In a Funk: Prepping and Socialism. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : In a Funk: Prepping and Socialism.


Bolster
03-25-2012, 09:58
I thought myself into a corner the other day. It was inspired by a righteous post by Mac66 in another thread:

Couple things that concerns me. First is the escalation of the "have vs. have not" rhetoric. I think this country is really being divided by the political "progressive' rhetoric by the left, including our president and by reactionary rhetoric by the far right. It is scary to see the toehold hard core socialism has taken since Obama has been in power. Active protests against wall street and business; More and more talk about limiting freedom of speech. Celebrities coming out of the closet proclaiming themselves socialists; the media openly embracing socialism and censoring the right. It is getting scary. I think in another 4 years, if Obama is re-elected it will be tough to turn back the tide. This of course means some type of cultural confrontation is brewing....

I agree completely, and I got to thinking about how prepping is a classic "individualist" type of activity...in prepping, each of us cares for ourselves and our own.

Yet with each passing day, this idea of "responsibility for self" gets pushed further to the margins of American culture. The USA is rapidly developing its own version of "Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz," which was the phrase printed on Nazi coinage. It meant, "The common good trumps the individual's good." In other words, classic socialism: The group over the individual. (With a powerful, privileged, charismatic, isolated, centralized, immune, and oratorically gifted leader determining what "group good" is, of course.)

So this got me to thinking about how .gov is keeping tabs on preppers. Some say it's so .gov knows where to grab food and water to redistribute when the S hits. Then I got to thinking about the farmers. They should be ideally situated to sustain themselves, right? But almost certainly .gov would federalize farms in a famine-type or food-shortage event.

I would imagine well-stocked preppers would be located and shamed, re-framed as "hoarders" in a bad event, and perp-walked in front of the cameras as the evil man who would not share his food and water. (And by the way, look at all the evil guns he owns.) This evil man was "killing children, and women, and minorities" by not sharing his supplies with them, etc. We know how this media script would go, and we know what howls for justice the public would demand for this vile sin of hoarding and selfishness.

In many threads we have these teenage-sounding pronouncements of how people are armed and able to defend themselves and their supplies against brigands. But brigands may not be the people coming for your stash-- it would likely be .gov, coming in the name of moral authority to redistribute for the good of ALL the people. And they have more armament than any of you do. (Except for maybe LongGun1. :50cal:)

But recently I've had a new vision for where my prepping will lead: after scrimping and saving for a rainy day, I'll be the guy who the government (probably local) forces to share his bounty -- and there will be no appreciation or thanks, I will simply be the villain for not willingly opening a vein and bleeding for my fellow man.

This has already happened financially at the fed level with the bailout. I'm the guy who saves and foregoes the pleasures of today for a better tomorrow; but the gov't bails out those who lived for the day, made the risky bets, bought houses they couldn't afford, etc. Responsible people like me (and you, I assume) get stuck with the bill. So why the heck should anybody be responsible in this society? Responsibility just means you pay the bill for the irresponsible. In a socialist society, after you wolf down your own portion, you work on voting yourself your neighbor's portion.

So this is where I thought myself into a corner. It seems to me of little use to prepare for more than a few weeks; if I have more than that, I think it will simply be "liberated" from me, lawfully and with the weight of morality and legal authority, by my government (fed, state, or local), who will be following the demands of all the socialists out there who know they can simply and legally vote my water and food, and your water and food, to themselves.

What's the point? :dunno:

Ethereal Killer
03-25-2012, 10:22
YAAAY!! you've reached the point they want you at!

See, you have no chance of winning when you play their game, so you simply step outside that artificial box they created for you and play another game entirely.

Here's a few things for you to consider:
-every major civilization was destroyed by itself as a result of it's policies and success.
-You cant do anything to save "America" it's dead. Forget about it.
-You CAN do something to effect your LOCAL or STATE politics tho (not so much cali tho).
-You can effect your PERSONAL situation as well as that of your freinds

With those in mind, turn your focus inward and work in the sphere you can control. the new countries are the states and counties and communities. If you shore up those resources, then what happens at the federal level doesnt matter.

worried about the fed enforcing it's will on you? well dont. as it gets more top heavy it also gets more hollow, meaning it cant enforce it's will effectively on people who refuse to participate or fall into the cracks. SO, learn to live in the cracks, there is plenty to sustain you here, and we have cookies!

Next thing to do is to shut off your TV. I mean just disconnect it and stop watching or listening to anything but local news. Certainly stop listening to "news commentary." It's all lies and bull meant to steer you in a certain direction. Avoid it.

Once you do that, just wait a month and see how clearly you can think! You already have all the information you need to make decisions about your life and what you think of the government. You no longer need thier help with that. Trust me, in a short time they will sound SO absurd in the stuff they say, you will wonder why you ever listened at all.

Once you have reached that point, things get real simple. It was all just a matter of phrasing the question correctly all along. Stop asking the questions they want you to ask and dont play the game they want you to play.

When you can honestly understand why the presidential election is about the least pertinent thing to your life, you will be on your way to freedom again.

eracer
03-25-2012, 10:23
There are millions of freedom-loving people in this country, and very few people with the power to forcibly take that freedom away. Even fewer with the desire to do so in a disaster scenario.

Do we need to worry about the erosion of freedom? Absolutely. But we have a remarkable system of government in this country - one that allows us to vote officials in and out of office. The problem is that most people lack the will to leave the illusion of comfort that we've been led to believe.

The true danger in this country is apathy. The spectre of a concerted violent attack by government forces on the people (like what happened in Nazi Germany) worries me very little.

The lack of votes for candidates who understand the precious purity of the Constitution worries me much, much more.

G29Reload
03-25-2012, 10:32
grab a shovel.

blueyedmule
03-25-2012, 10:32
Don't be the guy with the huge compound with razor wire around it. Be the guy nobody knows is well-situated. Focus on disappearing in plain sight, being able to walk down the street while not looking like an ad for 5.11, but being lethal underneath it all. Learn how to observe your surroundings while not looking like Tactical Joe on a clocktower. Be the guy nobody in your neighborhood would think to loot.

