, every day. So....does spending $5 a pound to ship military hardware around the world seem like a good expenditure? (Btw, you actually did admit to partaking...your job depends on the MIC and the debt and taxes accrued from the rest of us. Some of us think it's a waste of money.)

You know those founding fathers and original intentions.... The first overseas defense actions we ever conducted was sending US warships to halt the Barbary Pirates in the Mediterranean not once, but twice. And that was done by Thomas Jefferson who probably had a pretty damn good idea of the intention behind the original Foundation of our National Identity.

A lot more men than just TJ signed those documents. But if I remember my war history correctly, that action was due to congressionally ratified treaties that we had with France, as TJ was the ambassador to France at the time.

Don't misunderstand my foreign policy. Treaties are acceptable. Declared wars are acceptable. Im no peacenik. What I don't want is undeclared wars that never end and all we end up doing is creating more enemies while paying off people that the Average American Citizen couldn't stomach having dinner with, yet pays for.

Reheater
03-31-2012, 03:11
Does that sound like a good use of federal money to you? Money that is either taxed out of the pay of working Americans or borrowed at interest by the gov't from other entities. That's where that money comes from. It isn't just conjured up. People are paying to ship that hardware for that outrageous price (no doubt actually paid to a commercial org now)...is it worth it?

Don't misunderstand my foreign policy. Treaties are acceptable. Declared wars are acceptable.

Actually due to the sensitive nature of the cargo (ie really expensive or for operational security), thats what its costing the Air Force to ship it. Roughly $500K per plane, 90K lbs of usable cargo load... Price you pay for air lift. Civilian carriers are cheaper for some things, but then again stuff goes missing a lot more often which is kinda a big deal when your talking about the money and your combat effectiveness as a result. And it would only get worse if didnt have our foreign bases so lets not even go down that road. Thats also why we left so much equipment in Iraq. Stuff like tents we cant bring back due to EPA regs for soil contamination. Stuff thats HAZMAT like Oil or Tranny fluid, costs so much more to ship that its not worth it to bring back. So when you see these crazy talking point figures on dollars, "wasted," or "abandoned equipment," thats something people should know and remember.

Somewhere there is always some guy thinking that if the Military costs 5 dollars to do something they could do it with 2 we just piss away the other 3 for fun.

And you like treaties and agreements, great. All those CTF's I mentioned, the ones combating piracy are multinational. 19 Countries provide ships, equipment, money, etc to combat Piracy around the Horn of Africa. Operations in Afghanistan are multinational (ISAF). And Im not saying we're gonna use the Military in Denver, Im saying that the people that me and others like me are killing over in Afghanistan be it Haqani network, Taliban, Al Qaeda or whoever would just as soon be sending those kinds of attacks they were before Sept 11 (USS Cole, Our Embassy's in Africa, Western Citizens abducted abroad, etc). We as a nation feel very insulated and very safe because nothing has blown up in the last 10 years. The number of HVTs and HVIs we've killed or captured in Afghanistan has a hell of a lot to do with that. I just wish the Pakistani's would keep up their end of things.

Flintlocker
03-31-2012, 03:59
What the F are you people *****ing about. The US has spent trillions of dollars destroying and rebuilding muslim countries and you cheered every step of the way.

The Machinist
03-31-2012, 06:54
What the F are you people *****ing about. The US has spent trillions of dollars destroying and rebuilding muslim countries and you cheered every step of the way.
Thanks. You're proof that liberals are the most obtuse, narrow-minded dullards on the planet. How does it feel to be 100% wrong about everything you believe in?

Flintlocker
03-31-2012, 20:33
Thanks. You're proof that liberals are the most obtuse, narrow-minded dullards on the planet. How does it feel to be 100% wrong about everything you believe in?

Since you didn't and can't refute a single thing I said I'll just assume that you tacitly agree with it.

I doubt there was much a peep about the $12 billion that got airlifted to Iraq on pallets and disappeared in the desert. But if the US resumes long standing, decades long aid to Egypt, an ally, then your propeller caps start spinning at full speed.

If I want to know the opinions of narrow minded dullards that are usually wrong about everything, all I have to do is come to this forum and read a random post. Yours usually suffice.

Face it, most of you are hypocrites writ large. You whine about something and completely ignore something else. The inane, racist, ignorant tripe that gets post around here is almost too much to believe.

series1811
04-02-2012, 07:34
.... The inane, racist, ignorant tripe that gets post around here is almost too much to believe.

And, yet, you keep coming back. :supergrin:

aircarver
04-02-2012, 08:49
And, yet, you keep coming back. :supergrin:

What is it they say about doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results ? ......:supergrin:

.

FLIPPER 348
04-02-2012, 10:47
I doubt there was much a peep about the $12 billion that got airlifted to Iraq on pallets and disappeared in the desert. But if the US resumes long standing, decades long aid to Egypt, an ally, then your propeller caps start spinning at full speed.


Face it, most of you are hypocrites writ large. You whine about something and completely ignore something else.


well said

FLIPPER 348
04-02-2012, 11:12
We are capable of providing our own defense just fine without giving billions to foreigners.http://dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/quotYou-cannot-invade-mainland-America-There-would-be-a-rifle-behind-every-blade-of-grassquot-Isoroku-Yamamoto-Japanese-Admiral.jpg


THAT is a sexy M1!

....does anybody know the aftermarket parts/specs??

G19G20
04-02-2012, 12:44
Since you didn't and can't refute a single thing I said I'll just assume that you tacitly agree with it.

I doubt there was much a peep about the $12 billion that got airlifted to Iraq on pallets and disappeared in the desert. But if the US resumes long standing, decades long aid to Egypt, an ally, then your propeller caps start spinning at full speed.

If I want to know the opinions of narrow minded dullards that are usually wrong about everything, all I have to do is come to this forum and read a random post. Yours usually suffice.


Face it, most of you are hypocrites writ large. You whine about something and completely ignore something else. The inane, racist, ignorant tripe that gets post around here is almost too much to believe.

Egypt's new leadership isn't western friendly and is more akin to who we've been fighting than who we've been giving aid to. Just because we've always done something stupid doesnt mean the stupidity should continue for the sake of tradition.

Fwiw, I sure haven't cheered every step of the way. The Republican party establishment and the sheep voters cheer whatever they're told to cheer but Im certain Machinist didn't cheer nor did most everyone here that supports Ron Paul. I see a similar mentality on the left and the right where war and spending are a-ok as long as it's their preferred party in power. Code Pink sure disappeared in a hurry and what happened to all the marches on Washington and cries of war criminal at the administration? It went bye-bye when it became the left's wars.