Should police stop working with neighborhood watch groups?

[jack76590]

I realize police must in many cases respond to reports of suspicious activities. Therefore, I doubt if police can simply refuse to respond to calls from neighborhood watch members.

But should police actively work with neighborhood watch groups in both they formation and subsequent patrols?

Naturally, I have in mind the recent Zimmerman-Martin case.

And I realize that neighborhood watch groups might form even without police involvement and guidance.

But are problems resulting from the lack of police guidance worst than the current "seal of approval" that the police give neighborhood watch groups?

[janice6]

I think one isolated event should reshape the way the world operates.

[Mattz]

Negative. Police cooperation with neighborhoods and communities is one of the most important relationships we can have.

[Javelin]

They are both trying to accomplish the same mission. So a logical person could figure out the answer.

[Morris]

:rofl: Janice, you so funny!

[packsaddle]

law enforcement responds to calls for service, regardless if the callers are homeowners or business owners or neighborhood watchmen.

[Vigilant]

Perhaps add some form of screening applicants, rudimentary training, established SOP, and a liason officer with the PD or SO? Observe and report only, but with some training and accountability.

[blueiron]

Perhaps add some form of screening applicants, rudimentary training, established SOP, and a liason officer with the PD or SO? Observe and report only, but with some training and accountability.


That only likely make them agents of the State in court proceedings, with all the legal obstacles thereof.

Another problem is that look at the goofballs that get through the current background and applicant checks to become sworn employees; with far less resources and nothing more than a NCIC/III/State scan, more wannabes and those with the tendency to abuse power are going to flock to become Police Lite.

[Agent6-3/8]

Feeling a little cynical tonight sooo...


Neighborhood watches are in my experience a PITA. They'll have you out all night chasing shadows and stray cats. When you actually need a witness, nobody saw anything.

[larry_minn]

Yep they need to stop working with "watch" groups. Much less individuals. Instead these groups should be allowed to particpate in government surplus, grants etc for tools, equipment.
Heck if one case where facts are NOT public, what is every fact shows the "watch person" didn't do wrong. Its actually possible he did EVERYTHING right. (except fail to notice a attack till attacker got too close)

[Wonder140]

Your often going to have "that guy" no matter where you go. The simple fact remains that these programs are a benefit not a hindrance. We have gone to plenty of suspicious activity or persons calls from watch member's that turned out to be a home burglary in progress or a vehicle burglary in progress and caught them. Also received many other tips. Of course, we have also received plenty of bogus calls.

Encouraging the public to keep an eye out for each other is NOT a bad thing. At the same time, letting them know the proper thing to do is also important.

Telling people to stop doing so will make matters worse. It's already really bad in some area's where crime is very high and neighbors won't call Leo's if they see suspicious activity let alone tell Leo's what they saw. If we stop encouraging watch groups and other similar groups than area's like this will only grow bigger and bigger.

[Gallium]

I think one isolated event should reshape the way the world operates.


Unfortunately, this is mostly how it goes.



Columbine
Shoe Bomber
Miranda

I think Grossman also covers this in one of his works. To paraphrase, he said people will keep doing stupid **** if their demise is impersonal, indirect and slow versus directed, personal and rapid.



Or maybe I'm thinking of someone else...

[CAcop]

We haven't done "neighborhood watch in at least 15 years probably a decade or two longer than that.

The neighborhoods would get lazy and expect the police to knocking on doors collecting phone numbers and names. Then they wanted us to organize meetings. Then they expected updates on what was happening in the neighborhood. Then when someone leaves the neighborhood they want us to collect their contact info rather than going out nd doing it themselves.

Now we just tell people to go around to their neighbors and see who wants to get together. If enough do put the effort together we will send a Lt. out to talk to them about when to call, which line to call for what, etc. The public buys into it more and most importantly with ever shrinking budgets and staffing while calls for service go through the roof we are not tying up countless hours of officer's times trying to organize things for them.