Prepping has value, being less than obvious also has value. You do not want to be the guy on everyone's radar, for sure. Maybe consider some of these things.

Dexters
03-25-2012, 11:02
YAAAY!! you've reached the point they want you at!

See, you have no chance of winning when you play their game, so you simply step outside that artificial box they created for you and play another game entirely.

Here's a few things for you to consider:
-every major civilization was destroyed by itself as a result of it's policies and success.
-You cant do anything to save "America" it's dead. Forget about it.
-You CAN do something to effect your LOCAL or STATE politics tho (not so much cali tho).
-You can effect your PERSONAL situation as well as that of your freinds

With those in mind, turn your focus inward and work in the sphere you can control. the new countries are the states and counties and communities. If you shore up those resources, then what happens at the federal level doesnt matter.

worried about the fed enforcing it's will on you? well dont. as it gets more top heavy it also gets more hollow, meaning it cant enforce it's will effectively on people who refuse to participate or fall into the cracks. SO, learn to live in the cracks, there is plenty to sustain you here, and we have cookies!

Next thing to do is to shut off your TV. I mean just disconnect it and stop watching or listening to anything but local news. Certainly stop listening to "news commentary." It's all lies and bull meant to steer you in a certain direction. Avoid it.

Once you do that, just wait a month and see how clearly you can think! You already have all the information you need to make decisions about your life and what you think of the government. You no longer need thier help with that. Trust me, in a short time they will sound SO absurd in the stuff they say, you will wonder why you ever listened at all.

Once you have reached that point, things get real simple. It was all just a matter of phrasing the question correctly all along. Stop asking the questions they want you to ask and dont play the game they want you to play.

When you can honestly understand why the presidential election is about the least pertinent thing to your life, you will be on your way to freedom again.

We are of the same mind - see my thread about 'There are no solutions. Deal with it!'

Bolster
03-25-2012, 11:40
YAAAY!! you've reached the point they want you at!

That is a pretty cool post, Killer, kudos. Some good thoughts there. Leaving aside how to avoid the socialist mind-games for a moment (and for the record, I already do hate TV) I still have this question:

Do you disagree with my main point that it's possible well-stocked stashes will simply be "liberated" by the government, and the preppers themselves will be shamed for being "selfish" and possibly also perp-walked for owning "too many guns" and/or "hoarding" during a national crisis? Since the well-worn formula is that we must hate them for moral transgressions to justify stealing from them, do you disagree that preppers are ready-made villains for socialists?

Preppers are sort of like TV-dinners for socialists. Prepper's done all the work, all the socialist has to do is heat (ie, vote) and eat.

(OpSec is all well and good, but any of us posting here are already known entities to .gov)


-You cant do anything to save "America" it's dead. Forget about it.

This is one of my dark fears. I think it every once in awhile, then shove it out of my mind. I'm not where you are yet, but the idea has occurred.

Sort of: "Once I abandoned all hope, I felt better."

arclight610
03-25-2012, 11:56
Sometimes doing the right thing means being the underdog, and facing hardship and ridicule. During the Revolution, there were more loyalists than patriots. The unaware people of today who think the government is too big to be opposed, are modern day loyalists. It's not easy staying free.

Sam Spade
03-25-2012, 13:32
Do you disagree with my main point that it's possible well-stocked stashes will simply be "liberated" by the government, and the preppers themselves will be shamed for being "selfish" and possibly also perp-walked for owning "too many guns" and/or "hoarding" during a national crisis? Since the well-worn formula is that we must hate them for moral transgressions to justify stealing from them, do you disagree that preppers are ready-made villains for socialists?

Your "well-stocked" isn't even a drop in the bucket. This whole thing comes across as a persecution complex; the government doesn't know who you are, nor will it waste its time with the 1,000 meals you have stashed. Really, you're just not that important.

Dexters
03-25-2012, 14:14
Do you disagree with my main point that it's possible well-stocked stashes will simply be "liberated" by the government, and the preppers themselves will be shamed for being "selfish" and possibly also perp-walked for owning "too many guns" and/or "hoarding" during a national crisis? Since the well-worn formula is that we must hate them for moral transgressions to justify stealing from them, do you disagree that preppers are ready-made villains for socialists?



They take over the mean of production - farms and factories.

Preppers as you describe them, have but don't produce.

Bolster
03-25-2012, 14:19
Your "well-stocked" isn't even a drop in the bucket. This whole thing comes across as a persecution complex; the government doesn't know who you are, nor will it waste its time with the 1,000 meals you have stashed. Really, you're just not that important.

I guess you haven't been reading / don't believe the other threads on this topic? The government is force feeding cookies to those who visit prepper websites; the consensus is that they do know who we are. I tend to believe the latter, you may not, but OK.

Do you honestly think a well-stocked prepper would be ignored by the government (at whatever level, likely local) if 100 of his neighbors were going hungry? Do you think a fed order to "round up grub and water" would not filter down to the local level?

What about farms, the "ultimate" preppers? Do you think they'd not be commandeered?

I don't think dismissing this as a "complex" resolves the issue in any way.

Sam Spade
03-25-2012, 14:41
I guess you haven't been reading the other threads on this topic? The government is force feeding cookies to those who visit prepper websites; the consensus is that they do know who we are. I tend to believe the latter, you may not, but OK.

Do you honestly think a well-stocked prepper would be ignored by the government (at whatever level, likely local) if 100 of his neighbors were going hungry? Do you think a fed order would not filter down to the local level?

What about farms? Do you think they'd not be commandeered?

I don't think dismissing this as a "complex" resolves the issue in any way; that's just name-calling.

No, it's describing behavior. There is no issue as you envision it.

Do the math. Figure out how many battalions you need to secure the farm belt. While you're deploying those across a couple of time zones to wrap up these farms, tell me who's locking down the population centers. Now tell me where those battalions are coming from. Neither math nor logistics lie, and neither fits your vision.

More math: Joe has a year's supply of food. There are 400 people living in that one high rise yonder. How long can the .gov feed the apartment dwellers using Joe's food? How many Joes do we need to feed a city for a year? Why should the .gov throw resources at that drop in the bucket?

Fact is, your preps are insignificant on the scale of 330,000,000 people, most of whom live a thousand miles or more from the source.