If the city wants an old school 1966 neighborhood watch they need to hire more cops. Probably 5-10 more minimum.

[kenpoprofessor]

Why is it that many cops feel most other citizens are not capable of policing themselves? That other citizens are not "as qualified" to do a similar job? Police have no duty to protect, SCOTUS has ruled on this many times. The only reason this upsets many cops is it would put them out of a job if they left it to the citizens themselves to take responsibility for their own welfare and safety.

Same reason they don't make drugs legal, too many jobs and too much money from seizures at risk to give it up.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[m2hmghb]

Why is it that many cops feel most other citizens are not capable of policing themselves? That other citizens are not "as qualified" to do a similar job? Police have no duty to protect, SCOTUS has ruled on this many times. The only reason this upsets many cops is it would put them out of a job if they left it to the citizens themselves to take responsibility for their own welfare and safety.

Same reason they don't make drugs legal, too many jobs and too much money from seizures at risk to give it up.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

I see you're as ignorant as always Clyde. Most police officers I know don't like to see it happen because of the fact that civilians have no protection against lawsuits, or against false arrest, and they do not know the laws. Can you tell me how many laws in your state there are? I know in mine there are thousands. In addition to that you have to account for a person being untrained in unarmed combat, or of making a lethal strike during an altercation. There are literally dozens of other reasons I can think of, but I won't waste my time listing them since I have never seen you change your mind.

[Cav]

We help watch groups, and even have our own citizens academy. For my city we educate and support them. We help with block parties. We even have equipment we can issue out to them.

Mr Z did nothing wrong with the following of the teen. Byt what we know the teen was not from the area. The teen was talking on a head set. The ten went to places in the gated community to "take shelter" from the rain. The route the kid took was not the most direct route to his dads, girlfriends. By all acounts the teen should have stood out. Granted if he was a criminal there to steal, most would just not care only file a report after things were stolen.

One thing I find in my area is athe active watched area's, dont have many calls once set up, and tend to help with the most arrests from call ins.

One thing I think most officers hate is being dispatched to a call, and the caller does not have good suspect information or location info, and the officer waste time looking for who knows what, vs real time info.

Some PD's wont send officers unless people are following in a vehicle or have eyes on.

[Agent6-3/8]

Why is it that many cops feel most other citizens are not capable of policing themselves? That other citizens are not "as qualified" to do a similar job? Police have no duty to protect, SCOTUS has ruled on this many times. The only reason this upsets many cops is it would put them out of a job if they left it to the citizens themselves to take responsibility for their own welfare and safety.

Same reason they don't make drugs legal, too many jobs and too much money from seizures at risk to give it up.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

What led you to this belief? I've personally never met or worked with a street cop that has done anything but encourage citizens to protect themselves. I was at the range a few weeks ago and found the cheif of our city PD spending his Saturday teaching a CCW class. He's jsut one of several of our local LEO's that do this.

As far as neighborhood watches go, I'm all for community policing and encouraging people to be aware and call stuff in. Organized watches in my experience however, tend to bring out the whackers and bust bodies that tend to overstep their authority and act like the nirghborhood Stasi.

As far as you last comment about drugs. Cops can't make the laws, just enforce them. Take those issues up with your elected officials.

[scottydl]

Perhaps add some form of screening applicants, rudimentary training, established SOP, and a liason officer with the PD or SO? Observe and report only, but with some training and accountability.

Then the PD becomes accountable for their actions. The groups or victims could claim "failure to train" if something goes wrong. I don't think any PD wants that liability.

Why is it that many cops feel most other citizens are not capable of policing themselves?

Because they're NOT as they prove over and over again. I get called daily to raise/discipline other peoples' unsupervised children, mediate their civil disputes, and attempt to teach them how to be decent to each other... something we all should remember from kindergarten. And that doesn't address any of the actual criminal law violations we also enforce. I would LOVE if people would be able to handle their own families and basic daily affairs without my involvement, quite frankly.