Bolster
03-25-2012, 14:57
Facts and statistics may (?) not lie but they're not necessarily favoring your argument, either.

Your argument seems to be based on Obama coming after MY preps, from federal level down to me. I'm not talking about just myself or my preps. I see local law enforcement spreading throughout the countryside and neighborhoods, commandeering what they can for the common good. They will be supplemented by deputized citizens (what are those numbers?). Taking gen-sets to the local gymnasium, finding stashes of food, scooping up power tools with functional batteries, liberating running automobiles, or whatever the order is.

Everybody suffers equally. All for the greater good. We all go hungry together. (= Socialism.)

You'd hardly need battalions to grab the food from farms. A couple gov't commandeered semis roll up, "requests" whatever you've got, loads up and rolls out. Heck the newscasters could handle it using shame alone, no force needed. "Farmer Joe gave us 400 gallons of Milk but Farmer Jim is hoarding his. Please fill out this poll: Do you believe that Farmer Jim should hoard milk to himself when women, children, and minorities are dying for a lack of milk? Here is his address..."

Local community volunteers knocking on doors, "What have you got to lend to the effort to keep us all alive? Can I come inside and talk? And look around? See your garage, attic? If you say no I'll have officer Bob come talk to you." It will all come smilingly and with whipped cream on top. A team effort. They'll work the moral angle like crazy. Billboards encouraging you give it up, to share, to be content with "your fair share." etc. We've seen it before.

My preps may not be significant to 330 million, but they would be significant to the 33 or 330 locals. Remember, socialism acts locally and thinks globally. Now multiply that across the nation.

Anyway, I get your position, and I realize you have a different view, so OK, gotcha. Moving on.

Sam Spade
03-25-2012, 15:07
Like I said: not name-calling, but behavior-describing. I suppose some would rather feel persecuted than ignored.

Best wishes. :wavey:

thesurefire
03-25-2012, 15:13
Fact is, your preps are insignificant on the scale of 330,000,000 people, most of whom live a thousand miles or more from the source.

This is how I feel about it. Lets say I prepped for 2 people for a year. Thats about 2200 meals. I live in a city of around 100k people. That means all my preps could feed 2% of my city for 1 meal.

Clearly that figure is useless in the grand scheme of things. Think of the energy to send 8 people to secure my preps. It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe you should be worried if you have 100 years of food stocked for a crew of 200 people, but at normal family levels there just isn't any benefit for the .gov to steal your stuff.

Yes its weird that the .gov tracks preppers, but I'll have to be honest I see more nutcases on survival boards than in real life, and I even consider myself a preppers, there's just something a little bit worrisome about how irrationally scared some people are.

Honestly I think the nuts that post on forums saying "I'll just take what I need, I dont need to prep" are much more dangerous to me than the government.

thesurefire
03-25-2012, 15:16
Local community volunteers knocking on doors, "What have you got to lend to the effort to keep us all alive? Can I come inside and talk? And look around? See your garage, attic? If you say no I'll have officer Bob come talk to you." It will all come smilingly and with whipped cream on top. A team effort. They'll work the moral angle like crazy. Billboards encouraging you give it up, to share, to be content with "your fair share." etc. We've seen it before.


You really think people are going to jump on that bandwagon when after the first day "they" form "raiding parties" and one out of three of them doesnt come back? How many do you think will show up for day 2? Why do you think preppers put such an emphasis on guns and ammo? body armor? night vision?

quake
03-25-2012, 16:02
...Local community volunteers knocking on doors, "What have you got to lend to the effort to keep us all alive? Can I come inside and talk? And look around? See your garage, attic? If you say no I'll have officer Bob come talk to you."...

Then "be officer Bob". I've said it here many times, but - "grey man" approach notwithstanding - the more 'interesting' things get, the more important it may be to be KNOWN in the area as one of the good guys. Volunteer with your local PD, sheriff's dept, whatever. Be a reserve deputy, volunteer to be a firearms trainer, heck volunteer to be a dept chaplain or volunteer fireman; but the fact is that "officer Bob" treats 'his' people different than he does the population at large. May be 'wrong', may be frustrating, may even be illogical, but it's true. In some larger metropolitan areas this may not be a realistic (or at least easy) thing to do, but imo it's worth doing as much as you can in this regard.

Think of it from officer Bob's point view. When he shows up in your driveway, would you rather he sees you as a stranger that he has no previous interaction with; a stranger who may or may not be rational and/or dangerous? Or would you rather he see you as the volunteer who helped direct traffic for him last week, or see you as the dept chaplain who he's seen taking care of kids whose parents just got carted off, or see you as the guy who's helped new recruits learn to shoot respectably...?

The grey man thing makes sense in some cases and to some degree, but the grey man is an inherently unknown quantity; and there are absolutely times where it's much better to be a "known good guy" than to be an unknown quantity.

Bolster
03-25-2012, 18:01
Well Quake, that's the conclusion I keep coming to...the person who has the best chance of living through the next serious event is, indeed, Officer Bob (and Sargent Jim, etc)--provided they weren't ordered to storm the burning building, or defuse the bomb, etc. Not to say LEO and .mil don't face their own dangers, they obviously do. But survival wise, if there's not an imminent external threat (think famine, not invasion), then they've got an advantage, too.

In this particular funk I'm in (and I appreciate all those who are trying to get me out of it!) I keep thinking that those who are WITH and FOR .gov will be in the best shape of all, in a socialist environment. They have a recognized clan they belong to, whose unspoken rule #1 is preservation of their group. They have been given moral authority. They are trained and well armed. And they are tasked with the "common good," not your individual good. And that is a conclusion I do not particularly enjoy reaching. As Etherial would say, "Now they're in your head, and they've got you thinking what they want you to think: Join the collective or surrender to the collective."

:steamed:

blueyedmule
03-25-2012, 19:02
The grey man thing makes sense in some cases and to some degree, but the grey man is an inherently unknown quantity; and there are absolutely times where it's much better to be a "known good guy" than to be an unknown quantity.

In my parents' home town of 1200 I'd be happy to be known. In this valley of a quarter million I'm not so sure I do; however, having an 'in' with the local LEO isn't a bad idea. Being connected on the other side of the Blue Line is an option. It's always good to have friends. A friend of mine is considering joining the Oregon militia--not Guard/Reserve, we have another layer of military that is solely under the Governor's command. I think our state is unique in that regard.

lawman800
03-25-2012, 23:01
I don't think the feds might get to this level as much as the socialist CA government will and the LA city government will... they might be the ones with their celebrity friends pushing us with their pleas to give it up for the common good.

TangoFoxtrot
03-26-2012, 05:17
YAAAY!! you've reached the point they want you at!

See, you have no chance of winning when you play their game, so you simply step outside that artificial box they created for you and play another game entirely.

Here's a few things for you to consider:
-every major civilization was destroyed by itself as a result of it's policies and success.
-You cant do anything to save "America" it's dead. Forget about it.
-You CAN do something to effect your LOCAL or STATE politics tho (not so much cali tho).
-You can effect your PERSONAL situation as well as that of your freinds

With those in mind, turn your focus inward and work in the sphere you can control. the new countries are the states and counties and communities. If you shore up those resources, then what happens at the federal level doesnt matter.

worried about the fed enforcing it's will on you? well dont. as it gets more top heavy it also gets more hollow, meaning it cant enforce it's will effectively on people who refuse to participate or fall into the cracks. SO, learn to live in the cracks, there is plenty to sustain you here, and we have cookies!

Next thing to do is to shut off your TV. I mean just disconnect it and stop watching or listening to anything but local news. Certainly stop listening to "news commentary." It's all lies and bull meant to steer you in a certain direction. Avoid it.

Once you do that, just wait a month and see how clearly you can think! You already have all the information you need to make decisions about your life and what you think of the government. You no longer need thier help with that. Trust me, in a short time they will sound SO absurd in the stuff they say, you will wonder why you ever listened at all.

Once you have reached that point, things get real simple. It was all just a matter of phrasing the question correctly all along. Stop asking the questions they want you to ask and dont play the game they want you to play.

When you can honestly understand why the presidential election is about the least pertinent thing to your life, you will be on your way to freedom again.

Freedom it what you make it! Like you said don't play their game and move outside the box, and turn it around on them.
* Rhetioric
* Threats
* Intimidation
* Corruption

These are the key things governments do to munipulate the masses. Especially our government, if you let them. Also remember money is power.

Glock30Eric
03-26-2012, 05:51
I am with you Bolster. You need to get out of Kalifornia.

Big Bird
03-26-2012, 06:30
There's one way for sure to go under the radar if you truly fear the .gov...

Get off the internet. Problem solved.

ArmoryDoc
03-26-2012, 08:14
To the OP, I see things just a touch different. I don't see the .gov as wanting your stuff. If they're watching you it's for another reason. That being because you are prepping to be a holdout. An instigator, an uncooperative antagonist, a possible threat, one who is willing to stand against the .gov and think and act on your own. If they're watching I think this would be the real reason. My thoughts and a $1.25 will get you a cheap coffee.

jason10mm
03-26-2012, 08:27
We need to examine what the gov't has done in the past. In Katrina they DID go door to door, correct? I believe firearms were their main goal to prevent arming of local gangs. In that situation they wanted everybody OUT, so getting food preps was not necessary.

The fed has confiscated gold in the past, but that required a certain level of high functioning society, not sure anyone could really do that in a chaotic situation.

So I think you don't have much to fear from the feds coming for your preps, more from local gov't. If you are in an area that can be cut off and isolated for an extended period of time you may have folks get desperate enough to start raiding for food/water and have local gov't officials start trying to tap into hoarded supplies. They don't really need to go door to door, just advertize at whatever food bank they are running that any neighbor who "turns in" a prepper gets an extra ration. If food is really scarse then they may take notice of who shows up to get a food hand-out and who doesn't. They may be grateful that some folks are self-sufficient, or they may feel like they can gain popularity with the masses by crucifying the few, no matter how shortlived the windfall may be. Remember, politicians want POWER, keeping an area dependent on you for food and water equals POWER. But this scenario is pretty hypothetical. In most cases you are better off just leaving the disaster zone and should prepare accordingly.

So for sure don't do anything that blatantly demonstrates your prepper supplies (like sitting on your porch eating cookies while your neighbors are digging up worms). Be aware who your kids might have talked to and have a plan to accomodate them (maybe some cheap food preps and water purification tablets to use as handouts). I feel that the raise the drawbridge/flood the moat type isolationist preppers, unless they can evac to a remote location, are asking for trouble if they don't have some level of crowd management/community leadership element in the works. Cutting ties with your neighbors just means you will be alone. A lot of federal disaster management involves removing folks in the affected area until power/water can be restored, so staying in place might put you at odds with the relief forces. Just riding out a hurricane or ice storm is unlikely to be so prolonged folks start raiding for food or the gov't starts taking food preps. No folks with heavy equipment or gas supplies, that might be another matter.

bdcochran
03-26-2012, 09:18
My father was on the Honolulu at Pearl Harbor. I have known survivors of the Holocaust, the bombing of Japan, and the Eastern Front.

The people had three things in common: 1. luck; 2. the ability to adjust; and 3. they got out of harm's way.

Mel Tappen was a survival writer before your time. He wrote all about guns. If you visited him on his farm in Oregon, you found a man in a wheel chair. What was his key to survival? Marrying a rich woman.

Throughout history, there has always been the ability of a thief, a criminal gang or an organized government to take away anything that you own, including your life. It isn't decreased because you own the latest firearm or because you live in a rural area.

Your chances of ending up a statistic that didn't survive is reduced if you are in good health, have skills, have awareness, and have a safety net.

Most of the people on this forum are older and already know the contents of the previous paragraph.

When you get anxious, I am reminded of myself when I found a newspaper article about my dad's ship visiting Germany and meeting the German naval people in the 1930s. Didn't people know war was coming and do something about it (like run) I asked. He said people knew that war was coming, but they didn't know when.