[kenpoprofessor]

Then the PD becomes accountable for their actions. The groups or victims could claim "failure to train" if something goes wrong. I don't think any PD wants that liability.



Because they're NOT as they prove over and over again. I get called daily to raise/discipline other peoples' unsupervised children, mediate their civil disputes, and attempt to teach them how to be decent to each other... something we all should remember from kindergarten. And that doesn't address any of the actual criminal law violations we also enforce. I would LOVE if people would be able to handle their own families and basic daily affairs without my involvement, quite frankly.

You see, that's the problem. The police have constantly reminded people that they can just "call the police" when they have a problem. Now, most people abdicate their responsibility to you, it's what the police told them to do.

If Police Chiefs and Sheriffs tell people that maybe, just maybe, they need to take responsibility for themselves, then maybe we can get back to a time when Police were Peace Officers and not LEOs.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[kenpoprofessor]

What led you to this belief? I've personally never met or worked with a street cop that has done anything but encourage citizens to protect themselves. I was at the range a few weeks ago and found the cheif of our city PD spending his Saturday teaching a CCW class. He's jsut one of several of our local LEO's that do this.

As far as neighborhood watches go, I'm all for community policing and encouraging people to be aware and call stuff in. Organized watches in my experience however, tend to bring out the whackers and bust bodies that tend to overstep their authority and act like the nirghborhood Stasi.

As far as you last comment about drugs. Cops can't make the laws, just enforce them. Take those issues up with your elected officials.


Read the post again, did I say "ALL"? No, I said many. I know a lot of good decent cops, one I call a good friend. He is constantly reminding his coworkers of something called the "Bill of Rights".

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Cav]

You see, that's the problem. The police have constantly reminded people that they can just "call the police" when they have a problem. Now, most people abdicate their responsibility to you, it's what the police told them to do.

If Police Chiefs and Sheriffs tell people that maybe, just maybe, they need to take responsibility for themselves, then maybe we can get back to a time when Police were Peace Officers and not LEOs.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Sound like you need to move.

Where I live things are not like were you live, and seem to be like what you dream about.

[Detectorist]

Kenpo guy, I don't know if I really understand your post. You want folks to take responsibility for their own safety?

We have many classes of folks in this country where that will not happen, such as most women, children, elderly, disabled, etc.

The best we can do is to teach avoidance of crimes or mitigation of crimes.

99% of folks do not have the training, desire, or mental or emotional aptitude to be a cop.

And just because someone is armed doesn't mean they know how to use a gun or know when to use it, or is willing to use it.

[kenpoprofessor]

Sound like you need to move.

Where I live things are not like were you live, and seem to be like what you dream about.

It's how I grew up in W. Texas, so I know of what you speak. Wished the cops in major cities would take a much more "hands off" approach and simply tell people, we're not your friggin' babysitters.





Kenpo guy, I don't know if i understand your post. You want folks to take responsibility for their own safety.

We have many classes of folks in this country where that will not happen, such as most women, children, elderly, disabled, etc.

The best we can do is to teach avoidance of crimes or mitigation of crimes.

99% of folks do not have the training, desire, or mental aptitude to be a cop.

And just because someone is armed doesn't mean they know how to use a gun or know when to use it, or is willing to use it.


Yep, and this is a typical response from a cop. That's the argument democrats use.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[ateamer]

Neighborhood Watch usually starts with enthusiasm, and a lot of people show up for the initial meeting. For a week afterward, a number or residents in the area will call and repoet everything they see. After that, a couple people will remain diligent about reporting activity. But after the first month or so has passed, we'd be lucky if anyone would call to report an in-progress homicide.

Have a pretty good gum-carrying kung pao day.

[msu_grad_121]

As was posted in the other thread which this is obviously related to, "what do we tell people to do if they see something they feel is suspicious?" I see neighborhood watch groups as a natural extension of that. Now, I'll admit that it tends to draw whackers, posers and wannabes, but I'd personally rather have too much information than not enough.

As for kenpo guy, I hate to admit it, but if the citizenry could prove they can keep themselves in line without the help of sworn police personnel, they would put the police in their area out of a job. Seeing as that hasn't happened yet...Well, I'll let you do the math. And seriously, how did this thread take a left turn into the legalization of drugs?

[scottydl]

imply tell people, we're not your friggin' babysitters.

Many officers (myself included) at my agency tell people this ALL THE TIME. It doesn't work. Any other ideas?

[msu_grad_121]

Many officers (myself included) at my agency tell people this ALL THE TIME. It doesn't work. Any other ideas?

Sharpen your pencil, methinks he's about to drop some knowledge on your ***! :upeyes:

[m2hmghb]

Sharpen your pencil, methinks he's about to drop some knowledge on your ***! :upeyes:

Knowledge I doubt. Opinions are more likely.

[merlynusn]

Many officers (myself included) at my agency tell people this ALL THE TIME. It doesn't work. Any other ideas?

:agree:

We say it. They call back the next day for the same thing. We tell them the same thing over again. Then we get complained on for not fixing their problem to their satisfaction.

[Detectorist]

It's how I grew up in W. Texas, so I know of what you speak. Wished the cops in major cities would take a much more "hands off" approach and simply tell people, we're not your friggin' babysitters.








Yep, and this is a typical response from a cop. That's the argument democrats use.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Being called a Cop is a compliment. So thank you. I still don't think I understand your point. Should more people take responsibility for their own security? Yes! Tell us what the average joe can do!

[Bill Lumberg]

Calls from neighborhood watch members are no different than calls from any other citizen. If they have previous calls, those calls may have added to or detracted from their credibility, but it's still just a call. Watch. Remember details. Make Phone Call. No Pursuit Whackers.

I realize police must in many cases respond to reports of suspicious activities. Therefore, I doubt if police can simply refuse to respond to calls from neighborhood watch members.

But should police actively work with neighborhood watch groups in both they formation and subsequent patrols?

Naturally, I have in mind the recent Zimmerman-Martin case.

And I realize that neighborhood watch groups might form even without police involvement and guidance.

But are problems resulting from the lack of police guidance worst than the current "seal of approval" that the police give neighborhood watch groups?

[kenpoprofessor]

AsAs for kenpo guy, I hate to admit it, but if the citizenry could prove they can keep themselves in line without the help of sworn police personnel, they would put the police in their area out of a job. Seeing as that hasn't happened yet...Well, I'll let you do the math. And seriously, how did this thread take a left turn into the legalization of drugs?

Gosh, I don't know, maybe train a bunch of them yourself, that's what the tax dollars are paying for. Your department could train many of the people in the community to do neighborhood watch programs, the ins and outs of the law, and what weapons (whether lethal or less lethal) would be most effective and legal for that environment. Those people could in turn, train others. Eventually, patrols wouldn't be needed, only calls for burglary and thefts.

Teach a man to fish type of thing, it's not real hard to understand. At first, it would be an adjunct program, eventually, patrols would slow, people would have to do it themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Sharky7]

Gosh, I don't know, maybe train a bunch of them yourself, that's what the tax dollars are paying for. Your department could train many of the people in the community to do neighborhood watch programs, the ins and outs of the law, and what weapons (whether lethal or less lethal) would be most effective and legal for that environment. Those people could in turn, train others. Eventually, patrols wouldn't be needed, only calls for burglary and thefts.

Teach a man to fish type of thing, it's not real hard to understand. At first, it would be an adjunct program, eventually, patrols would slow, people would have to do it themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Thanks for solving the Criminal Justice problems for America!

Maybe you can take a vacation to North/South Korea and fix everything over there too :wavey:

Can you solve our world's energy problems as well?