Bolster, we can have and probably will have another burn out here in LA. If you had moved to Arizona or Texas within the last 10 years, you would have been exposed to the largest brush fires in the history of the country as well. So, if you hit the gym today, keep the doctor appointment, and can sleep at night, you are doing ok. :wavey:

arclight610
03-26-2012, 10:18
No, it's describing behavior. There is no issue as you envision it.

Do the math. Figure out how many battalions you need to secure the farm belt. While you're deploying those across a couple of time zones to wrap up these farms, tell me who's locking down the population centers. Now tell me where those battalions are coming from. Neither math nor logistics lie, and neither fits your vision.

More math: Joe has a year's supply of food. There are 400 people living in that one high rise yonder. How long can the .gov feed the apartment dwellers using Joe's food? How many Joes do we need to feed a city for a year? Why should the .gov throw resources at that drop in the bucket?

Fact is, your preps are insignificant on the scale of 330,000,000 people, most of whom live a thousand miles or more from the source.

They aren't going to give the the preps to 400 random people. Votes and elections don't matter anymore after the SHTF for the government. However, they might taken them from one family to give to another. They might take from prepper Bob to give to Doctor Dave, the civilian doctor at Outpost 14 who tends to the soldiers. In exchange for his medical expertise and cooperation, the government agrees to provide his family with steady food and amenities.

WolfNotSheep
03-26-2012, 11:10
There are only two things in this life; those things which you can control and those things which you can't. This saying goes hand in hand with hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. Do what you reasonably can to prepare yourself and your own and, pardon my language, fu*k every one who would stand in your way.

Be a good man. Help those you can and who are worth your while. Live by a moral code and stick to it, unwaveringly. Don't put yourself into compromising situations. Be ready to face whatever comes, but enjoy the scenery along the way. Always listen to your conscience. Never make a decision you'd be ashamed to explain to your grandmother. And, no matter what, stand and live as a free man.

Kieller
03-26-2012, 11:11
The grey man thing makes sense in some cases and to some degree, but the grey man is an inherently unknown quantity; and there are absolutely times where it's much better to be a "known good guy" than to be an unknown quantity.

Agreed.

I believe that the man power of the local/state/national gubermint will be stretched way too thin for them to start knocking on everyone's door that they think have more than a couple week's worth of food. (if it were a national event)

The only major threat would come from the local/regional folks. In that case, having a good rep among the community would help your case infinitely. Granted, you will most likely be asked upon to perform a lot of tasks for the community but at least you wouldn't have a target on your head.

During Katrina many of the public servants saw to their own and that created a shortage of man power at the high point of the crisis. Only after departments from other states started showing up did they start confiscating on a larger scale. Now imagine all of the communities facing a major or even minor event at the same time and there is no one to send in for reinforcements...:dunno:

It's all hypothetical.

Look at it this way Bolster, its better to have and not need than to need and not have. If it came down to needing preps and you didn't prep because you played the hypothetical merry-go-round, how would you feel then? Probably a LOT worse than you do now. At least with the preps you have more options than if you were without.

Bolster
03-26-2012, 11:52
Good replies, all. Thanks.

I guess for me it comes down to the number of self-sufficiency days I'm prepping for...3 (often recommended by .gov) 7, 30, 90, 180, 360? My hunch at this point is that (living in LA mind you, where everybody has their nose in everybody else's affairs) a 30 day prep could go under the radar screen, but a 90 prep might be at risk for confiscation, and anything more than that will just end up feeding the socialists.

If I were rural I'm sure that number would extend longer. So thinking this over, I've decided that I'm shooting for 30 days self-sufficiency, which is probably better than 98% of my neighbors. Call me crazy, but I'd rather get caught short, than have my preps taken from me. I'm done with always being the responsible guy from which society takes; yes, the bailouts and recent socialization of the USA has pissed me off that bad.

You may say I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face and I'd say, yes, I'm willing to do that. Or you might say that Atlas always has the option of shrugging. After 30 days I'm shrugging.

bdcochran
03-26-2012, 12:24
"I believe that the man power of the local/state/national gubermint will be stretched way too thin for them to start knocking on everyone's door that they think have more than a couple week's worth of food. (if it were a national event)"

Happened in the Ukraine in the 1930s. Before gps, computers, internal passports, wide spread use of cameras. When farmers had "ample opportunity" to hide food. The Reds absolutely went door to door seizing food. I am one of the few people has read the accounts of what happened in the 1920s and the 1930s in the Soviet Union. Anything that you cannot imagine happening can and will be done.

Sherman had two columns marching to the sea. Knocked on every door. They really did. What wasn't taken was destroyed.

Then again, the independent farmers disappeared asap as the Red Chinese took over.

By 1945, even the French farmers were starving because the food was being taken. Being rural was "good", but not a guarantee of survival. For gosh sakes, read about the German created famine in Athens, Greece during WW2 and the hundreds of thousands who died there.

Oh gee. Research the population of Nice, France. Occupied by the Italians during WW2. No destruction. Population decreased!

Liked the actress Audrey Hepburn. Nearly starved to death under the German occupation.

All you need to do is to control the fuel supply, food chain and send a few people door to door.

If you want to prep for a year, ok. If you want to feed your neighbors, ok. If you want to discuss morality, the bible or how you will act, ok.

My focus is on what I need to do in the first 30-60-90 days and what other people will do during that same time. (BIG PERIOD). Bolster, you think about what your neighbors will do when 98% are unprepared. You think about human biology and physiology and how disease, lack of water, lack of energy, lack of food, lack of medicine will factor into other people and how it will affect you.

If you make it through the first 30 days and 98% of the other people have not, you are in good shape.

Forget the bs about rural vs. urban. If the local water supply is shut off for just a week, a lot of people are going to die, rural or urban. They will die sooner from lack of water or bad water than they will die for lack of a hamburger. Bolster, if you can go into a sewer line (read LA river) and come out with clean water, you are way ahead.

Ruble Noon
03-26-2012, 16:32
No, it's describing behavior. There is no issue as you envision it.

Do the math. Figure out how many battalions you need to secure the farm belt. While you're deploying those across a couple of time zones to wrap up these farms, tell me who's locking down the population centers. Now tell me where those battalions are coming from. Neither math nor logistics lie, and neither fits your vision.