[msu_grad_121]

Gosh, I don't know, maybe train a bunch of them yourself, that's what the tax dollars are paying for. Your department could train many of the people in the community to do neighborhood watch programs, the ins and outs of the law, and what weapons (whether lethal or less lethal) would be most effective and legal for that environment. Those people could in turn, train others. Eventually, patrols wouldn't be needed, only calls for burglary and thefts.

Teach a man to fish type of thing, it's not real hard to understand. At first, it would be an adjunct program, eventually, patrols would slow, people would have to do it themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

So who takes responsibility if/when one of these trained (and apparently armed) neighborhood watch persons injures or kills someone? As litigious as society is with properly screened, trained and equipped fully sworn police officers, it'd be a lawyers dream to have every whacker in the world armed and blessed with carte blanche authority from their local police department.

Not to mention the fact that in your scenario, every member of the neighborhood watch crosses the line from "concerned citizen" to "government agent," and that changes the game entirely. Do you know the federal, state and local laws on when a government agent has reasonable suspicion or probable cause to contact/detain/arrest? And those laws change yearly.

All of this ignores that most of the people in this world don't WANT to be responsible for their own safety, let alone that of their neighbors. In a perfect world, we wouldn't be needed, but we don't live in a perfect world, and your scenario is pie-in-the-sky foolishness.

[Sharky7]

Just break the wrist, and walk away. Break the wrist; walk away.

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/rex_kwon_do_1.jpg

[Hack]

:soap:In some small villages you find people that give a damn. Unfortunately too many people are of an entitlement mentality. They want police protection, as many government benefits as they can get, and then some. Some are kind of like rats in a maze, in that you could use a system of reward and consequence and they would thrive in it; not giving a damn about the other guy, and only caring for themselves.

Maybe, I'm just too jaded. But, it seems people in some areas of the country do not want any responsibility any longer, but to sit at home in their jammies with fricking hands out.

[Bill Lumberg]

Not a lot of training necessary except what not to do. It's not a neighborhood follow program. It's not a neighborhood shoot program. It's not a neighborhood-I-got-my-permit-so-I-can-bethepopo-program. Observe. Determine if this is something the police should know about. If so, call. In more traditional communities of the past, the grapevine of folks across the neighborhood that knew each other and them calling one another helped a lot. Rare to find that these days.

[Bren]

I realize police must in many cases respond to reports of suspicious activities. Therefore, I doubt if police can simply refuse to respond to calls from neighborhood watch members.

But should police actively work with neighborhood watch groups in both they formation and subsequent patrols?

Naturally, I have in mind the recent Zimmerman-Martin case.

And I realize that neighborhood watch groups might form even without police involvement and guidance.

But are problems resulting from the lack of police guidance worst than the current "seal of approval" that the police give neighborhood watch groups?

I don't see a reason that would call neighborhood watch into doubt at all. Maybe one guy in one neighborhood made a situation a little worse, but that amounts to nothing in the big picture.

[Officer X]

Gosh, I don't know, maybe train a bunch of them yourself, that's what the tax dollars are paying for. Your department could train many of the people in the community to do neighborhood watch programs, the ins and outs of the law, and what weapons (whether lethal or less lethal) would be most effective and legal for that environment. Those people could in turn, train others. Eventually, patrols wouldn't be needed, only calls for burglary and thefts.

Teach a man to fish type of thing, it's not real hard to understand. At first, it would be an adjunct program, eventually, patrols would slow, people would have to do it themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

It's great that in every thread you post in, you have the answer to how everything should be done.

Have a great gun carryin' krav maga day

[Officer X]

The biggest benefit of our neighborhood watch program is getting people who've lived next door to each other for years who have never spoken, to meet each other and socialize a bit.

They learn about their neighbors and what is normal instead of coming home from work and hiding in the house. I must be odd that I know all my neighbors and we often talk and get together.

It's frustrating when you've had a burglary spree in town and as officers are doing their neighborhood canvas, people are telling them about the person they saw walking around or car in the driveway during the time period the burg. happened. They just didn't think anything about it at the time and didn't call the PD to have it checked.

[kenpoprofessor]

Just break the wrist, and walk away. Break the wrist; walk away.

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/rex_kwon_do_1.jpg

Funny, you resort to snarky pictures and quips to make you feel better. Shame isn't it?

And yea, I do have some solutions for other problems. Problem is, people like many here who have been at the job for so long they've forgotten what it's like to be just the common citizen.

There was a time before SWAT, where cops actually did their job and kept the peace, not just make arrests and let the courts settle it. The promulgation of "just call the police" attitude has made the majority of folks complacent in their responsibilities, much like the "everyone has to have a trophy" soccer moms. Police now feel they need to interject and make arrests for everything when most times, they need to just "keep the peace".

Every day I see some Sheriff or Police Chief telling people to just be a good witness, don't get involved, let the police handle it, they're trained to handle those situations, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They've made people too damn lazy to take responsibility for themselves or their loved ones.

Clyde

[Bill Lumberg]

Excellent.

Just break the wrist, and walk away. Break the wrist; walk away.

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/rex_kwon_do_1.jpg

[itslucky]

neighborhood watch!

http://www.stickdeath.com/watch.htm

:dancingbanana::dancingbanana:

[msu_grad_121]

Funny, you resort to snarky pictures and quips to make you feel better. Shame isn't it?

And yea, I do have some solutions for other problems. Problem is, people like many here who have been at the job for so long they've forgotten what it's like to be just the common citizen.

There was a time before SWAT, where cops actually did their job and kept the peace, not just make arrests and let the courts settle it. The promulgation of "just call the police" attitude has made the majority of folks complacent in their responsibilities, much like the "everyone has to have a trophy" soccer moms. Police now feel they need to interject and make arrests for everything when most times, they need to just "keep the peace".

Every day I see some Sheriff or Police Chief telling people to just be a good witness, don't get involved, let the police handle it, they're trained to handle those situations, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They've made people too damn lazy to take responsibility for themselves or their loved ones.

Clyde

Jeez, it must be frustrating to be so much smarter than everyone around you...

[Sharky7]

Funny, you resort to snarky pictures and quips to make you feel better. Shame isn't it?

And yea, I do have some solutions for other problems. Problem is, people like many here who have been at the job for so long they've forgotten what it's like to be just the common citizen.

There was a time before SWAT, where cops actually did their job and kept the peace, not just make arrests and let the courts settle it. The promulgation of "just call the police" attitude has made the majority of folks complacent in their responsibilities, much like the "everyone has to have a trophy" soccer moms. Police now feel they need to interject and make arrests for everything when most times, they need to just "keep the peace".

Every day I see some Sheriff or Police Chief telling people to just be a good witness, don't get involved, let the police handle it, they're trained to handle those situations, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They've made people too damn lazy to take responsibility for themselves or their loved ones.

Clyde

Lighten up, the pictures are to make people smile. Maybe not you, but others...:supergrin:

Your comments are either very naive or almost like you are playing an internet character. Every time another poster shows you logic you ignore it.

[RussP]

I realize police must in many cases respond to reports of suspicious activities. Therefore, I doubt if police can simply refuse to respond to calls from neighborhood watch members.

But should police actively work with neighborhood watch groups in both they formation and subsequent patrols?

Naturally, I have in mind the recent Zimmerman-Martin case.

And I realize that neighborhood watch groups might form even without police involvement and guidance.

But are problems resulting from the lack of police guidance worst than the current "seal of approval" that the police give neighborhood watch groups?Negative. Police cooperation with neighborhoods and communities is one of the most important relationships we can have.I agree, Mattz.

Getting the neighborhoods of today to ask for and accept the cooperation is something else.