More math: Joe has a year's supply of food. There are 400 people living in that one high rise yonder. How long can the .gov feed the apartment dwellers using Joe's food? How many Joes do we need to feed a city for a year? Why should the .gov throw resources at that drop in the bucket?

Fact is, your preps are insignificant on the scale of 330,000,000 people, most of whom live a thousand miles or more from the source.

Good points Sam. However we shouldn't lose sight of who we are dealing with. The government would be perfectly fine with confiscating food for redistribution at a net loss.

UneasyRider
03-26-2012, 18:36
When the end is near get your butt off the dime and DO something to ensure yourself a better future. Specifically you can get out of California, don't live between a major city and the nearest food and water supply, buy better doors and locks, get more long term food, secure your supplies of water.

In short my friend do something productive towards your future survival and you will feel better. This not only works for you but also for your family, my wife did not like me to talk about potential problems in "our" world, now she does not care because we have prep's. She also does not worry about being in the city at night because I carry. The country will fail to some degree, do what you can now.

YAAAY!! you've reached the point they want you at!

See, you have no chance of winning when you play their game, so you simply step outside that artificial box they created for you and play another game entirely.

Here's a few things for you to consider:
-every major civilization was destroyed by itself as a result of it's policies and success.
-You cant do anything to save "America" it's dead. Forget about it.
-You CAN do something to effect your LOCAL or STATE politics tho (not so much cali tho).
-You can effect your PERSONAL situation as well as that of your freinds



Good observation and advice.

Do you honestly think a well-stocked prepper would be ignored by the government (at whatever level, likely local) if 100 of his neighbors were going hungry? Do you think a fed order to "round up grub and water" would not filter down to the local level?



Until it gets local nobody is going to care what you have except your friends and family who are going to be hungry.


In this particular funk I'm in (and I appreciate all those who are trying to get me out of it!) I keep thinking that those who are WITH and FOR .gov will be in the best shape of all, in a socialist environment. They have a recognized clan they belong to, whose unspoken rule #1 is preservation of their group. They have been given moral authority. They are trained and well armed. And they are tasked with the "common good," not your individual good. And that is a conclusion I do not particularly enjoy reaching. As Etherial would say, "Now they're in your head, and they've got you thinking what they want you to think: Join the collective or surrender to the collective."



This is very true isn't it. In a socialist country the elite get the goods and services, that's how it has always been. What you need to do is to survive the transition time which may be 6 months or 6 years, but my money is on a year or two.

If you want to feel worse read "Enemies Foriegn and Domestic." Really depressed me.

Ethereal Killer
03-26-2012, 20:07
Bolster,
I'm with sam on this. Your individual preps are of no concern to the government in general. at worst, perhaps some invading troops might find a use for them, but I would'nt spend a lot of time worrying about that.

Frankly the fedgov just really has next to no power over your individual life. they spend their time worrying about societies not individuals. The same things you do everyday to keep the feds off your back are the same types of things you'd have to do to avoid any unnecessary attention ITSHTF... dont go stupid places, dont do stupid things and dont stay around stupid people.

As to worrying about the whole "america is dead" thing... dont. What it should do is the one thing you should have been doing all along. It should change your focus from what the TV tells you is important to the thing that actually effects you. The local level. You would be absolutely AMAZED what 15 people who have the same idea to do something like remove traffic cameras and organized as "citizens to reduce congestion and increase traffic flow" can accomplish with a few visits to a city council meeting and a couple hours a week.

It's pretty dramatic what you can do when you get a few like minded folks together and show up to a meeting and take control of it. Hell, I know a firing range that could be taken over at the annual meeting simply with 10 shooters showing up and voting in a new staff. almost no-one pays attention to local stuff so it's ripe for the picking, which is what the liberals have been doing for years.

so anyway, If you have to worry about something worry about your local stuff. it's easy to change and you can actually control it. Dont worry about the fedgov... they dont worry about you.

UneasyRider
03-26-2012, 20:13
Bolster,
I'm with sam on this. Your individual preps are of no concern to the government in general. at worst, perhaps some invading troops might find a use for them, but I would'nt spend a lot of time worrying about that.

Frankly the fedgov just really has next to no power over your individual life. they spend their time worrying about societies not individuals. The same things you do everyday to keep the feds off your back are the same types of things you'd have to do to avoid any unnecessary attention ITSHTF... dont go stupid places, dont do stupid things and dont stay around stupid people.

As to worrying about the whole "america is dead" thing... dont. What it should do is the one thing you should have been doing all along. It should change your focus from what the TV tells you is important to the thing that actually effects you. The local level. You would be absolutely AMAZED what 15 people who have the same idea to do something like remove traffic cameras and organized as "citizens to reduce congestion and increase traffic flow" can accomplish with a few visits to a city council meeting and a couple hours a week.

It's pretty dramatic what you can do when you get a few like minded folks together and show up to a meeting and take control of it. Hell, I know a firing range that could be taken over at the annual meeting simply with 10 shooters showing up and voting in a new staff. almost no-one pays attention to local stuff so it's ripe for the picking, which is what the liberals have been doing for years.

so anyway, If you have to worry about something worry about your local stuff. it's easy to change and you can actually control it. Dont worry about the fedgov... they dont worry about you.

Good post!

Bolster
03-27-2012, 00:22
Yep, good discussion. I can feel myself crawling out of my funk. Thanks.

dissthis
03-27-2012, 06:17
If the .gov would suggest, encourage etc all US citizens to be responsible for themselves...have food/water on hand, own and know how to use firearms, know basic first aid etc etc...the masses would be less dependent on the .gov....less likely to ever be invaded ("...rifle behind every blade of grass...") less work for .gov to do IF/WHEN SHTF.

BUT

that's not what the .gov wants...not sure why...doesn't really make sense to me...I guess its all about gaining and holding on to power...:upeyes:

Ethereal Killer
03-27-2012, 21:42
Yep, good discussion. I can feel myself crawling out of my funk. Thanks.

that was all the good news. you want me to give you the bad news? :whistling:

Bolster
03-27-2012, 21:51
that was all the good news. you want me to give you the bad news? :whistling:

LOL. Yes. Sock it to me.

bdcochran
03-27-2012, 22:42
From 18 November 1932 peasants from Ukraine were required to return extra grain they had previously earned for meeting their targets. State police and party brigades were sent into these regions to root out any food they could find.

Two days later, a law was passed forcing peasants who could not meet their grain quotas to surrender any livestock they had.

Eight days later, collective farms that failed to meet their quotas were placed on "blacklists" in which they were forced to surrender 15 times their quota. These farms were picked apart for any possible food by party activists. Blacklisted communes had no right to trade or to receive deliveries of any kind, and became death zones.

On 5 December 1932, Stalin's security chief presented the justification for terrorizing Ukrainian party officials to collect the grain. It was considered treason if anyone refused to do their part in grain requisitions for the state.

In November 1932 Ukraine was required to provide 1/3 of the grain collection of the entire Soviet Union. As Lazar Kaganovich put it, the Soviet state would fight "ferociously" to fulfill the plan.

In January 1933 Ukraine's borders were sealed in order to prevent Ukrainian peasants from fleeing to other republics. By the end of February 1933 approximately 190,000 Ukrainian peasants had been caught trying to flee Ukraine and were forced to return to their villages to starve.

OH IT COULD NEVER HAPPEN HERE. YOU ARE TOO SMALL FOR THE GOVERNMENT. THERE AREN'T ENOUGH TROOPS.
NOW YOU DO THE MATH!

kirgi08
03-28-2012, 03:02
Agreed.

I believe that the man power of the local/state/national gubermint will be stretched way too thin for them to start knocking on everyone's door that they think have more than a couple week's worth of food. (if it were a national event)

This is when TPTB will ask for "help",that said help will be the boys in blue.

The only major threat would come from the local/regional folks. In that case, having a good rep among the community would help your case infinitely. Granted, you will most likely be asked upon to perform a lot of tasks for the community but at least you wouldn't have a target on your head.

If it comes down ta your above,the term "ghost" or "mole comes ta mind.Either one goes ghost or one becomes a part of the machine and attempts ta "clog" it's wheels.

During Katrina many of the public servants saw to their own and that created a shortage of man power at the high point of the crisis. Only after departments from other states started showing up did they start confiscating on a larger scale. Now imagine all of the communities facing a major or even minor event at the same time and there is no one to send in for reinforcements...:dunno:

Imagine this on a national level.If folk are worried about takin care of their own[as I will be],the nation won't have the manpower ta coordinate a "food" grab.This leads me ta the above "UN" reference.

It's all hypothetical.

Look at it this way Bolster, its better to have and not need than to need and not have. If it came down to needing preps and you didn't prep because you played the hypothetical merry-go-round, how would you feel then? Probably a LOT worse than you do now. At least with the preps you have more options than if you were without.

The bottom line in this scenario is that you take care of you and yours and ta heck with everyone else.Folk have been warned and while their on "insert vacation spot here",we'll be on vacation while making sure we have enough for our loved ones.Gardening/canning and enjoying the simple life,going ta bed each night knowing my family will not go hungry.When this nations self destructive policies come ta fruition.'08.

Ethereal Killer
03-28-2012, 09:10
LOL. Yes. Sock it to me.

bad news is, you cant count on gun owners to do anything except comply with the law. see, there is a social stigma promulgated by the likes of the NRA et al for gun owners to be "law abiding" and shunning the outlaws.

Outlaws are the REAL hope of society, they live their lives on the fringes of society and are comfortable there. the problem arises when you try to make a "gun owner" into an "outlaw". they just dont have the skills and peer pressure often ensures they never get the skills either.

This little quirk means that otherwise well equipped people would just stay passive waiting for some mythical event "SHTF or TEOTWAWKI" when they finally get "permission" to start whacking "bad guys". .gov is well aware of this little loophole and exploits it fully. all they have to do to keep you passive is let you shoot your guns, worship as you please, keep you entertained with the TV and movies, and ensure you dont go hungry. Everything else is up for grabs.

The Australians lined up at collection points to turn in their "evil" guns and so will americans. In an effort to counter that, let me tell you that I've heard people vow to come to "your" town and shoot up those lines of fools :steamed:. nuf said there.

Anyway, the real point of this post is to make you think about what SHTF REALLY means. It'll most likely be an individual event with you by the side of a road somewhere, with that "last straw" on your back and a smoking gun in your hand. Ask yourself now, how many of your buddies will come running to your rescue and go shoot up "bad guys" with you while you count down your last days? I'll bet the answer is not many or none.

Effectively this means WTSHTF you are gonna be on your own, living as an outlaw. SO, this means that the best preps you can do for such an occasion is to learn the life of an outlaw and mitigate it's drawback as best as you can. Learn how it's done successfully and start thinking like a criminal, because that's exactly what you will be.

everyone wants to join the revolution, but no-one wants to be the guy that starts it. You will probably be all alone when the "revolution" starts.:crying:


so, In summation
-no-one is gonna stop the bad guys
-no-one will come to your rescue
-most who you think will help are gonna just comply... Steak, a woman and a warm house with a tv are strong motivators
-you will be labeled as and become a criminal, so learn to live and think like one.

Oh, one last gloomy tidbit for you... The information age is at it's peak right now. we have crested and are on the rapid downhill slide towards a dark age of ignorance, myth and fear. With information gathering and analysis coming of age, the GROWTH (note I said growth) of information freedom we've had over the last 15 years to expand and share our collective experiences is now at an end. Just as America reached it's peak and started it's downward slide in 2008, so now does the information age reach it's peak.

arclight610
03-28-2012, 09:28
bad news is, you cant count on gun owners to do anything except comply with the law. see, there is a social stigma promulgated by the likes of the NRA et al for gun owners to be "law abiding" and shunning the outlaws.

Outlaws are the REAL hope of society, they live their lives on the fringes of society and are comfortable there. the problem arises when you try to make a "gun owner" into an "outlaw". they just dont have the skills and peer pressure often ensures they never get the skills either.

This little quirk means that otherwise well equipped people would just stay passive waiting for some mythical event "SHTF or TEOTWAWKI" when they finally get "permission" to start whacking "bad guys". .gov is well aware of this little loophole and exploits it fully. all they have to do to keep you passive is let you shoot your guns, worship as you please, keep you entertained with the TV and movies, and ensure you dont go hungry. Everything else is up for grabs.

The Australians lined up at collection points to turn in their "evil" guns and so will americans. In an effort to counter that, let me tell you that I've heard people vow to come to "your" town and shoot up those lines of fools :steamed:. nuf said there.

Anyway, the real point of this post is to make you think about what SHTF REALLY means. It'll most likely be an individual event with you by the side of a road somewhere, with that "last straw" on your back and a smoking gun in your hand. Ask yourself now, how many of your buddies will come running to your rescue and go shoot up "bad guys" with you while you count down your last days? I'll bet the answer is not many or none.

Effectively this means WTSHTF you are gonna be on your own, living as an outlaw. SO, this means that the best preps you can do for such an occasion is to learn the life of an outlaw and mitigate it's drawback as best as you can. Learn how it's done successfully and start thinking like a criminal, because that's exactly what you will be.

everyone wants to join the revolution, but no-one wants to be the guy that starts it. You will probably be all alone when the "revolution" starts.:crying:


so, In summation
-no-one is gonna stop the bad guys
-no-one will come to your rescue
-most who you think will help are gonna just comply... Steak, a woman and a warm house with a tv are strong motivators
-you will be labeled as and become a criminal, so learn to live and think like one.

Oh, one last gloomy tidbit for you... The information age is at it's peak right now. we have crested and are on the rapid downhill slide towards a dark age of ignorance, myth and fear. With information gathering and analysis coming of age, the GROWTH (note I said growth) of freedom we've had over the last 15 years to expand and share our collective experiences is now at an end. Just as America reached it's peak and started it's downward slide in 2008, so now does the information age reach it's peak.

Your post hits the bullseye. The colonists in 1775 weren't exactly considered "law-abiding" by British rule.

Dexters
03-28-2012, 09:51
so, In summation
-no-one is gonna stop the bad guys
-no-one will come to your rescue
-most who you think will help are gonna just comply... Steak, a woman and a warm house with a tv are strong motivators
-you will be labeled as and become a criminal, so learn to live and think like one.



-those that do stand up will be made to look like some fringe nut
-freedom is a quaint idea
-rights only belong to the victim and society

We are in the pot and the gas is set for a slow boil.

Ethereal Killer
03-28-2012, 10:18
since I like to end on a high note...

one positive is that when governments institute more control, the black markets grow. this means that more and more people will occupy those fringe areas that criminals currently occupy. as that happens, that "criminal mindset" we are talking about becomes the prevailing mindset and thus could make 'questionable" things less of a reach for many folks.

quake
03-28-2012, 10:28
...The colonists in 1775 weren't exactly considered "law-abiding" by British rule.

True, but they certainly didn't "live their lives on the fringes of society" either; at least the organizers & leaders didn't. They were in the thick of society; business owners primarily, trying to protect/assert their liberty because of how it impacted their families and their businesses.

It's most likely that we just have different presumptions of the shtf catalyst or event. Sounds like you and EK are talking solely about tyranny-invoked shtf, and in that instance you could be completely right - and to be fair, that is the OP of this thread. But 'shtf' - and shtf preparation and shtf response - isn't limited to government tyranny. It can just as easily be (and much more often is) more local & even personal. Weather, job loss, robbery, whatever. And in those cases it isn't the outlaw that's coming to save the day; it's most-often incumbent the guy who happens to be standing there to save it for himself and for his family. And usually that doesn't involve any outlaw activity. Could it someday? Sure, we've all had that realization; but in reality, 99% of the time it doesn't involve anything outlaw, criminal, or even 'fringe' at all.

UneasyRider
03-28-2012, 19:25
bad news is, you cant count on gun owners to do anything except comply with the law. see, there is a social stigma promulgated by the likes of the NRA et al for gun owners to be "law abiding" and shunning the outlaws.

Outlaws are the REAL hope of society, they live their lives on the fringes of society and are comfortable there. the problem arises when you try to make a "gun owner" into an "outlaw". they just dont have the skills and peer pressure often ensures they never get the skills either.

This little quirk means that otherwise well equipped people would just stay passive waiting for some mythical event "SHTF or TEOTWAWKI" when they finally get "permission" to start whacking "bad guys". .gov is well aware of this little loophole and exploits it fully. all they have to do to keep you passive is let you shoot your guns, worship as you please, keep you entertained with the TV and movies, and ensure you dont go hungry. Everything else is up for grabs.

The Australians lined up at collection points to turn in their "evil" guns and so will americans. In an effort to counter that, let me tell you that I've heard people vow to come to "your" town and shoot up those lines of fools :steamed:. nuf said there.

Anyway, the real point of this post is to make you think about what SHTF REALLY means. It'll most likely be an individual event with you by the side of a road somewhere, with that "last straw" on your back and a smoking gun in your hand. Ask yourself now, how many of your buddies will come running to your rescue and go shoot up "bad guys" with you while you count down your last days? I'll bet the answer is not many or none.

Effectively this means WTSHTF you are gonna be on your own, living as an outlaw. SO, this means that the best preps you can do for such an occasion is to learn the life of an outlaw and mitigate it's drawback as best as you can. Learn how it's done successfully and start thinking like a criminal, because that's exactly what you will be.

everyone wants to join the revolution, but no-one wants to be the guy that starts it. You will probably be all alone when the "revolution" starts.:crying:


so, In summation
-no-one is gonna stop the bad guys
-no-one will come to your rescue
-most who you think will help are gonna just comply... Steak, a woman and a warm house with a tv are strong motivators
-you will be labeled as and become a criminal, so learn to live and think like one.

Oh, one last gloomy tidbit for you... The information age is at it's peak right now. we have crested and are on the rapid downhill slide towards a dark age of ignorance, myth and fear. With information gathering and analysis coming of age, the GROWTH (note I said growth) of information freedom we've had over the last 15 years to expand and share our collective experiences is now at an end. Just as America reached it's peak and started it's downward slide in 2008, so now does the information age reach it's peak.

This is an excellent post with a very unique, and most likely correct, point of view. One thing to do right now is learn some profesional trade craft.