[steveksux]

law enforcement responds to calls for service, regardless if the callers are homeowners or business owners or neighborhood watchmen.
Even if some neighborhood watchmen take it a little too far....

http://www.brightestyoungthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/06_watchmen1_lg.jpg

Randy

[kenpoprofessor]

Jeez, it must be frustrating to be so much smarter than everyone around you...

Yes, it is frustrating at times, but this isn't one. :yawn:

I also noticed you prefer to take shots, drop a grenade post here and there, but not actually come through with any solutinos :wow: :wavey:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[kenpoprofessor]

Lighten up, the pictures are to make people smile. Maybe not you, but others...:supergrin:

Your comments are either very naive or almost like you are playing an internet character. Every time another poster shows you logic you ignore it.

Logic, what logic? There's not much in this thread other than me and a couple of others that are saying something similar.

I don't play a "character" on the internet, I actually believe the opinions I post unless I specify it's sarcasm or satire. :shocked:

Clyde

[RussP]

Okay, Clyde...Why is it that many cops feel most other citizens are not capable of policing themselves? That other citizens are not "as qualified" to do a similar job? Police have no duty to protect, SCOTUS has ruled on this many times. The only reason this upsets many cops is it would put them out of a job if they left it to the citizens themselves to take responsibility for their own welfare and safety.

Same reason they don't make drugs legal, too many jobs and too much money from seizures at risk to give it up...You see, that's the problem. The police have constantly reminded people that they can just "call the police" when they have a problem. Now, most people abdicate their responsibility to you, it's what the police told them to do.

If Police Chiefs and Sheriffs tell people that maybe, just maybe, they need to take responsibility for themselves, then maybe we can get back to a time when Police were Peace Officers and not LEOs...Read the post again, did I say "ALL"? No, I said many. I know a lot of good decent cops, one I call a good friend. He is constantly reminding his coworkers of something called the "Bill of Rights"...Clyde, then can you quantify your "many", please?

And your 'good friend', what is his "constantly" in, "constantly reminding his coworkers of something called the "Bill of Rights"?" Have you asked him if it is one officer, two, three officers who need reminding, or all those he's responsible for? Don't you agree that putting actual numbers into a story is really important to a complete understanding.

Back to the top...When you say cops feel that people are not capable of policing themselves, what do you mean by "policing"? I ask because in the next sentence you say "not "as qualified" to do a similar job?" I'll let you answer those two questions, clarify what you mean, before I go further.

A lot of times suggestions from LE to "call the police" come in the wake of someone "taking the law into their own hands," acting as judge, jury and executioner. The cops I know and have known over the last 30 years have always advocated people having personable responsibility. It's when they don't, when irresponsibility takes over and conflicts arise that outside intervention is required. Too often today people try resolving their issues with violence, thus violating the law.

That's what's confusing about your posts. You don't want police telling people to call them if they have a problem, but you want police to be "peace officers" responsible for maintaining peace. How can that happen?It's how I grew up in W. Texas, so I know of what you speak. Wished the cops in major cities would take a much more "hands off" approach and simply tell people, we're not your friggin' babysitters.Kenpo guy, I don't know if I really understand your post. You want folks to take responsibility for their own safety?

We have many classes of folks in this country where that will not happen, such as most women, children, elderly, disabled, etc.

The best we can do is to teach avoidance of crimes or mitigation of crimes.

99% of folks do not have the training, desire, or mental or emotional aptitude to be a cop.

And just because someone is armed doesn't mean they know how to use a gun or know when to use it, or is willing to use it.Yep, and this is a typical response from a cop. That's the argument democrats use.When you tell people in major cities to settle their own problems, don't call the cops, are you expecting amicable resolutions? Exactly where on the problem continuum would you draw the line between don't call the cops and call the cops? Is Dectorist's post typical? It sounds familiar. It's also good.Gosh, I don't know, maybe train a bunch of them yourself, that's what the tax dollars are paying for. Your department could train many of the people in the community to do neighborhood watch programs, the ins and outs of the law, and what weapons (whether lethal or less lethal) would be most effective and legal for that environment. Those people could in turn, train others. Eventually, patrols wouldn't be needed, only calls for burglary and thefts.

Teach a man to fish type of thing, it's not real hard to understand. At first, it would be an adjunct program, eventually, patrols would slow, people would have to do it themselves. So who takes responsibility if/when one of these trained (and apparently armed) neighborhood watch persons injures or kills someone? As litigious as society is with properly screened, trained and equipped fully sworn police officers, it'd be a lawyers dream to have every whacker in the world armed and blessed with carte blanche authority from their local police department.

Not to mention the fact that in your scenario, every member of the neighborhood watch crosses the line from "concerned citizen" to "government agent," and that changes the game entirely. Do you know the federal, state and local laws on when a government agent has reasonable suspicion or probable cause to contact/detain/arrest? And those laws change yearly.

All of this ignores that most of the people in this world don't WANT to be responsible for their own safety, let alone that of their neighbors. In a perfect world, we wouldn't be needed, but we don't live in a perfect world, and your scenario is pie-in-the-sky foolishness.Before throwing tax dollars at people, you need to know they want to do what's necessary to achieve the end result. First you need to educate people, reeducate people that they can be and should be responsible for their well being and their neighbor's well being.Funny, you resort to snarky pictures and quips to make you feel better. Shame isn't it?

And yea, I do have some solutions for other problems. Problem is, people like many here who have been at the job for so long they've forgotten what it's like to be just the common citizen.

There was a time before SWAT, where cops actually did their job and kept the peace, not just make arrests and let the courts settle it. The promulgation of "just call the police" attitude has made the majority of folks complacent in their responsibilities, much like the "everyone has to have a trophy" soccer moms. Police now feel they need to interject and make arrests for everything when most times, they need to just "keep the peace".

Every day I see some Sheriff or Police Chief telling people to just be a good witness, don't get involved, let the police handle it, they're trained to handle those situations, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They've made people too damn lazy to take responsibility for themselves or their loved ones. You lay the blame for the decline in personal responsibility on law enforcement. Are you laying the complete responsibility on law enforcement?

[msu_grad_121]

Yes, it is frustrating at times, but this isn't one. :yawn:

I also noticed you prefer to take shots, drop a grenade post here and there, but not actually come through with any solutinos :wow: :wavey:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Firstly, look back into my posts in this thread. I said, and still say that I think there's nothing wrong with the current system of neighborhood watch groups. Obviously you do, and you're entitled to your opinion. But you still haven't answered my question regarding who takes responsibility if or when one of your citizen patrols, armed and blessed by the police, injures or kills someone? The police who authorized them? The citizen themself? What about keeping citizen patrols current on the laws? Whose responsibility is that? Any answers at all?

And yet you implicitly demand I give you some sort of solution? Very interesting...Wait, not interesting, I meant to say ignorant. :wavey: :supergrin: :upeyes:

[Morris]

No capes!

[Hack]

No capes!

Does that include spandex tights? :devilish:

[M1Garand]

Police should continue to work with neighborhood watch groups. It is a continued community outreach with the watch groups as additional eyes and ears. You cannot let one sour grape ruins the whole meal.

[Hack]

Taxi drivers are probably another good resource for eyes; if they are not involved in some other nonsense.

[msu_grad_121]

Yes, it is frustrating at times, but this isn't one. :yawn:

I also noticed you prefer to take shots, drop a grenade post here and there, but not actually come through with any solutinos :wow: :wavey:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

And I assume you refer to my posts as "grenades" cuz they blow your bull**** out of the water, huh? :rofl:

[Morris]

Does that include spandex tights?

You cannot buy me enough bleach to wash out my mind's eye right now . . .

[Hack]

You cannot buy me enough bleach to wash out my mind's eye right now . . .

:scared: